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kheirakh
28-04-2012, 18:04
Hi!

If 8th edition dark elf book is coming out soon (in year 2013 maybe?), then I would like to see these things changed:

Models:
New plastic characters on foot and mounted on dark steed and cold ones
New plastic dark pegasus kit
New plastic manticore rider
New plastic dark riders
New plastic harpies
New plastic chariot
New plastic witch elves, executioners and black guard
New plastic cauldron of blood kit (chariot)
New palstic Avatar of Khaine (see below)

Rules:
Keep the eternal hatred

cheaper corsairs (hand bows should be 12" range)

cheaper dark riders

Cauldron of blood should be a support chariot with some basic support rules and some bound spells (same style as empire ones).

Assassins should be cheaper or they should have 4++ save as skaven assassins.

Manticore 5W and 5+ save.

New murderer steel giants (like in rulebook fluff) - Maybe they should make them Avatars of Khaine. Maybe a giant size model. 2+ save and 5++ save, MR(1). If it is a giant sized model, S7, T6, W5, it should have heroic killing blow rule. Unbreakable. 275-300 pts. If it would be an ogre sized model, then it should be 3 - 10 unit size, 2+ save and 5++ save (MR1), maybe normal killing blow S6, T5, W3. Unbreakable.

12-15 magic items (dark elves are more magical race than empire and orcs for example, so they should have more access to magical items. Same thing for high elves I hope.)

Some magic item which gives protection against shooting for characters and their monstorous mounts. Pendant of Khaeleth 50 pts.

Hydra 225 pts and add the spit shooting attack choise.

Shades to get poisoned attacks.

Dark magic a bit more powerful. Druchii sorcery should be +1 to cast.

Khainite characters and units to get magic items.

RBTs should be 80 pts.

What would you like to see?

Dreadlordpaul
28-04-2012, 18:24
Malekith being made worth while
Unit caps gone
Spearmen and Crossbows made better
Wizards get access to lore of beasts
Beastmasters get more monster options
Hero level beastmaster added
Tullaris gets heroic killing blow

BigbyWolf
28-04-2012, 18:34
The existing DE wishlist is probably the best place to look for this kind of thing: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?325536-Dark-Elf-Wishlist

Mozzamanx
28-04-2012, 18:44
Warriors to go up in cost and have Shields as standard gear. Like buggery do you get an Elf for less than a State Trooper.
Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.
Perhaps the reintroduction of the City Guard as a new unit.
Assassins moved out to either Rare or Hero. Can probably use a price decrease to justify taking them.
Witch Elves go up a point.
Black Guard go up, but have the unit cap removed.
Repeater gets a firepower boost. Perhaps allow 2 solid shots and reworking the multi-shot as a small blast.
I don't like the Banner of Hag Graef being an auto-pick for Executioners. I would honestly remove it and reduce the Executioners slightly to compensate.
Hydra to go up significantly. Currently it probably justifies something like 230pts.
Introduce unridden Manticore and Chimerae as similar Beastmaster units.
No idea which items to keep, but I guarantee you the Pendant is either gone, 70+ points or an Arcane item.

Also, anyone remember that 6th Edition story about the slaves? How about that for a new unit? Perhaps include it as a unit of useless troopers, with a rule allowing the Elves to shoot at them. If they panic, they are removed and replaced with an area of Dangerous/Difficult Terrain, the same size as the original units footprint.

Magic needs a lot of looking into as I believe it is probably the most abusive aspect as it stands. Honestly, I think the best solution would be to make 'Power of Darkness' the Lore Attribute for Dark Magic. Every Dark Magic spell attempt has an extra D6 added to the casting total. This can absolutely cause a Miscast. I think it would also be fair not to include any Miscast-protection items. Dark Magic should be all about the bang, and bad consequences simply indicates an inferior Wizard.

The Low King
28-04-2012, 22:21
N3rf dEm!!!!

DaemonReign
28-04-2012, 22:34
Warriors to go up in cost and have Shields as standard gear. Like buggery do you get an Elf for less than a State Trooper.
- Dark Elves do not have the same Detachment Rules (yeah the ones that are just incredibly good now)
That being said, I certainly agree that anyone arguing that Dark Elf Spearmen should be cheaper is quite mad.
Giving them a sheild and raising their cost 1-2 points would be all right I reckon.


Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.
- At the very least, yes.


Assassins moved out to either Rare or Hero. Can probably use a price decrease to justify taking them.
- Don't know about price decrease (or increase for that matter), but they'll move to a slot for sure. As they should.


Witch Elves go up a point.
- Yeah, pretty much.


Black Guard go up, but have the unit cap removed.
- With no size cap or number [of units] cap (which I agree is boring, but fluffy) they would indeed have to go up conciderably.


Repeater gets a firepower boost. Perhaps allow 2 solid shots and reworking the multi-shot as a small blast.
- It's bad, yes. But think a slight decrease to cost is more likely. Not that I have anything against your idea as such.


I don't like the Banner of Hag Graef being an auto-pick for Executioners. I would honestly remove it and reduce the Executioners slightly to compensate.
- Executioners probably deserve the pointdrop either way.


Hydra to go up significantly. Currently it probably justifies something like 230pts.
- Assuming it gets some 'buff' on the way, sure. Otherwise this is comming on a bit too strong in my opinion, it'd be just fine just over ~200 points. Really.


Introduce unridden Manticore and Chimerae as similar Beastmaster units.
- Yeah why not. Anything goes.


No idea which items to keep, but I guarantee you the Pendant is either gone, 70+ points or an Arcane item.
- Yeah I guess it's the typical kind of item that a Designer just can't leave alone just to show everybody how clever he is.. Sort of like removing the Regen Banner for Graveguard. So many counters to this item, the one that really doesn't fit with 8th Ed would be the Sacrificial Dagger and the unlimited dice per spell cast...


Also, anyone remember that 6th Edition story about the slaves? How about that for a new unit? Perhaps include it as a unit of useless troopers, with a rule allowing the Elves to shoot at them. If they panic, they are removed and replaced with an area of Dangerous/Difficult Terrain, the same size as the original units footprint.
- This sounds far-fetched to me. Slaves of the Dark Elves would run toward almost any enemy with open arms and white handkercheifs held up high.. And assuming they're too shackled to do that we're basically talking about a (quite depressing) 'meat-wall' that shouldn't have an attack-value at all.. I just don't see this manifesting itself into something that adds something 'fun' to the army. Sorry. I may be mistaken though.



Magic needs a lot of looking into as I believe it is probably the most abusive aspect as it stands. Honestly, I think the best solution would be to make 'Power of Darkness' the Lore Attribute for Dark Magic. Every Dark Magic spell attempt has an extra D6 added to the casting total. This can absolutely cause a Miscast. I think it would also be fair not to include any Miscast-protection items. Dark Magic should be all about the bang, and bad consequences simply indicates an inferior Wizard.
- While I'd worry that adding an entire D6 to every casting attempt would be just slightly off the mark of 'balance' I do believe you're on to something interesting here. Bottom line is the rule as it stands currently is one of the more 'problematic' items on the slate for Dark Elves.

Just my 2c.

Btw, Dark Elves is my main 'nemesis' that almost always tables me. :)

The Low King
28-04-2012, 22:51
Hydras and their magic are my main issue.

Hydras a feel the SoM went in the right way, 220 points with no beast masters factored in. Add them and i would say probably closer to 250 points. Currently i would rather face a Ghorgon or a Sphinx than a hydra 7+d6 S5 attacks, 6 (it is that isnt it?) S3 AP attacks, Breath weapon, Regen and Scaly skin is very powerful.

Magic wise, remove their ability to throw so many dice at spells...or maybe a special rule that they can go over the limit but any doubles count as a miscast or something....

tmarichards
28-04-2012, 23:16
A general increase in points across the board is in order. Core choices up by 1-2 points each, Black Guard up 3-4pts each, shades up to 20pts each and the hydra up to 225 and no longer having Hatred on the gribbly itself.

Being able to throw more than 6 dice at a spell is an outdated and abusive mechanic that needs to go immediately as it is only bad for the game. I'm a big fan of each race having some sort of extra special rules for their casters, so I'd prefer to see a return to the 6th edition special rule of +1 to all casting rolls, which would still be very very good.

The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

The magic items could also do with a general points increase across the board. The Sacrificial Dagger need to go up to at least 65pts, or more preferably leave the game altogether. Lifetaker needs to go up, as does the Frenzy banner and the ASF banner. The Pendant needs to have a pts increase- doubled would be very fair- or at the very least be moved to an arcane slot to fit the fluff a little better. Maybe the Pendant and Black Amulet could have their points costs reversed?

Don Zeko
28-04-2012, 23:43
A general increase in points across the board is in order. Core choices up by 1-2 points each, Black Guard up 3-4pts each, shades up to 20pts each and the hydra up to 225 and no longer having Hatred on the gribbly itself.

Being able to throw more than 6 dice at a spell is an outdated and abusive mechanic that needs to go immediately as it is only bad for the game. I'm a big fan of each race having some sort of extra special rules for their casters, so I'd prefer to see a return to the 6th edition special rule of +1 to all casting rolls, which would still be very very good.

The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

The magic items could also do with a general points increase across the board. The Sacrificial Dagger need to go up to at least 65pts, or more preferably leave the game altogether. Lifetaker needs to go up, as does the Frenzy banner and the ASF banner. The Pendant needs to have a pts increase- doubled would be very fair- or at the very least be moved to an arcane slot to fit the fluff a little better. Maybe the Pendant and Black Amulet could have their points costs reversed?

Most of that sounds good to me. I think the Hydra doesn't need a huge points increase if it loses hatred - maybe 200 even? A modest points drop in dark riders and cold one knights would probably also be in order. The Khainite rule either needs to be abolished entirely or allow Masters and Dreadlords to become Khainite, with my preference being to ditch it entirely. I'm not sure exactly how to deal with assassins, but if they stay a unit upgrade they need to drop dramatically in effectiveness and points. Maybe give them the 5th edition statline (1 wound, 2 attacks), with KB and ASF for 40-50 points?

Lord Dan
29-04-2012, 01:06
Agreed with Tom's points above, pretty much across-the-board point increases are in order. Assassins should be characters again, spearmen need to be enough points to justify them coming with shields standard, and the cap on black guard needs to be removed.

Bikhu
29-04-2012, 04:32
Points increases for spearmen, repeaters, witchelves, and blackguard seem quite likely given what we have seen in other 8th ed releases so far. I would also think that assassins going to character choice is likely, and would improve them for both fun and gameplay. I would honestly be very surprised if DE kept Power of Darkness and the ability to throw more than six dice at a spell. Both of those abilities seem very out of line with 8th edition and the VC book is at least one data point indicating some attempt on GW's part to reign in the magic domination effects of 7th.

I agree with posters above that the Hydra should lose hatred and go to about 200 points. Or perhaps lose hatred and stay at current point value but the handlers are not included in that point cost.

The pendant needs to be thrown in the abyss or move to an arcane item. Currently it is too much of an easy crutch for the DE player and a frustrating fun reducer for the DE player's opponent. (On a side note, I wonder if GW is of the mindset of mitigating the ability to create unkillable characters in general, no solid evidence of this that I can think of but it sounds about right for some reason)

Surprisingly, I have never had to face a cauldron of blood, though I have seen it in action. It is very good and I can see it losing its ability to offer a variety of always work buffs, on the other hand we see the continuing existence of always work buffs in the new Empire book.

Make the light cavalry option worth taking and drop coldones by a point just like the empire knights. Repeater Boltthrower should drop in points too.

Too cheap troops with hatred, that damn pendant, and over the top magic are my main complaints against the DE army. Being able to get Mindrazor off too consistently and too easily on a charge turn is just annoying to face (oh look, I total powered Mindrazor on 8 dice, looks like I strike first and reroll to hit with 41 spearmen attacks at WS4 and Str9...fun huh)

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 05:28
Here's my list of things I would change.

General:

-Get rid of Eternal Hatred, put back in Hatred High Elves. Scrap Khainites.

Heroes:

-Dread Lords and Nobles cheaper. T3 is not a good thing to be in the era of step up.
-(High) Sorceresses a tiny bit cheaper. Get rid of PoD and Unlimited Dice. Put in only miscasts on Triple 6s to represent the fact they're accustomed to channeling large amounts of dangerous magic. Access to all BRB lores, Dhar is using the eight winds willy-nilly so why wouldn't DE have access to all eight of those winds?
-Either move to Heroes with Built in 4+ ward (step up again!) or a return to their 5th edd flavour. 1W 2A unit upgrade with ASF and KB ~25-35pts.
-Hags and Assassins (if still heroes), get access to non-armour magic items. Cauldron, 1 reasonable AoE buff, a couple of bound spells.


Troops:

-8 points for Warriors with shields built in. 12 for Crossbows with Shields. Corsairs for 9 with handbows built in. Dark Riders drop to 15-16 base. Harpies moved to special.
-Witch Elves and Black Guard go up a point each. Execs and Knights go down one.
-Hydra keep as is but boost to 200. Bolt Throwers... ugh... drop to ~75. Make them 4 S4 no AS shots. Makes them useful against monsters and infantry/cavalry you'd want to shoot at.


Magic items: Both High and Dark should receive a few more than standard.
-Executioner's Axe: +2S, no-ASL, Two-handed, Heroic Killing Blow 65 points.
-Chillblade. Budget Runefang. Rolls of 6 to hit wound automatically no AS. 40-50 points.
-Whip of Agony. As is, monstrous cav and Large monsters must re-roll successful roll to hits. 35pts

-Armour of Living Death. Like the concept but not iffy on execution. +1T, regain 1 wound at the start of each friendly turn, cannot be destroyed, same cost (60). Fits the fluff, gives you a survivable Genenral with out PoK crutch and abuse.
-Cloak of Hag Graef. Make it against all attacks. 50 points.
-Blood Armour. Keep as is.

-Black Amulet. Drop to 55.
-Pendant of Khaleth. Sorceresses only. Still good but not really abusive.
-Ring of Darkness drop to 30.

-Focus Familiar. Keep, I like it.
-Stabby Knife. Keep at 25, sacrifice a model to re-roll one casting dice instead.

-Crystal of Midnight. Keep as is.

-Banner of Nagarythe. Keep as is. Allow bearer to take his normal allowance of magic items to represent the Witch King's favour.
-ASF Banner. Boost to 50.
-Banner of Cold Blood. Boost to 50, Cold Blooded all the time. Knights only.

Don Zeko
29-04-2012, 05:39
Here's my list of things I would change.

General:

-Get rid of Eternal Hatred, put back in Hatred High Elves. Scrap Khainites.

Losing eternal hatred is bigger debuff than anything else on your list. If you go this route (and i would really prefer not to), then if you'll need point decreases, not increases, across the board.

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 05:56
Losing eternal hatred is bigger debuff than anything else on your list. If you go this route (and i would really prefer not to), then if you'll need point decreases, not increases, across the board.

Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2012, 07:53
The Cauldron, probably the second most broken model in the entire game in my opinion, needs to be changed so that it no longer goes off automatically. I think it would work better as a rare choice with a choice of bound spells, similar to the change to the Casket.

Don't the new Empire wagons give off there buff automatically? Or are they actually bound spells as well? I haven't seen the book, but I imagine that would be a good clue as to what might happen.

Aside from that I think both the High Elf and the Dark Elf book really needs two things. First being usable Repeater Bolt Throwers. It's a crappy machine at about twice the price it needs to as it's priced for a completely different set of rules for a completely different game. And both of them should lose their "racial" special rule. ASF and Enternal Hatred are both silly, don't fit and makes both armies a bit wonky to work with. Just scrap them and develop the armies from there.

Glenn87
29-04-2012, 11:00
A Few things I want:
- More special Characters (Make Tullaris and Kouran a Hero-type SC).
- Unit cap removed from the Black Guard
- Changes to the magic.

vcassano
29-04-2012, 11:38
Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

Dark Elves were a notoriously weak book prior to the introduction of Eternal Hatred in 7th. Obviously it was not the only reason they got a big boost, but it is one of the most signficiant improvements the army received. Personally, I like it. But it is currently undercosted.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2012, 11:56
1. Hatred on mounts backs
2. +1 to cast instead of that daft unlimited dice ability
3. Keep Power of Darkness in some form
4. Lose the unit cap on Black Guard
5. Khainite back to not allowing mages to join the unit
6. The Volley rule for Reaper Bolt Throwers needs to be made useful

No doubt each and every decent magical item we have is going to be ruined utterly in 8th by either being increased in value or removed in favour of a different item nobody really uses. I fully expect the Web of Shadows to remain, in it's current form as a 50pt item and the Black Amulet to still exist as an overpriced 4+ ward save with an obscene price.

We may see the hydra nerfed, we may not.
Monsters have been boosted in power and lowered in cost so far, the hydra isn't particularly unfair as a result.

I really just want mounts with hatred back personally.

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 13:43
Dark Elves were a notoriously weak book prior to the introduction of Eternal Hatred in 7th. Obviously it was not the only reason they got a big boost, but it is one of the most signficiant improvements the army received.

No doubt dark elves were fairly borked to start off with in 6th. But the revision [and extra items from the SoC] did a lot to put them on an even footing with other books. Eternal Hatred was overkill IMO, and part of the 7th edd bad habit of slapping on army wide rules for it's own sake.

Arnizipal
29-04-2012, 14:55
The existing DE wishlist is probably the best place to look for this kind of thing: www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?325536-Dark-Elf-Wishlist
Thread is almost half a year old though...

Don Zeko
29-04-2012, 15:21
Dark Elves did fine before they had it, and it was frankly overkill that just put in because high elves got ASF. I remember I played the crummy 6th edd army. Even with the revision the price-line was similar. Fighty heroes would be noticeably cheaper (and able to support units like witch elves and execs) and assassins worth using as unit buffs again. Whilst Black Guard wouldn't miss it. The list wouldn't need points cuts across the board.

I played Dark Elves back in 6th Edition too, and I really don't see where this is coming from. Before the revision, DE had, for example, 10 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred. After the revision, we had 8 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred, which is basically what you're suggesting we go back to. That brings us to the power level of an average 6th Edition army book, which is probably weaker than where Wood Elves are now. If your models are all low toughness, low strength, and high point value, you need to have something else to make things work out. This suggestion is just going crazy with the nerf bat. It reminds me of the fellow in that old thread on the subject that suggested DE spearmen should be as expensive as High Elf Spearmen, despite the fact that HE spears have ASF, fight in an extra rank, and are probably still overpriced. The goal of this exercise should be a balanced army book, not karmic retribution for the OP book we've had since 7th.

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 15:41
I played Dark Elves back in 6th Edition too, and I really don't see where this is coming from. Before the revision, DE had, for example, 10 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred. After the revision, we had 8 point spearmen and 10 point corsairs without hatred, which is basically what you're suggesting we go back to.

8 Point spears is pretty fair. Empire pay 6 for theirs with shields. Maybe with heavy armour stand too to compensate for the lack of detachments. I also suggested 9 point corsairs with extra hand weapons and handbows built in. It's pretty much on level with the 8th edition books. Which would also be compensated for in part by cheaper lords/heroes, useful assassins, cheaper bolts throwers, dark riders and knights.


That brings us to the power level of an average 6th Edition army book, which is probably weaker than where Wood Elves are now. If your models are all low toughness, low strength, and high point value, you need to have something else to make things work out.

Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors.


This suggestion is just going crazy with the nerf bat.

And you're getting into hysterics. Eternal Hatred was a crutch and a band-aid.


It reminds me of the fellow in that old thread on the subject that suggested DE spearmen should be as expensive as High Elf Spearmen, despite the fact that HE spears have ASF, fight in an extra rank, and are probably still overpriced.

Again hysterics. They'd still be cheaper than HE spears and I'm pretty sure HE will lose ASF in their next book. I could see HE staying at 9 points for extra rank and heavy armour, like they used to get in 5th.


The goal of this exercise should be a balanced army book, not karmic retribution for the OP book we've had since 7th.

If you say so. But it sounds to me like you've got a bad case of the 'I'm entitled to my entitlements.'

Don Zeko
29-04-2012, 15:52
Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors....And you're getting into hysterics. Eternal Hatred was a crutch and a band-aid....Again hysterics....If you say so. But it sounds to me like you've got a bad case of the 'I'm entitled to my entitlements.'

First of all, 8-point Dark elf spearmen with eternal hatred are hardly going to power through enemy units unsupported, and I don't expect them too. But the real issue here is that you don't seem to understand how powerful re-rolls to hit are. In the first round of combat (and in my experience, probably 60% of combats are over after the first round with DE), Eternal Hatred improves the damage output of Dark Elf troops by between 30% and 50%. So losing it is only slightly less of a debuff than losing a point of strength would be in most combats. You can't get around this by talking about how powerful the amended 6th edition book was, since 6th Edition books were all weaker than the average 8th edition book and far weaker than any 7th edition book.

The Low King
29-04-2012, 15:56
Rerolls to hit are too powerful. Either increase their price or remove hatred.

Hoshiyami
29-04-2012, 16:01
8 Point spears is pretty fair. Empire pay 6 for theirs with shields. Maybe with heavy armour stand too to compensate for the lack of detachments. I also suggested 9 point corsairs with extra hand weapons and handbows built in. It's pretty much on level with the 8th edition books. Which would also be compensated for in part by cheaper lords/heroes, useful assassins, cheaper bolts throwers, dark riders and knights.


Isn't it tricky to compare them to empire spearmen? If I played empire and fielded them I'm pretty sure I wouldn't pay for their shields.



Post-revision dark elves were pretty decent. I don't know where you're getting this. The book would have support units. Expecting core infantry to power their way through enemy units unsupported seems a bit much, unless you're talking about really high end stuff like Chaos Warriors.


People expect expensive core infantry to do something against cheap enemy units, yes... it's their fault?

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 16:01
You can't get around this by talking about how powerful the amended 6th edition book was, since 6th Edition books were all weaker than the average 8th edition book and far weaker than any 7th edition book.

My point is you're looking at one thing and saying OMG nerf! The changes I proposed have to be taken holistically and were done with the intention of putting the book somewhere between the 6th eddition and 7th books. Which is where the new 8th books seem to be lining up. For dark elves [unfortunately] that does mean something akin to a net loss of power, because honestly 7th made them OP as Karma for 6th borking them.

zak
29-04-2012, 16:04
Having played DE since 5th I seem to have a different memory to you. The revision in points did little to assist DE and in no way made them on par with most of the other books. Eternal Hatred gave them character and an the offensive buff they needed. I think the 7th edition book just got the point costs wrong. The Hydra was too cheap and should never have got hatred. At 200 points without hatred the Hydra would still be good. Warriors and x-bows need to go up by a point (x-bows maybe by 2). The Cold Ones were given great models, but were too expensive and were rarely taken. I hope like other cavalry in 8th the points cost are dropped. Reaper Bolt throwers need to be reduced to 75 points. Certain magic items either need to be buried or get a price hike (I think we all know the culprits here). I like the idea of more monsters for the handlers. Unridden Cold Ones as a pack sounds great.

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 16:06
People expect expensive core infantry to do something against cheap enemy units, yes... it's their fault?

And pretty much all core infantry got more expensive. The exception being undead, because they were over priced to begin with. Dark elves would still have an edge. Empire swords are 7. DE at 8 isn't unreasonable. Throw in heavy armour too and it's borderline cheap.


Having played DE since 5th I seem to have a different memory to you. The revision in points did little to assist DE and in no way made them on par with most of the other books.

Memory is a tricky thing. I did just fine with post-revision dark elves in 6th.


Eternal Hatred gave them character and an the offensive buff they needed.

I think Eternal Hatred took away some of their character and made them into a bunch of thoughtless hateful haters who hate because they hate. I've been playing since 5th edd too and dark elves used to be professional disciplined warriors, the only time their emotions really got in the way of doing their job was against high elves due to intense enmity. Otherwise, they may be malicious and spiteful, but other people's/races didn't provoke that sort of emotion response.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2012, 16:22
Empire spearmen are 6pts each with sheilds.
Currently dark elf spearmen are 7pts each with the same equipment.

They get +1 weaponskill, +2 inititative, +1 leadership, +1 movement and hatred, however they do not have a detachment rule.

The extra weaponskill is a boost.
Extra inititative is fairly meaningless in a unit that has to be taken in large amounts
Extra leadership is again fairly meaningless due to inspiring presence
Extra movement is also fairly meaningless on a unit that is built to take a charge
Hatred is a bonus, as it's re-rolls to hit which provides a big benefit when combined with the higher initiative and weaponskill.

Making them cost a point more is reasonable but ultimately not necessary.
Making them cost 9pts with sheilds is not reasonable as they are not worth 3pts a model over a standard empire spearmen is.

Remember the empire does have access to things that it is expected to see within the army.
The War Altar/Warrior Priests to grant the unit hatred
Hurricanum/Luminark to grant +1 to hit/a 6+ ward

While these do not come directly out of the cost for the spearmen, nor are the guaranteed to be on the board, they nonetheless provide some benefit and spearmen and most units are expected to benefit from at least one of them. With the dark elves the only boost is the Cauldren of Blood and for the most part you would expect it not to benefit spearmen, but instead benefit some more elite unit.

9pts DE spearmen is daft unless you are going to give them heavy armour and/or armour piercing attacks.

Knifeparty
29-04-2012, 16:25
Ok, I understand that DE are powerful, but honestly most of these nerf suggestions will make DE completely neutered like the 6th edition book.

Eternal Hatred is the reason that DE work. It makes the army, without it they will be garbage. Eternal Hatred is fluffy and useful. It has to stay.

Warriors and Crossbows are fine. Anyone who has played this game for long enough knows that St 3 sucks, and doesnt win you games. Keep their points value.

Black Guard should have unit cap removed.

Executioners Drop by 1 point.

Witch Elves go up by 1 or 2 points gain ASF

Cauldron Becomes Chariot, or gets pulled by Witches or Executioners

Dark Riders go down by a few points.

Corsairs go down by 2 points, repeater pistols get 12" range, armour piercing and brace of pistols special rules for +3 points per model.

Cold One Knights go down by 2 points

Bolt Throwers get massive damage increase in some way. keep points value the same. I hate it when people spam artillery.

Hydras go up to 220 points

New Moster in Rare choice possibly

Possibly Dark Pegasus Rider cavalry, or Manticore Cavalry for new units.

Possibly Assassin units in rare.

A Carnifex Lord or Hero choice to make fluffy Khaine Lists.

Dark Magic become super devastating. Remove the ability to throw more than 6 dice.

8 Magic items:

Armour of Darkness - 40 points

Driach of Dark Power makes a return- 50 points

Pendant stays- 50 points

Ring of Hotek- 40 points (only affects the unit that the bearer is in)

Executioner Axe- 70 points (doubles strength and has heroic killing blow)

Sacrifical Dagger- 50 points

Tomb of Furion -35 points (makes you loremaster)

Hydra Banner -75 points

The Low King
29-04-2012, 16:40
...Tzeench was here.....

That doesnt seem to make them any weaker.....there are as many points decreases/improvements as there are increases

Drasanil
29-04-2012, 17:01
9pts DE spearmen is daft unless you are going to give them heavy armour and/or armour piercing attacks.

Just as a clarification since this seemed to be aimed at me. I suggested 8 with shields built in and possibly heavy armour too if they suffer too much for it.

Glenn87
29-04-2012, 20:18
Maybe we should take a look at what makes DE's really OP (to some):

- Throwing more then 6 Dice at any spell
- Having free acces to Power of Darkness
- the Sac. Dagger
- Pendand of Khaeleth
- Cheap Hydra

Problem 1 will probally just dissapear, and problem 2 too. (I expect PoD to become the sig. spell, so they'll HAVE to take Dark Magic and sacrifice another spell for it.
Problem 3-4 will also be fixed, because either they'll dissapear, or they'll get a HUGE point increase.
Problem 5, the Hydra, we all know is going to get a point increase.

I don't think that spearmen should get an increase. Corsairs should get a decrease.
Spearmen and corsairs both have light armour, and where spearmen get spear and shield, corsairs get a Sea Dragon Cloak. Both should be around the same point cost (7-8ish WITH shield and extra hand weapon build in). Maybe give them standard Handbows, wich'll count as an extra hand weapon.
RxB's could raise 1pt perhaps, and Witch Elves could raise 1-2. Executioners should stay the same or maybe drop a point. Just think about the other 8th armies' elite units: Grave Guard are 11, Black Orcs are 12, Ogres can't really be compared as they've got a MI statline, Tomb Guards are 11. Don't know how much greatswords cost.


The main problem with DE's is their abuse of magic. With the 6+ dice, the dagger and Power of Darkness spell gone/fixed, I think DE's will be alot less OP, but still able to be competitive. Another trend with previous army books is that most of the time you HAVE to have a wizard with the Book's own Magic lore. (Ogres MUST have Great Maw, O&G Can't choose any other, VC need a model with the lore of the Vampires, don't know about TK's, Empire is an exeption). Maybe make Shadow only available to a Lord level wizard.

About the beastmaster/Monsters, maybe something like a squig herd-ish thing:
standard 2 beastmasters (8-10 point range each), and you can add a 3th one.
options:
You MUST choose one of the following:
Hydra +200 points (no eternal hatred, nor any other army rules)
Manticore +xxx points
Chimerae +xxx points
.... any other cool monster.

Bikhu
29-04-2012, 21:44
I am willing to admit that I may be off-base in some way, but I really do not see how spearmen are fine at their current point cost. 1 more point of movement and 2 more points of initiative seem significant, though I will admit they are not super buff. Mov 5 is helpful on any infantry unit, even one that is intended to take a charge. It allows them to get into position after initial set up easier, which, in my experience, can be quite important. It also allows them a larger charge threat range when necessary, and there are times when you will want to charge your spearmen at units that do not want to be in combat with big blocks of anything (like skirmishers).

Having higher initiative is helpful for spells (obviously), but it has also made a difference in many many combats to which I have been a party. Attacking first means you have a chance to take away some attacks back. I know that with only str 3 those attacks may bounce off of many tough units, but even against my horde of 40 dwarf GW warriors it has made a difference. My horde was down to 32 or 33 after repeater xbow volleys, and 41 rerolled str 3 attacks will kill 8 5+ armor save dwarfs on average and he rolled a bit above average to leave me with only 22 dwarfs, taking away 8 attacks from me. That seems significant.

Add those two stat bonuses with +1 WS, ld9, and eternal hatred, and combine that with the greater importance of infantry in 8th, and I do not see how DE spearmen are not worth at least a 1 point increase in cost. Though I do agree that corsairs should be the same point cost as spearmen.

theunwantedbeing
29-04-2012, 21:52
Though I do agree that corsairs should be the same point cost as spearmen.

Cheaper Corsairs? Sweet! I would adore 8pt corsairs, or should they be 7pts?

DragonArmy
29-04-2012, 22:02
Whoa. It's not that I disagree with changing some of the broken parts of DE, but take them away and your left with very mediocre choices.

We are still talking about T3 S3 units. 7-8 point spearmen without hatred sounds not worth it in comparison to most other armies.


I don't think people realize how all their nerfs would add up.

Bikhu
29-04-2012, 22:29
Cheaper Corsairs? Sweet! I would adore 8pt corsairs, or should they be 7pts?

Hah!...I totally forgot about the Sea Dragon cloak, more some reason I just thought they had extra hand weapon and slaver rule, my mistake. Not sure how I blanked on that given how many times I have faced them. So no, I suppose 8 point corsairs would be underpriced and 10 points seems about right. I also face them in horde formation all the time, so spears and extra hand weapon have almost the same effect (10 more attacks). On the other hand, I still maintain that 7 point spearmen with shields is too cheap for their stats and eternal hatred.

Don Zeko
30-04-2012, 00:07
On the other hand, I still maintain that 7 point spearmen with shields is too cheap for their stats and eternal hatred.

I concur. 8 or 9 points would be perfectly reasonable, so long as they keep hatred.

kheirakh
30-04-2012, 10:01
I would like that Dark elves keep the eternal hatered rule, because it makes them stand out from the other armies and that is the thing that makes them so scary. Some people said that they don't need this rule, but they really need this rule.
8 pts spearmen would be reasonable price for spearmen with shields.
12 pts crossbow elves with shields is also very reasonable.
11-12 pts corsairs with two hand weapons and repeater hand bows as basic would make them worthwhile.
Dark riders should be 20 pts with RXBs. 15 pts without. 16 pts with shields.
Harpies should be moved to special slots and make them 16 pts with scout rule.
Make shades 20 pts with RXBs and additional hand weapons + poisoned attacks.
Black guard should be 14 pts with their unit cap removed.
Executioners should be 12 pts and 50 pts magical standard added + magical items for champion.
Witch elves should be 12 pts with always strike first rule added.
Cold one chariot 90 pts.
Cold one knights 24 pts.
War hydra 225 pts. Add spit weapon choise.
RBTs 90 pts, multiple shooting should be changed to small blast with S4 AS-2.
New unit: Avatar of Khaine (giant sized model). M6, Ws 10, Bs-, S 7, T6, W5, I9, A5, Ld10. Terror, Large target, Eternal hatered, Heroic killing blow, Magical attacks, Unbreakable, Unstable. 2+ save and 5++ save, MR(1). 325 pts.
Assassins should be characters with 4++ save as basic for the same price.
If they keep PoK, then it should indeed be moved to arcane items and be 50 pts.
Sacrifisical dagger should be 35 pts.
Lifetaker could be 4xshots for the same price. Or 2xshots with sniper rule for the same price.
An item that grants 4++ save against shooting for the bearer and the monstorous mount would be nice (50pts).
Druchii sorcery should be +1 to cast.
Magic: Combine chill wind and doombolt - 5+ to cast D6 S4 hits (+ shooting modifier), 10+ to cast D6+3 S5 hits (with shooting modifier), 15 + to cast 2D6 S6 hits (with shooting modifier)
I don't know about the other spells, but boosts are needed.
(Games Workshop is free to playtest and use these rules :D)

Why
01-05-2012, 03:14
We are still talking about T3 S3 units. 7-8 point spearmen without hatred sounds not worth it in comparison to most other armies.


I don't think people realize how all their nerfs would add up.

8 point elf spearmen not worth it. Wow my Eternal guard must be worse than anything else in the entire game x2.

Honestly, 8 point spearmen without hatred is not great, make them 8 points with hatred and they are all good, even at 9 points they are still pretty good.

m1acca1551
01-05-2012, 04:02
Can i ask why people are calling for the unit cap to be removed from black guard? Is this just people wishing to field the like a horde and not the small combat elite units that they are?

decker_cky
01-05-2012, 05:39
8th edition doesn't have unit caps.

Spearmen with hatred at 8 pts with shields is about right. Possibly 8 pts without shields, 0.5 pts for the shield if GW feels like going that way (since the battalion is selling warriors without shields as an option).

RXB should go up a point or two.

Corsairs should be 9-10 pts.

Witches more expensive.

Hydra should be 220ish with no hatred on the monster, like in SoM.

Dragon and Manticore should be cheaper.

Cauldron with a lesser passive ability, and other bound spells.

Broken magic items all removed.

Lord Dan
01-05-2012, 06:31
8 point elf spearmen not worth it. Wow my Eternal guard must be worse than anything else in the entire game x2.

Not sure if this was meant to be sarcastic, but if it wasn't then this was probably a bad example. Eternal guard are probably one of the worst units in the game.

Count Zero
01-05-2012, 08:08
I'm not sure if i like the idea of the cauldron being on a chariot, even if that was its original configuration. i'd can see it swapping to a casket of souls type thing with 48" bound spells, possibly with boosted versions if they are cast on Khainite units.

I hope the Khainite theme is expanded on, the death hag's/assassins etc need to get access to 4+ wards as with step up and supporting attacks they just can't survive currently. I wonder if the disciple of khaine from W:AR might make and appearance. Could be nice

I can see 1-2 point rises across the board for the infantry units, with the cav coming down.

The mages need toning down, but also get a slight points reduction (empire lvl 4 got a 10point drop). limit casting to 6 dice and go back to +1 to cast. I can see a version of the sac dag and power of darkness becoming some kind of lore attribute/innate ability.

Obviously the rares need adjusting in both cases.

Does seem with the way things have been going some kind of monstrous unit will make it in.

StygianBeach
01-05-2012, 09:43
Lore of Darkness.
Lore attribute; Inflict 1 hit (strength equal to the number of dice used to cast the spell) to the caster, or 1 model (friend of foe) within 18''. Gain 1 power dice if a wound is inflicted.

Signature spell: Power of Darkness. 4+
Same.

1.Chillwind. Magic Missile. 6+
D6+1, otherwise same. Extended: 10+. Range 48''. D6+D3 Str 4 hits. no Shooting if wounded.

2. Doombolt. Magic Missile. 7+
D6+1, otherwise same. Extended: 11+. Range 36''. D6+D3 Str 5 hits.

4. Word of Pain. Hex. 8+
Same. Extended: 14+. Range 48''

3. Death Spasm. Direct Damage. 10+
Range 18''. Seclect 1 model. Pass Strength test or dies. No saves. Models in Base contact suffer Str4 hit. Extended: 16+. Range 36'''.

5.Dominion. Hex. 10+
Range 12''. Select 1 action (move, shoot or cast spells). The unit may not perform this action. Extended: 14+. Range 24''.

6. Arnizipals Black Horror. Direct Damage. 11+
Range 18''. Large template. Strength test or wound, no saves. Panic test if wounds. Extended: 17+. Range 36'' Scatters D6''. Strength test or wound, no saves. Panic test if wounds.

Count Zero
01-05-2012, 10:33
Interesting ideas, death spasm looks a bit good though, esp if you hex strength before hand somehow.

StygianBeach
01-05-2012, 10:36
Interesting ideas, death spasm looks a bit good though, esp if you hex strength before hand somehow.

Yeah.. I pulled it from the 5th ed book... I used to love using that spell back in the day...

decker_cky
01-05-2012, 15:50
It's a bit sad that 7th edition forced so much special rules creep onto the two elf armies that were released (and WE started the special rules creep back in 6th). 8th edition does a much better job of letting great statlines shine through. Obviously hatred makes DE better, but I think 8th edition is much more suited to having a successful book which looks more like the 6th edition DE book.

Cheap DE spearmen (let's say 7 pts with shield and no hatred).
Corsairs as an alternative core - better against shooting and offensively, but slightly more expensive. 9 pts, SDC is the only special rule.
Witch elves and executioners as cheap elites throwing out either lots of low strength poison, or high strength killing blow attacks (10ish pts each).
Black guard with stubborn, and warrior elite. Don't need the second attack tacked on. 12-13 pts.

etc...

The problem with the 6th edition elf books was that good stats but low survivability didn't work in 6th edition (or 7th), and the fact that the elves overpaid for soft stats (WS and I) was silly. 8th corrects that at the core IMO. You'd almost have to release HE and DE back to back to make a change like this, since they're always viewed in comparison to each other.

theunwantedbeing
01-05-2012, 16:05
Can i ask why people are calling for the unit cap to be removed from black guard? Is this just people wishing to field the like a horde and not the small combat elite units that they are?

They're only small units at the moment because of the unit cap which prevents them from being a horde.
Also unit caps are gone from 8th edition so it's natural for them to be removed in the next dark elf book.

Also they aren't very survivable being To3 with a measly 5+ save so people would like to take bigger units so they can survive getting hit by spells/shooting without having the unit get crippled completely.

Petey
01-05-2012, 17:34
I d like to see hatred removed from the army except on characters and bestowed by either the cauldron or a disciple of khaine. I would add an army special rule that allows DE to reroll failed to.wound rolls called something like savagery or cruelty.

DE spearman at 8pts. Corsairs at 10. New characters. All the new crap that comes w 8th

Phazael
01-05-2012, 18:11
Hatred is actually not that big of a game breaker, in the age of steadfast and deathstarhammer. The army mainly needs slight alterations to point costs and certain magic items reworked and/or removed, but it has to be done on a case by case basis, as the DE book's balance issues are systemic and multiple. Here is where I would begin:

Magic Phase-
Allow DE wizards to cast with 7 Dice, but no more. Power of Darkness should be a default spell for Lore of Darkness, not available to all DE wizards.

Magic Items-
Ring of Hotek- Raise it to 35 points to prevent it from being carried by a unit champ or easily defended peg hero.
Pendant of Kaeleth- If they keep it, change it to an Arcane Item so its a difficult choice to take.
Sacrificial Dagger- Sacrifice a model to reroll the entire casting roll, once per magic phase only.

Characters-
Move Assasins back to the hero slot.
Witch characters and Assasins be allowed to select gear (other than armor) and gifts with 50 of each, ala vamp heros.

Core Infantry-
Price down Corsairs to 8 per model and remove the Sea Serpent banner from the game.
Spearmen- Allow for a HW and shield option with warriors and make them 8 per model.
Harpies- Move to special
Witches- Move to core and price at 11 per model. (see cauldron changes to understand justification)
Crossbowmen- Raise cost one point per model.

Elites-
Cold One Knights- Price them down to 25 per model.
Black Guard- Remove unit cap, but raise cost to 15 per model.
Executioners- Either make them WS5 or drop the points to 11 per model. (see cauldron)
Shades- Unit size 10-15 and do not allow assasins to be hidden in the unit.
Chariots- Fine as is.

Rares-
Bolt Throwers- Reduce cost to 75 per model and dump the 2/1 choice.
War Hydra- Change Handler rules to bring it in line with the main rulebook, dump hatred on the beast, and increase its cost to 200.
Cauldron- Obviously move the Cauldron to rare, thereby removing its BSB option. Rather than select a buff, it should radiate frenzy to all units within 6" and a 5+ ward to all khainite units in the same radius, including itself. Reclassify it as a 3 wound war machine with T10 and drop the cost to 130. No more KB stubborn witches, no more death blender black guard, and it now has to stick close to the army to do its job.

Lord Dan
01-05-2012, 19:11
I agree with many points here. I just have a few thoughts:


Hatred is actually not that big of a game breaker, in the age of steadfast and deathstarhammer. The army mainly needs slight alterations to point costs and certain magic items reworked and/or removed, but it has to be done on a case by case basis, as the DE book's balance issues are systemic and multiple. Here is where I would begin:

Magic Phase-
Allow DE wizards to cast with 7 Dice, but no more. Power of Darkness should be a default spell for Lore of Darkness, not available to all DE wizards.
Agreed.

Magic Items-
Ring of Hotek- Raise it to 35 points to prevent it from being carried by a unit champ or easily defended peg hero.
Agreed.
Pendant of Kaeleth- If they keep it, change it to an Arcane Item so its a difficult choice to take.
I don't think it needs to be arcane, it just needs a price hike. As 4+ wards are 45 points, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the pendant should be 55 points so that only lord level characters can take it.
Sacrificial Dagger- Sacrifice a model to reroll the entire casting roll, once per magic phase only.
Maybe not re-roll the whole casting roll, but re-roll a dice used to cast the spell. It's the "free" dice that makes it so nasty.

Characters-
Move Assasins back to the hero slot.
Agreed.
Witch characters and Assasins be allowed to select gear (other than armor) and gifts with 50 of each, ala vamp heros.
I think I agree. I fear some abusable combinations, though I like the idea. Really both characters just need access to something to make them more survivable, especially with the step up rule in 8th.

Core Infantry-
Price down Corsairs to 8 per model and remove the Sea Serpent banner from the game.
Agreed.
Spearmen- Allow for a HW and shield option with warriors and make them 8 per model.
Agreed.
Harpies- Move to special
I'm not sure I agree. I don't see harpies as particularly abusable, and we're already battling for special choices as things stand.
Witches- Move to core and price at 11 per model. (see cauldron changes to understand justification)
Given the changes to the cauldron I agree.
Crossbowmen- Raise cost one point per model.
Agreed.

Elites-
Cold One Knights- Price them down to 25 per model.
I think they're fine as is, but sure!
Black Guard- Remove unit cap, but raise cost to 15 per model.
Agreed, agreed.
Executioners- Either make them WS5 or drop the points to 11 per model. (see cauldron)
I'm surprised they're not WS5, to be honest. Agreed to your first point.
Shades- Unit size 10-15 and do not allow assasins to be hidden in the unit.
Ehhh, no. Drop unit caps, move shades to rare a la waywatchers, and bump their points a bit.
Chariots- Fine as is.
Yeup.

Rares-
Bolt Throwers- Reduce cost to 75 per model and dump the 2/1 choice.
Sounds like a good number. I keep seeing people suggesting they be dropped to 50 points, which just sounds absurd to me.
War Hydra- Change Handler rules to bring it in line with the main rulebook, dump hatred on the beast, and increase its cost to 200.
Good. Hatred definitely needs to be dropped, though the increase after this drop only needs to be small.
Cauldron- Obviously move the Cauldron to rare, thereby removing its BSB option. Rather than select a buff, it should radiate frenzy to all units within 6" and a 5+ ward to all khainite units in the same radius, including itself. Reclassify it as a 3 wound war machine with T10 and drop the cost to 130. No more KB stubborn witches, no more death blender black guard, and it now has to stick close to the army to do its job.
I love this suggestion for the cauldron, and it brings it in line with other "buff radius" war machines already in the game. Hopefully they'll do something similar with the Dwarf Anvil.

Odin
01-05-2012, 19:34
Repeaters could probably justify a 1pt increase.

Yes. And then another one. And another one. That should just about do.

Phazael
01-05-2012, 20:08
Re Pendant of Kaeleth-
The reason I suggested making it arcane is that the main issue with the item currently is the unkillable Peg Lord of Infinite Cockblocking. I guess making it Enchanted might work (no crown and pendant on the same model), but I think having a lord level wizard with what amounts to a 2+ save should require sacrificing the option for the Dagger or scroll.

re Sacrifical Dagger-
I meant to imply that it would provide no bonus dice, just allow for rerolling one casting attempt per turn, letting you be a little more agressive with your dice pool by using less dice per cast or possibly negating a miscast.

Emissary
01-05-2012, 20:10
Cauldron- Obviously move the Cauldron to rare, thereby removing its BSB option. Rather than select a buff, it should radiate frenzy to all units within 6" and a 5+ ward to all khainite units in the same radius, including itself. Reclassify it as a 3 wound war machine with T10 and drop the cost to 130. No more KB stubborn witches, no more death blender black guard, and it now has to stick close to the army to do its job.
I love this suggestion for the cauldron, and it brings it in line with other "buff radius" war machines already in the game. Hopefully they'll do something similar with the Dwarf Anvil.
I think most of this is fine. The 6" is a bit small for something that can't march in a normally offensive army. The only change I'd have would be to increase the radius.



Spearmen- Allow for a HW and shield option with warriors and make them 8 per model.
Agreed.
While I think this is a good idea, I can't see this happening in the next book because it would cause a remake in the core plastics to be done. Normally this wouldn't be a big issue, but the Dark Elves have one of the largest metal infantry lines of all the books at the moment. Given that they'd need to be redone in plastic along with making whatever new they'd put into the book, I'm not sure there would be space for redoing the dark elf spearmen plastics.

Druchii Monkey
01-05-2012, 20:38
Executioners should be great weapons in initiative order not ASL.
Black Guard should be capped at 25 instead of 20. Allowing slightly larger more playable units but not hordes.

Assassins should remain in the points allocation as they are - outside any existing categories.
Cold Ones to keep stupidity but in addition have frenzy.

One unit of Witch Elves to be core if you have a Death Hag.
One unit of Black Guard to be core if you have Malekith.
One unit of Cold One Knights to be core if you have Malus Darkblade.

Harpies to be improved, and moved to special, but core if you have Beastlord Rakarth in the army.
Improve harpies by giving them 3D6 random movement rule, and -1 to hit. Means no stand and shoot and less vulnerable to shooting.

Hydras to remain exactly as they are including points, or if there is a points increase to gain 3+ regeneration instead of 4+. Hatred to stay with Hydra. They know they are superior too.

Keep unlimited power dice but restrict to Dark Magic - this can work for you as well as against you.
Give Dark Elf casters one extra spell per level as standard.
Make focus familiar part of spell lore, ditch sacrificial dagger and power of darkness.

Merge some magic items - e.g. Armour of Darkness and Ring of Darkness.
Make Warpsword of Khaine something any Dark Elf Dreadlord can have, not just Malus, set at 65 points.
Bring Malekith down in points so he and dragon can feature in lower point games.

Allow Dark Elves to take Ogre Maneaters as mercenaries. :evilgrin:

vorthrax
01-05-2012, 20:55
Executioners- Either make them WS5 or drop the points to 11 per model. (see cauldron)
I'm surprised they're not WS5, to be honest. Agreed to your first point.Executioners are WS5.

Phazael
01-05-2012, 21:03
Got them mixed with Witched I guess heh. But they are still overpriced in their current form.

Emissary, I think the warriors come with hand weapon arms already, unless that was changed in the last round of reboxing. In fact I had to redo a bunch of mine when the last book hit the shelves.

And Druchii Monkey, no one is going to buff what is the single most powerul army in Warhammer. I would personally like to purchase a bag of whatever you are smoking, good sir, unless you are trolling, in which case you kind of jumped the shark a bit.

decker_cky
01-05-2012, 21:10
I think there's 1 hand weapon per 4 model in the warriors box (champ arm). If GW made that change, I think it would more likely come from the release of a new warriors box set, including crossbows, handweapons and spears as options.

The Low King
01-05-2012, 21:44
Hydras to remain exactly as they are including points, or if there is a points increase to gain 3+ regeneration instead of 4+. Hatred to stay with Hydra. They know they are superior too.


Why exactly do you feel their current cost is balanced?

Bikhu
01-05-2012, 22:06
Why exactly do you feel their current cost is balanced?


I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

Lord Dan
01-05-2012, 22:24
I can't tell if he's serious or not. Some of his suggestions are reasonable, some just have to be jokes. 3+ regen on the hydra for the same price?

decker_cky
01-05-2012, 22:49
I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.

Lord Dan
02-05-2012, 00:47
I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.
I wouldn't mind that so long as there was still an upgraded version of the Hydra to choose from.

ExquisiteMonkey
02-05-2012, 01:44
Hydra is good, but its not worth more than 200 pts, especially if you remove hatred from the beast itself AND make it work like the normal monsters & handlers, which is almost guaranteed in the new book.
It's only T5, and once you knock a couple of wounds off its' breath weapon becomes much less effective, and there are lots of flaming attacks being thrown about to negate the regen.....

spartan41
02-05-2012, 04:04
More than anything new models, the more the better but for sure all outdated specials, and DR and some nice heroes.

I think the elites should be as, if not more, killy than the current HE list(obviously increase points).

I really like what they did wih the character choices in the empire book. Give DE a smiliar treatment. Hags can give the unit buffs(blessings from khaine) if she sacrifices her own units troops, the more she kills the better the buff, or the more kills the unit gets the better the buffs. Can be lord level.

dodge saves for assasins, and similiar to a witch hunter it asigns itself a target at the start of the game. Can be upgraded to lord level but can't be general. Lord level has more magic weapon options and crazy stats(assassins only weapons)

across the board I'd like to see dark elves more offensive, more rerolls and attacks, points to match but just more killy without the magic spells(mindrazor) or item buffs they have access to. I think magic should be toned down.
So basically youd pay alot for a smaller amount of T3 low armor save troops but when they hit they hit reliably hard in combat.

Also maybe slavers rule as an army wide rule.

Dreadlordpaul
02-05-2012, 05:15
I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

Jal
02-05-2012, 07:43
Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

Err ---no.

Dark Elves are fine wihtout it - check out the SCGT comp which negates those things...and I still managed 3rd /160

The power in the book comes from many things:

1)Undercosted troops.
2) Bent magic items
3)Internal synergy - for Example 20 Blackguard backed by a Cauldren do not need any other buffs to ruin hobbies. This allows you to foucs your other buffs on ther combats
4) Synergy with the best lore in the game - Shadow
5) Imposing Magic pahses - yes PoD and extra dice are great, but if they're not there then the DE book is still very strong, and still competitive.

Druchii Monkey
02-05-2012, 08:30
I can't tell if he's serious or not. Some of his suggestions are reasonable, some just have to be jokes. 3+ regen on the hydra for the same price?

No jokes in that list. 3+ regen on the Hydra works from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view all armies i've played against throw flaming attacks against a hydra anyway. There are so many flaming options in the game 3+ makes no odds overall.


Why exactly do you feel their current cost is balanced?

There is no disputing the current cost of the hydra is a good deal, however every army including the new ones have good deals. The current points cost encourages DE players to take a nice beastie, and to be honest hydras are overrated. Mine generally dies in 2-3 rounds without accomplishing much at all as a result of flaming attacks, a well placed cannonball or some large beastie that charged and got the better of him. Hydras are overrated and if we are talking about increasing points we should talk about them being more effective.

I've not got a problem with them being up to 250 points if they are worth it. Suggestions:
- Hydras regenerate on a 3+.
- Hydras regenerate on a 4+ and in addition D3 wounds each turn on a 6, to a maximum of their starting value.


I think a toned down 140-150 pt Hydra would be good. 5A, no hatred, and a weaker breath weapon. Make it comparable to a heavy chariot with more resilience. Makes a better support piece that you can afford to take in an army, even it it's not an ideal choice.

What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!


I could be wrong, but I don't think he was being serious. At least, I can't imagine he was serious with most of that post. Casters gaining one extra spell per level and keeping the ability to throw over six dice at a spell along with Power of Darkness and Dark Magic's low casting values is a bit over the top to be taken seriously.

Regarding magic, if you read my post i'm suggesting power of darkness and the sacrificial dagger are removed, in exchange for an extra spell per level for dark elves. Also regarding the number of dice this is overrated game-wise but very correct with the fluff and should stay. Dark Elves do go fairly psychopathic with sorcery but this can backfire badly, also in order to get over 6 dice at all in a phase we're talking a 50/50 chance and then you throw 10 dice at it and either it goes irresistible on you or your opponent gets out that dispel scroll they have been saving.

The bearded one
02-05-2012, 13:11
The last hydra I faced ate my ancient stegadon in close combat, despite me charging him. They don't need to get more powerful unless the cost goes up about 100 points first.

The Low King
02-05-2012, 13:41
No jokes in that list. 3+ regen on the Hydra works from a fluff point of view and from a game point of view all armies i've played against throw flaming attacks against a hydra anyway. There are so many flaming options in the game 3+ makes no odds overall..

So many being......1?

Dwarfs can have more but only on characters (and they usually mean no GWs) or cannons (and Dwarf cannons tend to cost as many points as the hydra)
Lizardmen have a flaming magic weapon...

Everyone else will have one unit with flaming attacks unless they take the lore of Fire or Metal..and you can just dispel them.


There is no disputing the current cost of the hydra is a good deal, however every army including the new ones have good deals. The current points cost encourages DE players to take a nice beastie, and to be honest hydras are overrated. Mine generally dies in 2-3 rounds without accomplishing much at all as a result of flaming attacks, a well placed cannonball or some large beastie that charged and got the better of him. Hydras are overrated and if we are talking about increasing points we should talk about them being more effective.

I've not got a problem with them being up to 250 points if they are worth it. Suggestions:
- Hydras regenerate on a 3+.
- Hydras regenerate on a 4+ and in addition D3 wounds each turn on a 6, to a maximum of their starting value..

My cannons never kill monsters, in fact, in about 10 games against a dark elf list with hydras (where i also had flaming cannons) i have never managed to kill one. Should i therefore conclude that cannons are useless and need a major cost decrease?

A hydra can take on most beasties (except the TK ones with their insane toughness).

Compared to the damage output of other monstres....

The hydra has 7 S5 attacks, a breath weapon, thunderstomp and the handler attacks (6 S3 Ap i believe)...that is far more than any other similarly priced monsters
In terms of survival it has T5, regen, scaley skin 4+.....they are hard to kill



What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!.

Balance =/= fluff. In the fluff Dwarf warriors can take on dragons and space marines can kill thousands of orcs single handedly, how balanced would that be if it was realistic?


Regarding magic, if you read my post i'm suggesting power of darkness and the sacrificial dagger are removed, in exchange for an extra spell per level for dark elves. Also regarding the number of dice this is overrated game-wise but very correct with the fluff and should stay. Dark Elves do go fairly psychopathic with sorcery but this can backfire badly, also in order to get over 6 dice at all in a phase we're talking a 50/50 chance and then you throw 10 dice at it and either it goes irresistible on you or your opponent gets out that dispel scroll they have been saving.

Takes level 2, throws 10 dice at mindrazor, IFs, Miscasts and loses a wound +D6 PD, unit of witch elves you just mindrazored eats the entire enemy army, game won.

BigbyWolf
02-05-2012, 16:15
Have you ever seen how weak dark elves are without all those things

Yes, not much weaker. Without it they are still a hard army.

Druchii Monkey
02-05-2012, 16:35
So many being......1?

Dwarfs can have more but only on characters (and they usually mean no GWs) or cannons (and Dwarf cannons tend to cost as many points as the hydra)
Lizardmen have a flaming magic weapon...

Everyone else will have one unit with flaming attacks unless they take the lore of Fire or Metal..and you can just dispel them.


Flaming banners across all armies? Flaming magic weapons? Flaming cannons? Warpfire throwers? Firebellies? Bretonnian archers? Lore of Fire? Flaming breath weapons in general - doesn't the hydra itself have flaming attacks, i forget? Have i gone beyond the number one yet? Absolutely.



My cannons never kill monsters, in fact, in about 10 games against a dark elf list with hydras (where i also had flaming cannons) i have never managed to kill one. Should i therefore conclude that cannons are useless and need a major cost decrease?

Just out of interest were you actually shooting at them, and were you playing the regen rules correctly?



A hydra can take on most beasties (except the TK ones with their insane toughness).


It's a decent unit but the beast itself suffers from low initiative which means some of the other big beasties get to go first. This can count against it against other beasties and heavy cavalry. Oh yeh, and the TK point you made.



Compared to the damage output of other monstres....


I think you're confusing number of attacks and damage output.



The hydra has 7 S5 attacks, a breath weapon, thunderstomp and the handler attacks (6 S3 Ap i believe)...that is far more than any other similarly priced monsters
In terms of survival it has T5, regen, scaley skin 4+.....they are hard to kill


With the right strategy they are not hard to kill.



Balance =/= fluff. In the fluff Dwarf warriors can take on dragons and space marines can kill thousands of orcs single handedly, how balanced would that be if it was realistic?


Dwarf lords can take on dragons. Space marines can probably kill a dozen or so Orks but can get unlucky. Haven't you read any of the BL books? Thousands is a complete exaggeration. Get your point sort of but your examples are a little limp.



Takes level 2, throws 10 dice at mindrazor, IFs, Miscasts and loses a wound +D6 PD, unit of witch elves you just mindrazored eats the entire enemy army, game won.

There are a lot of ifs and buts in that one. If you get 10 dice and throw them at Mindrazor, yes you get one good spell off. If one successful casting of mind-razor is all that is required to win the game and forget about anything else then either you or your opponent are playing it wrong.

The bearded one
02-05-2012, 16:39
It's still a 5-wound toughness 5, 4+ save, strength 5 , 7 attack hatred monster with breathweapon and 2 handlers pouring out far too many attacks.

Phazael
02-05-2012, 17:41
Obvious troll is obvious.....

vorthrax
02-05-2012, 18:35
My suggested changes for a new Dark Elf Army Book:
- Remove unit cap for Black Guard
- Allow characters to be upgraded to Khainite
- Add other monsters (in addition to Hydras) as options for Beastmasters
- Make spears on Warriors a purchasable option rather than default
- Add some form of monstrous cavalry (someone mentioned Dark Pegasus Knights/Riders - that sounds amazing!)

TsukeFox
02-05-2012, 18:50
Chimera+ beast masters
Sand Serpent Riders-like Dune
Dark magic lore app either works like Death lore app or power of darkness with a chance to wound the caster like ogre magic
Stabby dagger goes bye bye- Pendant stays.

The Low King
02-05-2012, 19:10
Flaming banners across all armies? Flaming magic weapons? Flaming cannons? Warpfire throwers? Firebellies? Bretonnian archers? Lore of Fire? Flaming breath weapons in general - doesn't the hydra itself have flaming attacks, i forget? Have i gone beyond the number one yet? Absolutely..

Did you read my post? i mentioned almost all of them

However:

Brett archers will only wound on 6s and you still have a 4+ save
Flaming breath weapons will only work in close combat and its still pretty tough to kill a hydra with.



Just out of interest were you actually shooting at them, and were you playing the regen rules correctly?.

No, i was completely ignoring them in favour of the cheap spear elves.

Of course i was shooting them, that was the point of the two flaming cannons.

And how would i not play the regen rules correctly? its a 4+ save unless i have fire..not that complicated


It's a decent unit but the beast itself suffers from low initiative which means some of the other big beasties get to go first. This can count against it against other beasties and heavy cavalry. Oh yeh, and the TK point you made..

What has the ability to kill a hydra in one turn (excepting maybe things with breath weapons)? the TK ones wont.


I think you're confusing number of attacks and damage output..

7 S5 attacks is a pretty high damage output (hence why i mentioned the strength)


With the right strategy they are not hard to kill..

But they cost more than their points value to kill. Thus need a price hike.


Dwarf lords can take on dragons. Space marines can probably kill a dozen or so Orks but can get unlucky. Haven't you read any of the BL books? Thousands is a complete exaggeration. Get your point sort of but your examples are a little limp..

Ive read a few. They (and the new Space marine game :D ) refer to space marines as 'gods'. In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels it mentions that entire regiments of Imperial guard will retreat if (chaos) space marines turn up. There are numerous stories of the space marines being far more powerful than they actually are in game.


There are a lot of ifs and buts in that one. If you get 10 dice and throw them at Mindrazor, yes you get one good spell off. If one successful casting of mind-razor is all that is required to win the game and forget about anything else then either you or your opponent are playing it wrong.

Im not saying forget about anything else. But one casting of mindrazor at a key moment can completely change the game, paticularly when combined with hatred.

theunwantedbeing
02-05-2012, 19:49
Im not saying forget about anything else. But one casting of mindrazor at a key moment can completely change the game, paticularly when combined with hatred.

The solution is to remove the ability to throw more than 6 dice at a spell.

decker_cky
02-05-2012, 20:03
What would Hercules have to say about that? The Hydra was awesome. It was epic. Heads kept growing back until he used flaming arrows. Needed an immortal to take it on. How about immunity to Heroic Killing Blow. Now we're talking, and yes, i am serious. Come on - don't turn the hydra into some diminutive little munchkin-beast. It's a mega-beast!

Warhammer is not greek mythology. Notice how hydras don't gain attacks when they make regeneration rolls? Notice how minotaurs don't have human feet? Notice how even in moderate sized armies, there's multiple hydras as opposed to 1 in the universe?

------

The complaints about flaming attacks are funny, because a hydra without regenerate is still worth about 175 pts.

Also....regarding the people listing a hydra using proper monster and handler rules as a future weakening of the hydra - those are actually an advantage akin to gaining a 5+ ward after regeneration.

Druchii Monkey
02-05-2012, 20:47
It's still a 5-wound toughness 5, 4+ save, strength 5 , 7 attack hatred monster with breathweapon and 2 handlers pouring out far too many attacks.

Compared with a 9-wound toughness 4, 2+ save, strength 5, 12 attack set of monsters with 3xD3 impact hits, stomp and 3 riders with 9 further strength 4 attacks at 205 points total?
That's 30 extra points for those 3 Mournfang cavalry and i'll tell you which I reckon is better value.


Warhammer is not greek mythology. Notice how hydras don't gain attacks when they make regeneration rolls? Notice how minotaurs don't have human feet? Notice how even in moderate sized armies, there's multiple hydras as opposed to 1 in the universe?

Warhammer uses inspiration from many sources including Greek Mythology. I don't find the diminutive form you are suggesting particularly inspiring. I am suggesting moving slightly nearer to the Greek mythology (with appropriate points increase) would be a better course. Dark Elves could do with a 250 point mega-beastie and i think the hydra should be it. If not the hydra what would you see taking this slot?


Of course i was shooting them, that was the point of the two flaming cannons.
And how would i not play the regen rules correctly? its a 4+ save unless i have fire..not that complicated

Well, yes but.... as i understand it people get 2 things wrong with regen.

For example it is a rule that if you get one wound with a flaming weapon then for the rest of that phase the hydra does not get regen. This means a unit of archers with a flaming banner that causes a single wound can effectively allow any artillery to fire at the hydra regen free. Some people (myself included) forget about that from time to time. Also with multiple wounds regen is all or nothing - if a cannon wounds and you fail your regen you could be faced with up to 6 wounds on your hydra. Some people (myself included) forget that occasionally and roll a regen save for each of the "multiple wounds" which is as i understand it incorrect. Just wondering how you play it as it makes a difference?

Drasanil
02-05-2012, 22:17
Compared with a 9-wound toughness 4, 2+ save, strength 5, 12 attack set of monsters with 3xD3 impact hits, stomp and 3 riders with 9 further strength 4 attacks at 205 points total?
That's 30 extra points for those 3 Mournfang cavalry and i'll tell you which I reckon is better value.

Wait wait... you're claiming the hydra is just fine, because if given the choice you'd take what is arguably the most broken unit from another book? :shifty:

gdsora
02-05-2012, 23:04
Compared with a 9-wound toughness 4, 2+ save, strength 5, 12 attack set of monsters with 3xD3 impact hits, stomp and 3 riders with 9 further strength 4 attacks at 205 points total?
That's 30 extra points for those 3 Mournfang cavalry and i'll tell you which I reckon is better value.





Most people see Mournfang cavalry as too strong.

That is never a good comparison.

That is powercreep right there

The Low King
02-05-2012, 23:29
3 Mournfangs Vs Hydra:

If Mournfangs get charge, average of 6 impact hits at S5
S5 Vs T5, 3 wounds
6+ scaley skin save, 2.5 wounds
4+ regen save, 1.25 wounds

Beastmasters with the hydra, 6 attacks total (i beleive)
hitting on 3s, 4 hits.
reroll due to hatred, total of 5.3 hits.
wounding on 5s, 1.8 wounds.
3+ save (AP), 0.6 wounds.
6++ save, 0.5 wounds

Normal attacks, same Initiative i beleive.

Hydra, 7 attacks.
Hit on 3s, 4.7 hits.
rerolls due to hatred, 6.2 wounds
Wound on 3s, 4.1 wounds.
4+ armour save, Mournfangs take 2.05 wounds.
6++ save, Mournfangs take 1.7 wounds

Breath weapon:

2D6 hits, average of 7 hits.

Hydra charged then S5, wounding on 3s, 4.7 wounds.
4+ save so another 2.35 wounds

Mournfangs charged then S4, wounding on 4s, 3.5 wounds
3+ save so another 1.2 wounds.


Normal Mournfang attacks, 12 total.
hitting on 4s, 6 hits.
wounding on 4s, 3 wounds.
6+ save, 2.5 wounds.
4+ regen, 1.25 wounds

Ogres attack, 9 attacks.
hitting on 4s, 4.5 hits.
wounding on 5s, 1.5 wounds.
5+ save, 1 wound.
4+ regen, 0.5 wounds.


So, if the mournfangs charged they do a total of 3 wounds and take 3.4 wounds, winning the combat by 1 but losing a mournfang.

If the hydra charged the Mournfangs do a total of 1.75 wounds and take 4.6 wounds, losing the combat by 3.


If you dont give them ironfists for the 2+/6++ save they take even more wounds. (im not sure it was factored into the price or not)

Edit: added the effects of the parry save

Hoshiyami
03-05-2012, 00:08
Just for completeness... ironfists give a 6++ parry save, don't them?

But anyway, I don't think that would change the results significantly and almost everybody agrees they are quite OP...

Lord Dan
03-05-2012, 00:16
Not when they're mounted, no.

Hoshiyami
03-05-2012, 00:24
Wow, then spanish copy of their army book is seriously flawed... it says (in spanish) 'even when they're mounted'... :eek:

Lord Dan
03-05-2012, 00:31
Just checked the ogre book in english, and I stand corrected!

The Low King
03-05-2012, 00:33
really? in that case the Mournfang cav take slightly less wounds (they wont get parry vs the breath attack anyway)

will edit it in

Shadowsinner
03-05-2012, 02:07
my 2 cents...

spears 7 pts which includes all standard gear and shield. may swap spear for xbow for 3 pts per model. unit may take magic banner
corsairs 9 pts, with same rules OR 10 pts if they get a 4+ save at all times
riders 15 per model
harpies same with SoM upgrade options

assassins same with revised temple list

witches 11 per model
executioners 11 per model and 4+ save
black guard 12 per model. While theyre a solid elite fighting unit, models are still very easy to kill at t3 with a 5 save.
shades 17 with xbow and duel weapons as base cost. no other upgrades besides champion will be available
cold ones 24 each
chariot same

bolt throwers should be 75- 80 points
hydra 220- 250... i once stated before handlers get 2attacks each, hydra gets a standard s4 -2 save breath. has 5 attacks, and gains one for every wound dealt to it. with a 4 save and regen. this isnt OTT for 250 points
cauldron is chariot war machine at about 250ish?

rules for cauldron are thus. all khainite units get a 6 ward save standard. units with 6 of on or more cauldrons get a 6 ward (5 for khainite units). at the beginning of the friendly magic phase the cauldron chooses a single unit in 24 inches and may give them one ability as an augment, extra attacks, killing blow, or stubborn

m1acca1551
03-05-2012, 03:11
Black guard just need a ward save and there fine, maybe a slight points adjustment as we will lose alot of the crazy cauldren shenanigens.

Perhaps a take off from storm of chaos would be nice in allowing a player to choose a cult to follow either khainite or cult of pleasure? Make the army alot more in depth and divers.

Lord Dan
03-05-2012, 04:53
my 2 cents...

spears 7 pts which includes all standard gear and shield. may swap spear for xbow for 3 pts per model. unit may take magic banner
corsairs 9 pts, with same rules OR 10 pts if they get a 4+ save at all times
riders 15 per model
harpies same with SoM upgrade options

assassins same with revised temple list

witches 11 per model
executioners 11 per model and 4+ save
black guard 12 per model. While theyre a solid elite fighting unit, models are still very easy to kill at t3 with a 5 save.
shades 17 with xbow and duel weapons as base cost. no other upgrades besides champion will be available
cold ones 24 each
chariot same

bolt throwers should be 75- 80 points
hydra 220- 250... i once stated before handlers get 2attacks each, hydra gets a standard s4 -2 save breath. has 5 attacks, and gains one for every wound dealt to it. with a 4 save and regen. this isnt OTT for 250 points
cauldron is chariot war machine at about 250ish?

rules for cauldron are thus. all khainite units get a 6 ward save standard. units with 6 of on or more cauldrons get a 6 ward (5 for khainite units). at the beginning of the friendly magic phase the cauldron chooses a single unit in 24 inches and may give them one ability as an augment, extra attacks, killing blow, or stubborn
Just a few observations:
-Your point costs for spearmen/crossbows are identical to what they are currently, except that you have shields come standard.
-I've seen lots of people claim corsairs need a drop in points, so I don't take any particular argument with you point. I just don't think they need it.
-Black guard don't need a drop in points, and given that reducing them to 12 points would put them only a point above greatswords, I just don't see it happening. They're immune to psych, have a great statline, and are stubborn. Sure, they're T3 and die in droves, but that's what they do (Go talk to a HE player paying 15 points per model for pretty much the same thing). The solution isn't to make them cheaper, but to be able to take them in larger blocks, so I feel the unit cap just needs to be dropped.



Black guard just need a ward save and there fine, maybe a slight points adjustment as we will lose alot of the crazy cauldren shenanigens.

Perhaps a take off from storm of chaos would be nice in allowing a player to choose a cult to follow either khainite or cult of pleasure? Make the army alot more in depth and divers.
Again, I take issue here. If the only weakness of the Black Guard is that they die to shooting, that doesn't mean they need a ward save. They're not supposed to be unkillable, we just need to be able to take them in larger blocks.

the_picto
03-05-2012, 09:43
I'd move witch elves to core for khainite themed goodness.
Move dark riders and harpies to special.
Give executioners frenzy.
Up blackgurad to 15pts but remove the unit cap.
Take hatred off the hydra and drop the beastmasters to 1 attack plus an extra hand weapon.

Urgat
03-05-2012, 10:14
Notice how minotaurs don't have human feet?

Just to nitpick, but they used to, and even now, they're more like feet with really big toenails rather than hooves, if you check their anatomy. They're clearly walking on their heels.

Kurnous the Hunter
03-05-2012, 11:11
I"ll repost what I posted in the High Elf thread....

Okay, I know I'm new here but I was much more active back in the GW website days, had an internet article or two published etc (You might find The Hooves of Ellyrion). In early 2002 I started writing some Advanced Warhammer Rules (AWR) which was inspired in part by the new edition, Mordheim, the computer games and creating a more 'fluffy' game. I might add that these rules had fighting in multiple ranks (10 years ahead of it's time!) I might post them up sometime. However my time as a student came to an end and as my life got busier, I abandoned the project.

At the time I felt that Elves were not very fluffy, toyed with the idea of 2 attacks - but that was way overpowered particularly with no 'step up'.

I had a few versions of Elves with a special rule 'Elven Agility'

In battle, elves use their natural speed, grace and reflexes to good effect. On the attack they lash out with blows of blinding speed, often far too quick for the enemy to follow. Attacking an elf is no easy matter either, their keen senses and awesome reflexes mean that they meet blows with ease, deftly parrying or turning aside before the blow strikes. With bows, elves are very quick to draw and notch their arrows with great deftness they aim and fire, often twice as fast as archers of lesser races.

All versions had Elves shooting twice if standing still (no ranked fire) - this was inspired by Shadow of the Horned Rat - where shooting was initiative based.

I Had 3 versions of how it would effect combat.
1. Re-roll misses in Combat, 6+ Dodge (Ward) save
2. Re-roll misses in Combat, -1 to hit (Combat and shooting)
3. +1 to hit in combat, -1 to hit (Combat and shooting)

Option Number 3 minimized dice rolling/ re-rolling but felt too powerful, whilst Option 1 felt balanced but

With the change in how initiative works and step up, I believe any of the 3 above would work with the addition of new options
4. ASF, 6+ward (can be combined with hand weapon and shield ward)
5. ASF, -1 to hit.

The question would be which of the 5 options would be most balanced.

There are two main issues though
a. How would re-roll hits (plain or ASF) fit in with the hatred mechanic of HE vs DE.
b. How to differentiate HE vs DE? My idea here would be HE count as +1 Initiative when fighting DE.

Please note that in my experimental rules I did not have Citizen Levy/Martial Prowess extra ranks.

Now I guess I'll wait to hear some feedback regarding what fellow WHFB players would think is balanced. I lean toward Option 3 - but worry that it would make the characters to effective.

I also had another rule, again for all Elves regarding Magic
Magical Talent
Elves as a race are blessed with vast magical talent. They can more keenly see the winds of magic, and understand its intricacies better. Magical power more naturally flow to them as though they are conducts of power. Also the long lives of the elves means they have more time to practice, and study magic as an art. This means that elves are great spell-casters; far better then those of lesser races.

All elves may re-roll any results of 1 on any power or dispel dice as well as spell effects. The second roll of a re-roll counts and no further re-rolls allowed unless any other ability states that it can.

This was at the time when miscasts were double ones. I always thought that Elves should be much more reliable with their magic and cast the same spells as non-elves in a superior manner. (Slann would get an even better version of course!)

Duke Ramulots
03-05-2012, 12:08
My wishlist for darkelves would be a re-write from scratch and not a patch job done to the current book.

DaemonReign
03-05-2012, 12:39
My wishlist for darkelves would be a re-write from scratch and not a patch job done to the current book.

Judging by the army books of 8th Ed so far I don't think you'll be satisfied on that one. :) Then again, they might surprice us!

Duke Ramulots
03-05-2012, 12:44
Judging by the army books of 8th Ed so far I don't think you'll be satisfied on that one. :) Then again, they might surprice us!

So far they havnt really dealt with an army as broken as Dark Elves though. The armies they've done only needed a minor patch job.

tmarichards
03-05-2012, 12:57
Dark Elves don't really need a major re-write, just a handful of tweaks to their magic, magic items and Cauldron as well as some points increases across the board.

In the UK at least, as soon as you stop the Stubborn/Pendant Dreadlord and cap them at 6 dice per spell, they become a very manageable army- still very good, but not Skaven/Lizardmen level of broken. This year's SCGT (very light comp event) is the first time in a while that someone other than Ben Curry has done really well with Dark Elves (Amit Hindocha came third).

sulla
04-05-2012, 19:42
The last hydra I faced ate my ancient stegadon in close combat, despite me charging him. They don't need to get more powerful unless the cost goes up about 100 points first.I'd be quite happy with a more powerful hydra in the 300-350pts range.

Other than the price of the hydra (which, to be honest, is nowhere near as underpriced as it was in 7th) I think most of the problems with DE overpower come from the magic rules, armybook magic items and access to shadow lore. These all combine to make the army far better than it is without them.

There are quite a few problems if you just remove these though, you have an army of predominantly s3 t3 5+ save troops with no realistic options for infantry heroes. That will need to change or they you will never see anything but sorceresses and possibly a cauldron BSB (assuming they remain similar to their current rules)...

I'm quite interested to see what they do with the elven books they release in this edition. All the elven books traditionally relied on disrupters and hard hitting, fragile units that broke their enemy on the charge. With both taking a big knock in this edition, Elves in general might need a rethink for the future. How do GW want to define how an even army fights under the 8th edition rules where Initiative only really matters once a unit loses enough men that they start to lose attacks back, and no matter what happens, you will take return casualties. Combat is not really a place for a warhammer elf anymore...

The bearded one
04-05-2012, 19:54
Other than the price of the hydra (which, to be honest, is nowhere near as underpriced as it was in 7th)

tell that to the unit of black orcs I saw evaporate today. Not just destroyed, evaporated! One round there were about 25-30 fighting a pendantlord when a hydra joined in, 3 combatrounds later the last 4 survivors were running for the hills!


Combat is not really a place for a warhammer elf anymore...

Pha, it's not supposed to be! Oh, back in my day * grumble * we gave them elgi a good ribbin' in the war of vengeance! Back to the kitchen, gardening, playing the harp and writing poetry where they belong I tell ya!

sulla
05-05-2012, 04:06
tell that to the unit of black orcs I saw evaporate today. Not just destroyed, evaporated! One round there were about 25-30 fighting a pendantlord when a hydra joined in, 3 combatrounds later the last 4 survivors were running for the hills!

More of a complaint on the pendantlord really though, isn't it? The DE player could have quite happily left the pendantlord there and tied that unit up for the entire game for a nice points advantage to the rest of his army.

That said, Orcs are a fairly good opponent for hydras; no really accurate artillery except doom divers, who are probably better off shooting down harpies, not a lot of flaming attacks, and their I value is low enough the hydra gets to breathe before it gets a couple of wounds knocked off it by incoming attacks. Many armies have an easier time knocking off a few wounds and taking the s5 breath weapon out of the equation at least.

shelfunit.
05-05-2012, 08:15
Honestly the majority of infantry in the new book need a pretty decent points rise.

Basic Warriors (hand weapon + light armour) 8pts, shields +1pt, spears +1pt
Repeater x-bows: 12pts
Corsairs: 11pts
Witch Elves: 12pts
Shades: 15pts (unit size cap of 10, no limit on the number of units)
Executioners: 14pts (down one from original revision on reflection)
Black Guard: 15pts
Hydra: 225pts

Anyone complaining about this, just try out a few games with it first.

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 08:23
Honestly the majority of infantry in the new book need a pretty decent points rise.

Basic Warriors (hand weapon + light armour) 8pts, shields +1pt, spears +1pt
Repeater x-bows: 12pts
Corsairs: 11pts
Witch Elves: 12pts
Shades: 15pts (unit size cap of 10, no limit on the number of units)
Executioners: 15pts
Black Guard: 15pts
Hydra: 225pts

Anyone complaining about this, just try out a few games with it first.

What the hell why do executioners crossbowmen and spearmen need a points rise

shelfunit.
05-05-2012, 08:28
What the hell why do executioners crossbowmen and spearmen need a points rise

Because they are horrifcally under costed currently.

Nagash333
05-05-2012, 08:47
Honestly the majority of infantry in the new book need a pretty decent points rise.

Basic Warriors (hand weapon + light armour) 8pts, shields +1pt, spears +1pt
Repeater x-bows: 12pts
Corsairs: 11pts
Witch Elves: 12pts
Shades: 15pts (unit size cap of 10, no limit on the number of units)
Executioners: 14pts (down one from original revision on reflection)
Black Guard: 15pts
Hydra: 225pts

Anyone complaining about this, just try out a few games with it first.

I think your going a little over the top. You could apply this logic through any army book e.g. unit X is very good therefore we should increase its points. What were forgetting is that they are still elves (with the obvious exception of the Hydra!) with t3 and rubbish, if any, armour. Any magic missiles, shooting etc. rips them apart. At 15pts a model its easy to get those points from shooting and magic.

Spearelves are a little under costed certainly, but not to the extent you suggest. A 1 - 2 pt rise at most. The units individually are not really under costed, its when Mindrazor is cast on Corsairs with the Cauldrons' support then it becomes an issue, otherwise your just left with a 5+ armour save elf with two str 3 attacks, hardly game breaking.

Point taken on the Hyrda, it is under costed, needs to be 200 pts in imho

Many thanks

Nagash333

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 08:48
3
Because they are horrifcally under costed currently.

How the hell are they. Spearmen and executioners are meh and crossbows are barely ok. I get the impression you really hate the dark elves as you clearly want them put on the same level as TK and WE which is weak.

BigbyWolf
05-05-2012, 09:18
3

How the hell are they. Spearmen and executioners are meh and crossbows are barely ok. I get the impression you really hate the dark elves as you clearly want them put on the same level as TK and WE which is weak.

Spearmen may be "meh", but they are cheap "meh", and should have a points increase to bring them in line with other books.

Also, it's worth noting that just because someone disagrees with you, it does not mean that they hate the army in question.

Darnok
05-05-2012, 10:06
How the hell are they. Spearmen and executioners are meh and crossbows are barely ok. I get the impression you really hate the dark elves as you clearly want them put on the same level as TK and WE which is weak.

How you can think that Executioners are "meh" is beyond me, some goes for Crossbowmen.

And if you think somebody "hates" your army simply by disagreeing with you, you might really want to rethink your view of others. By the way: the world is not black and white, there is lots of room between the top (where DE currently comfortably sit) and the lower end of the line (WE and possibly TK). There is a whole spectrum between them, just saying...

Mati
05-05-2012, 10:51
I said to myself : I don't buy any DE models until i see new ones cause they will blow my mind for sure. I would love to see plastic, less static Black Guards and Executoniers, same goes for Witches.

shelfunit.
05-05-2012, 11:41
3

How the hell are they. Spearmen and executioners are meh and crossbows are barely ok. I get the impression you really hate the dark elves as you clearly want them put on the same level as TK and WE which is weak.

You apparently have never played against DEs with anything other than DEs. Take the Empire spearman for example. For the same (current) points cost you (DEs) have the same equipment, +1M, +1WS, +1BS, +2I, +1Ld and you get to reroll all attacks in every combat phase. If you claim the detachment rules are worth anything like this I fear you will be in for a shock when the new DE book comes out. At best (for DE players) DE spearmen should be 8pts with the same equipment & rules. If you want to think of it another way, strip the DE warrior of his equipment - assuming spear and Light armour are worth a point each this makes a naked DE warrior 4pts - for that stat line and re-rolling attacks every round - is this acceptable? Take away eternal hatred and you have the basic stat line of the DE for about 2pts. As for "hating" dark elves, firstly I have a DE army (rarely used, but I still have one) and would rather win because of good play and tactics than because it is better and cheaper at everything than my opponent, secondly - grow up.

orlanth1000
05-05-2012, 13:40
^ This.

Running into a line of DE Xbows can be sobering, especially with eternal hatred.

This thread is rapidly turning into troll feeding time at the zoo.

I love my Dark Elves, but most of us realize the next book won't be so kind to us.

Darnok
05-05-2012, 14:21
I love my Dark Elves, but most of us realize the next book won't be so kind to us.

Well, the pendulum already was at both extremes for DE - on the weak side during 6th, on the strong side during 7th until now. I for one hope for a balanced book, like the ones for 8th edition so far. It will even the power curve, and DE players won't get accused of cheesing their way to the top any more. Win-win for everybody in my opinion.

Nagash333
05-05-2012, 17:37
Some over emotive, bordering on aggressive responses from some of our community e.g telling someone they need to grow up.

Your comparison troop for troop with empire is unfair. In the context of an army with steam tanks and powerful war machines, not to mention the detachment rule dark elf warriors should only be a small amount more. Also your evaluation is inaccurate, hatred lasts for one round of combat

Tupinamba
05-05-2012, 17:45
You apparently have never played against DEs with anything other than DEs. Take the Empire spearman for example. For the same (current) points cost you (DEs) have the same equipment, +1M, +1WS, +1BS, +2I, +1Ld and you get to reroll all attacks in every combat phase. If you claim the detachment rules are worth anything like this I fear you will be in for a shock when the new DE book comes out. At best (for DE players) DE spearmen should be 8pts with the same equipment & rules. If you want to think of it another way, strip the DE warrior of his equipment - assuming spear and Light armour are worth a point each this makes a naked DE warrior 4pts - for that stat line and re-rolling attacks every round - is this acceptable? Take away eternal hatred and you have the basic stat line of the DE for about 2pts. As for "hating" dark elves, firstly I have a DE army (rarely used, but I still have one) and would rather win because of good play and tactics than because it is better and cheaper at everything than my opponent, secondly - grow up.

Hatred is rerolling only the FIRST round though, not every round. I think you may be confusing them with HE. So it is detachment versus one round of S3 rerolls, which is not at all that onesided. Not to speak of armywide synergies, which both sides have, but Empire has cheap access to ALL magic lores, template warmachines etc.

Dark Elves, like many other armies by the way, have some really broken combos, but the core choices? If you build any DE core unit and mathhammer the same ammount of points of other core units against it, DE loose. Clanrats, Saurus, Marauders, Chaos Warriors, Dwarfs, Orcs, HE etc.

Crossbowmen at 12? They are two S3 relatively short range shots effectively hitting as BS3. For 12 points, you get 2 Bretonia Peasant bow, dishing out the same ammount of hits, but with longer range, double the wounds, stakes and cheap access to fire. Again, just mathhammer a unit of DE rxb in a shooting duel againts the same ammount of points of other shooters (skinks, quarellers etc.) and they donīt come out as OP at all. And OK, they are better in close combat than most shooters (but not all). The same way that dwarfen warmachines are better in close combat then elven ones. Thatīs not exactly their role though.

Even the elites bythemselves are far from that OTT. Mathhammer Black Guard against Swordmasters and Chosen, for example. Of course they are excellent. As are other elites. Executioners at 15 points!?? At the current price they have trouble enough against non specific targets (heavy cav, expensive heavy inf) of the same ammount of points. ASL T3 5+ save guys with one attack at the price of more than 3 rats?

Yes, there are ways of overcoming it with support and the "soft" stats have their own value too, but Iīd like to see a demonstration showing why DE basic troops are soo cheap, if on their own they pretty much loose against anything.

If itīs the excessive synergies that unbalances Dark Elves, thatīs what has to be fixed, particularly as otherwise youīd be penalizing players who donīt even do the broken combos (like myself). Fix the COB, magic and OP items. And do it simultaneously with OP things in Skaven, Lizardmen etc. too.

Edit: nijad

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 17:49
I will admit this im a power gamer but im not a full on one, I do do fluffy lists however i simply cannot stand when my armies get nerfed into oblivion and i know my 2 main armies are gonna (WoC and DE). Also considering 80% of my meta is power gamers i have no choice but to be one.

The bearded one
05-05-2012, 17:55
I think issues with dark elves stem mostly from magic and magic items, not all that much from the units themselves. Spearelves are a tad cheap, but 1 point up and it's almost a non-issue. Repeater crossbows are really good though, as they can pump out soooo many shots with quite a good ballistic skill and armourpiercing, but once again, maybe one point up and it's a non-issue. Black guard haven't troubled me since 7th edition, and black guard are still a fragile ASL unit, unlike certain great weapon wielding elves.. Sure, they can have an ASF banner on the BSB with them, but guess what happens to t3 BSBs with magic banners? :p It is dark elf synergy and magic creating issues. The cauldron is seriously cheap, can be the BSB (and is a large target at the same time to boot for 18" range!) and has superawesome buffs, it can make almost any unit in that book ridiculous.

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 18:00
I think issues with dark elves stem mostly from magic and magic items, not all that much from the units themselves. Spearelves are a tad cheap, but 1 point up and it's almost a non-issue. Repeater crossbows are really good though, as they can pump out soooo many shots with quite a good ballistic skill and armourpiercing, but once again, maybe one point up and it's a non-issue. Black guard haven't troubled me since 7th edition, and black guard are still a fragile ASL unit, unlike certain great weapon wielding elves.. Sure, they can have an ASF banner on the BSB with them, but guess what happens to t3 BSBs with magic banners? :p It is dark elf synergy and magic creating issues. The cauldron is seriously cheap, can be the BSB (and is a large target at the same time to boot for 18" range!) and has superawesome buffs, it can make almost any unit in that book ridiculous.
I agree with the whole of this post

BigbyWolf
05-05-2012, 18:23
i simply cannot stand when my armies get nerfed into oblivion and i know my 2 main armies are gonna (WoC and DE).

That's surprising, given that neither rumour thread has said anything of the sort.

shelfunit.
05-05-2012, 19:07
Some over emotive, bordering on aggressive responses from some of our community e.g telling someone they need to grow up.

Not quite as aggressive as a post saying I clearly "hated Dark Elves", although I agree his post was rather emotive.


Your comparison troop for troop with empire is unfair. In the context of an army with steam tanks and powerful war machines, not to mention the detachment rule

DE's have Hydra's, they are far better than steam tanks. They also have RBT's also pretty good artillery, but rarely seen due to the hydra being far better.


dark elf warriors should only be a small amount more. Also your evaluation is inaccurate, hatred lasts for one round of combat


Hatred is rerolling only the FIRST round though, not every round. I think you may be confusing them with HE. So it is detachment versus one round of S3 rerolls, which is not at all that onesided.

Completly mis-read the eternal hatred rules (for a long time) - appologies there.



Not to speak of armywide synergies, which both sides have, but Empire has cheap access to ALL magic lores, template warmachines etc.

Access to, yes, but all armies have access to all lores (except dwarfs) via various magic items. Having access to all lores & templates should only add to the cost of the particular items which deal out this damage, not reduce their targets points values.


Dark Elves, like many other armies by the way, have some really broken combos, but the core choices? If you build any DE core unit and mathhammer the same ammount of points of other core units against it, DE loose. Clanrats, Saurus, Marauders, Chaos Warriors, Dwarfs, Orcs, HE etc.

You seem to have missed how math hammer works, as none of the above is accurate.


Crossbowmen at 12? They are two S3 relatively short range shots effectively hitting as BS3. For 12 points, you get 2 Bretonia Peasant bow, dishing out the same ammount of hits, but with longer range, double the wounds, stakes and cheap access to fire. Again, just mathhammer a unit of DE rxb in a shooting duel againts the same ammount of points of other shooters (skinks, quarellers etc.) and they donīt come out as OP at all. And OK, they are better in close combat than most shooters (but not all). The same way that dwarfen warmachines are better in close combat then elven ones. Thatīs not exactly their role though.

And if those skinks and brett peasents ever get into combat they will be minced in a single turn - the DE crossbows will likely be striking first with re-rolls to hit - an event which is far more likely (missiile troops in CC) in the current edition of warhammer.


Even the elites bythemselves are far from that OTT. Mathhammer Black Guard against Swordmasters and Chosen, for example. Of course they are excellent. As are other elites. Executioners at 15 points!?? At the current price they have trouble enough against non specific targets (heavy cav, expensive heavy inf) of the same ammount of points. ASL T3 5+ save guys with one attack at the price of more than 3 rats?

Had you bothered to read my post prior to posting yourself you would have noticed I reduced exceutioners to 14pts, on reflection that seemed fairer. Yes - they are as good as (almost) 3 rats, easily.


Yes, there are ways of overcoming it with support and the "soft" stats have their own value too, but Iīd like to see a demonstration showing why DE basic troops are soo cheap, if on their own they pretty much loose against anything.

Again, you seem to have never observed them in combat. They are so cheap that they heavily outnumber any troops with equivalent stats (other armies elites) and are far superior to troops of equivalent points value, against whom the DE's have far superior stats.



If itīs the excessive synergies that unbalances Dark Elves, thatīs what has to be fixed, particularly as otherwise youīd be penalizing players who donīt even do the broken combos (like myself). Fix the COB, magic and OP items. And do it simultaneously with OP things in Skaven, Lizardmen etc. too.

Edit: nijad

The sad thing is DEs suffer from every for of synergy. They have great magic, great magic items, great stats and low points values - combined with a huge variety of troop choices that can (and do) excel in every phase o the game.

To sum up - DE do not require nerfing, just bringing into line with the armies they fight against. I have no wish for DE's to go back to their 6th ed pre-fix misery.

spartan41
06-05-2012, 03:42
I think your going a little over the top. You could apply this logic through any army book e.g. unit X is very good therefore we should increase its points. What were forgetting is that they are still elves (with the obvious exception of the Hydra!) with t3 and rubbish, if any, armour. Any magic missiles, shooting etc. rips them apart. At 15pts a model its easy to get those points from shooting and magic.

Spearelves are a little under costed certainly, but not to the extent you suggest. A 1 - 2 pt rise at most. The units individually are not really under costed, its when Mindrazor is cast on Corsairs with the Cauldrons' support then it becomes an issue, otherwise your just left with a 5+ armour save elf with two str 3 attacks, hardly game breaking.

Point taken on the Hyrda, it is under costed, needs to be 200 pts in imho

Many thanks

Nagash333

AMEN..
lol at Executioners being 14pts.

Uberskooper
06-05-2012, 04:11
Nerd fight about the cost of Dark Elf infantry.

I enjoy reading these arguments because of how people reach totally opposite conclusions based on what comparisons they use. I play Dark Elves and I never compare them with Empire infantry. In fact, I think that Dark Elves are well suited for butchering light infantry, like the Empire state troops. I also don't see light infantry (state troops, goblins, etc.) as combat troops. They have numbers and ranks. If they happen to kill anything it's just a bonus on top of holding up the enemy for something better.

The comparisons that I usually make are to things like High Elf elites, most Chaos Warriors infantry, Saurus, Orcs, and pretty much anything else with a bit of toughness or armor. In my experience, Dark Elf infantry compare pretty unfavorably to all of these and I would gladly trade my own regiments for them.

A while back, I described two consecutive games I played against Lizardmen. In both of these games, I charged a horde of 40 Saurus with full strength regiments of 20 Black Guard, 40 Spearmen, and 20 Crossbows in the side. Because of their toughness and armor, many of my attacks bounced off and the Saurus proceeded to kill everything I had in two rounds of combat. I was pretty frustrated. I outmaneuvered my foe with more bodies and more points in the combat, yet I still lost. It seems like the Saurus can just hurf durf forward, get into any kind of position they want, and they will still win against my infantry. They cost 12 points and I would gladly trade my infantry for them.

For those of you folks who think that Dark Elf infantry are too cheap I would encourage you to switch armies with your buddy and try to play a game with them. I think you will find that Dark Elves have a lot of mean tricks and broken choices, but their basic infantry without any buffs (yes, even the Black Guard) are in my opinion pretty meh against many of the stuff out there. Just as a caveat, I never field the Hydra for personal reasons. So if you want to take up my challenge, play against Chaos Warriors or Lizardmen and don't field the Hydra.

Duke Ramulots
06-05-2012, 06:34
40 saurus warriors could not kill 80 models in two rounds of combat unless they ran them down after the second round, and even then they couldnt catch all three units fleeing in oposite directions.

Uberskooper
06-05-2012, 07:10
40 saurus warriors could not kill 80 models in two rounds of combat unless they ran them down after the second round, and even then they couldnt catch all three units fleeing in oposite directions.

I don't remember the exact numbers of fights in both games, but all three of my units were well under fighting strength. I think they chased down the warriors and all (or nearly all the Black Guard were dead). The crossbows fared the best, since they were on the flank (and ironically with a 5+ and parry they are the most durable Dark Elf infantry). They lost about 5 models out of 20 but still fled into the path of the enemy line to be caught later. Again my point is that I outflanked the enemy with more bodies and points yet still lost fairly consistently. Maybe I just got unlucky both times, but it seems to me that there are enough things in the game that Dark Elf infantry will struggle against despite their numerous attacks.

Druchii Monkey
06-05-2012, 10:37
... black guard are still a fragile ASL unit, unlike certain great weapon wielding elves..

You mean Executioners right? Black Guard have halberds don't they?

Regarding DE spears at 6 points this should stay. For 6pts with WS4 and hatred you stand a very good chance of hitting but that's about it. At S3 your chance of wounding against many of your opponents is not great. Also at 6 points you've got T3 and light armour so these troops will fall reasonably easily when hit back. A low points cost is a good idea to allow DE players to bulk up big units of DE warriors - which is what is needed for these units to be viable.

Tupinamba
06-05-2012, 11:41
You seem to have missed how math hammer works, as none of the above is accurate.


Again, you seem to have never observed them in combat. They are so cheap that they heavily outnumber any troops with equivalent stats (other armies elites) and are far superior to troops of equivalent points value, against whom the DE's have far superior stats.


To sum up - DE do not require nerfing, just bringing into line with the armies they fight against. I have no wish for DE's to go back to their 6th ed pre-fix misery.

Well, in my personal experience, DE units bythemselves certainly do not simply run over equal opposition in points. After your post, I got intrigued to actually do some explicit mathhammer on DE Spears in a typical formation:

Ok, letīs do the comparison. Iīll use some examples that I happen to know the exact points costs and that I think should be reasonably representative.

First, against marauders.
30 Dark Elf Warriors with shields and FC: 225
36 Marauders, GW, mark of Khorne, FC: 226
Marauders attacking in horde against DE 5x6

1. Round:
DE: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds
Marauders: 29 attacks, 14,5 hits, 12 wounds
18 remaining DE, 30 remaining Marauders
Marauders have charge, win by 7, no DE steadfast

2. Round (if there were one...)
DE: 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds
Marauders: 29 attacks, 14,5 hits, 12 wounds
6 remaining DE, 26 remaining Marauders
Marauders win by 10, no steadfast.

Against Brettonian Peasants:
30 Dark Elf Warriors with shields and FC: 225
40 Peasants, FC: 227

Again, Peasants attacking in horde against DE in 5x6
1. Round:
DE: 16 attacks, 15 hits, 7,5 wounds, 6 kills
Peasants: 22 attacks, 11 hits, 7,3 wounds, 6,4 kills
24 DE remaining, 34 Peasants remaining
DE have 1 more rank, Peasants have charge. Draw.
2. Round:
DE: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4kills
Peasants: 22 attacks, 11 hits, 7,3 wounds, 6,4 kills
18 DE remaining, 30 Peasants remaining
Equal ranks, DE loose by 2, no steadfast.
3. Round:
DE: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4kills
Peasants: 22 attacks, 11 hits, 7,3 wounds, 6,4 kills
12 DE remaining, 26 Peasants remaining
DE have 1 less ranks, loose by 3 no steadfast.

So, in both cases of enemy core, on their own DE loose badly against the same amount of points of troops. And against rats and sauros itīs in no way better.
Strenght and toughness are way more important stats than WS and I. That has its value too, but one on one, troops with more S/T and cheaper will always beat the expensive high WS/I units.
Having the DE formation wider to maximize attacks would not help, as itīd increase enemy attacks even more, while loosing their ranks.

And lastly, as a counter example, against High Elves.
30 Dark Elf Warriors with shields and FC: 225
22 High Elf Spearmen, FC: 223

Dark Elves attacking in 6x5 formation against HE in 5 x 4:
1. Round:
HE: ASF, 21 attacks, 16 hits (after reroll), 8 wounds, 5,33 kills
DE: 13 attacks, 9,5 hits (after reroll), 4,75 wounds, 3,16 kills
19 remaining HE, 25 remaining DE
Taking 5 against 3 kills, DE have 1 more rank and charge and itīs a draw.
2. Round:
HE: 20 attacks, 15 hits, 7,5 wounds, 5 kills
DE: 19 attacks, 14,5 hits, 7,5 wounds, 5 kills
14 remaining HE, 20 remaining DE
DE have 1 more rank and win by 1, HE have valour of ages and reroll break test
3. Round:
HE: 15 attacks, 11,25 hits, 5,62 wounds, 3,75 kills
DE: 17 attacks, 12,25 hits, 6,1 wounds, 4 kills
10 remaining HE, 16 remaining DE

So, in this fight, DE win the grinding, but only because against specifically against HE their hatred is every round. Even so, itīs a pretty balanced thing.

With just 1 points increase for DE spears:

30 Warriors, shield, FC: 255
26 HE Spears, FC: 254
Again, DE attacking in 6x5 and HE defending in 5x5
1. Round:
HE: ASF, 21 attacks, 16 hits (after reroll), 8 wounds, 5,33 kills
DE: 13 attacks, 9,5 hits (after reroll), 4,75 wounds, 3,16 kills
23 remaining HE, 25 remaining DE
Equal ranks, DE charge, DE loose by one.
2. Round:
HE: ASF, 21 attacks, 16 hits (after reroll), 8 wounds, 5,33 kills
DE: DE: 19 attacks, 14,5 hits, 7,5 wounds, 5 kills
DE have 1 less rank, loose by one.
18 HE remaining, 20 DE remaining
3. Round:
HE: 19 attacks, 14,5 hits, 7,5 wounds, 5 kills
DE: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 kills
14 HE remaining, 15 DE remaining
DE loose by 2
4. Round:
HE: 15 attacks, , 11,25 hits, 5,62 wounds, 3,75 kills
DE: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 4,5 wounds, 3 kills
11 HE remaining, 11 DE remaining
DE loose by 2.

So this time DE loose the grinding. But they also lost each round, without rerolling valour of ages. And again, their hatred rerolls every round are only against HE themselves. Against all other races, HE spears would fare better.

So, even just one point increase would make them clearly overcosted in comparison with HE spears, which are hardly OP themselves.
Of course, inverting the situation, with HEs attacking and DE spears defending would favour DE. But the results would stay similar. At the current points cost, with hatred rerolls every round, DE win. With points increase, they loose. While the special rule continues applying only against HE.

If people will argue that I shouldnīt compare them so directly, because of mindrazor and COB etc., thatīs my whole point, that the excessive synergies have to be adressed, not the core units (who, as demonstrated, loose badly on their own against tons of enemy basic stuff).

Finally, Iīm a little lazy to do the mathhammer for DE specials here now, but could post a BG x Chosen or even Warriors comparison and am pretty sure the results wouldnīt be very impressive either.

GodlessM
06-05-2012, 12:23
I love this thread; it's so easy to tell who plays Dark Elves and who plays against them a lot.

The Low King
06-05-2012, 12:36
Tupinamba> comparing a unit in horde formation vs a unit not in horde formation is incredibly unfair.

Tupinamba
06-05-2012, 15:14
Tupinamba> comparing a unit in horde formation vs a unit not in horde formation is incredibly unfair.

But for the same points costs itīs not possible to take the spears in hordes and not many people take 40+ Spearmen units. Thatīs also why against the HE they were both in normal blocks.

Still, letīs do it.

40 DE Spears, shield, FC: 295
49 Marauders, GW, Mark of Khorne, FC: 295

1. Round:
DE: 41 attacks, 31 hits, 15,5 wounds
Marauders: 43 attacks, 21,5 hits , 17,91 wounds
remaining DE 22, remaining Marauders 33
Marauders win by 3 (charge +2 wounds), no steadfast
2. Round
DE: 23 attacks, 11,5 hits, 6,7 wounds
Marauders; 36 attacks, 18 hits, 15 wounds
Remaining DE 8, remaining Marauders 26
Marauders win by 1 rank + 8 wounds = 9, no steadfast

Against Peasants:

40 DE Spears, shield, FC: 295
53 Peasents, FC: 292

1. Round
DE: 41 attacks, 36 hits, 18 wounds, 12 kills
Peasants: 41 attacks, 20,5 hits, 13,66 wounds, 11 kills
DE remaining 29, Peasants remaining 41
Draw
2. Round
DE: 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds, 6,6 kills
Peasants: 35 attacks, 12,5 hits, 8 wounds, 6,6 kills
DE remaining 22, peasants 35
Peasants win by 1 (rank), no steadfast
3. Round
DE: 23 attacks, 15,18 hits, 7,5 wounds, 5 kills
Peasants: 31 attacks, 15 hits, 10 wounds, 8,34 kills
DE remaining 14, peasants remaining 30
Peasants win by 2 ranks +3 kills (5) no steadfast

Against T4 stuff like orcs, dwarfs and saurus the results are even worse.

Look, Iīm not saying that DE units are too expensive. They pay for the soft stats like M, I and Ld. Iīm just showing that on their own they already pretty much loose against other core precisely because they pay for the soft stats. To say nothing about their vulnerability to enemy shooting and magic.

DE need to have better support/magic or manouverability to overcome this in combat. It doesnīt have to be COB, Mindrazor whatever OP stuff. Iīm totally for fixing that. But making our core even more expensive would be excessive and, worse, forces us to build the abusing lists.

And yes, we have to compare them with HE too. If DE Spears would go up 1-2 points theyīd be almost or equally as expensive as HE spears, but without ASF and rerolls all rounds. 1 turn of hatred does not compensate this. Personally, Iīd be fine with more expensive DE Warriors, as long as they get the equivalent fighting power.

The Low King
06-05-2012, 15:43
Hmmm, marauders are generally reckoned to be overpriced though.

Why do the peasents get 40 attacks? surely it would be 30?


Im going to compare them to the new books:

skeleton warriors, 30 skeleton warriors against 20 warriors.

Warriors strike first, 16 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, SW take 6 wounds.
SW strike, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 2 wounds.
SW take another 3 wounds from combat res.

Warriors strike, 10.7 hits, 5.3 wounds, 4 kills.
SW strike, 2 wounds.
SW lose, take 2 casualties.

SW lose overall


Vs ogres:

30 warriors vs 6 ogres

Warriors stike first, approx 4 wounds
Ogres do approx 4 wounds.
Warriors win combat by 3 (rank bonus)

Warriors stike, approx 3 wounds
Ogres do approx 4 wounds

Warriors win on ranks again

Warriors grind them down.

shelfunit.
06-05-2012, 17:22
But for the same points costs itīs not possible to take the spears in hordes and not many people take 40+ Spearmen units. Thatīs also why against the HE they were both in normal blocks.

Against Peasants:

47 DE Spears, FC: 295 - DE spears do not need shields
53 Peasents, FC 292

1. Round
DE: 41 attacks, 36 hits, 18 wounds, 15 kills
Peasants: 38 attacks, 19 hits, 12 wounds, 10 kills
DE remaining 37, Peasants remaining 38
DEs win by 4, peasents are not steadfast - peasents break

You seem to think the peasents can use both their pole arms and shields - they can't. They either get the +1 strength or the +1 save.


Look, Iīm not saying that DE units are too expensive. They pay for the soft stats like M, I and Ld. Iīm just showing that on their own they already pretty much loose against other core precisely because they pay for the soft stats. To say nothing about their vulnerability to enemy shooting and magic.

Hahahah DEs too expensive - oh dear. M is not a soft stat - extra manouverability and charge range are vital in 8thed. I is not a soft stat - it is arguably the most important onein the game - it allows you to kill the enemmy before they can hit you back. Ld is not a soft stat - it protects against fear, panic and obviously breaking - in very close combats Ld 8 can be vital. DE vulnerability to shooting and magic - these are the same DEs who have better shooting and magic than the majority of armies in the game?


DE need to have better support/magic or manouverability to overcome this in combat. It doesnīt have to be COB, Mindrazor whatever OP stuff. Iīm totally for fixing that. But making our core even more expensive would be excessive and, worse, forces us to build the abusing lists.

DEs dofine in combat, and movement, and magic and shooting etc, etc.


And yes, we have to compare them with HE too. If DE Spears would go up 1-2 points theyīd be almost or equally as expensive as HE spears, but without ASF and rerolls all rounds. 1 turn of hatred does not compensate this. Personally, Iīd be fine with more expensive DE Warriors, as long as they get the equivalent fighting power.

That's because they are almost as good as HE spears. 8pts =/= 9pts (on further revision, based on the maths, 8pts with current abilities seems fair)

Hoshiyami
06-05-2012, 17:44
Im going to compare them to the new books:

skeleton warriors, 30 skeleton warriors against 20 warriors.

Warriors strike first, 16 attacks, 14 hits, 7 wounds, SW take 6 wounds.
SW strike, 11 attacks, 5.5 hits, 2.25 wounds, 2 wounds.
SW take another 3 wounds from combat res.

Warriors strike, 10.7 hits, 5.3 wounds, 4 kills.
SW strike, 2 wounds.
SW lose, take 2 casualties.

SW lose overall


Are you sure about this math result? Who gets the charge? If it's the SW they get +1 combat result. If it's the DE then they don't have 16 attacks, just 11 (effectively, ~1 less wound).

Also, SW have HW, LA and shield (they can be fielded with spear, but it's not very useful), in my numbers, against 16 hate-repeating attacks they take ~4 wounds. Against 16 non-repeating attacks, they take ~3 wounds.

So... SW charge, take 4 wounds and make 2 (1.83 against LA&shield DE), loose combat by 1 (2 more casualties - 1 charge), take 1 more casualty. 25 SW vs. 18 DE. (If DE charge, they make 3 wounds, take 2 and make 2 more by combat result, so it's the same result)

Next turn, DE attack, make 3 wounds, take 2 more by SW counter. SW have +3 rank bonus againt DE +2, so it's a draw. 22 SW vs. 16 DE.

Another turn leaves us with another draw (19 SW vs. 14 DE) and the DE begin to loose attacks slowly...

And also, we're neglecting the possibility of a failed fear test...

The Low King
06-05-2012, 18:35
Are you sure about this math result? Who gets the charge? If it's the SW they get +1 combat result. If it's the DE then they don't have 16 attacks, just 11 (effectively, ~1 less wound)....

The example i was responding to gave the numbers in a simple comparison, assuming neither had charged. Therefore i was responding in exactly the same manner. It wasnt supposed to be an all encompasing proof of how good they were, i am merely illustrating the fact that vs 8th edition troops the numbers were different to those he was giving.



Also, SW have HW, LA and shield (they can be fielded with spear, but it's not very useful), in my numbers, against 16 hate-repeating attacks they take ~4 wounds. Against 16 non-repeating attacks, they take ~3 wounds....

They have HW and Shields with their basic costs, taking LA increases the cost and thus changes things.


And also, we're neglecting the possibility of a failed fear test...

Right, so LD 9 with a reroll (possibly even LD10)....1% chance of failing and taking an extra wound, too small to factor it realistically. In addition, once you start considering LD you stop talking about an independent environment and start factoring in external factors such as magic etc.

shelfunit.
06-05-2012, 18:53
Right, so LD 9 with a reroll (possibly even LD10)....1% chance of failing and taking an extra wound, too small to factor it realistically. In addition, once you start considering LD you stop talking about an independent environment and start factoring in external factors such as magic etc.

I admit I am not giving DEs an easy ride in my posts, but if we are using examples in isolation we have to assume there is no general or BSB nearby.

The Low King
06-05-2012, 19:23
I admit I am not giving DEs an easy ride in my posts, but if we are using examples in isolation we have to assume there is no general or BSB nearby.

Hence why i said afterwards that realistically factoring it in requires too many external influences. Also why there where no LD tests factored in after every round of combat.

It is simply impossible to factor in leadership tests in isolation unless you are willing to start doing some serious statistics in every part of the mathhammer. (whilst i can accept that this may make the Skeletons that pay for this fear slightly worse...so it failing to include things like detatchment rules, the cauldron or shooting.)

logan054
06-05-2012, 20:15
Tupinamba> comparing a unit in horde formation vs a unit not in horde formation is incredibly unfair.

But why would you use spearman against marauders with GW and MoK in horde formation? its a silly comparison as the whole point in the spearmen would be to hold the marauders in place until you could get a flank charge on them with something that could deal a lot of damage, its one of these useless comparisons which people make which has little use in reality.


Well, in my personal experience, DE units bythemselves certainly do not simply run over equal opposition in points. After your post, I got intrigued to actually do some explicit mathhammer on DE Spears in a typical formation:

Ok, letīs do the comparison. Iīll use some examples that I happen to know the exact points costs and that I think should be reasonably representative.

First, against marauders.
30 Dark Elf Warriors with shields and FC: 225
36 Marauders, GW, mark of Khorne, FC: 226
Marauders attacking in horde against DE 5x6

1. Round:
DE: 16 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds
Marauders: 29 attacks, 14,5 hits, 12 wounds
18 remaining DE, 30 remaining Marauders
Marauders have charge, win by 7, no DE steadfast

2. Round (if there were one...)
DE: 16 attacks, 8 hits, 4 wounds
Marauders: 29 attacks, 14,5 hits, 12 wounds
6 remaining DE, 26 remaining Marauders
Marauders win by 10, no steadfast.

Bit confused here actually, why are the marauders getting 29 attacks? they are on larger bases, at most you will get 6 in base to base, you will not get 7 25mm bases in contact with 5 20mm bases, of course its a silly comparison considering how underpriced marauders with GW and MoK are, its hardly something you want to use as a baseline.


So this time DE loose the grinding. But they also lost each round, without rerolling valour of ages. And again, their hatred rerolls every round are only against HE themselves. Against all other races, HE spears would fare better.

While this is true DE spearmen are a hell of a lot cheaper than HW spearmen, in all honesty DE have far better support for the spearmen, I have a DE army I rarely use, while spearmen are not the main issue with the current book they certainly underpriced, I can not see any logical reason fr them being cheaper than empire swordsmen.


Finally, Iīm a little lazy to do the mathhammer for DE specials here now, but could post a BG x Chosen or even Warriors comparison and am pretty sure the results wouldnīt be very impressive either.

Black guard are a very good unit for the points, I think the key is the rerolls to hit every turn, I6 and access to AP for 25pts, thing is chaos warriors are hardly cheap, the only issue BG have atm is the unit size limit, a unit of 18 is still going to be able to dish out a lot of damage.

Bikhu
06-05-2012, 20:31
I play Dark Elves and I never compare them with Empire infantry. In fact, I think that Dark Elves are well suited for butchering light infantry, like the Empire state troops. I also don't see light infantry (state troops, goblins, etc.) as combat troops. They have numbers and ranks. If they happen to kill anything it's just a bonus on top of holding up the enemy for something better.

The comparisons that I usually make are to things like High Elf elites, most Chaos Warriors infantry, Saurus, Orcs, and pretty much anything else with a bit of toughness or armor. In my experience, Dark Elf infantry compare pretty unfavorably to all of these and I would gladly trade my own regiments for them.

For those of you folks who think that Dark Elf infantry are too cheap I would encourage you to switch armies with your buddy and try to play a game with them. I think you will find that Dark Elves have a lot of mean tricks and broken choices, but their basic infantry without any buffs (yes, even the Black Guard) are in my opinion pretty meh against many of the stuff out there. Just as a caveat, I never field the Hydra for personal reasons. So if you want to take up my challenge, play against Chaos Warriors or Lizardmen and don't field the Hydra.

I am not sure I understand the reasoning of this argument. Are you arguing that it is okay for Empire Spearmen and DE Spearmen to cost the exact same points even though DE Spearmen have higher Mov, WS, In, and ld, with no stat or rule that is worse then Empire Spearmen, simply because in your view the Empire Spearmen are light infantry and therefore not combat troops, whereas DE Spearmen, with the same equipment, are not light infantry so should be combat troops? Why are Empire Spearmen non-combat troops and DE Spearmen combat troops, it would seem that any unit with weapons and armor put onto the field of battle would be combat troops. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that the detachment rule and hatred equal each other out, I see no reasonable argument for DE Spearmen remaining at their current cost. 8 point Spearmen with shields is more reasonable but even that may be slightly undercosted if the army still contains consistent buffing mechanisms.

Given the perceived trend in 8th, comparing core infantry to 8th core infantry as opposed to 7th core infantry is the better comparison in terms of trying to figure out what price DE core infantry will be when it gets its 8th ed makeover. Against orcs DE Spearmen do just fine. They strike first, hit on 3+, and reroll misses in combat. Outside of combat, the elves have an extra movement to help them get into a better position and they do not have animosity, which is a significant disadvantage for orcs. It seems quite reasonable for them to cost 2 points more per model for those advantage, even with the orcs advantages of +1 toughness and the choppa rule.

I could be mistaken, but it seems to me that Black Guard just need there unit cap removed and their point cost increased by 1 point to compensate, as others have also been pointing out. Taken in larger units their 2 high WS, reroll misses, str4 attacks will be better. Especially backed up by stubborn and perhaps a magic banner.

The Low King
06-05-2012, 20:37
But why would you use spearman against marauders with GW and MoK in horde formation? its a silly comparison as the whole point in the spearmen would be to hold the marauders in place until you could get a flank charge on them with something that could deal a lot of damage, its one of these useless comparisons which people make which has little use in reality.

I know.

I didnt make the comparison, he was comparing strait out power rather than anything else.

Although, why you would use the spearelves to pin a unit cheaper than them is beyond me :D

logan054
06-05-2012, 20:50
I know.

I didnt make the comparison, he was comparing strait out power rather than anything else.

Although, why you would use the spearelves to pin a unit cheaper than them is beyond me :D

I know you didnt make it, just saying straight out power isn't really the whole basis of the pricing :p

Marauders with great weapons are the same points as marauders with great weapons (well slightly less after you factor in the mark), chances are the unit of spear elves will be smaller and thus it will be cheaper ;) I can think of many reasons why you would want to pin some marauders in place, because all the strength 5 attacks make many a DE cry in combat ;)

The Low King
06-05-2012, 21:33
Marauders with great weapons are the same points as marauders with great weapons (well slightly less after you factor in the mark)..............;)

damn, really? :p :D

logan054
06-05-2012, 21:49
haha, you know what I mean, its been a long day at work, I'm tired :(

Tupinamba
06-05-2012, 22:02
In my examples I was assuming DE Spears being charged (hence the quantity of ranks fighting) and "normal" formations, hence the marauders/peasants in hordes and the Spears in blocks, as that is what one would normaly field with these ammount of points. After that I did the horde example only so as not to be accused of being "incredibly unfair". And from what Iīve seen, I have made a mistake with the men-at-arms, for which I apologize. Iīve only used them because I had the costs and stats ready at hand and so as to use 3 very different kinds of opponents. If someone would make similar simulations with rats, orcs, dwarfs and saurus Iīd be interested to see the results and let myself be convinced if they show DE core going unsupported over enemy opposition.

The comparison of rough power is not everything, but it certainly is a point if we are saying that a unit is underpriced. And Iīm sorry, but Movement was a main characteristic back in the days when charging really mattered. Itīs still important, but 1 point of M difference doesnīt make that much of a difference to have a unit so much more expensive. In that context though, as others have posted, vulnerability to enemy shooting and magic is also something that has to be taken into account.

Comparing with the Skeletons, one has to also consider that they are ItP, never break, can be reraised and cause fear. Theyīll loose against the Warriors, but hold them (and everything else) tarpited for a long while. I donīt think itīs a good comparison. The one with the Ogres has to take the impact hits into account too.

As to the HE comparison, I really think that ASF and reroll all rounds of combat instead of just 1 round and a full rank more of attacks is pretty much worth more than just one point of difference.

But I find it sad that the whole discussion about suggestions for a new DE book revolves exclusively around points costs. Discussing, for example, what should be done to the CoB and DE magic would be more interesting, IMO.

The Low King
06-05-2012, 22:17
And the hydra.

CoB....area of effect buff (Infinite hatred/frenzy?), chariot, bound spell if you take it with a Sourceress (option to?)
DE magic...maybe 6 dice limit but with the lore attribute that you can use one extra dice at the cost of 'if that dice rolls a 1 its a miscast' or something like that.
Hydra, 250 points, exactly the same as it is now.

vinny t
06-05-2012, 22:25
Here are some ideas I've thought of.

-Spearmen +1 point
-Corsairs come with handbows +1pt for extra hand weapons
-Dark Riders 15pts, +4 for crossbows
-witch elves +1pt
-black guard +1pt no more unit cap
-shades +1pt with unit cap of 10
-cold one chariot -5pts
-RBT 80pts
-Hydra 215pts with S4 breath weapon

-pendant can only be taken on foot
-sacrificial dagger must declare before the casting
-capped at 6 dice to cast like everyone else
-sorcerers are 90pts
-masters are 70pts

The Low King
06-05-2012, 22:29
Why do people want to lower the price of the hydra from the SOM price?

logan054
06-05-2012, 22:35
I think your misunderstanding me, I was saying the marauders have to many attacks, not the spearman, as I said the spearmen are on smaller bases so you would only get 6 in b2b with the spearmen in a 5 wide formation, as such you the marauders would only be dishing out 25 attacks a turn, this also doesn't take into account the eotg rule which would mean they would have to challenge with the champion who would stand a good chance of dying on the first round of combat thanks to the rerolls to hit, the effect of this is the marauders only rolling 22 attacks on the first round rather than 29, its a massive difference. I also believe the standard setup for spearmen is without shields which would mean you get more spearman than marauders because of the marauders paying for MoK (another 5).

I don't believe anyone is saying they can walk across the board unsupported, this still doesn't mean that DE spearmen should be cheaper than empire swordsmen when they have higher M, I, Ld and hatred, its just a silly, if they lacked decent support I would make some sense but it just isn't the case, so it isn't because of movement that people feel spearmen should do up, its the combination of advantages they have over similar units.

Itp is a two edged sword, the main advantage of being immune to fear and panic doesn't really matter as much this edition with the improvement to BSB's and the auto breaking of fear gone, you lose one very important ability, the ability to flee from charges which can very often turn a game. And sure you can raise skeletons back but this really depends on how good a magic phase you have, its not reliable enough with how the magic system is in 8th ed, its great but frankly is much better with zombies.

I think points are the obvious thing to talk about with a new DE book, just seems to me bar the odd thing most things are fine ruleswise (ignoring magic items), only thing I really want to see changed is the hydra, I personally think its breathe weapon should get stronger the more wounds it regenerates, after all cut off one and two more appear :) Executioners need some sort of buff to make them viable, S5 striking in I order with KB would be very nice, atm black guard are just so much better and don't rely on the use of a magical banner.

Don Zeko
07-05-2012, 01:30
Here are some ideas I've thought of.

-Spearmen +1 point
-Corsairs come with handbows +1pt for extra hand weapons
-Dark Riders 15pts, +4 for crossbows
-witch elves +1pt
-black guard +1pt no more unit cap
-shades +1pt with unit cap of 10
-cold one chariot -5pts
-RBT 80pts
-Hydra 215pts with S4 breath weapon

-pendant can only be taken on foot
-sacrificial dagger must declare before the casting
-capped at 6 dice to cast like everyone else
-sorcerers are 90pts
-masters are 70pts

This all sounds very reasonable and fair, but Masters or Death hags on foot will still be completely useless with a 10 point drop.

vinny t
07-05-2012, 02:44
This all sounds very reasonable and fair, but Masters or Death hags on foot will still be completely useless with a 10 point drop.

I agree. Death Hags probably need like a 5+ Ward base from "blood tattoos" and maybe an upgrade that is -1 to hit for 25 points. They can be a little more survivable then.

The main problem with Masters is that they have no purpose on foot. They aren't killy enough to add much to the unit and the BSB is 99% of the time already a Hag with Cauldron. I say give them a magic item like Skavenbrew that buffs the unit they are with. Something like a "Totem of Blood" that acts as a mini-cauldron. Maybe a 6+ ward and hatred in all rounds of combat for 35pts?

ExquisiteMonkey
07-05-2012, 03:55
Vs ogres:

30 warriors vs 6 ogres

Warriors stike first, approx 4 wounds
Ogres do approx 4 wounds.
Warriors win combat by 3 (rank bonus)

Warriors stike, approx 3 wounds
Ogres do approx 4 wounds

Warriors win on ranks again

Warriors grind them down.

While I'm not a proclaimed math-hammerer, but this looks a bit off.

I'll have to assume you have points matched the units, as I don't have books nearby (and don't have the Ogre one full stop).

Lets say the dark Elf got the charge to deny the impact hits for the ogres, and that the DE are in 5x6 and Ogres are 2x3, which would be pretty standard in my eyes
DE; 11 attacks (including champion), 7.3 hits, 2.4 additional hits from hatred, which will amount to 3.2 wounds on the Ogres. I don't know their armour, but I think they have light armour and shield(ironfist)? or just shield(ironfist)? still, it is 2.8 unsaved wounds, which doesn't remove any attacks (technically)

But, lets for the sake of arguement, say the DE did remove an Ogre,
that's 16 attacks back (again, assuming champion), 8 hits, 5.3 wounds, which will be 4.5 dead DE's if shields are taken. Then you have stomps, that will likely cause 2 more wounds.

So combat res is (no banner or muso in either);
OG; 6 wounds = 6
DE; 3 wounds, 3 ranks, charge = 7
Slight win for DE, with the Ogres probably haning around? Or, win for Ogres if the 6th model wasn't removed (or if they got the charge).

Round 2 (assuming only 5 ogres remaining) is;
16 attacks for DE, 10.6 hits, 3.5 wounds, again, we'll be generous and remove a whole model.
13 attacks for OG, 6.5 hits, 4.3 wounds, 3.6 unsaved wounds. Stomp does 2 more, which amounts to 1.66 unsaved wounds, so another 5 dead DE.
combat res;
OG; 5 wounds = 5
DE; 2 ranks, 3 wounds = 5
draw.

Round 3 (4 ogres) is;
DE same as round 2
10 attacks for OG, 5 hits, 3.3 wounds, 2.8 unsaved. Stomp wounds twice, 1.66 unsaved, 4 DE dead.
combat res
DE; 2 ranks, 3 wounds = 5
OG; 4 wounds = 4
DE slight win.

If the 6th Ogre isn't taken out in the first round, this changes dramatically, and even if it is taken off, the DE don't win as easily as you indicate.

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 04:01
Hahahah DEs too expensive - oh dear. M is not a soft stat - extra manouverability and charge range are vital in 8thed. I is not a soft stat - it is arguably the most important onein the game - it allows you to kill the enemmy before they can hit you back. Ld is not a soft stat - it protects against fear, panic and obviously breaking - in very close combats Ld 8 can be vital. DE vulnerability to shooting and magic - these are the same DEs who have better shooting and magic than the majority of armies in the game?



DEs dofine in combat, and movement, and magic and shooting etc, etc.



Are you kidding about the soft stats? They ARE soft Stats. HARD Stats are Strength, Attacks, Wounds, Toughness. Movement is less important in this edition than any other due to random charging. Initiative, overall is worse then ever due to Step Up and Support attacks though it does get the slight boost of attacking first even when charged. You don't take many leadership tests if your units are higher in the HARD stats.

I agree however that DE are too cheap. +1 to +2 points across the board is needed OR +2 to +3 but DE gain;

Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.

All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.

shelfunit.
07-05-2012, 05:47
Are you kidding about the soft stats? They ARE soft Stats. HARD Stats are Strength, Attacks, Wounds, Toughness. Movement is less important in this edition than any other due to random charging. Initiative, overall is worse then ever due to Step Up and Support attacks though it does get the slight boost of attacking first even when charged. You don't take many leadership tests if your units are higher in the HARD stats.

We shall just have to disagree on this.


I agree however that DE are too cheap. +1 to +2 points across the board is needed

At the upper limit certainly.


OR +2 to +3 but DE gain;

Preternatural Senses
All elven-kind move with what seems to be effortless grace and blinding quickness to those of other races. Combining swiftness of thought with cat like reflexes and near mystical senses, an elf in battle is capable of easily anticipating the movements of their enemy, making it easier to strike them, or avoid their comparatively clumsy blows.

All Elves ASF. 6+ ward save (Against all attacks)
Note: ASF and Great weapons cancel each other out. 6+ Ward stackable with Parry OR other ward saves.

I know this is warhmmer fantasy, but that is a +4/5 pts bonus.

Cambion Daystar
07-05-2012, 08:01
- Remove the pendant or make it sorceress only
- Remove ring of hotek or make it only for bearer + unit
- Max 6 dice for cast, but give them +1 to casting
- Hydra 15-25 points more expensive
- Shades smaller units
- BG unit cap removed
- Remove ASF banner or make it 100 points
- Manticore cheaper

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 08:44
I know this is warhmmer fantasy, but that is a +4/5 pts bonus.

Are you saying ASF + a measly 6+ ward is worth +4/5 pts on a infantry model, that already has high initiative but low strength and toughness?

I'm trying to decide whether you are crazy or not. DE are undercosted probably by 1.5 (some 1 and some 2) points on many of their models. That ability is worth +1 pt MAYBE 1.5pt at a stretch!

Sheesh!

Jerry
07-05-2012, 09:01
Remove the ridiculous inverse ward save - Pendant of cheese or increase its points cost.
Make sacrificial dagger have some kind of risk involved ie if you roll a one with the PD your own unit attacks your sorcerer etc.

Cambion Daystar
07-05-2012, 09:29
Are you saying ASF + a measly 6+ ward is worth +4/5 pts on a infantry model, that already has high initiative but low strength and toughness?

I'm trying to decide whether you are crazy or not. DE are undercosted probably by 1.5 (some 1 and some 2) points on many of their models. That ability is worth +1 pt MAYBE 1.5pt at a stretch!

Sheesh!

Yes, because ASF also gives rerolls to hit every round in combination with your already high initiative. -> at least +2-3 points
Also, a 6+ ward that STACKS with parry is easily worth 1-2 points.

So this together gives a 3-5 point bonus.

Kurnous the Hunter
07-05-2012, 09:45
Yes, because ASF also gives rerolls to hit every round in combination with your already high initiative. -> at least +2-3 points
Also, a 6+ ward that STACKS with parry is easily worth 1-2 points.

So this together gives a 3-5 point bonus.

OK. I think you are. Elves don't put out high strength attacks, and generally not many attacks either. Re-rolling to hit is no big deal. Also how many elf models in Warhammer actually have a parry?!?!?

I can think of none, unless Dark elf warriors can have hand weapon + shield? Either way they lose out on spears or double handed weapons.

Striking first is not a big deal anyway as it was pre-8th ed. Step up and Supporting attacks have put paid to that. I am truly wondering whether you seriously believe a DE spearman should be worth 11 or 12 points when he hits with S3 and has T3, just because he can re-roll hits and has a 6++?
Compare that to say 8 or 9 points vanilla and I know what is more cost efficient!

shelfunit.
07-05-2012, 09:51
Are you saying ASF + a measly 6+ ward is worth +4/5 pts on a infantry model, that already has high initiative but low strength and toughness?

I'm trying to decide whether you are crazy or not. DE are undercosted probably by 1.5 (some 1 and some 2) points on many of their models. That ability is worth +1 pt MAYBE 1.5pt at a stretch!

Sheesh!

Yes - it is easily worth this. On high initiative the ASF means not only striking first every turn - even against opponents with the same I value , but also re-rolls to hit every single turn (I have lowered the overall cost as DEs already re-roll hits on the first turn). A 6+ ward save that can be combined with other ward saves is also extremely good. To claim this is worth at most 1.5pts per model is bordering on trolling.
Spears are worth 8pts at their current abilities/equipment - add the ASF and wardsave and 10-11pts is probably about right.

Druchii Monkey
07-05-2012, 09:53
Also how many elf models in Warhammer actually have a parry?!?!?
I can think of none, unless Dark elf warriors can have hand weapon + shield?

Warriors with crossbow - if you give them shield they also have hand weapon so get parry save.

Cambion Daystar
07-05-2012, 11:11
Not to mentions characters. Enter 3+ wardsave...

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2012, 11:16
Not to mentions characters. Enter 3+ wardsave...

Tzeentch characters get 3+ ward saves, everyone is okay with those right?

Cambion Daystar
07-05-2012, 11:46
Tzeentch characters get 3+ ward saves, everyone is okay with those right?
I'm not bothered at all, just saying that elf characters can get the parry save :-).
What does Mark of Tzeentch cost? Doesn't that come to around 2 points per model on an "average" unitsize? Or is that also horribly undercosted like Mark of Khorne? (these abilities really should be paid on a per model basis instead of a per unit basis)

Lord Dan
07-05-2012, 15:40
Warriors with crossbow - if you give them shield they also have hand weapon so get parry save.
warriors cannot opt to use hand weapons and shields.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2012, 15:44
warriors cannot opt to use hand weapons and shields.

The spearmen can't, as they have spears,
The crossbowmen have no such issues as they don't have spears...or indeed any other special weapon.

Lord Dan
07-05-2012, 19:39
The spearmen can't, as they have spears,
This is what I meant, though in the army book they're just referred to as "warriors".

decker_cky
07-05-2012, 20:20
Initiative is a softer stat, but I don't think WS is really much, if any softer than S and T, since it helps on the offence and on defence. Ld and Mv combined are definitely strong stats, since they let the army operate with a lot more flexibility. Low leadership makes you a slave to your general's bubble, whereas Ld8 is dependable on it's own in a pinch. Ld8 also is huge for mindrazor. I5 is huge too, striking before almost everything, and being near immune to pit of shades and purple sun. You can point at some of the individual improvements over the norm and say that they aren't significant, but elves as a whole have a lot of those improvements. On DE warriors, their improvements stick out, pretty much except when compared to marauders with GW and elites. If DE warriors went up 2 points (with shield included in the purchase), they'd still be a solid mainline unit.

Also, S3/T3 for most of the army is pretty common in warhammer. DE characters have low toughness, but DE units are average in that department.

Bikhu
07-05-2012, 20:49
Striking first is not a big deal anyway as it was pre-8th ed. Step up and Supporting attacks have put paid to that. I am truly wondering whether you seriously believe a DE spearman should be worth 11 or 12 points when he hits with S3 and has T3, just because he can re-roll hits and has a 6++?
Compare that to say 8 or 9 points vanilla and I know what is more cost efficient!

This argument seems to be part of a theme among DE players on this thread that I do not quite understand. The reasoning seems to be that because DE's have strength 3 and toughness 3 a host of other current or proposed bonuses should be severely discounted. I agree that strength and toughness are two of the most significant stats a model has due to combat mechanics, but I think a number of people may be overvaluing them to discount bonuses in other stats or abilities. Your spearmen and corsairs are not always going to be fighting opponents with toughness 4 and heavy armor, and every unit does (or should) have bad match-ups and good match-ups, part of tactics is trying to maneuver your units to get good match-ups. Don't send your corsairs against Dwarf Ironbreakers unless you are just using them to absorb damage while a hammer unit hits them in the flank. Do send them against goblins, skeletons, statetroops, etc. as the corsair's higher number of attacks, WS, and rerolls will be more effective. (Side note: the extra point of movement does help elves get better match-ups for their units, just ask any dwarf player about how movement effects your ability to put your troops where you want them).

The argument that rerolling misses in all rounds of combat and an unmodifiable 6++ save is only worth 2 points because it they are only str 3 toughness 3 is a bit off. A shield is 1 point by itself, and a perry save does not stack, and a shield cannot be used in conjunction with greatweapons, extra hand weapon, halberds, spears, etc. To me, clearly a ward save that is stackable and can be used with other weapon combinations is worth at least double what a shield is worth on its own. As a VC player, it is my perception/opinion that rerolling misses on str 3 toughness 3 troops is still quite significant. Getting VDM off on a skeleton spear horde adds a rough average of 10 hits and 5 wounds against toughness 3 opponents, even if the opposing unit has a 5+ armor save, and saves 2 of those wounds, the rerolls would add 3 extra kills. Three extra kills is not spectacular but it is significant, rerolling misses with str 3 troops has made a difference in several combats with my skeletons, and I have not been playing VC for very long.

Tupinamba
07-05-2012, 21:05
S3 T3 is reasonably common, but there is a lot of T4 around, and the other armies bar elves with T3 S3 donīt pay 7+ pts a mini. Thatīs what DE pay for the soft stats and itīs perfectly ok, but they are soft stats nevertheless, because if you put them one on one (points wise, not model wise) against most stuff that donīt pay for the soft statsa, DE loose, not to speak of cheap t4 stuff.

The argument about the ASF + 6+ ward being worth 4-5 points for DE is quite strange, as HE have the ASF and a full more rank, which is the equivalent of 5+ rerollable atacks, and are just 2 points more expensive. If HE spears are widely considered overpriced at 9 pts, how is it DE spears with equivalent rules should cost 11-12?

One poster made the suggestion of having them at 8pts with heavy armour, which seems quite reasonable to me and would fit the miniatures and fluff quite well IMO.

Another thing that I see suggested a lot is for BG not to have the cap. Iīm totally against it. BG is the elite of the elite and should never be fielded in hordes! Personally, Iīd rather have them as rares again. And keep them otherwise as they are. That would also make for a tougher choice regarding fielding Hydras.

Cambion Daystar
08-05-2012, 14:19
S3 T3 is reasonably common, but there is a lot of T4 around, and the other armies bar elves with T3 S3 donīt pay 7+ pts a mini.
My empire would like to disagree with you...

Hoshiyami
09-05-2012, 00:27
I'm not bothered at all, just saying that elf characters can get the parry save :-).
What does Mark of Tzeentch cost? Doesn't that come to around 2 points per model on an "average" unitsize?

Maybe I'm wrong, but that wouldn't put your "average" unit size at 10 models?

Just out of curiosity, this rule alone (stackable 6+ special save)... how much should cost?
And should it cost the same for a heavy armored T4 troop (chaos warrior) as for a T3 'red shirted' barbarian?

Cambion Daystar
09-05-2012, 14:16
Maybe I'm wrong, but that wouldn't put your "average" unit size at 10 models?

Just out of curiosity, this rule alone (stackable 6+ special save)... how much should cost?
And should it cost the same for a heavy armored T4 troop (chaos warrior) as for a T3 'red shirted' barbarian?
I honestly don't know the price of the mark without my book around.

Like i said, price should be on a per model base instead of per unit, and should also differ between a chaos warrior and a marauder.

A stackable 6+ wardsave should be AT LEAST 1/6th the cost of the model that has it, but not much more

Cambion Daystar
09-05-2012, 14:18
OK. I think you are. Elves don't put out high strength attacks, and generally not many attacks either. Re-rolling to hit is no big deal.
Rerolling to hit is no big deal? Are you the one that is crazy?
It only adds around 50% damage vs equal or higher weaponskill...

StygianBeach
09-05-2012, 15:19
Rerolling to hit is no big deal? Are you the one that is crazy?
It only adds around 50% damage vs equal or higher weaponskill...

'Only' 50%... I dont think I have ever heard that before.

Spear Warriors: +1 point.
Rep X-bow Warriors: drop Armour piercingfrom X-Bows. Same cost
Corsairs: Drop Slavers. Handbow range 12''. Can take Handbow and additional handweapon for +2 points. Same cost.
Dark Riders: -1 point. X-bow +4 points.
Harpies: +1 point. Change Beasts rule to allow painic in other Dark Elves.

Witch Elves: +1 point. Unit size 10+.
Executioners: -2 points. -1 WS. -1 Initiative Unit size 10+
Shades: +2 points. -1 WS.
Black guard: +2 points.
Knights: -2 points.
Cold One Chariot: -10 points.

Bolt Thrower: -20 points.
Hydra: +50 points. Normal Handler rules. No Cauldron Buffs.

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 15:39
This thread has turned into a somewhat fascinating social experiment. Everyone has a different opinion of what needs point increases/decreases, and it seems to be based entirely on their local meta. For example in the list above, Stygian suggested 10+ witch elves with a point increase as he's probably seen the effectiveness of witch darts. Elsewhere in this thread I've seen people call for witch elves to be moved to core with a point decrease because they're so vulnerable. I've also seen all kinds of recommendations on the hydra (+200 points, -100 points, 3+ regen, loses hatred, more strength, more wounds) and again, it seems to be based on how scary people find the hydra.

Interesting stuff.

shelfunit.
09-05-2012, 15:41
Executioners: -2 points. -1 WS. -1 Initiative Unit size 10+

Excecutioners at 10pts a model. Seriously? Compare them to their "nearest" analogies - Hammerers and greatswords - both of which are far, far weaker stat and ruleswise and cost more than 10pts.
Excecutioners need both your stat modifications and a point increase for the abilities they bring to the table.

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 15:47
Not sure I agree, selfunit. Just drop their weapon skill, keep them where they are (already more points per model than greatswords) and call it good.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 15:48
Excecutioners at 10pts a model. Seriously? Compare them to their "nearest" analogies - Hammerers and greatswords - both of which are far, far weaker stat and ruleswise and cost more than 10pts.
Excecutioners need both your stat modifications and a point increase for the abilities they bring to the table.

Stubborn, +1T, +1WS vs Killing blow and hatred...

What else?. (i dont have the book)

shelfunit.
09-05-2012, 15:58
Not sure I agree, selfunit. Just drop their weapon skill, keep them where they are (already more points per model than greatswords) and call it good.

By a single point. 30 of them will wipe out around 24 great swords for barely half that in return on the first combat phase.


Stubborn, +1T, +1WS vs Killing blow and hatred...

What else?. (i dont have the book)

The excecutioners will still be hitting the Hammerers on a 3+ re-rollable with a 2+ no save to wound. On their current points you can match them up 1:1. On a 30 vs 30 basis they (the hammerers) will be wiped out in two combat phases with the excecutioners losing les than half their number. The +1 toughness the dwarfs have is rendered irrelevent as with great weapons the exceutioners have Str 6, the +1 WS - excecutioners have WS 6 compared to the hammerers WS 5 means hitting on 3's for the DE every time.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 16:09
Excecutioners have WS6? pretty sure its 5...meaning a drop of 1 means Hammerers will hit THEM on 3s..

They also strike at the same time dont they? both having ASL..

The toughness means little agaisnt S6, but against everything else in the DE book it makes a significant difference.

Maths with the proposed changes:

40 hammerers vs 40 excecutioners (noone takes hammerers in hordes of 30, its stupid)

Excecutioners: kill 19 (18.75)
hammerers: kill 17 (16.66666)

next round:

Excecutioners kill 10 (9.58)
Hammerers kill 12 (11.66666)

Next round

Excecutioners kill 5 (4.6)
hammerers kill 6 (6.1)


And the excecutioners best target is the hammerers whilst the hammerers perform better against things that are S5 or less but T4 or above

And of course stubborn...worth its weight in gold

shelfunit.
09-05-2012, 16:16
Excecutioners have WS6? pretty sure its 5...meaning a drop of 1 means Hammerers will hit THEM on 3s..

They also strike at the same time dont they? both having ASL..

The toughness means little agaisnt S6, but against everything else in the DE book it makes a significant difference.

Damn it - I am having a bloody awful day. Ill in bed and I've been playing Excecutions as WS 6. 2 bloody years 've thought they had WS6 - I even have the book in front of me :mad:

EDIT: In that case at WS5 I would have them a point more, but with a drop in Str by -1 I'd keep them the same points.

Cambion Daystar
09-05-2012, 17:00
'Only' 50%... I dont think I have ever heard that before.

Sarcasm...

The Low King
09-05-2012, 17:13
Damn it - I am having a bloody awful day. Ill in bed and I've been playing Excecutions as WS 6. 2 bloody years 've thought they had WS6 - I even have the book in front of me :mad:

EDIT: In that case at WS5 I would have them a point more, but with a drop in Str by -1 I'd keep them the same points.

:D

I think they should definatly keep their role as elite infantry killers (killing blow, high strength)

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 19:38
By a single point. 30 of them will wipe out around 24 great swords for barely half that in return on the first combat phase.

Well, 30 executioners are also 96 points more expensive than 24 Greatswords. If you took a unit of 30 executioners against a unit of 33 greatswords they'd be about the same point cost:

In 6x5 formation for both, no command:

Executioners do 9 hits (with hatred), 7.5 wounds.
Greatswords do 4.98 wounds.

That 3 wound differential in unit size is made up in the first round, as both are down to about 26 models. Now they're both hitting eachother on 4's and wounding on 2's, so they end up statistically killing eachother assuming no outside interference. The greatswords are also stubborn, so I'd wager they would end up winning a protracted combat given that it's unlikely either side would maintain steadfast.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 19:46
Well, 30 executioners are also 96 points more expensive than 24 Greatswords. If you took a unit of 30 executioners against a unit of 33 greatswords they'd be about the same point cost:

In 6x5 formation for both, no command:

Executioners do 9 hits (with hatred), 7.5 wounds.
Greatswords do 4.98 wounds.

That 3 wound differential in unit size is made up in the first round, as both are down to about 26 models. Now they're both hitting eachother on 4's and wounding on 2's, so they end up statistically killing eachother assuming no outside interference. The greatswords are also stubborn, so I'd wager they would end up winning a protracted combat given that it's unlikely either side would maintain steadfast.

With the current rules the Excecutioners would be hitting the Greatswords on 3s. With the suggested revised rules (-1I, -1WS, -2PPM) they would be cheaper than greatswords

Petey
09-05-2012, 19:50
My empire would like to disagree with you...

Quoted for truth.


I fortell that dark elves, and indeed all elves will cost 6pts base in 8th ed. Then they will have to pay for all seasons just like everyone else (weapons, armor, hatred, bleach for hairstyle, etc)

shelfunit.
09-05-2012, 20:38
Well, 30 executioners are also 96 points more expensive than 24 Greatswords. If you took a unit of 30 executioners against a unit of 33 greatswords they'd be about the same point cost:

In 6x5 formation for both, no command:

Executioners do 9 hits (with hatred), 7.5 wounds.
Greatswords do 4.98 wounds.

That 3 wound differential in unit size is made up in the first round, as both are down to about 26 models. Now they're both hitting eachother on 4's and wounding on 2's, so they end up statistically killing eachother assuming no outside interference. The greatswords are also stubborn, so I'd wager they would end up winning a protracted combat given that it's unlikely either side would maintain steadfast.

I meant in general terms. 30 Executioners against 24, 33, or 100 greatswords will still kill an average of about 24 on the first turn - and why would you ever have them (or any other unit with great weapons) not in horde formation? Great weapons are there to kill things, nothing kills things better than the maximum possible number of attacks - and that means horde formation.

logan054
09-05-2012, 21:27
I meant in general terms. 30 Executioners against 24, 33, or 100 greatswords will still kill an average of about 24 on the first turn - and why would you ever have them (or any other unit with great weapons) not in horde formation? Great weapons are there to kill things, nothing kills things better than the maximum possible number of attacks - and that means horde formation.

Can I borrow your magic dice please :) I think its more like 18 as Greatswords get armour save (last I checked), greatswords in return will still kill about 13, so not taking in to account the detachment rule while the executioners will win your not going to have a whole lot of them left, what exactly do you expect 12 T3 ASL models to do in a game?

I agree that DE stuff needs some point increases, I don't think executioners is one of them, I would rather the unit actually got rethought, currently I can't really see why you would take them over the other elite choices unless you have a BSB with ASF banner (which in itself relies on a BSB surviving more than a turn of combat).

Assassins really need buffing, I think just a dodge save as standard and they would be fine, I wouldn't mind them moving to characters as it honestly wont make a massive difference to me.

Something else, if HE retain ASF for 8th then I personally think all elves should have it, I just can't see any logical reason for HE being faster than DE or WE, just seems beyond daft.

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 21:31
Can I borrow your magic dice please :) I think its more like 18 as Greatswords get armour save (last I checked)
No, shelfunit is actually correct. The greatswords lose their armor against the S6 attacks from the executioners.

logan054
09-05-2012, 21:40
No, shelfunit is actually correct. The greatswords lose their armor against the S6 attacks from the executioners.

S6? I thought it was S5? well that makes it 22 dead :p doesn't change the fact the unit is going to take heavy loses from the great swords, 13 first found, 3/4 2nd found, its hardly going to be doing much the rest if the game other than offering a easy kill, I still think its the other specials that are more of a issue.

I need to show this tread to the people in my local GW, they seem to think WoC are more broken than Dark Elf :rolleyes: I have also been told the majority of the internet feel the same as well :wtf:

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 22:39
Right, executioners are only bad next to the absurdly undercosted Black Guard.

logan054
09-05-2012, 23:00
So that changes the fact after a fight with a unit of greatswords they wont have enough models to actually do anything constructive for the rest of the game? so they are going to run in, kill equal point unit of greatswords, just over half the unit will be dead and then die to any counter charge, so basically you lose as many points as you kill... Like I said I think the unit really needs to be rethought, most things in the DE book either need a price rise or debuff, it is a poorly balanced book when compared to other armies.

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 23:15
So that changes the fact after a fight with a unit of greatswords they wont have enough models to actually do anything constructive for the rest of the game? so they are going to run in, kill equal point unit of greatswords, just over half the unit will be dead and then die to any counter charge, so basically you lose as many points as you kill... Like I said I think the unit really needs to be rethought, most things in the DE book either need a price rise or debuff, it is a poorly balanced book when compared to other armies.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, but since you brought it up, why should 300 points of executioners be able to roll through 300 points of greatswords and be able to do anything the rest of the game? It means their primary function isn't cutting through infantry, but high armored elite units.

Hoshiyami
09-05-2012, 23:15
I honestly don't know the price of the mark without my book around.

Like i said, price should be on a per model base instead of per unit, and should also differ between a chaos warrior and a marauder.

A stackable 6+ wardsave should be AT LEAST 1/6th the cost of the model that has it, but not much more

Then, I'm affraid tzeench mark is seriously undercosted for your taste. It's 10 skaven slaves per unit (marauder, chaos warrior, chosen...).

I fully agree with you that it should be a points-per-miniature increase, but the same case affects almost all the buffers in the game (cauldron, chaos shrine, hate giving characters, piercing banners...) It's hard to balance, isn't it?

In dark elf warriors it would be at least 1 point, I would agree with it... But as they are right now, they wouldn't benefit from stacking it with parry, as they have spears, so most dark elves players would want to give away their spears for free :P It's something important to bear in mind the possibility to mix another save (and how good it would be). Black amulet (as it is now) would become fearsome, for instance...

logan054
09-05-2012, 23:27
I wasn't disagreeing with you, but since you brought it up, why should 300 points of executioners be able to roll through 300 points of greatswords and be able to do anything the rest of the game? It means their primary function isn't cutting through infantry, but high armored elite units.

So your nit picking then :p reading your post has made me reconsider them needing to be redesigned, just proves how much attention I have paid to them in the past lol, its obvious that they excel in the function of elite unit killers while greatswords are meant to me a slow grind you down unit.

StygianBeach
10-05-2012, 00:05
Excecutioners at 10pts a model. Seriously? Compare them to their "nearest" analogies - Hammerers and greatswords - both of which are far, far weaker stat and ruleswise and cost more than 10pts.
Excecutioners need both your stat modifications and a point increase for the abilities they bring to the table.

Executioners (modified) M:5 WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8

Executioners (modified) Vs Greatswords. I see your point, but I think when comparing these 2 it mainly comes down to Stubborn vs Hatred.

After looking at the mathhammer above it looks like a 2 point drop is perhaps too much. However, I am not convinced that they are better than Greatswords. Sure, the Executioners would slaughter Greatswords in the first round of combat, but I think Stubborn is just more versatile, especially outside the Greatweapon Grudgematch.

so 30 vs 30 both in Horde. Round 1: Exe's kill 19. GS kill 13. Round 2: Exe's kill 7. GS kill 5.

In round 3 you have 12 Executions vs 4 Great Swords. So what happens next, likely the GS are wiped out completly, and the Exe's avoid combat for the next 2 turns?

Despite Exe's (modified) performing about 33% better in a direct match up with Greatswords I still think the units have equal value.

Hoshiyami
10-05-2012, 00:44
Executioners (modified) M:5 WS:4 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:4 A:1 Ld:8

Executioners (modified) Vs Greatswords. I see your point, but I think when comparing these 2 it mainly comes down to Stubborn vs Hatred.

After looking at the mathhammer above it looks like a 2 point drop is perhaps too much. However, I am not convinced that they are better than Greatswords. Sure, the Executioners would slaughter Greatswords in the first round of combat, but I think Stubborn is just more versatile, especially outside the Greatweapon Grudgematch.

so 30 vs 30 both in Horde. Round 1: Exe's kill 19. GS kill 13. Round 2: Exe's kill 7. GS kill 5.

In round 3 you have 12 Executions vs 4 Great Swords. So what happens next, likely the GS are wiped out completly, and the Exe's avoid combat for the next 2 turns?

Despite Exe's (modified) performing about 33% better in a direct match up with Greatswords I still think the units have equal value.

Greatsword are S3 (and no KB). That is a big difference against characters, heavy cavalry and high T monsters...

The Low King
10-05-2012, 01:44
Greatsword are S3 (and no KB). That is a big difference against characters, heavy cavalry and high T monsters...

S3 but with GWs

The bearded one
10-05-2012, 01:48
Greatswords have full plate armour and stubborn, executioners have hatred, WS5, strength 4, killing blow, movement 5 and high initiative (helps against spells)

purge the daemon
10-05-2012, 03:45
I read all this and realize that no one agrees and yet you all agree as well. You argue about everything I don't feel like getting in a fight but you can't break the whole races fluff because you think 1 unit is to good so then stick with what's standard for the race drop S4 so they aren't broken problem solved mostly. There are so many points for both sides this thread will go on forever and just like any other book you will be disapointed and then realize its not bad so I quote Bob Marley don't worry be happy!!! And get the **** on with life good things and bad things come around there is always a middle ground and you sometimes just fall on the wrong side oh well.

Bikhu
10-05-2012, 06:37
I do not have my book with me, but am I wrong that if two units have ASL that they attack in initiative order? Isn't that the way it works for ASF?

StygianBeach
10-05-2012, 06:45
I do not have my book with me, but am I wrong that if two units have ASL that they attack in initiative order? Isn't that the way it works for ASF?

They count as having the same iniative.

Valaraukar
10-05-2012, 06:58
Yes ASL basically gives you Initiative 0, you might be confused with when you have both ASF and ASL in which case they cancel out and you fight in initiative order.

Bikhu
10-05-2012, 15:27
Yes ASL basically gives you Initiative 0, you might be confused with when you have both ASF and ASL in which case they cancel out and you fight in initiative order.

That is indeed what I was doing, thank you.

I can see why DE players would view Executioners as less desirable than Black Guard, as one of their significant advantages is taken away with gw's giving ASL. The two DE players in my group and club never field them.

Count Zero
10-05-2012, 16:26
I think Exec's do have their uses, no unit cap is a big plus, and the reliable S6 strike is pretty powerful. you can boost them with the CoB ward save to aid survivability, or just take large enough number to soak up the damage and give them +1A to really decimate pretty much anything they touch.

Phazael
10-05-2012, 17:45
Executioners are terrible. They do not even compare favorably with other similar elite GW troops in other books. The Cauldron kind of makes them playable, but Black Guard with the AP banner is better at cracking armor and witches are actually superior at killing monsters. And quite literally everything in the book is better when Mind Razor is tossed into the mix. They are one of two units in the book that are actually underpowered, the manticore hero being the other.

The Low King
10-05-2012, 18:15
Executioners are terrible. They do not even compare favorably with other similar elite GW troops in other books. The Cauldron kind of makes them playable, but Black Guard with the AP banner is better at cracking armor and witches are actually superior at killing monsters. And quite literally everything in the book is better when Mind Razor is tossed into the mix. They are one of two units in the book that are actually underpowered, the manticore hero being the other.

You mean despite all the maths on the previous pages proving that they win against both Hammerers and Greatswords?

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2012, 18:37
You mean despite all the maths on the previous pages proving that they win against both Hammerers and Greatswords?

You're going to use them in a horde, same for both units.
Both units will be 40 strong as that's a good horde size.
They all "suffer" from ASL so all fight at the same time.

Exes vs Hammerers
Exes kill 19.38, Hammerers kill 12.92
Exes kill 11.70, Hammerers kill 9.00
Exes kill 7.95, Hammerers kill 4.13
At this point there are 19.95 executionairs left and 0.97 Hammerers left.

Exes vs Greatswords
Exes kill 22.96, Greatswords kill 12.92
Exes kill 18.72, Greatswords kill 7.52
At this point all 40 Greatswords are gone and there are 19.64 Executionairs left.

Hammerers vs Greatswords
Hammerers kill 17.22, Greatswords kill 10.33
Hammerers kill 17.04, Greatswords kill 7.93
Hammerers kill 12.63, Greatswords kill 2.24
All the Greatswords are again, gone and there are 19.5 Hammerers left.

So yeah, Executionairs win this hands down due to hatred, ws5 and St6
Greatswords struggle being a measly ws4 and only a puny st5.

They are also the weakest and most easily killed, along with not being Stubborn.
Which makes sense as they all cost basically the same and the highest damage troops should be the weakest and most easily broken when beaten.

Von Wibble
10-05-2012, 18:39
I think executioners are about right myself, as long as you make characters able to join them (not just witch elves), and give them decent access to magic standards and champion items (like black guard). I don't think you can compare them to hammerers fairly but I don't think you can consider mind razor too much either.

Other changes I'd want to see

Assassin has decent enough rules mechanics but I tihnk he should be able to hide ni the shadows during combat instead of attacking. Give him a chance of success (fixed dice roll or I test for example) and let him move to a friendly non engaged unit within 6" if successful - alows the enemy to keep surprised and justifies the high points cost. Points count for special not characters also.

Hydra needs to come into SoM points costs - 230-250 seems fair given the handlers and hatred.

Black guard - personally I think the unit cap of 20 is a good rule and they should be kept at the relatviely cheap cost (but I'm sure from a model selling perspecitve the unit cap will go - in which case costs should rise a little).

Cauldron - Hopefully an option to take without a character to babysit (or the character is included and its a rare, like casket of souls). Slight points cost to account for this (+20 points).

Magic - Dark magic should be expensive to cast but powerful. Imo keep power of darkness as a signature spell and have all other spells with power level at least 12+. However, power level (accounting for cost) needs to be in line with vampires and ogres. Lore attirbute should enforce the idea of trying to grab power - successfully cast spell allows you to steal a dispel dice (not sure if that's same as goblin one though?) or gives +1 to cast cumulatively?

Warriors need to go up 1 point.

Corsairs need to have handbows count as extra hand weapon and cost 12 each with this. Frenzy banner probably has to go (but with shooting and 2a you have a very flexible core unit anyway).

In an ideal world options for a cult of slaanesh army but I can't see that one happening.

sulla
10-05-2012, 18:51
You're going to use them in a horde, same for both units.
Both units will be 40 strong as that's a good horde size.
They all "suffer" from ASL so all fight at the same time.

The complications come in that DE can buff their executioners with the cauldron- typically a 5++ ward, but possibly an extra attack to benefit from hatred in the first phase. The hammerers and greatswords, on the other hand, will most likely be buffed by shooting, trying to reduce the executioners numbers so that they will lose the battle of attrition against other hordes. They also have the benefit of being able to add resilient heroes to their big investment unlike executioners, who can only add unarmoured t3 heroes to their unit.

Personally, I think the executioners points cost is fine as is. It would be nice if there was a way to get a more resilient character in the unit, either letting some characters upgrade to Khainite, or letting hags take talismans and enchanted items as well as temple gifts.

shelfunit.
10-05-2012, 18:57
They are also the weakest and most easily killed, along with not being Stubborn.
Which makes sense as they all cost basically the same and the highest damage troops should be the weakest and most easily broken when beaten.

When are Excecutioners going to be beaten in 1 on 1 combat? The only time I can see this happening is (possibly) flail wielding marauders (another horrifically under priced unit), a couple of HE units and another unit of excecutioners. Everything else either cannot put out enugh damage, or will be suffering those effectively guarenteed 22+ casualties in the first round of combat. At best you have to hope to beat them by attrition, but against 4 of them any troops likely to do this are going to get chopped down at a phenomenal rate - possibly losing 40-50 troops over the course of 2 game turns.

EDIT: Ogres might have the power too, but losing 7+ ogres in the opening combat round is still going to hurt.

decker_cky
10-05-2012, 19:19
Executioners are terrible. They do not even compare favorably with other similar elite GW troops in other books. The Cauldron kind of makes them playable, but Black Guard with the AP banner is better at cracking armor and witches are actually superior at killing monsters. And quite literally everything in the book is better when Mind Razor is tossed into the mix. They are one of two units in the book that are actually underpowered, the manticore hero being the other.

What are these other similar GW troops that make them look so bad? I'd say they're marginally worse than bestigors, but need less babysitting (Ld8, and they can get stubborn without a character). Better than graveguard, tomb guard, probably better than greatswords, maybe worse value than hammerers, but not by too much there. Worse value than bloodletters, but bloodletters are acknowledged as underpriced.

Executioners look bad beside other choices in their own book. They're a very good unit, and are excellent when you factor in the cauldron boosting them. Black guard and witch elves will get worse in the next book. That will fix the main issue with executioners.

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2012, 19:31
When are Excecutioners going to be beaten in 1 on 1 combat?

A Swordmaster horde rapes them utterly, killing off 30 before the executionairs have had a chance to swing.
Chaos Warriors can do a lot of damage, basic halberd warriors will kill 17 easily enough, suffering 15 wounds in return.....those executionairs just lost and aren't steadfast.

Or instead of fighting them head on you could flank them.
Or just shoot/magic them a bit first so they aren't getting the full 31 attacks on you.....
Making your own horde toughness 7 helps too as the damage they inflict drops to a paultry 9 wounds.

Fighting them 1 vs 1 with a unit that doesn't have the ability to re-roll to hit and doesn't really heavily outnumber them or do much in the way of damage is a bad idea though.

shelfunit.
10-05-2012, 19:40
A Swordmaster horde rapes them utterly, killing off 30 before the executionairs have had a chance to swing.

It's almost like you didn't bother to read my whole post :eek: :rolleyes:


I can see this happening is (possibly) flail wielding marauders (another horrifically under priced unit), a couple of HE units and another unit of excecutioners.


Chaos Warriors can do a lot of damage, basic halberd warriors will kill 17 easily enough, suffering 15 wounds in return.....those executionairs just lost and aren't steadfast.

You mean those "basic halberd warriors" that cost 1/3 again more than an excecutioner? I would expect the mto do a hell of a lot more damage than 2 additional wounds, but why waste facts on a perfectly good argument? :rolleyes:



Or instead of fighting them head on you could flank them.

Flank a Mv 5 unit 1 on 1, what happens if the Excecutioners decide they want to flank you?


Or just shoot/magic them a bit first so they aren't getting the full 31 attacks on you.....
Making your own horde toughness 7 helps too as the damage they inflict drops to a paultry 9 wounds.

You're not quite getting the "1 on 1" thing here are you. And pretty much any buff/shooting you can do, the DEs can also do.



Fighting them 1 vs 1 with a unit that doesn't have the ability to re-roll to hit and doesn't really heavily outnumber them or do much in the way of damage is a bad idea though.

Stunning logic - but these are similarly priced units fulfilling (or at least suppose to be filling) a similar role in a different army.

AzureDruchii
10-05-2012, 19:43
I've never understood why in math hammer, people neglect basic tactics. You say executioners are underpriced and place them against greatswords without using greatswords how they should be used.

For example, 40 executioners vs 40 greatswords. Depending on the tactical situation, it would be easy to swift reform and walk up as a 5x8 block of greatswords, eat the hatred round with less attacks and then reform wide. Or hell, stay with a compact formation the entire time and watch the executioners fight for half the game with an exceptionally wide formation that allows for easy charges.

By my math it'll take 4 rounds of combat to kill the greatswords if they are 5 frontage giving plenty of time to countercharge.

Yes, greatswords are going to lose no matter what BUT fighting higher ws, armor negating infantry isn't they job. At least IMO

shelfunit.
10-05-2012, 19:45
I've never understood why in math hammer, people neglect basic tactics. You say executioners are underpriced and place them against greatswords without using greatswords how they should be used.

For example, 40 executioners vs 40 greatswords. Depending on the tactical situation, it would be easy to swift reform and walk up as a 5x8 block of greatswords, eat the hatred round with less attacks and then reform wide. Or hell, stay with a compact formation the entire time and watch the executioners fight for half the game with an exceptionally wide formation that allows for easy charges.

By my math it'll take 4 rounds of combat to kill the greatswords if they are 5 frontage giving plenty of time to countercharge.

Yes, greatswords are going to lose no matter what BUT fighting higher ws, armor negating infantry isn't they job. At least IMO

You seem to be ignoring the fact that DEs have both far superior and far cheaper core warriors than your empire - if you are lucky all your counter charging troops will already be locked in combat with otherr troops.

EDIT: After 3 combat rounds the (40) great swords will have roughly 2 models left, the (40) excecutioners will still have about 30 left - bring on the next fodder.

AzureDruchii
10-05-2012, 19:52
And you seem to be ignoring the drastically more effective war machines that empire brings to the table. A 1 on 1 fight between executioners and greatswords with 0 support to either side will never happen in game. Furthermore, how about I swift reform to a stubborn minimum width conga. The executioners never kill the greatswords and neither unit gives up any points.

shelfunit.
10-05-2012, 19:59
And you seem to be ignoring the drastically more effective war machines that empire brings to the table. A 1 on 1 fight between executioners and greatswords with 0 support to either side will never happen in game. Furthermore, how about I swift reform to a stubborn minimum width conga. The executioners never kill the greatswords and neither unit gives up any points.

And you seem to be forgetting the multitude of warmachine hunters DEs can bring to the table. Harpies, Dark riders, shades, Reapater bolt throwers, magic - if you don't go first you will have essentially a single turn of shooting before you are charged or you need to prioritise other targets.

EDIT: And who could forget the CoB 5+ wardsave a unit like excecutioners will be getting

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2012, 20:12
You mean those "basic halberd warriors" that cost 1/3 again more than an excecutioner? I would expect the mto do a hell of a lot more damage than 2 additional wounds, but why waste facts on a perfectly good argument? :rolleyes:

So?
Since when was damage output in optimal conditions the only thing that counted towards point cost?

shelfunit.
10-05-2012, 20:17
So?
Since when was damage output in optimal conditions the only thing that counted towards point cost?

As a unit specificallty designed to kill the opposition in close combat quite a lot.

AzureDruchii
11-05-2012, 06:12
Ignoring their extra resistance to stat based spells and ranged fire? (T4 and 4+ armor go a long way)

I guess we are simply not going to agree. Executioners in any other book would be decent. In the DE, there are WAY too many other things to spend points on. Furthermore, optimal conditions for the Executioners will obviously favor them. I would not suggest throwing GS willy nilly into a block you know is much better than them.

shelfunit.
11-05-2012, 07:12
Ignoring their extra resistance to stat based spells and ranged fire? (T4 and 4+ armor go a long way)

EDIT: Cauldren of blood ward saves, lower opposition numbers, equally good magic. CWs will be far lower in number on the battle field and when faced with the average minimum of 40 armour piercing RXB shots coming your way every turn that's about 5 less warriors a turn to deal with once they do get into combat.
.

I guess we are simply not going to agree. Executioners in any other book would be decent. In the DE, there are WAY too many other things to spend points on. Furthermore, optimal conditions for the Executioners will obviously favor them. I would not suggest throwing GS willy nilly into a block you know is much better than them.

That is the whole point of the majority of non-DE players - just because in the DE book they are not the best choice does not mean they are not spectacularly good compared to other army books. Optimal conditions for the excecutions are being in combat against non-HEs and marauders. The internal balence of whatever new DE book when it eventually comes out is secondary to the balence between the DE book and all the other books. I agree that you wouldn't want to throw GSs into combat against an opponent that is much better than them - against DEs however an Empire player has little to no choice - he has nothing better than the excecutioners to put into combat (possibly demi-griffs now, but they will still be shredded).

Phazael
11-05-2012, 14:50
Not to mention that once you toss the cauldron into the discussion you probably need to start talking about warrior priests and detatchments comming into play, as well. Executioners might win a one on one with some of the other GW troops in the game, but in terms of overall utility and how they impact the army, Empire GS, Bestigors, Maurauders with GW, GG with GW, and anything with the word High Elf in it with a GW are all better for their cost.

shelfunit.
11-05-2012, 15:27
Not to mention that once you toss the cauldron into the discussion you probably need to start talking about warrior priests and detatchments comming into play, as well. Executioners might win a one on one with some of the other GW troops in the game, but in terms of overall utility and how they impact the army, Empire GS, Bestigors, Maurauders with GW, GG with GW, and anything with the word High Elf in it with a GW are all better for their cost.

All these added extras were already talked about in previous posts... To repeat - anything Empire (and almost every other army) can bring to the table DE can either bring something equivalent and cheaper, better at the same price or a counter.

EDIT: Anyway, I shall leave this topic now as it is obvious the (majority of) DE players posting here are oblivious to how powerful their army is in general and how the majority of it is undercosted for what it can do. All of the numerous examples show this to be the case as do the average results of a great many tournements across the globe. DEs are going to get hit hard in their new book - not by the nerf bat, but by the balence bat, I hope the players are ready for it.

Djekar
11-05-2012, 16:45
When you're overpowered, becoming "balanced" is being "nerfed".

Also, I hope the dark elf army gets more balanced with the rest of 8th with their book (whenever it may come). Unbalanced army books from the past are really dragging 8th down. Also, I'd like to be able to choose elements for my army without having to tie my hands behind my back in order to keep games friendly.