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Anaris
28-04-2006, 11:13
Had a chat with my local GW area manager yesterday, and he's given a couple of useful bits of info on the current playtesting of the new Eldar codex. He's pretty reliable when it comes to these things so I trust these facts are true.

The Eldar are currently being playtested with the Starcannon being reduced to 2 shots.

The Wraithlord is being tested in two forms. One has it at it's current stats but restricted to a 0-1 choice. The other has it's Toughness reduced to 7.

No word on the supposed Shuriken Cannon being reclassed as Rending though.

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=92295

Salt and Pepper optional.

Tarquinn
28-04-2006, 11:18
Hmm... I prefer the first Wraithlord option. Although I think it is the less likely one.

The Judge
28-04-2006, 11:21
I would prefer to keep a small number (one) of hard Wraithlords than a tonne of T7 ones. If they were T7 I'd hope they improve it's armour save...

Orbital
28-04-2006, 11:26
Let's remember though: Playtesting is NOT the same as a confirmation that it'll be in the codex. All of what's described above might really be happening in tests at the moment, but may never actually appear in the codex.

Just trying to prevent ulcers and stress-related ailments. :)

dodo129
28-04-2006, 11:26
i think it should be faster. as an eldar player, if you took it down to T7 but gave it a 12" charge i think it would actually be better. it would be fairer and more fluffy from all sides.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 11:27
i think it should be faster. as an eldar player, if you took it down to T7 but gave it a 12" charge i think it would actually be better. it would be fairer and more fluffy from all sides.

How is that fairer (and who is it fairer to)? And how is that more fluffy?

The Judge
28-04-2006, 11:30
Well fluffwise it would be acceptable to give it fleet of foot, but then following the fluff we'd have to break out the movie-marines.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 11:32
Why is it fluffy to give something with a 3+ save "Fleet Of Foot" when none of the other 3+ save units get that?

DarkstarSabre
28-04-2006, 11:32
i think it should be faster. as an eldar player, if you took it down to T7 but gave it a 12" charge i think it would actually be better. it would be fairer and more fluffy from all sides.


....yeah.....I have some swampland to sell you.

If you want to go by that approach then make it strike at I1 in combat as it is wielding powerfists- even the codex entry states as such and there are no rules for Monstrous Creatures ignoring the I1 powerfist penalty....

Seriously, I much prefer the 0-1 as that would a) make sense background wise (these are the spirits of revered ancestors you're using) and b) would actually mean than on average Iyanden forces would have more wraithlords as they should.

Dreachon
28-04-2006, 11:32
IF WL are allowed to much so fast in the codex do you have any idea how much tyranid players are gonna scream for about the carnifex since it costs a lot more points, therefor it's almost garantueed not to happen.

Messiah
28-04-2006, 11:37
Why is it fluffy to give something with a 3+ save "Fleet Of Foot" when none of the other 3+ save units get that?

Its got a pretty wide stride, since its so big?

Anyway, Id rather they increased the point cost instead of restricting it..

Orbital
28-04-2006, 11:38
As would I. The stats of the Wraithlord are perfect. The points cost could go up and it'd still be perfect.

LostTemplar
28-04-2006, 11:41
A limitation of 0-1 would be good. However, a tad too restrictive. I'd venture to say 0 -1 per Wraithguard Unit chosen. Why? Look at Yiaden. Thats how they have it. And thats how it should be, in my view.

Starcannon being reduced to 2 shots, or being tested upon such a premise is a good idea. I'm still up for an actual AP3 removal of all plasma weaponery, but I can live with being only 2 shots.

Seeing as it is amazingly good when compared to the other Eldar Weapon options, other than the dark lace... i suppose it makes sense.

Venkh
28-04-2006, 11:58
Theres just no way they would restrict the wraithlord to 1 per army.

1. They just built a new plastic mould for the thing - they want to sell more than 1 to each player.
2. They would annoy all the eldar players who own 3 of the old ones.
3. It would be too radical a change from the old to the new. There have been no such radical changes in any of the new books so far.

T7 - Plausible
SC 2 shots - Plausible although this nerfs it down to a long ranged plasma gun for the price of a cannon. Not too good.

leonmallett
28-04-2006, 12:09
Agree with Venkh that ther is no way that they would do a 0-1 choice in plastic as the Wraithlord is going to be.
I'd like to see Starcannon at Heavy 2.
Any word on Shuriken catapults getting a longer range (eg 18") as opposed to the useless 12" currently?
And anything to allow Aspect squads to assult from vehicles? Seems ludicrous that marines are the only army now that can do this, and a feleet/martial race cannot...

Varath- Lord Impaler
28-04-2006, 12:11
Since when can Marines do that?

If Marines could assault from Vehicles i'd love my razorback squads even more.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 12:14
It's kind of a trick of the wording.

Certain close-topped vehicles allow you to assault when disembarking after the vehicle moved. I believe (though I'm not sure) this is because of something called an "assault ramp". The only vehicle I know that has one is a Land Raider. Space Marines have Land Raiders. Hence Space Marines can do it.

Harky
28-04-2006, 12:17
Yup, I believe the only enclosed vehicle that can do that is the Land Raider. I always thought that was a bit of a spit in the eye for non-marine players, I mean it's one of the toughest vehicles, it can transport 10 terminators and they can assaoult on the turn they disembark. I give it a big WTF!

Blessed Knight
28-04-2006, 12:20
not forgetting Ork Trukks and Dark Eldar...

all open topped transports allow assaults.

Yes the LR and LRC have assault ramps but they do cost a big chunk of points and they are an assault tank after all.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 12:20
The "Can Assault From Assault Ramp" rule is stupid because the only vehicle that has it is a Land Raider.

It's sort of like standing at the head of the class and saying "The only kids who doesn't have detention today are kids named Jeff Martin and are sitting in the third row and wearing a green T shirt".

Well, you might as well just say "Jeff Martin", for all the difference it makes.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 12:21
not forgetting Ork Trukks and Dark Eldar...

all open topped transports allow assaults.

Eldar don't have any of those.

We're just talking Eldar vehicles right now.

Venkh
28-04-2006, 12:26
Unless there is a brand new vehicle on the cards i would say that there is 0% chance of eldar vehicles getting assault ramps.

Perhaps we could have one of those mobile wraithgate thingies?

Harky
28-04-2006, 12:40
A warp portal device could be made into a one use only and one per army vehicle upgrade perhaps.

chrishin
28-04-2006, 12:43
Yup, I believe the only enclosed vehicle that can do that is the Land Raider. I always thought that was a bit of a spit in the eye for non-marine players, I mean it's one of the toughest vehicles, it can transport 10 terminators and they can assaoult on the turn they disembark. I give it a big WTF!
actually much less. 10 is for normal marines in power armour.

Smoking Frog
28-04-2006, 12:46
After hearing all this I'm just hoping I wont end up using the codex as a coaster.

Still though, I'm keepin' the faith.

Blessed Knight
28-04-2006, 12:49
Eldar don't have any of those.

We're just talking Eldar vehicles right now.

I was responding to the following...


And anything to allow Aspect squads to assult from vehicles? Seems ludicrous that marines are the only army now that can do this, and a feleet/martial race cannot...

Doesn't mention closed top vehicles or Eldar only. I was making the point that marines aren't the only army able to assault from a moving vehicle.

;)

Harky
28-04-2006, 12:55
actually much less. 10 is for normal marines in power armour.

Isn't it 10 terminators or 15 (20?) normal space marines?

spispopd
28-04-2006, 12:59
The "Can Assault From Assault Ramp" rule is stupid because the only vehicle that has it is a Land Raider.

It's sort of like standing at the head of the class and saying "The only kids who doesn't have detention today are kids named Jeff Martin and are sitting in the third row and wearing a green T shirt".

Well, you might as well just say "Jeff Martin", for all the difference it makes.

It may be stupid from the fluff viewpoint, but in terms of game balance it makes sense. I didn't know many people in the 3rd edition who used Land Raiders. The point cost is ridiculously high (more than a Necron Monolith for a considerably weaker vehicle), and in the 3rd edition any close combat squad could assault from a dirt cheap Rhino, which made those 250+ point Land Raiders a very rare sight. Now that it actually has an advantage over cheaper transport vehicles I've begun to see some people start using Land Raiders - still not many, but some.

It would be nice to see some sort of assault ramps for Eldar vehicles, but I really doubt that's going to happen. I think that the best thing we can hope for is a slight point cost reduction on the Wave Serpent, and that's it.



Isn't it 10 terminators or 15 (20?) normal space marines?


10 power armoured Marines or 5 Termies for a normal Land Raider, 15 power armoured or 8 Termies for a Crusader.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 13:05
I was responding to the following...

"And anything to allow Aspect squads to assult from vehicles? Seems ludicrous that marines are the only army now that can do this, and a feleet/martial race cannot..."

Doesn't mention closed top vehicles or Eldar only. I was making the point that marines aren't the only army able to assault from a moving vehicle.

;)

Yeah, sorry. When he asked about "Aspect Warriors" in a thread called "Eldar Codex Playtesting", I just assumed we were talking about Eldar. Stupid me.


After hearing all this I'm just hoping I wont end up using the codex as a coaster.

Don't panic. Playtesting is definitely the time to try out all the ideas, even the nutty ones. Doesn't mean they'll make it to the codex; it just means they're being taken out for a spin.


It may be stupid from the fluff viewpoint, but in terms of game balance it makes sense.

You said a few things about 3rd ed, but not about current rules or codices. Does the rule make sense to you now?

To be fair, however, I wasn't talking about the rule; just the wording. Honestly, I'm actually sort of indifferent to the rule itsel.

brimmstorm
28-04-2006, 13:15
I'm an Eldar player and even I call bs on the t8 Wraithlord. They could knock a toughness off and raise the cost some and that would be fine by me. Just don't restrict them alot of Eldar players would be very upset because they have all those Wraithlords and won't be able to use them as much. If they restrict Wraithlords then they should have restricted Dreadnaughts.

-brimmstorm

Spacker
28-04-2006, 13:32
Unless there is a brand new vehicle on the cards i would say that there is 0% chance of eldar vehicles getting assault ramps.


I can always hope that the VDR will get an update for 4th edition that includes assault ramps as an option - at least then my Eldar will have a bit more fun :P

Nexto
28-04-2006, 13:40
Some month ago, there were some rumours that playtesting was finished some time ago.

So why these rumours now? It's a bit too late for such drastic changes, isn't it ?

Ironhand
28-04-2006, 13:48
Umm...the standard Landraider can only carry 5 Terminators or 10 ordinary troops.

Forbiddenknowledge
28-04-2006, 13:49
An assault ramp or an exarch upgrade that allows them to assault would be perfect, as you can't tell me scorps or banshees would just sit their when they disembark? Please, they are much more likely than Termies to go charging out considering the bulky armour, compared with the eldar speed. Only on the serpent though - giving it to the falcon would be a bit much.

Blessed Knight
28-04-2006, 13:50
Yeah, sorry. When he asked about "Aspect Warriors" in a thread called "Eldar Codex Playtesting", I just assumed we were talking about Eldar. Stupid me.


Apology accepted. Can't allow Eldar fans to make incorrect statements can we? now If they had said:

...anything to allow Aspect squads to assult from enclosed vehicles...

I wouldn't have needed to correct them, would I?

Isn't Fleet enough? Eldar players in Manchester don't stuggle getting their combat units into assault. Eldar place pretty high in GT's. They can't be at that much of a disadvantage if Brand new codices, struggle against the Oldest GW army book at comp level.

Ironhand
28-04-2006, 13:50
That 0-1 limitation on Wraithlords has popped up before in the rumor mill, so there might be something to it.

We'll find out come November.

TaintedSpam
28-04-2006, 13:54
The problem I have with a T7 Wraithlord is that it can then be damaged by standard arms. I really don't think a bolter or a marine with a knife in CC should be able to hurt a Wraithlord. If it does happen, I hope it gets a 2+ save and moves a bit faster.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 13:55
Eldar players in Manchester don't stuggle getting their combat units into assault.

Personally, I'm ok with the current setup. It demands a bit more tactical thought from me, but... I still get the job done.

Blessed Knight
28-04-2006, 14:02
Personally, I'm ok with the current setup. It demands a bit more tactical thought from me, but... I still get the job done.

yep. The vehicle wargear, combined with the use of speed and skimmers general toughness means Eldar can disembark safely enough the following turn with an 8" basic move supported by fleet and assault.

They don't need to assault from enclosed vehicles.

Unfortunately for the Non Eldar players in Manchester, Most Eldar users in the area are GT vets with full array of Pixie tricks.

Delicious Soy
28-04-2006, 14:05
I wouldn't really care about a 0-1 on the wraithlord, nor a points increase, in an Eldar army its worth its weight in gold as a flank anchor and deterrent/assault trap that makes it perfect for escorting guardians.

I'm not really feeling a two shot starcannon, unless theres a points discount 50 pts a hit isn't really worth it IMO, the key to the starcannon debate personally has always been to mae othe weapons more attractive (and differentiate between the Scatter Laser and Shuriken cannon more).

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:09
Not to take the thread too far off topic, but I'd like to add that, hey... sometimes you can't assault when you want to. That's part of the game. Sometimes you can't assault. Sometimes you can't move. Sometimes you can't shoot. Sometimes you don't have line of sight. Sometimes a unit doesn't get a save. Sometimes a unit can't rally. That's how the game goes; it's not a game if those things aren't risks. I sometimes get the impression that if Space Marines can do something Eldar can't then certain players feel the rules are broken. Similarly, if an Eldar player can't pull off the astonishing massacre they would like to see, they assume the unit needs fixing. The game is as much about working against the challenges as it is playing the strengths. Remember: Some of what you want to do with your army is supposed to be hard, and some of it is supposed to be extremely hard... even if that one thing isn't necessarily hard for the other guy's army. That's how the game works.

Keichi246
28-04-2006, 14:09
Isn't it 10 terminators or 15 (20?) normal space marines?

Nope -

Land Raider - Transport Capacity - 10 "normal" Space Marines, or 5 in Terminator armor.
Land Raider Crusader - 15 "normal" Space Marines, or 8 in Terminator armor.

Back on topic:

I am utterly ambivalent on the topic of Wraithlords. I haven't been "OMG they are too tough!" about them for years (though I will admit - seeing two of them stomp their way through a tactical squad back in 3rd was terribly depressing... ).

Multiples of them them in a low point game is kinda wrong - but that is a "player issue" - not necessarily a codex issue. (most armies can cause a similar problem if they load up on one particular Force Org choice in a low points cost game) I'd lean towards the "raise the cost" camp myself ; but frankly - I'll let the Games Devs make the choice...

About charging from a Wave Serpent. I'll admit - personally I hated the the guaranteed 2nd turn charge. At least with the Land Raider - it deploys as a Heavy support choice so you know exactly where it is. Careful deployment can keep you away from it - so at best you'll have a turn 3 charge (giving you an OK chance to blow the durn thing.) And they are so expensive that the chances of seeing more than one Land Raider are so low as to be non-existent.

Eldar Wave Serpents are fast, cheaper than a Land Raider, and relatively durable. Shutting down a concerted rush by two or more is VERY, VERY hard. Because they can "deploy later", because they move so fast, - you *can't* avoid a turn 2 close combat unless you kill them all - which can be very difficult and is definitely terribly annoying for non power armored armies like IG and Tau. :(

Personally, I still think it is unnecessary to make it possible to assault out of the Wave Serpent. My regular Eldar opponent has simply adjusted his tactics; understanding that to get into Close combat - he has to risk either the Wave Serpent in that 12-18" range or the troops (normally Fortuned and in cover). He has to measure risk versus reward - which frankly - is the way *all* armies are supposed to be balanced... (and yes - he can still win with his Eldar)

Dave Gaidasz

BloodiedSword
28-04-2006, 14:09
The thing that makes me confused about Wraithlords is why my Iyanden can take fewer of them than a normal Eldar army, and not only that but when I do take one I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking Wraithguard alongside it..

I don't think carrying this on to normal Eldar as the answer though. First, I expect Wraithguard to be useful in the new Codex, and secondly it would make Iyanden lose its uniqueness.

A bit points boost is in order - 100 pts base sounds like a good start to me, and combined a more balanced weapon selection this should be enough. The 0-1 limit doesn't sound too good, but people have been conjecturing that a 0-1 per 750 or 1000 pts limit might be in order..

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:11
Personally, I still think it is unnecessary to make it possible to assault out of the Wave Serpent.

It is. Just don't move the Wave Serpent first. :)

TheShadow3s
28-04-2006, 14:14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keichi246
Personally, I still think it is unnecessary to make it possible to assault out of the Wave Serpent.


It is. Just don't move the Wave Serpent first.
Think it would be terribly overpowerd if troops could assault out of wave-serpents
( know it for sure , my banshees would kill any squad if this happens )

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:14
The thing that makes me confused about Wraithlords is why my Iyanden can take fewer of them than a normal Eldar army, and not only that but when I do take one I have to shoot myself in the foot by taking Wraithguard alongside it..

Well, here's the thing: As an Iyanden player I have to take a squad of Wraithguard for every Wraithlord I take. Other lists don't have to do this, so it seems like an unfair tax, yes? Well, aside from the fact that it's very fluffy for Iyanden to do it this way, the real benefit is that all my Heavy Support slots are still open. A guy who takes three Wraithlords in a non-Iyanden army isn't going to pester you with any other heavies. Me? I have two Wraithlords in my 1700 point list... and I still have a unit of 3 War Walkers and a unit of 3 D-Cannons. If I wanted to also take a Falcon or Dark Reapers, I still could. I could even take another Wraithlord if I didn't run out of points for the Wraithguard. The other player? Once he's taken all 3 Wraithlords, he's out. Me? I'm just getting started.

Sildani
28-04-2006, 14:18
Quite. Hell, you can still move the Serpent 12", disembark, and shoot at full effect - unit and Serpent both! I like the rules and the Serpent just as they are.

The Iyanden list lets you play the Eldar as what they usually aren't - slow(er) and tough as nails. You pay for it, of course, but it's fun, and appeals to tank-lovers like myself.

Kaldanesh
28-04-2006, 14:18
in response to what's been posted thus far:

I think Toughness 7 for the Wraithlord would be a bad idea. As others have said this means that it is now vulnerable to S4 attacks which would make them far too perishable. Now if they were T7 with a 2+ save, I could potentially see this as a compromise. As orbital has said I think the Wraithlord's statline is perfect. If they upped the points cost so be it. Now it has also been rumored by reliable sources in other threads on this forum that wraithlord may be getting a new weapon fit in the form of a sword and shield. Rumor also has it that this shield may confer some Inv save which could also supplement the Wraithlord's resilience were its Toughness to be lowered. I don't think Fleet makes much sense, nor does a 12" charge, nut that's just my opinion.

As far as the 0-1 restriction goes, I too think that this would annoy far too many people who have multiple wraithlords already. Plus, with the advent of a new plastic kit I'd find it hard to believe that such a hot new product would be restricted to one per army with the exception of Iyanden. Then again they just did a Giant in plastic too. I think some sort of restriction on their number is not entirely unreasonable as as others have said these are venerated heroes that are only called upon in times of desperation.

Remember all is speculation til you see it in print...

Kaldanesh

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:20
Quite. Hell, you can still move the Serpent 12", disembark, and shoot at full effect - unit and Serpent both! I like the rules and the Serpent just as they are.

Exactly! There's no law which says you have to put assaulters in there.

Sai-Lauren
28-04-2006, 14:23
Think it would be terribly overpowerd if troops could assault out of wave-serpents
( know it for sure , my banshees would kill any squad if this happens )
Well, one thing I've said before that I would like to see is deploy/assault into a Tank Shocked unit - you get the risk that the transport gets taken out on it's way in, but the enemy unit should be in enough disarray to allow your troops out and into contact before they can respond.
Also, kind of limits it to a third turn assault if the transport actually has to reach the unit too, unless your opponent is very obliging ;)

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 14:24
I understand one of the options was to make starcannons STR 7 HVY 2 AP 2. They where looking at making them like uber autocannons rather than uber heavy bolters. This they hoped would make eldar players choose between loads of shots (ie scatter laser), many shots (ie shuriken cannon) and a couple of shots (ie star cannon) with the strength and AP getting better for less shots. Hopefully making the star cannons a less compulsory choice and making eldar players think more about there choices.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:26
i understand one of the options was to make starcannons STR 7 HVY 2 AP 2 as they where looking at making them like uber autocannons rather than uber heavy bolters and making eldar players choose between loads of shots ie scatter laser many shots ie shuriken cannon and a couple of shots ie star cannon with the strength and AP getting better for less shots making the star cannons a less compulsory choice and making eldar players think more about there choices.

That sentence gave me a nosebleed.

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 14:26
sai lauren that would fit fluff for wave serpents nicely as originaly in epic they used to fire there energy fields forward as a disruptive weapon and that method of tank shock assault would represent that nicely.

Venkh
28-04-2006, 14:28
I dont think that assaulting from transports is a big deal for most eldar players.

Allowing this from skimmer vehicles would be a bit overpowering allowing assaults from behind terrain etc

I use fleet to get my banshees into assault and my scorps infiltrate. I suspect that this is true of many other players as well.

Rgds

Sildani
28-04-2006, 14:30
IF the sword-and-shield thing is true, then I MIGHT be able to see the 'Lord getting Fleet. Reason being, it will have almost no ranged weaponry, so it will need to close into an assault quickly, without letting the unit it's chasing simply move back out of its way.

Unless... here's your 'Lord, right? Sword and invulnerable-save shield. No Fleet. You sic him on yonder Devastator squad. They unload on him, but T 8 and his invulnerable (4+?) keep him safe. Next turn, same. Next turn, the Dev's controller gets nervous and moves them back, out of charge range. Voila - two turns of shooting wasted (probably) that were not sent after your tanks, and now they can't shoot at all, unless they WANT the 'Lord to carve them up.

Hmm...

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:30
Ok. Assaulting out of a Wave Serpent.

Deploy your wave Serpent 12" in, then move 12" in turn one. Your assaulters hop out 2", move 6" and (let's say they're lucky) fleet of foot 6". They then charge and move another 6".

At this point they are within 4" of the opposite side of the table... IN TURN ONE!

Believe me. We don't want this.

Sildani
28-04-2006, 14:32
No. I, for one, do not. It's too good.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:34
Dark Eldar can do this with their skiffs... but just being a Dark Eldar out in the open comes with its own set of terrifying risks. Believe me; if you've got the guts to get into a Raider and drive towards the enemy, you deserve that assault move.

Sildani
28-04-2006, 14:36
Harlequins might get it too, if the Venom comes over with them to the new Codex. Hopefully, it will be restricted to Harlequins ONLY, as I'd hate to see Striking Scorpions on a Venom... but, boy, I'd be tempted.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 14:36
Think it would be terribly overpowerd if troops could assault out of wave-serpents
( know it for sure , my banshees would kill any squad if this happens )

Although a lot of the banshees cost was the fact that they could assault from the transport from 3rd.

Limited Mr. WL: I wouldn't mind the limit based on points. It makes sense and I've allways said it would not be a bad idea. I really don't care because I never used 3. At most 2 and at least in games of 1500+ points. Another think you have to remember is that a Wraithlord a lone can not win you the game. People in my area ignore the wraithlords and kill off all my units and tanks. This is a good idea because the units and tanks are what can hold ojectives and the WL can not. At best be can kill 1-2 guys a turn. Plus he is far to slow to be that mush of a worry. I wouldn't mind if they did a limit of 0-2 or 0-1 but put him in unit of 1-2.

T7 WL: That's just dumb. Now the all ready larger list of thanks that can kill him (compared to the dread) just about doubled. Even with a 2+ he will still get knocked down fast. Even with a 2+ save he will still get shot and wounded by all the wapeons that nagate his save anyway because most of them are still ap2 Just that it would be easier to wound him with them. Str 9 (lascannons) needs a 2+ nagate saves, Str8 (missle launchers, Melti) needs 3+ about half nagate save, Str7 (plasma, gun, rifle, pistol (and you know marines, Tau, and dark eldar can get a lot of it)) need 4+ nagate save.

Assaulting from transports: If we pay enough for it why not? It would make no different, the only units that would be getting this or likely to want this are Banshees and Storm Guardians. I don't think Scorpions will get it because of the armor and lack of FOF. In 3rd ed Banshees were priced in the way that they were able to jump out a transport Fleet, and then assault. Without this they are just overpriced glowing sword bolt magnets.

Starcannon Heavy 2: WTF? I hope that is a joke. Unless the cost goes down this weapon will never make its worth back. By making it Heavy 2 they just killed it compared to any other heavy Plasma based weapon in the game. Cannon and the dark eldar version will be far better then this weapon. The main thing should be improveing the other heavy weapons to make them look better options. So far there is a no brainer option to just take the star cannon because it had the best chances to kill.

About Eldar winning turnys: You know the majority of players are Marines right? The easiest thing eldar players have to do is build an anti-marine based army and they will win. That is why they do so well. If you look at the list you will see. Also most eldar players just want there other units to be better options.

Jon_Irenicus
28-04-2006, 14:36
So, basically, everyone protests because Starcannons cost 45 points or so to field in a Guardian squad thatīs mininum 5, who have the same survival rate as cows in hurricanes.
Is it because of it being Marine killers? What of the heavy bolter, then? Donīt they *hit* better and outright *kill* better? Not to mention other perks like the squad firing up to 24".
But Iīve never seen it reduced in price or hability. And Iīm usually a Marine player.
Guess next time someone has to do some complaining, just convince someone with a SM army. Heīll convince his buddies and since theyīre a majority GW will have no option but to concede :)

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:39
Harlequins might get it too, if the Venom comes over with them to the new Codex. Hopefully, it will be restricted to Harlequins ONLY, as I'd hate to see Striking Scorpions on a Venom... but, boy, I'd be tempted.

The great thing about the Venom: You can only put 6 passengers in... and it's even more flimsy than a Raider! This way, no-one can ever dare to call you cheesy. They're more likely to blow your ass off the map instead.

If they fail, however... it's party time. :)


Although a lot of the banshees cost was the fact that they could assault from the transport from 3rd.

I have to say I think that's conjecture... unless you have a quote from Gav Thorpe saying this.

Sildani
28-04-2006, 14:40
I don't like the fact that a cheap and widely-available weapon can simply ignore my expensive Aspect Warriors' armor saves, but I try to play around it.

As for Banshees' costs: it's still fair, I think, for a unit armed with power swords and pistols that can Fleet and always strikes first in the first round. I concede your point, but I still don't think they're overpriced.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:43
So, basically, everyone protests because Starcannons cost 45 points or so to field in a Guardian squad thatīs mininum 5, who have the same survival rate as cows in hurricanes... is it because of it being Marine killers?

Starcannons aren't even that; they're killers of Marines who don't take cover. Sort of like cows in hurricanes. I swear to God... the Starcannon is as lethal as it is because Marines think everyone has to grab some cover but them.

TheShadow3s
28-04-2006, 14:44
A Little point drop would be ok , and that executioner should be free and give them other powers .
Str 7 Ap2 Hvy 2 Starcannons ?
give it 1 extra strenght and one less shot rubbish , I like em how htey are doesnt sounds overpowerd to me ( i play saim-hann that could be the problem)

Orbital
28-04-2006, 14:49
I did a mess of complicated math on this recently (and yeah, I'll make it available if you're interested), and came up with a small formula: Every 32.5 poins you spend on Starcannons kills 7.5 Marines who aren't in cover per game. For a Scatter Laser, it's 2.46. Yet, points invested in Scatter Lasers kills more Orks than a Starcannon does (you have to spend 21.6 points on Scatter Lasers to kill 7.6 Orks per game, whereas you have to spend 32.5 on Starcannons to get the same result).

My point is that nerfing of the Starcannon might be done in a way to slightly trim the edge off the Starcannon points-to-kills ratio. Instead of thinking fewer shots, less strength or worse AP... maybe start for a points-to-kills goal and go with that.

Of course, it's all academic. The GW folks will do what they do.

spispopd
28-04-2006, 14:51
I understand one of the options was to make starcannons STR 7 HVY 2 AP 2.

Wouldn't like this myself, as they wouldn't count as defensive weapons anymore. I'd be fine with S6 AP2 HVY2 if the point cost was lowered, or keep the stats and point cost as they are and limit its availability somehow.

Underway
28-04-2006, 14:52
The way I assault out of a vehicle is this. Drive 24" right up in the face of a devestator squad. Dare them to shoot me. If they move away they cannot shoot. If they shoot then they usually fail to do much damage. Next turn jump out with banshee's, fleet and assault, while moving the WS to block counter assaults. Done and done turn two.

Risk vs reward.

The other tactic is combined DA and Storm guardian shake and bake squad. 12" WS drive up. Both squads jump out. Guardians and Warlock with destructor shoot 2 flamer and one destructor template at the enemy unit. Other shoot pistols. DA shoot 20 str 4 BS 4 shots at the enemy squad. IF they are still alive there is not much left, even marines. Storm guardians can usually take them if they assault back and who cares if the 100pts or so they cost go down anyways? Not me to much.

I also do this with 10 Guardian defenders in WS. The whole list is armoured cav... Jumping out and shooting followed by a next turn charge with assault troops is often a great tactic, and banshees fleet ensures that most enemy units can't just move out of charge range and rapid fire with impunity.

Homer S
28-04-2006, 14:59
Ok. Assaulting out of a Wave Serpent.

Deploy your wave Serpent 12" in, then move 12" in turn one. Your assaulters hop out 2", move 6" and (let's say they're lucky) fleet of foot 6". They then charge and move another 6".

At this point they are within 4" of the opposite side of the table... IN TURN ONE!

Believe me. We don't want this.

One small item... the exit from the Wave Serpent is 2" in the wrong direction, unless you are turning to a different facing.

Also, I seem to never get 6" out of fleet, 3-4 is more like it for me. Silly dice!

Still... the result is assaulters about 8" of opposite side of a 48" table. Deep strikers can't do this. Infiltrate can get close, with poor deployment on your opponent's part.

I think the best you can do is 12" deploy, 24" boost, jump out on turn 2 then 13-18" move with normal, fleet and assault. That gets you 49-54" at assault on turn 2! Deep strikers still can't touch this, if they enter at all, as they can't move on the deployment turn. Only downside is they lose a turn of shooting.

Homer Out

Blessed Knight
28-04-2006, 15:02
I think the biggest problem people have with the star cannon is that it is also classed as anti personel, so can shoot in conjunction with heavy weapons. The extra strength would remove that classification whilst removing a shot would reduce its effectiveness against MC's.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:05
Adding one point of Strength to the Starcannon would certainly nerf the Falcon.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:06
The way I assault out of a vehicle is this. Drive 24" right up in the face of a devestator squad. Dare them to shoot me.

Four heavy weapons from just one squad? Even if no other squad is helping... you're very brave. Braver than me :)

If those heavy weapons are Heavy Bolters, though... now you're makin' hay!

DarkstarSabre
28-04-2006, 15:07
It's kind of a trick of the wording.

Certain close-topped vehicles allow you to assault when disembarking after the vehicle moved. I believe (though I'm not sure) this is because of something called an "assault ramp". The only vehicle I know that has one is a Land Raider. Space Marines have Land Raiders. Hence Space Marines can do it.

As can Chaos and Daemonhunters.

Orks and Dark Eldar come and pile onto you out of every damn vehicle in their army.

And Orks could take Land Raiders too if they wanted....

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:07
Btw, Homer S: I misread what you wrote and thought you'd said something you didn't. I wrote up a reply and I'm glad I re-read your post before I posted it... because I would have embarrassed myself to death.

So here's an apology for the thing I almost said about your post. That was a close one. :)

Keichi246
28-04-2006, 15:09
Starcannons aren't even that; they're killers of Marines who don't take cover. Sort of like cows in hurricanes. I swear to God... the Starcannon is as lethal as it is because Marines think everyone has to grab some cover but them.

Actually - my Dark Angels hug cover like it is long lost lover...
(no Brokeback Mountain jokes, please... :p )

My only beef with the Starcannon is it's versatility...

It has a high enough rate of fire to be good as an anti-horde weapon.
It has a high enough AP to be an anti-heavy infantry weapon.
It has a high enough strength (and Rate of fire) to be an acceptable anti- light vehicle platform.

It's the swiss army knife of the Eldar - so you don't NEED to take anything else. That's the power of the Starcannon Army of Doom(tm). The only role you are seriously missing is the long range anti-armor - which can be filled with a couple Brightlances. Because of Starcannon's versatility - you can see it alot in "take all comers builds."

The problem with all the comparisons Eldar players make to heavy bolters is that if I take a heavy bolter - I have pretty much written off ranged anti-vehicle capabilties (except against the absolutely lightest vehicles). You don't see as many heavy bolters in "take all comers" builds - because it DOESN'T have that versatility...

Ah well - This is an old argument - no one will change opinions now - especially with a new codex arround the corner - I will just wait and see till then...

Dave Gaidasz

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:09
As can Chaos and Daemonhunters.

Orks and Dark Eldar come and pile onto you out of every damn vehicle in their army.

And Orks could take Land Raiders too if they wanted....

Open-topped vehicles are a different story. Using them is begging for trouble... so the assault you get is a nice reward for the hair-raising faith you must have to take them.

I didn't know Orks could take Land Raiders. I guess the kind of hassles and dangers that come from looting might balance out the power that gives them.

Anyhow... assault ramps. I only know of one vehicle that's got 'em.

SnakeEyes
28-04-2006, 15:10
I swear to God... the Starcannon is as lethal as it is because Marines think everyone has to grab some cover but them.

LOL, well put. A little cover goes a long way, most marine players never seem to grasp the concept. Though, in all fairness, I think the fault lies wit GW redoning how armour modifers worked from 2nd to 3d ed. Bad move imho.

On the subject of assaulting from vehicles. A good option would be the tempest (I think). It's an eldar transport from epic, with a built in warp gate, where troops teleport into battle through the gate. A novel idea, and would be a neat concept for 40K.

As for nerfing the starcannon. It wouldn't surprise me. Not at all. But I have a hard time giving marine players any credit to their objections since they get the rending ass.cannon. I'd happily exchange my BS3 starcannon, for a BS4 assault cannon any day. Any takers? No? Didn't think so.

Next time a marine players complains about the starcannon, I'll suggest we play a game where he can use BS3 starcannons where he would usually use ass.cannons, and vice verca. That just might shut him up.

I'd be fine with a 0-1 wraithlord option, but what would really be cool would be a customizable wraithlord, ala the carnifex. According to fluff, the wraithlord contains the spirit stone of an Eldar Hero. He could be an aspect warrior, a warlock, anything. Doubt it will ever happen though.

Oh, and I was also under the impression that playtesting was done. If they plan to release the codex in November, they don't have long to get it into print. Any big changes might require even more testing, not to mention maybe new models. No, I think it's a safe bet playtesting done by now. (Assuming a November release)

leonmallett
28-04-2006, 15:10
I was responding to the following...



Doesn't mention closed top vehicles or Eldar only. I was making the point that marines aren't the only army able to assault from a moving vehicle.

;)
You're right about my omission. I did intend to mean enclosed vehicles.

DarkstarSabre
28-04-2006, 15:14
Yep. Just one vehicle.

Curious derailing, the point you made earlier Orbital about why assaulting out of Eldar vehicles would be bad...sounds shockingly like Mr. Thorpe's first draft for the harlequin list that would've let them move fast and assault....

A bit borked. Especially when you consider what those assault units are capable of. So you're right. None of this silly namby pamby getting to within 4 inches of your opponents table edge by turn two...

Anyhow, back to wraithlords, eh?

0-1 does seem a bit excessive. But to be honest the problem is actually a fluff related one. I see 1000 point Alaitoc and Ulthwe armies with more Wraithlords than 1850 point Iyanden armies on average! Perhaps linking them to wraithguard, which are supposedly getting a revamp is the way to go.

0-1 per Wraithguard unit....hmm. That's work. It'd sell wraithguard too.

leonmallett
28-04-2006, 15:14
Not to take the thread too far off topic, but I'd like to add that, hey... sometimes you can't assault when you want to. That's part of the game. Sometimes you can't assault. Sometimes you can't move. Sometimes you can't shoot. Sometimes you don't have line of sight. Sometimes a unit doesn't get a save. Sometimes a unit can't rally. That's how the game goes; it's not a game if those things aren't risks. I sometimes get the impression that if Space Marines can do something Eldar can't then certain players feel the rules are broken. Similarly, if an Eldar player can't pull off the astonishing massacre they would like to see, they assume the unit needs fixing. The game is as much about working against the challenges as it is playing the strengths. Remember: Some of what you want to do with your army is supposed to be hard, and some of it is supposed to be extremely hard... even if that one thing isn't necessarily hard for the other guy's army. That's how the game works.

I don't actually play Eldar, I was just making an observation.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 15:14
The way I assault out of a vehicle is this. Drive 24" right up in the face of a devestator squad. Dare them to shoot me. If they move away they cannot shoot. If they shoot then they usually fail to do much damage. Next turn jump out with banshee's, fleet and assault, while moving the WS to block counter assaults. Done and done turn two.

Yeah but your opp will most likely have something that move faster then 6" then all they do is move units to the back door and laugh at you as you have to move. Having to pay double the price of a Rhino and still only have 1 access point is still dumb. I've lost a lot from that.

LostTemplar
28-04-2006, 15:19
Ye know what they should -really- do? Have Dark Eldar tanks in Eldar armies, and vice versa. That way some Eldar could charge after disembarking. But that'd be horribly powerfull, to allow Banshees to disembark from Raiders. :O

Very very awfull indeed.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:26
Actually - my Dark Angels hug cover like it is long lost lover... (no Brokeback Mountain jokes, please... :p )

Awesome. Good for you. When I hear this it makes me happy; dumb Marine players are what makes evil Eldar players goob out on Starcannons. Someone has to stop the insanity and, as long as you're not rewarding them with easy kills, you're part of the solution instead of the problem.

Well done. (golf clap)


My only beef with the Starcannon is it's versatility...
It has a high enough rate of fire to be good as an anti-horde weapon.

It is good as an anti-horde weapon. Oddly enough, it's not the best anti-horde weapon. That's the Scatter Laser.

p.s. Starcannon... I wish I knew how to quit you.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:26
Ye know what they should -really- do? Have Dark Eldar tanks in Eldar armies, and vice versa. That way some Eldar could charge after disembarking. But that'd be horribly powerfull, to allow Banshees to disembark from Raiders. :O

Very very awfull indeed.

I hope you feel dirty just for suggesting it.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 15:27
Ye know what they should -really- do? Have Dark Eldar tanks in Eldar armies, and vice versa. That way some Eldar could charge after disembarking. But that'd be horribly powerfull, to allow Banshees to disembark from Raiders. :O

Very very awfull indeed.

Not when witchs are more powerful in assault then Banshees. Half WS, Cheaper, Inv save, Agniser, And combat drugs.

Kahadras
28-04-2006, 15:27
0-1 does seem a bit excessive. But to be honest the problem is actually a fluff related one. I see 1000 point Alaitoc and Ulthwe armies with more Wraithlords than 1850 point Iyanden armies on average! Perhaps linking them to wraithguard, which are supposedly getting a revamp is the way to go.

0-1 per Wraithguard unit....hmm. That's work. It'd sell wraithguard too.

I agree with the idea. It balances Wraith constructs nicely and players will be forced to include a more well rounded selection rather than just going for Wraithlords all the time. Also I would like to see them strike last with their powerfists. At the present moment they have the best of both worlds IMO.

Kahadras

Orbital
28-04-2006, 15:35
I don't actually play Eldar, I was just making an observation.

Wasn't trying to aim that comment directly at you. No offense intended.


Curious derailing, the point you made earlier Orbital about why assaulting out of Eldar vehicles would be bad...sounds shockingly like Mr. Thorpe's first draft for the harlequin list that would've let them move fast and assault....

The thing I'd like to mention, though, is that when Thorpe did the CJ list for Harlequins, one *could* assault out of a Wave Serpent. The open-topped/closed-topped thing was a non-issue at the time.

Also, there's a big difference between a Venom and a Wave Serpent (and I'm a HUGE fan of the Venom, btw): The Venom can only carry 6 passengers, has crummy AV, almost no weaponry and can only take a holofield to defend itself with. Harlequins are playing a brave game every time they step into one... you gotta admire it.

LostTemplar
28-04-2006, 15:44
Not when witchs are more powerful in assault then Banshees. Half WS, Cheaper, Inv save, Agniser, And combat drugs.

The lack of powerweaposn makes these so called advantages, rather laughtable. Although i can see their strenght, they are -far- from being uber in the least.

Orbital: Yes I do! But Eldar are Eldar.

Makes little sense to seperate such technology from one kindred to the other. I can accept no soul stones, no powers and the need to better protect troops. But when ye want something fast...

A flying engine with some plates, which is what the Raider/Ravager is, does the work just fine.

lord_blackfang
28-04-2006, 15:53
Why is it fluffy to give something with a 3+ save "Fleet Of Foot" when none of the other 3+ save units get that?

I'd say Eldar FoF is limited by their strength. Marines have no trouble Fleeting in 2+ Armour! Surely a WL could do the same.

Personally, I'd give Wraithlords T6, (is that a mob of Eldar players with torches and pitchforks under my window :wtf: ) a 2+ save, a 5+ invulnerable and Fleet. Same points. Invulnerability to Str4 is just wrong.


Yup, I believe the only enclosed vehicle that can do that is the Land Raider. I always thought that was a bit of a spit in the eye for non-marine players, I mean it's one of the toughest vehicles, it can transport 10 terminators and they can assaoult on the turn they disembark. I give it a big WTF!
You can complain when your transport costs 250 pts and can't fire anything when moving over 6".


The "Can Assault From Assault Ramp" rule is stupid because the only vehicle that has it is a Land Raider.

It's sort of like standing at the head of the class and saying "The only kids who doesn't have detention today are kids named Jeff Martin and are sitting in the third row and wearing a green T shirt".

Well, you might as well just say "Jeff Martin", for all the difference it makes.
:eyebrows: So we should get rid of all special rules? I'm quite sure Eldar would be hurt the most by that... their whole book is one big exception to the rules.


Not to take the thread too far off topic, but I'd like to add that, hey... sometimes you can't assault when you want to. That's part of the game. Sometimes you can't assault. Sometimes you can't move. Sometimes you can't shoot. Sometimes you don't have line of sight. Sometimes a unit doesn't get a save. Sometimes a unit can't rally. That's how the game goes; it's not a game if those things aren't risks. I sometimes get the impression that if Space Marines can do something Eldar can't then certain players feel the rules are broken. Similarly, if an Eldar player can't pull off the astonishing massacre they would like to see, they assume the unit needs fixing. The game is as much about working against the challenges as it is playing the strengths. Remember: Some of what you want to do with your army is supposed to be hard, and some of it is supposed to be extremely hard... even if that one thing isn't necessarily hard for the other guy's army. That's how the game works.
Best Eldar post I've seen, ever. Should be liberally applied to other armies too.


Not when witchs are more powerful in assault then Banshees. Half WS, Cheaper, Inv save, Agniser, And combat drugs.
Yeah right. One whole Agoniser. Compared to a squad-full. Everything else are S3 attacks that do nothing.

spispopd
28-04-2006, 15:58
You said a few things about 3rd ed, but not about current rules or codices. Does the rule make sense to you now?

To be fair, however, I wasn't talking about the rule; just the wording. Honestly, I'm actually sort of indifferent to the rule itsel.

The assault ramp rule didn't exist in the 3rd edition, because it wasn't needed -abybody could jump out of a transport and assault. It was introduced in the 4th edition and gave Land Raider passengers the ability to jump out of a moving transport and assault, even though that it not normally possible with transport vehicles in the 4th edition. My point was that 4th edition and the assault ramps rule has made Land Raiders more attractive, because people can no longer assault from a moving 50 point Rhino. This makes the Land Raider somehow unique in the 4th edition, and therefore more attractive. So in answer to your question, yes, I do think that the assault ramps rule makes sense in the current edition (which is the only edition where it exists, anyway, so I wonder what your confusion was).



It is good as an anti-horde weapon. Oddly enough, it's not the best anti-horde weapon. That's the Scatter Laser.


Well, it the Scatter Laser definitely is the best anti-horde weapon against 6+ saves. However, even if the enemy has just a 5+ save, the Starcannon becomes better. There are some hordes with 5+ saves (LatD, for example). Anyway, I don't think that the Scatter Laser should be just a bit better against hordes than a Starcannon - it should be a lot better.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 16:00
Yeah right. One whole Agoniser. Compared to a squad-full. Everything else are S3 attacks that do nothing.


Not when they are hitting on 3+. They could get the +1 Str and then wound on 4+. Anyway I didn't say they are uder I said they are more powerful. Banshess have no change going up vs witchs. Plus Witchs can hold out in combat long enough for more help. It doesn't really matter if you have a power weapon when you have to roll vs so may wounds. it ends out being the same number of wounds anyway.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 16:02
I'd say Eldar FoF is limited by their strength. Marines have no trouble Fleeting in 2+ Armour! Surely a WL could do the same.

...wha?


Invulnerability to Str4 is just wrong.

I dunno. For me the idea of some Marine Scout lifting up a pistol and wounding a Wraithlord with it seems more wrong. I'm willing to just accept whatever GW does with the Wraithlord's toughness, however; I can't see many games being swung one way or the other over it, especially if the Wl gets a 2+ save.


:eyebrows: So we should get rid of all special rules? I'm quite sure Eldar would be hurt the most by that... their whole book is one big exception to the rules.

No, no.. not at all. I was just saying that instead of saying "ALL VEHICLES WHICH HAVE AN ASSAULT RAMP", we could have just said "Land Raider"... cause that's the only vehicle which has it. Thing is, that doesn't bother me. I find it odd, but I don't have a problem with it.


Best Eldar post I've seen, ever. Should be liberally applied to other armies too.

Why thank you. :)

I personally get more satisfaction out of a win which comes in the face of a list of handicaps and challenges. It makes me feel better about myself and I have more fun. I think if we forget that we must be able to lose as easily as we can win then we're going to stop enjoying the game altogether.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 16:06
The assault ramp rule didn't exist in the 3rd edition, because it wasn't needed -abybody could jump out of a transport and assault. It was introduced in the 4th edition and gave Land Raider passengers the ability to jump out of a moving transport and assault, even though that it not normally possible with transport vehicles in the 4th edition. My point was that 4th edition and the assault ramps rule has made Land Raiders more attractive, because people can no longer assault from a moving 50 point Rhino. This makes the Land Raider somehow unique in the 4th edition, and therefore more attractive. So in answer to your question, yes, I do think that the assault ramps rule makes sense in the current edition (which is the only edition where it exists, anyway, so I wonder what your confusion was).

Ok. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.


Well, it the Scatter Laser definitely is the best anti-horde weapon against 6+ saves. However, even if the enemy has just a 5+ save, the Starcannon becomes better. There are some hordes with 5+ saves (LatD, for example). Anyway, I don't think that the Scatter Laser should be just a bit better against hordes than a Starcannon - it should be a lot better.

Actually... you might think that 5+ saves make the Starcannon the frontrunner, but that's not necessarily true. I did a whole whackload of calculations on this (as I'm taking an almost all-Scatter-Laser army, so I wanted to get a feel for my chances), and it's true that the Starcannon performs better, but it costs more. If you take points costs into account as part of the calculation of effectiveness, the Scatter Laser actually vaults forward.

Storch
28-04-2006, 16:15
[QUOTE=OrbitalI personally get more satisfaction out of a win which comes in the face of a list of handicaps and challenges. It makes me feel better about myself and I have more fun.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!
In fact, some of the worst games I have ever played were against people who didn't have much experience against Eldar and really didn't have the list for it, making it a two hour long, completely one sided killing spree. Games like that are just no fun.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 16:16
Have you ever had one of those games where the other guy is going to do something incredibly stupid and you actually say "Don't do that. I'll destroy you next turn. Move it *here* instead".. ? Just to keep it interesting for yourself?

Sai-Lauren
28-04-2006, 16:19
No, no.. not at all. I was just saying that instead of saying "ALL VEHICLES WHICH HAVE AN ASSAULT RAMP", we could have just said "Land Raider"... cause that's the only vehicle which has it. Thing is, that doesn't bother me. I find it odd, but I don't have a problem with it.

It's a "should we ever decide to have more vehicles which we think you should be able to assault from, here's the generic rules" - and considering there's things like the Gorgon (epic) which probably should have them if a model ever appears, and things like drop pods may possibly get retconned to having assault ramps when the models finally come out and people decide they're not actually worth buying ;) .


I'd say Eldar FoF is limited by their strength. Marines have no trouble Fleeting in 2+ Armour! Surely a WL could do the same.

:confused:
Must have missed that one somewhere. Please elaborate.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 16:20
It's a "should we ever decide to have more vehicles which we think you should be able to assault from, here's the generic rules" - and considering there's things like the Gorgon (epic) which probably should have them if a model ever appears, and things like drop pods may possibly get retconned to having assault ramps when the models finally come out and people decide they're not actually worth buying ;) .

Yes. I get it. :)

hivefleetcarrion
28-04-2006, 16:30
as a non eldar player and marine player (i have DA and 1ksons) i think alot of people are forgetting that there are other races aprt from marines out there. my nids have a hard enough time taking out tanks, let alone skimmers and anything t8. personally i think the lord should be t7. this allows bolters/sluggas to wound it(with lucky rolls), puts it on par with a carnifex( which costs a whole lot more for a worse long range shooting slow moving beast, can be hurt by t4 weapons and moves/attacks very slowly). if wanting to keep it t8, reduce its save to 4+ and give it a c-tans price as that is in the same leauge. also t7 still allows it to ignore weedy weapons like lasguns, spinegaunts,any anything else t3.

startcannons also need to be fixed. its not right being able to kill a carnifex on the 1st turn (even if it is in cover) due to the long range, fairly high str and low ap shots. apart from ass cannons, i cant think of any other weapon that is high str, long range with low ap with a high rate of fire

oh these are just my personal views, now let the ranting about this post begin :)

Lanfiex
28-04-2006, 16:32
so there thinking of turn the starcannon into the tau plasma cannon WTF. if it make more varity in squads it cant be that bad and gives eldar a better wepaon against carnflexs (did eldar have a problem with the flexs?)

about assulting out of transports you can. if you dismark from the transport before you move (please not rotating the transport do not count as moving

example

a wave seperent with star engines turn 1 moves 26" right next to a foot slogging squad of fire warriors. for your example the foot squad will run (there fire warrior what did you expect) make it 6"s away. first the wave serpents turn around (turn dos not count as movment) and unloads banshes then procedes to move to it next mission (shooting stuff). banshes now get there move 6" then they shoot then they charge. as pistol arnt that great you can exstend the strike range of the banshes by D6".

the total stirke range in 2 turn is 24(wave serpent moves) +2D6" (star engines) + 6" (banshes move) + 1D6" (fleet of foot) + 6" (charge) = 39" to 54" inches in strike range and your still not happy. the transport is surviable enought for the 1 turn of shooting.

if you want better than this i would exespect it to cost 300+ pionts

Underway
28-04-2006, 16:38
From what I hear about the wraithlord it may be something like the carnifex. Multipart plastic kit with different loadouts to represent the type of spirit stone operating the thing. Points, WS, BS, T vary depending on how you want to make your Wraithlord.

Perhaps that's why it's getting a sword and shield option. The spirit inside is so old it doesn't even know how to use a shuriken catapult!!

Why do I have a vision of the "old soul" wraithlord sitting down in front of the avatars burning temple and telling all the assembled young wraithguard about "When I was a young spirit we didn't have none o'this fancy shmansy wraithcannons. You had to kill necrons with rocks. And our armour wasn't wraithbone it was aluminum. And thats the way we liked it!! You kids these days don't know how good you have it."

Venkh
28-04-2006, 16:51
In my opinion the problem with the starcannon is not its points value or its stats. The problem is its availability.

Its not illogical for a deadnought to mount a plasma cannon or for a speeder to mount a las-cannon. The reason they can't is just down to unit concept and design. I do acknowlege that the 15 asscannon marine army is an abomination though, i dont think this is what we should be aiming for.

I think there is a case for restricting weapon options within the Eldar list in a similar way. I wouldnt get too bent out of shape if i had to yank the starcannons off my Falcons. After all, there was a time when i was able to mount a macro cannon on my Eldar Dreadnought. It went and i got over it.... Almost.

Edit - I still hanker after a d-cannon toting wraithlord. Pleeeese Pleeese Pleeeese let it happen.

Keichi246
28-04-2006, 16:53
about assulting out of transports you can. if you dismark from the transport before you move (please not rotating the transport do not count as moving

example

a wave seperent with star engines turn 1 moves 26" right next to a foot slogging squad of fire warriors. for your example the foot squad will run (there fire warrior what did you expect) make it 6"s away. first the wave serpents turn around (turn dos not count as movment) and unloads banshes then procedes to move to it next mission (shooting stuff). banshes now get there move 6" then they shoot then they charge. as pistol arnt that great you can exstend the strike range of the banshes by D6".


Um - you may want to check the rules on that again...
My understanding is the "free turn not counting as moving" is a FIRING phase effect...

If you turn the tank in the movement phase - it's movement, which would prevent the assault. Now if the unit disembarks *behind* the tank and moves around it - and THEN the tank takes off for fire support missions - it is legal...

At least that's the way we've been running it...

Dave Gaidasz

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 16:54
as a non eldar player and marine player (i have DA and 1ksons) i think alot of people are forgetting that there are other races aprt from marines out there. my nids have a hard enough time taking out tanks, let alone skimmers and anything t8. personally i think the lord should be t7. this allows bolters/sluggas to wound it(with lucky rolls), puts it on par with a carnifex( which costs a whole lot more for a worse long range shooting slow moving beast, can be hurt by t4 weapons and moves/attacks very slowly). if wanting to keep it t8, reduce its save to 4+ and give it a c-tans price as that is in the same leauge. also t7 still allows it to ignore weedy weapons like lasguns, spinegaunts,any anything else t3.

You do know that a C-tan has extra abilitys and rules that go into its points right? I'll agree to that if my Wraithlords get C-tan abilitys sure. But you'll shoot yourself in the foot with that one (even being nids) because I'll just keep droping the nightbrighter template on your units killing them faster then a wraithlord could even. And sense he's a heavy support I would have 3...fun. About Nids. I forget they have this nice little thing called Rending claws. Oh and they warp blast power. For skimmers use Bio-plasma, it hits on a 4+ for no need for 6's.


startcannons also need to be fixed. its not right being able to kill a carnifex on the 1st turn (even if it is in cover) due to the long range, fairly high str and low ap shots. apart from ass cannons, i cant think of any other weapon that is high str, long range with low ap with a high rate of fire

You do know you have options to help right? If you know your going up plasma weapons save your points on the save and put them into the T7. If your not getting a save why pay points for it. Anywhy as you say it "(with lucky rolls)" that is what you need to down a fex. Trust me I know I was able to do it with a tyrent in 3rd end, was never able to do it again ever. "i cant think of any other weapon that is high str, long range with low ap with a high rate of fire" Ion Cannon? plus it has/can have better BS.



oh these are just my personal views, now let the ranting about this post begin :)

No Rant just Informing you.

Lanfiex
28-04-2006, 16:58
Um - you may want to check the rules on that again...
My understanding is the "free turn not counting as moving" is a FIRING phase effect...

If you turn the tank in the movement phase - it's movement, which would prevent the assault. Now if the unit disembarks *behind* the tank and moves around it - and THEN the tank takes off for fire support missions - it is legal...

At least that's the way we've been running it...

Dave Gaidasz

i will check again, you wouldent loss much thought in strike range any way if you fly it side ways (the back of the serpent to a side on a flank!)

Snotteef
28-04-2006, 17:05
T7 WL: That's just dumb. Now the all ready larger list of thanks that can kill him (compared to the dread) just about doubled. Even with a 2+ he will still get knocked down fast. Even with a 2+ save he will still get shot and wounded by all the wapeons that nagate his save anyway because most of them are still ap2 Just that it would be easier to wound him with them. Str 9 (lascannons) needs a 2+ nagate saves, Str8 (missle launchers, Melti) needs 3+ about half nagate save, Str7 (plasma, gun, rifle, pistol (and you know marines, Tau, and dark eldar can get a lot of it)) need 4+ nagate save.


This silly argument is really getting on my nerves. Wraithlords with T7 are stupid? Is the Talos stupid? It seems to be quite usable (in fact, I cherish mine)... it has T7 and 3+ save.

The argument that it would be underpowered at T7 is just plain ridiculous. It would be LESS powerful than it is now, but it would be FAR from underpowered. Making it less powerful IS the point, after all.

Don't forget that at T7 it still requires a minimum of 3 wounds to kill him, no matter what. Vehicles can be blown up in one shot.

Sure, T7 will make him easier to kill. Sure, it will make him harder to use. Suddenly, the Wraithlord would require THOUGHT to use! That sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

lord_blackfang
28-04-2006, 17:14
...wha?

Blood Angels and Khorne Berzerkers can Fleet (although it's not called Fleet, but it's the same damn thing) 1/6 or 1/3 of the time, respectively. Berzerkers can even get upgrades to make it more possible or automatic. This is regardless of armour save, remember that when your're charged by red-coloured Terminators from 13-18" away ;)


Have you ever had one of those games where the other guy is going to do something incredibly stupid and you actually say "Don't do that. I'll destroy you next turn. Move it *here* instead".. ? Just to keep it interesting for yourself?
Too many times. Hollow victories, those.


"i cant think of any other weapon that is high str, long range with low ap with a high rate of fire" Ion Cannon? plus it has/can have better BS.

It also comes tacked onto a single 115+ pts Heavy Support choice, whereas Starcannons can be carried by everyone and their dog (or rending pony, as appropriate)

Sareld
28-04-2006, 17:14
T7 wraithlords? That would ruin them, as the multitude of S4 attacks that just about any army can put would destroy it. But meh, I never liked wraith units anyway, so I dont really care. The heavy 2 starcannon on the other hand is a problem. Personally, I want the other eldar heavy weapons to be made worthwile, rather than having the only really good weapon nerfed. Im thinking something along the line of:

Scatter Lasers: Hmm... I think that this weapon was intended to be an anti light vehicle gun, due to its *slightly* better RoF, but the RoF increase was too small, and the weapon failed to get popular. I say, maintain all characteristics of this weapon, but upgrade its S to 7, and you will have a mean gun with an obivous purpose, that will be chosen over the starcannon when the task it light armor killing. Op the price of the gun *considerably*. I can already hear my raider squads scream...

EML: Basically a good gun, but it lacks punch when fired with BS3. And imperial krak missiles? Wtf? I say, let us fire haywire missiles from this baby. Yeah, I know that it would become a lot better vs tanks, but it would be a lot less worth vs. MCs, and it would loose the power to instant kill characters.. I think that those things balalces eachother out.

Shuriken Cannon: Under the current rules, this is what you buy when you for some sad reason cant take a starcannon. I hate how the eldar has so many similar S6 heavy 3 weapons, and I think that this gun should be changed to become more unique.. something along the lines of range 24" S5 Ap4 heavy 4, so it would beat the starcannon in the game of killing light infantry.

Bright Lance: Keep it the way it is.

Under the current rules, this is what you would get for diffrent jobs:

Killing MEQs: Starcannons
Killing hordes: Starcannons
Killing <AV12 vehicles: Starcannons
Killing >AV12 vehicles: Bright Lances
Need an allround gun? Starcannons..

With my suggestion that would become:

Killing MEQs: Starcannons
Killing hordes: Shuriken Cannons
Killing <AV12 vehicles: Scatter Lasers
Killing >AV12 vehicles: Bright Lances
Need an allround gun? EML

Needless to say, I like my own suggested weapon fix better than just nerfing the starcannon...

boogle
28-04-2006, 17:19
RE the limiting of The Wraithlord, if it went to 0-1, could it be that GW might be trying to make Iyandan a more favourable craftworld, by allowing them to have more than one?

Orbital
28-04-2006, 17:25
Blood Angels and Khorne Berzerkers can Fleet (although it's not called Fleet, but it's the same damn thing) 1/6 or 1/3 of the time, respectively.

It's not *quite* the same damned thing. Eldar can Fleet in any direction they wish, and they can also choose *not* to Fleet if they want to.

Zzarchov
28-04-2006, 17:31
The arguement about a 0-1 restriction being out because they just made a new mold could be valid, but if GW knows there game at all and how to push it, then so is T7.

Since your average opponent is MEq the difference between being T8 and T7 is the difference between having an AP4 and AP3 weapon.

It may seem like a small change, but think of the difference it would cause if Heavy bolters were made AP3? You'd see a HELLUVA lot more of them.

Its taken so much now because its T8, change it to T7 and it will sell FAR FAR fewer, because it goes from so powerful you can make it fit in an eldar list, to not powerful enough since its slow and has no place in most eldar lists.

Wolf Scout Ewan
28-04-2006, 17:33
There is word that the Eldar Codex is being playtested.

It is a case of "someone I know is playtesting *some* of the new rules"

The first post seems to be the same info as what I heard. Make of this what you will.

Kahadras
28-04-2006, 17:49
I don't see why there is so much complaint about Wraithlords dropping to toughness 7. OK they can be hurt by bolter fire but you will need a hell of a lot of it due to the 6 to wound and 3+ saving throw. Even rapid firing a whole squad of Marines at a Wraithlord would only really amount to one wound at the end of the day.

Kahadras

spispopd
28-04-2006, 17:52
I'd say Eldar FoF is limited by their strength. Marines have no trouble Fleeting in 2+ Armour! Surely a WL could do the same.


Are you talking about Chaos Lords with Daemonic Speed? That's the only Marine (well, Chaos Marine, to be exact) with Fleet that I can think of. Of course, there are things like Black Rage, which can make Marines move faster, but that's not exactly fleet.



Personally, I'd give Wraithlords T6, (is that a mob of Eldar players with torches and pitchforks under my window :wtf: ) a 2+ save, a 5+ invulnerable and Fleet. Same points. Invulnerability to Str4 is just wrong.


I'd buy that for 75 points! An excellent, relatively cheap close combat monster that can move fairly quickly and still is pretty tough to kill sounds good to me. I'm not sure if it would be that fluffy, though. Personally, I'd like to keep the Wraithlord as it is, but with a small point cost increase.


Yeah right. One whole Agoniser. Compared to a squad-full. Everything else are S3 attacks that do nothing.

Don't forget combat drugs and Wych weapons! I don't have the Dark Eldar codex with me, but I'm sure that they're cheaper than Banshees, even with Wych weapons. IIRC Wyches with Wych weapons cost 13 points per model (could be wrong, as it has been ages since I've faced Dark Eldar). A squad of 10 with Wych weapons, including a Succubus with an Agoniser, would be something like 160 points. A squad with 8 "normal" Banshees and an Exarch with Executioner would be 165. The Wyches can get different kinds of bonuses from the drugs. Let's see how the squads described above would perform against MEQs. Let's assume that the Wyches got +1 Attack. They'll hit on a 3+ because their opponent's WS is halved.

The Banshees will kill 3.56 Marines on average. The Wyches will kill 3.33. Okay, the Banshees did better, but not by very much. If the Marines have two close combat weapons, then the Wyches will negate that bonus and therefore suffer less casualties in return than the Banshees. Also, if the Marines have power weapons or anything that ignores armour saves, the Wyches' invulnerable save makes them more likely to survive. And the Wyches' greater numbers also make them more survivable in close combat than the Banshees.

Of course, you can argue that the Banshees will benefit more from extra attacks for charging, which is true. It is also true that they're more resilient against shooting. However, Wyches are generally easier to get into close combat, and they perform much better than Banshees against non-Marines. I'm not saying that Wyches are better than Banshees. In fact, I think that both units are pretty good as they are. What I'm saying is that comparing Banshees to Wyches is like comparing apples and oranges.


Actually... you might think that 5+ saves make the Starcannon the frontrunner, but that's not necessarily true. I did a whole whackload of calculations on this (as I'm taking an almost all-Scatter-Laser army, so I wanted to get a feel for my chances), and it's true that the Starcannon performs better, but it costs more. If you take points costs into account as part of the calculation of effectiveness, the Scatter Laser actually vaults forward.

You may be right. But still, I'd like the Scatter Laser to be more powerful against models with 5+ saves than a Star Cannon (ie not just cheaper). After all, it's the "Light infantry killer" in the Eldar arsenal, and I think that models with 5+ saves still fall under the "light infantry" category. In my opinion, models with 6+ and 5+ saves are light infantry, models with 4+ saves are medium and models with 3+ and 2+ are heavy infantry.

Actually, I think this could work for the three Eldar anti-infantry heavy weapons (Shuriken cannon, Star Cannon and Scatter laser)
-All of them have S6 and range 36"
-Scatter Laser is AP5 Heavy 4
-Shuriken cannon is AP4 Heavy 3
-Star Cannon is AP2 heavy 2

Of course, the Star Cannon's point cost would have to go down with this change. This way each of the weapons would have a clearly defined role: Scatter laser against hordes, Shuriken cannon against medium infantry and Star Cannon against MEQs. I'm still worrying that this could make the Shuriken cannon underused (like it isn't already), because the amount of 4+ saves is relatively low. But maybe this could be addressed by making the Shuriken cannon a bit cheaper than the other two weapons.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 17:52
This silly argument is really getting on my nerves. Wraithlords with T7 are stupid? Is the Talos stupid? It seems to be quite usable (in fact, I cherish mine)... it has T7 and 3+ save.

Did I say the Talos was stupid or not usable? No I said that Wraithlord would be. The Talos is still good in a dark eldar army. In an Eldar army the talo would suck. Its random, and its weapon is too weak (which is what needs to be improved on in a new DE codex). The talos works well with its T in a dark eldar army is because the rest of the army is so fast they can hold the units in combat and wait for the talos to come up and finish them off. Someone will have to answer this but can you have the talos come out of the wraith gate?



The argument that it would be underpowered at T7 is just plain ridiculous. It would be LESS powerful than it is now, but it would be FAR from underpowered. Making it less powerful IS the point, after all.

Depending on your point of view. The stats are fine the way they are. I would not mind for a points increase at all. Paying 110 points for the basic WL and gun would be ok because it would only be +10 more then what it is now. This will also make it +5 more then the basic dread. What is the deal with making things less powerful? NONE of the Codexs so far have not made anything less powerful then it was before. Sure they did get rid of somethings that were wrong (nid hive nod, Black MrT's roll one less die for the crazyness). But not make anything less powerful. If anything increase points.



Don't forget that at T7 it still requires a minimum of 3 wounds to kill him, no matter what. Vehicles can be blown up in one shot.

So? I've seen vehicles that lasted longer then a MC. Anyway that's not an issue with the WL thats because Vehicles are not what they should be.



Sure, T7 will make him easier to kill. Sure, it will make him harder to use. Suddenly, the Wraithlord would require THOUGHT to use! That sounds like a step in the right direction to me.

Making him cost more will do the same thing. It will force you to use less which will make you have to think about what you want to do with the army as a whole. So wouldn't that be even better?

Orbital
28-04-2006, 17:59
I don't see why there is so much complaint about Wraithlords dropping to toughness 7. OK they can be hurt by bolter fire but you will need a hell of a lot of it due to the 6 to wound and 3+ saving throw. Even rapid firing a whole squad of Marines at a Wraithlord would only really amount to one wound at the end of the day.

Kahadras

Not just bolter fire, but assault as well. If you get shot by bolters on the way to the unit you want to assault, and then while assaulting you have to deal with getting hit and wounded... even if it's on 6's, it's a big difference and it changes the way the Wraithlord works completely.

Brimstone
28-04-2006, 18:05
Oh wow another Eldar thread :rolleyes:

Lets hope something new and worthwhile is discussed this time.

Nexto
28-04-2006, 18:07
Well, how should that affect anything? The codex is nearly done, isn't it ?

Orbital
28-04-2006, 18:08
Oh wow another Eldar thread :rolleyes:

Lets hope something new and worthwhile is discussed this time.

Gee. That made everyone feel really positive.

Dark Muse
28-04-2006, 18:20
Well..... till some rumours wth substance really come out all we have is a whinging/defending cycle. In fairness this cycle is with quite a few armies, not just Eldar. The Eldar seem to be at the peak of the cycle right now though I guess due to speculation on the new codex.

Wait a few months, then start whinging/defending.

NakedFisherman
28-04-2006, 18:21
So a guy posts rumors, and everyone who plays 40K weighs in on not how truthful it may be (or how it could possibly affect their army), but rather everyone digs deep between their gluteus maximus to get their post count up.

T7 WRAITHLORD IS UNFAIRZZzzzzz
IYANDEN IS TEH SUXK
SM ARE CHEESE LAND RAIDER CHEESE

Really, this discussion has gone from the rumors to assaulting out of transports to rapid firing to Wraithlord toughness to Eldar fluff to weapon options to...to...to....it just never ends.

I'm going to get two Eldar codexes. One to read and one to burn in effigy.

x-esiv-4c
28-04-2006, 18:23
2 shot starcannon would be a f*!*&#$ cop-out!

Inquisitor Engel
28-04-2006, 18:32
The Eldar Codex was done playtesting about two months ago, barring point changes.

Kahadras
28-04-2006, 18:37
Not just bolter fire, but assault as well. If you get shot by bolters on the way to the unit you want to assault, and then while assaulting you have to deal with getting hit and wounded... even if it's on 6's, it's a big difference and it changes the way the Wraithlord works completely.

IMO it will actualy make it a lot better. It just means you can't steam it into the middle of a squad that doesn't have a powerfist which people do at present. They will actualy have to take the danger of close combat with anything that is strength 4 into concideration before charging. It doesn't radicaly change anything about the Wraithlord, just the amount of thought that will have to go into some decisions that a player makes.

Kahadras

lord_blackfang
28-04-2006, 18:48
and then while assaulting you have to deal with getting hit and wounded...

:eyebrows: Kinda like just about everything else in the game except a handful of units that a)allow the opponent to move out of combat and/or b) cost several times as much as a WL.

Zzarchov
28-04-2006, 19:07
@lord_blackfang

Exactly.. but in an eldar army all those other units would be mostly useless. It is only due to how obscenely powerful the wraithlord is for its points that it can fit in an Eldar army.

The Wraithlord functions in the exact opposite of how Eldar work. It would never be taken if it wasn't so good for its points. It would be like giving a SM devestator squad three lascannons and a heavy bolter. Sure you could.. They are all even good weapons, but its a waste of points to mix them like that. Like wise taking a plodding, slow close combat monster in a quick, nimble firepower army would be counter productive unless it was so cheap and good you could make it work regardless, thats what the wraithlord is.

lord_blackfang
28-04-2006, 19:16
Are you saying the Wraithlord is only worth its points because it's overpowered? Boy, them pointy-ears sure have high standards :confused:

NakedFisherman
28-04-2006, 19:24
Are you saying the Wraithlord is only worth its points because it's overpowered?

That's what I got out of it.

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 20:03
all im saying is compare the points of a spac marine commander with a powerfist and no other wargear or weapons and a wraithlord, gee i wonder which is the better buy???? and look i can have three wraithlords in a single force organisation chart, whoopee!!!!!! you may note a small amount of sarcasm on my part.

Nexto
28-04-2006, 20:11
A wraithlord can not:

- get ablative armour
- hide in his army
- get fancy inv. saves and other stuff
- boost mw
- get into vehicles/drop pods/ etc
- many more things a fc can ...

That is an absolutely inaedequate comparison which leads to nowhere.

compare the wraithlord to a talos, carnifex or other units with similiar function but always keep the army they belong to in mind.

Tom
28-04-2006, 20:16
He said compare a commander with set wargear against a Wraithlord. The options available become meaningless. Sure, they're open to him, but he's not taken them.

Wolf Scout Ewan
28-04-2006, 20:18
I don't see why there is so much complaint about Wraithlords dropping to toughness 7. *snip*

We were just discussing this on Wed in rl... safe t say that evryone agrees with Kahadras in our gaming group!

Eldar are a dying race, dying because they are arrogant and too confident in their own power, that when in the field amounts to nothing. Eldar might be old but they certainly arent "ZOMG, we iz teh ancient race and pwn all!!!111eleventy"

Thye are dying because they... they suck.

Montserrat
28-04-2006, 20:20
@lord_blackfang

Exactly.. but in an eldar army all those other units would be mostly useless. It is only due to how obscenely powerful the wraithlord is for its points that it can fit in an Eldar army.

The Wraithlord functions in the exact opposite of how Eldar work. It would never be taken if it wasn't so good for its points. It would be like giving a SM devestator squad three lascannons and a heavy bolter. Sure you could.. They are all even good weapons, but its a waste of points to mix them like that. Like wise taking a plodding, slow close combat monster in a quick, nimble firepower army would be counter productive unless it was so cheap and good you could make it work regardless, thats what the wraithlord is.

First sorry my english.

Totally seconded...actually most eldar units are not in an usable eldar role ( do not use th WL never). May be thinking the WL in the role of fire suport, will be a better idea...i really like the d-cannon return to the WL. Otherwise...this role is now filled whith warwalkers...

changing the theme... I hope the new dex eliminate the "random weapons functions" such as pulsar and the scatter lasser...eldar for me and most people means, quick and powered quirurgical atacks, no room for randomise.

Resuming...i want an eldar list whithout unusable pieces.

ah, and all those who calls cheese at starcanon (i do not use ANY in my army) look to the new assault cannon, THATS a brutal-all-role weapon.

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 20:21
im going on a point for point comparison remember all that other wargear or ablative squads and vehicles cost extra. compare for the points there profiles, combat and survivability. you will see that the wraithlord comes out vastly underpointed. profile wise same number of attacks, same save, same number of wounds, wraithlord has higher toughness and fights at higher initiative, marine commander has higher weapon and ballistic skill. Which one is more effective for the points its the wraithlord. After all off the top of my head a wraithlord is either the same or less points than a force commander with a powerfist.

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 20:24
assault cannon is indeed very brutal but very limited in numbers compared to the number of starcannons you can field in 1ooo points. I have personally faced 14 in 1000 points.

Nexto
28-04-2006, 20:30
@Tom: Exactly, but in which way is that a contribution to a discussion, examples with given wargear can be used to prove/falsify anything.

@T7-Discussion:

You need:

- 108 WS4, S4 Attacks in cc
- 81 BS4, S4 Shot

to kill a WL.

I think there is not really a problem of vulnerability against low strength weapons/attacks. The problem is high strength shots against which the wl is, even today, quite vulnerable. Against T8, you need 9 BS4 Lascannon shots to kill a wl, against T7 you need 5,5 BS4 Lascannon shots!

@noneedofaname: Again: You shouldnt compare 2 totally different units. Take an example with samerole on the battlefield and remember the army which gets this or that unit. It's also easy to find an example which will make the FC with powerfist totally underpriced because it forfills a different role.

t.y.a.
28-04-2006, 20:41
Oh wow another Eldar thread :rolleyes:

Lets hope something new and worthwhile is discussed this time.

You could always post us some nice new piccies... :angel:

Warp_touched
28-04-2006, 20:46
:p I seriously hope they do the 0-1 rule, I would mope over anything else.
And seriously, anyone just going on threads MENT for another race, just to raz on them...Dont:p

Hellfury
28-04-2006, 20:48
I seriously doubt that the starcannon will have an AP of 2.

The reason being is that the GW release after eldar will be DA. With all the deathwing models they will want to sell, I really find it improbable that they would give it AP2. They simply have to sell marine models, and want to push termies as hard as they can.

But lets assume that they do make the weapon ap2. For the points, it is a very good buy. It kills termies by the droves for that price. Quite a steal really. With the use of termies on the rise in popularity for SM's, I dont think the price is horrible as it stands. I am sure eldar players wont be whining when they see umpteen billion deathwing armies running around when their starcannons are 2 shots @ ap2.

Jon_Irenicus
28-04-2006, 21:02
Now letīs see if theyīre really that evil as a company. :)

Meaning? If Wraitlords go down to 0-1 choices:
"GW is evil, it wants to screw up the Eldar!"

If they donīt - "They just want to sell their products."

Starcannon not getting AP 2 because of the DA codex being next would leave me laughing my heart out...
Sorry, not to ridicule or make fun of anyone, but arenīt we just getting too stretched over by some rumour (once again, not to insult the thread starter...) ?

Anyway...
...nah, I think everythingīs been discussed by now. From a mathematical point of view, a strategical one, a fluff one.
Isnīt Warseer becoming a bit of a "new thing, same thing" place?
Not meaning to provoke (yet again I must state), but we get a glimpse of a rumour and tear it down to itīs basic form, analise it from all perspectives, and then chew on it. Over and over.
Itīs not that something can be done about it. After all, GW is extremely careful about what it releases. Which is something that is good and bad, but ultimately, more bad than good.

Gotchaye
28-04-2006, 21:04
assault cannon is indeed very brutal but very limited in numbers compared to the number of starcannons you can field in 1ooo points. I have personally faced 14 in 1000 points.

The fact remains that the Assault Cannon is a light vehicle-mounted weapon that makes a Heavy 2 Starcannon look like a pop gun.

One of the most central features of the Eldar theme is high firepower, granted them by superior technology. It's just nonsense that an Imperial weapon would be so much better than a similarly sized Eldar weapon at the role the Eldar weapon is made to fill. The Starcannon should kill more MEQs than the Assault Cannon. At the very least, it should kill more Terminators than the Assault Cannon, and a Heavy 2 Starcannon doesn't even do that.

Engel's comment is fairly interesting too. I suppose we ought to stop discussing changes and start bracing ourselves for impact. I know I'm holding off on buying anything new until I know whether or not Mech Eldar is still viable.

Sildani
28-04-2006, 21:12
Thank you, Inquisitor Engel, for saying that. I was starting to wonder.

I think the Wraithlord, based upon the new model we've heard of, is being completely rethought. Faster, not as tough, consummate weapon platform... super-Wraithguard?

Which reminds me. The Eldar as a whole have been rethought. Who knows what role the Wraithlord plays anymore? The Falcon may well have been nerfed. The Fire Prism may be an AV 14 normal-speed skimmer artillery piece. Striking Scorpions might have lost their 3+ save to become the Eldar ninja the Stealth ability wanted them to be. Who really knows?

I'm looking forward to it, though.

Jon_Irenicus
28-04-2006, 21:15
Maybe something of a tie in of the Wraithlord with the ideas seen in the fluff bit about the War in Heaven? True "Knights" of Vaul? Now that would be interesting. Or maybe a possibility of having both.

Having seen whatīs up with the 4th ed codexes, I must say that I think weīre up for something great... Marines got doctrines, Tau and Tyranids advanced... Corkinī!

Farseerixirvost
28-04-2006, 21:16
SC 2 shots - Plausible although this nerfs it down to a long ranged plasma gun for the price of a cannon. Not too good.


Pardon me if I'm late here, I'm only 15 replies into this 14 page thread...

I can see the SC going to 2 shots. Why? Because of the new, 4th edition template rules. You must place the hole of the blast marker over a model now. I play Dark Angels with PLEANTY of Plasma Cannons and I can honestly tell you this little rule change seriously changed the number of hits a Plasma Cannon gets on average (or any small blast template weapon for that matter). Unless someone has just deepstruck in, you'll be lucky to get more than 2 + 2 partials, never 3 (again, unless they just deep struck in or are stupidly standing base-to-base). So reducing the Eldar "Plasma Cannon" to 2 shots brings it in line w/ other blast weapons BUT still gets guaranteed 2 shots, Plasma Cannons are notorious for only getting 1 + 1 partial in many instances.

And Yes, I do play Eldar also, so all this comes from both a DA and Eldar perspective.

Hellfury
28-04-2006, 21:16
Starcannon not getting AP 2 because of the DA codex being next would leave me laughing my heart out...

You give GW far too much credit.

Farseerixirvost
28-04-2006, 21:32
Originally Posted by Sildani
Quite. Hell, you can still move the Serpent 12", disembark, and shoot at full effect - unit and Serpent both! I like the rules and the Serpent just as they are.



Exactly! There's no law which says you have to put assaulters in there.


Exactly. That's why I run 10 Fire Dragons in 1 WS, 10 Scorps in another, 10 Scorps or Banshees in a 3rd, and a mini-Seer Council in a Falcon, all working in concert to flank the enemy. Hit his flank w/ 10 fusion gun blasts plus a ton o' pistol shots plus 4 tanks' worth of dakka AND provide said flank w/ 4 tanks and 36 infantry to choose between. "Hmmm... If I paste those dragons that just pasted me, all the assaulters will come in, if I paste the assaulters, I'll take another fusion gun hammering, if I ignore infantry to tank hunt, ouchy-waa-waa, if I ignore tanks to shoot infantry, ouchy-waa-waa..."

Zzarchov
28-04-2006, 21:33
Are you saying the Wraithlord is only worth its points because it's overpowered? Boy, them pointy-ears sure have high standards :confused:


Im saying its not overpowered for its points FOR ELDAR. A units points is not based off its stats. Its based off it's stats IN RELATION to the rest of its codex.

For example: A unit of Genestealers can take the "Extended Carapace" upgrade (boosting its save by +1) for X points (about the cost of a grot). Allowing a space marine squad to do the same would be worth far more points, FAR more points.

A wraithlord is worth its current cost to the Eldar because thats how useful it is give or take. To say Tyranids or Orks it would be worth FAR more, but also note that an Ork Rokkit or Big Shoota would be far more valuable to the Eldar than to the Orks.

silverstu
28-04-2006, 21:41
Thank you, Inquisitor Engel, for saying that. I was starting to wonder.

I think the Wraithlord, based upon the new model we've heard of, is being completely rethought. Faster, not as tough, consummate weapon platform... super-Wraithguard?

Which reminds me. The Eldar as a whole have been rethought. Who knows what role the Wraithlord plays anymore? The Falcon may well have been nerfed. The Fire Prism may be an AV 14 normal-speed skimmer artillery piece. Striking Scorpions might have lost their 3+ save to become the Eldar ninja the Stealth ability wanted them to be. Who really knows?

I'm looking forward to it, though.
me too- maybe the wraithlord is flexible - the t7 is basic with options like a 0-1 t8 ancient? Anyway I agree with Jon too- i'm liking the look of the new 4th ed codexes- the new nid one is great -plenty of vaible choices competing to be taken heres hoping the eldar one equals it:) .

NakedFisherman
28-04-2006, 21:42
A wraithlord is worth its current cost to the Eldar because thats how useful it is give or take. To say Tyranids or Orks it would be worth FAR more, but also note that an Ork Rokkit or Big Shoota would be far more valuable to the Eldar than to the Orks.

I can't believe you're serious.

EldarRaven
28-04-2006, 21:47
Engel's comment is fairly interesting too. I suppose we ought to stop discussing changes and start bracing ourselves for impact. I know I'm holding off on buying anything new until I know whether or not Mech Eldar is still viable.

I agree this is the same thing I'm doing. Basicly GW qill not get any money from me until the eldar stuff starts coming out (well other then WD's with Eldar pics in them). And I'm sure I'm not the only one that is doing this. The other thing is that we do have to have faith in GW for making something they know we can use and need. So far they have done so with the current codexs (mainly Tau).

Bregalad
28-04-2006, 21:48
Phew, 15 pages in less than 24 hours. You Eldar players are talkative, aren't you?

Guess, I have to skip Eldar threads in the future unless someone cares to sum it up for us non-Eldar players. (still recovering from all those endless "rending" and "starcanon" threads).

noneedforaname
28-04-2006, 21:56
i hope what the studio will have done is go back to the roots of the eldar allowing a greater use of misdirection, pinning etc to allow clinical overwhelming attacks on small portions on an enemy army slowly eroding there ability to fight back before disappearing like mist in the sunshine to prevent repriasal. in my opinion that would be far more rewarding and fitting style of game play rather than I have big hard wraithlords that you cant hurt, guns that kill you on twos and HQ options that have so many saves to make them unkillable. I prefer the idea of them avoiding being struck to being resilient.

g0ddy
28-04-2006, 21:57
....

If you want to go by that approach then make it strike at I1 in combat as it is wielding powerfists- even the codex entry states as such and there are no rules for Monstrous Creatures ignoring the I1 powerfist penalty....

.......

It is armed with dreadnougth close combat weapons - do dreadnoughts strike last? no. The ONLY reasons powerfists strike last in this (and 3rd ed) is because of the "new" insta kill rules. It has no bearing what so ever on the fluff.

Personally - a 2 shot starcannon is a step in the right direction with the changes to blast weapons in 4th ed. Its starting to bring it in line with the current effectiveness of plasma cannons.

As far as limiting Wraithlords in an army, while this would set a new precident for 40k, something along the lines of '1 wraithlord per thousand points' or even pairing them with units of wraithguard.

I do remember hearing a rumour sometime ago about wraithlords possibly gaining 'wraithsight' which may work aswell.

- g0ddy

Razhem
28-04-2006, 21:58
If they want to make the rest of the eldar armoury an option, they have 3 ways of doing it
-turning the starcanon into crap (and no, as it stands and with heavy 2, it ainīt, and it would naturally get a point reduction if it ended being that way) wich will not happen apart from making eldar scream bloody murder
-making the other weapons really strong (very bad idea, people hate starcanons as they are and find them so destructive, how the hell are you going to buf other weapons so theyīre as interesting?)
-taking a bit of power away from the starcanon and giving the rest a little boost, and I think this is where itīs headed, 2 shoot starcanons and rending shuriken canons are rumours that are flying around

russian
28-04-2006, 22:02
well the new wraithlord will be in plastic so it would be presumed to go in the battalion, and ive heard there will be plastic wraithguard( not to sure on that one though)

sc are only cheese to meqs, shriken cannons are less points for the same effect against hordes and i dont hear them being called cheese,

but hopefully with the doctrines for iq traits for marines and such there will eb an eqiv for eldar

sulla
28-04-2006, 22:10
If they want to make the rest of the eldar armoury an option, they have 3 ways of doing it


...And that's the crux of the matter isn't it really. It doesn't really matter what is done with the wraithlord as long as it is balanced within the CWE book so it no longer becomes such a no-brainer.

Ultimately. whether this means depowering it, increasing it's cost or 'simply' improving the other choices, the goal has to be making other choices seen in Eldar armies more often, not simply depowering certain choices because the Eldar are not an overpowered army... It's just that some things in their army are vastly easier to use than others.

As for depowering the starcannon, I think this would be a bad idea. I don't think the star cannon is any more powerful than the imperial plasma cannon and I could get plenty of those in my marine army if I wanted. Again, the solution is to make all the Eldar heavy weapons viable, rather than to simply depower the best of them.

Sulla

Tom
28-04-2006, 22:27
The problem is, you could make the other five heavy weapons better, lop a shot off the starcannon, and I bet my life there'd be more moaning about the starcannon dropping that shot than there would be praise for making the other ones good.

SonofUltramar
28-04-2006, 22:48
To be honest i mainly play with Imperial Forces and i don't mind the Starcannon as is? Admittedly i only read the first 6 pages of this thread and this one and it seems that the only thing Eldar players seem to care about is whether or not there Wraithlords are super hard or nigh on indestructable? A whole new codex and this is what you are fixating on, seems a bit a crazy to me?

WL with T7 and 2+Sv would still be amazing, if the new model is stunning which i'm sure it will be i would be tempted to add one to my Eldar arny, my first.

Starcannon with 2 shots and rending for Shuriken Cannons would in my opinion be a great thing and give each of the weapons there own niche?

Only thing i want to know is whether or not they're going to get rid of the most annoying vehicle upgrade in the game, Crystal Targeting Matrix, makes we want to break out 2nd Ed and go on Overwatch.

Rant over, sorry but the Eldar Codex is still good and i'm sure the new one won't disappoint either but at the end of the day i just want the new minatures as the range is only rivalled by the Orks for the amount of time they've been around.:)

generulpoleaxe
28-04-2006, 23:24
most of the decisions for rulebook and codex changes come from tournament results and tournament player feedback.

units that are over used/abused get downgraded.
units that hardly/don't get used get made more effective wether by tweeking or points reduction.

watch what happens over the next three or so years and you will see what i meen.

oh, and wraithlords were usefull, and still powerfull, when T7.

Anaris
28-04-2006, 23:33
Well it has been hinted that the CTM will be dropped.

Personally I don't want to see it dropped just change what it does.

Instead of translating the "being able to fire faster on the move" as move, fire, move they should have it so it can fire 2 primary weapons up to 12" or 1 primary upto 18" or something.

Anaris
28-04-2006, 23:34
most of the decisions for rulebook and codex changes come from tournament results and tournament player feedback.

units that are over used/abused get downgraded.
units that hardly/don't get used get made more effective wether by tweeking or points reduction.

watch what happens over the next three or so years and you will see what i meen.

oh, and wraithlords were usefull, and still powerfull, when T7.

Point in case.

Last UK GT saw the 64 man Seer Council of Doom armies, rumour is that th Seer Council will now be limited to 10 models.

Chosen Farseer
28-04-2006, 23:53
Starcanon with 2 shots and rending for Shuriken Canons would in my opinion be a great thing and give each of the weapons there own niche?


I don't think that would be the best. What reason ist there for buying a Starcanon? The Shurikencanon will be nearly the same and much better against vehicles. All Starcanons will be switched to Shurikencanons. And everybody will say: The Shurikencannon is too good, because everyone has so much of them. Scatterlaser, Starcanon and Shurikencanon should all be a good choice for the points and then you will see more various heavy weapons...

Tom
29-04-2006, 00:16
Thing though is, you see a lot of Missile launchers in Imperial armies. It's good against troops, it's good against tanks, OMG the cheese!

Zzarchov
29-04-2006, 00:16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zzarchov
A wraithlord is worth its current cost to the Eldar because thats how useful it is give or take. To say Tyranids or Orks it would be worth FAR more, but also note that an Ork Rokkit or Big Shoota would be far more valuable to the Eldar than to the Orks.



I can't believe you're serious.


Seriously? Not to breach copywrite hear but you don't think an Eldar could use Rokkit Launchers for +5pts? 3 to a squad of guardians and available to all characters? Those wouldn't be overpowered? Assault 1 Krak Missile launchers all over the place (even if only characters took them it would be highly powerful) ? With orks they aren't overpowered at all, but the ork list is based that way.

A units points IS NOT based off its stats in a vacuum, it is based on the rest of the codex as well. For the most part they are arbitrary.

Sildani
29-04-2006, 01:12
The problem is, you could make the other five heavy weapons better, lop a shot off the starcannon, and I bet my life there'd be more moaning about the starcannon dropping that shot than there would be praise for making the other ones good.
Not from me! I'd be cheering on these fora.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 01:23
:eyebrows: Kinda like just about everything else in the game except a handful of units that a)allow the opponent to move out of combat and/or b) cost several times as much as a WL.

My point merely was that it's a big change in gameplay for Wraithlords to *not* be vulnerable to certain types of weapons and then suddenly to be vulnerable to ALL of that type of weapon. T7 is a change that, above all else, gives an advantage to Marines; S4 guns and S4 assault are their touchstone. Few other armies have both in the basic troop. Considering that powerfists/powerweapons abound in that army, do we really think Marines need a boost that's primarily for them only?

As for the points cost, I'm not just good... I'm GREAT with jacking the Wraithlord's cost up to make the T8 worth it. It he's going to be more than base 150 points, then I'd like to see something else for the cost (like a 2+ save or ability to Deep Strike or something), but I'd happy pay a "Toughness 8 tax". I wouldn't hesitate a second.

Sildani
29-04-2006, 01:28
Nor would I, and this very occurrence has been mentioned many times over the years. Leave the stats, raise the points cost.

Hellebore
29-04-2006, 02:12
I've said it many times, but I'll say it again: neither the wraithlord nor the starcannon need stat changes; they only need point adjustments.

The eldar possess a heavy weapon that is equivalent to each imperial one:

Shuriken cannon: heavy bolter
Scatter laser: Multilaser
Eldar Missile Launcher: Missile Launcher
Starcannon: Plasma Cannon
Bright Lance: Lascannon

Now if you can tell me with a straight face that the eldar equivalent of an imperial plasma cannon should be WORSE than it, go ahead. As it is, almost ALL of the eldar equivalents are INFERIOR to their imperial counterparts in stats alone:

Shuriken cannon Rng24"S6AP5heavy3: heavy bolter rng36"S5AP4heavy3 = heavy bolter superior on average
Scatter laserRng36"S6AP6heavyD6: Multilaser Rng36"S6AP6heavy3= ridiculous scatterlaser- multilaser is better as it is more reliable
Eldar Missile Launcher: Missile Launcher= definitely the eldar one- ap4 pinnin blast is clearly better
StarcannonRng36"S6AP2heavy3: Plasma Cannon Rng36"S7AP2heavy1blast = starcannon-just. S7 can penetrate vehicles much easier than S6 can, but heavy 3 is better than blast1.
Bright LanceRng36"S8AP2heavy1: Lascannon Rng48"S9AP2heavy1 = lascannon- brightlance has shorter range, and its lance ability is only of use against av14 tanks- every other time it is worse than a lascannon.

from this list only 2 weapons are better than the imperial equivalent- pretty bad for teh uber race :rolleyes:

If the starcannon goes down to heavy2 it can't even compete with the imperial plasma cannon. If it then went up to S7 I wouldn't mind so much. Remember the eldar are supposed to be the most advanced race in the galaxy- if their heavy weapons can't even compete with imperial ones they have BIG problems.

Hellebore

Sareld
29-04-2006, 02:20
If they want to make the rest of the eldar armoury an option, they have 3 ways of doing it
-turning the starcanon into crap (and no, as it stands and with heavy 2, it ainīt, and it would naturally get a point reduction if it ended being that way) wich will not happen apart from making eldar scream bloody murder
-making the other weapons really strong (very bad idea, people hate starcanons as they are and find them so destructive, how the hell are you going to buf other weapons so theyīre as interesting?)
-taking a bit of power away from the starcanon and giving the rest a little boost, and I think this is where itīs headed, 2 shoot starcanons and rending shuriken canons are rumours that are flying around

The problem is that the starcannon is fine as it is now, its just that the other weapons in the eldar armory is utter crap, so of course the SC is overused. I dont think that neutering the starcannon and turning the shuriken cannon into a less effective assault cannon is the answer to the current balance problems. Think about it... if they make the shiriken cannon rending, and destroy the starcannon, every single one of our heavy weapons will be worse than their imperial counterpart, and then what? It would be a totla violation of the fluff if the mon-keigh had better weapons that us all the way..

Gotchaye
29-04-2006, 02:26
That's my thought, too. Generally speaking, Eldar weapons should be better at their particular roles, but less able to fill other roles. The Eldar anti-horde should actually have less strength than the Heavy Bolter, so that it doesn't work as well against light vehicles, but it should be better at killing Guardsmen, Gaunts, and Fire Warriors. The Eldar anti-heavy should be better than the Plasma Cannon at taking out MEQs/low-T MCs (and BS3 2 shot is not as good as BS4 blast, in my opinion - it's pretty easy to get one and two partials), but worse against vehicles. The Eldar anti-tank should be better than the Lascannon at popping vehicles, but worse against high-T MCs (though there's no real way to do this short of making the Lance rule better).

Kahadras
29-04-2006, 02:32
Your forgetting other bits and pieces though. Stuff like plasma over heating, Eldar getting weapons platforms that allow them to move and fire squad based heavy weapons. IMO it's pointless comparing weapon for weapon as they are designed for different armies and different philosophies at the end of the day.

Kahadras

Hellebore
29-04-2006, 03:27
The point is that the WEAPON is inferior.

It is actually WORSE if the eldar need to create super duper hover platforms just to get over to stupid ranges of their weapons.

What is easier, creating a 72" range gun or building an antigrav platform and interface for firing it?

Using other technology to fix your crap technology is NOT the same as having plain BETTER weapons.

The eldar are technologically superior, thus they MUST have superior weapons-any ancilliary equipment like hover platforms, jetbikes et al are just that ANCILLIARY (and should also be superior anyway).

Hellebore

Theadium
29-04-2006, 03:36
Okay, I have seen alot of these types of posts and I am just using yours to reverberate to everyone...


I think Toughness 7 for the Wraithlord would be a bad idea. As others have said this means that it is now vulnerable to S4 attacks which would make them far too perishable. Now if they were T7 with a 2+ save, I could potentially see this as a compromise.
I think they designers have to go back to the start with Wraithlords. If you were to compare points to a carnifex. Now lets just take a look here...

Wraithlord (now, unbalanced as hell)--->75 (+ weapons I believe) points
Carnifex---> 85 (+ weapons) points

Now look at the statline difference. The Wraithlord has (Compared to the fex)...
+1 WS, +2 BS, -4 S (powerfists make up for it), +2 T, -1 W, +3 I, variable attacks, same save. Now lets try to balance the carnifex off to the wraithlord...

Carnifex--->123 (+ weapons) MIND YOU, it is still at only T7 (which you guys are complaining about being vulnerable to enemy fire, if a wraithlord is invulnerable to bolter shots, what makes a carnifex vulnerable to them?) only 3 BS and only 2 I. Now this seems alittle unfair if you ask me. Now, just for fun, lets do your suggestions, add a 2+ save and take your toughness down to a T7. Now the carnifex costs 148 POINTS! While you still retain your advantages, some people may say (and they will say) that "carnifex's make up for it." Alright, well lets just do the math...

Carnifex--->4 WS, 3 BS, 9 S, 7 T, 5 W, 2 I, 2+1 A, 10 Ld, 2+ Sv... PLUS he has a venom cannon, the closest thing to the mandatory starcannon on a wraithlord as possible, and regenerate just for the hell of it.
Which price do you think the said carnifex goes for?
Either... (A)190 points, (B) 203 points, (C) 236 points, or (D) 250 points?
The answer is C, 236 points for something that doesnt even get close to beating a wraithlord, which is what? About 125 points with a starcannon?

My idea here is boost the wraithlord cost up considerably, leave it T8, give it an option for a 2+ save, and make it an HQ choice. This would make things seem right in my book...

Orbital
29-04-2006, 03:37
A Wraithlord as an HQ choice in an Iyanden Army... man, NOW you've got my attention...!

Hellebore
29-04-2006, 03:43
When I made my own eldar army list, my Iyanden list contained a HQ choice that was a farseer spirit inside a wraithlord.

I thought that if each major craftworld had their own unique HQ and infantry choice it would made them more distinct from each other.


Hellebore

Theadium
29-04-2006, 03:48
The thing is for every army maybe make wriathlords JUST HQ's, this limits them to a reasonable size, and limits the use of uber farseers running around fortuning and guiding them. I think an Iyenden army should get the dreadnought army setup for the marines, can be used as Elites also, but must take so and so skill. I just think the fact now is that the lords are way too over powered to have that many without being Iyenden.

Zzarchov
29-04-2006, 03:52
Okay, I have seen alot of these types of posts and I am just using yours to reverberate to everyone...


I think they designers have to go back to the start with Wraithlords. If you were to compare points to a carnifex. Now lets just take a look here...

Wraithlord (now, unbalanced as hell)--->75 (+ weapons I believe) points
Carnifex---> 85 (+ weapons) points

Now look at the statline difference. The Wraithlord has (Compared to the fex)...
+1 WS, +2 BS, -4 S (powerfists make up for it), +2 T, -1 W, +3 I, variable attacks, same save. Now lets try to balance the carnifex off to the wraithlord...

Carnifex--->123 (+ weapons) MIND YOU, it is still at only T7 (which you guys are complaining about being vulnerable to enemy fire, if a wraithlord is invulnerable to bolter shots, what makes a carnifex vulnerable to them?) only 3 BS and only 2 I. Now this seems alittle unfair if you ask me. Now, just for fun, lets do your suggestions, add a 2+ save and take your toughness down to a T7. Now the carnifex costs 148 POINTS! While you still retain your advantages, some people may say (and they will say) that "carnifex's make up for it." Alright, well lets just do the math...

Carnifex--->4 WS, 3 BS, 9 S, 7 T, 5 W, 2 I, 2+1 A, 10 Ld, 2+ Sv... PLUS he has a venom cannon, the closest thing to the mandatory starcannon on a wraithlord as possible, and regenerate just for the hell of it.
Which price do you think the said carnifex goes for?
Either... (A)190 points, (B) 203 points, (C) 236 points, or (D) 250 points?
The answer is C, 236 points for something that doesnt even get close to beating a wraithlord, which is what? About 125 points with a starcannon?

My idea here is boost the wraithlord cost up considerably, leave it T8, give it an option for a 2+ save, and make it an HQ choice. This would make things seem right in my book...

The problem is comparing the usefullness of a Carnifex in a Tyranid army with one in an Eldar army. If you let Eldar Take Carnifexes they wouldn't, they have no real use in an Eldar army and would just be a point sink. The cost would need to go down, alot, for it to be viable.

hivefleetcarrion
29-04-2006, 04:53
the carnie fex is one of the nids only chnaces of taking down heavy tanks from a distance. now nids are mostly made for assault( they got rid of all that weird shooting mutation crap from the 3rd dex). a carnie can easily destroy tanks, but who in there right mind lets a carni get close to there tanks in the first place? and the vc only glances, so its a 1/6 chace after glancing (on a bs2 unit) to destroy it.the carnie also suffers from IB, although the wl looks like it might be getting wraithsight

a tyrant has a good chance of destroying vehicles in combat(if it can make it into btb). warpbalst, while being str10(after a test) is still only going to hit 1/2 the time, and on zoanthroaps unless backed up via synapse likely to die easily to most anti tank weapons(lascannon,multimelta,bolt of change, startcannon, brightlance, ect)

rendering works well if you can get it to make contact with tanks, but still relies on rolling a 6 and then another d6 to get ap. then another good roll to do damage. how many genestealers or ravanges/warriors do you think most people let make into contact. trying to get a unit of genestealers into combat is a trick to itself. and to a few posts before the wl can be screened by the avatar, although there are rumors that the avatar will be sommuned so that is nerfed.

now moving away from the wraithlord/starcannon debate, has anyone got any info on eldar psychic powers, currently space marines/nids have left these guys way behind, considering they are meant to be the psychic race of 40k.

Pyro8
29-04-2006, 05:24
Direct comparation is relatively worthless - each army has different context which matters a lot.

joshypoo
29-04-2006, 06:24
I agree with hellebore, eldar weapons need to be meaner than hell. It's garbage that Tau weapons get the treatment that eldar weapons really deserve. Aside from that beautiful gun we space marines mount on our vindicators i'd say Tau guns would sweep the Academy Awards of Mayhem and Carnage like two gay cowboys on a mountain.

but seriously, i hate Tau, cocky little young'un upstarts.

TomKamakazi
29-04-2006, 06:45
I'm loath to agree with Naked Fisherman or to disparage my fellow pointy eared players, but the Eldar threads are getting rediculous. I've stopped reading much beond the first few pages of them. Can the mods maybe set up a whole Eldar forum section simmilar to the wastes?

Orbital, I want you to go and get your big grey book and look at page 62 at the very end of the section on disembarking.

Why is it that Engel is dropping these pearls of knowledge and being ignored? The codex is done. Let's stop speculating and start lining up outside Games Workshop stores like people waiting for U2 tickets.

I have a few ideas about assulting out of serpents, star cannons and HQ wraithlords, but I'm just going to mutter them to my self like a crazy, homeless person because I know that there's nothing more to do besides wait for the codex to appear on the shelves.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 06:56
Tom: What am I missing that you want me to see?

TomKamakazi
29-04-2006, 07:17
Tom: What am I missing that you want me to see?

In referance to your early posts here; that there is infact no mention of assult ramps. It does infact say that units maynot assult out of a vehicle unless it is open toped, has not yet moved or is a land raider.

No offence meant, but you seemed to be grumbling about wording that was already as you'd have it.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 07:18
Tom: You may be right. Even if you aren't, I just wanna say that I wasn't actually trying to make it sound like a complaint. Just "Oh! Interesting!"... but I don't know if I'm even capable of saying something that doesn't sound like a complaint, so maybe it's a fool's errand for me to try otherwise :)

TomKamakazi
29-04-2006, 07:29
No offence meant or taken. Most of your posts are well written and informative. (part of the reason you're on the List) If you keep this head banging (http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/tomkamakazi/?action=view&current=image.flv) up every time some one mentions the Eldar you'll give your self concussion.

Seriously. Let it Slide.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 08:02
I actually forgot about it, like, a while ago. So it's all slid now. :)

lord_blackfang
29-04-2006, 08:20
My point merely was that it's a big change in gameplay for Wraithlords to *not* be vulnerable to certain types of weapons and then suddenly to be vulnerable to ALL of that type of weapon. T7 is a change that, above all else, gives an advantage to Marines; S4 guns and S4 assault are their touchstone.

It happens. In the 2002 Chaos dex, Thousand Sons lost their immunity to S4 and got a price hike for their trouble.



The eldar are technologically superior, thus they MUST have superior weapons


If you wanna argue fluff, then they also MUST have weapons inferior to the Necrons. :evilgrin: And lookit, the Necron starcannon-equivalent is range 36, Str 6, Heavy 3, AP4. Go figure.

Brimstone
29-04-2006, 08:26
This thread is being moved to 40K general as it contains very little in the way of N&R and lots of discussion.

Gotchaye
29-04-2006, 08:29
And we all know how playable the Thousand Suns are, *wink*.

I like to think that the Necrons went all-out in terms of defensive technology, whereas the Eldar went for offensive. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that Eldar weapons tech edges out Necron, especially since they've had several hundreds of millions of years to work on it.

And yeah, I think that, to be sensible, Necron weaponry ought to be at least comparable to Eldar. I realize, though, that an army with the Necron defensive statline and weaponry of the sort that the Eldar ought to have would be ridiculously unplayable, costing rather more than Grey Knights and consisting of only a few models. I don't think that better-than-Imperial Eldar weaponry is too gamebreaking, as it seems able to be accounted for by Guard defensive profiles and point costs.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2006, 09:21
most of the decisions for rulebook and codex changes come from tournament results and tournament player feedback.



Would be a marked difference between how the design team works for Warhammer and 40k then, and as far as I know it's the same team, so I don't really think so.



Anyway, the real problem is that many eldar players are far from happy with there current book, but none of us can agree on just how we want things to be. Personally I think the best idea would be if GW threw the current book out the window, and rewrote it completly from scratch. Not just doing a few fixes on the current version. I hope thats what happened, as there are so many problems with the current one, that you just can't patch it and get a good result.


Ultimately, I don't care overmuch what happens to Starcannons, or Wraithlords specifically(why don't they just make it a vehicle again?).

The whole book needs a look at, the units needs a meaningful role, the weapons need to be reblanced and be useful, vehicles needs to be practical etc.

All that is much easier if you put aside the current rules, and instead restart from a concept stage.

lord_blackfang
29-04-2006, 09:56
All that is much easier if you put aside the current rules, and instead restart from a concept stage.

As far as we know, that's exactly what happened. Or rather, what we were told would happen - back when work on Eldar was barely beginning, it was said that there would be a complete re-conceptualization of the entire race.

Lord Solar Plexus
29-04-2006, 10:51
The "Can Assault From Assault Ramp" rule is stupid because the only vehicle that has it is a Land Raider.


'Scuse me but the rule book does not mention assault ramps.



Well, you might as well just say "Jeff Martin", for all the difference it makes.

That *is* what it says.



I think Toughness 7 for the Wraithlord would be a bad idea. As others have said this means that it is now vulnerable to S4 attacks which would make them far too perishable.


Vulnerable? I do not think so. There is a slight chance of hurting him but calling it vulnerable is to my mind overshooting the mark. It is a good rule of thumb that anybody should have a chance of wounding anybody else, abysmal as this chance may be, and with the exception of vehicles.



So? I've seen vehicles that lasted longer then a MC.


Happens but is unlikely. Or that vehicle is a lot more expensive than the MC. A standard Demolisher can shoot one weapon at a Fex or WL or whatever else. It need s to hit and wound, and may incur one single wound. The much much cheaper Fex or WL or younameit-MC can often shoot twice and kill the tank outright. It might not but it can - the Demo simply can't because it is limited to a single shot (barring side sponsons).

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2006, 11:02
As far as we know, that's exactly what happened. Or rather, what we were told would happen - back when work on Eldar was barely beginning, it was said that there would be a complete re-conceptualization of the entire race.


Yes, thats what I'm hoping. It's just that despite that, all eldar discussions seems to evolve around small fixes to the current codex. But that might be caus it's a lot easier to work with something we all know, than radical changes.

But lets wait and see the result. Lots of things thats needs redone.

Montserrat
29-04-2006, 12:04
Phew, 15 pages in less than 24 hours. You Eldar players are talkative, aren't you?

Guess, I have to skip Eldar threads in the future unless someone cares to sum it up for us non-Eldar players. (still recovering from all those endless "rending" and "starcanon" threads).


Wait another 8 years for a decent codex. You will be surprised how you need to expres your Point of view.

SonofUltramar
29-04-2006, 12:14
I think the idea of starting from scratch is the best idea as it opens up far more options to design new cool stuff and not feel constrained by the current rules set.

As an aside i've heard from staff at my local store that the Farseer will apparantly come with Fortune and Warlocks with conceal, as standard, if true i like it as a dying race should be looking to defend themselves before striking at someone else?

Just to throw something else out there, do you think War Walkers should have 2 weapons or like the new Tau battlesuits if 2 of the same weapon count it as Twin-Linked?

lord_blackfang
29-04-2006, 13:10
Just to throw something else out there, do you think War Walkers should have 2 weapons or like the new Tau battlesuits if 2 of the same weapon count it as Twin-Linked?

Yes, two should be twin-linked. Tau and Nids both have this rule.

Montserrat
29-04-2006, 14:10
Yes, two should be twin-linked. Tau and Nids both have this rule.

Warwalkers weapons are not linked, they both have independant mecanics for moving and aiming, is not the same as a 2 lascannons put thogeter...look at the chimera for example, have the option to have 2 H.bolter, but that is no twinlinked. The warwalker is not a sentinel or a dread, is the eldar warwalker and has is own rules, dont try to make another imperial vehicle.

EDIT: i liked this option, but the mini looks horryble for me, dont have any, i hope the redo will be impresive.

Sotec
29-04-2006, 15:37
Wow. What a lot of hot air. Please go and just play games...

hivefleetcarrion
29-04-2006, 16:07
Warwalkers weapons are not linked, they both have independant mecanics for moving and aiming, is not the same as a 2 lascannons put thogeter...look at the chimera for example, have the option to have 2 H.bolter, but that is no twinlinked. The warwalker is not a sentinel or a dread, is the eldar warwalker and has is own rules, dont try to make another imperial vehicle.

EDIT: i liked this option, but the mini looks horryble for me, dont have any, i hope the redo will be impresive.


unless this is going to be a eldar only thing all other races walkers usually have twin linked. sure between 4th ed and the nid codex mcs could have 2 of the same weapons and fire them, but that was scrapped in the nid codex(well for tmc anyway). although this would keep them different to every other race, all races cept eldar have twin linked while eldar have 2 weapons instead

also arent warwalkers being re-moulded, or am i dreaming of a rumor?

Sareld
29-04-2006, 16:10
Wow. What a lot of hot air. Please go and just play games...

Your point is... what? Please go and contribute to the discussions, or dont post at all. This forum seems to suffer under huge loads of spam, and I think replies like this is the reason why some threads can explode into near a hundred pages overnight. If you dont like the "hot air", dont read the threads.

Sotec
29-04-2006, 16:46
My point is, and this should be an obvious one, that there is very little that any of us can do unless we are part of the playtesting teams. There are some good ideas here, and some bad ones. This thread is a whole lot of pointless conjecture and time wasting until the codex comes out. At that time a lot of things will be made clear, and many things that I'm sure were not even considered here will be changed. There is little point in contributing to a discussion that has no solid basis for said discussion. What if's are just that, and a waste of my time.

I read these threads when I need a laugh, or when sheer idiotic curiosity gets the worst of me.

Gamers just starting in the hobby might read this and say to themselves "what am I getting myself into". That is bad for my hobby, so I take exception to people carrying on like this, without calling it what it is. A collective brain fart of monumental proportions.

Cheers!
Sotec

Farseer Il`uvatar
29-04-2006, 18:00
Yeah, Sotek, and I'm sure being a condescending bastard who involves themselves in a conversation just to say the conversation is worthless and all involved are idiots helps the hobby. Why should anyone care if you consider their posts a waste of your time; you are the one wasting your time not them. I agree that this is excessive, I read the first page then skipped to the last page and found that the line of thought was continuous, but I didn't feel the need to be a jerk about it, like you.

Bugger off Sotek

SonofUltramar
29-04-2006, 18:58
Ladies, handbags at 10 paces, please calm down:)

For a start its the hobby not your hobby Sotec and as was not so politely said if you don't like it why not go read something else or just don't post?

The point of conjecture is to express one's opinion on a matter and see what people think in a free and open way and perhaps make you think about lines of reasoning that may have not occured to you?

Sorry this isn't very Eldar esk but i figure someone should remind everyone that this is supposed to be part of the hobby we do for FUN

Anywho back to Eldar

I was just thinking about the Wraithlord Vs Carnifex example and it got me thinking, what if they did the same for the WL and you could buy it different Soul Stones and had an Aspect WL? For instance the Dark Reaper one might have a higher BS and better Save whereas a Banshee one might have higher WS and maybe Fleet?

Jon_Irenicus
29-04-2006, 19:07
I read these threads when I need a laugh, or when sheer idiotic curiosity gets the worst of me.

Gamers just starting in the hobby might read this and say to themselves "what am I getting myself into". That is bad for my hobby, so I take exception to people carrying on like this, without calling it what it is. A collective brain fart of monumental proportions.

Cheers!
Sotec

Not meaning to be considered a prick, but I must agree with most of what heīs said.
Right now, the rumour stagnancy leads to speculation, and while it isnīt bad, people discuss many options that will inevitably not be included.
Up to the point where people might take them for granted and will be screaming out for blood if they donīt find them in the new īdex.
Whatever we get from a new book, weīll just have to take it, adapt to it. Hopefully, itīll correct many of the current issues.

But nothing good comes out of insulting anyone. So please, letīs refrain from doing this before a mod comes in and kicks everyone into respecting each other.

Sotec, I donīt think you meant to sound like an arrogant bastard, just because you were a bucket of cold water dropped in out of nowhere :)

Back to what this is supposed to be, what can be learned from this discussion so far? Has the August release date been confirmed? Any of the supposed changes, like the Wraithlord getting shield and sword, plastic wraithguard?

Orbital
29-04-2006, 19:17
It happens. In the 2002 Chaos dex, Thousand Sons lost their immunity to S4 and got a price hike for their trouble.

What it makes me think is that 99% of what the Eldar have on foot (and a few vehicles) can be killed with S4 weaponry. But that's not good enough for Marine players... they want that last 1% as well, lest they have to resort to something other than bolters and balled-up fists to kill something that walks. Never mind the fact that all the S3 armies out there (of which there are many) are still at the exact some disadvantage; for some reason Marines need that bonus.

I can't get on board with that.

SonofUltramar
29-04-2006, 19:41
All i've heard for certain is that there will be new War Walkers, Banshees, Dark Reapers, Farseers, Warlocks, Rangers and Wraithlord. I've also heard rumours that the Avatar will become a special character so i'm guessing that would mean a new model to?

Lets just take a look a the Eldar range, how many of the models are looking outdated, Warp Spiders, Rangers, Wraithlord, War Walker, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard are a few off the top of my head, i reckon they'll all get redone, no way are GW going to have a new Codex come out with 10 year old models, just look at how they binned the whole Wood Elf range and started anew, much better:)

Jon_Irenicus
29-04-2006, 19:53
Yes, and given the secrecy behind it all, it might just be true. At least, letīs hope for it.
Not only the miniatures need a re-sculpt (not that desperately, because some of them are still very good), but more than that new rules to make them on-pair with whatīs still workable.

lord_blackfang
29-04-2006, 20:36
What it makes me think is that 99% of what the Eldar have on foot (and a few vehicles) can be killed with S4 weaponry. But that's not good enough for Marine players... they want that last 1% as well, lest they have to resort to something other than bolters and balled-up fists to kill something that walks. Never mind the fact that all the S3 armies out there (of which there are many) are still at the exact some disadvantage; for some reason Marines need that bonus.

I can't get on board with that.

It's not just about Marines. Heck, Marines have by far the least problems with Wraithlords what with ass-cannons and power fists all around.

Shooty armies like IG find Wraithlords exasperating because they have to dedicate anti-tank weapons to deal with them, weapons that should be shooting at the obscenely survivable Falcons and Wave Serpents.

I just think it's wrong that a supposedly fragile army can present a front that is nigh invulnerable to 90% of the enemy's weapons, while at the same time think that they themselves are entitled to weapons that can effectively deal with 90% of the enemy.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 20:44
It's not just about Marines. Heck, Marines have by far the least problems with Wraithlords what with ass-cannons and power fists all around.

Shooty armies like IG find Wraithlords exasperating because they have to dedicate anti-tank weapons to deal with them, weapons that should be shooting at the obscenely survivable Falcons and Wave Serpents.

I just think it's wrong that a supposedly fragile army can present a front that is nigh invulnerable to 90% of the enemy's weapons, while at the same time think that they themselves are entitled to weapons that can effectively deal with 90% of the enemy.

Oooo "Entitled". There's a loaded word you're shoving in peoples mouths. :)

The Wraithlord going to T7 really is about Marines. I've never heard or seen a Guard player complain about Wraithlords and, even if I had, it's really only a matter of one dice difference for them (wounding on a 3 instead of a 4 with missiles, for instance). It's a bonus which would be a gift-wrapped present for Marine armies. The other armies would only lightly benefit from it.

As for a "Fragile" army that's invulnerable to 90% of the enemy's weaponry... I think that's a bit of a generalization (or maybe you've never seen what happens to Guardians when a Whirlwind starts blasting them).

I do, however, believe that Falcons are *way* too tough. I hope that changes in the new codex cause, man... I shouldn't feel sorry for my opponent when he throws everything he has at one and it still takes 5 turns to bring it down. :rolleyes:

sulla
30-04-2006, 00:13
Oooo "Entitled". There's a loaded word you're shoving in peoples mouths. :)

The Wraithlord going to T7 really is about Marines. I've never heard or seen a Guard player complain about Wraithlords and, even if I had, it's really only a matter of one dice difference for them (wounding on a 3 instead of a 4 with missiles, for instance). It's a bonus which would be a gift-wrapped present for Marine armies. The other armies would only lightly benefit from it.

As for a "Fragile" army that's invulnerable to 90% of the enemy's weaponry... I think that's a bit of a generalization (or maybe you've never seen what happens to Guardians when a Whirlwind starts blasting them).

I do, however, believe that Falcons are *way* too tough. I hope that changes in the new codex cause, man... I shouldn't feel sorry for my opponent when he throws everything he has at one and it still takes 5 turns to bring it down. :rolleyes:


Guard don't have whirlwinds... or are you back to talking about marines again?

Orbital
30-04-2006, 05:26
Guard don't have whirlwinds... or are you back to talking about marines again?

Yeah. Marines. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Dark Muse
30-04-2006, 08:58
You could sub out Whirlwind with a Griffon though if you wanted to talk IG.

Orbital
30-04-2006, 09:00
Or Basilisk... or mortars... or lots of other things that squish Guardians like ants. :)

Sarevok
30-04-2006, 14:17
What it makes me think is that 99% of what the Eldar have on foot (and a few vehicles) can be killed with S4 weaponry. But that's not good enough for Marine players... they want that last 1% as well, lest they have to resort to something other than bolters and balled-up fists to kill something that walks.

If you were to actually try and kill a T7 wraithlord with bolters and fists you'd see how stupid it was.

Now a marine firing a bolter has a 0.037 chance of wounding per shot, and a marine in CC has a 0.028 chance of wounding per attack.

Now if you were playing marines would you shoot your bolters at the Wraithlord (where you'll need average of 81 shots to kill) or at those T3 guardians and aspects?

Really if the WL is getting an invulnerable save option it should go down to T7.

Orbital
30-04-2006, 18:10
If you were to actually try and kill a T7 wraithlord with bolters and fists you'd see how stupid it was.

Now a marine firing a bolter has a 0.037 chance of wounding per shot, and a marine in CC has a 0.028 chance of wounding per attack.

Now if you were playing marines would you shoot your bolters at the Wraithlord (where you'll need average of 81 shots to kill) or at those T3 guardians and aspects?

Really if the WL is getting an invulnerable save option it should go down to T7.

I don't think the Wraithlord should get an invulnerable save, really.

As for the Marines wounding the Wraithlord... when you shoot a bolter, is ut usually just one? Or is it a whole squad? Or two? And if the Wraithlord has perfect attacking/wounding in combat it'll still take him 4 turns to wipe out a unit of 10. Are the odds high that the Marines can take him? No... but they're far from nothing.

BloodiedSword
30-04-2006, 18:37
When SM are shooting at a Wraithlord, it's usually "I'm going to fire this lascannon and plasma gun at him, and I guess that means the bolters are wasted. Oh well, it's a Dreadnought equivalent so I didn't expect to do anything with those anyway".

The Marines have a good chance of putting many holes in it with the heavy weapons - they don't need to have their anti-infantry fire able to hurt it as well. It would be as if you had Dreadnoughts that were AV10 when bolters were shot at them, and AV12 at all other times - it doesn't make sense.

In CC.. that's a slightly different argument.

I guess I'd be ok with it going to T7 if it then became immune to S4 or lower shooting attacks like the Thousand Sons used to be, and by the same argument that they were (putting dents in the wraithbone shell with bolters really wouldn't do anything to it at all, whilst chopping bits off it would, slowly wear it down).

sulla
30-04-2006, 18:42
I don't think the Wraithlord should get an invulnerable save, really.

As for the Marines wounding the Wraithlord... when you shoot a bolter, is ut usually just one? Or is it a whole squad? Or two? And if the Wraithlord has perfect attacking/wounding in combat it'll still take him 4 turns to wipe out a unit of 10. Are the odds high that the Marines can take him? No... but they're far from nothing.

Hehe, bearing in mind that the majority of marine players on warseer get suckered into cut&paste armies there'll probably only be about 8 bolters in there army (4 in each min-maxed las/plasma squad)... Exagerating a little, I know, but there really are quite few marine players who place a high value on their boltguns...

Personally, I think a wraithlord should be no tougher than a carnifex... but then again, i think it would be in character if it could 'fleet' too (it should be more manouverable than a lumpen imperial dread), so what do I know...

Sulla

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 19:37
Personally, I think a wraithlord should be no tougher than a carnifex...

Yeah I have always wanted to know how GW justified the Wraithlord being toughness 8. It just makes no sense and easily has the best of both worlds. It doesn't need to fear small arms fire (even if your oppoanant gets behind it), it can move and fire with a BS of 4, cannot be stunned and shaken and can strike in inititive order in cc with powerfists (equivalent). They don't even suffer from the same problems that Wraithguard do. Its so badly out of step with the rest of the codex its untrue.

Kahadras

Rork
30-04-2006, 20:01
Yeah I have always wanted to know how GW justified the Wraithlord being toughness 8. It just makes no sense and easily has the best of both worlds.

The wraithlord has very few working parts or living organs to let it down. If you blast a chunk out of a brick wall, the rest of the brick wall is likely to stay standing.

A carnifex has soft bits (by comparison), a wraithlord doesn't.

The wraithlord is easy to kill as long as you anticipate it will be there. All the weapons that work against a dreadnought work against the wraithlord plus all the weapons with a flat to-wound roll (sniper rifles, neuro-gauntlets, agonisers etc).

The wraithlord has had its day.

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 20:05
The wraithlord has very few working parts or living organs to let it down. If you blast a chunk out of a brick wall, the rest of the brick wall is likely to stay standing.

Surely then Wraithguard should be toughness 8 as well as they are made out of the same stuff.

Kahadras

noneedforaname
30-04-2006, 20:15
and sniper rifles, agonisers etc can also take down dreadnaughts.

Jon_Irenicus
30-04-2006, 20:52
Surely then Wraithguard should be toughness 8 as well as they are made out of the same stuff.

Kahadras

Sorry to enter out of nowhere, but that was as sound as comparing a Fiat Punto to a Ferrari.

Theyīre both cars. Right?

Sildani
30-04-2006, 20:56
Not nearly as easily. Against dreadnoughts, sniper rifles get 2d6 period, against 'Lords they get 4+. A world of difference.

As for Wraithguard not getting T8 - I guess Wraithlords have thicker wraithbone shells.

BloodiedSword
30-04-2006, 21:00
The point is that the Wraithlord's armour plating (if you can even call it "armour" - it's not really protecting anything apart from even more armour, it's only there to hold the thing together) is so much thicker than Wraithguards', that it takes much more powerful weaponry to even damage it.

Something that might be powerful enough to blow a Wraithguard's arm off on a lucky hit might only be able to dent the equivalent place on a Wraithlord - and no matter how many dents it made, it would not be able to cause the same critical damage.

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 21:01
Sorry to enter out of nowhere, but that was as sound as comparing a Fiat Punto to a Ferrari.

Theyīre both cars. Right?


They also both count as vehicles as well. Right?

Kahadras

Jon_Irenicus
30-04-2006, 21:09
I beg to differ, not on that, but on the terms. Theyīre both cars. Weīre both people. Are we alike? I donīt think so.

What you were saying was regarding the Wraithguard, so Iīll keep it at that then; they do not have the same amount of wraithbone as the Wraithlord, because the Eldar somehow *knew* he was going to be exposed to lots more fire than the Wraithguard.

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 21:21
What you were saying was regarding the Wraithguard, so Iīll keep it at that then; they do not have the same amount of wraithbone as the Wraithlord, because the Eldar somehow *knew* he was going to be exposed to lots more fire than the Wraithguard.

Why not have it as a vehicle on par with a Dreadnought then rather than the monstrosity that we have at present which takes the best from vehicles and monsterous creatures.


Weīre both people. Are we alike? I donīt think so.


Well in terms of toughness we are (3 unless you are some kind of superhuman)

Kahadras

Jon_Irenicus
30-04-2006, 21:24
While being vulnerable to a load other weapons, like sniper rifles. I find the concept refreshing and a lot better than "yet" another armour value.
And it wouldnīt translate properly... If it had the vehicle properties, itīd had to roll on the vehicle charts, etc.

As it is, itīs a "Wraithguard" big daddy, and I quite like that. IIRC the Talos is treated like a vehicle, but it should follow the same rules. Just MHO.

lord_blackfang
30-04-2006, 21:30
While being vulnerable to a load other weapons, like sniper rifles

Which only Marines and (oh, my!) Eldar can field in any significant quantity.

Jon_Irenicus
30-04-2006, 21:36
Which only Marines and (oh, my!) Eldar can field in any significant quantity.

Oh. So?

People tend to look a tad... "bitter"... in these long threads. Thatīs why I generally avoid them.

Orbital
30-04-2006, 21:38
Which only Marines and (oh, my!) Eldar can field in any significant quantity.

Um... Guard? Tau? Hello?

calicojack
30-04-2006, 21:48
Which only Marines and (oh, my!) Eldar can field in any significant quantity.

Hey! And Kroot, thank you [grins]. That said, I think both the "it's a big Wraithguard, thus Toughness" and the "it's a dreadnought, thus Armour Value" argument have merit. Would I rather see it as an AV12 [Dreadnought] vehicle? Well, against most that would lower its capabilities significantly. Dreadnoughts quickly take hits. On the other hand, from a physical design standpoint, the Wraithlord's "vitals" are relatively exposed except from the front - a Toughness value [which suffers against sniper fire, and a few other "wounds on X" weapons] is also appropriate. Wraithbone and plasteel are not the same - so those using fluff to support one side or the other con't easily use the "car" analogy.

Any Toughness above 5, multi-wound Monstrous Creature is quite powerful, as it cannot be instantly killed. One with long-ranged weaponry becomes even moreso. Note however, that Tyranids can _also_ do the high-toughness, multi-wound Firing Platform trick. Is the Carnifex less ubiquitous than the Wraithlord?

One last note on this [continued] debate: the Wraithlord is a very different _style_ to the rest of the quick-in-quick-out Eldar theme. In the White Dwarf Designers' Notes for the last Eldar codex, our esteemed author noted that the Wraithlord was the one really forgiving unit in the Eldar list, with which you could be [and I quote] "foolhardy." That would be one reason right there to make some change or other to the Wraithlord. It doesn't fit with the rest of the army's style [unless your army is all Wraithguard - do-able under the Craftworlds lists, but that volume wasn't published yet when the Designers' Notes issue came out].

El Ravager
30-04-2006, 23:10
re: Starcannons

A lot of folks are talking about increasing the str to 7 and decreasing the shots to 2... Why not go the other direction. Make it str5 and leave the number of shots at 3. That would decrease its ability to take out light armour making it less versatile, but still leave it very good at killing heavy armoured infantry which seems to be what it was designed to do.

Gotchaye
30-04-2006, 23:51
I can't say I particularly care about the Wraithlord - they don't seem to fit, in my eyes, and so I don't use them. If Wraithlords were to become T6 and pick up wings, I'd start taking them, but I don't see that happening.

I think that the current fluff demands that it be a monstrous creature, though. There are reasons that vehicles are set up the way they are. All you have to do is penetrate the outer protective shell in order to do massive damage. One shot can disable the crew or destroy vital systems, resulting in a drastic loss of ability. It could even find a fuel tank or power plant, destroying the thing. A Wraithlord, like a Carnifex, is tough through and through. There's no 'outer shell'; the whole thing is Wraithbone. There's no crew to shake or stun, and the Lord is even less likely to be distracted by bits of it flying off than are living MCs. The weapons are entirely self-contained, not drawing power or ammunition from a central plant - it's much harder to disable them. In fact, it's going to be harder to disable them than it is to destroy a 'fexes guns, since those at least require several connections to the main body (I think). They're no more vulnerable to immobilization than anything else on two legs. Finally, there's no vulnerable central plant or fuel tank that will cause the whole thing to explode - arguably, its Spirit Stone is a weak point, but that's no more of a vulnerability than is a Daemon Prince's brain or heart, and we don't allow lucky kills on them.

Ravager - that's still a pretty hefty nerf - it's -20% to its intended target and much more to anything with higher T. What if it were S5 Heavy4? You stay almost the same against Marines (+6.7%) and are almost exactly as good against T5. It's at a -11% against T6, -33% against T7, and is the same against T8. It gets 33% fewer pens against AV10, cannot pen AV11 (the current SC glances less often but can still pen), and can't touch AV12.

Basically, the gun stays is either the same or worse against everything (excepting the negligible Marine buff) except T3, and that's the only problem I foresee. It's at +33% effectiveness against Guard. Now, if the Shuriken Cannon and/or Scatter Laser are correctly redone, this may not be a problem, but it's still a bit too good against hordes for my liking.

My problem with a reduction to S5 is that it makes the gun more anti-horde. Even if you keep it at 3 shots, you're going to have to cut the price a bit with the rather hefty nerf you're handing down, and that's going to make the gun a more cost-efficient Guard-killer. The problem people have with the gun is obviously not that the Starcannon is simply too good (that could be solved with a points adjustment) - the complaint seems to be that the Starcannon is too good at a variety of roles, making the other weapons obsolete. However, dropping its strength does nothing to make the Shuriken Cannon or Scatter Laser more attractive - it actually makes them less so. If the Starcannon were S5, either 3 shot or 4 shot, you'd simply see masses of Starcannons (as they'd be even better at dropping T3 opponents) and masses of Lances, with, perhaps, a few more Lances than you see now.

It still seems to me that the best way to get people to stop taking Starcannons is to make the other guns worthwhile while tacking on something like 5-10 points.

Misha
30-04-2006, 23:58
re: Starcannons

A lot of folks are talking about increasing the str to 7 and decreasing the shots to 2... Why not go the other direction. Make it str5 and leave the number of shots at 3. That would decrease its ability to take out light armour making it less versatile, but still leave it very good at killing heavy armoured infantry which seems to be what it was designed to do.

Another reason why not to up starcannon str is that str7 weapons are no longer defensive weapons. This is often missed by str7 lobbysts

LostTemplar
01-05-2006, 00:03
Well, it then ceases to be a defensive weapon. thats what Scatter Lasers and Shuriken Cannons should be good for, anyways.

But I don't advocate such a change, though. Heavy 2, seems fine with me.

lord_blackfang
01-05-2006, 00:29
Um... Guard? Tau? Hello?
Guard, not in any significant quantity. Tau don't have sniper rifles at all.



Any Toughness above 5, multi-wound Monstrous Creature is quite powerful, as it cannot be instantly killed. One with long-ranged weaponry becomes even moreso. Note however, that Tyranids can _also_ do the high-toughness, multi-wound Firing Platform trick. Is the Carnifex less ubiquitous than the Wraithlord?

Yes, because it can be killed with a reasonable amount of firepower or melee attacks.


Another reason why not to up starcannon str is that str7 weapons are no longer defensive weapons. This is often missed by str7 lobbysts
Sounds like a pro, not a con, of the change. However, this would only "fix" the Falcon, it doesn't make a difference to other starcannon-toting units.

Orbital
01-05-2006, 00:32
Guard, not in any significant quantity. Tau don't have sniper rifles at all.

Tau Sniper Drones (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tau/gallery/15/).

They're not rifles, no... but they're snipers all the same and worth being afraid of.

Chimerologist
01-05-2006, 02:12
Guard, not in any significant quantity. Tau don't have sniper rifles at all.


On the other hand, Ratling Snipers are the second-cheapest snipers in the game, IIRC.

Further, the cheapest, Kroot Hunters, can be taken as allies (if your group is into that sort of thing) by lots of armies.

Sniper Drones are armed with Rail Rifles (I think?), not Sniper Rifles, so they don't wound on 4+, but aren't they AP3? I'd be interested to see how the math works out on them, but since I don't have the Tau codex, I'm not about to do it myself (since I'd want to work out point-efficiency, as well).



Yes, because it can be killed with a reasonable amount of firepower or melee attacks.


A Carnifex taken as a Heavy Support choice generally has 5W, and may have T7 and/or a 2+ save, as well. The T7 doesn't matter against S4 (Bolters) but if it has the other two, it may as well be immune to small arms fire (Bolters).

In fact, T7 will make it immune to S3, but I've never heard IG players complain about a Carnifex or Talos (or a Wraithlord, if it comes to that) being immune to lasgun fire (although that's not quite an equal comparison, I know).

It takes something like 177 S4 hits (whether they be bolter shots, or MEq CC attacks), on average, to drop a 5W, 2+ save Carnifex. That's hits, not shots/attacks. If you hit on 3+, it's 265.5 attacks! On 4+, it's 354!

I'm not entirely certain what my point is, by the way. Just thought I'd share my thoughts.

joshypoo
01-05-2006, 05:36
Guard, not in any significant quantity. Tau don't have sniper rifles at all.

but they do have masses of s5 weapons instead of a few sniper weapons so i'd say tau are pretty well off against wraithlords as is. they do have sniper drones and i'm sure theyre more effective than other sniper weapons because tau get all the cool toys.

Orbital
01-05-2006, 05:39
As soon as one person suggests that the Tau are at some kind of disadvantage against Wraithlords because they don't have sniper rifles, this thread's "Batsh1t Meter" will officially be in the red.

Danny Internets
01-05-2006, 06:27
I never understood why people think the wraithlord is overpowered, to me it seems like the perfect price for what it does. It only moves 6" a turn so if you don't want to fight it you don't have to--just move away. It has a single heavy weapon and is pretty tough, but since it's so big and slow you can pretty much just take it down at your convenience. And with rending becomming more and more common it's even less of a danger. Lascannons also make short work of it.

Perhaps it's just the armies I play. My Ultramarines, Lysander's Imperial Fists, Necrons, Biel-Tan, and Alpha Legion have never had a problem with wraithlords, even when my opponent takes 3 of them. I'd rather see 3 wraithlords than 3 falcons any day.

glimli
01-05-2006, 09:10
.

If you want to go by that approach then make it strike at I1 in combat as it is wielding powerfists- even the codex entry states as such and there are no rules for Monstrous Creatures ignoring the I1 powerfist penalty....

Seriously, I much prefer the 0-1 as that would a) make sense background wise (these are the spirits of revered ancestors you're using) and b) would actually mean than on average Iyanden forces would have more wraithlords as they should.


i'm pretty sure it has dread nought close combat weapons, they double strength nothing about reducing initiative.

Adept
01-05-2006, 09:38
re: Starcannons

A lot of folks are talking about increasing the str to 7 and decreasing the shots to 2... Why not go the other direction. Make it str5 and leave the number of shots at 3. That would decrease its ability to take out light armour making it less versatile, but still leave it very good at killing heavy armoured infantry which seems to be what it was designed to do.

Frankly, I think people get too hung up on the weapon names.

A starcannon should be this! No, it should be this!

Instead, I prefer to think about the types of weapons the army needs, and design stats to suit.

For taking out tanks, walkers, monstrous creatures and terminators:

S9 AP1 ASSAULT1 with 48" range.

For taking out heavy infantry and light vehicles:

S6 AP3 ASSAULT2 with 36" range

For killing light infantry:

S5 AP4 ASSAULT3 with 36" range

For regular infantry weapons:

S4 AP5 ASSAULT1 with 24" range

I think making all weapons assault weapons lends a very 'agile' feel to the list, rather than the static shooty feel you get with the IG.

Kahadras
01-05-2006, 11:16
i'm pretty sure it has dread nought close combat weapons, they double strength nothing about reducing initiative.

That's the point though I think that DSS is trying to make. Basicaly the dreadnought close combat weapon is a powerfist in all but name. It again highlights the fact that the Wraithlord is neither a vehicle or a monsterous creature but gets the best bits of both. Personaly I like the idea of it being droped down to initative one as a way of demonstrating its Wraithsight (which oddly seems to have been missed out by GW)

Kahadras

Nexto
01-05-2006, 11:34
afaik, it was already stated that the WL's Concept won't change, wasnt it?

glimli
01-05-2006, 11:39
That's the point though I think that DSS is trying to make. Basicaly the dreadnought close combat weapon is a powerfist in all but name. It again highlights the fact that the Wraithlord is neither a vehicle or a monsterous creature but gets the best bits of both. Personaly I like the idea of it being droped down to initative one as a way of demonstrating its Wraithsight (which oddly seems to have been missed out by GW)

Kahadras



yes but a man on foot needs a big swing to gain some momentum with a powerfists, dreadnoughts however weigh several tonnes and their fists are operatered by powerful servos hydraulics, pyscho reactive wraithbonetc.

Adept
01-05-2006, 12:35
yes but a man on foot needs a big swing to gain some momentum with a powerfists, dreadnoughts however weigh several tonnes and their fists are operatered by powerful servos hydraulics, pyscho reactive wraithbonetc.

But Wraithlords aren't Dreadnoughts. They're monstrous creatures. Yet they are effectively given Dreadnought close combat weapons, instead of just using the MC rules.

Rork
01-05-2006, 13:14
Personaly I like the idea of it being droped down to initative one as a way of demonstrating its Wraithsight (which oddly seems to have been missed out by GW)


Wraithlords are supposed to controlled by the spirits of mighty heroes whose minds are much stronger than the spirits that control wraithguard. They don't have wraithsight because the Eldar put the best of the best in there for precisely that reason.

There is no reason to change the stats of the wraithlord - as the game has evolved he has become much, much weaker.

hivefleetcarrion
01-05-2006, 14:10
Wraithlords are supposed to controlled by the spirits of mighty heroes whose minds are much stronger than the spirits that control wraithguard. They don't have wraithsight because the Eldar put the best of the best in there for precisely that reason.

There is no reason to change the stats of the wraithlord - as the game has evolved he has become much, much weaker.


true, but then again only special space marines are meant to be turned into dreads. they dont just pick some 1/2 dead scout up off the battle field make them into dreads.

also as the game has evolved everything else has become so much more expensive pts wise. comparisions are being made between the wl and a carnie. everyone seems to forget that a carnie has to pay for all its extra upgrades. want a t7 2+ sv carnie, sure have one, but its still only moving 6" a turn and that will cost you more than 1/2 an additional carnifex. it would likely be easier to get an additional carnie and walk behind the meatsheild one for that price.

the fact that it may be armed with a good array of weapons, while immune to small arms fire, and majority of most armies combat specialists for its current points value is what i beleive is the problem. the carnie as good as it is still suffers from needing synapse, or it has a chance it wont move.

i want to know how anyone can argue that anything that has no physical body and whose spirt is stored in a rock can move a vehical as well as the wraithlord does.

Sildani
01-05-2006, 14:16
Simply because GW said it could. Trying to inject reality into this game is rather futile - don't bother.