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squeekenator
27-04-2006, 22:07
Well, I looked around for a second army (already collect Skaven), and I decided to take Vampire Counts. The bloodline I liked most fluff-wise was Lahmian, but I also wanted a Blood Dragon-esque army with lots of cavalry, as I missed out on mounted troops with my Skaven. My main opponent are a wood elf player (no idea what his army's going to be like), a high elf player with a cavalry army and a dark elf player with a lot of Khaine-ish troops. Good elf country, isn't it? Anyway, here's the list.

General: Level 2 Lahmian Countess with Sword of Might, Quicksilver, Innocence Lost, Beguile, barded nightmare - 343pts

Heroes: Level 2 Necromancer with Staff of Damnation, barded nightmare - 152pts
Level 2 Necromancer with Book of Arkhan, barded nightmare - 137pts
Wraith with barded nightmare - 98pts

Core: 6 Dire Wolves - 60pts
6 Dire Wolves - 60pts
5 Dire Wolves - 50pts
5 Dire Wolves - 50pts
5 Dire Wolves - 50pts
5 Dire Wolves - 50pts

Special: 7 Black Knights with full command, barding, Banner of the Barrows - 260pts
Note: Joined by Countess.
8 Black Knights with full command, barding - 240pts
8 Black Knights with full command, barding - 240pts

Rare: Black Coach - 200pts

Total Army Points: 2002
Model Count: 60

Thing in the Shadows
28-04-2006, 00:26
You will have serious trouble I fear.

Here's my reasoning: General comments first:

The positive:

1. Terror causing wraith always a giggle and watching people whose troops cause fear automatically break is hilarious.

2. Coach is useful as a bullet sponge as people tend to panic about it.

3. Small army, easy paint jobs.

The negative

1. Dire wolves are "hassle" units great for tying up skirmishers, redirecting charges and killing war engine crews. They will not stand up to a real unit and so cannot be relied upon.

2. The meat of the army (pardon the pun) is missing. No skellies or zombies results in no units to bolster. While you can create units they will be in their weakest form. Far better to have a few small units of armed skellies - Light armour, shields and spears for example (can be done in plastic, post if you want to see my bretonian skellie conversions). Then when you raise skellies you are raising 11 point skellies rather than 8 point skellies. Oh, and don't forget, no command groups for raised units. You need to win that combat for your greatest weapon - fear - to force a flee.

3. The black coach with no other cannonball magnets to worry the opposition will be matchwood against anyone with a war machine.

4. No march moves for undead. While your dire wolves are scampering about your black knights are plodding forth as infantry leaving the enemy plenty of time to deal with the wolves and reduce the coach to kindling. You effectively send two armies, one of 520 points and one of 1480 points to fight a 2000 point opposition.

5. I really think VC lord level characters are too pricey for 2000 points. Keep with the thralls.

More specific thoughts:

1. Your necromancers are on their own and lonely, if your oppo stops your raising (all too easy) they are easy meat for scouting wood elves. 265 vp of wizard for a small unit of scouts.

2. High elven cavalry is highly manouverable and will be able to outposition your slow cavalry and will laugh at the dire wolves. The coach however will cause them problems unless one has brought the bow of the seafarer which I think is high enough strength for that deathblow rule.

3. All elves work on a high leadership score so you won't be able to rely on them failing to charge due to fear and inviting a charge, plus the difference between their 10" charge and your 8" charge is telling.

In conclusion:

I see where you were going with the list and I hope that there are others out there who can tell you how to make it work for you. The long and short of it is that there is no way to avoid painting skellies or zombies for VC armies and they just aren't as effective without their big blocks of infantry. Keep the cavalry just tone it down to maybe two units and use the 240 points saved to buy a ton of easily bolsterable infantry. I wish you luck.

Frankly
28-04-2006, 00:30
In a B.knight unit Innocence Lost isn't that effective, usually you'll get the charge, strike first adnthen your higher initiative will keep you striking first. Quick silver is a good buy.

Tranfix is well worth the extra 10pts, basically it can stun a hero for a turn, the vampire goes and kills rank and file, your hell knight challenges their captain so you can effectively have a change of negating his front rank from hitting back.(That simple:rolleyes:)

It's best putting her with a normal unit of B.knights with war Banner, she should rake up enough damage + the war banner to break most units.

Personally I'd drop the wraith and go for a wight lord in the unit with the B.o.t.Barrows, this will give you another unit breaker and will cut down the work load for your Count.

B.knight units aren't that great by themselves, like most other cavalry units they kinda need a hero in them to give them for that punch to break enemy units. Personally I'd either break it down and use it as a flanking unit and drop it since you have 3 pretty good hitty units already. Then against 3 big blocks of knights is pretty meaty and if you flank with wolves and charge with those B.knights you should be alright.

I think you really need a small unit of bats in the armylist to hunt out wizards since your lacking in anti-magic.

Ant those Necro's will have to go on steeds.

Frankly
28-04-2006, 00:58
1. Dire wolves are "hassle" units great for tying up skirmishers, redirecting charges and killing war engine crews. They will not stand up to a real unit and so cannot be relied upon.

2. The meat of the army (pardon the pun) is missing. No skellies or zombies results in no units to bolster. While you can create units they will be in their weakest form. Far better to have a few small units of armed skellies - Light armour, shields and spears for example (can be done in plastic, post if you want to see my bretonian skellie conversions). Then when you raise skellies you are raising 11 point skellies rather than 8 point skellies. Oh, and don't forget, no command groups for raised units. You need to win that combat for your greatest weapon - fear - to force a flee.

3. The black coach with no other cannonball magnets to worry the opposition will be matchwood against anyone with a war machine.

4. No march moves for undead. While your dire wolves are scampering about your black knights are plodding forth as infantry leaving the enemy plenty of time to deal with the wolves and reduce the coach to kindling. You effectively send two armies, one of 520 points and one of 1480 points to fight a 2000 point opposition.

5. I really think VC lord level characters are too pricey for 2000 points. Keep with the thralls.

2. High elven cavalry is highly manouverable and will be able to outposition your slow cavalry and will laugh at the dire wolves.



I've played All Cavalry alot and I disagree with alot of these statements.

I. Dire wolves are the meat of the army, they aren't there to get into combat with ranka dn file units, but to flank, block LOS and to meat shield(although more wolves would work better in this list).

2. Just like any other all cavalry army your giving up rank and file for speed and mobility, meaning your relying on flanking and hard hitting first rounds of combat over rank and file. Your looking at this armylist and thinking that it's not going to work "IF" you play it the same way as you do a basic Undead army, but its doesn't play that way at all. Not only that he's still has 3 Invations in the armylist.

3. Actually I agree, but alot of people like the B.Coach so its hard to tell them to play without it. The upside is against armies that don't have alot of str7 unit is really good. Against armies that do have cannons the B.Coach will draw attention away from your Count and B.knights which only needs two turns to get into combat.

4. V.C. can march(with in 12" of the general) and with a mobile general his Dire wolves won't have to much problems marching and getting into position.

5.Totally desagree ... more attacks, more wounds, she's a Wizard(which means she can be army general).

High elf cavalry WILL NOT run rings around dire wolves, not at all. 18" fast cavalry, but most importantly 10pts models, 50pts units, even if they did get a charges off against them, then you have a 200pt elf units asaulting 50pts wolves units and most likely over running into a counter charge next turn. To be honest, I usually run around 60 wolf units in my armylists so I have more units to "outposition" other cavalry armies. Eenough so Fast cavalry can out flank Silver Helms especailly in a armylist that has Vanhel's danse.

squeekenator
28-04-2006, 03:33
Thing In The Shadows

My puppies aren't to ever be in a fair fight. Yes, in a frontal attack, they get slaughtered. However, what happens when they rear charge at the same time as my knights slam into the unit's front? What about a zombie unit being raised and macabred into the unit's front, then the puppies rear charge the unit, forcing a panic test and robbing them of their rank bonus?
I dunno about needing to have an average joe army with a large chunk of skellies and zombies. I will buy them, in fact I love the little buggers, but my strategy is to raise units behind the enemy, then buff them, and when my knights hit, rear charge. Turning around to face them won't be an option, because that way they would be rear charged by the knights.
Yes, a cannon ball will reduce my magnificent coach into matchsticks. However, elves have no S7 or higher, except a dark elf highborn with the executioner's axe, and my DE playing friend much prefers Crimson Death, so that doesn't matter.
Um, what? Why exactly are my knights plodding along like infantry? They're all within 12" of my countess, while my puppies go down the enemy flank, being Macabred so they can move faster. However, with the deployment I'm using, they're all within 12" at the start of the game, and they can easily move up and then march around to the flanks and rears of my opponent's units.
My countess gives me an extra 2 magic levels, she can actually kill something in close combat, she has a decent magic item/bloodline power allowance, she has an extra wound, she has one more toughness... The list goes on and on. Thralls are not good enough for my general. A vampire count general has to be protected.
I don't understand how scouting wood elves can magically appear next to my necros as soon as their rasiing is stopped. Can you please enlighten me on this?
No, bow of the seafarer makes his shot a bolt thrower shot. Besides, I'd like to see his general holding his dragon princes back so that he can shoot me!
Alright, so here you're telling me that my infantry sucks against elves, after telling me that infantry are neccessary and that I'll die without them. Hmm. I have yet to understand this.


Frankly

Sorry, the necros are on barded nightmares, I included that in the total points but forgot about their steeds when I typed up the list. Whoops!
You may not think IL is a good buy, but against woodies who, with their skirmishers, can run circles around me, and high elves with M9 dragon princes, I'm going to be on the recieving end of a fair amoun of charges.
I wish I had the 10 points for transfix, but I can't seem to find them. What should I drop so I can afford it?
I like having 2 terror causers in my army, especially since the wraith has a 16" march move and is ethereal. Warhammer isn't won by the things that can kill the enemy more effectively, it's won by the things that can make enemies flee.
I don't see why cavalry units can't break enemies on their own. A unit of BK with hellish vigour charging the enemy is pretty much guaranteed to shred them. Also, killing blow on whole units makes them really good at killing those Silver Helms.
Hmmm. I'd like to have some bats, what do you think I could drop to afford them?

shadowprince
28-04-2006, 03:58
VC lords are not to pricy after all why play VC if you don't get them, hell I use a lord, and 2 necros works fine. If you want allo calv go von carstien list. Otherwise you need to balance it, especially with some spirit hosts

squeekenator
28-04-2006, 04:04
Why do I have to take von carstien to have a lot of cavalry? Also, why do I need to balance it? Can I have some reasons here?
By the way, this isn't a lot of cavalry. The list Mk 1 had 33 black knights in it.

shadowprince
28-04-2006, 04:05
the SoC von carstien list is better for the all calv approach as you can summon wolfs.

squeekenator
28-04-2006, 04:11
Oh, right. Well, I want to be able to summon meat shields, not more flankers. 32 puppies is enough for me. However, skellies can actually last in a combat, and when I summon them, they appear right next to the enemy so I don't have to worry about them being slow!

squeekenator
28-04-2006, 09:30
Ok, change of plan. I decided to drop Beguile on my Countess and my Wraith and get a Wight Lord with the battle standard, heavy armour and a barded nightmare.

Leonous2006
28-04-2006, 21:10
Instead of the black coach why not take 2 banshees, the black coach is more of a von carstein thing really, banshees/ spirit hosts are better fluff wise and much more of a pain in the ****!

On the other side an army with alot of fast cavalry (especially shooting fast cav) (i.e dark riders, glide riders) will reduce your dogs in seconds.
taking two dogs from each unit can be done in 2 turns possibly even one,rendering them pretty much useless combat wise.
You will seriously suffer against woodies.....

Frankly
29-04-2006, 09:24
You may not think IL is a good buy, but against woodies who, with their skirmishers, can run circles around me, and high elves with M9 dragon princes, I'm going to be on the recieving end of a fair amoun of charges.


I wish I had the 10 points for transfix, but I can't seem to find them. What should I drop so I can afford it?


I like having 2 terror causers in my army, especially since the wraith has a 16" march move and is ethereal. Warhammer isn't won by the things that can kill the enemy more effectively, it's won by the things that can make enemies flee.


I don't see why cavalry units can't break enemies on their own. A unit of BK with hellish vigour charging the enemy is pretty much guaranteed to shred them. Also, killing blow on whole units makes them really good at killing those Silver Helms.

Hmmm. I'd like to have some bats, what do you think I could drop to afford them?

Terror is good, but a wriath isn't great and you already have a teror coursing unit, having 2 is usually obver kill, woodies have good L.d. and alot of their units are immune to psyche.

Drop 2 wolves.

B.knights don't usually break units because you have 6 to hits and on average 3 will miss, 3 to wounds, 2-3 should hit and then maybe armour and ward saves + a rank and standard, against the enemy units outnumbering, ranks and standard + attacks back.

Thats not great for being a unit breaker, character help ge kills and stops models striking back(since they're dead).

Listen, killing blow isn't that great, its just the luck of the dice, you can't count on if more than str6 on the charge.

Drop the last B.knight unit down to 5 and spend the points on bats and more wolves.

squeekenator
29-04-2006, 10:04
I know killing blow can't be relied on, it's just nice to have. I wasn't thinking straight when I said it was really effective. I'll do the maths here for my unit of black knights without a charcter charging dark elves with spears.

Frontage of 6 + Champion = 7 attacks
7 attacks hitting on a 4+ = 3.5 hits
3.5 hits wounding on a 2+ = 2.9 wounds, rounded up to 3.

Frontage of 5, 3 ranks is how my friend fields his elf units, because he finds a rank bonus too expensive. So, with the command group, that's 8 counterattacks.

8 attacks hitting on a 3+ = 5.3 hits
5.3 hits wounding on a 5+ = 1.7 wounds
1.7 wounds saving on a 2+ = 0.29 failed armour saves, rounded down to 0.

Combat resolution: I get 3 wounds, I outnumber (US 16 vs. US 12), I have a standard. Combat resolution 5.
He gets 1 rank bonus and standard. Combat resolution 2.
He autobreaks and is run down.

And that was with my unit without a character in it. They're a fair sledgehammer against elves.

My wood elf friend is only just starting out (he hasn't assembled a single model yet), and I don't know if he's going shooty, close combat, balanced, lots of elves, lots of tree spirits, etc. I'll change around a few things depending on what he decides to do. Also, I said that I was going to swap around my wraith and a bit of glitter for a wight lord bsb, so don't worry about me having too many terror-causers.
Leonous, I'll consider it. However, Banshees are very vulnerable to armies with s lot of magical attacks (coughsplutterwoodelvescoughhackwheeze).