PDA

View Full Version : Why All The Hate For The Lion? PLEASE USE SPOILERS! :)



Sqallum
28-04-2012, 11:22
Hi! I, while trawling through threads of the Horus Heresy and the DA and the Lion, frequently here is a egotistical, paranoid, two-faced idiot and he is appalling at reading character! I have read Descent Of Angels, and though he WAS a bit of a tool for sending back Luther to control CALIBAN, is there anymore instances of his idiocy? I know he gets duped by Perturabo....but still... :confused: BTW, I have not finished Fallen Angels, I know about Perturabo through an Amazon extrace :D Please, use spoilers ;)
Sqallum

Iron_Lord
28-04-2012, 11:32
Hi! I, while trawling through threads of the Horus Heresy and the DA and the Lion, frequently here is a egotistical, paranoid, two-faced idiot and he is appalling at reading character! I have read Descent Of Angels, and though he WAS a bit of a tool for sending back Luther to control CALIBAN, is there anymore instances of his idiocy? I know he gets duped by Perturabo....but still... :confused: BTW, I have not finished Fallen Angels, I know about Perturabo through an Amazon extrace :D Please, use spoilers ;)
Sqallum

In the short story The Lion, in The Primarchs he:

regards the idea of an Imperium without the Emperor as Wrong- he would rather everything collapse than that someone like Guilliman take over after the Emperor and Horus kill each other.

He's also under the mistaken impression that the Iron Hands are one of the Traitor Legions.

ryng_sting
28-04-2012, 11:50
I like the current portrayal of the Lion - a Loyalist, but with major, jagged flaws, few of which he actually seems to be aware of.

Sqallum
28-04-2012, 16:15
How dcanhe think the Iron Hands are traitors? Does he show sadness over the death of the utter BEAST Ferrus Manus :D
Sqallum

Brothergrimm
28-04-2012, 20:00
In the first two books the Lion comes of as a robot and a bit of a tool. It felt to me like nobody understood how to write El,jonson.

A-DB saved the Lion Imho and the new gav thorpe story looks pretty god.

CutThroatRazor
28-04-2012, 22:27
It felt to me like nobody understood how to write El,jonson.

This.

Dark Angels were my first army. I would like for them to be my favorite but sadly, they are not. I like the idea of El'jonson being raised in the wild and then becoming a "warrior knight". I love the ideas of knights and the artwork for the Lion is amazing.

But...my problems are first and foremost his name. It is horrible. I know that some will argue and others will name primarchs with worse names but I despise his name. Second, he is boring. Nothing stands out. No wings, mongul theme, invisibility, nothing that really sets him apart or makes him stand out. The same can be said about Guilliman and Dorn but they have way better backgrounds.

I think that someone needs to sit down and really focus on what the Lion stands for, what he is trying or going to accomplish and give us some insight on who he is.

These are just my opinions and not very good ones at that. Have not read Decent of Angels or Fallen Angels because of all the hate.

...this post could have just said He is Boring!

Lord-Caerolion
29-04-2012, 06:12
... You haven't read Savage Weapons, have you, CutThroatRazor? That's definitely my favourite portrayal of the Lion yet.

CutThroatRazor
29-04-2012, 07:09
... You haven't read Savage Weapons, have you, CutThroatRazor? That's definitely my favourite portrayal of the Lion yet.

no. i feel bad for not being up to date. i have the da codex (angels of death, 3rd ed and 4th ed) and i have read alot of short stories and white dwarfs that had the DA in them. i just havent read anything that peaked my interest in the Lion. i will take a look at ur suggestion and maybe i will change my mind. like i said before, they were my first army...i would love to love them again lol.

ryng_sting
29-04-2012, 11:46
He's named after the poet Lionel Johnson, author of...'The Dark Angel'.

CutThroatRazor
29-04-2012, 16:14
He's named after the poet Lionel Johnson, author of...'The Dark Angel'.

I know and Lionel Jonson, Lion Jonson or Jonson "The Lion" would be fine. I personally just dont like El'Jonson. I dont know why. I just dont. Its a personal thing. Not that I have a personal vendetta against "El" anything. I mean El Paso, Tx. doesnt bother me. HAHA, I just dont like his name. I just call him "The Lion".

narrativium
29-04-2012, 16:57
The books tend to call him 'The Lion' too. The 'El' thing is explained as 'son of', which I think is fair play. My name begins "O'", presumed to be short for "of" as an Irish surname, so it's not ridiculous to me at all - but, apostrophes tend to be abused horribly in fantasy fiction for names, so I can see why it might annoy.

I don't think the Lion is an idiot for thinking the Iron Hands were potentially traitors, any more than I think Guilliman was an idiot for devising strategies in case his Ultramarines had to fight warriors of the Salamanders. The simple truth is: you know more than the Primarchs do. You know who is friend and who is foe. But the Primarchs never anticipated the Horus Heresy, so now you see the Lion's paranoia, and Guilliman's anticipation, to confront the traitors of Isstvan V, whichever Legion they turn out to be.

The Lion is lord of a Legion of knightly Space Marines, and there are many virtues about that ideal, but in contrast he's also lord of an order who keep immense secrets. Information is power, and the Dark Angels guard their information very closely. The best I can determine at the moment is that the Lion is walking a very fine line between loyalty and defiance to the Emperor. Caliban is a dark world of secrets and the Lion means to protect it, even if it means learning about the warp and its dangers, and he must do secretly or end up like Magnus.

(By the way, Sqallum, if you're going to start a thread asking people to use spoiler tags, respond to those spoilers in spoiler tags yourself!)

Sqallum
29-04-2012, 19:51
Ah, but I am stupid - I have not yet read Fallen Angels (but its fine, spoil it for me - no joke), and I....do not know how to use spoilers :o
Sqallum

narrativium
29-04-2012, 20:26
If you hit the 'Go Advanced' button under the 'Quick Reply' text box at the bottom of the screen, there's a spoiler button which adds a tag before and after the bit you want hidden. Once you've seen it you'll know how it's typed for when you want to Quick Reply. It's pretty simple.

Brothergrimm
29-04-2012, 22:47
As far as the name goes I'd like to see Lion El;jonson be the high gothic translation of the calabanite Lynn Elgoson a or whatever his name was before it changed after the RT era.

narrativium
29-04-2012, 22:59
I suspect we won't.

I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy. Lion El'Jonson is not the worst name of the batch. Sanguinius, Angron, Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, to some extent Mortarion and Corax, are much goofier. Live with it.

CutThroatRazor
30-04-2012, 01:19
I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy.

:D :Thumbs up: lol

Londinium
30-04-2012, 01:51
I suspect we won't.

I think it'd be hilarious to see the scene when a Dark Angel and an Iron Hand first met.
'So, what's your primarch's name?'
'Lion El'Jonson.'
'Kinda goofy, isn't it?'
'It means 'The Lion, the son of the forest' on Caliban. Why, what's your primarch called?'
'Ferrus Manus. It means.... Yeah, ok, forget I said anything.'

A lot of the primarchs' names are goofy. Lion El'Jonson is not the worst name of the batch. Sanguinius, Angron, Alpharius, Ferrus Manus, to some extent Mortarion and Corax, are much goofier. Live with it.

I really hope that Angrons 'name' gets retconned to being the name he was given by the slavers that used him in their gladiator battles and that he can't remember (or never had) his proper name. It'd fit really nicely and get rid of one of the stupidest of a whole bunch of stupid names made up back when GW wasn't as serious as they are now. Unfortunately others such as Ferrus Manus are harder to fix. For what it's worth I actually think Sanguinius, Alpharius and Mortation work just fine and Lion El Johnson is practically brilliant compared to the absurdity of 'Angron'.

Hendarion
30-04-2012, 05:25
The names aren't worse or better than "The Amazing Spider-Man", "Batman" or "Mr. Fantastic". They are invented to fit the legions.
Alpha(rius) (if you would name Guilliman accordingly, he'd be either Omecron or Ultraman - Ultramar... *cough*)
Ferrus Manus (Ferrum=Iron in Latin, Manus=Hands [so says google translate, don't beat me on it])
Sanguinius (Saint)
Angron (angry)
Russ (dunno whats the real intention here, but it makes me think of cold and "cruel" Russia)
...
So dunno, I wouldn't make a fuzz for these names, I see them basically as left-overs from a more comic-like period of 40k which was full of jokes and irony.

madd0ct0r
30-04-2012, 05:45
Sanguinius come from Sanguine meaning 'cool headed/ unemotional' and also 'bloody'. Angron is a bit silly.

i like the Lion's name, just wish his character was a little more fleshed out.

Hendarion
30-04-2012, 05:56
Sanguine comes from cool headed? Bloody from French, yes. And sanguineum from latin for blood. And imo it is related to "saint" aswell. Dunno where the cool headed comes from, especially when thinking of the Death Company, it doesn't really fit.

librerian_samae
30-04-2012, 07:41
it comes from the four 'humours' of the body-
-sanguine, cool headed, detached
-black bile, melancholic
-yellow bile, anger
-phlegm, stubborn, bull headed (phlegmatic)

a branch of medieval pseudo medicine.

It fits sanguinous quite well, his outward calm coupled with the distance he and his legion keep due to the black thirst.

Hendarion
30-04-2012, 08:10
Ah, ok, thanks.

narrativium
30-04-2012, 11:11
I really hope that Angrons 'name' gets retconned to being the name he was given by the slavers that used him in their gladiator battles and that he can't remember (or never had) his proper name.
What proper name? The primarchs were named where they were found; the Emperor didn't name them. The Legions were named, and some renamed when their primarchs were discovered, but then they needed names in the Emperor's service before integrating with their primarchs' cultures. Angron's 'proper name' by your definition is Number Twelve.

I don't actually think 'Angron' is that bit. The syllables fit. If he was called 'Rageman' or something then yeah, maybe, but Angron sounds like a name first.

Lord-Caerolion
30-04-2012, 15:02
What proper name? The primarchs were named where they were found; the Emperor didn't name them. The Legions were named, and some renamed when their primarchs were discovered, but then they needed names in the Emperor's service before integrating with their primarchs' cultures. Angron's 'proper name' by your definition is Number Twelve.

I don't actually think 'Angron' is that bit. The syllables fit. If he was called 'Rageman' or something then yeah, maybe, but Angron sounds like a name first.

Actually, he did name them. However, the only name we've ever known about that he created was Konrad Curze. All other Primarchs kept the names they got on their homeworlds.

Carlosophy
30-04-2012, 15:04
My name is Angron, because i'm very ANGRY!!!

MvS
30-04-2012, 21:48
Human Torch: FLAME ON!

Big Dude With Cables In His Head: ANGER ON!!

boli
01-05-2012, 09:21
Lion El'Jonson always reminds me of the game; Moonstone: http://www.abandonia.com/files/games/153/Moonstone%20-%20A%20Hard%20Days%20Knight_7.png

Which is bascially a game of questing knights. I always thought Lion El'Jonson's biggest flaw was he was actually put in charge... afterall until the Fallen Angels him and his entire chapter have no real focus. I mean yes he has a great tactical knowledge on the small scale but there was no real plan; no goal, no strategic focus. In much the same way the questing knight's of legend spend all their time argueing and trying to sleep with the queen it took the quest of the grail and arther to bind them together.

... until the betrayal The Lion just looked like a whiny child :P

Denny
01-05-2012, 09:59
it comes from the four 'humours' of the body-
-sanguine, cool headed, detached


Actually I think Sanguine means Optimistic/Full of Hope/cheerful/Confident . . . though it can also mean bloodthirsty/aggressive.
There's a nice contradiction to it, just as there is to the Blood Angels character.

Phlegmatics tend to be unemotional/detached

SunTzu
01-05-2012, 16:55
The problem I have with Lion El'Jonson's name is that the first bit, "Lion", means "Lion"... and the second bit, "El'Jonson", means "of the forest". Really? So the bit that's arguably a fairly cool name or nickname gets left as-is. But the bit that gets crowbarred to fit the name of the guy who wrote the poem (which rocks, btw) has to be unconvincingly translated to not actually mean what it obviously means, honest? Pfffft, give it a rest. IIRC the first time the Lion was named (in the Rogue Trader era) his name was given as Lyyn El'gonsson. Which, OK, isn't massively readable, but at least they made an effort. "Lion of the forest"? Yeah, right. <Slap>

Anyway... I used to really like the Lion. Fairly cool (if a bit OTT) background of his time on Caliban, and although he didn't feature first-hand in Angels of Darkness, I loved that book and retain my love of the Dark Angels legion ever since. Then along came Descent of Angels, and it was just... awful. A really poor book, and the Lion was portrayed as being frankly a bit retarded. "I suspect Luthor of plotting against me and trying to kill me. I will therefore leave him in charge of a third of my Legion, my homeworld, and all the new recruits!" I mean... what? That just doesn't make any sense. There appears to be no reasonable explanation of how anybody could possibly ever think that a good idea.

From that point on, I've found it hard to like anything about him. Even when better authors (Mike Lee, ADB) have tried to handle him, they've not yet found a way that presents him as convincing to me. Unfortunately the more different authors try to find new ways to portray him, the more muddied and confused his personality becomes... certainly from author to author, but even within the same story (see especially The Lion in the Primarchs anthology). I dunno, ADB is basically my god-damn hero so maybe if I'd read Savage Weapons without reading anything else, that might have brought the Lion to life for me (it is otherwise an astonishingly compelling story) but even where there's not open or implicit contradiction with the other stories, there remains confusion and schizophrenia and above all else the strong suspicion that the Lion is, if nothing else, a bit of a pillock. And that very much limits the amount of awesomeness I find myself able to ascribe to him.

Do what thou wilt, thou shalt not so, Dark Angel! Triumph over me... Lonely, unto the lone I go; Divine, to the divinity.

ryng_sting
01-05-2012, 18:03
What proper name? The primarchs were named where they were found; the Emperor didn't name them. .

Although he alone knew Konrad Curze's proper name. The people of Nostromo only 'knew' him as Night Haunter.

Denny
02-05-2012, 10:22
"Lion", means "Lion"... and the second bit, "El'Jonson", means "of the forest

'So then, “mono” means “one”. And ”rail” means “rail” . . . and that concludes our intensive three-week course.'

Bonzai
02-05-2012, 18:27
I actually found the first two Dark Angel's books portrayal of Johnson to be interesting. It showed that he was a brilliant, big picture strategist, able to go toe to toe with Horus on a tactical level. It also showed other similarities to Horus. Prideful, ambitious, calculating, a glory hound, and being prone to favoritism... Almost too many similarities to be a coincidence. I thought that it added a whole layer to Johnson's character, and struck home that this was a Primarch who could have been tipped to the other side under the right circumstances. It actually made him a little more interesting in that regard.

Casper Hawser
02-05-2012, 21:11
[QUOTEIt fits sanguinous quite well, his outward calm coupled with the distance he and his legion keep due to the black thirst.[/QUOTE]

Sorry to be be picky Red thirst then black rage

On the primarchs names I like them all would you have prefered Bob of the tenth legion, Richard of the forth legion then I'd agree that they sound stupid.

TheDungen
05-05-2012, 20:52
Actually Ferrus Manus isnt that bad in context, its not his name its a title (or rather honary name), he had his hand turned to iron after killign some snake or dragon thiny by dippign it in stream of molten iron and was called Ferrus Manus after that. I supose he named his legion after himself becuas ethye removed their hands and replaced them with iron hands.

Also ferrus manus is Iron hand not iron hands the suffix -us is singular. I dont have my latin books but iron hands would be Ferra Mana i think (the -us suffix is neuter and should become a -a suffix in plural).


Consider that many may have been named on the planets they ended up on and that the locals named them for the same reasons we think they're corny. Sure the lion is hard to fit that why the of the forest part was added but otherwise.

Fulgrim is just aname as far as i can see.
Perturabo means enduring if i'm not mistaken, isnt not any more strange than people naming their kids august (elevated/ascended)
Jagathai Khan is just a name i guess.
Leman russ is just a name.
Rogal Dorn is just a name
Konrad Curze is the wierdest of the lot, cause its acutally his name, i wonder why the emperor would name him Curse before he knew anything about him.
Sanguinius was raised ina tribe called somethign with blood, I'm guessing if their langague is similiar to latin (but not the same) that it simply means the angel of the pure blood, then he called his legion blood angels like Ferrus manus above after his own name.
I've already discussed ferrus manus lets move on.
Angron is as someone said propably a gladiatior name. About not remembering his own name, what name? the one the emperor gave him as an infant, ofcourse he cant remember it.
Roboute Guilliman is just a name
Mortarion means child of death and makes sense because of who named him. He named his legion after himself, he was death and his legion was his guard.
Magnus is just a name.
Horus is just a name (though a fitting one considering his fate)
Lorgar is just a name
Vulkan is the god of smiths in greek mythology and as a blacksmiths son it seems a fait bit of Hubris but acceptable.
Corvus Corax doesnt make sense, his anme is suposed to mean deliverer in his peoples tounge then where did he get the diea to name his legion the raven guard. Just because he relaised his name was close to somethign in latin? seems inadequate reason for the naming of a legion.
As for Alpharius and Omegaron they were obvsiously named for alpha and omega, the begining and the end. Seems a strange thing to nme them after but then we know nothign of where they grew up. (Considering the nature of the alpha legion its possible they are not names but designations, like call signs) Since Alpharius was the only one anyone knew about he named the legion after himself.

In retrospect i'd just have named the lion Lionel Johnssen instead. its not like the poet has a copyright on his name. and then they could've said it was simply a name, if they original settlers of Caliban were northern european in descent Johnssen wouldnt have been a problem (In fact a version of Johnssen, Johansson, is the most common surename in sweden).

When considering the primarch's name remember there are people in our world naming their kids Aragorn and Gandalf.

TheDungen
06-05-2012, 02:28
Sorry i was asuming Ferrus manus was neuter since elements are genereally neuter but its obviosly inflected by the word Manus which is masculin. Its Ferri Mani in plural.

ryng_sting
06-05-2012, 14:25
The name 'Konrad Curze' and a few other background details come from the work of Joseph Conrad and the film Apocalypse Now, which is based on Conrad's Heart of Darkness. Kurtz is one of the characters. (Conrad also wrote a novel named Nostromo, too - the name of Kurze's adopted homeworld.) M'shen, Kurze's killer, is named after the actor Martin Sheen, who kills Kurtz in Apocalypse Now.

MvS
06-05-2012, 14:59
Lorgar is just a name

Although 'Aurelian' is the diminutive of 'Golden One'. So 'Little Golden One'.

TheDungen
07-05-2012, 07:03
Still just a name with a meaning, i you take into acount that the legions are named by the primarchs after they're discovered most of the names makes alot more sense.

tan
07-05-2012, 08:53
Horus is an Egyptian god
Corvus corax is the scientific name for a raven
Jagathai is a name look like a Mongolians name (white scar's are the futurist Huns warriors)
Perturabo look like the verb "perturber" in French lot of meaning (little bit "disturb" in English may be the closest)

Iron_Lord
07-05-2012, 09:49
Perturabo look like the verb "perturber" in French lot of meaning (little bit "disturb" in English may be the closest)

English already has the word "perturbed"

And I recall a fictional character whose catchphrase is "Most perturbatory"

Aemos from the Eisenhorn trilogy, in fact.

stormblade
07-05-2012, 10:19
Jagathai Khan is just a name i guess.

Khan is a title, I think it means leader or cheften.



Leman russ is just a name.

I'm just guessing here, but Russ had always reminded me of Russia. Some claim, however, that the term originally ment norse as the old slavic world rusъ means light-brown (close to blond) and there are histiorians who think that some of the first greater settlements in what would become russia where made by varyags.



Horus is just a name (though a fitting one considering his fate)


Horus fights Set to avange his father, the name is fitting only as irony I think.

Sqallum
07-05-2012, 11:29
Um... this is a bit off topic, but carry on anyway, and shh!!! :D

Lord-Caerolion
07-05-2012, 13:33
To my knowledge, Fulgrim is fairly close to fulcrum, the point on which a lever turns. Relatively fitting to name the Primarch who arguable fell the furthest after a turning point.

TheDungen
07-05-2012, 16:32
Isnt there some word that basically means enduring which is kind alike that i asumed that was what they were going for, iron enduring more then flesh after all.

Corvus Corax is the scientific name for raven yes but in the fluff its said that in the laguage spoken on deliverance its means saviour or deliverer. Thats the weakest name i think, how big are the odds that a panets word for saviour just happens to be the latin word for raven? highly unlikely unless their mytology centers aroung a ravne god (isnt that one of tzeentch's titles) which will deliver them.

I know horus is an egyptian god, the god of vengance to be exact, the son of Osiris sent by Isis to destoy seth. It sjsut that has nothign to do with what horus does in 40k so in this setting its just a name. Maybee it means that the inhabitants of his homeplanet were egyptian in descent but that all.

I am aware that Khan is warlord in Mongolia, but apart from telling us the people of his planet where of mongolian descent its still just a name and a title.

I've heard that Russia came from Russland which is a derivation of Roslagen which is place in sweden where the crusaders who became the first tsars came from. It meant home where they came from so they called their new home roslagen too and in slavic mouths in time became Rossiya (sweden in finnish is called Ruotsi). I'd say that of Ros means blonde it comes from that too since the invaders from roslagen where very likely blonde. But that might be a bit far of topic.

As for Fulgrim i think you read far to much into it i'm pretty sure its a real life name existing long before wh 40k.

TheDungen
07-05-2012, 16:45
I figured out Horus! In the original fluff Horus was the first primarch recovered by the emperor, on the moon (thats why his legion was the luna wolves). That means he was propably pretty young. So the emperor might have named him himself. He named him Horus since he would be what horus was for osiris bringing his vengance upon the gods of chaos (the imperial truth wasnt around back when horus was found on luna).

When they changed his backstory int eh HH books they couldnt exactly change his name so that stayed as a relic of the old fluff (same with Luna Wolves).

I could be wrong but it makes sense.

Edit: Just checked out Index Astertes Sons of Horus (WD 268) and it says that its thought that Horus was the first primarch to be found (we know this to be wrong now after the HH books but anyway) and that he was the only son of the empreror for many years before finding the next one. (Thats not said thats its thought thats a word of god statement meaning we've got ourselves a retcon). Nothign on the empreror naming horus though but its possible. (in the old fluff however)

SomeRandomEvilGuy
07-05-2012, 22:25
Edit: Just checked out Index Astertes Sons of Horus (WD 268) and it says that its thought that Horus was the first primarch to be found (we know this to be wrong now after the HH books but anyway)
So who was the first Primarch found and where were they found?

Private_SeeD
08-05-2012, 03:05
My view on the Lion is the same after reading the 2 Dark Angel HH, which I admit found rather hard reading since I really liked the DA chapter and found that the books didn't live up to my expectations. With regards to which side the Lion was on, I think he was trying to play on both sides so who wver won gave him the most leverage. However I've only jst got my copy of 'The Primarchs' so haven't read the novella yet. So my view might change after reading it

shadowhawk2008
08-05-2012, 04:56
Edit: Just checked out Index Astertes Sons of Horus (WD 268) and it says that its thought that Horus was the first primarch to be found (we know this to be wrong now after the HH books but anyway)

Pray tell, how do the HH books tell us that Horus was NOT the first primarch to be found by the Emperor?

Lord-Caerolion
08-05-2012, 09:07
Horus was the first primarch to be found (we know this to be wrong now after the HH books but anyway) and that he was the only son of the empreror for many years before finding the next one. (Thats not said thats its thought thats a word of god statement meaning we've got ourselves a retcon). Nothign on the empreror naming horus though but its possible. (in the old fluff however)

And what HH book would that be? Not a single one of them mentions a Primarch being found before Horus, and I've read all of them other than the Outcast Dead.

Giladisb
08-05-2012, 11:05
I think Angron was inspired by an Illyrian king called Agron who was quite warlike and bloodthirsty and his troops were quite good at capturing greek cities along the coast so that might be the inspiration for "eaters of cities".

TheDungen
08-05-2012, 12:30
I just asumed since the dark angels are listed as Legion I on all the lists and The Lunar Wolves are listed as legion XVI.

Why would they be Listed in any other order than in the order of found primarchs? But from your reaction it seems i assumed wrong. Well then te point stands. The empreor wanted Horus to be what god Horus was for Osiris for him. So he named him after the god. (Or somethign like that) or does the HH books contradict this? Anyway i can bet you anything thats what the story was suposed to be when they named him.

Lupe
08-05-2012, 12:44
Well, the Legion numerals have been in the same order since before the Heresy books, and in the same sources that said Horus was the first to be found.

The Horus Heresy series in fact further references this in many books. Most notable is one of the First Legion books, where the Lion says the follwoing



Horus became our father’s favourite son for no other reason than fate. Had I been the first one he’d found, I would be Warmaster today. No offence.

Saul
08-05-2012, 13:31
I'm just guessing here, but Russ had always reminded me of Russia. Some claim, however, that the term originally ment norse as the old slavic world rusъ means light-brown (close to blond) and there are histiorians who think that some of the first greater settlements in what would become russia where made by varyags.

Rus - "the men who row"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus_%28name%29

Lord-Caerolion
08-05-2012, 14:15
I just asumed since the dark angels are listed as Legion I on all the lists and The Lunar Wolves are listed as legion XVI.

Why would they be Listed in any other order than in the order of found primarchs? But from your reaction it seems i assumed wrong. Well then te point stands. The empreor wanted Horus to be what god Horus was for Osiris for him. So he named him after the god. (Or somethign like that) or does the HH books contradict this? Anyway i can bet you anything thats what the story was suposed to be when they named him.

The Legions were numbered in the order they were created, as were the Primarchs. The Lion was the first Primarch, and his Legion was thus the first to be developed, and as such they were the First Legion.

sweave
08-05-2012, 15:25
i don't think that's what happened
the legions were created in a numbered order but i believe the primarchs were all created at the same time
so primarch capsule number is not connected to legion number

Lupe
08-05-2012, 15:33
Actually, the numbers on the primarch capsules *seem* correct (as of The First Heretic and Horus Rising), so that might be the order the primarchs were created in.
The legions, on the other hand, might not have been created in the same order as the primarchs, but they retain the numbering of the gene-seed strand used in their creation...

Lord-Caerolion
08-05-2012, 15:45
Well, once again, we know the Dark Angels, who had Primarch I, were the First Legion, and that the Alpha Legion were only created 20 years before their Primarch was discovered. However, I don't mean that they were created in the order "Primarch/Legion/Primarch/Legion/Primarch" etc, but rather that the Lion was the first Primarch created, with the others soon following, but they were created in a definite order, which was recorded on their pods. After the Primarchs were scattered, they began creating the Legions properly, and used the genetic data of the Primarchs in numerical order.

narrativium
08-05-2012, 19:04
Well, once again, we know ... that the Alpha Legion were only created 20 years before their Primarch was discovered.
Where do we know this from?

Lord-Caerolion
09-05-2012, 09:54
From their IA article. It states that they were created an incredibly short time before their Primarch was found, and I can't remember if it was in there or in Legion that gives the 20 year time period.

MvS
09-05-2012, 21:47
Khan is a title, I think it means leader or cheften.

Jagathai Khan was a nod towards the Great Khans of the Mongolian Empire, most specifically in this case Chagatai Khan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khan). Although I think the actual character of Jaghatai is more like a cocktail of both Genghis and Kublai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire) in spaaaace!!!

TheDungen
09-05-2012, 22:06
Seems strange they would've all been scattered at the same time.

DietDolphin
10-05-2012, 01:23
Well, once again, we know the Dark Angels, who had Primarch I, were the First Legion, and that the Alpha Legion were only created 20 years before their Primarch was discovered. However, I don't mean that they were created in the order "Primarch/Legion/Primarch/Legion/Primarch" etc, but rather that the Lion was the first Primarch created, with the others soon following, but they were created in a definite order, which was recorded on their pods. After the Primarchs were scattered, they began creating the Legions properly, and used the genetic data of the Primarchs in numerical order.

I thought the Primarchs were all created at the same time and the numbers were just an arbitrary way to differentiate them. From the books where people go back and see them they all seem to be grown to about the same point. Also this makes more sense considering the whole "Emperor's bargain" idea.

The legions however were created in numerical order (you have to start somewhere...) as this is stated a few times and even witnessed in The First Heretic.

Sqallum
10-05-2012, 20:18
The thing that annoyed me after reading the Primarchs is that (MASSIVE SPOILER!)
He killes Nemiel...for literally no reason. He could have just demoted him, but instead punches his head off and could waste an interesting confrontation with Zahiriel if they meet on Caliban as enemies instead of cousins. It would build up characterisation, and be a very good scene. But hey :(

stormblade
11-05-2012, 08:04
The thing that annoyed me after reading the Primarchs is that (MASSIVE SPOILER!)
He killes Nemiel...for literally no reason. He could have just demoted him, but instead punches his head off and could waste an interesting confrontation with Zahiriel if they meet on Caliban as enemies instead of cousins. It would build up characterisation, and be a very good scene. But hey :(

This is seconed work by Thorpe in which a primarch somewhat randomly kills a chaplain.

Odd.

GavT
11-05-2012, 08:51
Just a brief thought on Primarach/ Legion numbers. Consider the following course of events.

Emperor creates twenty Primarchs, and as they are essentially experiments, numbers them 1-20 in no particular order to differentiate them.

Primarchs stolen by Chaos.

Emperor sighs heavily, starts making Space Marine legions from Primarch DNA, starting with geneseed from project no.1. Then project number 2.

Makes sense to me.

Gav

narrativium
11-05-2012, 11:57
The thing that annoyed me after reading the Primarchs is that (MASSIVE SPOILER!)
He killes Nemiel...for literally no reason. He could have just demoted him, but instead punches his head off and could waste an interesting confrontation with Zahiriel if they meet on Caliban as enemies instead of cousins. It would build up characterisation, and be a very good scene. But hey :(
There's good reason for that, though. Where's the danger, if you know Nemiel's going to survive everything the Heresy's going to throw at him? Now you know he didn't. Now the expectation's gone, and the story picks up excitement and unpredictability instead.

That said... what will Zahariel say when he finds out the Lion killed his friend? There's still a confrontation coming.

TheDungen
11-05-2012, 16:38
Just a brief thought on Primarach/ Legion numbers. Consider the following course of events.

Emperor creates twenty Primarchs, and as they are essentially experiments, numbers them 1-20 in no particular order to differentiate them.

Primarchs stolen by Chaos.

Emperor sighs heavily, starts making Space Marine legions from Primarch DNA, starting with geneseed from project no.1. Then project number 2.

Makes sense to me.

Gav

Ah thank you Gav, that has been bugging me for quite some time now. I also like the idea that the emperors response to years or even decades of work being undone by the chaos gods is a mere sigh.

Mikial
13-05-2012, 02:17
Russ (dunno whats the real intention here, but it makes me think of cold and "cruel" Russia)
...
So dunno, I wouldn't make a fuzz for these names, I see them basically as left-overs from a more comic-like period of 40k which was full of jokes and irony.

Actually, "Russ" was the original name of the Norse travelers that settled what later became Russia. They were essentially Swedish Viking stock. So it fits well with the SW viking personae.

TheDungen
13-05-2012, 22:44
Think i've said it before (here?) but i've always heard that Russia is a slavificiation (is that a word?) of roslagen which is in sweden. The forst nobles there came from sweden and roslagen was home to them where they came for so they named their new home the same and then the word changed because the people there spoke a Slavic language.

stormblade
13-05-2012, 23:35
They're all theories so no specific conclusion can be reached.
And using the world nobles is somewhat misleading as both societies were more or less tribal at that stage.

TheDungen
15-05-2012, 09:54
Ok how about these words; conquerors or oppressors?