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Demoulius
01-04-2012, 02:36
Hello :)

With the new empire armybook coming out ive been drooling over the demi gryphon knights and pre-orderd a box of them :D

What im curious about though is what is the best unit size for monstrous cav? The sweet spot if you will ;)

For example I inmagine 3 wont have that much of an impact but 6 (so 1 rank) would be a much bigger threat. They would also have a rank bonus if they manage to get into combat without losing a model :)

Other armies have had monstrous cav for a while now, what have been your experiences with monstrous cav?

GodlessM
01-04-2012, 02:47
6 is pointless for most monstrous cavalry since the mounts can't attack from the back rank. It works for Mournfangs because the riders have multiple attacks, but not for anything else that comes to mind. 4 is ideal IMO.

LevDaddy
01-04-2012, 05:30
I go with a unit of 5 or 6 with my NecroKnights in every game with my TK.

I will deploy them up the middle and whichever formation I need to, depending on matchups, terrain, etc. I just had a game against Empire where I used a unit of 6 with FC, and I went 4 in front, 2 in the back rank, right up the middle. They took some wounds making it across the battlefield, but I made it into a horde unit of Flagellants along with some chariots and with Timewarp, they killed them to a man on the charge. I've also gone with 2 smaller units against Skaven and such to give them multiple targets to deal with.

Bottom line, Monstrous Cav are to 8th what Cav was to 7th. NecroKnights can simply wreck face, especially buffed. Some tourney builds use units of 9, or 2 6's, and let the buffs fly. I'm sure Demi's will have similar results. The bigger the better.

Glenn87
01-04-2012, 08:08
I'm curious to know too, as I'm thinking of buying BloodCrushers of Khorne.

HDWarlord
01-04-2012, 12:01
Is this in fact correct? I was under the impression that in the warhammer rulebook update 1.5 on page 2 under "Monstrous Cavalry" it says to add "Monstrous Support" to the rules for monstrous cavalry and further notes that the riders can fight with their full attacks up to a maximum of 3. I'm sorry if this has been covered elsewhere but I'm just wondering what I'm missing?

Back to the topic at hand. If what I said is true then it would appear 6 (3x2) is quite an effective unit size as you are only losing 3 stomp attacks from the models being in the second rank and maximizing your attacks.

boli
01-04-2012, 13:10
All the cavalry rules apply to Mounstrous Cavalry with one exception-- mounstrous cavalry always use the highest Wounds characteristic the model has, rather than asutomatically using the rider's....

When a cavalry model makes supporting attacks only the rider can strike

A mounstyrous INFANTRY model can make as many supporting attacks as are on their profile up to a maximum of 3

So... depending on armoursave(s) given you're only going to want 1 rank. especially as you'll be saving against the riders toughness not the mounts. everythign in second rank and beyond is just for soaking up damage and possible rank bonus. Ironically perhaps this unit is going to make the knightly orders obselete.

bluemage
01-04-2012, 14:09
The thing is only the riders are making supporting attacks and its the mounts, not the riders that do most of the damage.

Gaargod
01-04-2012, 14:58
Yup. What people are forgetting with Necroknights is that they get their 2 S4 (5 in charge) KB attacks via the riders. Demigryphs only get one S4 (6 on charge) attack via riders. That makes Necroknights with ranks a lot more scary. Mournfangs get their A3 S4 riders (or S6, if you've gone for GW).

For demigryphs, you're paying an extra 174pts just to get a second rank, who'll add at best 3 S6 attacks. +1 rank is nice, and obviously they can soak up casualties, but they actually only add very little damage. You don't get your stomps or your demigryph attacks, which is basically all your damage. The knights are really just there to provide an armour save!

oldWitheredCorpse
01-04-2012, 21:46
The knights are really just there to provide an armour save!

As GW presented the knights on top "Occasionally, they might even get to kill something!"

Reiko321
02-04-2012, 01:54
So what exactly do Monstrous Cav get to do via the FAQ giving them "Monstrous Support"?

The actual rule pertains to monstrous infantry (which wouldn't apply), and the FAQ gives that to the monstrous cav too... and the FAQ adds a "Futhermore..." rule that allows the rider extra attacks too.

But if the mount simply gets the rule, and the rule's exact wording hasn't changed, then it would be pointless right?

Anyone wanna help clear it up?

forgottenlor
02-04-2012, 06:15
Only the rider gets a support attack as has been stated. I think 5 or 6 is a good number (as an Ogre & Tomb Kings player) and here is why. First the ablative wound(s) is nice, because these guys are missle magnets. The extra rank is not important. What is that it gives you the flexability to run them 5 or 6 wide (if charging a horde) or 4 wide with 2 in the back to get maxium damage in on a standard unit or if you don't need the space you can always run them 2X3. As I said it makes losing 1 or 2 no real problem either and makes it more difficult for your opponent to get points for the unit.

Reiko321
02-04-2012, 06:28
The rider has always received his support attack, that was never in question.

Edit: I seem to have misread where the "" started and ended. The capslock print of the FAQ entry represents the title and the rest says that the rider is the only one to get their full attacks. Nothing more and nothing less.

Boo.

Morax
02-04-2012, 20:26
Ideal size for monsterous cav? Depends on the unit in question.

Necro knights, 6-10
Mournfang cav, 4-6
Demigryph cav, 4-5

Where the Necro knights and mournfang cav benefit from additional ranks because of the monsterous support rule, the demigryph cav do not. Single ranks of them will therefore be the way to go. In an empire army the will be used as hard hitting flankers with good saves and impressive wounds. A unit of 4 will be able to put enough hurt out to support a frontal charge of state troops where the rest of the list may not.

DivineVisitor
02-04-2012, 22:12
I'l certainly be trying out a unit of 5 in my armies. Don't see much point in using them in two ranks so 5 wide it is.

Jericho
02-04-2012, 22:25
If you're building an army list around stacking multiple buffs on a deathstar unit (ie, Lore of Light + Beasts or something like that), then maybe you can get away with multiple ranks of these guys. For the most part though, they don't get much benefit from the additional rank so 3-5 is going to be your best bet. Adding a 6th gives you a little bit extra durability but that's about it.

Wesser
03-04-2012, 10:31
Let's not forget that 3 Demigryphs alone are 6 orcs/ 7,5 humans wide. A fourth would make that 8 orcs/10 humans wide aka the size of a halberdier horde and it will be 3 orcs/ 3,75 humans in length.

Hardly very maneurable when its almost the size of a horde unit and with only WS4 and no significant support from any backranks Demigryphs arent rly a linebreaker. Can they be joined by warrior priests I wonder? That might help the output.

I'd say that the box of 3 is the optimal size (also for your wallet). In that size they'll make a terrific flanker.

DivineVisitor
03-04-2012, 10:40
Let's not forget that 3 Demigryphs alone are 6 orcs/ 7,5 humans wide. A fourth would make that 8 orcs/10 humans wide aka the size of a halberdier horde and it will be 3 orcs/ 3,75 humans in length.

Hardly very maneurable when its almost the size of a horde unit and with only WS4 and no significant support from any backranks Demigryphs arent rly a linebreaker. Can they be joined by warrior priests I wonder? That might help the output.

I'd say that the box of 3 is the optimal size (also for your wallet). In that size they'll make a terrific flanker.

Good point, perhaps 2 units of 3 will be more appropriate then.

Morax
03-04-2012, 12:22
Just reguarding Demigryph cav, you should be able to get 4 into combat with 4 orcs with corner to corner. More importantly they are a heavy threat on a flank and will be treated as such by any opponent that knows what they are. They are going to get the odd shot, warmachine, spell thrown their way. A minimum of 3 of them will be needed to have the effect you are looking for, an extra demigryph is needed to maintain effectiveness on the approach. I said 5 as the top end for units such as skaven slaves and other steadfast busting/to infinity units. The flanks of those units are huge and open to being charged by much wider units.

Demigryph Cav, 4-5

DaemonReign
03-04-2012, 12:50
I'm curious to know too, as I'm thinking of buying BloodCrushers of Khorne.

Being the first MC in the game Bloodcrushers are a little wierd. They are, above all, appearing to be increasingly 'bad' compared to MC introduced in 8th Ed Army Books. Before you buy them, I'd mind you to concider that whenever Daemons get an update they'll probably appear a bit different compared to the current 70pts 2W 1+(unit size) Rare Choice. My guesstimation is that they'll move to Special and get 3 wounds, with the drawback (of course) of the minimum unit size going up to 2+ or 3+.

Now the reason why I mention the unit size is because most of the 'competative' Daemon lists that I see using Crushers deploys them as 'single' models and use them (along side lone Fiends and Furies - two other units that really belong in the Special Section judging by 8th Ed precedence) so to be perfectly honest with you: If you field them any bigger than that, for any other purpose than WM-hunting/lone char hunting or general interference, then you may concider yourself safely having crossed over the line from 'competative' list-building to themed list-building.

That being said, units of 3-5 Crushers have their uses - albeit being a little hit-or-miss.
- They hit pretty damn hard. There's no denying. It's just they really don't hit hard enough, most of the time, to make up for only having 2 wounds and 4+ Armour Save. On occassion they'll steamroll over all opposition, an equally often they'll just be pointsinks.
- This midsized unit of Crushers also presents the enemy with some tough choices in terms of where to focus his shooting, in case you have a Greater Daemon in your Army. Whereas if you have no GD fielding Crushers is pretty much asking for all initial shooting to go in one direction.

All of this just amplifies, really, the bigger you go. 3 units of 6 is the most 'themed' Crusher set-up I've seen (you'll find the report in my sig btw) but that was a MonoKhorne Army.

I've always fantasized about Fielding a Horde of them (i.e. 18) just for the giggles of it. But I think it's a terrible idea competatively. :)

AngelofSorrow
03-04-2012, 14:21
I field my Bloodcrushers 5 wide. 4 with a herald. I throw them at whatever needs to be torn down. Mostly enemy heroes as even the mounts have KB.

I would also run other MC 5 wide to maximize damage potential.


Ready for eternal war!

Clarkson
03-04-2012, 16:02
Ideal size for monsterous cav? Depends on the unit in question.

Necro knights, 6-10
Mournfang cav, 4-6
Demigryph cav, 4-5

Where the Necro knights and mournfang cav benefit from additional ranks because of the monsterous support rule, the demigryph cav do not. Single ranks of them will therefore be the way to go. In an empire army the will be used as hard hitting flankers with good saves and impressive wounds. A unit of 4 will be able to put enough hurt out to support a frontal charge of state troops where the rest of the list may not.


4 for mournfang is overkill.. 2units of 3 is more than enough. 4 is just more wounds... but at 60pts thats another maneater or IG...

Morax
03-04-2012, 16:37
I find 3 mournfangs quite underwhelming. One inevitablly dies on the way to combat and 2 just don't pack enough punch to kill the targets then need to. At 200+ points they need to be part of the main line battle plan, not off chasing chaff and warmachines, they cost too much for that. I quite often find that that 4th model is needed for them to stick around to kill things. My opponents find that often to be the case too as I play empire and dwarves quite frequently.

Mati
05-04-2012, 10:23
I think the role you have for MC in your army should be defining your unit size - are they going to be a main damage dealer or just a support, character hunters, flankers? They are too expensive too be bought when not needed.

Von Wibble
05-04-2012, 10:41
What do people think in terms of command options for demigryph cavalry?

Morax
05-04-2012, 14:25
At leadership 8 I'd take a musician, it will surely help with the odd rally check when they go fleeing because one of them dies. Standard would depend on if they open up magical banners for the unit, likely but still unknown. As for the champion The extra strength 5 attack combined with taking the mount into duels may make him good for trying to get a few underdog bonuses. Worth giving a shot on the table at the least.