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TheDoctor
22-04-2012, 07:50
Hey all, so I took my eldar corsairs to a local tournament yesterday (saturday), and one of my opponents would not shut up about forgeworld being broken. However, he was playing daemons against 8 falcon chassis with holo-fields (3 falcons, 2 night spinners, 3 warp hunters, 2k list). However, at the end of the day, my friend who took regular Eldar took first place, and I placed like 4th or 5th. It was actually my stubborn refusal to give up that turned the final game against grey knights into a draw, allowing my friend to get 1st, and the grey knight guy to only get second.

My question is, do yall think forgeworld is broken/overpowered? My second opponent kept complaining and bitching about it, while my third opponent was like "Well, I'm just not a fan of forgeworld..."?

Edit: The funny thing is, no one started complaining about me using a forgeworld list until I started to win/pull a draw out of my ass. It should have been blatantly obvious to everyone when I told them my army list that I was using forgeworld. But then they used the excuse of "well, I don't know what is in your codex blah blah blah"

Mr Zoat
22-04-2012, 08:05
All of the recent Forgeworld stuff I have seen is either about right in terms of powerlevel or bad. I have seen silly powerful things like the origional version of the Lifta-Droppa, but those have been updated.

Emerett
22-04-2012, 08:07
I honestly think most of the forgeworld stuff is undercosted.

People who complain about it, will complain about anything.

Khornies & milk
22-04-2012, 08:23
This subject has been doing the rounds on Forums for years, and every thread ends the same, FW lovers will always love using the models and rules, and FW haters will have the opposite stance and bitch and moan about them. In the end your opponent can always just say no and walk away from a game, and that holds true for both camps.

Forgot to say what camp I'm in:D I love FW and have $1000's worth, and luckily get to use it all the time, so the haters have zero impact on my gaming.

Latro_
22-04-2012, 08:45
Until FW stuff is a mainstay in tournaments / codex books it'll always be marred with that 'its not balanced' thing.

Way things are going I can see FW stuff being more main streme as GW develops, already starting to see it with finecast.

Either the people you play with are cool with it or they aint, if its a non-competitve situations in my opinion they need to chillout and just enjoy the game... but i'm old and jaded as a wargamer :D.

Satan
22-04-2012, 09:09
My question is, do yall think forgeworld is broken/overpowered? My second opponent kept complaining and bitching about it, while my third opponent was like "Well, I'm just not a fan of forgeworld..."?

Edit: The funny thing is, no one started complaining about me using a forgeworld list until I started to win/pull a draw out of my ass. It should have been blatantly obvious to everyone when I told them my army list that I was using forgeworld. But then they used the excuse of "well, I don't know what is in your codex blah blah blah"

FW is generally considered underpowered. The only thing I've seen that breaks this trend would be the K'daii Destroyer in fantasy.

At current prices, who can be reasonably expected to know what's in another codex? This point is rather moot. I don't think I've ever bothered reading the IG codex for example, and anything I've learned regarding them has been learned from games. What are these people really saying? That they don't like it because they don't have pirated versions of if on their own hard drives?


Until FW stuff is a mainstay in tournaments / codex books it'll always be marred with that 'its not balanced' thing.

Way things are going I can see FW stuff being more main streme as GW develops, already starting to see it with finecast.

Either the people you play with are cool with it or they aint, if its a non-competitve situations in my opinion they need to chillout and just enjoy the game... but i'm old and jaded as a wargamer :D.

Hehe, not like GW stuff is always that balanced to begin with, and it hardly seems to be a focal point for them so I'm happy with whatever... :D

Sami
22-04-2012, 09:24
It depends on which bit of FW you are using.

The general "approved for use in standard 40,000" stamp thing I don't mind, as they're individual units designed to slot into an existing codex structure. For complete FW army lists, it depends on the list itself. A lot of FW lists are designed to be balanced within the campaign presented in the book and not for general 40K games. Often, the lists on paper are scewed towards a certain faction as the missions are designed for narrative play rather than competitive.

I do like having advance warning that FW stuff can be used so I can plan appropriately, but besides that I personally don't have any issues with it. I fully understand if people get upset about full FW army lists being used in regular 40K games (unless the whole thing has the Approved stamp), but for individual units that have the stamp (such as most of those in IA:A 2nd) then I don't mind.

Also, everything seems broken when you're playing as Daemons.

koran
22-04-2012, 10:01
I agree with most of the above. There isnt much that is overpowered from FW and a lot of stuff is a higher points cost than they should be. However, there are some models that go the other way and go too much for their cost, an example of this would be the warp hunter, which in the recent book is too powerful for the points.

Having said that there are enough GW units that suffer the same problem so limiting that annoyance to FW is a bit unfair.

Emerett
22-04-2012, 10:26
There's a couple of entire Codex's that suffer from the same issue.

So I don't really think it's a big deal.

chriscrowing
22-04-2012, 11:26
Despite owning NO FW stuff at all (yet) my position is that if it is an official GW model with official GW rules, then it's legal. Stop complaining because you're getting beaten you bad loser.

Also, the argument that "I don't know what's in your codex" is so inane it's unbelievable. For one thing, is every gamer to buy, read and memorise the contents of EVERY codex. Get to hell. Also, from an in-universe PoV, I'm pretty sure your average IG general (for example) isn't going to be fully aware of the exact capabilities of an Eldar D-Cannon when he sees on for the first time on the battlefield... so the concept that gamers have encyclopaedic knowledge of their opponents armies is a bit... silly.

Also, it's a war-game featuring little plastic models based on genetically modified humans and aliens fighting with laser guns. Stop taking it so seriously.

Oh, and I love the forge world models and if you're commited enough to the hobby to buy that stuff, I consider it an honour to face you on the tabletop.

Kijamon
22-04-2012, 11:35
I love forgeworld, the more variety I can see from game to game the better.

I own a wee bit of stuff and I am looking forward to trying out the storm eagle!

CaptainGallas
22-04-2012, 11:59
I think the real issue is the player's attitude, not the FW-stuff.
It's extremely rare to see a winning player complaining over the opponents army.

On the other hand, one of the most common human defense-mechanism's is to blame somebody/something else for the trouble you are in.
I think for say all Grey Knight players has experienced that. "Your army is broken" (and I'm upset because you just tabled me with units I didn't know of)

Small minded players who can't handle beeing beaten in a table top miniature game will always be around, so it doesn't matter if it's a FW-list,
a new codex, the first 6th ed codex, newly released models, a veteran player who just is really good or just a streak of really lucky dice rolls.

IMO, some players will always be complaining when they loose.
Such players I only play once in friendly games, but in a tourney, you just have to accept it and feel sorry for them.

Shamana
22-04-2012, 12:05
IA 11 did give eldar a few good things, especially in the much-maligned FA slot. It is my personal belief that the Hornet is second only to the Vendetta in the amount of firepower it can unleash for the price, and it is so much better than the vyper there is simply no contest. The Wasp walker is also quite decent (corsairs get it in the troop slot), and the corsair troops are pretty decent, not too different from the DE kabalites. Generally, IA 11 has some good stuff for eldar, but nothing THAT broken - some units just look a lot better than they are because of some poor units or force org slots in the eldar codex.

Corsairs can do an ok mech list* or a fully jetpack list with a lot of corsair squads with jetpacks and heavy weapons. The second is pretty unique but I wouldn't call it broken - it just uses a unit type not often seen and thus may surprise your opponent. If they optimized against a certain list type, and you bring something different, you have an advantage - not because the units themselves are broken, but because the enemy units aren't good against yours - because your opponent chose to specialize against another enemy. Hey, that's their problem.

Something I noticed about corsairs, btw - they don't handle melee very well. Apart from Harlequins or getting a squad of banshees/scorpions, they have no unit that can take on dedicated melee units with good chances of victory.

*although I wouldn't say corsair mech is better than the regular eldar one. Yes, they can field falcons as dedicated transports, but nearly vehicle they have has a 15-point markup due to their BS 4. Eldar vehicles are expensive already, 130 points for vanilla falcons before you add anything on them is a lot.

Tethylis
22-04-2012, 12:20
However, he was playing daemons against 8 falcon chassis with holo-fields (3 falcons, 2 night spinners, 3 warp hunters, 2k list).

I generally dont mind and infact quite like facing up against the odd forgeworld unit, but i do realize some of their units and lists can get abit out of hand. Putting aside the fact that the other guy was playing daemons and was at a tourny, your army there looks like is it effectively running with 8HS slots. So long as you don't mind me bringing something like 8 squads of firedragons in my list to even things out then that would be fine. If you do mind then i would have to ask why should it be ok for you to run so many heavy units without giving your opponent something in return to balance them out?

HRM
22-04-2012, 13:01
My only beef with FW is that you've gotta be ballin' like Kanye West to afford any of it.

Hrw-Amen
22-04-2012, 13:06
I don't get this whole 'I don't know what is in the the other guys codex' thing. I mean why would you want to always know, it is a war game? OK, if you have the means and the ability or know how to get hold of a copy then so be it, chalk it up to good scouting or what ever, if not it is no different than in any countless battles throughout history where one side or another has come up with some new wonder weapon that turns the tide of a battle until the other comes with a way to counter it. That is how war works, so being a war game that is simply more realistic which surely is a good thing? If you still manage to win the battle and did not know what they were bringing or how it worked then obviously you are a much better general and can give yourself a pat on the back.

Importman
22-04-2012, 13:10
I love my forgeworld conversions and I love seeing other people's forgeworld stuff. Thing is if you bother to shell out for forgeworld you are, in my opinion, more likely to model and paint your army to a decent standard.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2

AndMyAxe
22-04-2012, 13:17
As far as I can see it your opponent was whining about losing; just ignore the mind games in a tournament and if you play for fun, don't play him again. If the tourney allowed your army list it was legal. I personally love FW models; I would love them to make large-scale ships set in Warhammer Fantasy but that's just my dream; I can't imagine them doing it.

Born Again
22-04-2012, 13:44
Pretty much agree with the general opinion. I don't think FW is any better or worse balanced than what you would get in any other GW product. People like to cry it's broken because they're unfamiliar with it and don't know the rules, therefore they haven't figured out a guaranteed way of beating it. If they can't beat it, obviously it's broken.

I like FW stuff though and have no problem with it whatsoever so long as people have a copy of the rules on hand - the same thing I'd expect people to do with their GW codex.

greenmtvince
22-04-2012, 14:29
My only beef with FW is that you've gotta be ballin' like Kanye West to afford any of it.

When I first started buying Forgeworld models in the earlier part of the last decade, I would have agreed with you. Now with GW price hikes, there's usually not much of a difference.


I generally dont mind and infact quite like facing up against the odd forgeworld unit, but i do realize some of their units and lists can get abit out of hand. Putting aside the fact that the other guy was playing daemons and was at a tourny, your army there looks like is it effectively running with 8HS slots. So long as you don't mind me bringing something like 8 squads of firedragons in my list to even things out then that would be fine. If you do mind then i would have to ask why should it be ok for you to run so many heavy units without giving your opponent something in return to balance them out?

I don't think it's any different than a codex eldar player going full mech with Wave Serpents and Fire Prisms/Falcons. Sure he put two Nightspinners in there which thematically is a cool idea, but most corsair players regard these as the weakest of the FA choices we have. In fact, I'd argue that a Codex Eldar list or one with access to some IA units is actually a more competitive list than what TheDoctor ran. I dunno, I feel like most armies these days should bring more than enough at 2000 points to deal with that much AV12.


Hey all, so I took my eldar corsairs to a local tournament yesterday (saturday), and one of my opponents would not shut up about forgeworld being broken. However, he was playing daemons against 8 falcon chassis with holo-fields (3 falcons, 2 night spinners, 3 warp hunters, 2k list). However, at the end of the day, my friend who took regular Eldar took first place, and I placed like 4th or 5th. It was actually my stubborn refusal to give up that turned the final game against grey knights into a draw, allowing my friend to get 1st, and the grey knight guy to only get second.

Congrats on your high finish with Corsairs! I'm surprised you had enough firepower with that list to deal with the amount of stuff most people can throw down at 2k. I certainly felt undergunned 1850 and handicapped without a proper autarch to buff reserve rolls. No, you definitely earned your placement, well, I mean aside from some guy showing up with Daemons and handing you a win. :p

tu33y
22-04-2012, 15:13
as a guard player (long time at that) i find FW to bring a real new depth to what I do. The Armoured Company list is my favourite one to use regularly, and many of the models are either better looking or more interesting, particularly the Leman Russ varients, as I find the plastic one a bit bland. but maybe thats because I have about 10. If anything points wise I feel many things are either 10% to expensive or the right cost but underpowered is some other way. I am spoilt because as I live so near lenton I can buy FW toys as easily as normal models.

like a previous poster I used to marvel at the price of FW, but after the main changes in the plastic line they are about right- still a "Premium within a Premium" but not too much to make them unreachable.

also as FW seem to relese new models just "because" not when a new codex arrives if you are waiting for some new stuff to work on it can be a real saviour.

there is nothing really to stop non-superheavy FW models being fully embraced into the mainstream, except some weird snobbery/jealousy that I think even FW and GW get confused about

yarrickson
22-04-2012, 15:15
Absolutely. If the tournament rules say that you can use FW stuff then it'd be rude not to. I can't think of a single fw unit that is "broken" to the extent of certain pre-existing GW official Codex nonsense. Viva FW.

eldargal
22-04-2012, 15:36
FW haven't produced anything as broken as fully mech IG or some GK builds, so next time someone starts whining tell them you'll forego FW when those issues are dealt with.

Inquisitor Kallus
22-04-2012, 15:51
...Deathstorm Drop pods are pretty obscene for their cost. Also the Hades breaching drill I heard was pretty powerful for its points though the Krieg list cant for example do Chimera Vet spam or the like so its not a bad list on the whole.

Every so often there is a unit that is a bit too powerful for its cost, but on the whole FW is slightly undercosted. I dont really care much for tournaments though, and dont tend to spam overpowered stuff so to me Forgeworld expands on the background and slightly more obscure stuff on occasion. Having said that a bit of FW stuff has become mainstream ( Trygons, Pirahnas, Valkyries et al)

Sqallum
22-04-2012, 15:58
I love Forge World - I need the MK2 Crusade Armour for my Pre-Heresy Iron Hands. It is lovely :D
Sqallum

AlphariusOmegon20
22-04-2012, 16:36
FW haven't produced anything as broken as fully mech IG or some GK builds, so next time someone starts whining tell them you'll forego FW when those issues are dealt with.

This.

The last time someone in my store made a comment about FW being broken, I asked them if they had read the GK codex lately....

That quieted them very quickly.

TheDoctor
22-04-2012, 19:57
Thanks for all the replies!

To me, the arguement that "I don't know what is in your codex" is a bit insane to me, since I usually take the time to look through all the codexes and get a general idea of what is in them.

And somebody mentioned how warp hunters are too powerful for their points- they are essentially an Eldar Vindicator- get one gun destroyed result to neutralize them. Also, try playing with them against grey knights...
-Oh look, I glanced your vehicle... it's shaken... it's now not shaken...

@tethlyis
it was 3 dedicated transports, 2 fast attack, and 3 heavies. This is really no worse than Imperial Guard, and significantly worse than guard in the fact that I had 26 infantry models in my entire 2k list. 10 of these guys had no ride, and were to deepstrike in.

Lord Damocles
22-04-2012, 20:09
And somebody mentioned how warp hunters are too powerful for their points- they are essentially an Eldar Vindicator- get one gun destroyed result to neutralize them. Also, try playing with them against grey knights...
-Oh look, I glanced your vehicle... it's shaken... it's now not shaken...
*visualizes situation*

...Nope, can't see anything but this:

'Oh look, I auto-hit your Knights. They all die on 2+ with no armour or cover' :yes:

If you're shooting it at vehicles, you're doing it wrong.

TheDoctor
22-04-2012, 20:16
*visualizes situation*

...Nope, can't see anything but this:

'Oh look, I auto-hit your Knights. They all die on 2+ with no armour or cover' :yes:

If you're shooting it at vehicles, you're doing it wrong.

Then it was probably my grey knight opponent- he had a henchmen list, so when I shot at them, they all got 5++/3++, and sometimes it would drift onto vehicles and/or his psyflymen dreads, where it would promptly be shaken off.

Faeslayer
22-04-2012, 20:32
As an Ork player, I don't find any of the "40k approved"-stamped FW models to be imbalanced.

I don't understand anyone who won't play against FW but will gladly play against Grey Knights.

koran
22-04-2012, 21:36
And somebody mentioned how warp hunters are too powerful for their points- they are essentially an Eldar Vindicator- get one gun destroyed result to neutralize them. Also, try playing with them against grey knights...
-Oh look, I glanced your vehicle... it's shaken... it's now not shaken....

Actually it is more like the blood angel vindi as it can move 12" and shoot. So with that I can agree with you. But its cheaper than the blood angel vindi, so already its seeming good value for money. Then you add in that it has a 36" range as opposed to 24" and has the option of working as a flamer template, therefore not allowing cover saves (though this does have a shorter range). It can also be more effective against tanks as it does not use strength so can hit multiple tanks and still be effective (though as said you are better off not shooting at tanks most of the time).

All this for being less effective against low armour vehicles but less points.

Now dont get me wrong, I love forge world tanks and think they should be used in games (and Im making an eldar army based around D-weapon technology having seen the new cobra) but this is a little too good for the points. If it was a small blast (but still had the flamer option) I would accept it. I just want to give the other side of the argument as I can see why people would be worried about FW models being undercosted if they had experienced something like this. At the same time, as people have said there are plenty of codexs that also have undercosted units.

xxRavenxx
22-04-2012, 21:43
...Deathstorm Drop pods are pretty obscene for their cost. Also the Hades breaching drill I heard was pretty powerful for its points though the Krieg list cant for example do Chimera Vet spam or the like so its not a bad list on the whole.

For 50 points it is sickening. It comes up, removing cover on the unit, and killing on a 2+. It clips tanks to inflict a str 5 melta hit. It can then fire its blast melta gun at a nearby tank or squad of troops to do some more damage. Clip a tank in the right way and you "crush" it against terrain and autodestroy it too.

With the 60 point engineers, and a 20 point demo charge, you also get a turn 3 battlecannon shot which can barely miss, and ignores cover (assuming you throw it with a clear line of sight, which is easy given the building just vanished the turn before...)

Its game-changing. And along with the landraider Indestructimus MK1 rules, the cestus, and the obscene drop pods, it really shows up forgeworld and puts people off the more ballanced items.

Eldars new autohitters are pretty mean too. And lets not forget the ever present nurgle items. The better than a GUO demon prince, the blightdrones (who are also fairly wrong via undercosting) and the soulgrinders direct replacement, the plague hulk.

carlisimo
22-04-2012, 21:43
The biggest problem is that a lot of players haven't read the Imperial Armour lists, and being unfamiliar with your opponent's army is bad news in any game.

Faeslayer
22-04-2012, 21:58
It's not really any more problem than an unfamiliar codex; you ask to see the unit's entry in the book, and you read it. Most FW units are a single page, if that, and they don't always have any new rules at all. I don't have every codex memorized, and I never will, so I already do this with codexes (which are full of special army-specific rules and wargear!).

It's really only a problem if you were hoping to tailor your list to what's in the standard codex.

Wishing
23-04-2012, 00:09
there is nothing really to stop non-superheavy FW models being fully embraced into the mainstream, except some weird snobbery/jealousy that I think even FW and GW get confused about

Personally I see it as GW deliberately keeping FW out of the mainstream, because it fits into their overall business model as a niche product, not a mainstream core product.

althathir
23-04-2012, 00:24
I was just talking about this one an other thread. I tend to think at least in part its because FW isn't sold over the counter (in any store I've ever been too), so the independent retailers really don't want anything to do with it. It also makes people a bit more open to ordering online which alot of retailers can't compete with. So GW doesn't really seem to push it as being legal, so people tend to be one the fence about it.

BrainFireBob
23-04-2012, 00:55
Personally, I chalk it up to age. Early FW was as likely to overpower as under, some people seem to have made the mental note "OP" and stopped paying attention. Just like SCs. Or the guys online who post ranting opinions but haven't played in years. You know them, they're liable to claim fire warriors as OP because they have a str5 gun

Can't edit on the PS, it seems. Or the guy who has to tell you 2nd was quantitatively better "because it was" , then admits he doesn't remember or didn't use half the rules, was 12 at the time, but isn't excited at 30 by the current edition, thereby concluding the game is objectively worse. The guy that can't tell that his getting older is what changed.

blurrymadness
23-04-2012, 01:09
Forgeworld = 3rd party House Rules. This is why people 'disallow' it and why it generally shouldn't be in tournies and such IMO. There shouldn't be a difference between their unofficial rules and let's say... my unofficial rules. Maybe I think the Ork codex is lacking in AT (hint: it is) and want my troops having dedicated transports that are AV12. There's room in the fluff for it by far, it'd likely be no better than BS2 Chimeras with worse weapons; but I'm willing to bet people just wouldn't up and go for that. Why? Because I'm ignoring the choices in my book; sort of like "Oh the codex your army uses isn't good enough for you? Here's some more options!"

The fact that there IS a lot more love for the Imperial races just makes it stand out all the more. Now if we're going to play a friendly match I'd probably want to see the rules before I just become someone's personal punching bag for the next 2-4 hours of my life. I doubt at the moment there are too many ******* players who go Forgeworld, but you make it the norm and you'll get all of them hopping on that bandwagon.

Forgeworld is like the continual version of the new codex; it's like an arms race in my mind. Eldar's anti tank isn't good enough? Let's buff the crap out of it! Ah jeas you have to choose between Nightspinners and Falcons? How about you can have both!


What happened to just using the codex for the army you *chose* and be creative within the accepted realm? I just have this negative notion towards it that it's.. it's not like Eldar or the Imperium REALLY need more stuff. You already have perfectly good; in some cases ridiculous; units, quit whining and use them.

To those saying the FA slot in the Eldar codex isn't amazing for the pure sake of Warp Spiders; I think you're beyond saving and... have lost it mentally. They are fantastic units for reasonable price.

FashaTheDog
23-04-2012, 01:25
There are a grand total of four truly overpowered and obscene units from Forgeworld; the Daemon Lords and only because they were priced by fluff (666, 777, 888, 999, when 1,500 or so is better). Many of the other good units are good for their cost and in a few cases a little overpowered, but nothing too egregious; there are certainly worse GW things out there. Most of the complaints I hear about Forgeworld are clearly ones born of ignorance to the rules, namely "I don't want to deal with super-heavies and titans in a normal game of 40K" being the most common. As far as I'm aware there is only one super-heavy vehicle that can be used in standard games of 40K without a separate detachment; the Gorgon in the Death Korps of Krieg Armored Battlegroup. Sure, I'll run a transport that costs 400-something points and has a quartet of heavy bolters (or one shot mortars) and a heavy stubber in an army already loaded down with Leman Russ :rolleyes:. Actually yeah :D, it makes me able to say that the four Infantry squads and their elite choice command squad for whom the Gorgon is dedicated use it to get around since Chimeras are not in that list, but it is a terrible choice because it uses so many of your points and does so little damage while being only moderately tougher than your standard Leman Russ. I actually changed someone's mind on Forgeworld by using a Gorgon in the aforementioned list. After he blew it away with only a modest effort he laughed at how silly his fears were and how he would give Forgeworld a fair shake. He did, however, swear at the Gorgon's mortars slaughtering his Inquisitor and retinue that were caught in the open due to a bad difficult terrain roll, but not in a "mortars are OP" kind of way, but rather a "why did that unit have to be the one to be caught in the open" kind of way, since everything else that went for cover and made it had power armor.

I have also gotten complaints about my Krieg list, with statements about how they heard the list was way too good and had all these things that make the Guard list unbeatable. When I point out that there are no Chimeras or Valkyries or how I pay extra points to be better in assaults, they look at me funny, like I'm talking about a different list. Most of what the heard had gone along the lines of "they're Guard with Mawlocs and they can allocate hits to their Bassies to infantry," which is technically true, from a certain point of view. Everyone who has then actually played them changes their mind saying that they are clearly weaker than the standard Guard Codex, although that WS4 and baby ATSKNF makes it harder to scythe through my smaller units and that artillery rules are hard to remember since no other army really sees them used as heavily (a quarter to third of my points are in artillery units). Everyone in my group, no exceptions, is in agreement in their complaint that I hog the club's trenches way too much :angel:. How can Krieg possibly hog the trenches too much :confused:?






IMO, some players will always be complaining when they loose.

I always complain when I loose too; it's so embarrassing to need to change your trousers when you're in public :p.

BrainFireBob
23-04-2012, 01:33
Blurry, you're factually incorrect. If it's 40k approved, it's been approved via the official GW design team-located on a different floor of the same building. As to "Your codex not being good enough," why do you resent people getting more than 1 release every 8 years for their army?

rickyard
23-04-2012, 04:35
We already know that our Games workshop "approved" codex will be extremely different in terms of points and organization from one edition to other. We already know that when a new codex appear, our Army Lists sure will be overpowered. When the new edition of core rules appear, we have again some codexes that are overpowered, while others are broken. In months a new codex that was broken can be overpowered with the appearance of a new dex/core.
So: anyone still bothers if FW is overpowered or broken???????

AlphariusOmegon20
23-04-2012, 05:39
Forgeworld = 3rd party House Rules. This is why people 'disallow' it and why it generally shouldn't be in tournies and such IMO. There shouldn't be a difference between their unofficial rules and let's say... my unofficial rules. Maybe I think the Ork codex is lacking in AT (hint: it is) and want my troops having dedicated transports that are AV12. There's room in the fluff for it by far, it'd likely be no better than BS2 Chimeras with worse weapons; but I'm willing to bet people just wouldn't up and go for that. Why? Because I'm ignoring the choices in my book; sort of like "Oh the codex your army uses isn't good enough for you? Here's some more options!"

The fact that there IS a lot more love for the Imperial races just makes it stand out all the more. Now if we're going to play a friendly match I'd probably want to see the rules before I just become someone's personal punching bag for the next 2-4 hours of my life. I doubt at the moment there are too many ******* players who go Forgeworld, but you make it the norm and you'll get all of them hopping on that bandwagon.

Forgeworld is like the continual version of the new codex; it's like an arms race in my mind. Eldar's anti tank isn't good enough? Let's buff the crap out of it! Ah jeas you have to choose between Nightspinners and Falcons? How about you can have both!


What happened to just using the codex for the army you *chose* and be creative within the accepted realm? I just have this negative notion towards it that it's.. it's not like Eldar or the Imperium REALLY need more stuff. You already have perfectly good; in some cases ridiculous; units, quit whining and use them.

To those saying the FA slot in the Eldar codex isn't amazing for the pure sake of Warp Spiders; I think you're beyond saving and... have lost it mentally. They are fantastic units for reasonable price.

Go read the current Chaos codex and it's associated FAQs and then come talk to me about having "perfectly good units".

Faeslayer
23-04-2012, 05:51
I wish they'd named themselves "Games Workshop Fancypants Division" instead of Forge World. People seem so confused about how FW stuff *is* GW stuff.

Hendarion
23-04-2012, 06:12
Sidenote: If Forge World is considered unbalanced, then what are some of the regular Codexes then? :rolleyes:

Dreadlordpaul
23-04-2012, 08:21
I have no problem with forge world tbh, im doing a mono nurgle chaos marine army led by a chaos lord so any extra nurgle units i can get are a bonus and if anyone had a problem with my list i would tell them to read the chaos marine codex and realise how rubbish the book actually is

DietDolphin
23-04-2012, 08:43
I think the main line of thought is "If forge world is so official, how come these units don't make it into the codex?"

Shandara
23-04-2012, 09:31
I think the main line of thought is "If forge world is so official, how come these units don't make it into the codex?"

Because we don't get a new codex every week/month with the newly arrived Forgeworld units in them is what I'd answer.

ErictheGreen
23-04-2012, 09:31
almost all of the FW is consistantly underpowered for its points.

Exceptions being (but not limited to):
- the eldar hornet
- the new heavy conversion turret for the predator (which is still experimental and i expect to change)
- the mortis pattern contemptor

The rest of the stuff is kinda like swooping hawks - amazing models, with no business being in a competitive tournament.

OP; did you point out that the falcons are actually less survivable than wave serpants when delivering troops up close due to the lack of access to that damnable energy field? Holofield is all gravy and all, but falls down before the melta that your opponent should have had in a tournament army (oh wait, grey knights? tell him to shove it).

People over react to the experimental rules, which inevitably change when they're published; the lucious pattern drop pod is a prime example. In the experimental rules, it was overpowered. In the published rules? not so much. more expensive and sucks up a FA slot. and some armies have very good stuff in their FA - typhoons, mm/hf speeders, mm attack bikes etc.

The problem with the "suitable for Warhammer 40k" FW stamp is the second paragraph which states, as people are unlikely to have seen it before, it is wise to ask permission to use it. Which gives players and TOs an instant out to not use. If it had been a flat "this is official, use as an addition to the codex", we wouldn't be having the same arguments over and over. Add to that the only GW supported "tournament" doesn't even allow FW and we see why is isn't adopted more widely.

I love FW, i'd like to see more of it. But until GW and FW get their act together, it is too easy to dismiss it.

boogle
23-04-2012, 10:00
It's about open mindness vs closed mindness really, the former are willing to put themselves against new things, the latter can't/don't think that way. Fw is an expansion of the hobby, the list created are there as alternative and fun lists, which allow people to use more of their collection than they normally would or try out new things and new tactics, Fw is about having more fun on top of the standard stuff.

Oh and the Achilles is a bit ott

Wishing
23-04-2012, 15:05
I think the main line of thought is "If forge world is so official, how come these units don't make it into the codex?"


Because we don't get a new codex every week/month with the newly arrived Forgeworld units in them is what I'd answer.

Yet GW could easily publish the rules for new FW models in WD and state that they are official codex additions, like they did with that Eldar tank at one point (Deathspinner or something?). If GW wanted to have FW models be considered to be codex entries, they could.

Yet they do not want to. Why? Business. FW is a nice little brand with its own business model and its own target audience. GW want to keep them that way, rather than integrate them into their core business model. I guess they feel it works out best that way.

wyvirn
23-04-2012, 15:20
I think that FW is good because it fill a niche. I think it fills a slot for units and vehicles that aren't common enough to justify being in a standard codex. Like would a Baneblade, which takes entire forgeworlds to make in universe, fit into a standard Guard force organization?

Konovalev
23-04-2012, 15:25
My opinion is that FW makes models first rules second. I enjoy the models but avoid FW rules like the plague.

Gondrak
23-04-2012, 16:36
i think forgeworld is fine. they seem to balance units okay, after they had the experimental rules out for a while.
as long as gw itself creates codizes like the grey knights one, i dont see how someone can complain more about forgeworld than gw itself.

Scribe of Khorne
23-04-2012, 17:41
General opinion?

FW stuff is beautiful, expensive ($$$) overpriced (points) and leans toward fluffy rather then competitive in a fairly big way. Anyone who refuses to play them on grounds of army balance takes themselves too seriously.

The Highlander
23-04-2012, 18:23
Most of the forgeworld stuff is not that powerful, though there are a few exceptions (like the drop pod dreadnaughts can assault out of). On the whole Im happy for anyone to use forgeworld stuff against me, as long as they have a copy of the rules for me to have a look at and give me prior warning if they are taking anything too weird (like flyers or superheavies) so I can plan accordingly.

Taggerung
23-04-2012, 19:31
I have a Death Korps of Krieg army that uses the Siege regiment "Codex" or army list, that is totally approved for use in standard 40k. It's a free publication on the Forge World site and is more or less an expansion on the regular Imperial Guard codex. It's far less competitive than regular guard (No veterans, no chimeras, no Valks, no transports that hold more than 5 models or is a command vehicle, no manticores or most of the artillery units), but it's super fluffy and I find even when losing, incredibly fun. It has 1 unit that could be considered "broken" because it's super strong, but it's their only real dedicated anti tank unit, and that's the Hades breaching drill. I don't have one, but the only reason I would even take one is just so I would have a way to put a troops choice on your side of the table (Engineers automatically follow the drill out of it's tunnel the next turn). That being said, I would rather take their vanquishers since GW had time to realize the regular Vanquishers are useless so they gave them a co-axial weapon to make the main cannon twin linked if the co-ax weapon hits.

I have seen some unique FW rules, but most get nerfed after being experimental and if someone really wanted to make a stink about playing against foot slogging guard that can't be mobile even if it wanted too...well they can find someone else to play because it's pretty childish to not want to play something because it's unknown or different.

Lord Damocles
23-04-2012, 19:50
With the exception of a very few units (Achilles, Lucius Pod, Deathstorm Pods, Perhaps the Hades) I'd happily play against any Forgeworld.

So long as the user brings the rules etc. with them...

theDarkGeneral
23-04-2012, 21:51
I think there's nothing wrong with the Forge World models or their rules. I of course especially love them in Apocalypse Events!

The biggest problem I have seen is that most players don't take the time to read their rules and ask questions. "What can this do?" is always a great start, and "What can't it do?" isn't a bad question either. Is there FAQ on the model(s)?

The other problem just has to do with match ups. Uraka is amazing against Tyranids for the most part, and almost useless against the Tau. Land Raider Achilles still gets wrecked by Necrons. Storm Eagle? Awesome until someone assaults it...



The best thing about Forge World (besides amazing models) is that Armies/Codexes that are often out dated can still get some great new models and a "pump" to their Army until GW main gets around to doing their Codex again!

Col. Tartleton
24-04-2012, 02:19
Forgeworld is generally at a disadvantage. It trades raw power for cool miniatures, variety, and style.

Frankly I think they should be all under one roof. Forgeworld stuff should be on the main website. Then there'd be less issues.

Kevlar
24-04-2012, 03:18
40k codex generally follow a pattern similar to other 40k books of the same time frame. Forge World does not. They haphazardly release models/rules and greatly favor certain factions. Most people aren't interested in forgeworld crap, so aren't going to buy the imperial armor books in the first place. So they aren't going to be familiar, or the least bit interested in the forgeworld rules.

Forgeworld releases significantly change the internal balance of a codex by providing a much greater variety of options than are available to a standard codex list. This changes the metagame and most people don't want to deal with even more headaches. Look how many rules questions there are on the standard rule book and codex units. Now you want to add a bunch of poorly play tested experimental rules on top of that?

That is why forgeworld isn't accepted in tournaments. No one wants the headache. Keep it to its own game [apocalypse] or proxy the models as standard codex choices.

Erik_Morkai
24-04-2012, 13:31
40k codex generally follow a pattern similar to other 40k books of the same time frame. Forge World does not. They haphazardly release models/rules and greatly favor certain factions. Most people aren't interested in forgeworld crap, so aren't going to buy the imperial armor books in the first place. So they aren't going to be familiar, or the least bit interested in the forgeworld rules.

I am not interested in Sisters/Chaos/Deamons and will not buy the books. I am not familiar or least interested in them. So...how is that any different?



Forgeworld releases significantly change the internal balance of a codex by providing a much greater variety of options than are available to a standard codex list. This changes the metagame and most people don't want to deal with even more headaches. Look how many rules questions there are on the standard rule book and codex units. Now you want to add a bunch of poorly play tested experimental rules on top of that?


How dare someone upset some cookie-cutter metagame! Your comment on poorly play tested experimental rules hints at some inner knowledge. Do you work there? Know that experimental rules are just that: experimental. Often the rules and point cost will vary once the model gets the final stamp of approval. How can someone accuse FW of being poorly play tested when GW puts out the Grey Knight codex. Did you look at the Adepticon result this year? Among the final 16 players there were 8 Grey Knights. Overpowered a bit? Much?



That is why forgeworld isn't accepted in tournaments. No one wants the headache. Keep it to its own game [apocalypse] or proxy the models as standard codex choices.

Actually Forgeworld is gaining ground on the tournament scene. Adepticon allowed it in many events. Bay Area Open allowed it as well.

The wind is slowly turning, get used to it this subject is far from being over.

t-tauri
24-04-2012, 17:00
Please keep inside the posting guidelines. Several posts removed as well as those quoting them. Please keep it civil.

t-tauri

The Warseer Inquisition

dimitri
24-04-2012, 19:41
about broken :When I got my first FW models(death korps)I found some legs where broken and my paint didn't stuck on it. They where harder to model because they where so delicate and I needed gallons of paint to basecote them. but afterwards the models looked great.

the price is only a little bit high ,but I don't think they are overpowered.

Konovalev
24-04-2012, 20:06
my paint didn't stuck on it. I needed gallons of paint to basecote them.

Sounds like you didn't wash them. You have to wash resin products before painting them or you risk them still having chemical excess which causes paint not to stick well.

dimitri
24-04-2012, 20:52
I did washed them, but it didn't seem to help.

loveless
24-04-2012, 20:57
Look how many rules questions there are on the standard rule book and codex units. Now you want to add a bunch of poorly play tested experimental rules on top of that?


That happens every time GW releases a new Codex/Army Book - questions that existed in the previous book are either vaguely fixed or nerfed from orbit while new units come in and introduce an entirely new set of questions/rules issues.

FW seems to be no worse than GW at rules-writing...neither branch of the GW IP Machine really excels at that portion of the business.

rickyard
01-05-2012, 03:19
I did washed them, but it didn't seem to help.

Did you use spray basecoat? Haven't had any issue and got plenty of forgeworld models :(

wyvirn
01-05-2012, 03:23
I heard the GW spray primer doesn't like the FW spray. I had to buy a certain primer for my IW dread. Once it dried solid, it stayed on.

lekajaw
01-05-2012, 05:23
I love playing against FW models, because it gives me an excuse for my inevitable loss!

In all seriousness, I don't believe FW stuff is outright busted. I will say that they are capable of far more damage that your typical unit. IG Vultures have a way of pulping whole units of my bugs every turn, regardless of what its firing at. But if by some chance I bring it down before then, its just as useful as any other piece of IG armor. If forgeworld stuff good? usually. Busted? Not any more than top tier codices.

dl
01-05-2012, 05:33
If its meant for 40k, i.e. not a titan/super-heavy/flyer, then its all good.
Even the army lists, in fact i'd rather play against DKoK, or corsairs, or renegade guard than a spam list.