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Demoulius
26-03-2012, 22:36
Hello gents. I did a search on this and allthough I got 200 topics back I couldnt find any in the first couple of pages that specificly mentioned the BSB... Ive overheard some people at my local store saying that the counts dont need it. Infact they were saying its pretty useless for them :confused:

Now I dont have my rulebook around (should be but I cant find it :wtf:) but you lose models to unstable right? IIRC you make a LD test and the amount that you fail by is the amount of models you lose? Most undead units have such a low LD that even skaven seem brave if your just looking at the characteristics but I can see there beeing merit in rolling excessivly high LD tests like double digit numbers and the like :shifty:

Losing 1 wound less as a standard rule is also pretty nice when you factor in elite (and expensive) things like blood knights, black knights, any of the monstrous infantry etc....

For 25 points I dont see it beeing a bad investment.....at all! Am I missing something here?

tmarichards
26-03-2012, 22:45
Don't forget than even though it only costs 25pts, the character gives away an extra 100vps if he dies in combat.

VC also don't take the ld test after losing combat, they just lose a wound for every point of combat res they lost by.

Overall, I don't think it's worthwhile.

Demoulius
26-03-2012, 23:02
Oh I see you dont take the LD test, just lose wounds by the difference you lost.....

So uh...it basicly just does the "you lose 1 wound less then normally" thing? Yea thats pretty pricey for 25 pts.....

DaemonReign
27-03-2012, 00:11
I think the point of the VC BSB is basically the Magic Banner that Battle Standard Bearer can carry due to being the "BSB". Those 25pts you pay just 'unlock' that access.
Beats me if it's worth it though. In the previous book you could Regen and all sorts of cool stuff, it's a bit different now (+1 ToHit for all Wights is always there though).

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 00:21
If you're taking a model able to become BSB anyway, and you keep it in the vicinity of your own elites or multi-wound models, it's not all that bad for 25 pts. VC don't need it at all though, but if you save 2 graveguard from crumbling with it, you pretty much got the points back already.

Gaargod
27-03-2012, 01:16
It's a 'do I have 25pts spare at the very end' choice.

Odds are, it'll pay for itself. +1 combat res and -1 from crumble is worth 25pts, especially if you're using pricier units. But it's not strictly necessary either, because that's all it'll do.

If you can fit in it without dropping something important, take it. More importantly, don't take a vampire *just* to take the BSB. If you were already gonna take a vampire, especially one with good protection, then use it. You can still use magic items and bloodlines if you don't take a magic banner, and it doesn't hinder you at all.

Balerion
27-03-2012, 05:50
If you're taking a model able to become BSB anyway, and you keep it in the vicinity of your own elites or multi-wound models, it's not all that bad for 25 pts. VC don't need it at all though, but if you save 2 graveguard from crumbling with it, you pretty much got the points back already.
As alluded to earlier, the 25 points is only the cost of the upgrade -- the character itself is usually another 100 at least. So for that ~125 points you could have just taken 10 more Grave Guard (which may be able to outperform the character, depending on formation and combat longevity).


I think the point of the VC BSB is basically the Magic Banner that Battle Standard Bearer can carry due to being the "BSB". Those 25pts you pay just 'unlock' that access.
Beats me if it's worth it though. In the previous book you could Regen and all sorts of cool stuff, it's a bit different now (+1 ToHit for all Wights is always there though).
However, their own unit Standard Bearer can afford that upgrade, making the BSB unnecessary.

A Wight King BSB is pretty cool for Blood and Glory games, since Undead are usually in tough during that scenario. Overall, though, the BSB isn't a key inclusion in any VC armylist. I saw a brilliant suggestion by someone recently (wish I could remember their username to give proper credit where it's due) where they proposed that Undead BSBs should work in reverse of a normal BSB by forcing enemy units within 12" to reroll all passed Ld tests. That would have been great armybook design (although it might have to have been priced at 50 points).

T10
27-03-2012, 06:27
What's not to like? It's not as if the Undead never take Leadership tests - the BSB gives you the ability to re-roll Ld tests for marching, for quick reforms and for combat reforms. Add to that any number of inconvenient special effects that call for a Ld tests.

The "Suffer one less wound" from break tests makes it a lot less risky to commit multiple units to a combat against tough enemies. You still need to play it smart, but you get a greater margin of error (plain bad luck will have less impact!)

Whether you want to use a Wight King or a Vampire is a matter of personal taste. The Wight King is a great option if you don't like to take risks; the Vampire is great if you want to go over the top with this.

-T10

datalink7
27-03-2012, 06:51
As alluded to earlier, the 25 points is only the cost of the upgrade -- the character itself is usually another 100 at least. So for that ~125 points you could have just taken 10 more Grave Guard (which may be able to outperform the character, depending on formation and combat longevity).


However, their own unit Standard Bearer can afford that upgrade, making the BSB unnecessary.

A Wight King BSB is pretty cool for Blood and Glory games, since Undead are usually in tough during that scenario. Overall, though, the BSB isn't a key inclusion in any VC armylist. I saw a brilliant suggestion by someone recently (wish I could remember their username to give proper credit where it's due) where they proposed that Undead BSBs should work in reverse of a normal BSB by forcing enemy units within 12" to reroll all passed Ld tests. That would have been great armybook design (although it might have to have been priced at 50 points).

I agree that a BSB isn't of the same importance in Vampire Counts as other armies, and is hardly required. However, I don't tend to look at it as adding the cost of the character in there. If I get a BSB, I'm not adding a whole character for the option. I take it if I happen to have some extra points and a character I'm already taking. So you can't add in the cost of the character if I was going to take that character regardless of whether I make him a BSB or not. The BSB is an additional upgrade to a character I was already taking and already alloted points towards.

T10
27-03-2012, 07:38
As alluded to earlier, the 25 points is only the cost of the upgrade -- the character itself is usually another 100 at least. So for that ~125 points you could have just taken 10 more Grave Guard (which may be able to outperform the character, depending on formation and combat longevity).


10 Grave Guard do not fill the same role as a BSB; it is a bit much to expect them to "perform" on the same level.

However, by that logic you don't really need magic or cavalry or any kind of variety in your army: Just more Grave Guard and a minimal-cost General.

-T10

Wesser
27-03-2012, 13:26
I'll often include the "fear bomb" vampire to be with my main skelly block.

With Fear Incarnate, aura of dark majesty and backed up by the screaming banner in the unit the enemy will usually fail the LD test. Throw in Glittering scales and he's hit only on a 6. This means he's quite well protected since he's unlikely to get struck down in combat and unlikely to crumble away with his unit. Ofc with all these upgrades he comes to well over 200 pts., but since he has the triple job of 1) making my skellies useful in combat, 2)being my support wizard and 3)my bsb the outlay actually is reasonable.....and he has yet to die.


Since even ordinary vamps are jack-of-all-trades it make sense to spend on them..and to protect them.

In that context 25 pts (and the risk of losing 100pts to the enemy if he dies) for +1CR, crumble radius and the benefit in Blood and Glory is always worth it for me.


I just dont take the wight king, but if you for some reason have one, he'll suddenly need some protection not to give away the extra 100pts... soooo I'm prolly keeping it on my tooled-up vamp if I take it

Symrivven
27-03-2012, 15:43
Do you really think this setup is worth its points considering that for it to be effective you have to steer it away from units that are unaffected by fear (there are a lot of them). And do you really need the banner on it?

Wesser
27-03-2012, 15:53
Do you really think this setup is worth its points considering that for it to be effective you have to steer it away from units that are unaffected by fear (there are a lot of them). And do you really need the banner on it?

Ofc the fear bomb aint worth it against daemons and tomb kings, and most other armies have at most one ItP/frenzied unit on the board if any.

It has worked very well for me so far. As for the BsB. I already have a model, which is fairly well protected (most enemies hitting him on a 6). And the BsB in my view is still worth 25 pts, so might as well give itto the well-protected guy which I havent lost yet

Sloppyjayman
27-03-2012, 16:52
I use a Vampire BSB with the flaming banner, mounted, barding, HA, S, Lance, Redfury. I generally run him in a unit of 6 Blood Knights with the Banner of the Blood Keep (4+ ward save to shooting). He helps with providing the unit with flaming attacks, and 4 S7 attacks with Redfury.

The other reason I run him is because sometimes, against non-shooting armies like WoC or Deamons, I throw him in my 40 man block of ghouls with my ghoul king giving that unit flaming attacks for those hoards of trolls I keep having to fight.

Sexiest_hero
27-03-2012, 18:53
I use him in my blood knights, Charge, flank, banner, bsb, warbanner= no fear of crumbling to static rez. And that is before Bloodknight kills.

Lance Tankmen
28-03-2012, 14:46
I use a Vampire BSB with the flaming banner, mounted, barding, HA, S, Lance, Redfury. I generally run him in a unit of 6 Blood Knights with the Banner of the Blood Keep (4+ ward save to shooting). He helps with providing the unit with flaming attacks, and 4 S7 attacks with Redfury.

The other reason I run him is because sometimes, against non-shooting armies like WoC or Deamons, I throw him in my 40 man block of ghouls with my ghoul king giving that unit flaming attacks for those hoards of trolls I keep having to fight.
how do you put red fury on him? its 55 pts and hero vampires only get 50?

warplock
28-03-2012, 15:00
how do you put red fury on him? its 55 pts and hero vampires only get 50?

Because it's not 55 points!

Lance Tankmen
28-03-2012, 15:15
nvm wrong one lol my bad. its the +1 wound