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Perfect Fool
23-04-2012, 17:34
Here's a few things I'd like to see done to tweak the High Elves when we finally get our army book (next year sometime I heard rumoured?) along with a couple of guesses as to stuff we'll probably see.

1) Remove Speed of Asuryan from everything.

2) Cut point costs on all troops to account for the removal of SoA.

3) Grant Swordmasters -1 to be hit from ranged attacks (arrow/bullet deflection) and give them a rule that lets them strike in Initiative order but not get re-rolls.

4) Give Spear Elves & Sea Guard either heavy armour as standard or as an option. Make High Elf core the best protected amongst the elves to distinguish them from Dark Elves (the killiest).

5) Move Silver Helms to core.

6) Have a 50 point magic item that grants a 4+ ward save to both bearer and mount vs. shooting attacks so that dragons & griffons aren't total cannon-bait.

7) Reduce the cost of RBTs.

8) Bring back Eltharion the Blind.

9) nerf Teclis and get rid of the Book of Hoeth; they're crutches and not much fun to play with or against.

Guesses as to what'll probably happen:

1) Apparently there's going to be a flying chariot. Not really that excited by the idea to be honest.

2) They'll probably be some kind of Monstrous Cavalry of some description, too. I wouldn't mind White Lion Cavalry, but they'd be nowhere near as good as Demi-Gryphons or Mournfangs going by the lion's current profile. M8, WS5, S5, W2?, I4, A2, SV 4+ isn't all that scary compared to the others, so they'd have to be a fair bit cheaper.

IcedCrow
23-04-2012, 17:41
Here's a few things I'd like to see done to tweak the High Elves when we finally get our army book (next year sometime I heard rumoured?) along with a couple of guesses as to stuff we'll probably see.

1) Remove Speed of Asuryan from everything.


I'd keep it for a couple units.



2) Cut point costs on all troops to account for the removal of SoA.


High Elf troops in general could be lowered in cost due to their extreme fragile nature. While awesome offensively, even archers can mow them down at ease which limits the build types of elf armies.



3) Grant Swordmasters -1 to be hit from ranged attacks (arrow/bullet deflection) and give them a rule that lets them strike in Initiative order but not get re-rolls.


I'd keep the ASF rule for swordmasters. It makes them a very lethal unit as they should be. -1 to be hit from ranged attacks wouldn't make me blink either.



4) Give Spear Elves & Sea Guard either heavy armour as standard or as an option. Make High Elf core the best protected amongst the elves to distinguish them from Dark Elves (the killiest).


If elves get heavy armor (i'm not 100% opposed to this) then keep their points cost about where they are. They'd have a 4+ save, which is not aweful granted they are T3, but you want to be careful about giving access to cheap hordes of them.



5) Move Silver Helms to core.


Meh either way.



6) Have a 50 point magic item that grants a 4+ ward save to both bearer and mount vs. shooting attacks so that dragons & griffons aren't total cannon-bait.


This should probably be expanded in the core rules to any monster mounts.



7) Reduce the cost of RBTs.


To what?



8) Bring back Eltharion the Blind.


Agree, he was a cool character.



9) nerf Teclis and get rid of the Book of Hoeth; they're crutches and not much fun to play with or against.


Yes x1000. Teclis is busted and busts the game.



Guesses as to what'll probably happen:

1) Apparently there's going to be a flying chariot. Not really that excited by the idea to be honest.

2) They'll probably be some kind of Monstrous Cavalry of some description, too. I wouldn't mind White Lion Cavalry, but they'd be nowhere near as good as Demi-Gryphons or Mournfangs going by the lion's current profile. M8, WS5, S5, W2?, I4, A2, SV 4+ isn't all that scary compared to the others, so they'd have to be a fair bit cheaper.
[/quote]

Nothing is confirmed on the rumour front though I wouldn't doubt the lion cavalry as GW is on the monstrous cavalry unit spree.

Urgat
23-04-2012, 17:54
I would doubt the lion cavalry as it's obvious and GW has not released an obvious choice once during 8th ed :p

Perfect Fool
23-04-2012, 18:30
I'd say RBTs are probably worth about 70 points at a push; certainly no more. Archers are generally better against almost everything.

I wouldn't mind SMs keeping ASF to be honest; just hate the rule army wide, it's horrible to balance.

Heavily armoured spear elves are probably worth 8 pts or so, if there's a buffing machine in the list (like the VC or Empire equivalents) I can see them being 9-10pts though. GW seem keen on unit synergy, big kits and unusual decisions so I really don't know.

If they don't do lion riders (which would be hard to balance with the current stat line and still keep good, low T average armour save MC really isn't that attractive TBH) then I think they'll probably get something similar; can't see any MI turning up, don't thin they'd fit in very well!

IcedCrow
23-04-2012, 18:48
The problem with 70 point RBTs is that in a 2000 point list you could take 7 of them. That's potentially 42 48" S4 -2 to the save shots with BS4 and the ability to have curse of arrow attraction put on a target unit. I would say at 70 points they'd need a cap to avoid massive gunline-type spam.

Mozzamanx
23-04-2012, 18:55
There is also the potential for Drake Riders to be introduced. They've already featured in the War of the Beard list and were essentially minor Nobles riding mini-Dragons. Would fit with the huge rise in MC units as well as cementing the Elves as 'the Dragon race'.
I also fully expect to see SoA disappear, although perhaps a different Army-wide rule will be implemented in its place. High Elves always seemed the most defensive of the 3 Elves and so perhaps the ability to Parry with different weaponry.

IcedCrow
23-04-2012, 18:57
Drake riders would be awesome. Flying cav like pegasus knights... I think that that image is very much cool and would definitely be something I could see in a high elf army.

Rodster
23-04-2012, 19:00
The problem with 70 point RBTs is that in a 2000 point list you could take 7 of them. That's potentially 42 48" S4 -2 to the save shots with BS4 and the ability to have curse of arrow attraction put on a target unit. I would say at 70 points they'd need a cap to avoid massive gunline-type spam.

I know the RBT says armor piercing, but doesn't the 8th Edition Rulebook state that there is no armor save now against bolt throwers?

Rodster
23-04-2012, 19:09
If SOA is removed, then High Elves will need something to compensate how easily they die. The only unit in the entire army with a good armor save are DP's and they are not much for offense. I wouldn't mind seeing Teclis not have irresistable force on any double, but it should then be replaced with something else to make him worthwhile. With the protection from miscasts when using Lore of Life, and the fact that Teclis can be killed very easily, if he is simply nerfed, he might as well then be eliminated because he won't be on any lists. I certainly hope the flying chariot rumor is dead wrong. I don't even like chariots to begin with, let alone flying ones. Flying cavalry would be cool though.

Hoshiyami
23-04-2012, 19:15
I agree completely with removing ASF armywide, adjusting point cost/rules to match. Just two or three things I'd like to see...

Add some kind of rule to dragon mage as 'blood pact' or something like it, giving them some kind of warmachine/charriot-like combined stats (using the dragon's T and W, making them useful).

Either remove citizen levy rules (lowering points) or let them choose their equipment replacing the spears (hand weapon, halberds...). This rule is just a little cruel when you realize you need 20 9-points-each spearmen to reach combat to make the most of it.

Oh, and do something with the bowmen...

PS:


I know the RBT says armor piercing, but doesn't the Rulebook state that there is no armor save now against bolt throwers?

It just happens with the 'normal' bolt, not with the 6 shoots.

Hoshiyami
23-04-2012, 19:22
The problem with 70 point RBTs is that in a 2000 point list you could take 7 of them. That's potentially 42 48" S4 -2 to the save shots with BS4 and the ability to have curse of arrow attraction put on a target unit. I would say at 70 points they'd need a cap to avoid massive gunline-type spam.

Right now, even if the were 10 points each you'd be able to take 4 of them (4 rare option at 2000 points), wouldn't you? ;)

Rodster
23-04-2012, 19:26
PS:



It just happens with the 'normal' bolt, not with the 6 shoots.

Thanks for clarifying that for me Hoshyiyami!

Tarliyn
23-04-2012, 19:33
Never understood the asf hatred. Even in 7th it was that bad and it affected things a lot more than it does now.

My wishlist is make my dragon good again. I started high elfs because of dragons and now feel gimped most of the time if I take him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rodster
23-04-2012, 19:38
Never understood the asf hatred. Even in 7th it was that bad and it affected things a lot more than it does now.

My wishlist is make my dragon good again. I started high elfs because of dragons and now feel gimped most of the time if I take him.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now that any strength hits can wound on a roll of 6, all big things are a bit iffy to take.

Rodster
23-04-2012, 19:41
[QUOTE=IcedCrow


Yes x1000. Teclis is busted and busts the game.


If the IF on any double is removed, perhaps it could be replaced with an additional plus to casting attempts? He is supposed to be one of the best casters in the world...this would keep it that way and not be rediculous.

Wildchild200
23-04-2012, 19:42
Firstly you can only ever have 4 of the same rare unit ( and thats only because HE always count as a grand army, otherwise its two at under 3000pts)
Also if i were to guess, i'd say we'd be getting loads more rare choices and Silver Helms be moved to core. This is because we already have a large special section but pretty small rare(2 choices) and core(3 choices) so core becomes 4 choices which seems fine. Special would have 7 choices (i think?)
I could see them adding Imrik back in as a special character, and having the kit build him on dragon or a bare dragon as a rare choice. As for the obligatory monstrous unit, i can see GW going further with the Dragon theme and give us Dragon princes on Drakes but i'd be happy with White lion cavalry too.

IcedCrow
23-04-2012, 19:43
Right now, even if the were 10 points each you'd be able to take 4 of them (4 rare option at 2000 points), wouldn't you? ;)

4 bolt throwers is 24 shots. 7 bolt throwers is 42 shots. Big difference =) 4 bolt throwers in a 2000 point game is not as bad.

Urgat
23-04-2012, 19:48
Aren't RBT two for one?

Wildchild200
23-04-2012, 19:49
Not anymore. i believe they used to be and dark elves still get that but not high elves

Hoshiyami
23-04-2012, 20:02
High elves have ~twice the slots, but just 1 RBT/great eagle per slot. Before the current book (with a 'normal' slot distribution) they had 2.

Pancakey
23-04-2012, 20:23
Drake riders please!!

They would probably look awesome. 50x75 or 50x100 you think? :)

Graxy
23-04-2012, 20:31
I could see them adding Imrik back in as a special character, and having the kit build him on dragon or a bare dragon as a rare choice.

Although I would love to see a new imrik kit, I doubt they will make a new dragon kit just to add a couple of pieces so that you could use the prince as imrik. Realistically, the current dragon model hasn't been out for long enough for gw to even consider re-releasing it. Would really like to see a dragon rare choice though.

As far as the monstrous cav ideas go, I'd probably see small dragons being the most likely idea. From what I've seen from the current 8th edition re-releases, they've started to take things already with models and making a smaller/bigger version of them that has never been mentioned in previous fluff (arachnorok=big giant spiders, demigryphs=small griffons, crypt horrors=big ghouls, mournfang=..... I don't even know). Personally, I want to see them put more of a focus onto the less mentioned cities, like eataine and tor yversse (I know they have eltharion for this, but I want a unit dedicated to them, but this probably won't happen)

Above all though, I want shadow warriors to be worth my time and money. Seriously, was Adam Troke (and the rest of the team) drunk when he wrote their rules?

Perfect Fool
23-04-2012, 20:47
Drake riders sounds much more appealing than White Lion Cavalry; tactically they could be good fun to use too. I could imagine them being M6, WS4, S4 or 5, T3, W3, I5, A3 Save 2+ or something similar. That +flying would make them about on par with Demi-Gryphons and keep their profile in line with the types of dragon.

I like the idea of Teclis getting an additional bonus to cast at the price of losing IF on any double; he's still reasonably good without IF on doubles anyway if you actually add up how much the rest of his equipment is worth, though!

How would you change Shadow Warriors to make them worthwhile? They've never been particularly good compared to the other special choices for as long as I can remember, all the way back to the first High Elf book almost everything in the list has been a better option. Maybe give them poisoned attacks? Access to great weapons? A big points cut?

Graxy
23-04-2012, 20:55
1. Make shadow warriors good.
2. Make silver helms core (making them special not only made them go unused, but it made the army a lot less diversified)
3. Fix Teclis
4. Focus more on the less mentioned cities
5. Keep shield of saphery, but make the large version have a bubble effect
6. Bring back th old cool special characters. Blind Eltharion. Imrik. Who even uses Alith Anar? (even though I think his background is amazing, the gaming side of the hobby doesn't really have a place for him)
7. Points deduction across the board ang getting rid of SoA

Thats basically my wishlist

theunwantedbeing
23-04-2012, 20:59
SoA removed for everyone but Swordmasters.

Armywide fight in an extra rank for everyone (if spearmen can get it, everyone else can).

Additional hand weapon option for Shadow warriors.

Knifeparty
23-04-2012, 21:04
I would like to see...

Speed of Asurian on Swordmasters, they deserve it.

HE need another more fluffy special rule that fits better than SOA. It should be something to do with the defensive nature of their Army. Something like all units gain a parry save in combat, or -1 to be hit in combat to a maximum on 5+ because of how good they are at defending in combat.

Phoenix guard I always felt should be unbreakable in combat, because they can see the future. They already know whats going to happen, so why bother running. Obviously remove the 4++ if they become unbreakable.

Dragon Princes get ithilmar barding back, become strength 4 base.

Silver Helms, move to core, have Ithilmar Barding.

Elyrian Reavers move to core.

Teclis casts irrisitibly on any doubles on the first spell cast per turn. No longer ignores first miscast. Adds +1 power die and dispell die, not D3.

Book of Hoeth, casts irrisitibly on any doubles on the first spell cast per turn.

Reapeater Bolt Throwers should remain expensive so people don't spam them. Theres nothing I hate more than a gun line.
Instead I imagine Bolt Throwers working like this. Solid Shot Strength 8. Multishot works like this. Target a unit within 48" then place the small blast template. For every model under the template fire 1 Strength 4 armour piercing bolt. Roll to hit and to wound as normal, or Target a unit within 48" then place the large blast template. For every model under the template fire 1 Strength 2 armour piercing bolt. Roll to hit and to wound as normal It blanket fires a hail of arrows in a certain area, we will fight in the shade kinda deal.

As for new Units. I could see...

Shrine of Asurian, Chariot with 6" buff that makes units ASF.

Drake Riders like from War of the Beard.

Lion Knights.

Shadow_Steed
23-04-2012, 21:05
New plastic Spearmen!

Petey
23-04-2012, 21:22
1. Lose SoA, gain ASF on Martial Lords and Heroes. Armywide special rule, Warrior Elite Reroll failed to hit rolls except in the first turn of combat.
2. ASF on swordmasters
3. Units of Drake Riders
4. New Hero, warrior mage type
5. Units of Great Eagles 3-15
6. Upgrades to Bolt Throwers. Extra Crew. Flaming Attacks. Str Boost. Magic Attacks.
7. Shadow Warrior Hero.
8. Deployable Waystones to quench magic, and work as turrets.
9. Stoic. All HE units are stubborn when fighting DE.
10. Units of chariots
11. All HE mages channel dispel dice on 5+
12. Champions of High elf Units may buy Magical attacks as an upgrade for 5 points (only the champ not the whole unit)

Graxy
23-04-2012, 21:36
How would you change Shadow Warriors to make them worthwhile? They've never been particularly good compared to the other special choices for as long as I can remember, all the way back to the first High Elf book almost everything in the list has been a better option. Maybe give them poisoned attacks? Access to great weapons? A big points cut?

Look at your shadow warriors, now at your shades, now back to your shadow warriors, now back to your shades. Sadly, they aren't shades. But if they stop being the worst scouts in the game and have their rules written by mat ward, they could be shades.

I'm joking if somone didn't get that :p Obviously I don't want them to be a copy paste job of shades, but bringing them closer to being shades wouldn't hurt. What I''m thinking is dropping their points down to 12-14, giving them some sort of bonus to their longbows to compete with repeater crossbows or waywatcher bows, maybe something like increased range or no modifier for being at long range. If they're going to have hatred, they might as well be able to do something with it. Although I don't see poisoned attacks as being too realistic, just the option of some combat weapon such as a great weapon (like you said) would help a lot. Obviously my suggestions aren't the perfect rules but something along those lines, IMO would be ideal, and would actually make me consider taking them.

Sunner
23-04-2012, 21:49
1. Remove SoA, the 8th ed rules for ASF made this broken. But reduce the points of the army to reflect this.
2. Swordmasters strike at their regular initiative.
3. Fix Teclis.
4. Some bonus against Dark Elves.
5. Some advance in the full timeline right up to the Storm of Chaos.
6. Bring back Blind Eltharion.

BEARO
24-04-2012, 04:35
For all of you people saying..


Remove SoA, the 8th ed rules for ASF made this broken. But reduce the points of the army to reflect this.

First, you do realize that the High Elves 7th Ed. book was designed with 7th Ed. in mind right? They were released BEFORE VC, before DoC, before Dark Elves and before Lizardmen. This is just to give you guys an idea of when High Elves were released.

Second, SoA was made in an edition where the high points associated with High Elves was to represent their "eliteness" on the battlefield - being few in number. They are designed to be the Grey Knights of Fantasy in that respect. To represent their elite nature, they were given SoA to act as alpha strike damage IN ORDER to preserve their fragility. Speed of Asuryan is not just damage, it was designed to be a damage BUFFER so they don't get mauled in close combat.

When 8th Ed. came around, the High Elf army changed completely. They became a lot more killy because of ASF and re-rolls to hit, but they lost the damage buffer that they can no longer kill their enemies before they get to strike back. Stepping up eliminated this genius concept and what you have left is an army that's extremely killy but extremely cost-ineffective at taking damage in return.

So before you guys keep saying, take away SoA and decrease the points for all High Elf units, keep in mind how it was originally designed. If anything, Speed of Asuryan (with 7th Ed. in mind) was the greatest design achievement I've seen from GW's books in a long time. They managed to capture the High Elf army's playstyle completely with one single rule. I just hope they re-balance SoA for 8th in the new HE book without messing it up.

Damocles8
24-04-2012, 17:06
I'd like to see the High Elves keep Army-wide ASF, but the weapons aren't ignored (White Lions and Swordmasters hit at initiative), Silver Helms to core, maybe a point or 2 increase. Drake riders would be nice, and could add to our Rare selection. I don't think Teclis needs to change much, maybe +1PD/DD instead of D3

TheDungen
24-04-2012, 19:28
When Alessio made the 6ht edition skaven book he wanted to add a unit entry in each section belonging to each great clan. Whuiel doing the same thing for high elves with kingdoms is impractical (there are 4 great clans,and the warlord clan option makes that 5, there are 10 kingdoms on Ulthuan) they should try to have a roughly balanced amount of entries from the diffrent kingdoms which means Yvresse Chotigue and avelorn should get stuff (i can let go of Avelorn though because the elves there are so close to wood elfs that you should use that list).

I must strongly oppose chrace (Whit elions and lion chariot) caledor (dragon princes and dragon mages) and saphery (Mages and swordsmasters) gettign any more units. Especially Lion cavalery for charce, elves riding on cats is so generic high fantasy that it creepy and chrace is supposed to be the least populated kingdom (Or is that nagarythe?) seems strange they'd have more units than the others.

The score right now is:

Chotique: 0
Yvresse: 0
Avelorn: 0 (or its own army book depending on how you look at it)
Eataine: 1
Tiranoc: 1
Nagarythe: 1
Ellyrion: 1
Chrace: 2
Caledor: 2
Saphery: 2

The question is ofcourse are characters units in this or not and are dragons, griffons and eagles and such considered to be indapendant or Chrace/caledor.

Ofcourse the realms without a unit is the ones thta it has never been gone into any detail on how they fight. Cotique i just a bunch of fishermen (fisherelfs?), Yvresse is hiding behind its mists and Avelorn is well wood elfs and maiden guard. Problem with adding maiden guard is thta they're very similiar to the LSG. Maybe they could be added back as some sort of elite archers? giving the high elfs some much needed high str attacks outside of bolt throwers (and heavy armour like the archers in the ancient east).

TheDungen
24-04-2012, 21:30
I'm still opposed to lion knights, i'd much prefer drakeriders then even if i still want them to add units to the less used kingdoms. We dont need cotique and Yvresse to be the two lost space marine legions. This is warhammer there isnt room for that kind of thing.

When it comes to teclis making him misscast on all doubles is out of the question, high elf magic is suposed to be stable. I'd rather see him ignore all IR/misscasts and then maybee always geting his spells of anyway meaning he doesnst crush the enemy with one mighty spell but casts spell after spell after spell until they cant diepsell anymore. seems alot more like teclis. And i Use alith anar so: "Take your stinking paws off him, you damned dirty ape!"

I think SOA should read, elves always strike in initiative order, unless when they would otherwise strike first. And then some more minor defence buff, maybe letting elves parry with a spear? Or elves always gettign to parry regardless of weapon.

Regarding silver helms as core, I want to remind everyone why they were made special in the first place. because everyone fielded all cavalery elf armies in 6th. Now that wouldnt be effective in 8th anyway i guess because of steadfast so i guess they could add them back to core.

Maybe shadow warriors and maiden guard (as armoured elite archers as i descibed above) could have a elven long bow with str 4 (but move and fire making it diffrent from normal crossbows) this could also be given to eagle eyes of archer units. And while some of you may exclaim: "But thats better than galde guard longbows!" keep in mind that glade guar dis the most basic wood elf infantery unit while MG would be and shadow warriors are more expensive (in this incarnation they'd prolly have to go up a few points even)

Graxy
24-04-2012, 21:55
And then some more minor defence buff, maybe letting elves parry with a spear?



I like the idea of parrying with a spear. I think it compliments the defensive nature of the army very nicely (both practically and fluffwise).. I would much rather have that than attacking in the extra rank.


Maybe shadow warriors and maiden guard (as armoured elite archers as i descibed above) could have a elven long bow with str 4 (but move and fire making it diffrent from normal crossbows) this could also be given to eagle eyes of archer units.

I like the idea of giving them something extra with their shooting, but S4 bows proabably isnt the way forward. Like I said in my previous post, we don't want a copy and paste job of shades. Neither do we want a copy and paste job of glade guard longbows. I think that we could have something similar but I think that something like that could really be the way forward.

sulla
24-04-2012, 22:08
Perfect Fool is on the right track. Those changes bring HE more in line with the rest of 8th edition.

Then there's room to look back at previous editions. Perhaps multiple wound on white lions to emphasise their role as big beast hunters. RBTs should be s8 single and s6 multi to justify the current cost... or d6 wounds single shot and penetrates ranks on multi to make them worth their 100pts.

They are also guilty of being very plain and typical fantasy elves. GW have gone towards making all the 8th edition armies noticably more 'warhammer' than their previous versions. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few new kits that do this; really out of left-field kits.

boli
24-04-2012, 22:54
I think SOA should read, elves always strike in initiative order, unless when they would otherwise strike first. And then some more minor defence buff

/Agree

Maybe "grace of movement" 6+ ward to dodge and a bonus of +1 to armour... in effect an extra shield

knightwire
24-04-2012, 23:07
Losing ASF would be great. (except for Swordmasters) Once you do that you need a points drop (which GW loves) and something else to help HE against the 8th edition step up mechanic. I made a new book a long while back that did these:

Phalanx
The Asur citizen levy train and fight as a cohesion unit of spears. Years of service and dedication can achieve a nearly impenetrable wall of weapons
for their foes to waste themselves against, all the while maximizing their defense from the protection of the spearman beside them.

When using a spear on foot to the front, High Elves may attack in an additional rank. High Elves using a spear and shield may
Parry.



Ithilmar Armor
Made with unequalled skill, Asur armor is forged with Ithilmar. Some races prefer to gain protection by increasing the thickness of their plate
while the Asur instead make the armor style of their ancestors from stronger material. This gives a High Elven warrior the ability of wearing armor
that remains somewhat light and yet still capable of turning away even the strongest of blows.

If allowed an armor save, Ithilmar Armor cannot be modified to less than itís basic armor value. (i.e., 5+ if wearing heavy armor
and 6+ if wearing light armor.)



I also think they could make some easy buffs to Core Units (only) by province to let people get creative with the HE armies. Something like this:

Avelorn - Magic Resistance (2)
Caledor - Immune to Fear and Terror
Chrace - Forest Strider
Cothique - Re-roll failed To Hit rolls when shooting
Ellyrion - Always March
Eataine - Champion may take magic items up to 25 pts.
Nagarythe - Nagarythe Hatred
Saphery - Magical Attacks
Tiranoc - Immune to Impact hits
Yvresse - Re-roll failed Armor Saves

I'm not saying these are perfect or anything, but they certainly have a wealth of material to work with to make the HE army fun and versatile in ways that are different from the other T3 armies. (Instead of ASF) I really like the idea of Core Units being a major component of any HE army. They have all the support units fleshed out very well for flavor and variety. I also do very much like the idea of Caledorian Princes on drakes as a Rare monterous choice. Especially considering the ending to the last HE novel.

I'm very worried about how the trend in low magic items for the new books with hit us. I love our magic items now. :)

Sheena Easton
25-04-2012, 11:39
Heavy Armour on Spearelves

Silver Helms return to Core

Lion Chariot Rare and double in points so noone takes this abomination that should not exist.

Phoenix Guard should be Rare and Caradryan should be a Champion upgrade

Korhil a Champion upgrade for White Lions

No Lion Cavalry. Ever.

Pegasus & Unicorn as mounts for characters

Eltharion remains the Warden Of Tor Yvresse on Stormwing. That retarded superjedininjauberswordmaster version remains an aberration used to flog a few issues of White Dwarf.

Athlan na Dyr
25-04-2012, 12:45
Heavy Armour on Spearelves
Silver Helms return to Core
Phoenix Guard should be Rare and Caradryan should be a Champion upgrade
Korhil a Champion upgrade for White Lions
No Lion Cavalry. Ever.
Pegasus as mounts for characters
Eltharion remains the Warden Of Tor Yvresse on Stormwing. That retarded superjedininjauberswordmaster version remains an aberration used to flog a few issues of White Dwarf.

Agree with the (trimmed) above.
Furthermore
- no ASF on anything but Swordmasters
- Spears used by High Elves 'count as' hand weapons (so spears give the +1 rank, and can be used in conjuction with shields for parry)
- Fight in Extra Ranks
- Points cost reductions on a great many things
- Unridden Dragons in Rare
- Dragon Riders in rare (yes, full sized dragons. Tell me you wouldn't want 'em)
- Drake Riders (smaller dragons. Flying Monstrous Cavalry? Hells to the yeah!)
- a reduction in the brokeness of Teclis
- a buff to the awesomeness of Tyrion
- An increase to survivability. Whilst not a fan of 'buffmobiles for all!', high elves are definitely known to use magic extensively and value their lives highly. A regen/ ward/ negative modify to enemy to hit rolls would be very nice

Warlord_Grotsnik
25-04-2012, 13:43
Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.

TheDungen
25-04-2012, 13:49
at first i hated te phalanx idea but then it grew on me, it shoulld ofcourse be called soemthign more elven but sure the elves are the romans/greeks of the warhammer world phalanxes seems logical. However if its a phalanx it shoudl be harder to manouver than a normal unit, "Phalanxes may not do a quick reform test" perhaps?

You dont want str 4 on the bows? its not at all like RxBs thoose are 2str 3 hits. though i can see the similarity with the glade guard longbow. the thing is there is only so much you can do with a d6. And the biggest drawbakc of long bow shooting is str 3, hard to wound anythign but basic infatry and doest reduce armour save. I wouldnt want the shadow warriors to drop in points either they're not much more expensive than normal archers as it is.
But you could make them the witch hunter os high elf society (i know the swordsmasters is givne this role in the latest army book but it doesnt realy fit them anyway) hunting down any taint of chaos in ulthuan to prevent others from falling like their kin. as such they could have a reroll to hit casters?



Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.
I totally agree, being able to hit with greatweapons at their high initative makes sure they hit before nearly anythign anyway, sure no reroll to hit but they got like the highest non lord/hero ws in the game anyway.

Make them able to parry with a greatweapon instead fitting in the more defensive nature fo the high elves.

Kahadras
26-04-2012, 00:06
Drop ASF.

Give all HE Great weapons a 'master crafted/finely balanced' rule to allow them to strike in initative order.

Drop costs across the board as with the advent of step up and stubborn hordes the elite High Elves tend to get mown down pretty quickly and this needs to be aknowledged.

Remove irrisistable force/miscast from High Magic as the amount of training of a Slann/High Elf Mage needs should allow them to avoid the mistakes of lesser races.

Ellyrion Reavers to core, Dragon Princes to rare, reduce the cost of Silver Helms

Book of Hoeth grants you loremaster and allows you to pick your spells from multiple lores (Teclis can have the same ability).

Kahadras

Athlan na Dyr
26-04-2012, 09:20
Why the bloody hell do Swordmasters deserve ASF? So not only do they wield large two handed swords with the finesse of a rapier, but they also strike faster as well? 2 strong attacks with high initiative and weapon skill is good enough in my opinion. They aren't wardancers.

Hasn't that been the Swordmaster's schtick for a while now? Besides, of the three high elven elite, they are the burst damage + crappy survivability one, lions are the middling ground and PG are the tanks. They bloody well should be hitting like a boss because they die to a stiff breeze.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with it if wardancers became even better...

Wesser
26-04-2012, 11:57
I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.

2. Instead of Lion cavalry which would be kinda dull, I'd rather see the Dragonmage reworked into a rare unit of some kind. I can provide many reasons, but chief is that we need more dragons (or rather these would be drakes, but you get the idea)

3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

4. When it comes to RBT's I'm biased because they always tend to carve a statistically implausible wake of destruction through my army. "Ow did that volley kill all your Blood Knights?", "I guess I was pretty lucky to shoot your general off his monster in the first turn", "Yes I killed that Keeper of Secrets with 2 shots, but statistically I shouldnt have". Oh well aside from my horror stories facing them I just think they should be made into ballistas that can move and shoot allowing for some flexible support fire. Probably wouldnt be quite enough to justify 100 pts, but I think it would different and appropriate for High elves.

5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

Graxy
26-04-2012, 20:08
5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

I think the actual fluff for them is that the've walked through the sacred flame of Asuryn so are blessed, but I don't have my book on me to hand so that's not guarenteed to be right either :)

Otherwise, ony real thing I have against your point is about the RBT being changed to ballistas. I don't really think that a moving bolt thrower is that great an option really, since it would suffer the move and shott, but I don't even use RBTs anyway so my opinion's kinda invalid

Sunner
26-04-2012, 23:24
Yes, I meant this was a result of the 8th edition change rather than a problem with the high elf book when it was released.

Hoshiyami
26-04-2012, 23:38
I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.


3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....



Do you realize that point 1 & 3 are something like... keep them being fragile and expensive? You find it's insanely stupid that dark elves cost the same as empire troops... but you're ok with Ulthuan sending its citizens with the same protection as goblins? This is the best Vaul's teachings can do for them?

TheDungen
26-04-2012, 23:41
Hasn't that been the Swordmaster's schtick for a while now? Besides, of the three high elven elite, they are the burst damage + crappy survivability one, lions are the middling ground and PG are the tanks. They bloody well should be hitting like a boss because they die to a stiff breeze.
Though I'd be perfectly fine with it if wardancers became even better...

Nah swordsmasters struck in initiative order in 6th edition they got ASF same time as everyone else. Same thing for PG as tanks they used to cause fear instead in 6th the ward save is a 7th edition thing.


I think the actual fluff for them is that the've walked through the sacred flame of Asuryn so are blessed, but I don't have my book on me to hand so that's not guarenteed to be right either :)

They've seen the chamber of days where the future of the world is written in fire on the walls. I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure only the king passes through the fire. Considerign thta evne he does so under enough protective spells to sink a boat it seems unlikely.

TheDungen
26-04-2012, 23:50
I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.

I cna agree with that, high elves are the warhamemr world version of the ancent empires. Heavy armour was very uncommon in rome and ancient greece.



3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

They could make them cheaper if they got rid of that relic of the past of the elves being a dying race (well hello overdone tolkien idea). And altars doesnt fit elves they dont practice religion like that, elves seke out religion whenever they fele they need it, not any other way around. Priests are more spirutal guides than preachers.


5. Phoenix Guards..... that ward save... it's gotta go down. It's the worst kind of fluff. If they know the future then why do they have a ward save? What does it represent? That they are less likely to die because it probably isnt there time or what? If they are to die in that battle they shouldnt have a save. If they are to die, they should be indestrubtible. Or is the enemy able to tamper with future? Because in that case they dont know anything...jeez (okay teh fluff is second-hand, so sry if I got it wrong).

Well the eldar that can see the future can see many possible futures so the ward save can mean that they already know what the enemy will do. i prefered when they caused fear instead.

R Man
27-04-2012, 00:42
I cna agree with that, high elves are the warhamemr world version of the ancent empires. Heavy armour was very uncommon in rome and ancient greece.


No it wasn't. The Romans had their lorica segmentata with huge shields and Greek Hoplites were decked out in fully body armour, and also with big shields.

As for High Elves lets have a look at them. Well ASF was originally created because a full on charge could too easily shock elven units off the board before they got a chance to attack, but now it seems to result in unit blenders, and Elves gain no survivability from it. I agree that it should go, but what to replace it with? They could be cheaper, but this goes against the aesthetic. So they could be tougher, but this could also be against the aesthetic. Faster? Too hard to balance. Or perhaps we could do it unit by unit? Or changing the balance of the army. Or all of them.

So first of all I'd move the list around. Lion Chariots and Dragon Princes into Rare, and Reavers into Core. I just think it's bad to have such similar units in the same category. Starting with High Elf missile troops who need it bad. They don't need ASF, so it goes. Archers need a points reduction, as they are poor value for their cost. I also think they should get light armour for free at 9-10 pts (essentially a 2 pt reduction), perhaps with heavy armour as an upgrade? Next come Shadow Warriors. Perhaps they could be more melee oriented and give them an extra HW. Or perhaps a pre-game round of missile fire? A sort of opening shot? Or possibly a form of hit and run, so they can shoot and flee as a charge reaction? Then the repeater, it could stand to loose 10 pts, but should stay the same. I also think they should introduce scorpions to the list. Range 36, St 5 AP as a special unit for 30 pts or so (3 to a unit?). To help hit monstrous infantry and the like.

I think this would help the army as a whole too. Elves are too vulnerable to missile fire, but increasing elven counter fire will help reduce that weakness.

Infantry too needs a change. I think Spearmen should just drop a point, for simplicity, but I think Sea Guard are too similar, they should be changed, somehow. I'm just not sure what too. Perhaps a terrain rule? To represent them adapting to fighting on loose ground. The Elites may be a case for keeping ASF, but I'm not sure. Though I think that Phoenix Guard should trade fear for ItP.

Cavalry needs a few changes too. I think Silver Helms should automatically have shields, but not barding, so that Elves have a fast, medium cavalry. Reavers could do with being a few points cheaper, or gaining a Parthian Shot type ability.

And that's about it for now.

Damocles8
27-04-2012, 01:09
Infantry too needs a change. I think Spearmen should just drop a point, for simplicity, but I think Sea Guard are too similar, they should be changed, somehow. I'm just not sure what too. Perhaps a terrain rule? To represent them adapting to fighting on loose ground. The Elites may be a case for keeping ASF, but I'm not sure. Though I think that Phoenix Guard should trade fear for ItP.


well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

Godswildcard
27-04-2012, 01:27
Yes x1000. Teclis is busted and busts the game.



I disagree. Lets not forget that Teclis is supposed to be the greatest living mage in this age of the world. Keep Teclis EXACTLY as is. He's a T2, No save-of-any-kind lord choice with far to few wounds to offset either of those. I would simply up the points to ensure he can't be taken below 3000. Jobs a good 'un.

I would, however, remove the Book of Hoeth. Useless item when Teclis is in the same book.

Hoshiyami
27-04-2012, 02:51
well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

Skeletons and zombies widely disagree.

And for a miniature-to-miniature comparation (costing 150% is quite a difference), I dare you to compare that empire shielded spearman with an equaly equipped gobbo.

thrawn
27-04-2012, 02:59
monstrous cavalry!?!?!?!

drakes! drakes! drakes!

IcedCrow
27-04-2012, 03:43
I disagree. Lets not forget that Teclis is supposed to be the greatest living mage in this age of the world. Keep Teclis EXACTLY as is. He's a T2, No save-of-any-kind lord choice with far to few wounds to offset either of those. I would simply up the points to ensure he can't be taken below 3000. Jobs a good 'un.

I would, however, remove the Book of Hoeth. Useless item when Teclis is in the same book.

Nagash is also a super powerful mage... and they don't have him in the game because... supposedly "he's too powerful to represent on the table". He busts the game. Very very few people enjoy games with Teclis involved, unless they happen to be the one on Teclis' side. That by itself busts the game. He's too cheap for what he can do and has no place IMO in a 2000 point game.

RugbySkin
27-04-2012, 05:14
Waah Teclis, Waaah Teclis. The Zakdorn have a word for Mismatch. it's called "Challange". So who're you gonna believe. The internet naysayers or a quote form a non sucky non season finale ep of Next Gen? As for balancing him, just do what they did with Manfred. Make him 525, so he's out of the range for a 2000 pt game.

As for Speed of Asaurean, just let them always hit first, regardless of weapon, but no re-rolls. To balance that, maybe a High Magic spell that adds +1 ro attacks for a unit or something.

For Archers, Maybe a point reduction or give them the armor for free.

Silver Helms, make 'em a wee bit cheaper and make 'em core. All the elf noble shave to be in them, fluff makes em sound core.

For Reavers, give them scout. Elves need a good misdirecting unit.

And the eventual "Big Centerpiece Model" they'll be getting, like everyone else, just make it rare, so someone might actually have to choose to take any rare slots.

R Man
27-04-2012, 05:54
well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

I think your comparison is asinine. Comparing individual warriors is not a good way to measure effectiveness. 3 points seems to buy you a lot, but this ignores several important factors that are not apparent on the individual scale. First of all, on the unit scale and for equal points, the Empire unit will have half again as many men than the elves. This leads to more durability against missiles, more likely for Steadfast and when they are steadfast they will keep it for longer. In addition Empire troops have access to a wide variety of high powered missiles which the Elves just can't compete with. HE can try magic, but it's expensive and unreliable and the Empire can have a pretty good crack at magic themselves.

In addition you didn't notice that I said ASF would probably go. That's one bonus down.

Damocles8
27-04-2012, 06:25
I think your comparison is asinine. Comparing individual warriors is not a good way to measure effectiveness. 3 points seems to buy you a lot, but this ignores several important factors that are not apparent on the individual scale. First of all, on the unit scale and for equal points, the Empire unit will have half again as many men than the elves. This leads to more durability against missiles, more likely for Steadfast and when they are steadfast they will keep it for longer. In addition Empire troops have access to a wide variety of high powered missiles which the Elves just can't compete with. HE can try magic, but it's expensive and unreliable and the Empire can have a pretty good crack at magic themselves.

In addition you didn't notice that I said ASF would probably go. That's one bonus down.

Even taking ASF out of the picture, it's still a killer bargain for 3 points, as for shooting, our archers are 2 points more expensive than handgunners or crossbowmen, have longer range, better leadership, and better ballistic skill, at the expense of hitting slightly weaker......that seems to be a fair difference in points.

Athlan na Dyr
27-04-2012, 06:42
Nah swordsmasters struck in initiative order in 6th edition they got ASF same time as everyone else. Same thing for PG as tanks they used to cause fear instead in 6th the ward save is a 7th edition thing.


ah, my bad!


well lets see here....9 points right now, includes shield, light armor, spear....compare that to the most recent released infantry of similar capability, the Empire Spearman. With shield the Empire Spearman is 3 points cheaper than a HE Spearman, yet the HE Spearman gets ASF, Martial Prowess, +1 Movement, +1 WS, +2 Initiative and +1 Leadership, it's completely asinine to even ASK for a point reduction on the Spearman, with the tendency of EVERY new book to increase infantry units' point costs.....

As stated above, no more asf
3 points for Martial Prowess, +1M, +1 WS, +2 I and +1 ld seems about right to me :confused:
Admitedly, I've not thought for some great length of time, but ld is a easily modified stat, WS and I bonusses are worth around 1 maybe up to 2 points depending on who's writing the book, Movement is ~0.5 (extrapolating from banner of swiftness on a reasonable sized unit of 30) and Martial Prowess is ~1

A note on Sea Guard: Seeing as right now they're just 'spearmen with bows', how about some other weapon options? Whilst no nautical expert, spears don't really seem the greatest thing to use on a ship to me. Perhaps a base option of hand weapons, LA and shield, with options for:
- Spears (as current)
- Bows
- Sea Axes (read- halberds?)

Just a thought on making them a bit different to the other two core options.



1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.


Eh, the thing is that if ASF is removed (fingers crossed), you're left with either
a) a fragile force that can't really do much damage sans their elite GW troops, but is cheap enough to field a lot of
b) an elite force thats quite defensive despite their universal T3 due to some gimped special rule or ward (e.g. daemons and phoenix guard with their ward saves)
c) a reasonably well armoured and reasonably elite force (though not on chaos warrior levels)

to me (woo, opinion!) the last seems the easiest and simplest to implement, without lowering HE costs but a bucketload. Retains the elite feel, adds some 'craftmanship' vibes without cluttering the book with umpteen pages of special rules that probably won't work the same way with the next edition.

Absolutely agree with all your other points bar the RBT though.

R Man
27-04-2012, 07:16
Even taking ASF out of the picture, it's still a killer bargain for 3 points, as for shooting, our archers are 2 points more expensive than handgunners or crossbowmen, have longer range, better leadership, and better ballistic skill, at the expense of hitting slightly weaker......that seems to be a fair difference in points.

Except it isn't. The extra movement, initiative and Leadership are not worth that much. Maybe the WS is worth it, and maybe the Citizens Levy, but a good portion of that utility comes from ASF. You are also ignoring Empire Detachments, a significant advantage to Empire troops, especially with their fighting style. Again, you've ignored how units actually work in practice.

Your archer comparison is also off. As it stands now archers are three points more expensive than crossbowmen. They do not have longer range. The crossbowmen have more strength, a critical advantage. The Elves have extra Ballistic Skill. that's it. Most of their other stats are worth very little. Do you really think that BS4 + Move and fire is worth 3 points over Strength 4? Now Longbows do have 6" range over handguns, but handguns have AP. Again, is 6" range worth 3 points over AP? An extra point of Strength is only slightly stronger on its own. As units become larger it becomes a major benefit, along with numbers.

So I would say that Elven archers deserve a points reduction.

Athlan na Dyr
27-04-2012, 08:49
I thought the general assessment (of internet wisdom) was that handgunners and crossbowmen were overpriced for Empire anyway...

IcedCrow
27-04-2012, 14:09
Give high elf bowmen some range and armor piercing with their bows. Leave the rest alone. They don't need to be S4. S4 should not be the new baseline for everything.

Damocles8
27-04-2012, 16:15
Except it isn't. The extra movement, initiative and Leadership are not worth that much. Maybe the WS is worth it, and maybe the Citizens Levy, but a good portion of that utility comes from ASF. You are also ignoring Empire Detachments, a significant advantage to Empire troops, especially with their fighting style. Again, you've ignored how units actually work in practice.

Your archer comparison is also off. As it stands now archers are three points more expensive than crossbowmen. They do not have longer range. The crossbowmen have more strength, a critical advantage. The Elves have extra Ballistic Skill. that's it. Most of their other stats are worth very little. Do you really think that BS4 + Move and fire is worth 3 points over Strength 4? Now Longbows do have 6" range over handguns, but handguns have AP. Again, is 6" range worth 3 points over AP? An extra point of Strength is only slightly stronger on its own. As units become larger it becomes a major benefit, along with numbers.

So I would say that Elven archers deserve a points reduction.

Looking at detachments is kind of tricky, it's something you MAY use, instead of something that comes with the models you purchase, and if you look at the detachment rules, the detachments got significantly worse.

Your comparison to crossbowmen is slightlty off, they are 2 points less than archers (not 3) they are only Str 4 and have 6" less range and 1 less BS, they don't have AP, and worse leadership, sounds fair to me.

I play Empire, Bretonnia, and High Elves, looking at the differences between the 7th ed Empire and 8th ed Empire, then looking at 7th ed High Elves can kind of give you a direction in which new books are generally going.

TheDungen
27-04-2012, 16:26
Well Bs is worse than str since ws willa alwyas roll against a set amount it doesnt matter what you fire at (though it might matter where the target is) you'll hit those elite guys equally easy as the cheap troops. and bs 3 is decent, you'll hit with a fair amount even at long range. Bs 4 is better ofcourse but i'll take a bs 3 attack with str 4 over a bs4 with str 3 any day. Why? because T4 and higher isnt that uncommon and str reduces armoursaves.

And for the greeks and roman heavy armour yes it was plate but it was a breastplate and greaves and maybe bracelets, nothign on the legs or arms until the late roman empire when they changed to chainmail which was considered better than the old lorica segmenta. (which tells you how effective the segmenta was).

The greek phalanx had even less while 300 may be a little overdone a hoplite wore very little beyond the breastplate the helm and the hopla (shield)

sulla
27-04-2012, 16:34
I feel the need to chip in here before my High elf-playing nemesis.

1. I disapprove of heavy armour for spearmen. Sure the elites have it, but high elves just shouldnt have heavy infantry akak 4+ or better armour saves. I could offer arguments, but my personal opinion is that it just don't fit.



3. Spearmen can't be allowed to get cheaper. As it is I find it insanely stupid that dark elves costs the same as empire state troops. Elves-must-cost MORE! AS to what should replace SoA it depends on the author. If Cruddace is to write the book I'm putting my money on some kind of altar that provides ASF within 6. He's inventive you know.....

The problem with this is that both DE and HE spears wear armour that is visibly more than 'light'. For that reason alone, heavy armour should be considered. It's one way to achieve your point 3. I think it's a given that DE spears will go up in price when their book is redone. They were priced for 7th, where 5 heavy cav could charge your 30 elf spear unit, break and run them down in the same phase.

Hopefully GW will realise that the soft stats (mv, ws, I) are just not as useful as strength, toughness and attacks and stop pricing them like they are. That said, the trend has been to price infantry higher in 8th unless they are utter chaff, but if they actually want to see elven armies based on solid blocks of spears they need to realise that expensive units with poor survivability and s3 are not going to win you the game. If there is a better option in core, it will be taken instead.

TheDungen
27-04-2012, 16:37
And i'm not saying str 4 on regular bowmen i'm saying on a possible elite armoured bowmen unit, giving High elves a non close combat special choice.

Other possible choices would be some unit that fights a bit like the roman infatery, short sword and shield and throws javelins before charging. could be yvresse or chotique unit specialising in defending the coast from raiders.

Wesser
27-04-2012, 16:51
Do you realize that point 1 & 3 are something like... keep them being fragile and expensive? You find it's insanely stupid that dark elves cost the same as empire troops... but you're ok with Ulthuan sending its citizens with the same protection as goblins? This is the best Vaul's teachings can do for them?

Yes. For all the arguments about Ithilmar armour I just dont think elves should be tough. Phoenix Guards feel rly odd to me for this very reason. My Empire has found itself outnumbered by elven armies, which really really shouldnt happen. I could support something elves being able to parry while using a spear or sumthing, but an elven spearmen should be at around 9 pts. Like with the Empire somethign within the rest of the army will have to compensate such a cost.



Oh and New point.

I'd like to see Lothern Seaguard go to special and gain "Ambushers" special rule to represent a rapid deployment from an elven navy. And if a battle takes place inland? Let's imagine the elves copied Wulfrik's ship

TheDungen
27-04-2012, 18:02
No LSG shouldnt be special, High elves have far to few core choices as it is.

R Man
27-04-2012, 22:43
Looking at detachments is kind of tricky, it's something you MAY use, instead of something that comes with the models you purchase, and if you look at the detachment rules, the detachments got significantly worse.

Your comparison to crossbowmen is slightlty off, they are 2 points less than archers (not 3) they are only Str 4 and have 6" less range and 1 less BS, they don't have AP, and worse leadership, sounds fair to me.

I play Empire, Bretonnia, and High Elves, looking at the differences between the 7th ed Empire and 8th ed Empire, then looking at 7th ed High Elves can kind of give you a direction in which new books are generally going.

Wait...did they change the rules in the latest Empire Book? I remember them being 8 pts with 30" ranges. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know what the changes are. I mean it's 30" in the BRB, why would they change it for the Empire Book?

theunwantedbeing
27-04-2012, 22:59
Wait...did they change the rules in the latest Empire Book? I remember them being 8 pts with 30" ranges. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know what the changes are. I mean it's 30" in the BRB, why would they change it for the Empire Book?

It's not changed.
A mistake was made, presumably
getting the handgun and crossbow ranges mixed up
or forgetting that not all crossbows have the range of the dark elf repeater crossbow
or somebody he knows has been using the wrong range for his crossbows

You could justify 9pts for a high elf with a longbow and light armour (no SoA) just fine.
They'de not be that impressive of course, but you aren't going to turn high elf archers into some deadly long ranged killing machine.

LSG could get moved to special if silver helms got moved to core.

R Man
27-04-2012, 23:12
It's not changed.
A mistake was made, presumably
getting the handgun and crossbow ranges mixed up
or forgetting that not all crossbows have the range of the dark elf repeater crossbow
or somebody he knows has been using the wrong range for his crossbows

You could justify 9pts for a high elf with a longbow and light armour (no SoA) just fine.
They'de not be that impressive of course, but you aren't going to turn high elf archers into some deadly long ranged killing machine.

That's what I originally assumed, but then I remembered the Empire came out recently. As you note, High Elves just lack the type of army that would allow them to be a truly effective gunline. So I don't see the problem with making them a little better.

Trains_Get_Robbed
27-04-2012, 23:38
After about 250 some-odd games into 8th ed. what I would like to see for my H.E:

The entire book reduced in point costs, or special rules applied to meet their current prices, more inherent effects on the magic phase to make it stable. Lastly, more core and rare choices, and the introduction of a "broken" monster/chariot/monstrous infantry and a redux of the STAR/moon/sun Dragon(s) -they're supposed to be the "best" and "oldest" in the world, cost them appropriately and make apply abilities that will actually make them worth taking.

How to go about doing so:

Silver Helms moved to Core -they are utterly useless currently, give shields for free and moving to be compared to Spearmen, Archers, and LSG, then yes they would become relevant again.

Shadow Warriors cut in points, add abilities, moved to Rare -give them multiple shots special rule S3 A.P, or K.B, or Posion being able to be upgraded, make B.S 5, currently they are the worst scouts in the game.

Ellyrion Reavers, move to Core, shave off a few points -if they were 14-15 points before upgrades, and such upgrades were cheaper they would be played more; especially in Core section as there isn't any reason again to bother taking them (still need something to set them apart from the pack).

Rbts need to go down in points (10) and moved to Special - tack on an extra crewman and give them a special rule where if a Rbt within 6in' had prior shot at a unit this turn, any following RBT can reroll 1's, if no special rules akin to the example, then lower 10-15 more points.

Dragon Princes- down 2-3 points.

Tiracnoic and Lion Chariots- being able to be taken in units, both lowered in points (5-15), Lion Chariot raised in toughness.

Great Eagles- raised by 5 points

White Lions- Lion Cloaks only +1 A.S, but works against everything.

Phoenix Guard -Unbreakable, Immune to Psych, +1 point.

Sword Masters- -1 to hit from non-magical attacks (both ranged and in C.C)

LSG -right now as they stand they are currently overcosted, automatically get a normal long bow, Light armor, and Illithamar armor spear and shield, but give an option of Halbred, for 12 points. Illithmar armor in addition to Light armor (Illithmar armor gives +1 A.S to all ranged attacks -they still get wounded by the bucket load, but at least can get to combat to intact.

Archers -shave off 2 points and add A.P and Light armor for free, and the ability to upgrade for no move or shoot penalty +1 and you can call it even.

Spearmen -cut a point give illithmar armor.

Heroes and Lords - all lowered in points and or given a special rule to help deployment or pre-game tactics to represent "elite nature" or the army, while all hero casters channel dispel dice on a +4 and power die on a +5.

Dragons -lowered in points, give a bit higher I, give an additional special rule that gives a ward that ignores wounding hits that are allocated per shooting (including magic) on +4 until failed (perhaps due to scaley skin or "ancient knowledge of the world terrain etc. . .".

Lastly, the book's faults in SoA, Teclis and BoH won't change much. H.E's need ASF to help offset the tolls that 8th ed. has wracked them with. Frankly, even with SoA they are still over priced in almost every category save for specials at which point as a designer one would have to come up with another army-wide rule to make up for SoA, which will be very hard to do indeed, if not possible without turn H.E into a doormat. The book currently is one of the most linear army books in Fantasy whether playing for fun or competitively with only 15 core, special, and rare choices. Being that almost all of those choices are few points overcosted, it will be interesting to see what happens and to see if H.E become the worst army in the game, or sitting pretty next to OnG and the like.

My personally opinion, you will see Teclis remain relatively the same, with maybe "no ignoring first miscast" and receiving a 10 point reduction as he is the most powerful caster in the Warhammer world save for Demons and the "unknown" Mazamundai/Kroak, his rules should reflect that as much. Tyrion and Alith Anar will be become relevant again, as Caradryan and Korhil will stay relatively the same while seeing the re-introduction of Imirk and Dragon Mages being eliminated, being replaced by a sp. charcter that is similar.

BoH may be redone, as well as the BoTWD and Vambraces. Banner of Sorcery may be increased, if it is no one will take it, though new items may help that very much.

New units will help and also gain focus as well, though if Phoniex's are anything like they are in the Arcana they will not be taken, as they are awful.

Edit: Also once Lord-level mounts for Nobles now. Dragons and Phoniex's etc. . .

ScytheSwathe
28-04-2012, 00:25
I think there's been a lot of overreacting from both camps here. Yes Teclis is too good, yes the book of hoeth is too good, you can expect both those to change considerably in time for the next book. The only other complete no brainer I can see is the great weapons on characters trick, but just ramping up the points fixes this.

Then what? Swordmasters and white lions are maybe a little extreme, phoenix guard are decidedly useful, and eagles are on the cheap side too. A bump of one or 2 points on the SM and WL would fix this, and maybe 10 points more for an eagle. Phoenix guard I think are reasonably priced in themselves, but by the time okkams or similar gets combined with the 4++ they get silly. Its the 4++ at fault here. Unbreakable would indeed be more in keeping with the fluff too.

The weaker end of the list we have archers who are just too expensive, and silver helms in the wrong slot. RBT need a drastic points rethink or template rather than multishot. Other than that theres no major balance issues that I can think of. I dont want a points drop on my spearmen, they are supposed to be elite, and a nice lore of magic could resolve mass frailty issues.

Speed of Asuryan is a rule I actually quite like, Itrepresents the elve's speed and skill which doesnt translate well from the I and WS mechanics to gameplay. Its a quirk which with step up and enemy hordes I dont think is over the top. In 6th I always felt it should allow striking in I order always, but now that is pretty much the case anyway, they needed the rerolls to counteract the other rules changes.

Wesser
28-04-2012, 08:58
Trains.... unless there are something you leave out like HE losing Speed of Asuryan I'm calling madness on that. Buffing across the board for an already strong army? Get out of here..

- No reason to lower spearmen. They are already superb for their cost. IN fact a price increase is in order.

- As for Ellyrion reavers you want them costed below even mounted squires. Ain't gonna happen dude. 18 pts is minimum... this aint fast cavalry edition.

- Combat Heroes with boosted GW's and rerolls to hit hardly need help either.

- Buffing the already absurdly powerful HE elites? And you specifically want to smooth over their few weaknesses leaving them to be terribly boring as well?

- DRagon Princes are undercosted for something with 2 attacks and reroll. You can get the the price cut you want if they lose an attack.



I'm with you on shadow warriors and silver helms. Rest is just ********.

Athlan na Dyr
28-04-2012, 10:27
Trains.... unless there are something you leave out like HE losing Speed of Asuryan I'm calling madness on that. Buffing across the board for an already strong army? Get out of here..
- No reason to lower spearmen. They are already superb for their cost. IN fact a price increase is in order.
- As for Ellyrion reavers you want them costed below even mounted squires. Ain't gonna happen dude. 18 pts is minimum... this aint fast cavalry edition.
- Combat Heroes with boosted GW's and rerolls to hit hardly need help either.
- Buffing the already absurdly powerful HE elites? And you specifically want to smooth over their few weaknesses leaving them to be terribly boring as well?
- DRagon Princes are undercosted for something with 2 attacks and reroll. You can get the the price cut you want if they lose an attack.
I'm with you on shadow warriors and silver helms. Rest is just ********.

disagree with the spearmen point, the combat heroes and the DP's, but I'll say yes to the rest. As to why
- Spearmen are still only T3, S3 and have LA with shield and require 50 (properly 60, but hey) to make the most of their attacks, the horde rule and their special rules, which is the better part of 500 points or more.
Throw magic into the equation and yes, they're great, but if you start costing things on what they could do with buff X, Y and Z then the Designer is pressuring the player into lore selection, it fails to account for dispelling/ poor magic rolls and it scales with point size and multiple units about as well as a flat line (terribly). Not to mention this opens up a whole can of worms on the costing of units with poor Initiative...
Furthermore, they are static due to spears and martial prowess not working when charging, meaning that a great blob of spears either
a)sits there as nothing bothers charging them and just shoots them instead or
b)charges in, losing all the advantages they pay for and get there **** handed to them by anything better than skeletons. Meaning either a Crown of Command/ spell granting stubborn is required or they run and die.
Neither being particularly good for a ~500 point unit
Now, yes smaller units than a proper horde could be taken, but then you're losing combat to any comparable unit that IS horded. Spearmen are far from a great unit for their points and heavily rely on shooting support to make the enemy come to you.
To cut a long story short, they have crappy survivability, decidedly meh damage and terrible versatility for 9 ppm. Give me ghouls anyday.

- Elven combat heroes (aside from being an oxymoron) are ridiculously fragile unless they are Dark Elves with a certain rage inducing (in the opponent) pendant or dump all of their points into defensive items. T3 and 4+ mundane armour on foot at best and in that case they can't hold a great weapon anyway. All elven combat heroes need some serious work done in the survivability department or the cost department. At the moment, even with 30 odd points going into wards and armour they generally won't last a round or two against decent opponents, meaning 50 odd points are needed to be sunk into defensive items, hampering their combat output immensely, meaning they're practically worthless to take (unless carrying the Battle Standard). The exception for High Elves is Caradryan and Korhil, the later to a lesser extent.


- Dragon Princes are still but S3 with lances for 30 odd points. In the age of steadfast, most lance wielding cavalry isn't great unless they're either monster hunters or Brettonians in a 6 rank strong lance formation with the front rank packed full of characters. These guys need some work or are relegated to the a very one dimensional role which RBT's should be doing anyway...

Von Wibble
28-04-2012, 12:27
Looking at detachments is kind of tricky, it's something you MAY use, instead of something that comes with the models you purchase, and if you look at the detachment rules, the detachments got significantly worse.

Your comparison to crossbowmen is slightlty off, they are 2 points less than archers (not 3) they are only Str 4 and have 6" less range and 1 less BS, they don't have AP, and worse leadership, sounds fair to me.

I play Empire, Bretonnia, and High Elves, looking at the differences between the 7th ed Empire and 8th ed Empire, then looking at 7th ed High Elves can kind of give you a direction in which new books are generally going.

You do realise high elf archers are range 30 as are crossbows, right? And crossbows have AP by definition, as it comes with S4. Basically S4 and the AP that comes with it are slighly better than S3. The WS and I are hardly of use (lets say detachment rules counter that as you get a free round of shooting, plus they also even out the LD since you get minimum Ld8 usually). That leaves the ability to move and fire. Conclusion, drop them to 10 per model and give them light armour as standard (I'd say on its own light armour is worth half a point) to be cmoparable with empire missile troops.

I agree the army should lose ASF in general, but should have a rule to help them defensively. How about enemy gains no stepping up attacks in the first round of combat - nicely represents the alpha strike but then the enemy can overpower you as the combat progresses. I'd say that ability is worth about the same as ASF was in 7th. I think units should not go down in points since HE are suppposed to be elite (with only WOC and DOC to compete on that front) - they should simply be worth their points.

If the Helblaster is anything to go by I would expect RBT to improve. Personally I think it should cost 100 points but be worth it. 3rd crew member, single shot to go to S8 and multishots gets 3 shots per rank of the enemy unit (no maximum!) - the multishot imo should be a large unit killer. Plus if anything is a discouragement to conga lines you have it right there :)

Swordmasters as already mentioned should strike first and keel the reroll. Maybe a 1 point increase bearing in mind the army special rule given.

White lions and Phoenix guard to stay as is - army rule counters loss of stepping up.

Spearmen to stay as is (I'd have said down 1 point but empoire infantr went up so I think as is is about right).

Silver helms to go to core and should cost about the same as an empire knight - worse save adn no inner circle option but higher I and M and army rule.

Shadow warriors to get a free volley against one enemy unit at the start of the battle, come with 2 hand weapons and cost 13 per model.

Dragon Princes down slightly (in line with other cavalry).

Handmaidens of the everqueen to be added as an elite LSG option (longbows, stats as elite elves).

High magic imo shuold be about cancelling enemy magical abilites and effects. Lore effect - each successful spell cast makes all models -1 to cast in the next magic phase(cumulative). Drain magic should return to remove all 6s from enemy cast attempts. Vaul's unmaking can remove an enemy wizard level or destroy a magic item. Because high magic implies mastery of all other forms I'd allow a high wizard to swap for any BRB lores signature spell, or have shield of saphery (though I wouldn't make it a ward save since phoenix guard get no benefit, I'd have it as -1 to be wounded to a minimum of 6+)

Book of Hoeth to be removed - I think High elves should get 15 or so magic items rather than 8-10 since thats' supposed to be one of their strengths. A list of champion only items and then a small list for others would eb fine though.

Bring back Balannear! With a model this time.

Not sure for new units. The way things are going a portable anvil of vaul buffmobile wouldn't surprise me. Drake riders cuold hapoen I suppose. I mentioned handmaidens above. Merwyrm from the storm of chaos expansion coud be possible. Unridden dragons to go in rare? Catapults? "Greek fire" throwers (I know globadiers have that role covered but maybe a coterie of weak mages could simulate that effect). who knows!

Bearing in mind my proposed change to army ability, high elf fighters to go down in points considerably. Problem here is that I think most fighty characters are hugely overcosted (in any edition book) - imo an empire captain for example is worth about 35 points, and I'd want a high elf noble to be 45 in line with that. But as the captain is more, the noble would be 70ish, the prince 100 (without asf I think he's worse than a grand master, the only real advantage being ld10, which can be dupicated by a banner, and no mount or armour either).

Nucl3arsnake
28-04-2012, 14:08
Its annoying that the majority of people think that just reducing the points is the way fix everything. That is not the point of playing high elves , you play high elves for the elite nature , not to have hordes of guys. I think the points on most units would be completely fine (id even be okay with a points raze on some of the units if the new rules justified it) if there rules were brought up to be usfull in the current edition.

theunwantedbeing
28-04-2012, 14:32
Its annoying that the majority of people think that just reducing the points is the way fix everything. That is not the point of playing high elves , you play high elves for the elite nature , not to have hordes of guys.
Most high elf players run hordes of guys though....


I think the points on most units would be completely fine (id even be okay with a points raze on some of the units if the new rules justified it) if there rules were brought up to be usfull in the current edition.
Bit of a nothing statement that, care to elaborate on it?

McBoner
28-04-2012, 14:51
I love threads like this. People always criticise The writers at GW for not writing decent rules but given the chance themselves, nobody can come up with anything more original than "make unit X cost 1pt more/less".

TheDungen
28-04-2012, 21:54
I've not once mentioned points costs, only rule changes, as for how those rule changes would affect points costs i realise that extensive play testing is required to determine that.

Hoshiyami
28-04-2012, 22:13
Sometimes, people see what they want to see. Sometimes don't see what they don't want to...

R Man
29-04-2012, 01:44
I love threads like this. People always criticise The writers at GW for not writing decent rules but given the chance themselves, nobody can come up with anything more original than "make unit X cost 1pt more/less".

Ever considered that a points change could be the best solution? As opposed to say, heaping on more Special Rules? Or stat escalation?

Athlan na Dyr
29-04-2012, 02:59
I love threads like this. People always criticise The writers at GW for not writing decent rules but given the chance themselves, nobody can come up with anything more original than "make unit X cost 1pt more/less".

Challenge Accepted!

Note: With a removal of SoA (ASF)

1. Spearmen/ LSG receive Heavy Armour as Standard. Archers start with no armour and can buy light for 1 ppm
2. Weapon Training. High Elves always benefit from the parry rule, regardless of armament or being mounted (note, flank charge still gets rid of it). For example, a unit of swordmasters would have a 5+, 6++ in combat if only engaged to the front. A unit of Dragon Princes would have a 2+, 6++ in the same situation and so on.
3. Lion Cloaks give +1 AS (+2 vs. shooting) and can be taken by characters as part of mundane equipment
4. RBT's gain a third crewman, Volley changed to D3 hits per rank of the enemy (D6 vs. hordes) at S4 for a slight points drop (of 5 to 10 points)
5. Swordmasters have ASF and Great Weapons (i.e. strike in initiative order) as well as MR (1)
6. Shadow Warriors receive AHW and strider
7. Silver Helms moved to core
8. Sea Guard have a Halberd Option
9. Phoenix Guard moved to rare, retain their 4++ and ASF.
10. All elven units may take a magic banner (core = 25 point limit, special/ rare = 50 points)
11. Archmages only ld 8
12. Dragons
- Sun Dragon: S3 breath weapon, 4+ scaly skin, +1 WS, +1 S to current, 210 to 230 points
- Moon Dragon: S4 breath weapon, 3+ scaly skin, +1 S, LVL 1 wizard (high magic or fire?), 300 to 330 points
- Star Dragon: S5 breath weapon, 2+ scaly skin, +1 S, LVL 2 wizard (still not sure of lore, maybe rulebook...), 400 points +
- I 4 for all
13. Dragons can be taken as rare (perhaps not star... :( )
14. Dragons can be taken as rare with a Dragon Prince on board for +15 or so points
15. Dragon Princes can ride on younger Dragons. maybe a S2 breath weapon, S5, barded, flyer, 3 wounds, I4, 3A, WS 4. Special
16. Lion chariot gains a point of toughness
17. Flying magic wagon, gives a buff to any unit within 6" depending on what lore of magic you align it to (pay to choose which one). In rare. Effects as follows:
- High: increase parry save by 1 (to a 5+)
- Fire: flaming attacks. If unit already has these, Multiple wounds (2)
- Life: Strider, regen (5+)
- Metal: +1 AS and the AP rule
- Beasts: +1 S
- Heavens: reroll ones to hit
- Light: ASF
- Shadow: Movement is doubled
- Death: For each wound inflicted by the unit, roll a D6. On a 6 a previously dead member of the unit is reutrned to life. Characters heal their own wounds.

Costing
Lords and Heroes
Princes start at 110 - 140
Archmage at 220. Option to take a wizards chamber (other kit with buffmobile). increases casting by +2 and grants loremaster. 150+ points
Noble at 60 - 70
Mage at 95
Dragon Mage 330

Core
Archers at 9 ppm, with LA at +1 ppm
Spearmen at 9 or 10 ppm
LSG (with Spear and Shield) at 10ppm. Bows at +1 ppm, Halberds at +2 ppm.
Silver Helms at 17 ppm. Barding at +2ppm. Shields at +2 ppm.
Ellyrion Reavers at 14 ppm (with LA). +2 for spear. + 2 for bow

Special
Sword Masters at 14 ppm
White Lions at 14 ppm
Dragon Princes at 27 ppm
Shadow Warriors at 14 ppm
Tiranoc Chariot at 75 ppm. Units of 1 to 3.
Drake Riders at 75 ppm. Units of 3+

Rare
Phoenix Guard at 14 ppm. Units of 5 to 30
Lion Chariot at 120 ppm. Units of 1 to 3
RBT at 90 ppm
Great Eagle at 50 ppm
Unridden Dragons at 210, 300 or 400 depending on level
Ridden Dragons at 210, 300 or 400 + 15 points. Unit of 1+
Buffmobile.

Magic Items
Big Sword of Smashing - ???
Armour of Resilience: Heavy Armour. Bearer can never be wounded on better than a 5+ unless due to a weapon effect (runefangs for example) - 35 points
Armour of Caledor: Heavy Armour. +1 Save, 2++ vs. Flaming attacks. 50 points
Temakador's Gauntlets: As now, but 4++ save vs. s4 or higher. 40 points
Banner of Sorcery: as now
Banner of the World Dragon: as now
Book of Hoeth: +2 Power Dice and +1 to cast. 100 points
Seerwood Staff: same as now. 25 points.

Rational:
- The combination of Heavy Armour on core units and the use of the parry rule was to add some defensive properties to the army as a whole, without a whole smack of special rule cluttering up the place. Also fits in with the whole 'well trained and elite' fluff wise. I felt this fitted better than say "fight in extra ranks" as I have seen presented earlier somewhere, due to the other rule requiring a ridiculous amount of ranks to be useful for hordes and therefore unsuited to a elite army (and imagine the target that would be painted on White Lions with fight in extra ranks. Dwellers Ahoy!). As such, High Elves would be the more defensive, yet still hitty Elves, Dark Elves the hitty and really fragile elves and Wood Elves could be the shooty and sneaky elves once they are finally done.

- Dragons I wanted to make a bit more powerful to represent their nature as ancient and deadly. The slight buffs were meant to represent this (and the I buffs to prevent a notorious Sun from wacking a 400 point Star Dragon) and were generally compensated with a price rise. The Sun Dragon was the exception to this due to its lower number of wounds and the damaging effects of step up and steadfast on modern monsters. The more slots that can now be allocated to dragons was to reinforce High Elves as the 'dragon army' and get some more of the beasties on the table. Fly my pretties!

- Indeed a lot of things were moved to rare, including the now staple of a buffmobile. This was done to force some choices in this slot for the HE player as well as accurately represent the commonality of certain troop types. This second reason is also why PG have a unit cap (though are cheaper to compensate somewhat for this and the rare slot).

- Focus of magic support, with magic banners bleeding out of the HE players wazoo. This and the buffmobile revolving around the winds is to show the high magic dependance of the HE force without hamstringing the player into using it.

- For combat heroes, I tried to make them more viable through cost, LD (you want ld 10? take a prince) and survivability (lion cloaks, parry and magic items).

Please bear in mind my prospective points costs are very rough and that these are just a collection of some ideas I've had.
Thoughts?

blake
29-04-2012, 03:11
Not to be a negative Nancy, but I pretty much disliked almost everything in the post after the words "Challenge Accepted!"

6 & 7 weren't bad.

Giving them always Parry is poop.

Taking away ASF, High Elves need to drop in cost by like .... a quarter or third or more. They already drop like flies, which is why 90% of all armies include either a huge block of WL's or PG.
15pt elites better be closer to 11, if they are just going to swing in, miss and then get mowed down.

Meh I dunno, I just dislike almost everything ya posted, but its my opinion only, its cool that you obviously love yer elfs! ;)

Athlan na Dyr
29-04-2012, 03:22
Eh, not a problem. The whole idea of posting it was to get some feedback, both negative and positive.
Indeed, would you mind giving a little more detail as to why you didn't like it (fluff, feels underwhelming for tabletop performance, don't know but it just doesn't sit right...)

Cheers for the reply

Shadoer
29-04-2012, 04:03
My own idea's

ASF - Toss it. Instead give all of the High Elves 1+ Initiative. That way they are still faster then their Elfy breathren, but loose their rerolls. As everyone else has said, leave it for Swordmasters. Lower cost army wide as a result.

White Lion Bodyguard - A new character. For an extra, say 90 points, any of your characters on foot can be paired with a White Lion Bodyguard character. This character would be given two attacks, two wounds, and a 5+ ward save. HOWEVER, so long as he is alive and place in base contact with his assigned character, the character he is defending is given a 2+ Ward Save (The bodyguard is protecting im) untill the White Lion Bodyguard is killed first. It's fluffy and it would give a real defense option for High Elf Mages and BattleStandards. His leadership can't be confered onto the unit.

Bolt Thrower. I wouldn't say a mortar template, but a small template might be a good solution for bolt throwers as opposed to just lowering the cost. It would make them more effective and give them some much needed umph.

Trains_Get_Robbed
29-04-2012, 04:15
Without SoA H.e are the second most expensive army in the game after W.e -although they are already sitting nearby Beastmen, W.e, and Brets.

SoA isn't even that great, and we already pay through the nose for it, even on troops we don't want it on (archers) we don't have a choice. Giving a parry save as opposed to ASF would change the entire play style, rational and just exacerbate the problem that H.e currently have: T3 A.S +5 = Dead.

Obviously H.e's best defense is a (wicked) offense, killing troops before they get to strike, however (again obviously) step-up has made that a moot point as we cannot limit the amount of incoming attacks with just a parry save. Sure we could limit miniscule amount of the damage we would receive, but without rerolls to hit in combat the few attacks we can "muster" won't really do the aforementioned attack back limiting that would be done if we kept SoA.

Now grant it, if you remove SoA I have no problem with that, but it needs to be replaced by another or (multiple) other special rules that will either: a. increase the amount of attacks (why are S.M the only infantry unit that has more than 1 attack a model?? Give me access to frenzy, 2 hand weapons, or if not those then S4! S3 doesn't kill anything.

Give H.e the "Martial Prowness" special rule with everything -to compensate for missing with attacks- in addition to a point drop and ++6 parry, then you might be on to something. Also, the only rare choice that would ever be taken would be the chariot-mobiles, as they have really dumb effects, nothing a Dragon or Rbt could replace.

Athlan na Dyr
29-04-2012, 05:02
Without SoA H.e are the second most expensive army in the game after W.e -although they are already sitting nearby Beastmen, W.e, and Brets.

SoA isn't even that great, and we already pay through the nose for it, even on troops we don't want it on (archers) we don't have a choice. Giving a parry save as opposed to ASF would change the entire play style, rational and just exacerbate the problem that H.e currently have: T3 A.S +5 = Dead.
The idea was to shift the play style back to the more defensive side, seeing as (I felt) the original intention of SoA in 7th was defensive rather than offensive. Continuing this sort of thinking, the Spearmen, Sea Guard and (in combat) White Lions all received an extra pip of armour save (so T3 and AS 4+). The parry rule was there to add some extra toughness without adding extra rules. Evidently thats still not enough...

Obviously H.e's best defense is a (wicked) offense, killing troops before they get to strike, however (again obviously) step-up has made that a moot point as we cannot limit the amount of incoming attacks with just a parry save. Sure we could limit miniscule amount of the damage we would receive, but without rerolls to hit in combat the few attacks we can "muster" won't really do the aforementioned attack back limiting that would be done if we kept SoA.

Now grant it, if you remove SoA I have no problem with that, but it needs to be replaced by another or (multiple) other special rules that will either: a. increase the amount of attacks (why are S.M the only infantry unit that has more than 1 attack a model?? Give me access to frenzy, 2 hand weapons, or if not those then S4! S3 doesn't kill anything.
I must admit I don't really see any HE units that would fit with frenzy. I did add in a S4 core option (LSG with Halberds)

Give H.e the "Martial Prowness" special rule with everything -to compensate for missing with attacks- in addition to a point drop and ++6 parry, then you might be on to something. Also, the only rare choice that would ever be taken would be the chariot-mobiles, as they have really dumb effects, nothing a Dragon or Rbt could replace.
Yeah... Chariot was something I made up without a great deal of thought seeing as there had been tentative rumours of some flying chariot and the recent releases of multiple buff mobiles. Just tried to put out a load of effects and hoped they weren't utterly ridiculous (seems I failed...).
As for the 'martial prowess', think how many ranks you would need to pull that off! That was my main reason for not doing it in the first place.


I need to go back to the drawing board methinks.

Von Wibble
29-04-2012, 10:42
I sadi it earlier in my wall of text, but any comments on replacing SoA with removal of enemy stepping up in the first round of combat? That would emphasise the idea of your troops killing some of his, and reducing the amount of strikes delivered back as a defense. They need something to justify high points cost (as they should have that points cost, being an elite dying race) but SoA has been vastly overpriced as these days thanks to stepping up it is only of use against small enemy units. Reroll helps of course but feels tacked on and too simlar to DE mechanic.

Torga_DW
29-04-2012, 21:39
the thing about speed of asuryan, is that it seems to me even in 8th armies tend to have army-wide special rules, or at least group-wide within the army, depending of course. a blanket statement, but still
here are some examples:

choppas on orcs, animosity overall
undead rule for tomb kings and vampire counts (obvious i know since they are actually undead, but still you see what i mean)
ogres getting impact hits on the charge

so without commenting on whether or not SoA is good or bad, gw may decide that they need an armywide rule or two still

just food for thought

Hoshiyami
29-04-2012, 23:04
So... as an army wide non-SoA rule... how about something like weapon mastercraft? Giving every HE weapon a +1 to wound would solve the str 3 problem the elves have.

With it archers would be useful even against T5 monsters, spearmen would be worth their points, etc... Not a choppa rule but something like it (it wouldn't affect AS but instead would work every turn), so... any thoughts?

Sinaris
30-04-2012, 02:10
Thanks to thr previous posts, somthing just occured to me that i hadn't seen suggested before(perhaps with good reason).

Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:

The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.

How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.

Other rules could flesh this out but, i think it might be an interesting rule to toy with and add somthing unique to the HE.

gdsora
30-04-2012, 02:45
Thanks to thr previous posts, somthing just occured to me that i hadn't seen suggested before(perhaps with good reason).

Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:

The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.

How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.

Other rules could flesh this out but, i think it might be an interesting rule to toy with and add somthing unique to the HE.

I cant imagine this ever happening.

to strong against armies with Low I values, and useless against armies with Good I

Sinaris
30-04-2012, 03:04
I cant imagine this ever happening.

to strong against armies with Low I values, and useless against armies with Good I

Sure, if that's the only rule change.

Lower I armies still have ranks and thus, steadfast, so it doesn't necessarily work exactly the same as 7th where you just break them off the table, they also have supporting attacks, and without the rerolls to hit, the HE aren't going to be wiping two ranks of enemies off every turn.

High/Higher I enemies are another ball game, but i return back to it not being the ONLY rule change.

gdsora
30-04-2012, 03:25
Sure, if that's the only rule change.

Lower I armies still have ranks and thus, steadfast, so it doesn't necessarily work exactly the same as 7th where you just break them off the table, they also have supporting attacks, and without the rerolls to hit, the HE aren't going to be wiping two ranks of enemies off every turn.

High/Higher I enemies are another ball game, but i return back to it not being the ONLY rule change.

I imagine a unit of spearmen being a horror to low I armies now. If they charge it they risk up to 4(5 if hoarded) ranks worth of attacks that can also reduce the attacks back to them
if they dont charge it still 3(4) ranks of attacks that can reduce the attacks back.

Sinaris
30-04-2012, 03:39
And still, High Elves would remain an expensive Elite Army, 500 points of Spear Elves SHOULD pose a threat, but saying that, also consume a chunk of the HE's list whilst maintaining the flaw of most hordes, being unwieldy with weaknesses to be exploited, ie, flanks, redirection, fed chaff, ignored etc. That horde still maintains T3 and there are many ranged elements which can reduce them to a bloody pulp upon the battlefield the same as it effects the current book.

One must remember, this is a Wishlist thread and no more, my own idea does not come where the entirety of the High Elf book remains the same with my one rule tacked on, but I do feel that it would restore the feel of 7th HE where ASF was put in place to allow the HE to compensate for their mediocre toughness and armor. The idea of High Elves being defensive does not have to entail massive armor and devastating war machines, and 7th HE with 7th RB captured that that in a simple yet elegant way.

High Elves. An ELITE Army. How should this be represented?

Few in number, unkillable with average to good damage output? Nope, I'd say that is Dwarf territory.
Few in number, do massive damage with low armor but make up for it in wounds? Ogres.
Lots of numbers... don't even need to say anymore, they're Elite and they're Elves, they are meant to me expensive and few in numbers.
Do good to excellent damage and minimize losses? I think THIS is what makes them elite, its mostly a question of HOW to make that represented in the 8th edition where rules like Step Up, Hordes and support attacks are present. Sure a ward save could be implemented but its hardly imaginative and i think my rule idea makes you pay for your survivability through fighting well than just having an extra save, although I am a fan of shield+spear=parry, higher toughness doesn't sit right, nor (to me) better armor saves.
This aspect I believe needs to be the first and foremost mechanic of the Army to be looked at, and from that point on rules adjusted as required.

snakezenn
30-04-2012, 05:23
Thanks to thr previous posts, somthing just occured to me that i hadn't seen suggested before(perhaps with good reason).

Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:

The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.

How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.

Other rules could flesh this out but, i think it might be an interesting rule to toy with and add somthing unique to the HE.

I like this, but i think maybe something along the lines of enemies being able to attack in one less rank than they normally can. For example a unit of spearman are attack but dark elf warriors that are 5 wide, the warriors would normally get 10 attacks however since the HE spearman have the SoA rule they only get 5 attacks since they attack in one rank. This would work against enemy hordes as well.

Sinaris
30-04-2012, 06:33
I like this, but i think maybe something along the lines of enemies being able to attack in one less rank than they normally can. For example a unit of spearman are attack but dark elf warriors that are 5 wide, the warriors would normally get 10 attacks however since the HE spearman have the SoA rule they only get 5 attacks since they attack in one rank. This would work against enemy hordes as well.

Ah, so you mean it to effect Supporting attacks instead of Step Up? That's a good option on minimizing casualties too, although a little on the linear side of things, at least, IMO. Two aspects from my version I like is:
A) Emphasis on Initiative stat. Its part of our expensive price, so its only right for it to have more function, that said, you could easily put that on your version of it too making for the same emphasis.
B) It is not linear, only by actually killing the enemy are you gaining the benefits of Speed of Asuryan.

Example:

20 Spear Elves(4 ranks of 5) are attacked by 30 Savage Orcs with 2 choppas. The Elves, with their higher Initiative go first, without re-rolls my dice rolls netted me 6 wounds all said and done with Warpaint ward save.
Savage Orcs get to strike back now(they, for simplicity are 6 ranks of 5) with four Savage Orcs, and my rolls netted me 5 Elves slain. 15 remain standing for the next turn.

We now change this with Swordmasters, 7 of them vs the same Orcs, slaying 7 in my test roll, giving 3 Orcs to return the favor, taking down 3 Elves, 4 are standing for the next turn.

Moral is, you kill more, you live more and decisive surgical strikes which I imagine to be the HE Battle Doctrine are essential to the survival of your armies.

snakezenn
30-04-2012, 06:43
Ah, so you mean it to effect Supporting attacks instead of Step Up? That's a good option on minimizing casualties too, although a little on the linear side of things, at least, IMO. Two aspects from my version I like is:
A) Emphasis on Initiative stat. Its part of our expensive price, so its only right for it to have more function, that said, you could easily put that on your version of it too making for the same emphasis.
B) It is not linear, only by actually killing the enemy are you gaining the benefits of Speed of Asuryan.

Example:

20 Spear Elves(4 ranks of 5) are attacked by 30 Savage Orcs with 2 choppas. The Elves, with their higher Initiative go first, without re-rolls my dice rolls netted me 6 wounds all said and done with Warpaint ward save.
Savage Orcs get to strike back now(they, for simplicity are 6 ranks of 5) with four Savage Orcs, and my rolls netted me 5 Elves slain. 15 remain standing for the next turn.

We now change this with Swordmasters, 7 of them vs the same Orcs, slaying 7 in my test roll, giving 3 Orcs to return the favor, taking down 3 Elves, 4 are standing for the next turn.

Moral is, you kill more, you live more and decisive surgical strikes which I imagine to be the HE Battle Doctrine are essential to the survival of your armies.

I totally get what you are saying, personally i think either way would be a nice addition instead of the current rule. Though i do think that if it was per guy killed then it should be a blanket rule not relying on initiative as the current SoA still gives always strike first against anyone.

Sinaris
30-04-2012, 10:51
I totally get what you are saying, personally i think either way would be a nice addition instead of the current rule. Though i do think that if it was per guy killed then it should be a blanket rule not relying on initiative as the current SoA still gives always strike first against anyone.

It would have to go on Initiative(at least my version) because we no longer have ASF, and higher I foes would strike before we do, thus not needing bodies to 'step up' when we strike back at them. To stop this effecting other great weapon units such as White Lions and Nobles/Princes, I would also have it that High Elves retain their 'always strike in initiative order regardless of weapon', with ASF available on Swordmasters and perhaps a banner/weapon etc in the available magical items armory. I may go on to make my own further adjustments to the current book based around this to give a broader look of how at least I envision the Asur.

knightwire
30-04-2012, 19:37
Perhaps SoA could be a rule like this:

The Elves of Ulthuan fight with great martial prowess, speed and tanacity.
As such the Elves resume their fighting posture before the lifeless bodies of their foes hit the ground.

How it plays, if the Elves have equal or higher(perhaps just higher) initiative, enemies slain do not gain the step up rule, this does not effect supporting attacks.


I like this.

Hitting first means nothing if the attacks/wounds back are not reduced in some way. This strikes a nice feel to High Elves.

TheDungen
30-04-2012, 23:25
I think people need to remember GW will not implement any rule to any army unless its simple. Even the parry rule is somewhat cumbersome if its even more cumbersome like ignoring a core rule they simply wont do it. Even if that means the army wont balance properly. Occams razor folks.

knightwire
01-05-2012, 00:00
I think people need to remember GW will not implement any rule to any army unless its simple. Even the parry rule is somewhat cumbersome if its even more cumbersome like ignoring a core rule they simply wont do it. Even if that means the army wont balance properly. Occams razor folks.

It's how 7th edition was played. Probably simple enough in this case. ;)

Petey
01-05-2012, 00:42
Just if the last five army books are anything to go by

2new Heroes

Core. Spearmen, Archers, Seaguard, Silverhelms.
Special. Swordsmasters, White Lions, Pheonix Guard, Shadow Warriors, Maiden Guard, Reavers, Chariots, Bolt Thrower, random Monster base unit (cav or inf but not both)
Rare. Dragon Princes. Units of Great Eagles. Dragons w/ rider (a la stegadon, etc), Centerpiece Waystone Thing

The heroes will keep ASF, the units probably wont (except Swordsmasters). Maiden Guard will probably be the same as Seaguard but gain a special rule (like stubborn). The silver helms will likely move back to core, though if they don't, we'll see them improve as a unit a lot and stay special. Citizen levy will probably stay in, and allow Elven core units to fight in an additional rank (for melee or shooting) and will cost a 1 pt premium. My prediction for standard HE spearman w/ light armor and shield (though I bet there will be an option for heavy armor) will be 6pt for the elf, nekkid +1pt for light armor, +1 for shield, +1 for spear, +1 for citizen levy. Archer will be 8pts, 9pts in armor.
I m guessing that seaguard will upgrade to longbows, or come down in cost to 11pts/model (maybe 12)

High Elves are a magical race, this means that either they'll get more magic items, or get teh standard 8-9 items with the ability to take common items more than once, or that they'll be able to buy (or have innately) the magic attacks special rule on their heroes (and perhaps, unit champions).
I would like to see, but I don't have high hopes for special rules based on province of origin for HE martial heroes, and special bonus to mages based on which lore of magic they use. Either way, dragons dragons dragons will be the order of the day when HE come out.

MooseOnTheLoose
01-05-2012, 01:06
Little to no tweaking of what we have now. I hope no flying chariot as that is just a sad idea, and always quite a poor concept

TheDungen
01-05-2012, 09:20
ideas arent bad Moose just the execusion of them, and the flying chariot was never confirmed for which elven race it was if i'm not mistaken.

BloodiedSword
01-05-2012, 11:53
They just need to have another go at solving the problem of "how do we make really fragile, expensive elite units that don't die so fast they're a liability". Adding ASF probably sounded like a viable idea at the time but I don't think it worked out the way they wanted it to.

I think it should come in the form of a fundamentally defensive ability, rather than offensive. I like Sinaris's suggestion of cancelling Step Up, though I'd suggest a more interactive alternative, with some unimaginative name like "impenetrable defence":

"High Elf models in the front rank may assume a defensive posture to parry and block with lightning speed. They sacrifice their attacks to reduce the attacks of a model in base contact to the front by the same number, although magical attacks may only be defended by models with magic attacks themselves"

Plays to the strengths of the spear in allowing more ranks, adds some tactical depth in deciding when to use it, and I just like the image of weak but incredibly fast elves being able to defend against strong, hulking monsters through sheer speed.

Engineer
01-05-2012, 12:48
How about a general rule for the elite armies like all elves are -1 to be hit in close combat. Or possible we give them a dodge, a 5++ close combat only save that is negated by magic weapons.

boli
01-05-2012, 13:18
Step up and Steadfast *needs* to stay; removing it as any HE ability will be *way* too powerful.

I've fought too many battles in 4th edition (my last edition before 8th) to understand the imense frustration of being charged... not being able to even hit back and then run away with such a negative deduction to the leadership test only snake eyes will mean I'll stand and fight.



High Elves suffer from the same problem as wood elves (my other elven army)... so fragile that if they do *not* strike first they die; and even if they strike first they could still loose so much of their unit to the press of numbers, like it or not the special units in generally die as quickly as the rank and file.


To be truth the best thing that could happen is synergy; it seems to be the way armies are progressing, but with a more high elf feel. perhaps HE lords could get Magical Inspiration "feats" which are shared with units within 6"; how powerful these feats are depends not only on his strength... but on that of their mount as well

So a Noble on foot could only spent 10 points in this...maybe giving +1Initiative to himself and units within 6"; but a Lord on a Dragon could spend 100 points on this and due to dragon the range increased to 18" giving all units underneath +2 Toughness 5+ magic resistance and ASF. You could fudge it in the lore and say HEs are magically linked to the magic of the world and each other often feeling each others emotions as if it were their own. blah blah blah.

Solonor
01-05-2012, 14:21
I think SoA reflects perfectly the High Elven feel so why change it? i could understand if they removed SoA from Archers and Mages, but for the rest of the HE units it works perfectly. Most of the suggestions to replace SoA focus on the defensive side (eliminating Step up, attacks or giving a ward save or -1 to hit), although they are interesting and good suggestions, they wont replace the effects of SoA gives to the HE. i dont want units that dont loose many models but cant also deal enough damage in HtH Combat (if i wanted that i would play Dwarves), besides even with rerolls, one of our heavy infantry elites and all our core arent well known for their killiness, only swords and lions are well known and feared for that, and its them that, for me, represent how the Asur should function, fragile but will probalby take 1,5, 2 or 3 enemies for each elf that falls in hth combat. For the defensive feel we already have Phoenix Guard.
I think that SoA causes so much fuss because of two reasons, in game nobody likes to be kicked pretty hard even if they win combat, and that what you will get when facing Asur Elites you may make your way through that sword or lion unit but you know that you will be in bad shape when you finish (unless your a goblin or skaven player with all those bodies). the other reason is the fluff, i understand that its hard to explain why an elf with a two handed axe is faster then a Vampire lord or charging lance knight, but its not that unreasonable, because its the fighting formations and training techniques allied with the natural agility of the elves that justify that game mechanic.

for the changes that i would like in the Asur to keep in the theme of high elite expensive fragile force (i dont mention point cost but they woul remain the same or higher, except for shadow warriors and reavers that do deserve a point reduction)

Archers (remove SoA, give them light armour standart, no long range penalty (the removal of SoA to make spearelves more competitive, in the current meta archers are almost has good in hth combat and can for 2 point more fire at 30")

spearelves (their long shields give them + 1 against missile fire and in the round they are charged) this complements their defensive support role

Lothern seaguard (+1 WS and +1 BS) - they should be the elite of the militia. mantain the curent options, BS 5 allows them to bem much more offensive, advancing and still shoot with some accuracy

RBT - maintain their cost and give them lothern seaguard crew (perhaps 3 of them or mantain 2) the +1 BS will make them more accurate but they will still be fragile

Swordmasters - they should remain fragile to missile fire (so no -1 parry saves) i would give them ws 7 and init 7, and perhaps to help them with hordes (when fighting hordes swordmasters negate one rank of step up attacks).

White lions - pretty good no changes

Phoenix Guard - i know that perhaps its to much, but i always imagined phoenix guard being holy elves that channel their gods power so would give them MR 1 and magical attacks standart besides their "normal rules". i dont agree with the opinion that they should be unbreakable, they know when they are going to die but that doesnt mean they know the specifics, and the fact that i know i will die in a specific day or battle doesnt mean im not afraid.

have lots of other ideas but dont want to make a huge post

madival
01-05-2012, 14:46
1)I would like to see the army lose ASF. They have high I, so you dont really need much ASF. Sword masters should strike at I with great weapons. ASF means they reroll against most people. I run across horde sword masters and they kill an impressive 24 grave guard. I have no choice but to weasel my way around them in some form because they hit so hard and fast.
2) fix teclis. I have beaten him and book of Hoeth archmages before, but they are so boring to play against. It seems all tactfullness is thrown out the window when you play against these guys. They cast what they want and dont care about the rest. I have sat there whole magic phases and just twiddled my thumbs as I could do NOTHING against him. Make IF an option, but allow miscasts from it. HE players choice.
3)Seaguard need something more, something special. maybe stubborn?

knightwire
01-05-2012, 20:04
Step up and Steadfast *needs* to stay; removing it as any HE ability will be *way* too powerful.


I didn't seeing anyone advocating the removal of Steadfast. Just 'stepping up'. Enemy units still get Steadfast and still get Support attacks. It's hardly too powerful when HE Infantry are all T3 and a top AS of 5+. (Except PG of course)


I think SoA reflects perfectly the High Elven feel so why change it?

It was created in 7th addition and fit there to let the HE defend themselves with offiensive skill. That went away in 8th with 'stepping up' and is not now an effective mechanism for high priced standard troops.

MooseOnTheLoose
01-05-2012, 20:35
ideas arent bad Moose just the execusion of them, and the flying chariot was never confirmed for which elven race it was if i'm not mistaken.

I am not suggesting ideas are bad. I am saying lets not tweak like crazy an army book which is neither low or high on power outside one 1 named character. In terms of flying chariots in general, they are just a uncreative idea that when put into model form or even art concept come out poor in comparison. Some ideas are simply well not creative/destroy something already contained in the list. Some of these are White Lion Calvary, these are already Dragon Princes unless one is thinking literally a White Lion riding a White Lion which isn't going too be taken compared to Dragon Princes. Almost likewise is the idea of Drake Riders, a combination of Dragons are rare could be removed from fluff, wouldn't be the first time or the last, however now they compete with Eagles directly. Then how strong are they? Do they make griffons look sad even with a superior warrior riding? How about Dragons themselves?

Considering how fleshed out each province is and how well the background is established, look for things that can slide into place easier IMO. Chrace and Caledor kinda got the more options from the last release, while the starter set and additional wave kinda fleshed out all the provinces for what is current. I think the two spots where they may find more options to do much like they did with the Lion chariot is in the Shadowlands and within the Seaguard. I look to something being added that is used "predominately in the Shadowlands" against the never ending assaults of the Dark Elf, or possibly something that is used at the Gates to the inner kingdom.

The Low King
01-05-2012, 20:59
High elves are just as vulnerable as the rest of the elves, Humans of any kind, Skaven, Goblins and less vulnerable than skinks. dwarfs (and other stuff) +1 Toughness isnt that much of an improvement, maybe reducing damage taken by 30% at the best of times.

High elves should keep their glass cannon status.

knightwire
01-05-2012, 21:54
High elves are not just as cheap as the rest of the elves, Humans of any kind, Skaven, Goblins...

Fixed it for you. :)

Wood Elf Glade Guard excluded of course, but then again Wood elves are more humped in 8th and should have be redone first anyways.
You didn't really just compare elves to skinks and dwarves right? :wtf:

Solonor
01-05-2012, 23:38
It was created in 7th addition and fit there to let the HE defend themselves with offiensive skill. That went away in 8th with 'stepping up' and is not now an effective mechanism for high priced standard troops.

Yes i know and i agree that the step up rule made SoA a little different to what it was in 7th, i also believe that the reroll mechanism introduced in 8Th to ASF was made so that SoA would still grant some edge to HE troops (more garanteed kills). im not saying that no changes should be made, but i still consider elven Infantry elites to be extremely good, and although i know that we live in the edition of "everybody uses hordes or big steadyfast blocks", there will still be some fights when the damage you do will reduce the incoming blows you receive. For me taking away SoA in its current form wouldnt be the best solution.

Sinaris
02-05-2012, 04:58
Guarenteed kills are fine, but it doesnt embody being a High Elf. It could be disputed, bur most would agree that for the most part High elves are killy enough, even without rerolls, what doesnt make sense is these elite super warriors who are FEW in numbers, and unnaturally fast to dish out damage and then be slain for their efforts. Other armies are super killy and offset it with toughness, armor or numbers, none of these suit elves(not just high elves) at all, and i feel that my idea is far more elegant than say a ward save as that insinuates a level of toughness/invulnerability to the elves in question, my solution still means that when the elves get hit, they go down. Of course i would put other rules in place too, and i am in the process of writing my own 8th edition list which i will show here, but it does involve some higher WS, fight in initiative, a parry save for spear/shield, SOA only being on certain units.

My project sees the Asur as a fast, mobile army, capable of striking fairly hard at weak places of the enemies lines with an emphasis on self preservation. The bulk of the army will be its citizen levy bolstered by the elite special and hardened further with a powerful rare selection.

R Man
02-05-2012, 06:34
Would a pre-battle movement be a consideration? Like a free vanguard move, but for infantry? Or perhaps new charge reactions? Perhaps elves being charged can gain a free pre-combat reform, if they pass a Leadership test of course.

boli
02-05-2012, 09:57
I didn't seeing anyone advocating the removal of Steadfast. Just 'stepping up'. Enemy units still get Steadfast and still get Support attacks. It's hardly too powerful when HE Infantry are all T3 and a top AS of 5+. (Except PG of course)

Step-up is in my view the best rule added to 8th; it allows slower enemies actually able to deal damage; consider 14 swordsmen vs 50 clanrats (in 5x10). on average 18 attacks will hit dealing 12 deaths (if the CR have shields.)

4 rounds of combat and dead CR unit... swordsmen take zero casualties as not even supporting attacks could be made; a completly one-sided combat for units of similar points value (210 vs 225); yes the CR will be able to tarpit for those 4 rounds but the combat is so one-sided it just won't matter. With step-up CR will kill 1.6 for every 12 deaths they themselves receive and whilst the combat will generally resolve in favour of the HE swordmasters but they will loose half their unit in the process.

Is it fair that the SMs took damage?... well yes they are at war/battle you've gotta expect casualties; without steadfast the CR woudl have broken the first turn as well. Having HEs a special rule to ignore step-up and/or supporting attacks will rediculously one-side every HE combat resolution a couple of powerful units could attack decimate pretty much anything and charge the next unit without casualties.


Quick reform on being charged however is very High Elf, advanced training and experiance will mean they'll never get flanked at least not initially; a reroll on to-hit rolls should only be included on the elite units however; a high elves initiative means they are generally strikeing first anyways.

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-05-2012, 12:46
I don't see how H.E are anymore "killy" than any other race. The max amount of attacks we can obtain in the army is 2 (with S.M or D.Ps), and on average with a 7x3 W.L unit your going to get what 10 Wounds before saves fro example against something that most likley has many more wounds, strength and attacks and will hit back just as hard because all you need is a stiff breeze to hit back and kill a 15 point elf.

We pay through the nose for ASF more than it's worth, and my opponents/fourms/gamers still complain that ASF is "broken" even after they try elves lol. I'll never forget the day my friend Garret wanted to play a game, so I gave him a semi-meta P.G list, and got a noob to run his T.K list that I had just beat into the ground. . . only to be curbstomped into the ground. He hasn't mocked ASF since, hasn't pipped about H.E being "overpowred" -if that isn't hilarious I don't know what is.

I would rather have T4 S4 over W.S 4/5 I5 as I'm not reliant on magic as much. Grant it, I love playing H.E, I chose them because they are heavily invested in the magic phase, but without magic, H.E frankly suck. *Not many armies (T.K maybe Beastmen and L.M) can reliably say that if they have a single poor magic phase they will lose the game. Ogres, WoC, etc. . . there's not a ton finesse involved, if G.W can just turn down the skill meter so my H.E aren't playing on Veteran (a honorable nod goes to T.K and W.E players playing on Insane mode*), by: costing units appropriately, providing ample synergy among units, as well as choices, also providing a menagerie of weaponry for our basic core troop (for example LSG with Halberds at 12 points and +5 ++4 against shooting, could be justified currently), as well making proficient magic items/assortments then I think there would be less whining from both sides.

Edit: This isn't hyperbole, it's exaggeration on some parts (really Hypebole is word of the week), regardless the F's I give are still around zero.

R Man
02-05-2012, 13:20
Trains, I think HE are considered 'killy' because they have very accurate, high strength attacks. White Lions may have only 1 attack, but they hit most troops something like 8/9 times, or so. At S6, that's nasty. Also, ASF was created for a purpose, so HE could get their valuable attacks in while being charged. Obviously this is no longer relevant, so the rule should at least be reconsidered. In addition, High Elves are very lopsided. They are very good in close combat, but die to even light missile fire. Swordmasters blend hordes of 'ard orcs and the like, but die like sheep to a bunch hicks with bows. How do you balance that? In addition there are several problems with other factors of the army, such as the structure of the army list.

I guess the point is that ASF is hard to judge in effectiveness. It makes HE very killy, but fails to achieve its purpose. As a result elven armies are very frail and vulnerable. Most people who say to drop it, also want to increase HE resilience, so they are less vulnerable to things like shooting, magic or even bad luck.

BloodiedSword
02-05-2012, 13:58
Guarenteed kills are fine, but it doesnt embody being a High Elf. It could be disputed, bur most would agree that for the most part High elves are killy enough, even without rerolls, what doesnt make sense is these elite super warriors who are FEW in numbers, and unnaturally fast to dish out damage and then be slain for their efforts. Other armies are super killy and offset it with toughness, armor or numbers, none of these suit elves(not just high elves) at all, and i feel that my idea is far more elegant than say a ward save as that insinuates a level of toughness/invulnerability to the elves in question, my solution still means that when the elves get hit, they go down. Of course i would put other rules in place too, and i am in the process of writing my own 8th edition list which i will show here, but it does involve some higher WS, fight in initiative, a parry save for spear/shield, SOA only being on certain units.

My project sees the Asur as a fast, mobile army, capable of striking fairly hard at weak places of the enemies lines with an emphasis on self preservation. The bulk of the army will be its citizen levy bolstered by the elite special and hardened further with a powerful rare selection.

Yeah, essentially the problem with any special rule that attempts to make HE elite by increasing offensive abilities runs into the problem that to be balanced, they are necessarily weak in defence - turning every battle into a brutal bloodbath of slaughter, which pretty much goes against all the background of HE wanting to maintain their dwindling numbers.

IMO a purely defensive ability is the way to go.

The Low King
02-05-2012, 14:17
Fixed it for you. :)

Wood Elf Glade Guard excluded of course, but then again Wood elves are more humped in 8th and should have be redone first anyways.
You didn't really just compare elves to skinks and dwarves right? :wtf:

Other elves arent as killy as high elves therefore are not as expensive. (Also, its Dwarfs not Dwarves.)

Comparing their surviability to dwarfs:

Lets assume a S5 enemy striking at WS5 (so opposing elites)

VS the elves they will hit on 4s, wound on 2s and there will be no armour save.
VS the dwarfs they will hit on 4s, wound on 3s and there will be no armour save.

So, assuming 100 attacks (for statistics sake);

Elves take 100x(1/2)x(5/6)= 42 casualties
Dwarfs take 100x(1/2)x(2/3)= 33 casulaties

So the elves take roughly 25% more casualties, not a massive difference (about 1 casualty in your normal combat)



I don't see how H.E are anymore "killy" than any other race. The max amount of attacks we can obtain in the army is 2 (with S.M or D.Ps), and on average with a 7x3 W.L unit your going to get what 10 Wounds before saves fro example against something that most likley has many more wounds, strength and attacks and will hit back just as hard because all you need is a stiff breeze to hit back and kill a 15 point elf. .

lets see:

White Lions:
14 attacks, hitting on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 2s. approx 12 hits. Thats 10 wounds. -3 to save means anything other than knights or Chaos warriors/ironbreakers with shields will have no save.

Dwarf hammerers (most killy unit in the dwarf army):
14 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. approx 9 hits. Thats 7.5 wounds. -3 to save.


Putting the stats i just worked out together.

The White Lions take 25% more casualties than the Hammerers but deal 30% more damage.
Both are stubborn (i believe..)
WL have higher Movement, Initiative and both have similar rules.
The WLs also have the advantage of ASF wich means that in small combats (or even protracted combats) the WLs will have a massive advantage (can reduce attacks back).

For example, a horde of each fighting eachother (lets say 30 vs 40 to keep the costs balanced); the WLs will kill just 19 Hammerers before they can strike. In return the hammerers, now with reduced attacks, will kill roughly 9 WLs. Next round there are 8 hammerers left (13 died) and they kill much less. The combat finishes with ~15 WLs left and no hammerers, from equal pointed units.




Also, something to note. The Dwarfs are supposedly dieing out just as much as the elves.

BloodiedSword
02-05-2012, 16:21
Also, something to note. The Dwarfs are supposedly dieing out just as much as the elves.

But dwarfs don't whine about it nearly as hard, so no-one notices or really cares :)

knightwire
02-05-2012, 16:24
Step-up is in my view the best rule added to 8th; it allows slower enemies actually able to deal damage; consider 14 swordsmen vs 50 clanrats (in 5x10). on average 18 attacks will hit dealing 12 deaths (if the CR have shields.)

This isn't a general Step-up hate idea. I love Step-up as well, but it's particularly hard on Wood Elves and High Elves because of the high model cost for normal vulneralbility situtation. I usually hate the descent into math hammer, but you're not understanding the suggestion.


4 rounds of combat and dead CR unit... swordsmen take zero casualties as not even supporting attacks could be made; a completly one-sided combat for units of similar points value (210 vs 225); yes the CR will be able to tarpit for those 4 rounds but the combat is so one-sided it just won't matter. With step-up CR will kill 1.6 for every 12 deaths they themselves receive and whilst the combat will generally resolve in favour of the HE swordmasters but they will loose half their unit in the process.

Step-up represents the enemy unit refilling the front rank of models to gain back the models full attacks. Support attacks are a made by a model directly behind those in combat contact. In your hypothetical the CR unit would ALWAYS get attacks back in the form of Supporting attacks. So redo your scenario of SM against this CR horde and now count the single attacks from the second, third and (if they have spears) forth row.

Also I think you need to do this exact same combat with the rules as they exist now. Let's compare the results.



Is it fair that the SMs took damage?... well yes they are at war/battle you've gotta expect casualties; without steadfast the CR woudl have broken the first turn as well. Having HEs a special rule to ignore step-up and/or supporting attacks will rediculously one-side every HE combat resolution a couple of powerful units could attack decimate pretty much anything and charge the next unit without casualties.

That would be rediculous, but it doesn't have anything to do with what was proposed. :)


Quick reform on being charged however is very High Elf, advanced training and experiance will mean they'll never get flanked at least not initially; a reroll on to-hit rolls should only be included on the elite units however; a high elves initiative means they are generally strikeing first anyways.

Yes, this is also very High Elf.

Petey
02-05-2012, 21:50
Other elves arent as killy as high elves therefore are not as expensive. (Also, its Dwarfs not Dwarves.)

No, both Dwarfs and Dwarves are correct, just as armour and armor are both correct. One spelling comes from British English the other from American English. The rule for usage in this case is consistency, if one uses the British spelling they must use it throughout the document, and vice verse.


Comparing their surviability to dwarfs:

Lets assume a S5 enemy striking at WS5 (so opposing elites)

VS the elves they will hit on 4s, wound on 2s and there will be no armour save.
VS the dwarfs they will hit on 4s, wound on 3s and there will be no armour save.

So, assuming 100 attacks (for statistics sake);

Elves take 100x(1/2)x(5/6)= 42 casualties
Dwarfs take 100x(1/2)x(2/3)= 33 casulaties

So the elves take roughly 25% more casualties, not a massive difference (about 1 casualty in your normal combat)




lets see:

White Lions:
14 attacks, hitting on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 2s. approx 12 hits. Thats 10 wounds. -3 to save means anything other than knights or Chaos warriors/ironbreakers with shields will have no save.

Dwarf hammerers (most killy unit in the dwarf army):
14 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. approx 9 hits. Thats 7.5 wounds. -3 to save.


Putting the stats i just worked out together.

The White Lions take 25% more casualties than the Hammerers but deal 30% more damage.
Both are stubborn (i believe..)
WL have higher Movement, Initiative and both have similar rules.
The WLs also have the advantage of ASF wich means that in small combats (or even protracted combats) the WLs will have a massive advantage (can reduce attacks back).

For example, a horde of each fighting eachother (lets say 30 vs 40 to keep the costs balanced); the WLs will kill just 19 Hammerers before they can strike. In return the hammerers, now with reduced attacks, will kill roughly 9 WLs. Next round there are 8 hammerers left (13 died) and they kill much less. The combat finishes with ~15 WLs left and no hammerers, from equal pointed units.

Your math is correct, except that it doesn't take into account the shooting each elite unit suffered through to get to the combat in question, T3 is significantly worse at dealing with softening fire than t4, even with the armor save buff on the elves. Additionally, by army design, the Dwarves will have more warmachines (for cheaper) than the elves currently, and their shooting much more telling with small arms. Though I'm totally on board with your point that elves are indeed more killy than other races.





Also, something to note. The Dwarfs are supposedly dieing out just as much as the elves.

They don't release a census. Elves and dwarves aren't dying out. Here's why. The Dark Elf and Wood elf populations seem stable, yet the wood elves live a more primative lifestyle with less medical tech than their High cousins, and the dark elves live in a horribly vicious (see renaissance italy) society of duels and one upsmanship where they kill each other daily. The High Elves are just Emo and like to pretend that their lives are worse than they are, while believing that they're superior to everyone else in the world, who doesn't see just how awesome they are. Meanwhile the Dwarves are prone to exaggeration and complaining (like grandpa), about how things were more awesome back in the day, ya know, when they partied with elves all the time, had to be bailed out by humans against the orcs, and warred with eachother over pointless grudges. Yeah, things are certainly awful for the dwarves in comparison. They only get the backing of the most powerful nation on the continent, with the largest friendly boarder of any two sovereign people, with one of the greatest seaports/trading hubs in the world. And they totally don't have awesome technology, which lets them build ironclads and submarines, cannons, trains, and helicopters... wait... no... they have all those things.

Basically Dwarves are stupid. They can't see how good they have it, nor do they use it as effectively as humans would. And High Elves are sappy bitches who need to get over themselves and actually do some good in the world rather than talk about what their grand dads for everyone and how they should be recognized for that.

R Man
02-05-2012, 23:06
Originally Posted by The Low King
Comparing their surviability to dwarfs:

Lets assume a S5 enemy striking at WS5 (so opposing elites)

VS the elves they will hit on 4s, wound on 2s and there will be no armour save.
VS the dwarfs they will hit on 4s, wound on 3s and there will be no armour save.

So, assuming 100 attacks (for statistics sake);

Elves take 100x(1/2)x(5/6)= 42 casualties
Dwarfs take 100x(1/2)x(2/3)= 33 casulaties

So the elves take roughly 25% more casualties, not a massive difference (about 1 casualty in your normal combat)



lets see:

White Lions:
14 attacks, hitting on 3s with rerolls, wounding on 2s. approx 12 hits. Thats 10 wounds. -3 to save means anything other than knights or Chaos warriors/ironbreakers with shields will have no save.

Dwarf hammerers (most killy unit in the dwarf army):
14 attacks, hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s. approx 9 hits. Thats 7.5 wounds. -3 to save.


Putting the stats i just worked out together.

The White Lions take 25% more casualties than the Hammerers but deal 30% more damage.
Both are stubborn (i believe..)
WL have higher Movement, Initiative and both have similar rules.
The WLs also have the advantage of ASF wich means that in small combats (or even protracted combats) the WLs will have a massive advantage (can reduce attacks back).

For example, a horde of each fighting eachother (lets say 30 vs 40 to keep the costs balanced); the WLs will kill just 19 Hammerers before they can strike. In return the hammerers, now with reduced attacks, will kill roughly 9 WLs. Next round there are 8 hammerers left (13 died) and they kill much less. The combat finishes with ~15 WLs left and no hammerers, from equal pointed units.

Your math is correct, except that it doesn't take into account the shooting each elite unit suffered through to get to the combat in question, T3 is significantly worse at dealing with softening fire than t4, even with the armor save buff on the elves. Additionally, by army design, the Dwarves will have more warmachines (for cheaper) than the elves currently, and their shooting much more telling with small arms. Though I'm totally on board with your point that elves are indeed more killy than other races.

I'd also like to point out that, if we talk about the basic units, then for equal points the Dwarves can take shields, which will give a parry save if the attacks come in combat. Therefore the Dwarves would have a 6/6 save. This would cut casualties by about 10, down to 23. This means that, for equal points (Spear elves and Warriors) the Elves take considerably more casualties. Almost double. This is with the two cheapest units in their respective books. Can ASF really make up such a difference in defence?

snakezenn
02-05-2012, 23:16
Just an idea(could be horrible) what about SoA being something like any enemies with equal or lowere initiative have to reroll successful hits as well as providing a 5 or 6+ ward save against BS shooting?

The Low King
03-05-2012, 00:09
No, both Dwarfs and Dwarves are correct, just as armour and armor are both correct. One spelling comes from British English the other from American English. The rule for usage in this case is consistency, if one uses the British spelling they must use it throughout the document, and vice verse.

Actually, Dwarves are the ones in the Tolkien Universe whilst Dwarfs are the ones in the Warhammer Universe. Tolkien choose the name Dwarves to differentiate them from the Dwarfs of Mythology. GW stuck with the original spelling, it is how its spelt on the Army book.


I'd also like to point out that, if we talk about the basic units, then for equal points the Dwarves can take shields, which will give a parry save if the attacks come in combat. Therefore the Dwarves would have a 6/6 save. This would cut casualties by about 10, down to 23. This means that, for equal points (Spear elves and Warriors) the Elves take considerably more casualties. Almost double. This is with the two cheapest units in their respective books. Can ASF really make up such a difference in defence?

My maths was comparing two elite units fighting eachother, basic dwarf warriors are significantly less killy than hammerers, being S3 rather than S6.

Basic dwarf warriors with shields are T4 with a 4+/6++ save and S3 hand weapons.
Basic elf spearelves are T3 with a 5+ save (i believe), spears and their special rules.

Thus, a unit of dwarfs in ranks of five will have 10 S3 WS4 attacks whilst the unit of elves in the same formation will have 20 S3 WS4 (with rerolls) attacks.

So, a unit of Spearelves is much more vulnerable but at the same time does over 200% of the damage.

100 dwarf warrior attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 25 wounds
200 Spearelf attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 75 wounds

three times the damage for two units that are the same size.

Hoshiyami
03-05-2012, 00:56
So, a unit of Spearelves is much more vulnerable but at the same time does over 200% of the damage.

100 dwarf warrior attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 25 wounds
200 Spearelf attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 75 wounds

three times the damage for two units that are the same size.

Bear in mind you're optimizing the elven potential (4 rows, fighting no ASF/init>5 troop). Just as an example, 20 dwarfes could be in 7x3 (-1) formation, having 14 attacks. Also, the damage output of the dwarfs would be optimized with great weapons, but maybe their role as basic troops would be just to resist damage before another unit charges in... the elves don't have that option and their killiness (in their S3 spearmen) isn't something to be proud against good T/AS troops/characters/monsters.

The Low King
03-05-2012, 01:03
Bear in mind you're optimizing the elven potential (4 rows, fighting no ASF/init>5 troop). Just as an example, 20 dwarfes could be in 7x3 (-1) formation, having 14 attacks. Also, the damage output of the dwarfs would be optimized with great weapons, but maybe their role as basic troops would be just to resist damage before another unit charges in... the elves don't have that option and their killiness (in their S3 spearmen) isn't something to be proud against good T/AS troops/characters/monsters.

The elves could be in a 7x4 formation, giving them 28 attacks, thats why i was comparing them in equal ranked units. Why would you not optimise the spearelves? sureley you would have them in at least 4 ranks.....

if they have GWs they dont have a 4+/6++ save as you were suggesting. In fact, if they have GWs then just use the example using hammerers i posted before. The elves have GW troops, they just dont have spearelves with GWs.

R Man
03-05-2012, 01:14
My maths was comparing two elite units fighting eachother, basic dwarf warriors are significantly less killy than hammerers, being S3 rather than S6.

Basic dwarf warriors with shields are T4 with a 4+/6++ save and S3 hand weapons.
Basic elf spearelves are T3 with a 5+ save (i believe), spears and their special rules.

Thus, a unit of dwarfs in ranks of five will have 10 S3 WS4 attacks whilst the unit of elves in the same formation will have 20 S3 WS4 (with rerolls) attacks.

So, a unit of Spearelves is much more vulnerable but at the same time does over 200% of the damage.

100 dwarf warrior attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 25 wounds
200 Spearelf attacks vs T3, WS4 no AS: 75 wounds

three times the damage for two units that are the same size.


I am aware. The issue is that as most units go up in price, so does their defence. Chaos Warriors, for example, are very expensive, but have T4 and Chaos Armour to mitigate damage. Not to mention having effective chaff units to help absorb damage/protect flanks. Lizardmen too have expensive infantry, but Saurus have good defence and plenty of cheap and effective shooting (skinks, salamanders) and magic. Elves do have good magic though.

As for your stats, yes, elven offence is very good. And I'm not saying it isn't. But I'm not sure if accounting for it in this way is appropriate. Those numbers are not the most effective way of showing unit fighting strength. After all, realistically units have limits to how many can attack, and comparing a number against a different number doesn't show how units actually fight, as retaliation is an important . So lets take two units of 25, one of Spear-Elves, one Dwarf Warriors. Elves will get 20 attacks, dwarfs 10, so it keeps the scale even. Against Chaos Warriors (15) the elves will kill 1. Chaos kills 6 elves. Chaos then kills 3 Dwarves, who kill none. The Dwarves actually do better, and will last longer. Now, obviously this isn't exactly fair, Chaos Warriors excel, and elves struggle with defence, but we can now apply some context. Dwarves will most likely apply missile fire to the Warriors, which the elves don't match in calibre. The Dwarves can reliably hold the warriors, while the elves evaporate far too quickly. In three combat rounds the Dwarves will still be mostly intact (3 ranks, still steadfast), the elves will be decimated. In addition, and this is critical, the Elves offensive power would start dropping almost immediately, rendering that ASF much less valuble, which is what they 'traded' their defence for in the first place!

Hoshiyami
03-05-2012, 01:22
The elves could be in a 7x4 formation, giving them 28 attacks, thats why i was comparing them in equal ranked units. Why would you not optimise the spearelves? sureley you would have them in at least 4 ranks.....


You wouldn't do it if you had 20 just elves. I said 7x3 (-1) because it was a match for 20 elves. 28 dwarfs (a match for 7x4 elves) may use an horde formation, and so on. Of course, elves can use horde too, but 50 elves together would be screaming for a ubberspell or some warmachine love...




if they have GWs they dont have a 4+/6++ save as you were suggesting. In fact, if they have GWs then just use the example using hammerers i posted before. The elves have GW troops, they just dont have spearelves with GWs.

They don't have GW troops (units with GW in the troops section, I mean). If they can't do damage (S3 isn't doing too much against >T3/good AS troops), and can't bear with damage (nor with resilience, nor with numbers)... what's their role? distraction?

The Low King
03-05-2012, 01:26
You are comparing the units when against one of the worste targets for the elves to fight.....

High initiative, high toughness, high weaponskill, high armour unit against elves who rely on high weaponskill, having higher initiative than your opponant and rely on mass S3 attacks.
The dwarfs you are using on the other hand are designed not to kill stuff but to survive....

Chaos warriors are one of the best units in the game, making elves have equal survivability to them would be....strange


You wouldn't do it if you had 20 just elves. I said 7x3 (-1) because it was a match for 20 elves. 28 dwarfs (a match for 7x4 elves) may use an horde formation, and so on. Of course, elves can use horde too, but 50 elves together would be screaming for a ubberspell or some warmachine love...

why would you only use 20 elves? and the dwarfs wouldnt be in 7x3 formation unless they are GW dwarfs.

A horde of Dwarfs is also more vulnerable to Uberspells than a horde of elves.



They don't have GW troops (units with GW in the troops section, I mean). If they can't do damage (S3 isn't doing too much against >T3/good AS troops), and can't bear with damage (nor with resilience, nor with numbers)... what's their role? distraction?

They can do damage....just by mass attacks rather than high strength.

the difference would be 20 attacks hitting on 4s with rerolls, wounding on 5s and 10 attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s......wich is about the same

R Man
03-05-2012, 01:46
The Low King
Re: High Elf wishlisting...

You are comparing the units when against one of the worste targets for the elves to fight.....

High initiative, high toughness, high weaponskill, high armour unit against elves who rely on high weaponskill, having higher initiative than your opponant and rely on mass S3 attacks.
The dwarfs you are using on the other hand are designed not to kill stuff but to survive....

Chaos warriors are one of the best units in the game, making elves have equal survivability to them would be....strange

I know, I was demonstrating a point, not making a fair comparison. My point was that a direct comparison of attack power is misleading, especially with spear elves, and ignores context. My other point was that the offensive power that elves have instead of defensive power is quickly reduced, mostly for spear elves but really for any small elven unit or a unit in a horde. Whereas defence seems to remain roughly equally useful thorough out a combat, for the most part. Therefore elven attack power isn't essentially enough to offset their frailty, especially when accounting for missile because, frankly ASF does jack against being shot in the face. Now there are possible solutions to this, but I wasn't suggesting giving them a Chaos Warriors defence. I was pointing out that most elite units do require some form of mitigation to be effective. This can be armour, but it can also be increase in numbers, better shooting or even movement rules. Obviously elves are thematically lightly armoured, so that's out. But I fail to see why a points reduction or two won't help. Knocking a point of here or there won't suddenly make them play like goblins or anything. Making shooting better, especially some anti-medium armour shooting, would help too by off-setting HE Infantry frailness, and so on and so on.

Obviously this isn't so clear cut. Elves still have potent magic, Dragon Princes and Phoenix Guard, who boast good defences. White Lions also have good shooting defence and Stubborn and Eagles are good too. But if you took out ASF that would change. And since ASF doesn't do what it was supposed to do it should at least be re-considered.

Hoshiyami
03-05-2012, 02:03
why would you only use 20 elves? and the dwarfs wouldnt be in 7x3 formation unless they are GW dwarfs.

A horde of Dwarfs is also more vulnerable to Uberspells than a horde of elves.


At some point you'll put the limit. 20 elves are 180 points (+ command group). 25 (a 5 casulaties buffer) comes at 225 (a handy 250 with full command)... they begin to be a little too expensive for whatever they're going to do...

The only reasons a horde of dwarves could be more vulnerable to ubberspells are init checks and dragon banner. 'Every miniature takes a hit' or T check spells for example favor dwarves. Also, dwarven magic protection CAN be very powerful, albeit you have to invest points in it.



They can do damage....just by mass attacks rather than high strength.

the difference would be 20 attacks hitting on 4s with rerolls, wounding on 5s and 10 attacks hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s......wich is about the same

Against AS 2+ (elven cavalry, bretonnia, etc) 1 S point doubles the wounds (and 2S points means x3). Against T5, too. Armor save, thougness... sheer number doesn't always work.

Checking the numbers against T4 troops, that 20 attacks would render 2-3 wounds... and then comes the return damage. It would be ok if armored T4 wasn't so normal in the battlefield (elite, expensive troops shouldn't be easily killed), but it's rather common.

Kurnous the Hunter
03-05-2012, 11:44
Okay, I know I'm new here but I was much more active back in the GW website days, had an internet article or two published etc (You might find The Hooves of Ellyrion). In early 2002 I started writing some Advanced Warhammer Rules (AWR) which was inspired in part by the new edition, Mordheim, the computer games and creating a more 'fluffy' game. I might add that these rules had fighting in multiple ranks (10 years ahead of it's time!) I might post them up sometime. However my time as a student came to an end and as my life got busier, I abandoned the project.

At the time I felt that Elves were not very fluffy, toyed with the idea of 2 attacks - but that was way overpowered particularly with no 'step up'.

I had a few versions of Elves with a special rule 'Elven Agility'

In battle, elves use their natural speed, grace and reflexes to good effect. On the attack they lash out with blows of blinding speed, often far too quick for the enemy to follow. Attacking an elf is no easy matter either, their keen senses and awesome reflexes mean that they meet blows with ease, deftly parrying or turning aside before the blow strikes. With bows, elves are very quick to draw and notch their arrows with great deftness they aim and fire, often twice as fast as archers of lesser races.

All versions had Elves shooting twice if standing still (no ranked fire) - this was inspired by Shadow of the Horned Rat - where shooting was initiative based.

I Had 3 versions of how it would effect combat.
1. Re-roll misses in Combat, 6+ Dodge (Ward) save
2. Re-roll misses in Combat, -1 to hit (Combat and shooting)
3. +1 to hit in combat, -1 to hit (Combat and shooting)

Option Number 3 minimized dice rolling/ re-rolling but felt too powerful, whilst Option 1 felt balanced but just had too much going on with dice.

With the change in how initiative works and step up, I believe any of the 3 above would work with the addition of new options
4. ASF, 6+ward (can be combined with hand weapon and shield ward)
5. ASF, -1 to hit.

The question would be which of the 5 options would be most balanced.

There are two main issues though
a. How would re-roll hits (plain or ASF) fit in with the hatred mechanic of HE vs DE.
b. How to differentiate HE vs DE? My idea here would be HE count as +1 Initiative when fighting DE.

Please note that in my experimental rules I did not have Citizen Levy/Martial Prowess extra ranks. (I had Rules regarding formations; Shield Walls vs Open Formation vs Incoming! - and HE got bonuses to formation rules).

Now I guess I'll wait to hear some feedback regarding what fellow WHFB players would think is balanced. I lean toward Option 3 - but worry that it would make the characters too effective.

I also had another rule, again for all Elves regarding Magic

Magical Talent
Elves as a race are blessed with vast magical talent. They can more keenly see the winds of magic, and understand its intricacies better. Magical power more naturally flow to them as though they are conducts of power. Also the long lives of the elves means they have more time to practice, and study magic as an art. This means that elves are great spell-casters; far better then those of lesser races.

All elves may re-roll any results of 1 on any power or dispel dice as well as spell effects. The second roll of a re-roll counts and no further re-rolls allowed unless any other ability states that it can.

This was at the time when miscasts were double ones. I always thought that Elves should be much more reliable with their magic and cast the same spells as non-elves in a superior manner. (Slann would get an even better version of course!)

Sinaris
04-05-2012, 05:10
I am continueing to flesh out my idea in the form of my own version of 8th Ed. High Elves, so far i have core and special slots loosely worked out (points and toning down/up are "in progress"). If interested look here:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39359

Damocles8
04-05-2012, 05:53
I wonder what High Magic lore is going to turn into.....

Torga_DW
04-05-2012, 06:03
Is it just me or do spear elves look like they're wearing heavy armour? Shouldn't high elven craftsmen be about level with dwarven ones? What ever happened to ithilmar? I have this vague recollection of a fluff piece from the 6th ed high elf book (possibly 5th, it was a long time ago) that any dwarf would sell his mother for a bar of ithilmar?

what about something like:

most units get additional rank of attacks in combat (even archers), they just drill that much + experience, martial prowess i think, maybe including bowfire in this
ithilmar armour for most units, which is effectively +1 armour save, so high elf light armour is 5+, their heavy is 4+
remove speed of asuryan, but then swordmasters have greatswords without the always strikes last rule on them
white lion pelt = sea dragon pelt in effects
archers have option for light armour, spearmen for heavy (i know, its probably just me, it usually is, but they just look comparable to heavy armour on other high elves)
to represent their animosity with dark elves, they win the game on a 2+ (rolled after deployment) when fighting dark elves :angel:

what about if repeater bolt throwers stayed the same in price (or went up), still 2 crew, but instead of different firing options, each shot fired 1d6 full-strength bolts at the target?

oh, and maybe some sort of change (i don't know?) to dragon armour?

Sinaris
04-05-2012, 06:29
It just seems a lot of the sugestions seem to revolve around the elves killing super well or being a bit tougher. It just doesnt fit right. They kill well enough, and they are meant to go down when they get hit, its finding the right way to portray them defending against being hit in the first place, thats WHY High Elves got SoA in 7th, not to make them killing machines.

Ward saves make them too tough and is a disinteresting rule, see brets, making them more killy is just silly, and barely changes them taking casualties when its time to get hit back, unless they can kill half a unit a turn which i doubt would be good.
-1 to hit across the board or higher WS might be ok but still a bit underwhelming, at least imo. My rule works well, but many dont seem to like it, heavy armor is for dwarfs and doesnt fit the elven niche even if fluff wise their skill as armorers is very high. A solution will hopefully come about but i think its agreed SOMETHING needs to be placed to make the elves ELVES.

Truthiness
04-05-2012, 07:57
I for one don't really see the need for a drastic re-working of the High Elf list. Call me crazy, but I don't find it to be all that bad to play with, even when without Teclis and the Book. Yeah, our Core choices aren't great. However, our special choices I feel are pretty rock solid with each filling a good roll. If White Lions, Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters, and Dragon Prince all remain exactly the same I would be perfectly happy. They each fill a niche. Are Swordmasters fragile? Yes, but they can chop through units like they're not even there. It just means you need to handle with care. Are Phoenix Guard crap at killing things? Yes, but they're also a great tank unit. Do White Lions get eaten up by large units of cheap infantry? Yes, so go find some monsters to tear up.

All the High Elf book really needs are some more options and some slight tweaks. Some things are a given. Dragon mounts will be cheaper. High Magic will be updated to 8th edition standards. Chariots will get a little cheaper. We'll get some kind of monstrous cav (Lion riders are the obvious choice, but maybe GW will surprise us). Hell, maybe we'll see Dragons in the rare slots (pretty pretty please). Especially after seeing Empire come back down to Earth, I don't think there is much else that needs to be done to High Elves. It's hard to justify a reduction in points for Spearmen when Empire Swordsmen just went to 7 points per model.

Here's what I would like to see. Silver Helms and/or Ellyrian Reavers move over to core (I would LOVE Reavers as core, but Silver Helms I think are more likely). Give Archers light armor, Spears heavy armor, and Lothern seaguard a shield base and I think each of those units is just about right. I think at the moment is that our core is worth about a half a point less than they are currently priced. It's not as horrible as most High Elf players make it out to be. Reduce them a full point and they're probably too good. I feel like a little extra armor is just enough to make them balanced. It's not super sexy, but it works. I'm not a big fan of decreasing the points values because High Elves are supposed to be small and elite. I think very slight armor upgrades would do the trick.

Let's take the a fore mentioned Empire Swordsman. Right now for 2 points the HE Spearman has higher Leadership, Initiative, ASF and Marital Prowess. The Empire Swordsman has the detachment rule. If we go by the Vampire Counts book the 6+ ward save from HW/Shield is considered equal to the extra rank of attacks with Spears, so we'll call that even. The detachment rule is hard to quantify. It allows detachments to use the parent unit's psychology and leadership and allows for counter charges and supporting fire. That means for the low low price of 65 points a Warrior Priest makes 3 units (one big one and two smaller ones) leadership 8 and have hatred. I'd say it's probably worth about as much as ASF (given what step up has done to the rule) and the extra point of leadership. So that leaves us with an the two points of Initiative and Martial Prowess. Initiative isn't worth much with step up, but in combination with ASF it's nice. I'd put it at around 1 point. The extra rank of attacks from Martial Prowess used to mean hitting with 3 ranks and blunting the enemy's attacks back. Now it just means you get 4 ranks of attacks instead of the 3 of normal spearmen. To me that's half a point per model at most. So by my thinking the current HE Spearman is worth about 1.5 points more than an Empire Swordsman. Take it down to 8 points and it's too good. Leave it at 9 points and it's not really good enough. Now taking the armor save from 5+ to 4+ is good, but on a T3 model I don't think it's worth a full point. To me it's worth maybe 3/4 points. By adding heavy armor to spearmen that makes them worth about 2.25 points more than Empire Swordsmen. Now the common consensus on the internet seems to be that Empire Swordsmen are probably a little overcosted, so it seems to me that a High Elf Spearmen with heavy armor IS probably worth about 9 points.

I think a universal 6+ ward save and stripping ASF would require a huge re-work. The army works decently well at the moment. Take away ridiculous things like Teclis and the Book, and you've got an army that isn't faceroll easy to win with, but is very capable in the hands of a good general. High Elves are supposed to be fragile. You're not supposed to slug it out tit for tat. You're supposed to select your fights with care and maximize your awesome hitting power. Just give me a few more options, adjust core slightly, and update some rules to 8th edition standards and I think we'll be good to go.

I like what I'm seeing good things from the 8th edition books. Empire, Tomb Kings, Ogres, Orcs, and Vampires are all right around the same level. More importantly, they each have pretty good internal balance. Call me crazy, but for the first time in a while I have faith in GW.

TheDungen
04-05-2012, 08:41
I still say give the elves parry with all weapons, that makes them durable in close combat, and then give them better shooting capabilities, that makes sure they can decrease incomming enemy fire making them durable agaisnt enemy shooting. I could see the old rule from the lothern sea patrol list return for some unis a free turn of shooting before the battle begins (after all the dark eldar were given a webway portal which i understand i similiar to the one used by the ulthwe strike force).
It also helps make them the defensive elves, relying on taking the enemy on and holdign the line and then counter attacking with elite units such as dragon princes, swordsmaster and white lions.
The dark elves are the offensive elves launching a fast attack from any directions grinding down the enemy.
and wood elfs should be the mobile elfs avoiding battle until the enemy either is weakened by bowfire or makes a mistake then they go celtic on them.


Oh yeah and SoA gives always strike in initative order regardless of charges or two handed weapons.

Honours return one for each kingdom.

dragon mages can cast spells while wearing armour but is limitied to being level 1 wizards (maybee with flaming sword of rhuin as a bound spell they can only cast on themselves)

archers get some kind of boost (or simply a point decrease) in order to make HE more shooty.

Silver helms moved to core, but possibly reduced to light armour included (with a matching point decrease) and the ability to boy heavy armour.

swordsmasters do not get strike first but could be increased to I6 (and always striking in I order because of my SoA rule) makign sure thye basically strike forst anyway.

Shadow warriors get a boost (The seaguard rule maybe?)

a unit of elite archers is added they could be Yvressian Cotique or maybee a new kind of Maidenguard.

the tiranoc chariot is 2 for 1

the lion chariot is moved to rare

the great eagles are 2 for 1 and get a swoop attack like the screamers.

RBT are 2 for 1.

Otherwise only tweek with the points costs. The elves already have a centerpiece set in their dragons, and i really dont think any religious shrine fits them the elves dont view religion that way.

Oh yeah and teclis knows all the spells in a lore of his choosing as bound spells. The moonstaff lets him casts one spell with IF/misscast per battle (fits with the fluff of the battle of the finuval plains). Teclis is a powerful but predictable enemy, you wont be able to dispell everythign but you know he'll cast all the spells and he wil do so at the lowest possible powerlevel so keep your dispel dice for that spell that you just cant have goign of and you'll actually have an easier time dispelling that than if he had rolled for it.

Kurnous the Hunter
04-05-2012, 11:04
I am continueing to flesh out my idea in the form of my own version of 8th Ed. High Elves, so far i have core and special slots loosely worked out (points and toning down/up are "in progress"). If interested look here:
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39359

It's not too bad actually though I believe attacking in an extra rank + preventing step up is a very powerful combination. I might throw in a version myself pretty soon.

Sinaris
04-05-2012, 12:14
Then help me come up with some balances, id love the feedback.

Kurnous the Hunter
04-05-2012, 15:08
Then help me come up with some balances, id love the feedback.

I'd prefer if you would help me :)

Okay here is what I would do:

Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.

All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)

Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.

Shield wall
The Citizen Levy of Ulthuan use their hundreds of years of training and innate discipline to perfect this form of fighting. Countless times the Elves of Ulthuan have stood against foes that heavily outnumber them, and have managed to drive them off.

A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing make no Supporting Attacks (Note that the Elf unit still uses it's second rank of spears). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.

When calculating combat if the unit in Shield wall formation loses combat- discount the enemy rank bonus. If the Unit in Shield Wall formation still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the Shield Wall is broken.
Conversely if an enemy unit loses combat against a Shield wall - ignore the rank bonus of the unit in Shield wall formation. If the enemy unit still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the unit fights on.

Designer note: I'm not sure if the above could be worded better or is just too complicated. Another alternative would simply be to add parry if charged & all subsequent turns.The Shield Wall rule is designed with a few things in mind.
1. Emphasize the defensive nature of HE Spear levy.
2. Give Elves an "Anvil" that would lessen the attrition war with large blocks & Hordes (elves holding back the tide)
3. As Point 2 gives Elves the chance to counter attack by holding the line.

CORE
Spearmen 10 Points
Archers 11 Points
Lothern Seaguard 13 Points
Silver Helms 22 Points
Ellyrion Reavers 18 Points

SPECIAL
Sword Masters 16 Points SN1
White Lions 16 Points SN2
Phoenix Guard 16 Point SN3
Shadow Warriors 16 Points
Dragon Princes 32 Points
Tiranoc Chariot 90 Points 2 for 1

RARE
RBT 80 Points - 3 crew, 2 for 1 OR 100 Points but multiple shots = S5.
Great Eagle 50 Points - Armour Piercing, 2 for 1
Lion Chariot 150 Points

SN1 - Sword Masters have three Sword Forms
1. Evade - Parry Save (stacks with Preternatural Senses)
2. Swift- Gain +1I and ASF
3. Pierce - Armour Piercing

SN2 White Lions gain D3 wounds to monsters (or Heroic KB?)

SN3 - Pheonix Guard - Scrap fear and ward save. Gain Unbreakable and Guardian Formation
Guardian Formation= unit may gain extra rank of supporting attacks (like spears)

Mages gain special rule Innate Mages = Reroll any result of 1 on power or dispel dice.

And that is how I would present 8th edition High Elves

TheDungen
04-05-2012, 21:30
I dont think you'll see more than one army wise special rule that isnt a core mechanic. In fact i'd be suprised evne by one. SoA is just ASF which is a core mechanic. and no rules which counteracts core mechincs will happen, simply because if they start makign exceptions from the core mechanics they will eventually do so again and the core mechanics will be slowly but surely undermined.

strongbow
05-05-2012, 09:34
The idea of an 'elite' archer unit seems quite popular.

Was wondering what niche they really fill? They'd have to be more expensive than the current expensive archers. What would they do that couldn't be done by improved Shadow Warriors?

TheDungen
05-05-2012, 11:33
No not popular i'm the only one sayign it but i've been saying it alot.
Shadow warriors are skirmishers they're meant to be behind the enemy line harassign the enemy they should not be shooty enough to do more thna kill of stray characters or warmachine crews (or give a rear charge when needed) i'm talkign about a unit to take down monsterous infanery or infantery with heavy armour and shields. Something which isnt done well by either the RBT (too few shots) or regular archers (to low str). And then add heavy armour to them to make them more resilient to counter fire, armoured archers with composite bows were quite common in the ancient world and sicne the elves are based on the ancient and classic eras (more ancient than classic though) it'd fit right in.

The inclusion of elite archers is also provided our present day expensive archers are decreased in points. The elite archers would be similiar points to the shadow warriors but their role would be more of a cross between archers and rbts.

They could also be decent in close combat full well able to hold up to units of cheap infantery (skaven slaves goblins),light cavalery or skirmishers for a few turns. elvish leadership and heavy armour already does this however, just having CCW means they wont be very killy in CC (which they shouldnt be).

I just picked the idea out of the air though, but since its the only idea for a new unit that has come up that is not dragons, flying chariots or lion cavalery i choose to go with it. Its also diffrent from the other elite high elf infantery, in fact is dffrent from anything any army has today (The closest things would be the old DoW siege crossbowmen). I strongly prefer blocks of infantery and cavalery to large monsters, shrines and chariots. If you ask me the most awesome warhammer figures ever were Brian Nelsons metal chaos knights (followed by everything else made by Brian Nelson)

Mati
05-05-2012, 11:40
Not only white lions can fill the place for MI/MC - there are creatures called Drakes. Something like in Dragon Age pc game - you have baby dragons, Drakes who are medium size dragons and then the big ones.

TheDungen
05-05-2012, 19:05
I dont like the drakes of dragon age, they have no wings they're just fourlegged lizards, we already got thoose they're called cold ones.

MooseOnTheLoose
05-05-2012, 22:40
Not only white lions can fill the place for MI/MC - there are creatures called Drakes. Something like in Dragon Age pc game - you have baby dragons, Drakes who are medium size dragons and then the big ones.

But we have stat lines for white lions, they simply are not big enough nor fit MI/MC status. Too come back and make a "bigger white lion" is the worst idea they could possibly come up with. If you make them White Lion Knights, now you just made a redundant unit as there are already Dragon Princes and if someone actually wants to convert there is the count as, no need to bog down unit options with the same but different appearance if someone can't think outside the box a little. Drakes would arguably be more rare then dragons. If all the dragons need to be awoke via slumber, how would they be producing offspring let alone keeping them alive. They don't fit in the current setting and would require an alteration to not just one army book to be fluff adjusted. On top of that, You would probably be looking at a unit like peg knights, and playing a role much like eagles. Then what stat line do you give them when we look at the dragon stats?

Each province is pretty much set up in terms of representation with unique units. Some have a couple representations via lords/heros/units. I think we are most likely to see a new entry come from the Shadowlands (a province that has been in war for ever only has some lack luster skirmishers and hasn't come up with anything different or special over all those year? Key opening for new entry. High Elf are very magical, does the White Tower have more up its sleeves then Mages and Swordmasters? Seaguard, they tend to be the centre of nearly every High Elf involvement outside of the home land, yet all that sets them apart is oh, ya we just have more gear. Those would be imo the 3 provinces with ability to be expanded on without making things redundant or altering a tonne of fluff on one of if not the longest standing unaltered fluff in fantasy. White Lion Chariot/Dragon Mages were snuck into the list without altering the already established fluff and didn't make any entry redundant.

R Man
06-05-2012, 01:11
I for one don't really see the need for a drastic re-working of the High Elf list. Call me crazy, but I don't find it to be all that bad to play with, even when without Teclis and the Book. Yeah, our Core choices aren't great. However, our special choices I feel are pretty rock solid with each filling a good roll. If White Lions, Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters, and Dragon Prince all remain exactly the same I would be perfectly happy. They each fill a niche. Are Swordmasters fragile? Yes, but they can chop through units like they're not even there. It just means you need to handle with care. Are Phoenix Guard crap at killing things? Yes, but they're also a great tank unit. Do White Lions get eaten up by large units of cheap infantry? Yes, so go find some monsters to tear up.

I think the problem is that the Special Section is overcrowded. Silver Helms and Dragon Princes should not be in the same group, and I don't think both Chariots should be in the same group either. Sharing a category tends to make one unit redundant. This is also a problem if we want to introduce new units. It's not so much about the qualities of each unit, its about having too many in one category.


The idea of an 'elite' archer unit seems quite popular.

Was wondering what niche they really fill? They'd have to be more expensive than the current expensive archers. What would they do that couldn't be done by improved Shadow Warriors?

Take on heavy armour? Shadow Warriors will almost certainly lack ranged punch to deal with heavy troops and more monstrous units. That's why I'm in favour of Scorpions. They would act like a High Elf equivalent of Jezzils. Good for killing Knights and Heavy Infantry that HE core struggles with, and might even put a few wounds on a monster. But for how many points?

Athlan na Dyr
06-05-2012, 10:14
I dont like the drakes of dragon age, they have no wings they're just fourlegged lizards, we already got thoose they're called cold ones.
So make warhammer drakes have wings. After all, well armoured, hitty flying monstrous cavalry just has a certain ring to it, don't you think? Oh, the tactical uses...


Drakes would arguably be more rare then dragons. If all the dragons need to be awoke via slumber, how would they be producing offspring let alone keeping them alive. They don't fit in the current setting and would require an alteration to not just one army book to be fluff adjusted.

Well, those sun dragons have to keep being made somehow. Justification could easily be that the elves are trying to familiarise young dragons with the wider world rather than sleeping all day in an attempt to prevent the current situation of 'get invaded, wait 10 months to a decade, wake dragon'. To be perfectly honest though, such reasoning is secondary to the 'rule of cool' as to why I would love to see drake riders.


I'd prefer if you would help me :)

Okay here is what I would do:

Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.

All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
A hard ward? Interesting...

Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.
Stackable ward saves? Interesting-er (though parry saves aren't exactly commonplace in a HE army). Suprised that you turned SoA into normal ASF rather than its current format, but seems logical from a simplicity perspective

Shield wall
The Citizen Levy of Ulthuan use their hundreds of years of training and innate discipline to perfect this form of fighting. Countless times the Elves of Ulthuan have stood against foes that heavily outnumber them, and have managed to drive them off.

A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing make no Supporting Attacks (Note that the Elf unit still uses it's second rank of spears). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.

When calculating combat if the unit in Shield wall formation loses combat- discount the enemy rank bonus. If the Unit in Shield Wall formation still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the Shield Wall is broken.
Conversely if an enemy unit loses combat against a Shield wall - ignore the rank bonus of the unit in Shield wall formation. If the enemy unit still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the unit fights on.

Designer note: I'm not sure if the above could be worded better or is just too complicated. Another alternative would simply be to add parry if charged & all subsequent turns.The Shield Wall rule is designed with a few things in mind.
1. Emphasize the defensive nature of HE Spear levy.
2. Give Elves an "Anvil" that would lessen the attrition war with large blocks & Hordes (elves holding back the tide)
3. As Point 2 gives Elves the chance to counter attack by holding the line.

Not sure on the 'cannot march' thing. Maintaining an overlapping shield wall (what I'm assuming this rule is meant to represent) would be an utter pain in the **** if you had to move.
Also, from a rules perspective this seems kinda strange. It limits attacks in a non-linear fashion, adds +1 to armour and has some kinky stuff going on with rank bonus (which is only worked out after combat result is decided?). I must admit that I do like the idea behind it though.
If I were to change it (read; royally cock it up :p ), I'd make it;
'any infantry unit that is armed with shields may declare they are using this formation during the start of the player's own movement phase. This will last until the High Elf player's next turn. The unit cannot declare a normal move, though may still charge 2D6" (i.e. do not add movement to charge range). Also, the unit receives +1 AS, is stubborn and may parry regardless of what other weapons are being wielded along with their shields. Furthermore, the number of ranks your enemy can attack with is reduced by one, so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.
If however, the unit is defeated in combat, the shieldwall rule ends until it can be declared in the next HE movement phase. Also, should the unit break from combat, they roll 3D6 and discard the highest'

To my mind that reads a lot easier and disregards the wierd rank thingy for a simple 'stubborn' that helps keep that anvil where it needs to be, even against elite enemies.


CORE
Spearmen 10 Points Good. Personally, I would add an option for HA (for +1 or 2pts), but just my opinion.
Archers 11 Points Seems a bit much to be honest. They hardly benefit from ASF or the 6++ as much as spears. 10 or maybe even 9
Lothern Seaguard 13 Points again, bit much to my mind...
Silver Helms 22 Points Dear lord, they got a point increase? If this included shields, fine, but otherwise -2 points.
Ellyrion Reavers 18 Points Again, a price rise? Disagree with this
Like the units you're putting in core, but I think you're over estimating the value of a 6++ (nothing wrong with a conservative approach though) or you're including equipment that you haven't listed.

SPECIAL
Sword Masters 16 Points SN1
White Lions 16 Points SN2
Phoenix Guard 16 Point SN3
Shadow Warriors 16 Points These boys need some work, perhaps BS 5 ala shades?
Dragon Princes 32 Points Again with the overestimation of the ward. Whilst you got it right with the spears, the nerfs cavalry took with the edition change either equal or far outweigh the buff you've put in. Hence, 30 points or perhaps 29
Tiranoc Chariot 90 Points 2 for 1 for the number of units limit right? Why not make them in units of 1 to 3?

RARE
RBT 80 Points - 3 crew, 2 for 1 OR 100 Points but multiple shots = S5. Personally would like for the volley to be a bit better (3D3 instead) and 85 to 90 (with 3 crew). Your version does seem fair, maybe a bit conservative
Great Eagle 50 Points - Armour Piercing, 2 for 1
Lion Chariot 150 Points
Add drake riders. You know you want them.

SN1 - Sword Masters have three Sword Forms
1. Evade - Parry Save (stacks with Preternatural Senses)
2. Swift- Gain +1I and ASF
3. Pierce - Armour Piercing
number 3 is nowhere near as good as 1 and 2. 2 is strange in that they already have ASF, merely cancelled by Great Weapons. My version would be:
1. Evade - as current
2. Swift - reroll ones to hit
3. Pierce - reroll ones to wound, Armour Piercing
but at the current 15 ppm

SN2 White Lions gain D3 wounds to monsters (or Heroic KB?)
considering their rather large nerf with the 'no rerolls', these boys need a LOT more to justify 16 ppm. I'd add that white lion cloaks add +1 AS all the time, with an additional +1 vs. shooting, the D3 wounds to Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry and Monsters, and even then might be searching for a little bit extra for 16

SN3 - Pheonix Guard - Scrap fear and ward save. Gain Unbreakable and Guardian Formation
Guardian Formation= unit may gain extra rank of supporting attacks (like spears)
Right, no ward save eliminates the cheese I was expecting with the stackable ward save. Again, seems to be very expensive for what they do. Compared to Black Guard, they have Unbreakable vs. Stubborn and Guardian Formation vs. 2 Attacks for 3 points more (I'm assuming ASF = reroll missed hits all the time). Also, these really aren't that different to Sword Masters (a point of strength, WS, I, the blade forms compared to ASF, formation vs. 2 Attacks and unbreakable). It would be nice to see some more defined roles for elites.

Mages gain special rule Innate Mages = Reroll any result of 1 on power or dispel dice.
uh, not a fan of this. Would lead to some serious dodgy-ness when the Slaan came around to be redone.

And that is how I would present 8th edition High Elves
Not bad, a bit conservative in places for both points costs and changes to the current book, a bit garbled in explanations, but generally well fitting and thought out. Good job.
If I was to make any further criticism, it be on the survivability of HE combat characters (namely they have very little). The 6++ will go some way, but T3 will still remain T3.


Take on heavy armour? Shadow Warriors will almost certainly lack ranged punch to deal with heavy troops and more monstrous units. That's why I'm in favour of Scorpions. They would act like a High Elf equivalent of Jezzils. Good for killing Knights and Heavy Infantry that HE core struggles with, and might even put a few wounds on a monster. But for how many points?
Isn't that the whole point of a bolt thrower though?

TheDungen
06-05-2012, 10:49
Yeah the scorpion would certainly not be called a scorpion in a high elf army so what would we call a machine throwing large bolts? Maybe a bolt thrower?
Jokes aside the boltthrower is already much close to a scorpion than to a balista, if you want to add a artilery piece add a balista instead and move the bolt thrower to special. A balista could be shooting one shot that doenst scatter and gives a blasttemplate at say str 5 or 6. and causes d6 wounds. Kinda like a cannon but with much less str because it has much higher BS and doesnt scatter. (Cause i think cannons should have to roll to hit).

Personally i prefer regiemnts as i said earlier, massed ranks of archers glimmering in mail armour seems more high elf to me. But this is impssible to combine with a universal wardsave, they would either be to well protected or to expensive to take in any great number.

All in all a universal wardsave would make most of our units to expensive especially the archers who will benefit little from it. I prefer parry and Making high elfs shooty enough to decrease incommign fire. This will give the shadow warriors a clerar role too, kill those warmachines before they kil your expensive elfs. A universal wardsave would mean high elves could play like spacemarines in 40k, you'll get away with mistakes to easy and i dont think that high elves should be that forgiving.

sysy16
06-05-2012, 18:34
Please no MI or MC.

Drake riders ? Yeuch... please no.



If I'm wish listing, I just want to see some sensible changes and no new stupid units like MC

The issue is always ASF, to keep or not?

For what ever reason, it appears hugely unpopular with other players which is funny as its not like the HE army is a top tier army.


So if it goes, then their has to be a points drop, probably quite significant, which means its not so much an elite army.


Silver Helms?
I'd move Silver helms to core (why should Empire and Dark Elves have all cav army abilty!?)
I'd give them Ilthmar armour so they are the more mobile than DP and so we can all start to use our silverhelms again!

Sea Guard?
There is an argument for them to be special but we don't have much core already. They should come equiped with Shields so making them a point cheaper.

Archers, get Light armour for free

Allow a noble to ride a Griffon

Drop Griffons in price

make a Prince with a dragon more optimal- either cheaper or the dragon cost comes from Rare, all Dragons seeing changes, such as universal 3+ save for all types and S4 Breath OR give the HE dragons some options like other monsters have in the new Empire book, a ward save, magic resistance, AP, swiftsure or something.

10 magic items or so but all 10 of them being worth taking unlike some of the new books!

Rework Shadow warriors, perhaps they can arrive at any board edge as reinforcement, give them aditional hand weapons, Ambush or something to make them more worth taking

Reaver cav should have some option for making them a bit better, I love the new models from IoB but they are very sub optimal. Perhaps some kind of ability to re-roll charges or flee moves.


I really don't want a lot of big changes and just don't want to see us have warmachines, MI or MC....

but the way forward for GW seems to be MC or MI but I really hope they don't feel every army must have a unit type of all classes.

BloodiedSword
07-05-2012, 01:08
Not only white lions can fill the place for MI/MC - there are creatures called Drakes. Something like in Dragon Age pc game - you have baby dragons, Drakes who are medium size dragons and then the big ones.

I'd thought about this myself, and while I don't mind the idea of the unit I think the background firmly shuts it down.

Dragons are already incredibly rare, and pretty much never breed. If the HE were fortunate enough to come across baby dragons, they would be like national treasures - there's no way any HE in their right mind would let those anywhere near a battlefield, probably even if the fate of Ulthuan is in the balance.

The bearded one
07-05-2012, 01:30
(Ridden) white lions seem fairly plausible though. Actually, there are all kinds of units that could be created with white lions as the base; white lions like in storm of magic, a bit like units (or solo lions) of sabretusks, white lion cavalry, white lions as monstrous beasts, andsoforth.

Kloud13
07-05-2012, 02:23
When using Phoenix Guard, your opponent has to reveal ALL the assassins in their army. and any other unit that uses likewise trickery. As well, that Master DE Assasin cannot infiltrate a HE unit. he is forced to join a DE unit.

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 04:25
Hi Athlan na Dyr.

Thank you for your feedback it is much appreciated. I'll reply to your replies in Aqua/Blue.


http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/misc/quote_icon.png[/IMG] Originally Posted by Kurnous the Hunter http://www.warseer.com/forums/warseer/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6209006#post6209006)
I'd prefer if you would help me :)

Okay here is what I would do:

Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.

All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
A hard ward? Interesting...
My first thought was +1 to hit, -1 to hit for enemy, but this is way overpowered and would make Elven characters extremely effective. A 6+ ward is hardly game breaking or overpowered, and the Elves are still fragile, just a little less so.


Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.
Stackable ward saves? Interesting-er (though parry saves aren't exactly commonplace in a HE army). Suprised that you turned SoA into normal ASF rather than its current format, but seems logical from a simplicity perspective
You are dead right it was all about simplicity. I can also imagine how opposing players would feel quite "dirty" about elves not only attacking in initiative order with a giant great weapons, but then ASF & the re-rolls it usually gives! Also makes HE players think about how they are going to arm their characters! No more Great weapon being the easy choice!

Shield wall
The Citizen Levy of Ulthuan use their hundreds of years of training and innate discipline to perfect this form of fighting. Countless times the Elves of Ulthuan have stood against foes that heavily outnumber them, and have managed to drive them off.

A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing make no Supporting Attacks (Note that the Elf unit still uses it's second rank of spears). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.

When calculating combat if the unit in Shield wall formation loses combat- discount the enemy rank bonus. If the Unit in Shield Wall formation still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the Shield Wall is broken.
Conversely if an enemy unit loses combat against a Shield wall - ignore the rank bonus of the unit in Shield wall formation. If the enemy unit still breaks it flees as normal. If it would otherwise pass the leadership test the unit fights on.

Designer note: I'm not sure if the above could be worded better or is just too complicated. Another alternative would simply be to add parry if charged & all subsequent turns.The Shield Wall rule is designed with a few things in mind.
1. Emphasize the defensive nature of HE Spear levy.
2. Give Elves an "Anvil" that would lessen the attrition war with large blocks & Hordes (elves holding back the tide)
3. As Point 2 gives Elves the chance to counter attack by holding the line.

Not sure on the 'cannot march' thing. Maintaining an overlapping shield wall (what I'm assuming this rule is meant to represent) would be an utter pain in the **** if you had to move.
Also, from a rules perspective this seems kinda strange. It limits attacks in a non-linear fashion, adds +1 to armour and has some kinky stuff going on with rank bonus (which is only worked out after combat result is decided?). I must admit that I do like the idea behind it though.
If I were to change it (read; royally cock it up :p ), I'd make it;
'any infantry unit that is armed with shields may declare they are using this formation during the start of the player's own movement phase. This will last until the High Elf player's next turn. The unit cannot declare a normal move, though may still charge 2D6" (i.e. do not add movement to charge range). Also, the unit receives +1 AS, is stubborn and may parry regardless of what other weapons are being wielded along with their shields. Furthermore, the number of ranks your enemy can attack with is reduced by one, so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.
If however, the unit is defeated in combat, the shieldwall rule ends until it can be declared in the next HE movement phase. Also, should the unit break from combat, they roll 3D6 and discard the highest'

To my mind that reads a lot easier and disregards the wierd rank thingy for a simple 'stubborn' that helps keep that anvil where it needs to be, even against elite enemies.

I knew that it would be too complicated hence my note. I just couldn't find a simple way to word it better/seem simpler - it works simply in my head but when read out it seems confusing. I also though about amending the shield wall to remove 1 rank of supporting attacks but I had already hit post.
As a further note I wrote some advanced warhammer rules 10 years ago where all races could form a shield wall (with a leadership test). High elves could automatically form one and still march 8" (all to do with the fluff about how swift and disciplined HE formations are).

I would still let them move, just not as fast. After all even a Roman Testudo could advance. I'll retry below.

Shield Wall
A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing lose one rank of Supporting Attacks (so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.

The unit counts as being stubborn whilst in combat. However if they lose combat by more than their rank bonus the Shieldwall is broken and they cannot reform and declare a new shieldwall unless they are unengaged.
Additionally if an enemy unit loses combat by less then their own rank bonus they do not flee.
A Unit in Shieldwall formation can elect to pursue a broken enemy but roll 3D6 picking the lowest 2 dice. I they pursue the Shieldwall is considered broken.

NOTE: I thought adding a parry would make them too sturdy.


CORE
Spearmen 10 Points Good. Personally, I would add an option for HA (for +1 or 2pts), but just my opinion.
Archers 11 Points Seems a bit much to be honest. They hardly benefit from ASF or the 6++ as much as spears. 10 or maybe even 9
Lothern Seaguard 13 Points again, bit much to my mind...
Silver Helms 22 Points Dear lord, they got a point increase? If this included shields, fine, but otherwise -2 points.
Ellyrion Reavers 18 Points Again, a price rise? Disagree with this
Like the units you're putting in core, but I think you're over estimating the value of a 6++ (nothing wrong with a conservative approach though) or you're including equipment that you haven't listed.

With Archers I consider letting them shoot twice if stationary. Not sure if this would be OP or not (please let me know!) But to be honest they would still be decent supporting troops in combat. You are probably right though 10 points would be ok, 11 with light armour.
LSG you are probably right - 12 and same with Silver Helms.
High elves have too few choices in Core. Silver Helms are a must in core at the very least and I was torn about Reavers, I still am.

Overall you are correct though, I took pains not to create a 'Fan list' which all tend to turn out to be completely broken on close analysis.

SPECIAL
Sword Masters 16 Points SN1
White Lions 16 Points SN2
Phoenix Guard 16 Point SN3
Shadow Warriors 16 Points These boys need some work, perhaps BS 5 ala shades?
Dragon Princes 32 Points Again with the overestimation of the ward. Whilst you got it right with the spears, the nerfs cavalry took with the edition change either equal or far outweigh the buff you've put in. Hence, 30 points or perhaps 29
Tiranoc Chariot 90 Points 2 for 1 for the number of units limit right? Why not make them in units of 1 to 3?

I think you are generally right. I would love Shadow warrior to get shields back. Then they would have a 5+ AS with 5++ (Ward + parry save stack). Chariots - not a bad idea

RARE
RBT 80 Points - 3 crew, 2 for 1 OR 100 Points but multiple shots = S5. Personally would like for the volley to be a bit better (3D3 instead) and 85 to 90 (with 3 crew). Your version does seem fair, maybe a bit conservative
Great Eagle 50 Points - Armour Piercing, 2 for 1
Lion Chariot 150 Points
Add drake riders. You know you want them.

I believe High Elves will get Eagle Riders that will be called Wind Lords or something like that. It is mentioned in the fluff that they were used to patrol and bear messages across the huge Elven Empire.

SN1 - Sword Masters have three Sword Forms
1. Evade - Parry Save (stacks with Preternatural Senses)
2. Swift- Gain +1I and ASF
3. Pierce - Armour Piercing
number 3 is nowhere near as good as 1 and 2. 2 is strange in that they already have ASF, merely cancelled by Great Weapons. My version would be:
1. Evade - as current
2. Swift - reroll ones to hit
3. Pierce - reroll ones to wound, Armour Piercing
but at the current 15 ppm

I haven't come up with better names and explanations as of yet to my sadness. Thinking of relating each sword form to an Aspect of Khaine OR a dangerous creature. Remember my version of SoA is just a normal ASF. Hence with great weapon they only strike in initiative order, no ASF and no re-roll associated. I can imagine other elven troops would butcher them (Striking first and with re-rolls!) hence Swift was the option to make Sword Masters strike at an equal level. Pierce is a lesser option, but I thought that it is still an option against very heavy cavalry.

This version of the unit is still seriously good and I was considering putting them in the rare section with the option to count 1 unit as special per Arch Mage.

SN2 White Lions gain D3 wounds to monsters (or Heroic KB?)
considering their rather large nerf with the 'no rerolls', these boys need a LOT more to justify 16 ppm. I'd add that white lion cloaks add +1 AS all the time, with an additional +1 vs. shooting, the D3 wounds to Monstrous Infantry, Cavalry and Monsters, and even then might be searching for a little bit extra for 16
Again I think you are correct. 14-15 points would be better. Not sure about the extra +1AS in combat - can see alot of none HE players whine about how the fragile elves are not fragile enough!

SN3 - Pheonix Guard - Scrap fear and ward save. Gain Unbreakable and Guardian Formation
Guardian Formation= unit may gain extra rank of supporting attacks (like spears)
Right, no ward save eliminates the cheese I was expecting with the stackable ward save. Again, seems to be very expensive for what they do. Compared to Black Guard, they have Unbreakable vs. Stubborn and Guardian Formation vs. 2 Attacks for 3 points more (I'm assuming ASF = reroll missed hits all the time). Also, these really aren't that different to Sword Masters (a point of strength, WS, I, the blade forms compared to ASF, formation vs. 2 Attacks and unbreakable). It would be nice to see some more defined roles for elites.

Might pull it back 1 point. I expect Black Guard to change or become more expesnive come 8th Edition. Might also add +1MR to unit including characters who join.

Mages gain special rule Innate Mages = Reroll any result of 1 on power or dispel dice.
uh, not a fan of this. Would lead to some serious dodgy-ness when the Slaan came around to be redone.

You really think re-rolling 1's on PD and DD is really that bad? I think it gives Elves a nice edge without being Overpowered - after all they are superior natural magic users than other races AND they have much longer to study! Otherwise I barely feel HE magic is that much better than others such as say Empire, if you factor out back items (Banner of Sorcery, BoH). I shouldn't need to take silly magic items to have a racial edge which should be natural. Elf mages are also more expensive. How about re-rolling 1 roll of 1 per casting or Dispel attempt?
I am guessing Slann can just get a +1 on casting value on top amongst other silliness...

And that is how I would present 8th edition High Elves

řidrek
07-05-2012, 04:26
A few ideas I came up with, Feel free to shoot it full of holes. :)




Remove SoA (Because I feel that always strike first is to hard to balance and has become a crutch, with high initiative we already strike quickly but maybe they could use a +1 bonus to their initiative for special and rare units to further illustrate their level of training through quick reaction.)


Troops given Ilthilmar Armors (+1 to their armor rating to increase their survivability while still being fluffy)

Ilthilmar Barding

Reavers and Silver Helms moved to Core.

Lothern Sea Guard Moved to Special give them something fluffy like River Strider and shields as standard equipment.

Make all Reaver and Sea guard bows Recurve Bows that work the same as normal bows but give a S4 shot at short range (I think this would improve the Reavers and Sea guard making them more worth their points but encouraging us to move our units close to the enemy so that we can gain the bonus putting us more at risk of being charged and flanked or better defending against monster charges by lowering their numbers before they get impact hits on infantry.)

Swordmasters and White Lions Striking at Initiative ignoring always strike last rule for greatweapons.

(for all books) The Rider's Ward saves usable by monster mounts such as dragons.


Move Lion Chariots to Rare (I don't see this as being as common as a normal chariot would be)


Point drop or something added to the Bolt Thrower to make it worth it current point cost.




Haven't really been playing long enough to try and determine point costs and I'm not sure if the Recurve bow idea would actually backfire and instead just further encourage gun lines. Like I said at the being start ripping it apart and say what makes these bad ideas.

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 04:43
When using Phoenix Guard, your opponent has to reveal ALL the assassins in their army. and any other unit that uses likewise trickery. As well, that Master DE Assasin cannot infiltrate a HE unit. he is forced to join a DE unit.

Very interesting. How about Phoenix sight, or the Gaze of Asuryan?
All units within 12" of the unit must reveal all magic item, magic spells, and hidden character models such as assassins. This means that a Master DE assassin cannot start the game in the Phoenix Guard unit and additionally, if deployed in a unit with 12" of the Phoenix guard is automatically revealed!

TheDungen
07-05-2012, 07:28
I strongly oppose the movign LSG to special, they're suposed to be Eataine's replacement for citizen's militia not their elite infantery unlike the other elite high elf units.

cptcosmic
07-05-2012, 10:12
imho HE can keep their army wide ASF but not the way it is implemented currently, they should not ignore ASL from great weapons.
to compensate the loss of killing power for their elite infantry the could gain army wide rule to attack and shoot from additional rank with all weapons (just like spearselves can attack from an additional rank) and maybe other fluffy special rules.

instead moving SH to core they could instead receive a buff on their profile. they are after all nobles that bring their own equipment into battle.

cheaper prince, noble and mages would be great, especially the noble and prince.

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 10:23
imho HE can keep their army wide ASF but not the way it is implemented currently, they should not ignore ASL from great weapons.
to compensate the loss of killing power for their elite infantry the could gain army wide rule to attack and shoot from additional rank with all weapons (just like spearselves can attack from an additional rank) and maybe other fluffy special rules.

instead moving SH to core they could instead receive a buff on their profile. they are after all nobles that bring their own equipment into battle.

cheaper prince, noble and mages would be great, especially the noble and prince.

Hang on, but Empire can have Empire Knights + INNER CORE!!!! as Core units? Bloody crazy!

řidrek
07-05-2012, 17:40
Hang on, but Empire can have Empire Knights + INNER CORE!!!! as Core units? Bloody crazy!

I have to agree with Kurnous, both the Empire and Bretonnians get Core cavalry, why is it far fetched for them to be such with the HE?

I always saw them as the High Elves Version of Knight Errant, albeit a more well trained version. Here is the line from the HE army book page 51 that gave me this thought: "It is during their time fighting with the silver helms that the nobles of Ulthuan can truly prove themselves, and it is rare for an Elf Prince or noble to be given command of a force of any size unless he has proven his valour within the ranks of the Silver Helm Knights first." And it continues to describe them to have a similar mentality to Bretonnian Knights Errant with their brashness and desire to achieve glory.

The Low King
07-05-2012, 18:04
I have to agree with Kurnous, both the Empire and Bretonnians get Core cavalry, why is it far fetched for them to be such with the HE?

I always saw them as the High Elves Version of Knight Errant, albeit a more well trained version. Here is the line from the HE army book page 51 that gave me this thought: "It is during their time fighting with the silver helms that the nobles of Ulthuan can truly prove themselves, and it is rare for an Elf Prince or noble to be given command of a force of any size unless he has proven his valour within the ranks of the Silver Helm Knights first." And it continues to describe them to have a similar mentality to Bretonnian Knights Errant with their brashness and desire to achieve glory.

Because there are far more Brettonian and Empire nobles than there are elf nobles. Some knights arnt even nobles.

Brettonia is a feudal army build around knights, the Empire is filled with knightly orders of all sorts, often with their own armies.

pointyteeth
07-05-2012, 18:18
Just an idea; give all elves +1 Initiative and if they have great weapons ignore ASL but halve their initiative rounding up. Move Reavers and/or Silver helms to core. Add a new rare choice or two.

TheDungen
07-05-2012, 18:28
Silver helms used to be core but then everyone fielded all cavalery armys (higher movement meant getting to charge rather than being charged and heavy armour which was a upgrade back then meant they could actually take a beating) so they made them special.

I agree that they should move them back to core again, but they should make them light armour (for less points) with heavy armour as an upgrade (then costing roughly the same as they do now).

I'm a firm beliver in keeping stuff like this as upgrades rather than forcing you to take anything.

Francis
07-05-2012, 18:38
Just an idea; give all elves +1 Initiative and if they have great weapons ignore ASL but halve their initiative rounding up. Move Reavers and/or Silver helms to core. Add a new rare choice or two.

Sorry but this would completely ruin both White Lions and Swordmasters. If those two units were to strike after chaos warriors or deamons, or at the same time as ogres for that matter they would be utterly butchered.

Kloud13
07-05-2012, 18:45
Elves could easily do something like some of the 40K books where certain characters change the army list.

Got Blind Eltharion? May take a single unit of SwordMasters as Core.

Got Got Tyrion? Silverhelms become Core.

Got That Seaguard Commander guy? Seaguard become a point cheaper, and Bolt Throwers may be taken as Special.

Got the Everqueen? Maiden Guard become Core.

Alith Anar? Core Shadow Warriors.

Pheonix King? Can take single unit of PG as Core.

I'm just making stuff up, but allow elf players to choose a province of Ulthwan, and get bonus for it, and even a few restrictions.

řidrek
07-05-2012, 19:21
Sorry but this would completely ruin both White Lions and Swordmasters. If those two units were to strike after chaos warriors or deamons, or at the same time as ogres for that matter they would be utterly butchered.

I don't understand this, if you remove ASF, have them *ignore* ASL while giving all HE units +1 to their initiative it still has them striking first in most situations except against Heroes and Heralds as the base initiative of HE units is already 5. Isn't the best initiative for the Ogres 5 on their Heroes? Warriors of Chaos have ini 5 so even if you didn't get the +1 to ours they would be striking at the same time.


Elves could easily do something like some of the 40K books where certain characters change the army list.

Got Blind Eltharion? May take a single unit of SwordMasters as Core.

Got Got Tyrion? Silverhelms become Core.

Got That Seaguard Commander guy? Seaguard become a point cheaper, and Bolt Throwers may be taken as Special.

Got the Everqueen? Maiden Guard become Core.

Alith Anar? Core Shadow Warriors.

Pheonix King? Can take single unit of PG as Core.

I'm just making stuff up, but allow elf players to choose a province of Ulthwan, and get bonus for it, and even a few restrictions.

I don't like this as it forces you to use special characters to play how you want and many people like to play with normal Heroes and some tournaments ban their use. Thus we have an unplayable race and I think that 40k's already broken with the emphasis on named command.

R Man
07-05-2012, 23:11
Isn't that the whole point of a bolt thrower though?

Not really. It is just too expensive for this role. The Bolt Thrower either shoots one big shot, to little for the points (Its about 3 times more expensive than the Dwarf version) or it shoots S4 AP shots, which can still struggle to bring down heavy infantry and Cavalry. For the price it struggles to fill the needed role. The HE need something that can soften heavy Infantry and Knights to support their frail infantry. I do not believe the current Bolt Thrower does that.


Yeah the scorpion would certainly not be called a scorpion in a high elf army so what would we call a machine throwing large bolts? Maybe a bolt thrower?
Jokes aside the boltthrower is already much close to a scorpion than to a balista, if you want to add a artilery piece add a balista instead and move the bolt thrower to special. A balista could be shooting one shot that doenst scatter and gives a blasttemplate at say str 5 or 6. and causes d6 wounds. Kinda like a cannon but with much less str because it has much higher BS and doesnt scatter. (Cause i think cannons should have to roll to hit).

To be honest the name is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what it is called, what matters is what role it does. As it happens Bolt Throwers are split between a big anti-monster bolt and a horde slashing volley. Now, personally I don't mind the split fire itself, and the current Bolt Thrower isn't that bad at either roll. The problem is it has to pull double duty sometimes and it struggles to bring down heavier troops. It could be edited to fill the role so your idea isn't a bad one, and ideally any solution would help differentiate the roles of the various warmachines.

Petey
07-05-2012, 23:56
Elves could easily do something like some of the 40K books where certain characters change the army list.

Got Blind Eltharion? May take a single unit of SwordMasters as Core.

Got Got Tyrion? Silverhelms become Core.

Got That Seaguard Commander guy? Seaguard become a point cheaper, and Bolt Throwers may be taken as Special.

Got the Everqueen? Maiden Guard become Core.

Alith Anar? Core Shadow Warriors.

Pheonix King? Can take single unit of PG as Core.

I'm just making stuff up, but allow elf players to choose a province of Ulthwan, and get bonus for it, and even a few restrictions.

Do Not Want!

Seriously, I don't want my army to be special character dependant, thank you very much. I will settle for keeping them all special rather than have that. What's wrong with army selection now in any event, you can do most armies that you want with the rules as is (the notable exception is that silverhelms should be core).

I like the idea of choose province get buff, but the ******s at GW will never go for it. However, I bet we'll see a return of special tactics to HE princes though because of some of the stuff they make note of in BRB

ScytheSwathe
08-05-2012, 04:11
Lose ASF, Gain Ilithmar armour.
Ilithmar Armour: High elves with this rule (everything thats an elf wearing mundane armour) can reroll unmodified armour saves. Modified armour saves are taken as usual. Magic resistance 1.

Doesnt stop us being mullered by strong troops/real magic. Stops us dying in droves to weak hordes after we have attacked. And an army entirely with magic resistance (even if it is carp) could be fun

EDIT. Also opens up so fun with the characters and some of the more exotic magic items

Athlan na Dyr
08-05-2012, 09:20
Elves could easily do something like some of the 40K books where certain characters change the army list.
Got Blind Eltharion? May take a single unit of SwordMasters as Core.
Got Got Tyrion? Silverhelms become Core.
Got That Seaguard Commander guy? Seaguard become a point cheaper, and Bolt Throwers may be taken as Special.
Got the Everqueen? Maiden Guard become Core.
Alith Anar? Core Shadow Warriors.
Pheonix King? Can take single unit of PG as Core.
I'm just making stuff up, but allow elf players to choose a province of Ulthwan, and get bonus for it, and even a few restrictions.

I think you mean 'some of the Space Marine books'. A big fat chunk of 40k is space marines, but not all of it ;)
Not a fan, personally.


imho HE can keep their army wide ASF but not the way it is implemented currently, they should not ignore ASL from great weapons.
to compensate the loss of killing power for their elite infantry the could gain army wide rule to attack and shoot from additional rank with all weapons (just like spearselves can attack from an additional rank) and maybe other fluffy special rules.
instead moving SH to core they could instead receive a buff on their profile. they are after all nobles that bring their own equipment into battle.
cheaper prince, noble and mages would be great, especially the noble and prince.

The problem I have with the 'attack in an additional rank' is the ridiculously HU-*******-MONGOUS units you would have to take to get the full benefit of this rule. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think High Elves should be putting 50 White Lions or Phoenix Guard down in anything under 4000 points or more.


Note: the following is from above, but was wrapped in quote tags. To see what the responses in blue below were to, please scroll up (its post #161)
My first thought was +1 to hit, -1 to hit for enemy, but this is way overpowered and would make Elven characters extremely effective. A 6+ ward is hardly game breaking or overpowered, and the Elves are still fragile, just a little less so.

You are dead right it was all about simplicity. I can also imagine how opposing players would feel quite "dirty" about elves not only attacking in initiative order with a giant great weapons, but then ASF & the re-rolls it usually gives! Also makes HE players think about how they are going to arm their characters! No more Great weapon being the easy choice!

I knew that it would be too complicated hence my note. I just couldn't find a simple way to word it better/seem simpler - it works simply in my head but when read out it seems confusing. I also though about amending the shield wall to remove 1 rank of supporting attacks but I had already hit post.
As a further note I wrote some advanced warhammer rules 10 years ago where all races could form a shield wall (with a leadership test). High elves could automatically form one and still march 8" (all to do with the fluff about how swift and disciplined HE formations are).

I would still let them move, just not as fast. After all even a Roman Testudo could advance. I'll retry below.

Shield Wall
A High Elf unit with this ability must declare that they are using the Shield wall formation at the beginning of a turn, and only if unengaged in combat. A unit in a Shield wall cannot march. Both the unit and any enemy engaged toward the front facing lose one rank of Supporting Attacks (so normal infantry attack with one rank, horded infantry 2 and so on and so forth.). In addition the unit in Shieldwall formation adds +1 to it's armour save representing the extra protection afforded by the overlapping shields.

The unit counts as being stubborn whilst in combat. However if they lose combat by more than their rank bonus the Shieldwall is broken and they cannot reform and declare a new shieldwall unless they are unengaged.
Additionally if an enemy unit loses combat by less then their own rank bonus they do not flee.
A Unit in Shieldwall formation can elect to pursue a broken enemy but roll 3D6 picking the lowest 2 dice. I they pursue the Shieldwall is considered broken.

NOTE: I thought adding a parry would make them too sturdy.

With Archers I consider letting them shoot twice if stationary. Not sure if this would be OP or not (please let me know!) But to be honest they would still be decent supporting troops in combat. You are probably right though 10 points would be ok, 11 with light armour.
LSG you are probably right - 12 and same with Silver Helms.
High elves have too few choices in Core. Silver Helms are a must in core at the very least and I was torn about Reavers, I still am.

Overall you are correct though, I took pains not to create a 'Fan list' which all tend to turn out to be completely broken on close analysis.

I think you are generally right. I would love Shadow warrior to get shields back. Then they would have a 5+ AS with 5++ (Ward + parry save stack). Chariots - not a bad idea

I believe High Elves will get Eagle Riders that will be called Wind Lords or something like that. It is mentioned in the fluff that they were used to patrol and bear messages across the huge Elven Empire.

I haven't come up with better names and explanations as of yet to my sadness. Thinking of relating each sword form to an Aspect of Khaine OR a dangerous creature. Remember my version of SoA is just a normal ASF. Hence with great weapon they only strike in initiative order, no ASF and no re-roll associated. I can imagine other elven troops would butcher them (Striking first and with re-rolls!) hence Swift was the option to make Sword Masters strike at an equal level. Pierce is a lesser option, but I thought that it is still an option against very heavy cavalry.

This version of the unit is still seriously good and I was considering putting them in the rare section with the option to count 1 unit as special per Arch Mage.

Again I think you are correct. 14-15 points would be better. Not sure about the extra +1AS in combat - can see alot of none HE players whine about how the fragile elves are not fragile enough!

Might pull it back 1 point. I expect Black Guard to change or become more expesnive come 8th Edition. Might also add +1MR to unit including characters who join.

ou really think re-rolling 1's on PD and DD is really that bad? I think it gives Elves a nice edge without being Overpowered - after all they are superior natural magic users than other races AND they have much longer to study! Otherwise I barely feel HE magic is that much better than others such as say Empire, if you factor out back items (Banner of Sorcery, BoH). I shouldn't need to take silly magic items to have a racial edge which should be natural. Elf mages are also more expensive. How about re-rolling 1 roll of 1 per casting or Dispel attempt?
I am guessing Slann can just get a +1 on casting value on top amongst other silliness...


Right, my 'interesting...' comment was mainly with how stackable ward saves would work out with the Phoenix Guard (the game of warhammer does not require 3++ unit saves. Neither does 40k in my humble opinion...)

With the moving shield wall, I'm assuming that the elves are overlapping their shields. That would mean that the man behind the front line is right up close to the front, with his arms over the other guys shoulders. Now, aside from the fact that the front line can't see, moving anywhere quickly in that sort of position will be an absolute pain and almost certain to cause a break in formation. Even for the greek hoplites (with one line of shields) the only army that would regularly dare move in a direction other than straight forward near to the enemy were the Spartans (which is why their use of the shield-bearing hoplite formation was regarded as the best). The Roman Testudo never had overlapping shields, merely one layer at the front and the other ranks held theirs overhead.
From a game perspective, this was to balance out the stubborn and parry (powerful, but can be avoided to some degree).

With your new take on the shieldwall rule, I dislike the 'if the enemy loses by less than their rank bonus...' bit and the lack of parry. The first seems a bit off (if they lose by less than their rank bonus, they have a good chance of not breaking anyway) and the parry is to give the unit some utility against more elite opposition. To be honest, its the only tarpitty unit in your altered list, and a 4+ 5++ isn't really that bad, so long as their are limits to their mobility.
As a further notion, I think some caveat that the shieldwall does not work against flank or rear attack would be good to implement.
I do like the 'if the elves lose by less than their rank bonus...' bit (TBH, I loooove it).

Shooting twice for archers seems a bit 'Repeater Crossbowmen' to me (and 'white dark elves with less spikes' is hardly what the High Elves should be). And I laugh at the notion of high elf archers as combat troops in anywhere other than the flank or rear.

I do like your organisation of the list (i.e. what is in core, special, rare...) and like your conservative approach.

With the Sword Masters, giving them ASF as a power still makes them strike in initiative order with no rerolls (SoA + ASF + GW = strike in initiative order still). Pierce is decidedly meh compared to rerolls to hit against basically anything. They are very killy but still die by the handful to any shooting/ return attacks. I'd leave them in special, they are reasonably common and Arch Mages really don't need any more buffs...

For the White Lions, the change to lion cloaks was to be more in line with the way sea dragon cloaks work. You could have a point on keeping the mechanics as current though.

As to the magic phase suggestion; I am extremely cautious about touching the magic phase with anything other than +X to cast, or the odd +X dice. Rerolling messes around with probability and can quickly lead to buff inflation (as dramatically portrayed below):
Player 1: you get to reroll ones? I want to do that cause my chaos mages are the best and tzeentch blessed them, so they get a +1 to cast and loremaster...
Player 2: yeah, well my mage is a tzeentch daemon! He should get to re-roll any roll and have +1 to cast and can nick spells from anyone else
Player 3: Well I've got a slaan. He should be able to automatically cast a lore per turn.
Player 4: Lord Croak. I should be able to toss a dozen large blasts at the enemy army and remove anything under the marker...
Player 5: I've got vampire counts/ Orcs and goblins/ Ogres/ etc. and can't do any of that crap. The F do I do?
and so on...
Leave it at a unique lore (High) that should be very good, and maybe the good ol +1 to dispel, with a couple of things in the list that offer bonuses to cast or whatnot.

cptcosmic
08-05-2012, 09:35
Hang on, but Empire can have Empire Knights + INNER CORE!!!! as Core units? Bloody crazy!
nothing wrong with Silverhelms in special selection if they had the proper stats in the profile, thats the problem. up their stats to be better then the usual HE citizen and it is fine. HE core consists of spears and archers, that is their tradition and I dont see a reason to break it, I would rather improve those choices and make the core more solid.



The problem I have with the 'attack in an additional rank' is the ridiculously HU-*******-MONGOUS units you would have to take to get the full benefit of this rule. To be perfectly blunt, I don't think High Elves should be putting 50 White Lions or Phoenix Guard down in anything under 4000 points or more.
nothing wrong with large units, they are after all easy to counter in smaller games. and you dont have to take large units. you can also field smaller units like you do now. 21 7x3 formation gives you 22 S6 attacks or you can just go for blocks thus you can have ranks and still hurt alot. I dont see how this is bad. loss of rerolls hurt BUT you can give them any buff you like.

e.g. lion cloak could apply to melee too. WL could also receive throwing weapons they can also use while charging. spear elves could get their parry save even when using spears and so on.... so many possibilities to make the units more interesting and still very killy.

Kurnous the Hunter
08-05-2012, 12:47
With your new take on the shieldwall rule, I dislike the 'if the enemy loses by less than their rank bonus...' bit and the lack of parry. The first seems a bit off (if they lose by less than their rank bonus, they have a good chance of not breaking anyway) and the parry is to give the unit some utility against more elite opposition. To be honest, its the only tarpitty unit in your altered list, and a 4+ 5++ isn't really that bad, so long as their are limits to their mobility.
As a further notion, I think some caveat that the shieldwall does not work against flank or rear attack would be good to implement.
I do like the 'if the elves lose by less than their rank bonus...' bit (TBH, I loooove it).

I can see/feel the whine already of how durable the unit is. Thanks for the compliment on the rank bonus but I feel the special rule should apply to both parties. I would probably get rid of stubborn as well. Against hard hitters they should be Steadfast anyway, and against lesser more numerous units, should not lose combat and if they do not by much (covered by rank bonus rule).

Also your comment about losing by less then rank bonus would mean they probably wouldn't break....-2 or -3 LD on average leadership means a reasonably strong chance...

Shooting twice for archers seems a bit 'Repeater Crossbowmen' to me (and 'white dark elves with less spikes' is hardly what the High Elves should be). And I laugh at the notion of high elf archers as combat troops in anywhere other than the flank or rear.

I was inspired by the wood elf unit in Shadow of the Horned Rat and shooting being initiative based. Since elves are double average initiative, I thought well, double the shots! Still based on standing still though. I guess I got jack of losing shooting duel's with crossbows

I do like your organisation of the list (i.e. what is in core, special, rare...) and like your conservative approach.

With the Sword Masters, giving them ASF as a power still makes them strike in initiative order with no rerolls (SoA + ASF + GW = strike in initiative order still). Pierce is decidedly meh compared to rerolls to hit against basically anything. They are very killy but still die by the handful to any shooting/ return attacks. I'd leave them in special, they are reasonably common and Arch Mages really don't need any more buffs...

Yeah I suppose so.

For the White Lions, the change to lion cloaks was to be more in line with the way sea dragon cloaks work. You could have a point on keeping the mechanics as current though.

As to the magic phase suggestion; I am extremely cautious about touching the magic phase with anything other than +X to cast, or the odd +X dice. Rerolling messes around with probability and can quickly lead to buff inflation (as dramatically portrayed below):
Player 1: you get to reroll ones? I want to do that cause my chaos mages are the best and tzeentch blessed them, so they get a +1 to cast and loremaster...
Player 2: yeah, well my mage is a tzeentch daemon! He should get to re-roll any roll and have +1 to cast and can nick spells from anyone else
Player 3: Well I've got a slaan. He should be able to automatically cast a lore per turn.
Player 4: Lord Croak. I should be able to toss a dozen large blasts at the enemy army and remove anything under the marker...
Player 5: I've got vampire counts/ Orcs and goblins/ Ogres/ etc. and can't do any of that crap. The F do I do?
and so on...
Leave it at a unique lore (High) that should be very good, and maybe the good ol +1 to dispel, with a couple of things in the list that offer bonuses to cast or whatnot.

I still don't think it is all that powerful. Hopefully there will be some skills that HE can purchase for their mages. I also doubt that High magic will be as good as Shadow or Life, which goes to show the Colleges and magic in general is slightly OP in this edition. I can see what you are saying though.

I still believe general consensus on magical power is Slann>HE>Tzeentch~DE>other Chaos>Necro>all others.

It also seems like ASF + ward save is not popular.

How about this for left field.....

Elves re-roll 1's to hit. Opposition re-roll 6's to hit.

Not as powerful as ASF offensively, not as powerful as -1 to hit defensively, and is interesting and different.

TheDungen
08-05-2012, 12:54
As for the bolt thrower the reason it costs 100 points i that it used to cost 50 back in 5th (or was it 4th, -96 anyway). That was so massivly OP that they changed it, then they havent dared tough it again. A balista would makig the bolt thrower chaper an option while a elite archer unit would make keeping in the same pointswise and buffing it to match its points the better option.

I just realised that charging no longer causes you to stike first, as such i'd liek to dismiss armywide ASF altogether. I say Let WL strike last and make lion cloaks and HA give them a 4+ armour save and then let swordmasters stike in initative order. they both have great weapons but they deal with the problem in diffrent ways.

we'll stike before most people anyway because of high I values. And fewer special rules is always a desiarble outcome. Removing SoA also means that we can have room for an army wide special rule again. And my bet is again parry.

Athlan na Dyr
08-05-2012, 13:15
With your new take on the shieldwall rule, I dislike the 'if the enemy loses by less than their rank bonus...' bit and the lack of parry. The first seems a bit off (if they lose by less than their rank bonus, they have a good chance of not breaking anyway) and the parry is to give the unit some utility against more elite opposition. To be honest, its the only tarpitty unit in your altered list, and a 4+ 5++ isn't really that bad, so long as their are limits to their mobility.
As a further notion, I think some caveat that the shieldwall does not work against flank or rear attack would be good to implement.
I do like the 'if the elves lose by less than their rank bonus...' bit (TBH, I loooove it).


I can see/feel the whine already of how durable the unit is. Thanks for the compliment on the rank bonus but I feel the special rule should apply to both parties. I would probably get rid of stubborn as well. Against hard hitters they should be Steadfast anyway, and against lesser more numerous units, should not lose combat and if they do not by much (covered by rank bonus rule).

Also your comment about losing by less then rank bonus would mean they probably wouldn't break....-2 or -3 LD on average leadership means a reasonably strong chance...

Right, for 10 ppm I should bloody well hope that they're able to take a few hits if a) they're the only unit able to do so (bar seaguard)) and b) there are disadvantages (movement(?), can be lost if beat by more than rank bonus (god I love that), doesn't work on flank(?), pursuit rolls(?)) and so has to be used with some skill.
As for stubborn, it's just a bit more of a guarantee and a bit of fluffiness
and finally, if you're beating something with spears they are either buffed to all hell or are versing poor opposition. Which means you should have the advantage of winning (break the enemy) or they should be steadfast. Getting rid of the 'if you win by less than enemy rank bonus' is a way to cut down on the length of a (brilliant and fitting) rule and a slightly strange disadvantage.


Shooting twice for archers seems a bit 'Repeater Crossbowmen' to me (and 'white dark elves with less spikes' is hardly what the High Elves should be). And I laugh at the notion of high elf archers as combat troops in anywhere other than the flank or rear.


I was inspired by the wood elf unit in Shadow of the Horned Rat and shooting being initiative based. Since elves are double average initiative, I thought well, double the shots! Still based on standing still though. I guess I got jack of losing shooting duel's with crossbows

We all know that feel bro. Wait until both elf books are redone and that should be sorted out.


I do like your organisation of the list (i.e. what is in core, special, rare...) and like your conservative approach.

With the Sword Masters, giving them ASF as a power still makes them strike in initiative order with no rerolls (SoA + ASF + GW = strike in initiative order still). Pierce is decidedly meh compared to rerolls to hit against basically anything. They are very killy but still die by the handful to any shooting/ return attacks. I'd leave them in special, they are reasonably common and Arch Mages really don't need any more buffs...


Yeah I suppose so.


For the White Lions, the change to lion cloaks was to be more in line with the way sea dragon cloaks work. You could have a point on keeping the mechanics as current though.

As to the magic phase suggestion; I am extremely cautious about touching the magic phase with anything other than +X to cast, or the odd +X dice. Rerolling messes around with probability and can quickly lead to buff inflation (as dramatically portrayed below):
Player 1: you get to reroll ones? I want to do that cause my chaos mages are the best and tzeentch blessed them, so they get a +1 to cast and loremaster...
Player 2: yeah, well my mage is a tzeentch daemon! He should get to re-roll any roll and have +1 to cast and can nick spells from anyone else
Player 3: Well I've got a slaan. He should be able to automatically cast a lore per turn.
Player 4: Lord Croak. I should be able to toss a dozen large blasts at the enemy army and remove anything under the marker...
Player 5: I've got vampire counts/ Orcs and goblins/ Ogres/ etc. and can't do any of that crap. The F do I do?
and so on...
Leave it at a unique lore (High) that should be very good, and maybe the good ol +1 to dispel, with a couple of things in the list that offer bonuses to cast or whatnot.


I still don't think it is all that powerful. Hopefully there will be some skills that HE can purchase for their mages. I also doubt that High magic will be as good as Shadow or Life, which goes to show the Colleges and magic in general is slightly OP in this edition. I can see what you are saying though.
I still believe general consensus on magical power is Slann>HE>Tzeentch~DE>other Chaos>Necro>all others.

It also seems like ASF + ward save is not popular.
How about this for left field.....
Elves re-roll 1's to hit. Opposition re-roll 6's to hit.
Not as powerful as ASF offensively, not as powerful as -1 to hit defensively, and is interesting and different.

It may or may not be all that powerful, I haven't done any testing or whatnot, but its just what it represents (shennanigans with the dice used in casting) which every man and his chaos hound is going to want (there will be whining :shifty: ).
Why? Well because your consensus on magical power is unfortunately based on opinion and most die hard fans of an army are going to disagree with you.

As for what is popular and isn't, that is entirely based on opinion. Form your own and stick to it, for I will guarantee you that you will find someone who agrees you and someone who doesn't.
As for your ASF substitute, its really wonky with poison and stacks ridiculously well with glittering scales and/ or fencer's blades.

Francis
08-05-2012, 13:35
I don't understand this, if you remove ASF, have them *ignore* ASL while giving all HE units +1 to their initiative it still has them striking first in most situations except against Heroes and Heralds as the base initiative of HE units is already 5. Isn't the best initiative for the Ogres 5 on their Heroes? Warriors of Chaos have ini 5 so even if you didn't get the +1 to ours they would be striking at the same time.

Please read the quote before commenting on a comment. He wants helfs to ignore ASL only at the cost of halving their initiative rounding up. That would give the White Lions and Swordmasters (with his new proposed I of 6) an effective initiative of 3 making them strike simultaneously with ogres and state troops, and after all WE, DE, WoC, most deamons and even clanrats. Now tell me that wouldn't ruin them...

Kurnous the Hunter
08-05-2012, 15:20
It may or may not be all that powerful, I haven't done any testing or whatnot, but its just what it represents (shennanigans with the dice used in casting) which every man and his chaos hound is going to want (there will be whining :shifty: ).
Why? Well because your consensus on magical power is unfortunately based on opinion and most die hard fans of an army are going to disagree with you.

As for what is popular and isn't, that is entirely based on opinion. Form your own and stick to it, for I will guarantee you that you will find someone who agrees you and someone who doesn't.

I understand what you are saying. Still believe that most reasonable WHFB fans would rank magic that way though.

As for your ASF substitute, its really wonky with poison and stacks ridiculously well with glittering scales and/ or fencer's blades.

I realised that it would mess up poison, but I didn't think about those 2 items (I don't usually use them and don't have many use them against me)
Still the offensive power of such a character would be extremely limited, and it would still be a T3 Elf. An Ogre or Black Orc character would still be superior candidates for those items (they can still wound stuff and are already resilient!

I know with that exact combination that WS4 would be 1 in 36 to hit, but WS5 changes that to 2 in 9 which is not completely awful.
It is still so much better than forcing enemy to re-roll hits or -1 to hit unless both items are taken together.

I have shot out the math in a spread sheet and forcing equal or slightly worse WS (needing a 4+) to re-roll 6's is roughly the same as a 6+ ward. Re-rolling 6's is 40%, 6+ward is 41.6667% to hit elf.

If enemy has higher WS 62.5% vs 55.5556% so the ward is better protection.

If enemy is say WS2 goblin or peasant vs Elven elite of WS5 or more the re-roll 6's is more powerful....22.2223% chance vs 27.7778%.

Overall it is better against low WS Tarpit hordes, roughly equal against similar WS, and worse against higher WS.

The rule could always state that any modifiers to hit cancel out the effect of the rule, so a +1 to hit or re-roll to hit cancels the re-roll 1, or a -1 to hit or re-roll to hit the elf would cancel out the re-roll 6's against the elf. This to prevent stacking cheese with re-rolls (including potential ASF) or +1/-1 Modifiers.



Still regarding the above I can see the games designers thinking that opponents of Elves would be particularly annoyed at having to re-roll "good dice".
My problem was with the ability of stacking the 6+ward with a 4+ward of a magic item to create a 3++ which everyone seems to hate. (even though I see it as compensation for puny T3 on relatively expensive character). Creating another form of protection that transfers across from RnF through to Characters is what I was trying to achieve.

řidrek
08-05-2012, 18:20
Please read the quote before commenting on a comment. He wants helfs to ignore ASL only at the cost of halving their initiative rounding up. That would give the White Lions and Swordmasters (with his new proposed I of 6) an effective initiative of 3 making them strike simultaneously with ogres and state troops, and after all WE, DE, WoC, most deamons and even clanrats. Now tell me that wouldn't ruin them...

Sorry about that I miss read his quote when I commented thus as you pointed out de-validating my comment.

sysy16
08-05-2012, 18:30
The big problem ultimatley is that in my mind, folks are very quick to cry "Lose ASF"

I understand this as I get tired listening to opponents who complain my HE army is over powered or broken. Just to clarify I normally run a star dragon list, no level 4 or book so how my local club would react to Teclis or the Book or even the combo almost invulernable wizard cloak/items I don't know.

Fine, drop ASF. But the fact is with step up, HE are still T3 5+ save. A 6+ ward is not going to do much. I much prefer HE to be deadly in H2H and making them more defensive does not seem the way to go for me.

I like them fragile and elite killers.

I love my opponents fearing swordmasters and white lions. At the end of the day, if the took ASF from all the army... fair enough. But swordmasters are called Swordmasters for a reason! Lets keep them awesome. And if you take ASF from white lions you'd better make them harder to kill or at least strike in "I" order

I really just want our new book to be an logical change from before. No sweeping changes and stupid new drake (etc units)

TheDungen
08-05-2012, 22:01
Lose ASF has nothing to do with it being overpowered, with step up it no longer serves its purpose. We need something that serves the original purpose of SoA better than its current effect.


it was implemented for a very specific purpose, its a pretty new idea, there's no reason we should keep it if it can no longer fullfil that purpose.

Torga_DW
08-05-2012, 22:43
I think the main problem is agreeing on the actual theme of the high elf army. Which will ultimately be up to gw to resolve, especially as we don't seem to be reaching majority consensus here. Everyone seems to be seeing it a little different.

Myself, i see high elves as a high cost, elite army, that at the end of the day is only s3 t3 (on average). Which to me puts them about par with dwarfs for equipment (Little or no armour strikes me as a woodelf theme), and gives them a special rule or two, pushing their basic prices up. The rest i posted earlier.

The Low King
08-05-2012, 22:51
All elf armies seem to be high damage but weaker defences

R Man
08-05-2012, 23:02
As for the bolt thrower the reason it costs 100 points i that it used to cost 50 back in 5th (or was it 4th, -96 anyway). That was so massivly OP that they changed it, then they havent dared tough it again. A balista would makig the bolt thrower chaper an option while a elite archer unit would make keeping in the same pointswise and buffing it to match its points the better option.

But that was a decade and a half ago. The game has changed somewhat, especially with units generally getting cheaper and more plentiful. Surely a reduction would not hurt much? Or making it better? Give it an extra point of Strength and 8 multiple shots instead of 6. Would that do?

BloodiedSword
08-05-2012, 23:32
I like them fragile and elite killers.


This sounds nice, except that in order to maintain balance for an army that causes massive enemy casualties, this would require elves to also die in droves. Not very "oh woe, for we are a dying race".

Awesome doesn't necessarily have to mean "massively killy".

Hoshiyami
09-05-2012, 01:12
They touched it. Back then, its multishoot was 4 S4 shoots without AS that hurtled through rows and the 'unishoot' was S5/d4.

6th edition boosted bolt thrower S to 6 and changed its multishoot to the current rules (imho, it was quite a nerf for the multishoot). Back then, it could make sense that a bolt thrower were so expensive compared with 'normal' ones. 4 no AS multi-row shoots with the right dices were fearful. Nowadays, 6 hand gunner shoots (albeit long range and bs 4) are a bit meh.

So, the story was "special elven bolt thrower" gets multishoot -> special bolt thrower is OP -> double the price -> 6th ed. -> normal bolt thrower is boosted, "special attack of special elven bolt thrower" is (oppinable) nerfed, keep the price...

What would I like to see? Just a 'normal' priced (50) bolt thrower without that rule would be nice for once. 60 points BS4 & 4 wounds, dwarven bolt throwers aren't hated so much, are they?

R Man
09-05-2012, 02:46
Hoshiyami
Re: High Elf wishlisting...

They touched it. Back then, its multishoot was 4 S4 shoots without AS that hurtled through rows and the 'unishoot' was S5/d4.

6th edition boosted bolt thrower S to 6 and changed its multishoot to the current rules (imho, it was quite a nerf for the multishoot). Back then, it could make sense that a bolt thrower were so expensive compared with 'normal' ones. 4 no AS multi-row shoots with the right dices were fearful. Nowadays, 6 hand gunner shoots (albeit long range and bs 4) are a bit meh.

So, the story was "special elven bolt thrower" gets multishoot -> special bolt thrower is OP -> double the price -> 6th ed. -> normal bolt thrower is boosted, "special attack of special elven bolt thrower" is (oppinable) nerfed, keep the price...

What would I like to see? Just a 'normal' priced (50) bolt thrower without that rule would be nice for once. 60 points BS4 & 4 wounds, dwarven bolt throwers aren't hated so much, are they?

Well, for me the problem is it does nothing well, at least not for its price. They could split the Bolt Thrower into 2 different units, one that shoots a single Bolt and one that shoots the multi-shot. Then perhaps the roles can be exaggerated. They could also perhaps be mounted in a Chariot. I think the Romans actually did that. Not sure if it would actually help anything but it might be interesting.

Hoshiyami
09-05-2012, 03:33
Well, for me the problem is it does nothing well, at least not for its price. They could split the Bolt Thrower into 2 different units, one that shoots a single Bolt and one that shoots the multi-shot. Then perhaps the roles can be exaggerated. They could also perhaps be mounted in a Chariot. I think the Romans actually did that. Not sure if it would actually help anything but it might be interesting.

Yup, I have the same feeling. You pay too much for what you get.

I have a bad feeling for splitting them and exaggerate their roles, though. Special warmachine rules are a pain for other players (at least if they don't know the army) and opens a door for broken rules (like the old 4 no AS shots for 50 points). Streamlined 'plain old bolt thrower' at its old price, just a sub-optimum ranged monster killer, leaving this mass-killer option for... something different.

A charriot bolt thrower could do some damage to cavalry getting flank shoots, but it would be something so 'just-this-case' it would be very difficult to give a right cost. It could make a superb model, though...

Havock
09-05-2012, 03:48
Soa = ASF in first round of combat. Would actually fit them if you want to follow the 'classic' LotR opening scene where they easily dispatch the first wave, then get bogged down in melee.

Bolt throwers gain protection against shooting like skaven weapon teams when close to a unit of HE.

Bring_Back_Chaos_Dwarfs?
09-05-2012, 04:33
High Elves could use some more rare choices (obviously). I have been wanting to throw this out here: large suits of animated armor constructs (yes, playing off wraith units, and no, I don't play 40k) that are fielded as monstrous infantry. Kind of like the Cynwall's Nova Construct:
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac348/RackhamMiniatures/Elfs%20-%20Cynwall/CynwllNova1.jpg
Goes with the High Elves theme of a dwindling race; got to make due with what you have and use superior magic to animate suits of fighting armor. You could easily make them in line with HE standards: fast, skilled, kind of fragile. Maybe T4 but low initiative (for elves), perhaps I3. Or whatever you think would work. Man, those cynwall nova's are a cool idea. When I saw them I thought, why don't High Elves have that?! (There are plenty reasons not to, I know). And yeah, I love Rackham's Confrontation. Word.

Kurnous the Hunter
09-05-2012, 14:26
High Elves could use some more rare choices (obviously). I have been wanting to throw this out here: large suits of animated armor constructs (yes, playing off wraith units, and no, I don't play 40k) that are fielded as monstrous infantry. Kind of like the Cynwall's Nova Construct:
http://i914.photobucket.com/albums/ac348/RackhamMiniatures/Elfs%20-%20Cynwall/CynwllNova1.jpg
Goes with the High Elves theme of a dwindling race; got to make due with what you have and use superior magic to animate suits of fighting armor. You could easily make them in line with HE standards: fast, skilled, kind of fragile. Maybe T4 but low initiative (for elves), perhaps I3. Or whatever you think would work. Man, those cynwall nova's are a cool idea. When I saw them I thought, why don't High Elves have that?! (There are plenty reasons not to, I know). And yeah, I love Rackham's Confrontation. Word.

You would thing so, same with dwarves using runes but at the moment they don't. Instead Tomb Kings have statues of every sort coming to life. Seriously WTF - couldn't they be more like stuff from the Mummy movies? No wonder I started hating warhammer more after 5th edition, 6th and 7th really pissed me off, 8th looks good from base rules but then ruins it with STUPID units for Empire and some crazy **** for Ogre Kingdoms and others - not much of it makes a whole lot of sense other than lets flog some new models - lets invent some crazy new rules for them (all the new empire ****) or give them insane stats (Mournfangs and to a lesser extent DemiGryphs)

Kurnous the Hunter
09-05-2012, 14:27
All elf armies seem to be high damage but weaker defences

Except in this edition the damage is closer to mediocre and the defense has gone to cr@p.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 15:03
Except in this edition the damage is closer to mediocre and the defense has gone to cr@p.

They are still one of the most killy armies, easily up there with Chaos warriors and savage orcs in terms of sheer damage. They are certainly not mediocre.

As for defence: they are just as hard to kill (if not harder due to high WS and decent armour) as every other T3 unit out there. T4 would mean they would take 20-30% less damage, wich is not that big a deal, certainly not as bad as you seem to want to make out.


Nowadays, 6 hand gunner shoots (albeit long range and bs 4) are a bit meh.

6 handgunner shots are worth 70 points and im pretty sure someone worked out on this thred that the bolt throwers damage is equivelent to about 90 points of handgunners....that was at their old price.


This sounds nice, except that in order to maintain balance for an army that causes massive enemy casualties, this would require elves to also die in droves. Not very "oh woe, for we are a dying race".

Awesome doesn't necessarily have to mean "massively killy".

This is warhammer.

All elves die at the same rate. Anvils and Warmachines that have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years blow up every battle. Slan, some of the oldest and rarest creatures in existance, die pretty often.

Fluff often means little for things like that.

TheDungen
09-05-2012, 22:56
The thing is that to be able to counteract their vulnerability with killyness now that there is a step up rule they need to break and run down the enemy in one turn (or destroy them outright) which isn't possible without breaking the game balance totally.

as for the bolt thrower, they need to define its role more and price it for its role, then then add something heavier or something lighter for other purposes. Right now they're kinda what obliterators is for CSM, they're flexible but they cost to much for each specific role because of it. I'd rather have a cheaper unit that is more focused.

as for the constructs as MI i like the idea but there's one problem, the High elves in Warcraft does it. and GW is trying to define their IP away from what others do which makes it more unlikely. Its also similar to the Eldar wraithlord and GW is trying to make Warhammer armies different from their 40k counterparts. But hey its still better than Lion cavalry or drake riders.

Hoshiyami
09-05-2012, 23:55
6 handgunner shots are worth 70 points and im pretty sure someone worked out on this thred that the bolt throwers damage is equivelent to about 90 points of handgunners....that was at their old price.


Excuse me, good sir, is there any table I don't know about with the equivalence handgunner shoot - points? I can't see where that 6 shots - 70 points come from :S

Anyway, warmachines with basic troops attacks aren't meh in your book? In mine certainly they are.

Trains_Get_Robbed
10-05-2012, 06:07
They are still one of the most killy armies, easily up there with Chaos warriors and savage orcs in terms of sheer damage. They are certainly not mediocre.

As for defence: they are just as hard to kill (if not harder due to high WS and decent armour) as every other T3 unit out there. T4 would mean they would take 20-30% less damage, wich is not that big a deal, certainly not as bad as you seem to want to make out.



6 handgunner shots are worth 70 points and im pretty sure someone worked out on this thred that the bolt throwers damage is equivelent to about 90 points of handgunners....that was at their old price.



This is warhammer.

All elves die at the same rate. Anvils and Warmachines that have been around for hundreds or even thousands of years blow up every battle. Slan, some of the oldest and rarest creatures in existance, die pretty often.

Fluff often means little for things like that.

I've already stated a few pages back that H.E in particular don't kill that much (2 ranks of 7 White Lions for example kill only around 10 models assuming 3's to hit), and henceforth anyone suggesting or whining about H.E's killing too much is rather ignorant of basic maths/H.E formations or playing large enough point games in which a H.E general can field units of nastiness (40 W.Ls etc. . .).

Thus, I will restate, H.E units are generally 20 or so bodies give or take (5 dudes) depending on the unit, and are all regulated to a single attack save for S.M and D.Ps. Speaking of S.M and D.Ps they are the only multi-attack models in the H.E book that aren't monsters/chariots/charcters, and are worth taking (Shadow Warriors serve no purpose).

As we have all stated numerous times before H.E are essentially in our minds: an elite force that not only out-skills and outwits it's opponents through tactics on the battlefield, but also survives through their superior knowledge of magicks, and glass-hammery shooting/combat abilities. If G.W can replicate this in someway -which in mind currently exists to a decent extent- then they have succeeded.

TheDungen
11-05-2012, 17:43
I just don't want them to rely to much on magic, prefer to the high elf general wielding his armies as a lesser being wields his sword.

and especially not on high magic. what's the point of letting us take all the lores if we must take high magic to be playable.

Von Wibble
13-05-2012, 10:00
I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to have high magic simply represented with no high lore, just a couple of free spells all wizards get (drain magic and shield of saphery), plus the ability to take any lores signature spell instead of what you roll. Mages would need to be costed appropriately for such perks (+40 pts but make sure the high spells aren't above 7+ casting value in effect). Gives them good control of magic even with low level wizards, but the mages are expensive and fragile.

Mannfred
13-05-2012, 12:41
Ummmm:

1) Removing speed DEFS!!!!
2) Swordmasters should be given something like the Blackguard "Warrior Elite" special rule - just re-roll to hit flat out.
3) No Monstrous Cavalry for High Elves; EVEN if it's Lion Cavalry.....and No Drake Knights.....UNLESS it's to boast Dragon Princes with str4 - that would make them very monster-ish.
4) Sea Guard have heavy armour standard, to distinguish them from Spearmen.....
5) White Lions can just be given a White Lion Axe; ie +2 strength and not great weapon. or a better name.
6) Dragon Mages be reworked; or just be generally cheaper. like about 70pts cheaper and made to be t5 and not t6. Especially with the 25% ratios they just eat up too many points....
7) Would not mind seeing a stardragon with straight up 7s for all it's stats...like how the moondragon is mostly 6s, yeaaa so it can take at least 1 cannon ball.
8) Magic items keep it to 14 items. So just one more item in each section in comparison to other armies.

The Low King
13-05-2012, 16:36
Excuse me, good sir, is there any table I don't know about with the equivalence handgunner shoot - points? I can't see where that 6 shots - 70 points come from :S

Anyway, warmachines with basic troops attacks aren't meh in your book? In mine certainly they are.

Handgunners (BS 3) are 11 points now arnt they? 6x11 is 66 points (roughly 70 points)
Dwarf hangunners (+1 to hit) are 14 points each


I've already stated a few pages back that H.E in particular don't kill that much (2 ranks of 7 White Lions for example kill only around 10 models assuming 3's to hit), and henceforth anyone suggesting or whining about H.E's killing too much is rather ignorant of basic maths/H.E formations or playing large enough point games in which a H.E general can field units of nastiness (40 W.Ls etc. . .).

Only 10 kills from 14 attacks? damn, how terrible. (I cant think of many other infantry short of Chaos warriors/chosen, Savage orc biguns or wardancers that are going to kill that many from 14 guys, and they certainly wont manage it from 14 attacks..)


Thus, I will restate, H.E units are generally 20 or so bodies give or take (5 dudes) depending on the unit, and are all regulated to a single attack save for S.M and D.Ps. Speaking of S.M and D.Ps they are the only multi-attack models in the H.E book that aren't monsters/chariots/charcters, and are worth taking (Shadow Warriors serve no purpose).


So take bigger units? My dwarfs only have one attack each, low initiative and always strikes....thats how i get around it. My units (when not in horde) have max 14 attacks (15 with a champ)...

If you want to take units of 15 (although 25 swordmasters seems pretty scary to me) and play MSU then thats up to you, you will however suffer once you start taking casualties.

R Man
14-05-2012, 00:03
Handgunners (BS 3) are 11 points now arnt they? 6x11 is 66 points (roughly 70 points)
Dwarf hangunners (+1 to hit) are 14 points each

But when the Bolt Thrower was costed, Handgunners were only 8 points. And I'm not sure how much they went up, but 11 points seems like too much.

Shadow_Steed
14-05-2012, 09:08
Heavy Armour for Spearmen, and something suitable for the overpriced Archers.

The Low King
14-05-2012, 09:39
But when the Bolt Thrower was costed, Handgunners were only 8 points. And I'm not sure how much they went up, but 11 points seems like too much.

So they are the right price in 8th edition but were a bit too expensive in 7th edition......

Hoshiyami
14-05-2012, 22:39
So they are the right price in 8th edition but were a bit too expensive in 7th edition......

I'm really sorry, but I don't understand this logic.

The Low King
15-05-2012, 00:31
I'm really sorry, but I don't understand this logic.

When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

R Man
15-05-2012, 02:25
When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

Zephel
15-05-2012, 05:40
Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

Nail on the head. It's bad business to compare one army (which you seem to be partial IE possibly bias towards) to another when it's the overall picture you should be looking at.

Hoshiyami
15-05-2012, 08:22
When the bolt throwers were costed the equivelent damage in handgunners was 70ish points. That means they costed too much.
Now, the equivelent damage in handgunners is 90ish points. That means they cost about right.

As we play now rather than then, they are priced fine.

Even following this "equivalent damage" system (I dunno how much should cost an organ gun, an hellfire or a cannon this way), handgunners went up 1 point, not 3...

Athlan na Dyr
15-05-2012, 09:52
Ummmm:
4) Sea Guard have heavy armour standard, to distinguish them from Spearmen.....
.
.
.
8) Magic items keep it to 14 items. So just one more item in each section in comparison to other armies.

Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.

as for number 8, I can already here the whine from every other army already...
If anyone was to get stuff that doesn't fit with everyone elses magic items or their allotment, then it should be dwarves or daemons (as it currently is)
Lets face it, chances are there is going to be the same number of good items anyway...

boli
15-05-2012, 10:43
Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water..

Sea Guard with Life Jackets and free Lifeguard with every 20 models :)

The Low King
15-05-2012, 13:04
Even following this "equivalent damage" system (I dunno how much should cost an organ gun, an hellfire or a cannon this way), handgunners went up 1 point, not 3...

i thought they were now 11 points?


Unless one considers Handgunners to be currently overpriced. In which case they are both overpriced.

Overpriced compared to 7th edtion armies, but compared to the rest of the empire book?

R Man
15-05-2012, 22:58
Overpriced compared to 7th edtion armies, but compared to the rest of the empire book?

At 11 points yes. At 9 points maybe not. Compared to a Bolt Thrower? Pretty much back at Square 1.

řidrek
16-05-2012, 07:07
Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.

See I don't have a problem with this per say as medieval knights learned to swim in armor. Here is an article that mentions it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guernsey/content/articles/2007/04/18/ig07_swimming_feature.shtml

The idea wouldn't be to remain buoyant indefinitely, just long enough to shrug off the armor before you drowned.

sulla
16-05-2012, 07:35
Sea Guard. Sea Guard. As in mariners, as in they are most often on boats. Now given, as we are, to think of elves as having a brain on their shoulders don't you think they might want something light so that they don't sink like a stone if or when they fall overboard? If heavy armour was to be given to one of the elf core units (which I personally would like), give it to the Spearmen because they stay on nice solid ground as opposed to water.
.Pretty sure Roman Marines used to wear a fair bit of armour. Generally, the threat of falling overboard is far less scary than a sword to the guts for these guys; they usually fight on their own ship or on the other guy's. Very little time is spent on the railings, and the little time that is passes less dangerously with decent armour protection.

Regardless of that, the reason Sea guard (and HE spearmen and DE warriors) should have Heavy armour is... because that's the armour the models are wearing... Price them fairly for it rather than saying some armies make full body armour out of tinfoil and some make guy plates out of adamantium.

(My 2 cents, anyway)

TheDungen
16-05-2012, 11:10
A breastplate isnt heavy armour. What silverhelms wear is heavy armour. Notice the difference? except the chest plate the spearmen only wear scale mail which certainly isn't heavy armour. If you look at high elves with heavy armour say the silver helms they have plate on their legs as well, under the scale mail. If you look at the PG they have plate boots sticking out under their robes, normal spearmen have simple leather boots. if you look at white lions they have plate leggings to.

As long as Brettonian knights are limited to heavy armour (rather than full plate as the imperial version) high elf spearmen doesnt use heavy armour.

Same goes for the roman mariners, lorica segmentata isnt heavy armour, its just a chestplate, no protection for the arms and no protection for the legs. In fact its even less heavy armour than the one the spearmen use.
My guess would that when swimming in armour its not the overall weight but the weight of arms and legs (that you need to move) that matters the most. it feels that way when you try to swim fully clothed, but i'm only guessing i haven't tried swimming with armour.
And also could the roman mariners swim? cause if they couldn't then it wouldn't matter if they wore armour or not, they'd drown anyway.

The Low King
16-05-2012, 11:22
See I don't have a problem with this per say as medieval knights learned to swim in armor. Here is an article that mentions it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guernsey/content/articles/2007/04/18/ig07_swimming_feature.shtml

The idea wouldn't be to remain buoyant indefinitely, just long enough to shrug off the armor before you drowned.

Swimming in armour is very different from falling overboard in full armour. When you swim you will be starting off from the same level as the water, probably wading in first before you start swimming. Fall off a ship on the other hand and you are 10M underwater before you can react, your body is freezing up in shock and you probably didnt manage to take a breath before you hit the water....there is no way you are managing to take off a suit of heavy armour.

cptcosmic
16-05-2012, 12:34
HE damage potential is overrated imho. WL dont kill that much unless in horde mode (which can be countered easily by redirecting, template weapons and magic) and SM can kill alot of models because of 2 attacks in the front rank but how does it help killing 15 low point models when the 40 man unit still grinds you down and holds for atleast 2 turn? Beside that SM almost never reach combat with initial numbers. HE can only win by superior movement, placement and in the end perfectly executed combo charges to mow down units that are weakened by magic in one turn.

HE are able do this BUT other units of other races can do this too while also having access to strong magic, template weapons and durable or cheap units. He dont have access to alot of toys, like on demand template weapons. the only way for HE to mow down horde units is unreliable magic or enemy stupidity letting you combo charge with 3 units.

I am actually fine with that but HE need more to compensate for this. the nonmage lords and heroes are expensive but do not provide anything but more killing power HE already have plenty of. a noble choice with heavy armor and great weapon costs as much as 6 more SM but does not provide anything meaningful to the unit. the cost should be reduced and they should add some useful side effects to the unit.

HE core needs an improvement too. spearelves could use parry save for their cost, they are after all a well trained phalanx of spears and shields. Archers could get light armor for free and armor armor piercing for their longbows. Silverhelms should receive WS 5, they are after all nobles bringing their own equipment into the battle. the boltthrowers should get their 3rd wound and receive a point cost reduction or more shots with the alternative fire mode.

and there are many more ways to improve HE without making them too strong.


Swimming in armour is very different from falling overboard in full armour. When you swim you will be starting off from the same level as the water, probably wading in first before you start swimming. Fall off a ship on the other hand and you are 10M underwater before you can react, your body is freezing up in shock and you probably didnt manage to take a breath before you hit the water....there is no way you are managing to take off a suit of heavy armour.
HE armors are made of lightweight alloys as stated in the BRB lore page :)

The Low King
16-05-2012, 12:47
HE armors are made of lightweight alloys :)

Yeah but High elves are absolute pansies so it cancels out :P

boli
16-05-2012, 12:49
Not to rain on everyone's parade but soliders and sailors rarely knew how to swim; so there was little or no difference between getting knocked overboard in full armour or none, most of the time you drowned.

cptcosmic
16-05-2012, 13:20
Not to rain on everyone's parade but soliders and sailors rarely knew how to swim; so there was little or no difference between getting knocked overboard in full armour or none, most of the time you drowned.
HE are not peasants but highly trained units :)

Hoshiyami
16-05-2012, 15:41
A breastplate isnt heavy armour. What silverhelms wear is heavy armour. Notice the difference?

A bretonnian man at arms wears light armor. A goblin wears light armour. Empire spearmen/halberds wear light armour. Just some leather rags can be light armour but a (ithilmar) breastplate and scale mail to the feet has to be light armour and can't be heavy armour? It's quite a wide description for light armour, IMHO.

Ah, and don't forget great swordmen wear (breast)plate armour, fashion throusers and leather shoes :P

knightwire
16-05-2012, 15:53
A breastplate isnt heavy armour. What silverhelms wear is heavy armour. Notice the difference? except the chest plate the spearmen only wear scale mail which certainly isn't heavy armour. If you look at high elves with heavy armour say the silver helms they have plate on their legs as well, under the scale mail. If you look at the PG they have plate boots sticking out under their robes, normal spearmen have simple leather boots. if you look at white lions they have plate leggings to.


Couldn't disagree more. :)

Whether armor is heavy or light is completely arbitrary. The HE spearmen have a full helm, breast plate and a mail dress that goes to the ground ffs. Not a stretch in the lease to call it heavy armor if one wants to. Yeah the Silverhelms have plate on their legs... probably because when you sit on a horse your legs stick out. Yep the old PG have plate boots... because thier armor skirting was much shorter. The new ones have the same dress that spearmen use. White Lions... same as the old PG.

These are all minor modeling/sculptor nitpicks and entirely your opinion. One I don't share.




As long as Brettonian knights are limited to heavy armour (rather than full plate as the imperial version) high elf spearmen doesnt use heavy armour.


Riiiight. Your logic is extraordinary. ;)

Kurnous the Hunter
16-05-2012, 15:54
HE are not peasants but highly trained units :)

They also live on an island that has an inland sea- they live many hundreds of years, & have reflexes & coordination far
greater than most if not all humans.

knightwire
16-05-2012, 15:56
They also live on an island that has an inland sea- they live many hundreds of years, & have reflexes & coordination far
greater than most if not all humans.

With the exception of Chuck Norris, absolutely true. :cool:

The Low King
16-05-2012, 16:08
Riiiight. Your logic is extraordinary. ;)

I believe the point he is making is that (he feels) knights should have more armour than infantry.


They also live on an island that has an inland sea- they live many hundreds of years, & have reflexes & coordination far
greater than most if not all humans.

Ive heard the beaches of warhammer world are paticularly relaxing, clear blue seas that offer a beautiful veiw of all the monsters :D

knightwire
16-05-2012, 16:32
[QUOTE=The Low King;6226883]I believe the point he is making is that (he feels) knights should have more armour than infantry.

Why? Just because? Knights and infantry both have been outfitted throughout human history in a very broad range of equipment. I think in a made up fantasy universe he can live with a drastic difference in philosophy between races. :)

The Low King
16-05-2012, 16:46
Why? Just because? Knights and infantry both have been outfitted throughout human history in a very broad range of equipment. I think in a made up fantasy universe he can live with a drastic difference in philosophy between races. :)

Because Knights (at least Heavy cavalry) are generally much more heavily armoured than Infantry simply because of the weight of the armour

boli
16-05-2012, 17:21
They also live on an island that has an inland sea- they live many hundreds of years, & have reflexes & coordination far
greater than most if not all humans.

...and the British ISLES, Japan, Greece always thought of having great navies in their time and an afinity with the waters around their archipelago home; and yet I will still include them in having most of their sailors throughout history being unable to swim.

Anyways... it is generally not the weight of armour which is a problem but fabric itself. If you have ever tried to swim in loose clothing compared to actual weight itself the difference is pronouced. If HE Seaguard planned to do any sort of combat in water they shoudl be dressed in close fitting clothing/armour rather than the dresses of scales and fabric they have now.

knightwire
16-05-2012, 18:07
Because Knights (at least Heavy cavalry) are generally much more heavily armoured than Infantry simply because of the weight of the armour

Yes generallly they are, and in Warhammer this holds true. My point is simply don't get bogged down with real world comparisons and justifications. The HE are a text book example of why you shouldn't. They are racially different then humans giving them a natural advantage to anything involving physical motor skills (even... swimming) on top of their elder status giving them more than enough experience to figure out how to equip their militia and marines. Then another major factor of difference is they use a metal that is stronger and lighter than human factions use... thus giving the result of crafting armor that is lighter in weight and restriction to accomodate their agility yet retaining or exceding others in it's strength.

They break the general rules... which gives you things in few cases like (HE) infantry with equal or better protection than (Human) knights. <shrug> There's nothing wrong with that, it's all good. ;)

řidrek
16-05-2012, 18:10
...and the British ISLES, Japan, Greece always thought of having great navies in their time and an afinity with the waters around their archipelago home; and yet I will still include them in having most of their sailors throughout history being unable to swim.

Anyways... it is generally not the weight of armour which is a problem but fabric itself. If you have ever tried to swim in loose clothing compared to actual weight itself the difference is pronouced. If HE Seaguard planned to do any sort of combat in water they shoudl be dressed in close fitting clothing/armour rather than the dresses of scales and fabric they have now.

Well there is a Japanese Martial Practice called Suieijutsu in which warriors learned how to swim in armor (here is a link describing it: http://kempo.4mg.com/articles/suiei.htm).

By the way ever wonder where the term Shanghai'd came from? http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Shanghai&searchmode=none When you might not be from the coast and find yourself pressed into service on board a ship its a little late to learn how to swim.

Okay and as I loath using them as a reference you might be interested in looking at the wikipedia entry on the history of swimming as it shows that swimming has been practiced for a very long time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_swimming (EDIT: Found a more credible link here talking about the history of swimming and even competitive swimming: http://faculty.deanza.fhda.edu/donahuemary/stories/storyReader%24700)

But I do digress with the argument that if thrown overboard it would be a lot harder, lacking that final breath, and working against already being submerged would make it extremely hard to not drown. But in the past what would have been your chances in the open sea of survival any way, you can easily go unnoticed as you try and float, sharks might attack you (in warhammer there are all kinds of sea monsters), your ship might sink or be captured thus there might be no rescue for you. If the waves are really turbulent do to an approaching storm you will probably drown and the currents will probably make you drift off to where there is no rescue. It's almost unheard of in maritime history of people being found after their ship goes down (after all they didn't have planes, helicopters, and radios for them to even have an idea where it happened and look for survivors).

TheDungen
17-05-2012, 00:38
My point is that heavy armour isnt an elvish thing thats a dwarf thing, elves survive by speed and skill.

Oh and also no halebards for seaguard, i dont see why they would be any more usefull on a boat than a spear and i dont want to have to buy new seagurd units =P

řidrek
17-05-2012, 00:59
My point is that heavy armour isnt an elvish thing thats a dwarf thing, elves survive by speed and skill.

And this is where some of us disagree with one another. When I think of the High Elves I for some reason think of the Noldor from Tolkien, Highly Skilled warriors in Strong armor. They did not dance around the battle field but fought in ranks and stood their ground against their foes. But as this isn't Tolkien its a difference in how we view them thus we are both relegated to our own opinions on the matter (as such I don't expect you to come around to my thinking but I'm trying to make you understand where my thinking comes from).


Oh and also no halebards for seaguard, i dont see why they would be any more usefull on a boat than a spear and i dont want to have to buy new seagurd units =P

This point I will find common ground with you.

The Low King
17-05-2012, 01:29
And this is where some of us disagree with one another. When I think of the High Elves I for some reason think of the Noldor from Tolkien, Highly Skilled warriors in Strong armor. They did not dance around the battle field but fought in ranks and stood their ground against their foes. But as this isn't Tolkien its a difference in how we view them thus we are both relegated to our own opinions on the matter (as such I don't expect you to come around to my thinking but I'm trying to make you understand where my thinking comes from)..

Dwarves in LOTR had better armour than the elves.....




But I do digress with the argument that if thrown overboard it would be a lot harder, lacking that final breath, and working against already being submerged would make it extremely hard to not drown. But in the past what would have been your chances in the open sea of survival any way, you can easily go unnoticed as you try and float, sharks might attack you (in warhammer there are all kinds of sea monsters), your ship might sink or be captured thus there might be no rescue for you. If the waves are really turbulent do to an approaching storm you will probably drown and the currents will probably make you drift off to where there is no rescue. It's almost unheard of in maritime history of people being found after their ship goes down (after all they didn't have planes, helicopters, and radios for them to even have an idea where it happened and look for survivors).

Its a matter of Courage. To wear heavy armour (ie, anything more that Leather) on a ship is to risk death from drowning. Its to basically say 'we lose the ship and i die'.

řidrek
17-05-2012, 01:45
Dwarves in LOTR had better armour than the elves.....

Well this is a bit of a Tolkien Debate though as when we talk about Feanor's People they got their arms from the Valar but its not clear if that includes armor. The Valar are discribed at times as having armor like the skin of a fish (so maybe scale armor). But when it came to making their own, it was the dwarves that taught them the craft of making chainmail originally and they were allied with them until the Fall of Gondolin in which the a Dwarf showed Gothmog's Army the way. Also in Tolkien, in the Battle of the Last Alliance Dwarves where on both sides.

In the story of Tuor (I believe it was him) he discovers a Noldor suit of Scale armor and a powerful axe named Dramborleg.

Edit: Also I'm not saying that HE should have better armor then Dwarfs but also keep in mind they don't have a new book yet either so comparing it to the old one is folly (they should be given back gromril just as elves Ilithmar). And yes in Tolkien the Dwarves were better smiths but its not clear how great of a divide they had in skill as Elven Smiths were not jokes either.


Its a matter of Courage. To wear heavy armour (ie, anything more that Leather) on a ship is to risk death from drowning. Its to basically say 'we lose the ship and i die'.

Well I think I would be happy to be one of courage/cowardice to wear that heavy armor and sink to the bottom as I would rather drown then be taken by choas worshipers or Druchii. It would be a mercy to be imbraced by the Sea God in comparison.

Hoshiyami
17-05-2012, 02:06
Edit: Also I'm not saying that HE should have better armor then Dwarfs but also keep in mind they don't have a new book yet either so comparing it to the old one is folly (they should be given back gromril just as elves Ilithmar). And yes in Tolkien the Dwarves were better smiths but its not clear how great of a divide they had in skill as Elven Smiths were not jokes either.

Anyway, in this game dwarven smiths or elven smiths can't make a non-magical-classic-one-hand-weapon wich is more "effective" than a 'zombie arm' or a 'stick' in peasant's hands. It's something always bugged me, really :P

TheDungen
17-05-2012, 17:56
If you want Tolkien you know there 's a game for that right? This is warhammer and here elves and pansies dancing around the battlefield. (anyone else think of 300)

Think the war of the beard story where the dwarf (Gotrek Starbreaker right?) survived because he has armour and caledor survives because the dwarf cant hit him. (until he does and big loss they lost the worst phoenix king ever)

řidrek
17-05-2012, 22:37
Think the war of the beard story where the dwarf (Gotrek Starbreaker right?) survived because he has armour and caledor survives because the dwarf cant hit him. (until he does and big loss they lost the worst phoenix king ever)

Actually it is a big deal for the fact the Phoenix Crown was lost and taken as compensation by the Dwarfs (they still have it :p), other then that, its to bad the Dwarfs didn't kill him sooner.

TheDungen
18-05-2012, 23:32
Worth it to get rid of the only king stupid enough to go to war in a crown.

řidrek
19-05-2012, 01:01
Worth it to get rid of the only king stupid enough to go to war in a crown.

Umm... there are several characters that wear their crowns in warhammer to do battle. Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Alith Anar and Malekith all go to war with crowns (although, Malekith's is part of his helmet).

Thorgrim Grudgebearer: The Dragon Crown of Karaz: The Crown Bears the Master Rune of Kingship.

Alith Anar: Shadow Crown: If Alith Anar (and any unit he is with) Breaks from close combat, any opponent pursuing him must halve the distance they roll (rounding up) for pursuing.

Malekith: Circlet of Iron: Malekith gains one extra power dice in the Dark Elves' Magic Phase (which only he may use) and he also generates one extra dispel dice for his army in the Opponent's Magic Phase.

Those are just the ones I could think of off my head to reference.

Hoshiyami
19-05-2012, 01:44
Umm... there are several characters that wear their crowns in warhammer to do battle. Thorgrim Grudgebearer, Alith Anar and Malekith all go to war with crowns (although, Malekith's is part of his helmet).

Thorgrim Grudgebearer: The Dragon Crown of Karaz: The Crown Bears the Master Rune of Kingship.

Alith Anar: Shadow Crown: If Alith Anar (and any unit he is with) Breaks from close combat, any opponent pursuing him must halve the distance they roll (rounding up) for pursuing.

Malekith: Circlet of Iron: Malekith gains one extra power dice in the Dark Elves' Magic Phase (which only he may use) and he also generates one extra dispel dice for his army in the Opponent's Magic Phase.

Those are just the ones I could think of off my head to reference.


Archaon wears one too.

And the "War Crown of Saphery" doesn't ring a bell? ;)

řidrek
19-05-2012, 01:56
Archaon wears one too.

And the "War Crown of Saphery" doesn't ring a bell? ;)

Who is Teclis, couldn't be the dude I use as my avatar could it :shifty:

Okay yeah he was an obvious one that I obviously didn't think of when I was making my reply.

TheDungen
19-05-2012, 09:33
yeah but those are crowns made for war, a high elf army book state that caledor II was the only king ever proud enough to wear the phoenix crown to war.

řidrek
19-05-2012, 16:48
yeah but those are crowns made for war, a high elf army book state that caledor II was the only king ever proud enough to wear the phoenix crown to war.

When stated as you have above, yes you are correct; however, your previous statement (as quoted beneath) did not give such a clearly defined as being in reference to the Phoenix Crown.


Worth it to get rid of the only king stupid enough to go to war in a crown.

As it might seem I'm trying to pick a fight with you when I'm not I'll just leave it at that.

TheDungen
19-05-2012, 21:45
Yeah we kinda got offtopic

řidrek
20-05-2012, 09:17
Okay how about this?

- Ellyrion Reavers moved to Core and given Ilithmar Barding

- Silver Helms get a slight stat boost to justify them being a Special Choice

- Dragon Princes to Rare (as you can't cook them in their dragon armor ;))

- Remove SoA and replace is with the following:




I'd be tempted to simply give all three elves some sort of 'finesse' rule, which would allow them to substitute their Weaponskill for Strength (if it would be higher) when determining armour saves. So generally speaking elves aren't great at wounding, but those wounds they manage to score have a better chance of getting through armour.




- Swordmasters have ASF

- White Lions Strike at initiative

- Reduce point cost of Repeater Bolt Throwers

- Shadow Warriors (Composite Long Bows), Ellyrion Reavers (Composite Bow), And Lothern Sea Guard (Composite Bows): the way they work is, when fired at short range they are strength 4, if shot at long range they are the normal strength 3, all penalties still apply)

- Martial Prowess not only allows you to fight in one extra rank but conveys a 6+ ward save that is only used while in close combat to convey their skill at closing ranks and blocking with their shields ("Each member of the unit instinctively knows the mind of his comrades to either side and the whole regiment intuitively fights as one body. Each warrior plays his part as if their every movement was part of a carefully choreographed plan, overlapping one another and providing protection, or opening the defenses of the enemy without so much as a spoken word or a nod." Spearman fluff first paragraph 3rd sentance page 49)