PDA

View Full Version : Would you get annoyed if YOU played this list?????



Sqallum
17-04-2012, 16:17
Hi! I am using the Blood Angels codex for my Night Lords, as I really like the Stormraven model, and the abundance of claws you can buy in the BA codex ; blood talons. lightning claws :D
Would you get annoyed if you saw this list:

1500 Night Lords

]Captain WITH Lightning Claw, Bolt Pistol

5 Terminators WITH Lightning Claws

Furiso Dreadnought WITH Blood Talons, Meltagun and Flamer

10 Assault Marines WITH Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, and a Rhino

10 Assault Marines WITH Lightning Claw, Flamer, and Meltagun

Stormraven Gunship WITH Assault Cannon, and Heavy Bolters

7 Sternguard WITH Power Fist, Plasma Gun and a Meltagun

6 Bikes WITH Lightning Claw

Thanks,
Sqallum

EDIT: THIS IS PRE HERESY

Chapters Unwritten
17-04-2012, 16:30
Why would this be annoying? It's clear from the list that you aren't doing it strictly to capitalize on BA bonuses.

Theocracity
17-04-2012, 16:34
What is it with the lack of confidence people have in certain codexes? Just because a list is viewed on the Internet as OP doesn't mean the list you make is automatically OP. You're not going to get yelled at for doing it, unless you play with jerks - in which case it probably doesn't matter what you do.

To answer your question, that list is fine. It doesn't use most of the tricks that people have problems with. The only point of contention might be using a different list for Chaos, but I have no problems with that and NL are the best fit anyhow.

Have some confidence in your lists, don't get pushed around just based on an army's reputation. If the new Chaos dex comes out and it's OP, would you stop using your NL with it just because? :P

Chapters Unwritten
17-04-2012, 16:43
I disagree. I have played a conservative Wolves list for some time and I get comped into oblivion or commented on all the time. So I don't blame him for being cautious.

Theocracity
17-04-2012, 17:00
I disagree. I have played a conservative Wolves list for some time and I get comped into oblivion or commented on all the time. So I don't blame him for being cautious.

Well if he's going to get yelled at just for using Blood Angels in the first place, it's not going to do much good for us to give out blessing is it?

I think it's worthwhile to understand what aspects make certain armies powerful or 'OP', rather than just assuming that the name means its automatically good.

MajorWesJanson
17-04-2012, 17:14
I'm just happy seeing a BA list without razorbacks.

Lord Damocles
17-04-2012, 17:49
I wouldn't be 'annoyed', but I would question why a very similar list couldn't have been made using Codex: Chaos Space Marines (you loose a couple of Claws rules-wise, but they can still be modelled as such).

Lord with Claw
5 Terminators with twin Claws
Dread with two DCCWs, Heavy Flamer
10 Marines with Fist, Melta, Flamer, Rhino
10 Raptors with Power Weapon, Melta, Flamer
Stormeagle
6 Bikes with Power Weapon

142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed.

Sqallum
17-04-2012, 17:56
Thanks guys. I was just checking the general opinion of the Interent. BTW, this is pre-heresy ;D
Sqallum

Sqallum
17-04-2012, 17:57
Thanks guys. I was just checking the general opinion of the Interent. BTW, this is pre-heresy ;D
Sqallum

Axeman1n
17-04-2012, 23:02
The existance of the CSM version makes the BA list cheesy/gamey. If you want to play CSM, use thier codex. This is my opinion. I'm not in the majority, but it is one opinion to take into consideration.

VendableFall
18-04-2012, 00:16
since this is pre-heresy (ie they are not even chaos yet) i cant see a reason why this would be cheesy in the slightest, they are loyalist marines and your using a loyalist marine dex, end of discussion in my mind.

tbh i wouldnt even have a problem if they were post-heresy, aslong as you have good reasons why your night lord's units mimick the rules for the blood angels units, ie there chaplain's (sang preists) inspires nearbuy units to ingore pain etc etc and the models are painted and modeld nicely.

i wouldd have more of a problem if they wernt painted tbh, but i suppose by the look of the posts above, thats just me... it saddens a little... as this hobby is about building YOUR army, how YOU want it, and im all for house rules and custom senarios!

mingnz
18-04-2012, 12:10
Is not always about the list, is about how friendly you play

ChrisMurray
18-04-2012, 12:52
I agree with several of the posters above, the list is fine, I wouldn't care what codex your using as long as it is modelled appropriately. I would much prefere to see it painted (or in the process of being painted) and that you are friendly and personable.

Szalik
18-04-2012, 15:22
Not at all. Use whatever Codex YOU find fitting. The list looks good, themed, just make your models look like Night Lords.

Cheeslord
18-04-2012, 15:50
I would be annoyed by the capitalisation of WITH on the army list. Its not like I might think you were choosing a captain WITHOUT lightening clasw/bolt pistol.

Other than that, it does not seem a cheesy list (might think differently if I played against it. looks like its designed to put everything in my face on turn 1 and charging me by turn 2.
.

Mark.

Casper Hawser
18-04-2012, 16:36
Like most say sounds good and after reading Soul Hunter they seem to like wearing looted Blood Angel armour so why not loot the dex as well.:D

Nym
18-04-2012, 17:07
A Marine is a Marine is a Marine. As a Xenos player, I really don't care for which codex people use, as long as it's modelled appropriately. If someone bothered you, you could just say that it's a Blood Angel successor chapter. Perfectly legal.

People should get mad at GW for producing over-the-top chapter specific codices, not at you for using them.

Axeman1n
18-04-2012, 20:37
This is the same answer I got when I wanted to play my Catachan army using the DE dex. They are T3, with high weapon skill and poison weapons. I thought it fit my fluff well. I was wrong, and have since understood that, you should just play the army out of the dex they are for. If you need to use a different dex, and the reason is not for keeping the army competitive, then maybe it's fine. Most people change dexs to keep competitive.
I'm not going to refuse to play you. I'll even be nice when we play. I'm just telling you my opinion on codex hopping. In my opinion, people trump armies and lists anyways. If you are cool, and your army is thought out and painted nicely, you can play any list you want. I'll have a good time. In my experience, it doesn't happen this way. People with these odious lists and codex switching also tend to be the same people with unpainted armies. They also tend to be the same people who are annoying as heck to play against as they argue every rule and issue during the game.
Just be cool. Don't worry about getting beat if you like your army, just play.

KingDeath
18-04-2012, 21:31
This is the same answer I got when I wanted to play my Catachan army using the DE dex. They are T3, with high weapon skill and poison weapons. I thought it fit my fluff well. I was wrong, and have since understood that, you should just play the army out of the dex they are for. If you need to use a different dex, and the reason is not for keeping the army competitive, then maybe it's fine. Most people change dexs to keep competitive.
I'm not going to refuse to play you. I'll even be nice when we play. I'm just telling you my opinion on codex hopping. In my opinion, people trump armies and lists anyways. If you are cool, and your army is thought out and painted nicely, you can play any list you want. I'll have a good time. In my experience, it doesn't happen this way. People with these odious lists and codex switching also tend to be the same people with unpainted armies. They also tend to be the same people who are annoying as heck to play against as they argue every rule and issue during the game.
Just be cool. Don't worry about getting beat if you like your army, just play.

Blame GW. The company is too fricking stupid to write balanced books and update them once in a while which forces those people who simply prefer to play competatively or at least not end as doormats against somewhat "harder" lists ( nothing wrong with that ) to change their codex. Since the current chaos book is one of the worst ones around ( except for the deluded "Obliterators/ Lashprinces are still good" crowd ) i can fully understand the op's desire to use a more modern book.

lolplates
18-04-2012, 21:56
Nope. I would just happy to play a game. Winner goes to the fridge, only house I insist on.

althathir
18-04-2012, 22:37
I disagree. I have played a conservative Wolves list for some time and I get comped into oblivion or commented on all the time. So I don't blame him for being cautious.

Yeah but space wolves are the devil online, same for GK. Its actually kinda of burns me, when I got bored with eldar I started SW and at that point I was set in my ways and wasn't online much, so I didn't realize how bad of a perception people have of them. I probably wouldn't have started an army I enjoy immensely that is nowhere near broke as people claim it to be.


I wouldn't be 'annoyed', but I would question why a very similar list couldn't have been made using Codex: Chaos Space Marines (you loose a couple of Claws rules-wise, but they can still be modelled as such).

Lord with Claw
5 Terminators with twin Claws
Dread with two DCCWs, Heavy Flamer
10 Marines with Fist, Melta, Flamer, Rhino
10 Raptors with Power Weapon, Melta, Flamer
Stormeagle
6 Bikes with Power Weapon

142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed.

Well the stormeagle isn't official, and considering he loves the stormraven I think its completely reasonable. The rules the BA have make a bit of sense for NLs cause they were a legion with bit of control issues so red thrist makes sense. Furthermore he isn't running sang guard, or priests or mephie the only thing that would be a bit out of place is a fast rhino and thats not a big deal at all. Plus I would honestly be a lot more annoyed with a lot of models that were modelled with claws but don't have them, then a someone using a book that fits their ideal of a cool army thats not a reposted net list instead of another dex that they have to make concessions with.


This is the same answer I got when I wanted to play my Catachan army using the DE dex. They are T3, with high weapon skill and poison weapons. I thought it fit my fluff well. I was wrong, and have since understood that, you should just play the army out of the dex they are for. If you need to use a different dex, and the reason is not for keeping the army competitive, then maybe it's fine. Most people change dexs to keep competitive.
I'm not going to refuse to play you. I'll even be nice when we play. I'm just telling you my opinion on codex hopping. In my opinion, people trump armies and lists anyways. If you are cool, and your army is thought out and painted nicely, you can play any list you want. I'll have a good time. In my experience, it doesn't happen this way. People with these odious lists and codex switching also tend to be the same people with unpainted armies. They also tend to be the same people who are annoying as heck to play against as they argue every rule and issue during the game.
Just be cool. Don't worry about getting beat if you like your army, just play.

There is a big difference between using the BA book for night lords, and using the DE book for Catachans. DE have a different stat line, fleet, and power through pain. Where as pre-heresy Night lords really don't have a codex (hell Guilliman hadn't wrote the codex Astartes yet), so there is a bit more freedom there. Honestly I would have played againist your Dark Catachans ;), but I could see TO's having an issue and I don't think they would blink an Eye at BA for NLs.

The 617th
18-04-2012, 23:02
10 Assault Marines WITH Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, and a Rhino


I'm not exactly in touch with the Blood Angels Codex, but by assault marines do you mean with jump packs or just tactical squad marines you'd use for an assault? Because if you're using the jet-pack ones, why the rhino? I'm assuming I'm misintepreting it either way, but which is it?

althathir
18-04-2012, 23:07
Blood Angel assault marines can trade their jump packs for a transport (they get a 35 point discount IIRC in exchange for them).

Stonerhino
19-04-2012, 10:11
Yeah but space wolves are the devil online, same for GK. Its actually kinda of burns me, when I got bored with eldar I started SW and at that point I was set in my ways and wasn't online much, so I didn't realize how bad of a perception people have of them. I probably wouldn't have started an army I enjoy immensely that is nowhere near broke as people claim it to be. Believe it or not. But it's not as bad now as the perception of them was in 2nd ed.


Where as pre-heresy Night lords really don't have a codex (hell Guilliman hadn't wrote the codex Astartes yet), so there is a bit more freedom there.Which is exactly why it's bad form to use a "Codex Chapter" to represent his pre-codex writing army. Especially when you can make the same army using Codex Chaos Marines, that he should be using anyways.

The 617th
19-04-2012, 12:37
Blood Angel assault marines can trade their jump packs for a transport (they get a 35 point discount IIRC in exchange for them).

Ah, I see. Cheers for that!

AndrewGPaul
19-04-2012, 12:56
Believe it or not. But it's not as bad now as the perception of them was in 2nd ed.

Which is exactly why it's bad form to use a "Codex Chapter" to represent his pre-codex writing army. Especially when you can make the same army using Codex Chaos Marines, that he should be using anyways.

Surely Codex: Chaos Space Marines is an even worse fit for a pre-Heresy legion than Codex: Blood Angels?

The Marshel
19-04-2012, 14:59
i think i'd be slightly annoyed by it, ya know, the usual cross codex junk

BUT

Not annoyed enough to really care. I don't think it's something really worth getting worked up over. it'd be nice if people stuck to their appropriate codex, but it'd also be nice if each codex was appropriately capable and interesting too. Either way, i'd rather have a game then an argument and this really isnt an issue worth arguing over

Lord Damocles
19-04-2012, 15:15
Well the stormeagle isn't official, and considering he loves the stormraven I think its completely reasonable.
Anyone who has issues with the Stormeagle (beyond 'do Marines need that thing? Really?') is likely to have as much - if not more - of a problem with an entire counts-as army I would have thought...

Austinitor
19-04-2012, 15:48
The problem with the suggestion to use the C:SM book and a Stormeagle is all of the anti-Forge World sentiment amongst tournament types (who predominantly select the most spammy, broken Codices with abusive lists, e.g. 9 Hydras in a "Leafblower" or Paladin spam and 6 PsyRiflemen Dreadnaughts) and don't want their boat rocked by armies they don't anticipate being competitive. Forge World and Imperial Army has a nasty way of screwing up their WAAC list composition by introducing units they did not account for facing.

Daemonia
19-04-2012, 16:03
Well, seeing as how I don't think the idea is ridiculous then I'd play against it quite happily. I'd put it in the box with "Worldeaters playing as Death Company army", "converted humans in place of Tau in a Tau army" or long ago simply Fantasy Beastmen as a 'Lost and the Damned' list. People do these things occasionally and it doesn't strike me as too unreasonable even if I do much prefer people to play with the proper army list and proper models. End of the day if it's not too stupid "hey guys I'm gonna play these Orks with Necron rules!" or 'gamey' "oh look at this new Grey Knights list...all my Ultramarines/Blood Angels/Alpha Legion/Wood Elf proxies are now Grey Knights!" I really don't mind. Just tell me what things represent before the game and it's all good.

In OP's case I'm perfectly fine with it and don't see how anyone could really overreact unless they're the kind of person that screams 'UNFAIR!' when you field, say, a 'blood bubble' army where you have Sanguinary Priests spaced out in a jump army so that all of the models are completely covered by it and just ride a couple of rhinos out in front to use as LoS blockers. That's the kind of Blood Angel nonsense you see most people complaining about and if they started up a huff about it, just point out that firstly you could just be playing REAL Blood Angels and they'd have to face that anyway...so would they just refuse to play Blood Angels anyway? Or just that you simply do not field that kind of silliness in your army so what is he scared of? If his argument is purely intellectual and understandable that he only wants to play against armies using 'normal' models for actual codices (and I'm inclined to agree with them 9/10), it shouldn't stop him having a fun and pleasant game so long as you make quite clear what things are at the start (Marines as Marines? How hard to follow is that :P), people will surely see that that's what matters most. If they are being stubborn then so be it, they are entitled to not play you so just play someone more acceptant and in the case of a tournament or other event, just ask the organiser if it's okay before you start. That's the only burr I can think of sticking into this.

althathir
19-04-2012, 20:15
Believe it or not. But it's not as bad now as the perception of them was in 2nd ed.

Which is exactly why it's bad form to use a "Codex Chapter" to represent his pre-codex writing army. Especially when you can make the same army using Codex Chaos Marines, that he should be using anyways.

Actually I can, mainly because I've heard wolves, chaos, Nids, and eldar were all being broken in 2nd (granted Eldar were considered the worst from what i've been told). So its not too big of a shock, and honestly its much worse online then it is in person. I just didn't want to go through it again cause when I first started people were really wary of me when they found out i played eldar it was fine as soon we played and they realized I wasn't playing cheese, but I play the game to have fun not to prove I'm not a jerk because I like a certain fraction.

As for as the chaos book for pre-heresy NLs, that book is designed for warbands because for the most part the legions are broken up in the modern fluff so they don't really try to give you mono-legion builds. It would be one thing if he was playing a BA jumper list with dante, sang guard, and priests but what he is running would make sense as a night lord force.


Anyone who has issues with the Stormeagle (beyond 'do Marines need that thing? Really?') is likely to have as much - if not more - of a problem with an entire counts-as army I would have thought...

I doubt it, lots of older players fear forge world models because of how broke some have been in the past. Where as this count-as army would be wysiwyg (big deal), and besides the fast rhino, fluff friendly.


The problem with the suggestion to use the C:SM book and a Stormeagle is all of the anti-Forge World sentiment amongst tournament types (who predominantly select the most spammy, broken Codices with abusive lists, e.g. 9 Hydras in a "Leafblower" or Paladin spam and 6 PsyRiflemen Dreadnaughts) and don't want their boat rocked by armies they don't anticipate being competitive. Forge World and Imperial Army has a nasty way of screwing up their WAAC list composition by introducing units they did not account for facing.

Not being able to anticipate fw stuff is a valid point, but its not the only reason.
1) TO aren't as comfortable with FW because in most cases their store doesn't carry the product
2) Keeping track of the rules is already hard enough, and adding several volumes doesn't make it any easier
3) The different fractions aren't represented any where near evenly

Sheena Easton
20-04-2012, 09:59
Initially, no. I'd find it slightly unimaginative and assume you were purely doing it cos you get some kind of bonus from the BA Codex that you don't get from the CSM Codex (which you do in the Stormraven and extra Lightening Claws...) but since it initially appears to be quite fluffy then I'd be fine

Then I'd get to the bottom, see this


EDIT: THIS IS PRE HERESY


Go back and read this:


Blood Angels codex

and this


Stormraven Gunship

and this


Assault Cannon


and then I'd be annoyed at the lack of background knowledge and the attempt at using another codex to get an advantage using the same old tired pre Heresy justification when the list uses post Heresy gear from a post Heresy list, know you are using an alternative codex to gain an advantage you cant get from your own codex, and I'd be annoyed at the plethora of Marine books around which encourage this kind of list-jumping for advantage.

LegioDestructor
20-04-2012, 13:01
I doubt it, lots of older players fear forge world models because of how broke some have been in the past. Where as this count-as army would be wysiwyg (big deal), and besides the fast rhino, fluff friendly.Which older players were those? What "broken" units, exactly? The fact that they're seen by so many people as psuedo-official is the very reason they don't get played enough, which makes people more reluctant to use them.

To directly quote FW themselves:

As with all of our models these should be considered "official", but owing to the fact that they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start.So, there you go: Official. The fact that they suggest you let your opponent know is a courtesy. I'd rather be surprised by a Bombard or a Fusion Blaster Hammerhead than put up with garbage min-maxed lists out of a well-known Codex.

Also, FW models are WYSIWYG (which is a big deal considering it's the core rule of the game) and "fluff-friendly" too. If anything they're still catching up with models that have existed for decades. For example, the Gorgon has always been a superheavy open-topped infantry transport with mortar-type weapons, and it's had a model for Epic since before the Tau were even conceived. What kind of "broken" or "unfamiliar" unit is that?

...all of the anti-Forge World sentiment amongst tournament types (who predominantly select the most spammy, broken Codices with abusive lists) and don't want their boat rocked by armies they don't anticipate being competitive. Forge World and Imperial Army has a nasty way of screwing up their WAAC list composition by introducing units they did not account for facing.
Hmm, so stunning models that befit their army, usually have interesting modeling options, almost always have a background story explaining the unit's history, and makes hyper-competative WAACers throw a tantrum? Those are perfect reasons to use FW models.

What exactly is so hard to deal with concerning FW rules? Things like the Tyranid Malanthrope or IG Valdor Tank Hunter are just slightly bigger, slightly scarier versions of units that we're all accustomed to dealing with. Oh, an MC with crazy combat attacks. Whoa, never thought I'd see that in a Tyranid army! Um, maybe I should shoot it? Or at least not let it stab me with all those talons. Look out! An Imperial tank with a 72" main weapon! We've never seen such a thing before! I guess we should... not let it shoot us? Maybe... use cover, or assault it? It isn't rocket science. It's called tactics. If we really wanted simplistic, predictable rules and models we all instantly recognize, we'd all be playing Space Marines. Wait a minute...


Not being able to anticipate fw stuff is a valid point, but its not the only reason.
1) TO aren't as comfortable with FW because in most cases their store doesn't carry the product
2) Keeping track of the rules is already hard enough, and adding several volumes doesn't make it any easier
3) The different fractions aren't represented any where near evenly
1. What kind of an excuse is that? Playtest using a proxy or buy the FW model and have a few games... it's how everyone else has to get used to the models and their rules.
2. They don't seem to have that mentality about Chapter-specific rules fo, now do they? How hard is it to remember that my Leman Russ Conqueror has a Blast Krak Missile instead of a Battlecannon, if I'm expected to remember three or four pages of army-specific wargear and psychic powers for your Grey Knights? Isn't that why we bring our rulebooks to games?
3. Again, that doesn't seem to bother them if it's the Astartes. And they're represented evenly enough. IA1: Guard. IA2: Marines. IA3: Tau. IA4: Tyranids. IA5: Guard. IA6: Chaos. IA7: Renegades/Daemons. IA8: Orks. IA9: Marines. IA10: Marines. IA11: Eldar. OK so there's not exactly a ton of DE or Necron stuff, but at least FW includes them. They started with a shedload of Imperial stuff because most of it was ported over from Epic.

Not being able to anticipate FW units is no excuse either. It's no more of a surprise than, say, bringing your army to play vs Biel Tan Eldar and expecting to face a lot of assault Aspect squads, only to find it's a shooty list using Wraithguard, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms. You shouldn't expect people to say "oh hey I'm using lots of infantry models, make sure you bring some Griffon Mortars!" If your list is balanced, you shouldn't have a problem unless your opponent brings an equally unbalanced list, and that's not down to the Codex, playtesters, or FW. That's down to you or your opponent.

Not only that, they release quite a lot of their experimental rules FOR FREE ONLINE. Sure they might change a bit before they're published, but how do you not anticipate that?

Menthak
20-04-2012, 14:06
Nope :) simply because you're not being a D*ck about blood angels rules.

Soldado
20-04-2012, 14:11
@Sheena Easton,

Your point about the SR and AC is not valid, because the SR is dated pre Heresy and Assault Cannons are pre Heresy, but only for vehicles (including dreads). Your complaint would be valid if he's going to field termies with AC, but he's don't.

Sqallum
20-04-2012, 14:54
Initially, no. I'd find it slightly unimaginative and assume you were purely doing it cos you get some kind of bonus from the BA Codex that you don't get from the CSM Codex (which you do in the Stormraven and extra Lightening Claws...) but since it initially appears to be quite fluffy then I'd be fine

Then I'd get to the bottom, see this




Go back and read this:



and this



and this




and then I'd be annoyed at the lack of background knowledge and the attempt at using another codex to get an advantage using the same old tired pre Heresy justification when the list uses post Heresy gear from a post Heresy list, know you are using an alternative codex to gain an advantage you cant get from your own codex, and I'd be annoyed at the plethora of Marine books around which encourage this kind of list-jumping for advantage.

Thanks. Damn, I forgot that the assault cannon is after the heresy!!!! :( I would have used the Stormeagle since it is pre-heresy but that is not possible with BA :(
Thanks,
Sqallum

Stonerhino
21-04-2012, 04:58
As for as the chaos book for pre-heresy NLs, that book is designed for warbands because for the most part the legions are broken up in the modern fluff so they don't really try to give you mono-legion builds. It would be one thing if he was playing a BA jumper list with dante, sang guard, and priests but what he is running would make sense as a night lord force.The fact that you can make almost the identical army using Codex Chaos Space Marines:

Lord with Claw
5 Terminators with twin Claws
Dread with two DCCWs, Heavy Flamer
10 Marines with Fist, Melta, Flamer, Rhino
10 Raptors with Power Weapon, Melta, Flamer
Stormeagle
6 Bikes with Power Weapon

142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed. Besides I'm sure if they do put out a way for to play "Night Lords" it's not going to be as a BA successer chapter. But instead be included in the newest Chaos Marine book.

Lord Damocles
21-04-2012, 08:00
To go one further; Codex: Space Marines:

Captain, Claw
5 Terminators, Claws
Ironclad, Heavy Flamer
10 Tacticals, Melta, Fist, Rhino
10 Assaults, 2 Flamers, Claw
Stormeagle
6 Bikes, Power weapon

175 points for second Troops choice/Sternguard replacement and more toys.

No fast Rhino or random Red Thirst rolls. No [post-]Heresy equipment, more Claws.

Sqallum
21-04-2012, 09:35
To go one further; Codex: Space Marines:

Captain, Claw
5 Terminators, Claws
Ironclad, Heavy Flamer
10 Tacticals, Melta, Fist, Rhino
10 Assaults, 2 Flamers, Claw
Stormeagle
6 Bikes, Power weapon

175 points for second Troops choice/Sternguard replacement and more toys.

No fast Rhino or random Red Thirst rolls. No [post-]Heresy equipment, more Claws.

Thanks :D I might use that list instead, actually ;)
Sqallum

LonelyPath
21-04-2012, 11:44
The only gripe I'd have with that list is that since it's pre-heresy, they would not have had assault cannons of stormravens since they hadn't been invented at that time ;)

althathir
21-04-2012, 19:22
Which older players were those? What "broken" units, exactly? The fact that they're seen by so many people as psuedo-official is the very reason they don't get played enough, which makes people more reluctant to use them.

A bunch of random people you don't know, but seriously read the fw threads in the rumour section you'll see enough the sky falling style threads

To directly quote FW themselves:
So, there you go: Official. The fact that they suggest you let your opponent know is a courtesy. I'd rather be surprised by a Bombard or a Fusion Blaster Hammerhead than put up with garbage min-maxed lists out of a well-known Codex.

Ok so where is the quote from GW, and yes I know who owns FW but its an important distinction. I like forge world btw, but honestly GW could clear this up in a heartbeat and they don't (mainly cause I don't think the store fronts would like it (i'll get to that later)

Also, FW models are WYSIWYG (which is a big deal considering it's the core rule of the game) and "fluff-friendly" too. If anything they're still catching up with models that have existed for decades. For example, the Gorgon has always been a superheavy open-topped infantry transport with mortar-type weapons, and it's had a model for Epic since before the Tau were even conceived. What kind of "broken" or "unfamiliar" unit is that?

I know forgeworld is WYSIWYG, granted I have no ideal of what some the weapons do, regardless I meant his list would be WYSIWYG. I've played 40k for over 10 years and this is the first I've heard of a Gorgon so its unfamiliar and it may be broken (doesn't matter much since its a super heavy), as far as fluff friendly again i'm posting about his list not forge world

... snip (i agree with you here)...

1. What kind of an excuse is that? Playtest using a proxy or buy the FW model and have a few games... it's how everyone else has to get used to the models and their rules.

Most tournies I have been in have been in stores. I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter. Most stores aren't gonna be excited about a bunch of models that people order online cause alot of them can't compete with online venders when it comes to their core range. Thats the problem.

2. They don't seem to have that mentality about Chapter-specific rules fo, now do they? How hard is it to remember that my Leman Russ Conqueror has a Blast Krak Missile instead of a Battlecannon, if I'm expected to remember three or four pages of army-specific wargear and psychic powers for your Grey Knights? Isn't that why we bring our rulebooks to games?

Those books and models are in their stores, and marines make it easier for them, because they share quite a bit of the range, so they get alot out of the shelfspace, furthermore because of the different strengths of the chapters more models tend to be considered useful so they're not sitting on swooping hawks for an edition

3. Again, that doesn't seem to bother them if it's the Astartes. And they're represented evenly enough. IA1: Guard. IA2: Marines. IA3: Tau. IA4: Tyranids. IA5: Guard. IA6: Chaos. IA7: Renegades/Daemons. IA8: Orks. IA9: Marines. IA10: Marines. IA11: Eldar. OK so there's not exactly a ton of DE or Necron stuff, but at least FW includes them. They started with a shedload of Imperial stuff because most of it was ported over from Epic.

Were looking at this from different perspectives, your saying most fractions are covered, i'm saying that imperial fractions get quite a few additional units. Where as in the core game most books tend to have similiar numbers of units in them. This is actually my only problem with FW in tournies, and its not much of one, I would gladly play in a tournie that has FW, but without knowing someones situation I'm not gonna recommend FW either

Not being able to anticipate FW units is no excuse either. It's no more of a surprise than, say, bringing your army to play vs Biel Tan Eldar and expecting to face a lot of assault Aspect squads, only to find it's a shooty list using Wraithguard, Dark Reapers, and Fire Prisms. You shouldn't expect people to say "oh hey I'm using lots of infantry models, make sure you bring some Griffon Mortars!" If your list is balanced, you shouldn't have a problem unless your opponent brings an equally unbalanced list, and that's not down to the Codex, playtesters, or FW. That's down to you or your opponent.

Not only that, they release quite a lot of their experimental rules FOR FREE ONLINE. Sure they might change a bit before they're published, but how do you not anticipate that?
Some players don't even know what forgeworld is, people feel blindsided by stuff like this, so TO's tend to try and reduce headaches


Responses above, tl:dr I like forge world stuff but as long as some stores won't allow it, im not gonna suggest people buy it.


Thanks :D I might use that list instead, actually ;)
Sqallum

Good luck with whatever army decide, don't get too caught up in what other people think though at the end of the day your the one buying, assembling, and painting the army.

Soldado
22-04-2012, 10:55
The only gripe I'd have with that list is that since it's pre-heresy, they would not have had assault cannons of stormravens since they hadn't been invented at that time ;)

Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of pre Heresy vehicles/dreads with AC (need to check collected visions and the card game, both canon). Stormravens and Stormeagles are indeed pre Heresy.

Importman
22-04-2012, 12:18
Why would anyone be annoyed playing against this list? Doesn't look like an uber BA list by a long shot.
In a different note I don't like playing against guys who never get around to painting their stuff up besides a spray of under coat. I don't mind if they use these models just to try things out in a few games but not if they are permanent feature of their army and they don't even bother to paint them up half decent.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

LegioDestructor
22-04-2012, 12:38
but seriously read the fw threads in the rumour sectionThe rumour section is a good heads up on what is coming out next, but pretty terrible for seeing how those units actually perform in a game. They aren't released yet, and the rules are not always finished. People freaking out about FW is the same to me as people freaking out every time a new Codex is released. It's the unknown. It's change. Some people don't know how to deal with it.

Most tournies I have been in have been in stores. I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter.Very true, and I see your point. Until...

Most stores aren't gonna be excited about a bunch of models that people order online cause alot of them can't compete with online venders when it comes to their core range. Thats the problem. It's one thing to not carry an item in stock, it's another to "never get excited" about it. This is a business but it's also a hobby that we love. I doubt people got into running a game store for the profits. Forge World went from producing a couple of Baneblades to now where they have models that can be used in any army, and often even be used as "Codex" units. Players around the world get excited about FW models we may never afford, touch, or even see in person. For it to be ignored is, IMO, a mistake. Surely not everyone thinks this way, and I'm not trying to change anybody's mind. Just how I feel about it.

And thanks to FW releasing experimental rules nearly as often as they release a model, I know what a Heavy Conversion Beamer does. But what is a Splinter Pod? Blood Talons? Oath of War? I guess it's all a matter of perspectives.

I like forge world stuff but as long as some stores won't allow it, im not gonna suggest people buy it.A fair conclusion. I was being a bit of a devil's advocate but I've always been a fan of home-games and house rules over competative tournaments so naturally FW is right up my alley.

RE: OP, this has always been my conundrum with Pre-Heresy armies. It has always been a heated matter of contention on when, specifically, certain weapons / vehicles / munitions were invented, used by specialized forces, or issued to entire armies. Some are mentioned with a specific date of their first recorded usage, but others are hazy because the overall timeline is not that detailed. Like others have said, this will be your army and it depends on what you want to do with it, and how comfortable your opponents are with "counts-as" interpretations. This is after all, in it's original version at least, just a Blood Angels army painted as Night Lords. Unless there is a specific mention in the BA Codex (haven't seen it) that says they must be painted red or be a BA successor to use the rules, there should be no argument.

If people are really going to gripe and whine about Pre-Heresy Assault Cannons when you start placing units, they are the kind of people who should stick to arguing on the internet and leave the gaming to people who want to have a good time shooting and stabbing each other with awesome plastic models.

althathir
22-04-2012, 23:16
@LegioDestructor
1) I agree about the rumour section, but not everyone sees it that way. I actually think the internet leads to a whole lot of "herd" think in our hobby because it is so time consuming that we aren't playtesting every thing for ourselves, regardless a TO is gonna have to deal with some of those people.

2) I think some stores view FW as a gateway towards online retailers (its not so much the fw stuff, as their customers realizing they can the GW stuff at some nice discounts). The one I go to now that isn't the case at all, they'll even help organize orders to split up shipping but wargaming isn't the primary source of income there, and the owner loves forgeworld. That said I could see some stores having problems with it mainly because since of i've been gaming off the top of my head I can 3 stores that went under.

3) As far as your point to the OP, there really aren't rules as far as painting your models certain colors that i'm aware of.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 03:49
The existance of the CSM version makes the BA list cheesy/gamey. If you want to play CSM, use thier codex. This is my opinion. I'm not in the majority, but it is one opinion to take into consideration.


This is the same answer I got when I wanted to play my Catachan army using the DE dex. They are T3, with high weapon skill and poison weapons. I thought it fit my fluff well. I was wrong, and have since understood that, you should just play the army out of the dex they are for. If you need to use a different dex, and the reason is not for keeping the army competitive, then maybe it's fine. Most people change dexs to keep competitive.
I'm not going to refuse to play you. I'll even be nice when we play. I'm just telling you my opinion on codex hopping. In my opinion, people trump armies and lists anyways. If you are cool, and your army is thought out and painted nicely, you can play any list you want. I'll have a good time. In my experience, it doesn't happen this way. People with these odious lists and codex switching also tend to be the same people with unpainted armies. They also tend to be the same people who are annoying as heck to play against as they argue every rule and issue during the game.
Just be cool. Don't worry about getting beat if you like your army, just play.

There's a difference, in my view, with your example and his case.

IG has a good book, and a more or less recently updated one at that. Catachans do not equate to Eldar in any form. There is no case of Catachans using poison shooting weapons that I'm aware of, thus it does seem to smack of using a book for it's rules. It may not have been your intention, but it may have the smell to it to your opponents.

In the OP's case, basically a marine is marine is a marine. You can interchange the models between codexes and most people won't even notice for the most part, because most of the equipment matches up. In the OP's case, the BA actually does represent NL VERY well. NL never use daemons of any sort, and with relatively very few exceptions, follow the Undivided path of Chaos. They also tend to favor using assault units, which the Chaos codex does not have in the Troops slot. Even the Storm Raven isn't out of place now, considering the recent release of the Storm Eagle, which Chaos does have access to. The OP shouldn't have to be forced to use what is essentially a crap codex in desperate need of rewriting, which is putting it gently concerning the current Chaos codex and it's godawful FAQs, when a perfectly good and very FLUFFY substitute exists.


I have never been in a store that sells Forgeworld models over the counter.

I have. Our Bunker used to keep them in stock a few years ago, until it became too much of a problem to keep track of the FW stock.

Stonerhino
23-04-2012, 04:10
The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 04:28
The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

How is it "manipulating "fluff? It is canon that the NL's don't use Daemons, it is CANON that they use assault troops, it is now CANON that they can use Storm Eagles, it is even CANON that they have a weird preference for using certain weapons like Lightning claws. Yes there will be minor variances in some issues, but it's not like the Chaos codex doesn't have a lot of MAJOR ones with the Legions such as IW, AL, and NL.

Would you say that Alpha Legion don't match up fluff wise with a Raven Guard flavored list? I wouldn't, not based on what I've read on them.

Would you say that Iron Warriors don't match up fluff wise with the FW SM Siege List? I wouldn't, not based on what has been written about them.

How are these things "manipulating" fluff, if they match up with what has been written about the army??

althathir
23-04-2012, 05:06
The problem is that you can tweek the fluff to make any army you want use another codex.

Especially when you have other armies that represent the army just as well as the listed army. So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords. Maybe you should let GW know so they can make an errata listing NLs as a BA successor.

I will give the OP something for saying he will probably use codex SM. It means a lot more then "I want to use this codex" and manipulating the fluff to justify it.

To a degree sure, (it would be awful hard to justify a guard army using the C:SM), but for the most part I just don't see the problem in this case. The current chaos fluff really doesn't support making mono-legion armies and thats what their codex is based on. The OP is trying to make a Pre-Hersey Night lords army, it wouldn't be well represented using a codex that designed to make a warband. His first choice was BA because he liked storm ravens (which if the designs were found on a STC they would be pre-heresy right? Pretty sure that was when they stopped being made), to me thats a legitimate reason to start a force. He changed his mind when the storm eagle was pointed out to him which is just as valid. Either way people shouldn't be annoyed because its not some broken power list its someone using the codex that lets them make the force they want, in a WYSIWG manner. I just don't understand why people are up in arms about it.

Hendarion
23-04-2012, 05:23
People should get mad at GW for producing over-the-top chapter specific codices, not at you for using them.
Hmm... let me be a bit picky here. So if a human shoots a human, we should blame the manufacturers of guns and not the guy who fired it? :rolleyes:

Stonerhino
23-04-2012, 05:49
Captain WITH Lightning Claw, Bolt Pistol

5 Terminators WITH Lightning Claws

Furiso Dreadnought WITH Blood Talons, Meltagun and Flamer

10 Assault Marines WITH Power Fist, Meltagun, Flamer, and a Rhino

10 Assault Marines WITH Lightning Claw, Flamer, and Meltagun

Stormraven Gunship WITH Assault Cannon, and Heavy Bolters

7 Sternguard WITH Power Fist, Plasma Gun and a Meltagun

6 Bikes WITH Lightning Claw

Looks a lot like:

Lord with Claw
5 Terminators with twin Claws
Dread with two DCCWs, Heavy Flamer
10 Marines with Fist, Melta, Flamer, Rhino
10 Raptors with Power Weapon, Melta, Flamer
Stormeagle
6 Bikes with Power Weapon

142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed.There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Dreadlordpaul
23-04-2012, 06:08
No I wouldnt have a problem if im honest

Aun Tier
23-04-2012, 06:43
I honestly cannot see a single legitimate reason as to why someone would not allow you to play that list. If someone questions it, they're basically saying ''I don't like playing against BA, so I'm going to whine and try making you play with a horribly underpowered army so that I can win more easily''. Why not just view it as "I play with a BA codex, and my backstory is that they are a Deathguard Chaos Warband". To complain because you're using one codex rather than another because of your fluff is just absurd. It's like getting annoyed at someone for playing a Deep-Striking Ultramarines force rather than BA! Alternatively, you could always just not mention your Backstory.
If the issue is, however, that you're using Deathguard models, then I can see why they would be annoyed, but still, it's not like you're gaining an advantage. You're just as able to go down and buy a BA force as CSM, so whats the problem?
To me it's the same messed up principle that people use when they winge about Competetive lists in friendly environments. What are you going to do, use a list that sucks just because they don't like losing? But maybe that last point is because I'm a Tau player, and we don't really have competetive lists. :/

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 06:55
Double post

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 07:00
Looks a lot like:
There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Umm, no it doesn't look anything like it. Since when did Raptors become troops? Your list is illegal to start with, compared to the OP's, as it does not have 2 troops.

Second, with the exception of the dread carrying ability of the storm raven and smaller carrying capacity, there's damn little difference between a storm raven and a storm eagle.

Also, I was under the impression that by now, everyone understood that Chaos dreads were worthless and defilers aren't much better. I can not blame the OP for wanting to find a better option game wise.

The op wants a flavorful list that suits his army, no more. The current godawful cookie cutter Chaos 'dex doesn't even pretend to offer that for anything beyond "throw in the kitchen sink" Black Legion. I DARE you to make a flavorful, fluffy IW or even an AL list with the current Chaos 'dex. You simply can NOT do it.

So yes, I CAN make a very legitimate argument for using a different codex to represent NL, as well as a few other Legions.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

qsd
23-04-2012, 07:34
You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Codex CSM is designed for the chaos and renegade warbands. It doesn't exactly represent pre-heresy Night Lords any better than the BA rules do just because it happens to mention traitor Night Lords.

The timeline matters because before turning to Chaos, Death Guard weren't decaying, the Emperor's Children weren't maniacs with sonic weapons, the Thousand Sons didn't have Rubric Marines, and with the possible exception of the World Eaters, nobody had insane Dreadnoughts as a norm.

Stonerhino
23-04-2012, 10:14
IW:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher
Marines 10+missile launcher
FA:
none
HS:
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers


AL:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 6+rhino
FA:
None
HS:
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

By using a combination of Chosen, Terminators, Marines, Rapters, Bikes, Havocs and vehicles you can represent any of the Legions pre-heresy, even loyalist Legions. When Tempus Fugitives did their pre/during heresy rules. The army lists entries where based off of codex CSM. Special rules do not make it a fluffy army. The army list and play style do.

Disclaimer:
I was not making competative armies, just lists focusing on what each Legion's charater would look like on the battlefield. And one foot and one mech.

Soldado
23-04-2012, 11:23
Looks a lot like:
There are no mark, deamons or super Chaosy stuff. So when the codex that the army actually comes from can make the same list. Why use another codex??? Unless you want to gain some table top advantage.

So like I said "So what fast Rhinos, Blood talons and a flying vehicle transport for said dreadnought now somehow represent Night Lords". So unless you agree that about that point. You really have no argument about how codex BA represents NL better then Codex CSM.

Obviously he wants to gain some advantage. The chaos dex is an uber-crap piece of ************ unplayable unles your're a freak and don't mind to lose (like me) or you do double lash, plaguerines, blitz list. A bland, plain boring, old screwed codex. What's the problem to like to win sometimes? Although I not use the BA dex, I fail to see how people can get annoyed about that.

If I played that list and someone complaint about, then I change my mind and say "ok, now that's a BA successor that just happens to like spikes". End of the problem. I don't wasn't mean to be harsh on you, but on the codex. No offence please.

LonelyPath
23-04-2012, 11:57
Actually, I'm pretty sure I've seen pictures of pre Heresy vehicles/dreads with AC (need to check collected visions and the card game, both canon). Stormravens and Stormeagles are indeed pre Heresy.

The AC came later, otherwise we'd have had AC appear in the Heresy novels and they haven't, they would also have been referenced in any of the 4 existing editions of Codex: Chaos Marines, but again nothing there or in any other fluff I have ever read and can remember. Back then the terminators used autocannons. The SR first appeared in the hands of the Grey Knights, but not until fairly recently (in 40k terms of timeline). Storm Eagles are pre-Heresy and I agree with that, however the Stormraven is not.

It also worth pointing out that the Furioso Dreadnought also came years after the Heresy. Though that may have changed since their original inclusion in the game.

For references please check Lexicanum though, always a good place when in doubt of memory (and I often doubt mine so check it often, lol). They don't confirm of deny the Furioso claim, but they do prove my arguments for both the AC and SR.

Soldado
23-04-2012, 15:29
@LonelyPath,

The history of the Stormraven is pretty vague as to when it first saw service. Indeed could be, say, M36. Buf as far I'm aware, the STC's are rarely developed now in the 41st millenium. Most of them, with notabe exceptions like the Anihilator or some LR were build in the Age of Technology, that is, between M15 and M25. There are not evidence that the SR STC is pre Heresy, but there are not proof in the other way, besides is more likely to be pre Heresy until GW says otherwise.

About the Assault Cannon, it is, pre Heresy. Checked Collected Visions, and found a (funnily enough for me, because is my preferred legion) World Eaters Land Speeder with assault cannon (page 26 "Wroath Land Speeder squad"); then in page 103 there is a picture of a Long Fang squad with three marines, not terminators, marines carrying each assault cannons. Page 176: First pic, "Leonatus dreadnought" of the Blood Angels, carrying an assault cannon. Page 213 admech with assault cannon-ish weapon (blurry b/w pic tonned down in sepia color). Page 228 "Lorg Dreadnought" WE, w/ assault cannon. Page 238 "Ymir dreadnought" SW, w/ assault cannon. Page 252 "Mahrke Speeder Squad" WE Land speeder w/assault cannon. Page 270 "Khaddark despoiler squad" Sons of Horus, up to three space marines w/ assault cannon, an so on. Very pre Heresy to me.

I don't trust Lexicanum, it's pretty meh to me.

About the furioso, it's obvious that the point of using it is to represent sane close combat dread, being "clawy" and scary as hell.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 16:05
IW:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher
Marines 10+missile launcher
FA:
none
HS:
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers
Havocs 7+4 missile launchers

Unfortunately, you missed the mark. Where are the Siege engines IW is famous for using? Where is the chaff slave units IW uses as initial waves of assault on a bastion? You didn't even include Oblits, which are an iconic IW specific unit, even though you were pulling units from the Chaos codex.



AL:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Chosen 7+3Xmeltagun+rhino
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 10+missile launcher+rhino
Marines 6+rhino
FA:
None
HS:
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred
Dakka Pred

Again you missed the mark. Where are infiltrating Troops choices? Where are the cultists? And I have to wonder why you included Armor in an infiltrating army's list.


Special rules do not make it a fluffy army. The army list and play style do.

You're only partially correct. Both are necessary to truly represent a army according to canon.

It's not a Salamanders army UNTIL you add Vulkan. ONLY THEN does it become a Salamander army, because Vulkan brings the necessary rules to make it fluffy. Otherwise, it's just generic marines painted Green.


Disclaimer:
I was not making competative armies, just lists focusing on what each Legion's charater would look like on the battlefield.

And you missed the mark grossly on both examples.

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 16:07
The AC came later, otherwise we'd have had AC appear in the Heresy novels and they haven't, they would also have been referenced in any of the 4 existing editions of Codex: Chaos Marines, but again nothing there or in any other fluff I have ever read and can remember. Back then the terminators used autocannons. The SR first appeared in the hands of the Grey Knights, but not until fairly recently (in 40k terms of timeline). Storm Eagles are pre-Heresy and I agree with that, however the Stormraven is not.

It also worth pointing out that the Furioso Dreadnought also came years after the Heresy. Though that may have changed since their original inclusion in the game.

For references please check Lexicanum though, always a good place when in doubt of memory (and I often doubt mine so check it often, lol). They don't confirm of deny the Furioso claim, but they do prove my arguments for both the AC and SR.

In the HH book A Thousand Sons, the AC appears in that book. In fact, other than the codex, I can't think of ANY HH book that actually mentions the Reaper at all.

Russell's teapot
23-04-2012, 16:47
They're your toys.

If people won't play with you because you don't fit into their rigerous definition of fun, then that's their bad, not yours.

Lord Damocles
23-04-2012, 17:07
Your list is illegal to start with, compared to the OP's, as it does not have 2 troops.
Of course, that wasn't mentioned in the C:CSM list at all. Nuh uh...


142pts for Icons and a second Troops choice/replacement for the Sternguard, with room to squeeze some more points out if needed.



Unfortunately, you missed the mark. Where are the Siege engines IW is famous for using? Where is the chaff slave units IW uses as initial waves of assault on a bastion? You didn't even include Oblits, which are an iconic IW specific unit, even though you were pulling units from the Chaos codex.

Again you missed the mark. Where are infiltrating Troops choices? Where are the cultists? And I have to wonder why you included Armor in an infiltrating army's list.
As an interesting exercise, what would you consider to be the 'must include in a Blood Angels army for it to be a Blood Angels army' units? Because I bet it's either possible to make an army which doesn't include them, or find an example in the background of a Blood Angels force which didn't include them.

Would such an army, modelled and painted as Blood Angels, using a list taken from Codex: Blood Angels, therefore not be a Blood Angels army?



I honestly cannot see a single legitimate reason as to why someone would not allow you to play that list. If someone questions it, they're basically saying ''I don't like playing against BA, so I'm going to whine and try making you play with a horribly underpowered army so that I can win more easily''.
Nice strawman :yes:

Stonerhino
23-04-2012, 21:08
It's not a Salamanders army UNTIL you add Vulkan. ONLY THEN does it become a Salamander army, because Vulkan brings the necessary rules to make it fluffy. Otherwise, it's just generic marines painted Green.



And you missed the mark grossly on both examples.Salamanders, are just green Space Marines. The rules changes that Vaulkan adds are there for people who believe that rules make the fluff when it's the other way around. Both examples I gave represent the fluff just fine. It's you who are trying to force feed your own ideas of what the Legions would have looked like. Just because they can't score does not make the Outflanking/infiltraiting chosen the core of the army. It's making an army based on the fluff. Not using the fluff so you can gain an on the table advantage. There is a huge difference.

And I guess by "Where are the siege engines" you mean the 4 squads of Obliterators that nearly all IW armies had in them when there were IW rules.

Rules do not = fluff. Fluff comes from the army list and preferences of the chosen Legion. The special rules are there for people who need an advantage to play the army how the fluff dictates.

althathir
24-04-2012, 02:31
Salamanders, are just green Space Marines. The rules changes that Vaulkan adds are there for people who believe that rules make the fluff when it's the other way around. Both examples I gave represent the fluff just fine. It's you who are trying to force feed your own ideas of what the Legions would have looked like. Just because they can't score does not make the Outflanking/infiltraiting chosen the core of the army. It's making an army based on the fluff. Not using the fluff so you can gain an on the table advantage. There is a huge difference.

And I guess by "Where are the siege engines" you mean the 4 squads of Obliterators that nearly all IW armies had in them when there were IW rules.

Rules do not = fluff. Fluff comes from the army list and preferences of the chosen Legion. The special rules are there for people who need an advantage to play the army how the fluff dictates.

Salamanders are bit touchy on this topic because they did have chapter specific rules in the eye of terror campaign book (think i'm remembering the title right)

Regardless though, if the rules do not = the fluff, then whats the issue with NL using the BA book? Seriously that makes no sense, there are no rules for night lords in current chaos dex.... none, they're basically just mentioned as background thats it. A person could make the argument that they're just a paint scheme. Furthermore the current dex is designed to represent a warband not a legion. So if your gonna make an army that based on a legion why not use a book that uses the preferences of the chosen legion? Night lords have been closely tied to raptors, assault marines as troops is logical, red thrist makes sense because the new recruits were a bit psycho after Curze left nostramo and the planet started to become shady again, as long as you avoid the signature units/items it makes sense.

Stonerhino
24-04-2012, 08:07
As has been demonstraighted. You don't need Codex BA to field the army the OP wants to field. So to do so, is just a way to use fluff as a reason to field an army with an advantageous rule set.

Soldado
24-04-2012, 12:55
Maybe you missed my post Stonerhino, but nothing has been demonstrated. You speak nosense. Chaos dex is plain rubish. I don't like to repeat myself so if you want, feel free to check the response I send to you in the previous post (a page before).

Szalik
24-04-2012, 14:05
And what exactly in this case is wrong here ? OP by no means tries to "take advantage" of the BA book (I mean razorback spam etc.), his list is themed around using lightning claws and agressive assault oriented troops. NL are known to use terror tactics so in my opinion it fits here quite well (fast units, aerial assault etc.). It was pointed out to him that he should rather choose Storm Eagle than Storm Raven - ok. OP found good balance between sticking to NL fluff and having up to date rules with some twist.

This "right", "proper" book that is Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not give him even ONE NL chapter specific unit not to mention that it is old and poorly suited to represent even the most known chaos chapters, compared to older versions of CSM rulebook. It might still be good for representing some heavily mutated or diversed chaos warbands but NL is not one of them.

There are some features of BA book that fit with NL fluff. NL are known to have precognitions about the future, especially those negative. That makes them a bit paranoid (Lexicanum). Red thirst rule represent it quite well ( their visions making them fearless and even more aggresive). ATSKNF in my opinion should be granted to ALL marines no matter chaos, loyal or renegate ( because it is more an effect of marine training and hypnotic suggestion than faith in Emperor).

My general opinion on the subject is that those books are named after specific chapters because it sounds (and sells) better than "Codex: Assault oriented Marines" or "Codex: Individualistic Marines". You pick your chapter name (fluff or DIY), appearance (vanilla, robed, decorated, mutated etc. marines), gamestyle (aggresive, gunline etc.). Codex in my opinion is needed only for the last part. Sure, those books have specific miniature photos, fluff and rules in them, because it happens that some chapters represent described gamestyle really well.

Sticking blindly to one codex just because it was named "chaos", "dark" or even worse calling people names for not doing the same is in my opinion sign of some false eliticism. There is no honour in it, it kills creative approach, an important part of this hobby. In this specific case OP by showing his list proved that he is no band wagon jumper, he simply wants to have cool rules that fit more than less with NL fluff.

AlphariusOmegon20
24-04-2012, 14:32
Salamanders, are just green Space Marines. The rules changes that Vulkan adds are there for people who believe that rules make the fluff when it's the other way around. Both examples I gave represent the fluff just fine. It's you who are trying to force feed your own ideas of what the Legions would have looked like.

No, what that means is I'm using multiple other sources IN ADDITION TO the current codex, rather than ONLY the codex as the basis of my view, such as BL novels, the 3.5 codex, and Index Astartes, to define what makes a Legion or Chapter what it is.


Just because they can't score does not make the Outflanking/infiltrating chosen the core of the army. It's making an army based on the fluff. Not using the fluff so you can gain an on the table advantage. There is a huge difference.

Yes and when it's incorrect, according to the established fluff, it changes nothing.

So you're saying there's no difference between the way a Bad Moon force looks like and the way a Deathskull one looks like? If so, I suggest you follow your own advice and re-read your codex. There is a HUGE difference between what the two look like unit wise....




And I guess by "Where are the siege engines" you mean the 4 squads of Obliterators that nearly all IW armies had in them when there were IW rules.

No, I would be referring to the Basilisks, Medusas, Bombards, and Vindicators IW uses.


Rules do not = fluff. Fluff comes from the army list and preferences of the chosen Legion. The special rules are there for people who need an advantage to play the army how the fluff dictates.

It seems you are also suggesting that Fluff does not = rules either. So why bother naming any of the chapters at all? Why bother naming the Legions? and foremost, Why bother giving them a "role niche" in fluff to begin with.

You name them to distinguish them from one another. Once you've done that, they each have an identity. it's their identity that determines who and what they are, the fluff is just a descriptor of what that Identity IS.


Salamanders are bit touchy on this topic because they did have chapter specific rules in the eye of terror campaign book (think i'm remembering the title right)


LOL, actually it was Codex: Armageddon. It not only had the Sallie list, it also had the first BT list, the Speed Freek List, and the Steel Legion list in it.


Regardless though, if the rules do not = the fluff, then whats the issue with NL using the BA book?

My point exactly.


Seriously that makes no sense, there are no rules for night lords in current chaos dex.... none, they're basically just mentioned as background thats it. A person could make the argument that they're just a paint scheme.


Which is his whole argument in a nutshell.



Furthermore the current dex is designed to represent a warband not a legion. So if your gonna make an army that based on a legion why not use a book that uses the preferences of the chosen legion? Night lords have been closely tied to raptors, assault marines as troops is logical, red thrist makes sense because the new recruits were a bit psycho after Curze left nostramo and the planet started to become shady again, as long as you avoid the signature units/items it makes sense.

Yep, you get the point I was trying to make.

Stonerhino
24-04-2012, 16:56
So you're saying there's no difference between the way a Bad Moon force looks like and the way a Deathskull one looks like? If so, I suggest you follow your own advice and re-read your codex. There is a HUGE difference between what the two look like unit wise....Yes and if you make a fluffy list from either one it will look different. But they both come from the same codex and neither of them have special rules for being monoclan builds.

But to you. "If 1/3 of your army can infiltrate, it does not matter because they can't score. Therefore it's not fluffy". Come on now.

No, I would be referring to the Basilisks, Medusas, Bombards, and Vindicators IW uses.
IW:
HQ:
Chaos Lord+power weapon
Elite:
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Terminators 7+Reaper+2Xpower fist
Troops:
Marines 10+missile launcher
Marines 10+missile launcher
Marines 10+missile launcher
FA:
none
HS:
Vindicator
Vindicator
Vindicator

So by your own admittion, now it's a fluffy IW list, Right???

Your Ork example clearly shows that you understand that a fluffy army is how the army looks on the table; Unit selection and general feel. So why when it becomes about Marines you change your mind and now you have to have special rules to make the army fluffy???

Furthermore the current dex is designed to represent a warband not a legion.This is just ridiculous. "The book is about a Warband not a Legion, so it's ok to use a book about Chapter not a Legion".


This "right", "proper" book that is Codex: Chaos Space Marines does not give him even ONE NL chapter specific unit not to mention that it is old and poorly suited to represent even the most known chaos chapters, compared to older versions of CSM rulebook. It might still be good for representing some heavily mutated or diversed chaos warbands but NL is not one of them.And codex BA does give him "ONE NL chapter specific unit"??? And none of the 3 different Chaos armies posted in this thread have had a single Chaosie marine in them. Just marines that are vertually identical to how they would have been pre-heresy.

@Soldado: I didn't miss your post. I thought you where agreeing with me. Because I don't care if you say "I wanted to use a better codex". I have a problem when people try and say "NO, it's not that I wanted a more powerful codex. It's because this codex *that just happens to be more powerful* better represents my army... You see it's pre-heresy".

Sqallum
24-04-2012, 17:03
Thanks guys. Can I just point out this is PRE-HERESY :D Thanks. Therefore, I cannot use C:CSM..well, you know why.. Edit: BTW, I cannot use the chaos codex because it is pre-heresy. I have said this several times, hence I am not using it. Also, I am quite interested in the Sotormeagle as it IS pre-heresy, so I may re-configure my list to C:SM :D 2nd Edit: Thanks, Lord Damocles ;) It is because I am figuring them in the Great Crusade, where, as I think (?) they were not effected by corruption, spawndom, sorcerers, they did not have chaos icons or defilers. It is because I am theming it before the Horus Heresy and the fall to chaos. :D
Thanks,
Sqallum

Lord Damocles
24-04-2012, 17:53
Thanks guys. Can I just point out this is PRE-HERESY :D Thanks. Therefore, I cannot use C:CSM..well, you know why..
Sqallum
Honest question:

Why?

althathir
24-04-2012, 17:53
As has been demonstraighted. You don't need Codex BA to field the army the OP wants to field. So to do so, is just a way to use fluff as a reason to field an army with an advantageous rule set.

The lists that have been suggested have differences, regardless im pretty sure Sqallum is going with the vanilla dex. His first list though, is the list I would recommend to most players because they don't have to worry about people not allowing forgeworld (both the chaos and vanilla lists rely on the storm eagle to make the army he wants).

I understand your argument but I think it's flawed. The BA book is a strong dex, but not so much because it can take assault marines as troops but because it has a lot of signature units, items, and characters. If a player makes a list that represents another fraction while ignoring those unique rules, they aren't seeking an "advantageous" rule set, they are looking for rules that represent their army. IF they try to use the fluff to run sang. priests, razor spam, mephie, spam fast av 13, or have hand flamers all over the place than I see the issue. That said you can make a chaos codex build that is a more competitive list than what the OP made, and that would be a more advantageous ruleset than using the skeleton of the BA book, with a raven and dread so the assumption that counts as is an excuse for better rules is off base.


Thanks guys. Can I just point out this is PRE-HERESY :D Thanks. Therefore, I cannot use C:CSM..well, you know why..
Sqallum

Yeah, honestly I just want to talk out this issue, cause it shouldn't be as controversial as it appears to be. I tried to bring up the warbands vs. legions point though at least :D.

Edit: @Lord Damocles - because part of the justification for chaos marines not having ATSKNF, is that they're no longer honorable and are looking out for themselves.

Stonerhino
24-04-2012, 20:56
This stopped being about Sqallum a while back. He said he was going to use C:SM. And I could agree somewhat with the rules.

But it's not like his list was not stepping into BA only turf. The Furioso with Blood Talons riding in a Stormraven and justifying the Red Thrist with fluff manipulation (not Sqallum but other about his list). You can also include stuff like the reduced cost Rhino for the assult squad as rules used just to get an edge. So while his list is a minor offender compared to other lists that are blatenly making a mockery of the fluff. It's still doing it.

... You see it's pre-heresyEven though this sounds like it is directed at Sqallum, it was not. It's just a cop-out often used to force a new ruleset on a "Fluffy" army. When the person stating it is just doing it for the ruleset. And if this offended you Sqallum I apologise for it. It was not my intent.

stroller
24-04-2012, 21:22
Going back to the OP. I wouldn't get annoyed, because I would politely decline to play. Nothing personal: simply that I am not interested in pre-heresy. That's not criticising pre-heresy in any way. In the same way I'm not interested in Napoleonics, or ancient britons, or fishing.

Freman Bloodglaive
25-04-2012, 09:00
Would I play against it? Hell yes. You bring your plastic and metal men, painted however you like, using any rules you like (so long as they're legal) and I'll do the same, and let's have a game.

I don't even regard this as a particularly strong list, by Space Marine or Blood Angel standards. As an aside, you can't take a lightning claw in a bike squad. If you're worried about using an assault cannon in a pre-heresy list you can always replace them with plasma cannon. I'd take multi-melta instead of heavy bolters too. Multi-melta and plasma cannon were both used in pre-heresy armies.

You could always take the Furioso with close combat weapons rather than the claws, if that's a bone of contention.

Lord Damocles
25-04-2012, 16:07
Edit: @Lord Damocles - because part of the justification for chaos marines not having ATSKNF, is that they're no longer honorable and are looking out for themselves.
So?

You don't have to have ATSKNF to show that you're [a] loyalst.

The Cursed Founding Chapters didn't have it when they had their own Chapter Approved lists (CA 2004), and plenty of Fearless Marines lack it.

althathir
25-04-2012, 16:55
So?

You don't have to have ATSKNF to show that you're [a] loyalst.

The Cursed Founding Chapters didn't have it when they had their own Chapter Approved lists (CA 2004), and plenty of Fearless Marines lack it.

What does the Cursed founding have to do with anything? That was gene seed was "fixed" by the Adeptus Mechanicus and they did a poor job it. Most of the the fearless loyalist marines are elites in armies that have ATSKNF IIRC.

Lord Damocles
25-04-2012, 17:09
What does the Cursed founding have to do with anything? That was gene seed was "fixed" by the Adeptus Mechanicus and they did a poor job it. Most of the the fearless loyalist marines are elites in armies that have ATSKNF IIRC.
I shows that you don't need ATSKNF to be a Loyalist Marine.

So any argument that you can't use C:CSM because you don't get ATSKNF is on particularly poor ground from a background viewpoint.

L192837465
25-04-2012, 17:10
Use whatever book you want, when you want to, with whatever paint you want. I like the list and applaud so many claws! (BTW: If you can't take a claw in the bike squad, take a cheap captain on a bike with one!)

althathir
25-04-2012, 17:36
I shows that you don't need ATSKNF to be a Loyalist Marine.

So any argument that you can't use C:CSM because you don't get ATSKNF is on particularly poor ground from a background viewpoint.

Fair enough, saying you can't because of it is probably to strong (though I didn't say that), but it doesn't mean that not having it doesn't better represent the chosen fraction.

Sqallum
25-04-2012, 19:35
This stopped being about Sqallum a while back. He said he was going to use C:SM. And I could agree somewhat with the rules.

But it's not like his list was not stepping into BA only turf. The Furioso with Blood Talons riding in a Stormraven and justifying the Red Thrist with fluff manipulation (not Sqallum but other about his list). You can also include stuff like the reduced cost Rhino for the assult squad as rules used just to get an edge. So while his list is a minor offender compared to other lists that are blatenly making a mockery of the fluff. It's still doing it.
Even though this sounds like it is directed at Sqallum, it was not. It's just a cop-out often used to force a new ruleset on a "Fluffy" army. When the person stating it is just doing it for the ruleset. And if this offended you Sqallum I apologise for it. It was not my intent.

No. It's fine :D Thanks for replying to my thread ;)
Sqallum