PDA

View Full Version : Creating a list before purchase of Codex



wilsongrahams
29-04-2012, 06:33
For a long time now I've been thinking of collecting a small self-contained Necron army. Apart from my Blood Angels which are many htousands of points strong, I have recently been buying my armies to 1750pts to suit the games I play in my group. This means that I plan what I want and then buy a fixed list with no swap-outs etc. I don't play to win, but just to use my favourite models.
My grey knights just need two dreadknights to finish them off, and then I was hoping to start my Necrons.

I know EXACTLY what models I WANT. Just no idea whether I can have them all or not in such a list and before even getting the codex I am worried about making compromises. I don't want to end up with extra because I have plenty to paint already (My orks are a slow burner but I want them done for next april) so a self-contained list it is. Once bought, that's it.

Now this is the point I'm making - why do Games Workshop display stats and rules in White Dwarf etc but not points values?

I know what you will say - there will be no need to buy the codex then, but what I really mean is why do they reveal everything BUT the points, when it would be better for most people to know the points and not the rules. Sure some talk can be made about the rules, but the average unit cost would be more useful - obviously add-ons etc would be left to the codex in this case.

This train of thought started when the Codex was put up for advanced order. I wanted models then, but couldn't advance order because I'd need the codex first, before knowing what I can advance order. The boxed sets do not show whether a unit is elite, troops etc or what options you can build into a unit either, meaning that unless you already have a codex you cannot really even buy models to assemble whilst waiting for the codex. I plan to get Lynchguard, Praetorians and a Stalker, yet I had to search army lists on here to find out whether a stalker was elite or heavy. This basic information is the least they can give me.

I know many people are familiar with other armies, but I haven't even looked at any rules for necrons since 2nd edition with the metal models, and I like to plan purchases in advance so that I know I can have everything together in one go - budgeting is a big part of my life with two kids, and getting down to a store is just as hard.

Some very basic information could be included on the boxed set or in the instructions eg: This is an elites choice, one model may have X weapon. The leader may have one of the following Y weapons. Just knowing that there are sparss or that all must be armed the same would help in some cases - where a whole unit has to change from one basic weapon to another for example like Orks Shootas from Sluggas. I use this example because the ork boyz box shows the 11 models assembled with two heavy weapons and a mix of basic weapons - making the unit like this would make it illegal. Many fantasy sets show the front with one option and alternative options on the rear or side boxes etc but showing a complete unit assembles illegally could be frustrating.

So what do others think of this policy in revealing everything but the points? I do understand that tehy cannot change their policy now as in many cases they will then have given everything, but it may have been better from the start to show a basic unit cost (without upgrades) to allow a plan until you can get the codex and the new shiny models together. (especially when the codex is released at the same time as lots of new models).

The Marshel
29-04-2012, 06:57
they display the stats as a marketing thing. People can look at all those numbers and think "whoa, 4 attacks at ws 6? cool" or "furious charge eh, that'd be handy". Point cost don't really have this effect. You can't really get excited about something because it specifically cost 145 points.

as for the issue of having to buy minitures and codex at the same time or at different times, i think you're making mountains out of mole hills tbh. For starters there are many online resources where you can get basic information on units and advice on assembly, not to mention the basic instructions in the GW kits tend to label everything reasonably well. Then you can also talk to people in your own playing group for advice on these things too. GW also maintains open copies of their books which you can read instore.

I'd be very surprised if anyone who regularly plays 40k or fantasy managed to accidentally assemble an illegal unit. Again between playing other people using the armies in question, online resources and just general knowledge gain through taking part in the hobby, small things like all ork boyz having to take the same weapon ought to be common sense. There aren't many overly complicated units in the game when it comes to wargear. If someone is making these mistakes it's their own fualt for charging in head first without stopping to read instructions or do a bit of basic research into their army.

A majority of the problems you've got all come down to the fact that you're looking to build very fixed army list. If this is the case and you don't want to make any unnecessary purchases at all, then you're just going to have to suck it up and buy the codex first. Not everyone has the same approach to army building, so why should GW cater overly specifically to one single approach, particularly when their current model works fine as is.

wilsongrahams
29-04-2012, 07:28
Thanks for the reply. Actually you've said pretty much what I expected you to. However you have said a few things that aren't that easy for me - meeting for a game isn't as regular for me, and getting to a store to look at a codex is again not as easy as you may think - I work 6 days of the week and my most local GW is closed on my day off!

I'm not trying to complain as such, not in the way that I think it's wrong, I just think that it isn't as easy to plan as I have found it in the past before having a family etc when I visited GW every week.

For example, funds become available this week, and I am faced with ordering just the codex, and the army after that, when ideally I'd order it all together and sort the minor upgrades etc after to get to the points needed.

As for the assembly issue - that isn't so big an issue right now, but it has been before - my first point being that instructions don;t tend to show what is an upgrade and what should be on the model to begin with, and no distinction is made between items that have a game effect and those that are for show. You point out that somebody that plays regularly should not have an issue - well I've only recently started playing regularly, and only just converted from 2nd edition 40k - nobody to play until now. As for fantasy I played 3 games over 3 editions until last year. So whilst I now get to play once a month, I see a problem for those that don't, or especially newcomers to the hobby.

Unless plenty is already known about the hobby a newcomer has what is on the box to explain what to do. Maybe it's because I'm o model-driven collector rather than a rule-driven collector, but I see it as important to know what choices I have. You mention doing research beforehand - this is exactly my point, you have to go AWAY FROM GAMES WORKSHOP to other sources to check out your product. This could be partly because I will have to order online and won't be able to sit in the store for ten minutes reading my codex before buying my army. Sucking it up isn't something I think I should HAVE to do even if willing to do so. Other miniatures companies tend to display their stat cards etc for the models or give rules for free. Whilst I don't expect this, some help would be appreciated. Just the FOC slot the unit fits into would have been a great help to me, or even unit sizes - 5-10 or 5-15? How many boxes can I buy? It's really the basics... Back when I started with games workshop, every vehicle model I bought had it's datacard printed as part of the instructions with it's points, options and damage tables etc all available. A model could be bought as a model, built, painted, and then in the future used as a gaming piece without issue if I decided to expand inot an army.

MajorWesJanson
29-04-2012, 11:41
Generally, you can download Army builder and play around with the trial version. only 3 units at a time, and no saving, but it lets you see the equipment and points for the armies.

stroller
29-04-2012, 12:08
The information you - specifically - want - is in the codex. You can even get it delivered to home post free, so that doesn't seem that hard. Personally, the codex is the first thing I buy, so that I can put together the points, the rules, the stats, the fluff and the models.

As an aside, new necron models advance order here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440160a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k

As for which unit is which FOC option, just go to the whole army listing on the website: it's divided by HQ, elite, heavy etc:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/listProducts.jsp?catId=cat700019a

roirin
29-04-2012, 12:15
The trick i use when i m tentatively thinking of collecting something is to look at an army list people post for review. They only put the final points cost of a unit but you can interpolate from that. Its not totally accurate but you generally end +/-100pts. Takes less effort that going to games workshop.

Axeman1n
29-04-2012, 12:21
It's very hard to play an army without access to the books for it.

wilsongrahams
29-04-2012, 14:34
Thanks for all the replies.

I hadn't thought to check the list of kits etc to determine the FOC slot. I was able to check the old white dwarf and I usually look at their example lists just to have a rough idea what I can add - and the plan is usually to end up short to allow some weapon swaps etc.

As for army builder etc, I have already managed to track down what I want and have 750, 1000, 1500, 1750, 2000 and 2500 pt armies made up, all building on the previous one - in fact only scarab swarms get removed so I can game as I paint.

My intention is to order the codex with my first order, so I will not be playing without the book, it was just the fact that I want to order my models at the same time so wanted to plan. Sure I usually buy the codex in advance as I don't usually buy an army all in one go, but I want to have it all bought and assembled and be ready to start painting for when I have a week off work - so that means I'll be assembling them ASAP. I have always bought the codex books for any army I'm interested in, and intend to always do so.

yabbadabba
29-04-2012, 14:42
Sounds like a flaw in your planning, not in GWs approach to marketing. There is no need for GW to print points, it serves no purpose other than to provide people with less reasons to buy the codex.

wilsongrahams
29-04-2012, 15:14
Well it is obviously a flaw with the way the system works now. I did ask however, if the policy should always have been to keep the rules, upgrades, weapon stats etc in the codex books and give the flat points of the unit. It may be too late to revert to a different method now, though the other option is to release the codex before the new kits like they used to in 2nd edition. I know the hobby has changed in the past 15 years or so, but back then everyone had a codex book and the cards etc needed, and photocopying or getting copies online illegally just didn't happen. And yes the internet did exist back then lol.

yabbadabba
29-04-2012, 15:23
Well it is obviously a flaw with the way the system works now. What do you mean here?

I did ask however, if the policy should always have been to keep the rules, upgrades, weapon stats etc in the codex books and give the flat points of the unit. It may be too late to revert to a different method now,GW have had several policies on this over the years. The current one has pretty much been the most consistent.

though the other option is to release the codex before the new kits like they used to in 2nd edition. The last I time I checked doing a combined release (codex+models) was a greater money earner than codex, then models. So unless that has changed because of that technique, there is no need to change it.

I know the hobby has changed in the past 15 years or so, but back then everyone had a codex book and the cards etc needed, and photocopying or getting copies online illegally just didn't happen. And yes the internet did exist back then lol. And? Its still pretty much the same now for some people. The difference between "then" and now is that there are so many more people playing GW stuff that you are going to come across a much wider diversity of people rather than the dominant uber-geek of 15-20 years ago.

I still can't see the justification for your idea, other than to either sidestep the codex or because your timescale is unrealistic.

stroller
29-04-2012, 15:50
Well it is obviously a flaw with the way the system works now.
I wonder if we're singing from the same hymn sheet here - possibly not. The system works fine. It doesn't work for you today for the way you want it to work, but, to be honest, I don't see how you plan properly without buying the codex first. Even if you know what models you want, if you want to play the army, you still need the codex for points, special rules, upgrades and so on. If you decide you want to field 1 lord 2 warrior squads 3 barges and a partridge in a pear tree, because you like those models, the points limits seem irrelevant anyway.

I did ask however, if the policy should always have been to keep the rules, upgrades, weapon stats etc in the codex books and give the flat points of the unit. It may be too late to revert to a different method now,

as above, unless you specifically want to do this your way, why would you want to?

though the other option is to release the codex before the new kits like they used to in 2nd edition.
And when they do that they get in the the neck because there's a codex entry and no models.....

I know the hobby has changed in the past 15 years or so, but back then everyone had a codex book and the cards etc needed, and photocopying or getting copies online illegally just didn't happen. And yes the internet did exist back then lol.
It did happen back then. It wasn't quite as easy to do, mind.

The codex is the planner's friend. It seems mad to me to plan without it. When all's said and done though, it's your hobby. Enjoy it your way, and I'll enjoy it in mine. Have fun!

ctsteel
29-04-2012, 22:40
The white dwarf example lists can be useful as you've already mentioned. Aside from that your best compromise is to order the codex plus just the obvious models you know you want/need (eg HQ and troop boxes) which gives you the ability to get your assembly process under way at the same time as refining the extras in your fixed list and placing a second order for that part. And by the time it arrives you'll have just finished assembling the mandatory units you already have so this may in fact prove more efficient (if less satisfying marginally compared to receiving all your toys at once :) )

Charistoph
30-04-2012, 21:17
Well it is obviously a flaw with the way the system works now. I did ask however, if the policy should always have been to keep the rules, upgrades, weapon stats etc in the codex books and give the flat points of the unit. It may be too late to revert to a different method now, though the other option is to release the codex before the new kits like they used to in 2nd edition. I know the hobby has changed in the past 15 years or so, but back then everyone had a codex book and the cards etc needed, and photocopying or getting copies online illegally just didn't happen. And yes the internet did exist back then lol.

While this would work for Necrons, who have very few upgrades (if any) for most of their models, let's take a look at Space Wolves Wolf Guard. The number of upgrades accessible to them makes knowing their base cost completely useless for creating a base list. And that's something used in most of that codecies' lists.

Beppo1234
01-05-2012, 01:13
The white dwarf example lists can be useful as you've already mentioned. Aside from that your best compromise is to order the codex plus just the obvious models you know you want/need (eg HQ and troop boxes) which gives you the ability to get your assembly process under way at the same time as refining the extras in your fixed list and placing a second order for that part. And by the time it arrives you'll have just finished assembling the mandatory units you already have so this may in fact prove more efficient (if less satisfying marginally compared to receiving all your toys at once :) )

this is what I'm doing now... working on CSMs finished a whole slew of terminators, and am 3 minis away from finishing my basic CSM troop entries. Then shelving until the book comes out. This way I'm not stuck doing the minis that are less exciting to paint when the release comes, and can concentrate on the fun stuff, as well as sorting out my painting method for the more eye catching pieces.