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View Full Version : Remake your second edition Heroes for the current edition.



IcedAnimals
31-03-2012, 23:19
Many of us remember the "hero hammer" of second edition. Characters had absurd stat lines and rules that allowed some to near single handily wipe out an enemy army. Especially once you started getting some of the crazier wargear options. While some characters from second edition have been remade in more recent books. There are quite a few that have no rules. And due to the vastly different rules format you can't just copy paste their rules like you could with say a 3rd edition hero. So if you could remake some of your favorite second edition special characters what would you do? Try to keep them as as close as their second edition counterparts as you can while keeping in mind current codex rules. Certain things might have to be dropped completely or heavily remade but I would be curious to see what others come up with.

As a sisters player back in second there was Saint Praxedes. She was as close to a close combat monster as sisters have ever gotten. In her fluff she beats down a hive tyrant to allow refuges to escape and then takes her small force of sisters in and completely throws off the tyranids attack on a space port. Martyring herself in order to allow more people to get off planet. Her statline and wargear also represented her ability in melee. She use to be

WS BS S T W I A LD
6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10

Wargear wise she had a bolter, cloak of saint aspira giving her a 2+ save and her power weapon that had her hit harder in melee. She also had purity seals and a Scanner. Items with no real equivalent in current 40k. I suppose the scanner could disallow infiltrators from setting up with 24 inches of her. her special rules also had a melee focus. But lets just get to what I feel would adequately represent her if she were to be in the current sisters codex. First up is her Statline.

WS BS S T W I A LD
5 5 4 4 3 4 4 10

Compared to your generic canoness this puts her at +1 S,T and Attacks. But removes some of the "crazier" second edition values in favor of a more balanced 5th edition statline for humans.

Wargear wise, I am leaving her with her power armor and cloak for a 2+ save. And her Scepter of Vengeance will act as a master crafted power weapon that adds +1 to her strength (Bonus included in profile) She has never had an invuln save so I am leaving that out. She will still have her 6+ invuln from the new almost "army wide" shield of faith rule. But giving her an actual invuln save goes against the spirit of what the character had in second edition. Purity seals will be dropped. And for now we will drop the scanner as well as it was more of a universal item from multiple armies and not something character defining.

Special rules, her first one was sacred rites, but we will drop that as it has no bearing on the current codex. She had Irresistible charge. An ability where you rolled a dice, added your strength and if it was higher than your opponents str value their WS was halved. While there is the easy route of giving her furious charge. I think a better and more true to her character rule would be to leave the rule alone but remove the strength bonus added to her dice. This means that if she charges a unit of guardsmen then on a 4+ their WS is halved (rounding up) against Marines you need a 5+. So you have a decent chance of making marines WS2 for the first round of combat. However this prevents her from being able to "knock over" monstrous creatures.

Her Second and last special rule that I would keep is her Inspirational Leader. This gave her a 12 inch bubble of people able to use her leadership. And it gave the squad she is attached to +1 WS on the charge. Basically acting as a book of saint lucius that grants +1 WS.

She originally costed 122 points. I figure round up and put her at 125. So what does this all add up to?
125 points for a potential ws6 s4 5 power weapon attacks on the charge with a chance of reducing your opponents ws for 1 round to help ensure you win that first round. Should you not win that first round of combat or be on the receiving end of a charge, being a sister of battle with no invuln save means any dedicated melee unit will be able to chop through her.

I would be interested in hearing other people's opinions on my attempt to bring an old second edition hero in line with the current books. But I would be even more interested in seeing what other people come up with. I am sure that my love of my army swayed what I feel is "balanced" for my character. So it will be fun to see how well other people can be at creating balanced rule sets.

Grimbad
01-04-2012, 03:34
Since my group has switched from 5th to 2nd, I'll reverse this, and instead adapt Lias Issodon of the Raptors from Badab War for second edition. Space Marine heroes who actually use guns fit into 2e pretty well anyways.

Lias is a Chapter Master (Space Marine Mighty Hero). This gives him a profile of:

M
WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
Ld


4
7
7
5
5
3
7
3
10



He is armed with a power sword and a bolt pistol, frag grenades and blind grenades, and wears powered armor (3+).
He may take up to three Wargear cards. One of these must be Malice, his personalized boltgun.

If your Raptors army includes Lias Issodon, he must be your army commander. Issodon is legendary among Space Marines for his strategic brilliance. His strategy rating is 6. Furthermore, he is a master of unconventional tactics. When drawing Strategy cards, Issodon can draw an additional two cards, and then discard any two.

Issodon costs 135 points, plus the cost of all Wargear cards.

Malice - 15 points
Malice is a highly customized boltgun incorporating a targeter. It can be fired with the same effect as a storm bolter, but as a result of its careful maintenance and arcane technologies, Malice never jams- roll a D3 instead of a Sustained Fire dice to determine the number of hits. Additionally, if Malice is upgraded with Seeking Ammo or Armor Piercing Ammo, it is treated as having a supply to last the entire game rather than only one round.

Stonerhino
01-04-2012, 04:21
G'nerik Lord of Khorne:

WS BS S T W I A LD
.6 5 4 4 3 5 3 10
Wargear:
Collar of Khorne: Confers Kharn's Blessing of the Blood God rule.

Khornate Terminator Armor: Ignore failed armor saves on a roll of 4+

Displacer Field: 3++ inv save

Hammer of the Destroyer (2nd Ed Thunder Hammer): Ignores armor saves. Hits caused by the Hammer of the Destroyer wound automatically. Unsaved wounds cause by the Hammer of the Destroyer infict 1D6 wounds.

Special Rules:
Frenzy: G'nerik, has both the Fleet and Rage USRs. He also doubles his attack characteristic while in melee.

Parry: One successful melee to-hit roll against G'nerik must be rerolled, the second result stands. If the enemy model has the ability to reroll failed to-hit rolls, Parry and the other model's ability both cease to function for that round of melee.

IcedAnimals
01-04-2012, 04:36
Grimbad I like your twist. Is there a reason your group has switched back to second edition? While I started playing at the start of 3rd there was always a few people around who still wanted to play second. I never got into it.

Stonerhino, Clever but I was talking about actual special named characters. It defeats the purpose of trying to remain true to a character when the character can take anything and everything. Second edition player made characters were broken as all get out :P

lantzkev
01-04-2012, 04:37
Nazdreg Badmoon
Not sure how to make him, but I know I'd have a pick from the apoc strategies roll 1d3 and you can pick that many of the cheaper options from it.
Standard warboss stats with a kustom kombi blaster and "extra glitzy" armour.

In addition the big gunz count as troops

Drongol
01-04-2012, 16:04
Many of us remember the "hero hammer" of second edition. Characters had absurd stat lines and rules that allowed some to near single handily wipe out an enemy army. Especially once you started getting some of the crazier wargear options.

No. Entirely no.

There is not a single character in 2nd Edition that could do anything like what a generic SM Captain can pull off in 3rd, 4th, or 5th Edition. The so-called "Herohammer" characters spent a large amount of points on protective gear and were difficult to kill, sure, but could only ever make their points back by hunting enemy characters.

That said, looking at your Sisters character, why would you ever take her over a Cannoness? Her rule in 2nd allowed her to charge a character and inflict quite a bit of butt-whooping, whereas right now it would give her a bonus to hit from WS 5-9. Hardly that impressive.

Grimbad
01-04-2012, 20:18
Grimbad I like your twist. Is there a reason your group has switched back to second edition? While I started playing at the start of 3rd there was always a few people around who still wanted to play second. I never got into it.


None of us are particularly interested in the huge battles that 3+ 40k increasingly leans towards. 2nd edition certainly bogs down at larger points values, but its core system is an excellent one for smaller games, and gets better the smaller the game is (See Gorkamorka, Necromunda). It's a more visceral system, and more cinematic on its own scale. It works better for campaigns. It has all the options that we as players of 4th and 5th thought the game was stupid to lack, like being able to throw grenades and actually use pistols in close combat. It reaches into pockets of the 40k fluff that haven't been seen on the table since, like daemon worlds and genestealer cults. It's more fun, basically.

But you need to have such a like-minded group, or else it very well could devolve into horrible nonsensical cheese wars. Also, what Drongol said. Heroes are usually overrated when people look back on 2e. They are loads of fun, and can be the narrative focus of a battle, but often don't make all that much of a difference. Usually they're bound to M4 or so, and anything that makes them faster than the troops also makes them a legal target for enemy fire. If they get into close combat, they had better have a squad backing them up, because there isn't any obligation to move into hand-to-hand in 2e. The enemy can choose to feed you one trooper at a time, or pile them all on at once and attempt to drown you in modifiers.
Psykers, usually, are the most damaging ones, not the close combat monsters or the vortex delivery systems.

RunepriestRidcully
01-04-2012, 20:55
Which books/boxsets/cards do you need to play second? I have a few of the army books, and a black and white soft cover rule book with a load of marines on parade on the cover, but no idea what else I would need to play second edition as it was entirely before my time. (The space wolf codex came out the same year as I was born!)

Grimbad
01-04-2012, 23:20
Which books/boxsets/cards do you need to play second? I have a few of the army books, and a black and white soft cover rule book with a load of marines on parade on the cover, but no idea what else I would need to play second edition as it was entirely before my time. (The space wolf codex came out the same year as I was born!)

If you can find a complete starter box, you can play the basic game with nothing else. In that case, you would have a spare Codex Army Lists to give to a friend and snare them in, too. The starter box has Rulebook, Imperialis, Wargear, Army Lists, wargear, strategy, and vehicle cards, reference sheets for weapon stats, templates and blasts, dozens of unnecessary counters, and (hopefully) a small marine force, a small ork force, and some card buildings. I got the minis but not the buildings when I got mine. Imperialis, Wargear, and Army Lists basically form one three-volume codex for the entire setting. You can play any army, roughly as they stood at the end of Rogue Trader, using Imperialis for fluff and special rules, Wargear for weapon rules, and Army Lists for points costs.

If you want to use Codex books, you may find that they refer to psychic rules that aren't in the core rulebook. You can make them work with the psionics in the Rulebook, but for the full psychic rules you need the Dark Millennium box, which also includes some more wargear and vehicle cards. Dark Millennium's big contribution is the Psychic Phase, with the Warp Deck and the Psychic Cards, and a load of brightly colored psychic templates.

Chem-Dog
01-04-2012, 23:45
Captain Mogul Kamir.
Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv
5 4 4 3 2 4 3 9 4+

Unit type: Cavalry (unique).

Wargear
- Carapace Armour.
- Refractor Field.
- Bolt Pistol.
- Roughrider Hunting Lance.
- Frag Grenades & Krak Grenades.
- Sword.
- Eye of the Falcon.
- The Falcon's Claw.
- Headstrong.

Special Rules.
- Expert Rider.
- Move through Cover.
- Hit and Run.
- Stubborn.
- Scouts.
- Khanastan's Fiercest.
- Kamir's luck.
- The Thunder of hooves.

The Eye off the Falcon. Few warriors of Atilla survive a long career in the Imperial Guard without adding to the scars they earn on the plains of their homeworld, Kamir is no exception. He lost his eye during a series of counter-attacks against the Eldar during the Aquileia Campaign and then his arm during the defence of Ravenna, a forgeworld. In recognition of his pivotal role in the defence of Ravenna the Magi of the world granted him the honour of highly ornate bionic replacements for his newly damaged arm and his existing basic bionic eye. The two work together to allow Kamir a greater amount of freedom in movement, as suits his manner of warfare.
The eye grants him +1 Inititative and +1Bs (both included in his profile), in addition Any weapon used by Kamir in this arm counts as Master-crafted, this can be his Sword, His Hunting Lance or his Boltpistol, but only one can benefit from this advantage in any player turn.

The Falcon's Claw. Linked to the Eye of the Falcon the Claw is an ornate Bionic arm built by the forge-masters of Ravenna, crafted from an Adamantium alloy that few within the Adeptus Mechanicus are able to replicate, it is both strong and light weight, affording Kamir improved strength without hampering his dexterity.
Mogul Kamir gains +1 S, +1 I and +1A from the Falcon's claw (included in his profile), in addition any attacks made by Kamir in Close Combat are rending.

Khanasan's Fiercest. Mogul Kamir is an HQ choice in an Imperial Guard army. The Captain may be accompanied by 4-9 Veteran Horsemen at 15 points each.
Ws Bs S T W I A Ld Sv
3 3 3 3 1 3 2 8 5+
Each of the Veteran Horsemen is armed with a Hunting Lance, Laspistol or Close Combat Weapon, Frag and Krak Grenades.
Each of them also has the following Special Rules:
- Expert Rider.
- Move through Cover.
- Hit and Run.
- Stubborn.
- Scouts.

For 40 points one of the Riders may carry Kamir's personal Banner. The Banner counts as a regimental standard (but only affects Rough Riders) and any Rough Rider Squad within 12" of the banner (including Kamir and his Veterans) gains the Furious Charge and Counter Attack universal Special Rule. The banner replaces the Rider's Hunting Lance.

Kamir's Luck. Quite how it happens nobody has been able to tell, but the deeply superstitious men of Atilla believe that Mogul Kamir is chosen by destiny to ride forever. It seems that time and again a blow that would topple the man is intercepted by one of his warriors, this seems not to worry his men though as they believe to die at the side of one of such great destiny is an honour. Any attack that wounds Kamir personally (after any saves) are immediately passed on to one of his retinue on a 4+, whatever the source of the attack.

The Thunder of Hooves. Mogul Kamir's strength as a fighter is matched only by his power as a leader to the wild horsemen of his homeworld, something the Imperial Guard's higher Echelons have been keen to exploit. An army that Includes Mogul Kamir may take Rough Riders as Troops (and as Fast Attack). And as Heavy Support. And probably Elites too... :shifty:

Headstrong. Mogul Kamir can give the following orders.
Get back in the fight! See The Imperial Guard Codex Pg 30
Move! Move! Move! See The Imperial Guard Codex Pg 36
He can issue two Orders per turn and has a Command Radius of 12"
In addition Kamir's order can only be given to Rough Riders and must be issued before any other Orders. If Kamir's Orders generate the "Inspired Tactics" result, the free order may be given to a non Rough Rider unit (to represent the army's commanders pressing an advantage Kamir has created). Unfortunately not all commanders are quick-witted enough to follow the Horseman's flowing battle-plan and an "Incompetent Command" result has the usual effects.



There. That looks perfectly balanced to me....*ahem*


EDIT. There's a chap (or chapess) on WarSeer who's sig is a guide to putting a nicely formatted character stat-bar up in posts like this. Problem is I can't bally well remember who it is and the forum search function doesn't help that much. If someone would be as good to point the individual out (or if the individual would come forward) I'll edit the stats-bar accordingly and make it all look lovely.
Kthnksbai.

IcedAnimals
02-04-2012, 01:31
No. Entirely no.

There is not a single character in 2nd Edition that could do anything like what a generic SM Captain can pull off in 3rd, 4th, or 5th Edition. The so-called "Herohammer" characters spent a large amount of points on protective gear and were difficult to kill, sure, but could only ever make their points back by hunting enemy characters.

That said, looking at your Sisters character, why would you ever take her over a Cannoness? Her rule in 2nd allowed her to charge a character and inflict quite a bit of butt-whooping, whereas right now it would give her a bonus to hit from WS 5-9. Hardly that impressive.

I will admit to having very little experience with 2nd edition. I started just a few months after 3rd came out and was like 11 or 12 at the time. So while the group that got me playing and most people were using 3rd editions rules there were a few stubborn people who still wanted to play second edition. But with the few games I played HQs seemed to just destroy my army. Now granted like I said I was both young and had just started the hobby. As for my character. She has +1 Str +1 Toughness +1 attack and a better armor save over a normal canoness. She has a 12 inch stubborn bubble something sisters lost with the current codex. And due to her two special rule any WS 4 opponent is WS 2. So she and her squad which are WS 5 hit on 3s and are hit back on 5s.

She can't really compare to a normal canoness simply because about the only thing a normal canoness can take that this character has is a power weapon. But a canoness is a horrible unit in the new codex. Quite possibly the worst HQ choice we have.

@Chem-dog Now that is what I am talking about. Not only did you bring the character in line you brought his veteran bodyguard into it as well. As someone who loves rough riders I enjoy what you did with the guy. Though while im sure you were joking Being able to field rough riders in every slot would be a way fun list to run. Something along the lines of 9 rough rider squads + him and his guys would be cool just to see 100 horsemen on the battlefield.

Stonerhino
02-04-2012, 06:19
EDIT. There's a chap (or chapess) on WarSeer who's sig is a guide to putting a nicely formatted character stat-bar up in posts like this. Problem is I can't bally well remember who it is and the forum search function doesn't help that much. If someone would be as good to point the individual out (or if the individual would come forward) I'll edit the stats-bar accordingly and make it all look lovely.
Kthnksbai.I find it a pain in the butt to do but looks nice when done.

Step One:
Use a space holder:

WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-LD
-4--4-4-4-1-4-1--8

Step Two:
Make the Font=Lucida Sans Unicode


WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-LD
-4--4-4-4-1-4-1--8

Step Three:
Change the space holder's text color to black:

WS-BS-S-T-W-I-A-LD
-4--4-4-4-1-4-1--8

It's also a pain if you have to edit it because it looks like:

FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode WS COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR BS COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR S COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR T COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR W COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR I COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR A COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR LD
COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 4 COLOR="#000000" -- /COLOR 4 COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 4 COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 4 COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 1 COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 4 COLOR="#000000" - /COLOR 1 COLOR="#000000" -- /COLOR 8 /FONTHope that helps.

Edit:
I never had that in my sign. But I remember seeing the member you're talking about. But cannot remember his name.

Edit 2:
You can also "Go advanced" and create a table and make it like:


WS
BS
S
T
W
I
A
LD


4
4
4
4
1
4
1
8

Bunnahabhain
02-04-2012, 10:26
Chem dog, you forgot one thing with that ( now worth taking) Kamir...

A new FAQ , so furious charge works with lances. Currently, as a weapon of specified S and I, they stay at that regardless of furious charge.

Drongol
02-04-2012, 14:33
I will admit to having very little experience with 2nd edition. I started just a few months after 3rd came out and was like 11 or 12 at the time. So while the group that got me playing and most people were using 3rd editions rules there were a few stubborn people who still wanted to play second edition. But with the few games I played HQs seemed to just destroy my army.

This would likely be because you had such little experience.

When you send your big badass character at my poor little squad, here's what happens. He murders the one guy he charged, follows up 2", and I move that guy away from combat, killing him in the process. In the meantime, I can continue shooting where ever I want and you are limited to, at most, killing 8 guys over the course of a "standard" 2nd Edition game. And that's assuming you got a charge off in the first turn, and so on.

There were very few characters in 2nd who could hope to earn their points back by doing anything other than hunting other characters. It's just that people looked at things and went "holy cow, a Wolf Lord has S/T 5 and WS 8" and decided to completely overplay it. I believe there was a handful of Eldar characters, including maybe Karandras, who could fight a round of combat after follow-up, but that may be just my memory playing tricks with me. Outside of that, a character never had the sort of impact that they do in 3rd-5th.

Stonerhino
02-04-2012, 20:16
That's not true at all. Sure there were ways to mitigate the damage that they did. But they where the Deathstars of their time. The person fielding them would have their own ways to limit how you mitigated them. Also, it was not always a case of making their points backs. If you used them to counter what ever the rest of your army would have trouble dealing with. Even if they only make back 25% of their points, they destroyed a hard counter to something else in your army.

But outside of the Deamon Princes. The special Charaters where not what made 2nd Ed Herohammer. It was the decked out G'nerik Lords, Exarchs and Champions.

Drongol
02-04-2012, 20:56
That's not true at all. Sure there were ways to mitigate the damage that they did. But they where the Deathstars of their time. The person fielding them would have their own ways to limit how you mitigated them. Also, it was not always a case of making their points backs. If you used them to counter what ever the rest of your army would have trouble dealing with. Even if they only make back 25% of their points, they destroyed a hard counter to something else in your army.

But outside of the Deamon Princes. The special Charaters where not what made 2nd Ed Herohammer. It was the decked out G'nerik Lords, Exarchs and Champions.

Characters really weren't that good. And, frankly, outside of perhaps Doombreed, the Daemon Princes were assault cannon bait.

There was honestly no way to "hard counter" something with a character, outside of perhaps another character. You were better off, in nearly every circumstance, just dealing with the opposing army and going after the mission objectives. But people don't remember this because they're too focused on Terminator armor characters of virtual invulnerability who somehow make it across the table in 4 turns and kill everything in sight. ;)

ColShaw
02-04-2012, 21:07
Characters really weren't that good. And, frankly, outside of perhaps Doombreed, the Daemon Princes were assault cannon bait.

It was 2nd Edition; EVERYTHING was assault cannon bait. I remember those assault cannons... up to 9 hits worth of Krak Missiles coming down on you.

Gertjan
02-04-2012, 22:22
Characters really weren't that good. And, frankly, outside of perhaps Doombreed, the Daemon Princes were assault cannon bait.

There was honestly no way to "hard counter" something with a character, outside of perhaps another character. You were better off, in nearly every circumstance, just dealing with the opposing army and going after the mission objectives. But people don't remember this because they're too focused on Terminator armor characters of virtual invulnerability who somehow make it across the table in 4 turns and kill everything in sight. ;)

Which was quite a feat in and of itself seeing how transport were deathtraps and jump packs had their drawbacks aswell, the bad ass character hit you lines in turn 3 (ok, maybe 2 if it had combat drugs or some other shenanigan) and killed a few peeps or a tank. If it didn't get insta gibbed by a lascannon or assault cannon or something similar. Characters now are far worse than they ever were in 2nd, no silly eternal warrior crap going around, bad ass or not, if you failed your safe that single lascannon shot would fry it, barring snake eyes :D. No, I have always been amazed at how everyone seemed to just carry the herohammer from 5th fantasy over into 2nd 40k, it never was that bad, in a game were everything could be killy, hard to kill characters were usually the least dangerous ones. Characters have only become more powerfull with the following editions imo.