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static-breed
28-04-2006, 01:31
I've been looking back into my VC book and, like many other, love the Blood Dragons. However, I don't want to use the standard list, but instead, like the one in the back of the book much more.

Now my question is: is this list allowed? Is it just as legal as the other one in tournaments and whatno? And, is it probable that it will be taken out when the new book is done (whenever that might be).

Thanks in advance.

Sylass
28-04-2006, 08:20
The "back of the book VC lists" are not official. So you'll need your opponent's permission to use them.

static-breed
28-04-2006, 11:50
Okay, well, from your experiences, would you say many people would have a problem with such a list?

blurred
28-04-2006, 12:35
The appendix lists are very unbalanced in many cases so some people may have issues with them. I wouldn't personally mind if you're not exploiting the list too much.

Sylass
28-04-2006, 12:44
The appendix lists are very unbalanced in many cases so some people may have issues with them. I wouldn't personally mind if you're not exploiting the list too much.
Agreed, and don't expect that you can use that list when visiting tournaments. From my experience it's highly unlikely that these lists will be allowed there.

Fighting Wight cavalry charging you using the lance formation isn't everyone's cup of tea. ;)

ZomboCom
28-04-2006, 12:45
For friendly games most people will be ok, as long as you don't abuse the lists too much. I'm working on a blood dragon back of the book army myself.

Whatever you do, don't be tempted to go down the "all-mounted, nothing but lances-of-doom" route with the list, since then you really won't find anyone to play against you. If you make a ballanced army with the list I'm sure plenty of people will happily play against it.

static-breed
28-04-2006, 14:40
I was planning a list with 3 thralls, all in 8 man Lances, supported by a coach and another small 5 man unit in 1500pts. I'm assuming this would be cheesy? Too bad, it sounded fun. Hm...maybe I'll go Lahmians (sp?).

ZomboCom
28-04-2006, 14:53
I was planning a list with 3 thralls, all in 8 man Lances, supported by a coach and another small 5 man unit in 1500pts. I'm assuming this would be cheesy? Too bad, it sounded fun. Hm...maybe I'll go Lahmians (sp?).

Yes, that's horribly cheesy and I think you'd find it bloody hard to get people to play against. It's unofficial, so if you go overboard and make a broken list people just won't play against it. An all knight army with S4, T4, magical attacks, killing blow, lances AND LANCE FORMATION is just cheesy and noone will want to play against it. It's unofficial for a reason.

Stick some grave guard in there, they're still hard as nails but can't be considered cheesy.

The lahmian list is pretty damn broken too, especially the swains. Jaguar Saurus of Doom in a Vampire Counts list? WTF?

sephiroth87
28-04-2006, 15:14
It's not that bad. The lances can be dealt with if you use good tactics and stop bitching. FLANK THEM. And yes, it can be done.

static-breed
28-04-2006, 15:22
The main reason I wanted to make the army because I wanted an undead Bretonnia Army with beautiful murals on their horses' drapings and such, probably won't even play it much, but when I do, I don't want people to hate me for it.

Any more comments are appreciated, thank you. :)

Festus
28-04-2006, 17:39
Hi

If you really want to do it, mirror the Bretonnian Army properly: Most who die are MaA's, Peasants.

So you should include a healthy dose of foot units in the mix, and don't do all Wight Cav.
Use a Necromanceresse (an undead Damsel turned to Necromancy by your BD) or something fluffy, don't do all Wight Cav.
Let a Wight or two lead your foot regiment's as dismounted Knights. Dont do all Wight Cav...

Festus

BloodiedSword
28-04-2006, 18:39
Of course lance formation is not indestructible. The problem is that in general, cavalry in this edition performs better than its points would suggest, and lance formation performs what normal cavalry does with many advantages and few disadvantages.

It's no use saying "lances can still get flanked" - so can normal cavalry, and normal cavalry only get 1 model fighting if they do get flanked whilst Lance might get 2 or even 3.

Plus, while you can argue that Bretonnians pay for the advantages of Lance formation, Black Knights in the Blood Dragon list do not - all that happens is that they come with barding as default.

ZomboCom
28-04-2006, 18:40
Hi

If you really want to do it, mirror the Bretonnian Army properly: Most who die are MaA's, Peasants.

So you should include a healthy dose of foot units in the mix, and don't do all Wight Cav.
Use a Necromanceresse (an undead Damsel turned to Necromancy by your BD) or something fluffy, don't do all Wight Cav.
Let a Wight or two lead your foot regiment's as dismounted Knights. Dont do all Wight Cav...

Festus

There are no necromancers in the BD test list, but I intend to use Damsels as Banshees in my BD list.

ZomboCom
28-04-2006, 18:42
Plus, while you can argue that Bretonnians pay for the advantages of Lance formation, Black Knights in the Blood Dragon list do not - all that happens is that they come with barding as default.

Well, if you use lance formation you pay for it by not being able to use DoW :)

Festus
28-04-2006, 19:16
Hi

There are no necromancers in the BD test list, but I intend to use Damsels as Banshees in my BD list.
An even better use!

The Damsel damned to scream *Nooooo! The Knights are all gone!* for the Rest of her Unlife :D

Greetings
Festus

gukal
28-04-2006, 21:11
An all knight army with S4, T4, magical attacks, killing blow, lances AND LANCE FORMATION is just cheesy and noone will want to play against it. It's unofficial for a reason.

Don't forget FEAR-causing.


It's not that bad. The lances can be dealt with if you use good tactics and stop bitching. FLANK THEM. And yes, it can be done.

Player A: places a unit of [insert favorite expendible troops] in front of undead lance to redirect it into forest
Player B: charge!
Player A: watches unit of [insert favorite expendible troops] fail its fear test and flee. Waving its Screaming Banner tauntingly, the lance redirects.
Player B: grins as his undead lance completely spanks second unit and breaks it.
Player A: attempts flank charge .... fails fear test. Dagnabbit!!!

Its easy math. Knights in lance formation are tough on the charge. Wights have better stats and combat abilities than standard Knights. Being fear-causing and immune to psychology mitigates some of the weaknesses of the already powerful Bretonnian lances.

It's a poorly balanced list with high powergame potential (that secretly, I would really enjoy playing against :)).

- Gukal

Stouty
28-04-2006, 22:54
Just to answer the second question: I would say it was highly unlikely that the appendix lists would be in any new book. There were none in ogre kingdoms, wood elves or dwarves. I think the idea is that you can choose different units within an army list and that lets you make different armies, some of which may be themed.

static-breed
28-04-2006, 23:59
Alright, well thanks for the replies, I may just do a normal (as in actual rules) Lahmian army instead of back of the book BD.

Your input has helped me greatly and stopped me from wasting a ton of my money. :)

cytoc
29-04-2006, 06:56
The main reason I wanted to make the army because I wanted an undead Bretonnia Army with beautiful murals on their horses' drapings and such, probably won't even play it much, but when I do, I don't want people to hate me for it.

Any more comments are appreciated, thank you. :)


Based on your previous response, you seem to have already made up your mind, but if you really want to run an undead brettonian army, run it using the brettonian rules but use your converted, undead models.

That way no one can really complain about the list. You could go all mounted and use the lance formation. It just wouldn't be broken like all black knights in a lance formation.