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Sakura
29-04-2006, 06:12
People who arnt the Eldar hate the starcannon, and to the degree the Brightlance.
And to me it seems like the only options to take, I mean, why bother choose the others right.

So.
What would make these two weapons less apealing but still overpowered like an Eldar weapon should be to make up for fragility and works in the fluff.

And.
What would make the other big guns better?

Play testing is on so I dont want them to ignore the great ideas from the thousands of unpaid play testers with tens of thousands of games played.

Sakura
29-04-2006, 06:23
I dont want them to ruin the Starcannon or Brightlance. (Remember there is a rude darklance army)

average of 2 marines per turn per starcannon is ok for their points cost and sometimes bad Bskill. 2 Terminator is not fair. maybe AP3 is better.

Shurikan cannons certainly need the rending 4 shot business.
its basically the most perfect upgrade.
The Assault became damn good because of it, and because they are only available on terminators (expensive) dreads (minimal) and Landspeeders (no popular) they were able to be OPowered.
Shuricannons can be used all over the army but theyre meant to be, maybe a 25% point cost to go along with it or something.
I might consider taking one then.

Scatter lasers... good for swarms and swarms only.
forget D6, it should be 6 full stop, strength 4 AP 5or6 and yeah.

Missile launchers... something ive never thought useful for it points, it needs the be less than a brightlance because a bright lance can do whatever it does better except the plasma thing which makes it swarm/heavy but not better than the scatter or brightlance, so its a dual purpose thing.

catapults need to be 18 range no more or less.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 06:24
The thing is... the reason those weapons are feared isn't solely about the weapons themselves. The Starcannon, in particular, takes advantage of a typical hole in Marine strategy: Getting cover.

I stopped taking Starcannons when I realized how useless they are for the points once Marines start playing smart.

Danny Internets
29-04-2006, 07:01
Orbital makes a really good point, with the advent of buffed cover saves in 4th edition low AP weaponry is significantly less powerful, especially when opponents wise up and realize that they can get better saves from cover for free instead of paying huge points. I have to admit that I still really like my plasma guns (for some reason that defies probability I almost never overheat), but I've been experimenting a lot with heavy bolters, particularly with my razorback marine army.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 07:02
I've really been trying to work the Scatter Laser angle lately because I play against a lot of really smart lads who know to grab some ruins and stay there. I figure if I can't take their save away entirely then I might as well make them roll saves over and over and over until they puke. :)

Da Reddaneks
29-04-2006, 07:11
you know the best way to make an eldar weapon attactive is to give it to an ork!

boogle
29-04-2006, 07:54
Eldar missile Launchers are the best all-round Eldar weapon, it's really just Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers that need boosting (the Heavy6 seems about right for the SL, not too sure about the Shuriken Cannon, i don't think it'll see rending, but it might get the Shreiker Shell upgrade, causes pinning or auto fallback maybe)

Smoking Frog
29-04-2006, 09:01
I liked the idea that someone proposed before about the EML. Replace the option of "krak" which so Imperial Army, and make it "haywire". That way, you have "haywire" to deal with tanks, and "plasma" to deal with troops.

I think the scatter laser needs to go back to 6 shots. Straight. No random roll thingy, just 6 shots. Or even H3+D3 shots at the very least.

A cheaper shuriken cannon, or to make it a standard choice. That way it's all about upgrading your cannon if you want, or just leave it as is for a nice compliment to the catapult. The shrieker upgrade mentioned above is also really good, a return to that where you could choose the ammo you wanted would be nice. Think about it, you pay a base 20-25 pts for your two guardians and platform that sports a Shuricannon, and for a certain price you can replace it with something else.

Starcannons I think are fine as is. Upping their cost would make people think hard about whether they should take them or not.

Brightlances also I think are good as is. I honestly can't think of a more specialised tank-buster, aside from melta weapons and maybe lascannons.


The strength of the Eldar and where their technological achievement lies is that they can field these weapons in almost any manner, whether with their infantry or on their vehicles. Unlike the Tau, whose heavier weapons require bulky power supplies, the Eldar can have a functioning brightlance on a grav-platfrom or on a tank. They have developed a manner of war that is very decisive and deadly to compensate for their fewer numbers and fragility. Even their defensive weaponry and tactics allows them to shift from place to place, keep their enemies tied up or just outright destroy them.

Gotchaye
29-04-2006, 09:06
My thought has always been that Eldar weapons ought to be better at their job than Imperial weapons, while not necessarily being as good at other things. This is in keeping with the two Eldar themes of powerful weaponry and specialization. We do need to decide whether we're looking for our weaponry at BS3 to be better than BS4 Imperial weaponry or better than BS3, though.

We obviously need to figure out what each weapon is supposed to do. The Starcannon is pretty obviously there for killing heavy infantry, and the Bright Lance is clearly a tank-hunter, but the others are fairly confused. Let's assume, for a moment, that one of them is there for killing light infantry, one is for taking on light vehicles, and the other does something special, shall we say.

Our light infantry weapon needs to be better at killing GEQs than the Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon, but shouldn't necessarily be as effective as the Heavy Bolter against bigger things. S4 (or even S3) is an obvious choice, as it maximizes effectiveness towards low-T targets. AP4 is another almost-given, since otherwise we'll end up preferring out anti-heavy weapon against 4+ save targets, and it also helps boost effectiveness against light infantry relative to other targets. So, knowing that a BS4 Assault Cannon kills 2.33 T3 4+ targets, we can find the equivalent number of BS3 S4 AP4 shots, that being 7. Alternately, if we've decided that the Assault Cannon will be disregarded as an incredibly out-of-place weapon, 6 shots serves to best the Heavy Bolter. Thus, we have S4 AP4 Heavy 6, with some undecided range, probably between 24" and 36". That doesn't seem too bad, and if it were the ShuriCan, would be taken as an upgrade on all kinds of vehicles. Note that the Heavy 6 still less effective than the Heavy Bolter (or Assault Cannon, as if you doubted it) against anything bigger than T4.

We then need a weapon for taking on light vehicles, defined as AV12 and less, as opposed to the Autocannon (or Assault Cannon, since it's better). One rather obvious statline is S7 AP6 Heavy 3, trading ability against infantry and range for another shot. This could work for a Scatter Laser. Alternately, S8 AP4 Heavy 2 is promising, perhaps as a combined Plasma Warhead shot from the EML, it losing its generalist dual fire mode and becoming more specialized and Eldar.

One weapon, probably either the Scatter Laser or EML, needs to have a completely different role. I personally don't think that generalist weapons fit the Eldar very well, so I would prefer the EML lose its dual-fire mode. However, this means we're left with a role-less weapon. My favored solution is to make the EML an Autocannon equivalent, while making the Scatter Laser downright strange. What if it were something like S6 AP5 Heavy 3 Ignore Cover? No, it's not much against MEQs in cover, but it works wonders against Guardsmen, who previously had what was essentially a 4+ or 5+ invulnerable save against our shooting. It remains less effective than the anti-light gun against Guard outside of cover, but is easily superior against particularly tricky enemies.

As for the Starcannon and Bright Lance, I really see nothing wrong with them. The Starcannon is ridiculously expensive, and is only taken in mass because there are no other valid choices. Bringing it down to Heavy 2 simply encourages people to take even more of them, since they'll need more to deal with the everpresent MEQ. It's also downright insulting, since it makes Assault Cannons better at dispatching MEQs, and makes the two guns virtually identical against Terminators. S7 is too generalist of a strength for that sort of AP - it's just about equally good against heavy infantry and light vehicles. AP3 leaves the Eldar list with few means, excepting Fire Dragons and Banshees, of taking out 2+ saves, and not everyone wants to take lots of Aspects. Unlike the Imperium, we don't have all kinds of AP1 and AP2 weaponry capable of deep-striking right into the middle of the enemy's lines. We ought to have a gun that's better than the Assault Cannon at taking out 2+ saves. For those whose problem with the Starcannon is that it's too good against vehicles and MCs (though I can't say I agree with them), a S5 AP2 Heavy 4 statline may work. Marine kills increase by a negligible amount and efficiency against bigger targets, especially T7 and AV11/12 targets, plummets. The only problem is that you've then got something exactly as good as a BS4 Heavy Bolter at dispatching light infantry. In the end, I think it's better to keep the S6, though I have no problem with a price increase - I just think stat-nerfing it is very unfluffy.

As for the Bright Lance, I realize my other suggested changes make it somewhat obsolete, what with an S8 multishot in the list. However, this seems the perfect opportunity to address the complaints of many Eldar players that the Lance simply can't compare to the Lascannon. The Lascannon has better range and is better against almost every vehicle, as well as the higher-end MCs. It's just as good against almost all of the rest of the vehicles, too. It only loses out (and, with BS4 as compared to BS3, this isn't even that true) against the exceptionally rare non-Lance-immune AV14. That's a really short list, including such popular vehicles as the Leman Russ and basic Marine Land Raider. Would it be gamebreaking to give the Lance S9 and a point-boost? Against most vehicles, it's just a short-ranged Lascannon. Against AV13s, it picks up a little steam, and is almost as good as a Tau Railgun (note that the numbers of Lances and Railguns in most competitive lists are just about the same). Against AV14s, it absolutely shines, as it is supposed to (whereas now it's bested by the Railgun), and it isn't as completely useless against the Lance-immune majority of AV14s.

Granted, according to Engel, none of this matters anymore. Of course, it's always nice to be able to say "called that" when the 'dex comes out, or perhaps "told you so" after they ruin everything.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2006, 09:32
Eldar missile Launchers are the best all-round Eldar weapon, it's really just Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers that need boosting


I never saw the need to take the Missile Launcher. It offers some flexibility, true. But I never really felt I got anything worthwhile out of the extra cost over a Bright lance or a Starcannon.

However, I do think it's an okay weapon, it just pays to much from being 'flexible'. The stats and all are okay.

The Scatter Laser needs to loose the random number of shoots. Just make it Heavy 6, str 6 and either no AP at all, or AP 6. It got lots of shots, but it got no penetration power. That should give it a specific niche to fill, and make it a distinct weapon.

The Shuriken Cannon, I'd be tempted to just make it into a heavy bolter look alike, possibly give it pinning to account for the Shrieker ammunition(maybe as an upgrade?). And yes, I know that in 2nd you lost the sustained fire when using Shrieker ammunition. But pinning doesn't seem to do all that much against by far the majority of your targets, so I don't think there will be to much problems with that.

Another fix could be to look at who can use what weapons. I'd be tempted to cut down on the options for normal guardians, and maybe instead have Grav platforms as there own special troop type. So a normal guardian squad doesn't get the support, rather they gain access to some special weapons(flamers etc.), and the grav platforms are kept in specialised heavy guardian squads. Might even open up for having more of a mix then, including D-cannons, vibro cannons etc in there too.

Elanthanis
29-04-2006, 10:54
Shurikan cannons certainly need the rending 4 shot business.
its basically the most perfect upgrade.

Just because one marine weapon is considered overpowered I think is a fairly good argument for them not making the same mistake again. Upping the points on it really won't discourage it enough in my opinion either (see crystal targeting matricies).

I would rather see a unique eldar weapon than an assault cannon clone. My personal gut instinct is "bring back shrieker ammo" and leave as is. (any casualties=instant leadership check or something along those lines).

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2006, 11:00
Oh, forgot to say. Personally I hope there isn't a single rending weapon in the eldar list. It's not a good game mechanism at all, leading to some bizar results, and I think we would all be much better of with seeing as little to that special rule as possible. So please, no rending Eldar weapons.

EarthScorpion
29-04-2006, 11:31
I always felt that the whole Lance rule should be gotten rid of for the Bright Lance. Instead it should be S9 AP1, which make it better against all vechiles, marginally, than the Lascannon (Auto-penatrate).

athamas
29-04-2006, 12:03
i think the 3 basic eldar weapons whould all be S6, and then have AP dependant on the number of shots...

so, starcannon, Heavy 2, ap 2, S. cannon, Heavy 4 AP4 [it only needs a slight ap boost to put it on a par with hvy bolter, and the extra shot because its eldar tech!] and the scantter laser being Heavy 6, AP6..

gives them a nice range of weapons that all have distinctive roles, unlike now where no one takes scatterlasers due to them being highly likely to roll a 1 at the most critical time! with 6 shots they will rip through light infantry in the open, but barly scratch Heavy infantry!, which is what the other weapons are for!

Dead
29-04-2006, 12:41
i always kind of like the idea of a shuriken cannon being the main weapon of eldar. maybe give it an extra shot for every 6 you roll to hit instead of rending which i agree would just be too nutty on such a common weapon

Helicon_One
29-04-2006, 12:54
This again?

First off, the Golden Rules:
- NOTHING gets Rending
- NOTHING gets a randomised rate of fire.
- NOTHING is given a radically different niche from what it had before

*cut'n'paste*

Shuriken cannon Range 24" Strength 6 AP 4 Assault 4
Scatter laser Range 48" Strength 5 AP - Assault 6
Bright lance Range 36" Strength 8 AP 1 Assault 1, Lance
E. missile launcher
-------- krak Range 48" Strength 8 AP 3 Assault 1
-------- plasma Range 48" Strength 4 AP 4 Assault 1 Blast, Pinning, Ignore Cover
Starcannon Range 24" Strength 6 AP 2 Assault 3

Tim

Sareld
29-04-2006, 13:07
So, AL our heavy weapons need to be assault? I dont think so. And lowering the S of the scatterlaser would force it to change role, as it wouldnt be able to kell light armor anymore. Personally, I want this to happen to the eldar heavy weapons:

[cun'n'paste]

Scatter Lasers: Hmm... I think that this weapon was intended to be an anti light vehicle gun, due to its *slightly* better RoF, but the RoF increase was too small, and the weapon failed to get popular. I say, maintain all characteristics of this weapon, but upgrade its S to 7, and you will have a mean gun with an obivous purpose, that will be chosen over the starcannon when the task it light armor killing. Op the price of the gun *considerably*. I can already hear my raider squads scream...

EML: Basically a good gun, but it lacks punch when fired with BS3. And imperial krak missiles? Wtf? I say, let us fire haywire missiles from this baby. Yeah, I know that it would become a lot better vs tanks, but it would be a lot less worth vs. MCs, and it would loose the power to instant kill characters.. I think that those things balalces eachother out.

Shuriken Cannon: Under the current rules, this is what you buy when you for some sad reason cant take a starcannon. I hate how the eldar has so many similar S6 heavy 3 weapons, and I think that this gun should be changed to become more unique.. something along the lines of range 24" S5 Ap4 heavy 4, so it would beat the starcannon in the game of killing light infantry.

Bright Lance: Keep it the way it is.

Starcannon: Keep it like it is.

Under the current rules, this is what you would get for diffrent jobs:

Killing MEQs: Starcannons
Killing hordes: Starcannons
Killing <AV12 vehicles: Starcannons
Killing >AV12 vehicles: Bright Lances
Need an allround gun? Starcannons..

With my suggestion that would become:

Killing MEQs: Starcannons
Killing hordes: Shuriken Cannons
Killing <AV12 vehicles: Scatter Lasers
Killing >AV12 vehicles: Bright Lances
Need an allround gun? EML

[/cun'n'paste]

Helicon_One
29-04-2006, 14:29
So, AL our heavy weapons need to be assault? I dont think so.
Well virtually every heavy weapon in the Eldar list is on a vehicle or a grav platform anyway, so I'm not entirely sure what the problem is. The only thing I see it affecting is a Reaper Exarch with a Shurricannon or EML (and in my version of the list, Reapers would get Slow And Purposeful anyway).


And lowering the S of the scatterlaser would force it to change role, as it wouldnt be able to kell light armor anymore.
Scatter laser has always been the light infantry shredder of the bunch, and Eldar have too many S6 guns as it is. Besides, against AV10 and AV11 vehicles 6 S5 shots do nearly as well as an average of 3.5 S6 shots.

Tim

BloodiedSword
29-04-2006, 15:21
I don't see the different fire method on a Reaper Exarch being a problem - moving him prevents the others from firing. I really don't like the idea of Reapers getting Slow and Purposeful - they just don't have the mass required to move against the recoil, let alone fire accurately at the same time.

On the one hand, I'd be saddened if the Scatter Laser was reduced to S5 (it being my favourite weapon option). On the other, 6 shots? Definitely worth it.. Though I use it primarily as anti-infantry.

I think Shuriken Cannons could use Rending, but absolutely no way should they be given an extra shot as well. Assault Cannons with range 36" as the basic heavy weapon? That you can get 2 of on Vypers, and also on Jetbikes and every other Eldar vehicle?

If that happens, regardless of the points increase, people will be wishing for "the good old days" when they only had to walk into a forest of Starcannons on boards with no cover. High points costs do not make weapons ineffective - the current starcannon demonstrates that.

zealousheretic
29-04-2006, 17:58
I'd rather they stay away from rending, especially on a weapon as widely available as a shuriken cannon.

The shreiker ammo idea is cool. The cannon picking up the ability to pin would be kinda nasty against some armies.

6 shots would probably do the scatter laser fine; one idea a friend of my suggested was to give it 2d3 shots, or 3+d3 shots. Still variable, but you're more likely to get a good number of shots with it.

SonofUltramar
29-04-2006, 19:27
Have to say i'm not a fan of Shuriken Cannons getting rending but maybe making it more like the Cyclic Ion Blaster and making 6 to wound AP1 would give it a punch against Infantry while still not making it an Eldar Assault Cannon which just seems to powerful for the numbers you could have in an army?

As for the rest, maybe bump the Scatter Laser up to 5 or 6 shots sounds OK and either 2 shots or AP3 for the Starcannon seem to be fine. The one weapon which i haven't seen mentioned is the Pulse Laser or am i the only person who uses Falcons, 2 of them in fact:)

Helicon_One
29-04-2006, 20:45
Aside from the horrific power, the problem with the Shurricannon getting Rending, or semi-Rending (the '6 to wound ignores armour' idea) is that it begins to intrude on the Starcannon role. If you want to blow away power armour and Termies, take a Starcannon! The Shurricannon can fit into its own niche of medium infantry (AP4) and light vehicles (S6) without treading on the toes of the other weapons, which should be the goal for each of the 'Big 5' weapons.

As for the Pulse Laser, 48" or 60" range, either S8 AP1 or S9 AP2, with the 'Pulse' rule taken directly from EpicArmageddon - if you hit, roll a second shot, and if the second shot hits, you get to take a third shot.

Tim

BloodiedSword
29-04-2006, 21:37
Well, the S6 multiple shots category is rather crowded with the Shuri cannon, Starcannon and Scatter laser..

So I guess at least one of them should have their Strength reduced. I have a horrible feeling that it's going to be the Scatter laser getting that treatment, but I can live with that if it gets 6 shots..

Nice idea with the Pulse laser.. I'm glad that there wasn't any " and so on" after the third shot :)

Helicon_One
29-04-2006, 22:48
Well, the S6 multiple shots category is rather crowded with the Shuri cannon, Starcannon and Scatter laser..
Which wouldn't be so bad if one of them wasn't the Starcannon, thus making the other two hopeless. But yes, diversification is required.


So I guess at least one of them should have their Strength reduced. I have a horrible feeling that it's going to be the Scatter laser getting that treatment, but I can live with that if it gets 6 shots..
6 shots for the scatter laser just fits - it takes it back to its 2nd Ed roots, gets away from the horrible Orky randomness of the current version.... heck, the SL model is even 6-barrelled, how can the new Eldar Codex NOT put it up to 6 shots? And at that level of firepower, S6 is just hideous, so it needs the slight strength drop.


Nice idea with the Pulse laser.. I'm glad that there wasn't any " and so on" after the third shot :)
Not my idea, but its perfect. Of course, with BS4 Falcons (either as an upgrade or as standard) it becomes truly scary.... but that's a good thing.

Tim

Adept
29-04-2006, 23:29
I'd be happy to modify Eldar weapons to closely resemble Imperial weapons.

For taking out tanks (and walkers, monstrous creatures, and terminators:

S9 AP1 ASSAULT 1 with 48" range. A better lascannon

For killing heavy infantry and light vehicles:

S6 AP3 ASSAULT 2 with 48" range. An Autocannon with less strength, but better AP.

For killing light infantry:

S5 AP4 ASSAULT 3 with 36" range. A move and fire Heavy Bolter

For the regular infantry grunts:

S4 AP5 ASSAULT 1 with 24" range

I don't give a stuff about names, I just think weapons should have distinct roles to encourage different weapons load-outs from time to time. I also think firing at full effect while on the move is a very 'Eldar' thing.

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 00:00
Personaly I never understand why Eldar players seem to want better weapons than any other race. It reminds me of several Eldar codexes written by different groups which massively overpowered the Eldar based on the fact that they were older and therefore their weapons, equipment, tanks should be far superior to those of other races.
Eldar weapons don't have to be more powerful than those of the Imperium or the Tau they should be different to highlight the fact that the Eldar fight differently. I would like to see a lot more short range, destructive weapons that match the Eldar idea of a force that performs hit and run attacks. Get in, cause as much damage as possible then pull back to do it again.

Kahadras

Spell_of_Destruction
30-04-2006, 00:06
Eldar weapons don't have to be more powerful than those of the Imperium or the Tau they should be different to highlight the fact that the Eldar fight differently. I would like to see a lot more short range, destructive weapons that match the Eldar idea of a force that performs hit and run attacks. Get in, cause as much damage as possible then pull back to do it again.


I started off disagreeing with you but came around to your idea at the end. Decreasing the range of the starcannon has never really been put forward as a means of balancing it but I think it requires further consideration (I realise of course that any alterations to the starcannon were probably done and dusted months ago). Certainly I think that Eldar weapons should be more destructive than their Imperial equivalents. "Technologically superior" should have SOME weight. I do quite like the idea of short ranged yet devastating weapons.

scarvet
30-04-2006, 01:15
Part of the hit & run attack is distract/ support/ guard by long range fire power. I deicde to give opinion about make their weapons better because
there is only two way to rebalance things in game systerm: cost and ability.
I personally do not recommand reduce the point cost of eldar heavy(infact all weapons) to suit what they do. Keeping eldar unit fraglie and give them ability to cause havoc should be the way to go.
About rending:The problem about assulta cannon is it got 4 shot at S6 Ap4 plus rending at BS 4. Without any of above, it will no be overpowered. shuriken cannon is only AP5 heavy3 at BS3 (in general), with a few ponit adjustment I am sure it will not be over powered. Any 6's to cuz Ap1 is not a bad choice for shuriken cannon; however, I will recommand and universe special for such weapon so that it have consistantce.

Kahadras
30-04-2006, 02:03
Certainly I think that Eldar weapons should be more destructive than their Imperial equivalents. "Technologically superior" should have SOME weight. I do quite like the idea of short ranged yet devastating weapons.


In some ways though I would like to see technologicaly superior as not just having better stats or more destrucive. I liked the old Eldar from Epic who used stuff like pychic weapons, lances, sonic and warp weapons. I don't think the Eldar should be about big, destructive weapons. Leave those to the younger races IMO. They should be more disruptive and subtle at long range. Stuff like monofilament webs, vibro cannons, distortion cannons, psychc lances that will force the enemy to ground or break up his battle line. Then swoop in with a lot of very powerful, close range firepower such as fusion guns and the like.
It moves the Eldar away from a race like the Tau who already have long range firepower pretty much sewn up as far as I can see and makes them a bit unique.

Kahadras

Smoking Frog
30-04-2006, 02:19
I really want to see how the GW boys do this. I want to see how they fix this whole mess up, and I want to light a massive bonfire in downtown Sydney and start chanting some weird african chants while dancing around it in celebration of a well done codex.