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View Full Version : why would you ever use a vanquisher cannon?



cptsoban
30-04-2012, 18:18
I keep thinking I'm misreading the rules but a vanquisher on a leman russ doesn't make any sense to me.

Same range adn strength as a regular battle cannon. It's AP2 instead of AP3 but no template! It says it gets and extra D6 for armour penetration but doesnt all ordanance roll 2d6 for armour pen?

Formerly Wu
30-04-2012, 18:20
Ordnance rolls 2d6, then takes the highest. The Vanquisher cannon adds them together.

That said, a one-shot BS3 gun on an expensive platform isn't a great deal anyway, so the question still stands.

agurus1
30-04-2012, 19:11
only take a vanquisher in an armoured company list, where you can stick it on a BS4 Command Tank, with a co-axial heavy stubber for re-rolls under 36"

or just take Pask in a Codex IG list lol

honestly whenever I HAVE used one, I haven't regretted it, I just find two bare bones LRBT w/ Lascannon to be so much more "all comers"

Lothlanathorian
30-04-2012, 19:13
Also, the blast only does full damage to the tank when if the center is over part of the hull, so, you have the same chances of actually hitting, only, with the Vanquisher, you might actually have a better chance of killing a vehicle.

Jericho
30-04-2012, 19:18
I think most people would tell you that there are better tank hunters in the IG list than any of the options discussed here (mass melta, lots of multilasers for light tanks, Vendettas for triple lascannons, etc.).

The point remains though, 2d6 added together is a lot nicer than 2d6 pick the highest when cracking tanks. Whether it's worth limiting the versatility of the tank that much is up to you :p

xxRavenxx
30-04-2012, 19:55
The obvious answer to why you'd use one:

Because its cool.


If you're more concerned over rules, or prefer a different gun, the vanquisher isn't for you. :)

Bunnahabhain
30-04-2012, 20:05
For fluff, and because it looks right.

Under the current codex rules, there is no point to it whatsoever. The FW lists do it much better.

Frankly, if it going to remain AT only, it should be something like S10, AP1, ordnance, with a generic option for BS4 as a command/veteran tank at a sane price.
If it could have a split profile, something like.... S6 Ap4 ordnance, blast or S8 Ap1, 2d6 pen.

scopedog91
30-04-2012, 20:19
Why?
Because some of the locals here play a 3 Falcon, 2 Waveserpent setup.
That, and it just looks cool.
Pask is fun for the "he adds what to the damage?" look on people's faces...

agurus1
30-04-2012, 20:28
lol Pask + Vanquisher w/ lascannon is fun

every so often you will just have some of those priceless long range shots, like when my Vanquisher popped Abaddon's Land Raider ride from inside a building across the board. priceless. add camo-netting for additional lol's

ehlijen
01-05-2012, 01:14
The Vanquisher isn't the nasty tank hunter. It's the tough tank hunter. There are a lot of ways to kill tanks better, even at range (Vendettas, Medusas, Manticores), but none of them are AV14.

The Vanquisher is what you send out to hunt hammerheads because everything else is more vulnerable to vehicle railguns. If that's not a niche you need filled in your list, don't take it. But it's not worthless; it is one of the cheapest russes for a reason though.

Getz
01-05-2012, 21:37
It used to be awesome, now it's just meh. In my experience Vanquishers work well enough, but there are better ways of killing armour.

That said, ehlijen's point about it being tough is well made. If you're facing a lot of firepower that's looking to kill your own anti-tank (another Guard army perhaps, or shooty Marines or Tau) then having a good, long ranged anti-tank gun behind AV 14 is nothing to be sniffed at.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-05-2012, 22:06
There's some real gaps in efficiency in the various Leman Russ designs. The basic Leman Russ has almost the firepower of a Basilisk for +25 points. Okay, I would totally pay 25 points for the chassis. The Exterminator has almost the firepower of a hydra, for +75 points. Huh? The Vanquisher is paying a premium more like the Exterminator by most reasonable estimates (albeit rather more difficult to estimate!). If it simply had AP1, it would be much more reasonable, IMO, as it could be compared to devildogs and medusae. Right now it's more like a Vendetta that's had one set of lascannons blown off, or maybe a lascannon HWT. So, about 105 points, while the Vanquisher with a lascannon upgrade (seriously it should just come with that) puts the premium too high for my taste.

agurus1
02-05-2012, 00:48
my thing is that I always saw vanquishers as the rarest of LRBT varients (as Imperial Armour 1 confirms) and always thought it would be reserved for command or veteran crews (ie: BS 4). Honestly if there was a IG vehicle upgrade to make a tank BS 4 it would be so much better (like how Tau have). Call it Veteran Crew or something.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-05-2012, 02:03
I believe the upgrade is called "Pask".

MajorWesJanson
02-05-2012, 03:03
Vanquishers are best used against heavier armored targets with Pask. BS4, and 2D6 pen means an average roll is 15, so enough to pen heavy armor. Meltas do more damage, but have to get closer, Manticores can scatter the hole off the target, and Las cannon vendettas do better against most armor, but the few that are 14 on sides and back, are less likely to pen.


It's a situational tank though, so doesn't show up much.

FashaTheDog
02-05-2012, 04:06
Because you bought the below turret on an impulse and it will be a sane day in the Eye of Terror before you don't use it.

139351

LegioDestructor
02-05-2012, 12:29
Because its cool. If you're more concerned over rules, or prefer a different gun, the vanquisher isn't for you.QFT!

As several have mentioned, it's s8+2D6 with AV14. What they haven't mentioned is range. Having an anti-tank weapon is one thing, being able to use it effectively as an anti-tank weapon is another. Powerfists and Melta is fine, but you risk danger just getting into range with them. A bad Deep Strike roll or an Immobilized transport means that unit you tooled-up to punch armour isn't even going to make it there. Counterattacks and vehicle explosions have also claimed many close-ranged AT units.

Lascannons are great, and they are fairly ubiquitous in any Imperial force. But there are many other weapons with high-Strength and a 48" range, which means when you can hit them, they can hit you. A Bs3 Vanquisher Cannon may mean you're only hitting about half the time, but each hit is made without fear of retributive firepower coming from a Predator, Fire Prism, or Hammerhead. Stand-off is an underplayed consideration. Of course, if you're always playing on 4'x4' tables, then range is all but meaningless. Tankers aren't meant for point-blank firefights.

Interestingly the Tank Hunter, the only vehicle similar to a Vanquisher in role, is 5pts more than a bare-bones Vanq. The Laser Destroyer is s10, but it's also the only weapon the vehicle has. So the Vanquisher may be pricey, but you're paying for versatility and a much greater battlefield capability.

greenmtvince
02-05-2012, 12:43
It used to be awesome, now it's just meh.

This.

Back in the 3rd Edition Codex or 4th Edition Imperial Armour I seem to recall the AT round being optional, meaning you could fire a normal battle cannon round to clear out infantry OR fire an AT round to pop tanks. As a bonus, the AT round was ordnance so you could roll on the Ordnance Pen chart (the three seperate charts should never have gone away) giving a pen a 50/50 shot at a Vehicle Destroyed result.

No idea why this tank got the nerf bat, but they made the Valkyrie OTT in the 5th Edition codex. It was a longtime favorite for me.

Edit: I have some ideas why, but none of them have to do with game balance and fun.

Konovalev
02-05-2012, 14:05
Because you bought the below turret on an impulse and it will be a sane day in the Eye of Terror before you don't use it.

139351

Exactly this! Better still when forgeworld loses your order and ships you another one, only to have the original eventually arrive as well.

Nurgling Chieftain
02-05-2012, 14:30
But there are many other weapons with high-Strength and a 48" range, which means when you can hit them, they can hit you. A Bs3 Vanquisher Cannon may mean you're only hitting about half the time, but each hit is made without fear of retributive firepower coming from a Predator, Fire Prism, or Hammerhead. Stand-off is an underplayed consideration. Of course, if you're always playing on 4'x4' tables, then range is all but meaningless.What kind of tables are you playing on? 6x4 is standard and renders virtually all ranges above 48" nearly irrelevant (though IMO that's a LOT different from claiming that "range is all but meaningless"). Certainly you're not going to meaningfully outrange fireprisms or hammerheads.

Sgt John Keel
02-05-2012, 15:05
Vanquishers are best used against heavier armored targets with Pask. BS4, and 2D6 pen means an average roll is 15, so enough to pen heavy armor.

Wouldn't that be 16 with his pseudo–Tank Hunters?

Luckily, I don't like the Vanquisher miniature so it is no great loss to me. I much prefer the Exterminator, which, while not spectacular, is still fairly usable.

Bunnahabhain
02-05-2012, 15:50
What kind of tables are you playing on? 6x4 is standard and renders virtually all ranges above 48" nearly irrelevant (though IMO that's a LOT different from claiming that "range is all but meaningless"). Certainly you're not going to meaningfully outrange fireprisms or hammerheads.

Agreed.

Also, with regards to range, look at the heavy AT at decent range competition:

Vendettas- 48" + faster movement+ scout/outflank

Manticore- 120" range and indirect fire too over 24"

The 72" range vanquisher-(but limited to 48" if you want to bring the hull lascannon into play) really doesn't stand out as that impressive.

MyNameDidntFit
02-05-2012, 17:23
Personally, I take a Pask Vanquisher fairly often. Now, this is in part just because I love the idea of the dedicated tank hunting tank, but it's also in part knowing that 2/3 turns, I'm going to penetrate a vehicle, no matter what it is and, the dice gods willing, kill a good few of those. It works and it works well--especially for those nasty things that have anti-infantry weapons on them, cutting out the chances of melta/p'fist/etc getting in there.

Oh, and it's always great when you out-shoot a Hammerhead... even if the Hammerhead can get a 4+ cover for 5 points.

LegioDestructor
02-05-2012, 20:35
What kind of tables are you playing on? 6x4 is standard and renders virtually all ranges above 48" nearly irrelevant (though IMO that's a LOT different from claiming that "range is all but meaningless").True, everything usually ends up within range of heavy weapons by Turn 2 on a "standard" table, but that's something I always disliked about them. I preferred 8x4 and correspondingly larger games, so the longer range was more relevant and you could actually move in a direction other than 'vaguely towards the enemy'.

The OP asked why you'd take a Vanquisher, and the only real advantages I can see is the longer range, AV14, and the fact that is has hull and sponson weapon options. Even if you lose the turret gun, appropriate weapons turn your tank into a siege engine, or a mobile pillbox. Other than that, the options several of you have mentioned are indeed statistically better at the job. The Manticore and Vendetta are very good, but not good enough for me to use as a dedicated tank buster. Mostly because they are not the IG's go-to tank killing tank, that is the role of the Vanquisher and Laser Tank Destroyer.


Certainly you're not going to meaningfully outrange fireprisms or hammerheads.Sometimes it happens, and when it does it's truly satisfying!

So I guess, I'd say use the Vanquisher if you really like tanks, and/or you want a dedicated long-ranged sniping unit mounted on a solid Av14 chassis with decent secondary weapon options. If you just want general AT, others have mentioned the brilliant alternatives.

BrotherCaptainS
02-05-2012, 20:45
Best way to use a vanquisher in my opinion is as follows:

leman russ vanquisher: Pask, w/ lascannon & multi melta sponsons

really heavy on points yes i know, but insanely effective against mech armies that like to assault. At range you have main gun and lascannon. How often is lascannon not in range? they hit 24" and the MMs take effect if they are lucky enough to hit 12" the vehicle dies every time. that is how I use it. Now it also doubles as a paladin instant death machine. They really hate this tank.

stereynolds
02-05-2012, 21:13
To kill a Land Raider Achilles? No other way in the Guard dex of realistically dealing with it other than demolishers/whatever the ordinance tank with S10 bunker buster shells is called.

Eldoriath
02-05-2012, 21:26
What is this nonsense about out-ranging an hammerhead? If anything it is the other way around when it comes to getting the first shot since it does have a 12" move as well as 72" range.

Also don't forget the medusa with bastion breacher shells is very effective. S10 AP1 and 2d6 penetration. Important part being AP1. Sure, it is a small blast and has a harder time of hitting, but it also adds a bit of versatility.

So, only reason for me to take the vanquisher is if I want a sturdy AT vehicle, but at the cost of 1˝ medusa (2 if you take Pask) I'm not so certain about taking it in a standard list. But then of course, I regularly play with Pask in a Punisher because it's so much fun throwing 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots at BS4 on a unit when stationary ^^

Getz
02-05-2012, 22:27
I'm afraid bastion breacher shells are only AP 2

ehlijen
02-05-2012, 22:32
I'm afraid bastion breacher shells are only AP 2

Did they change that in an FAQ? My codex says AP1 (though the normal shells are AP2).

Nurgling Chieftain
02-05-2012, 22:44
Nah, Getz is just wrong. They're AP1.

LegioDestructor
02-05-2012, 23:00
leman russ vanquisher: Pask, w/ lascannon & multi melta sponsonsThat's how I kitted out my Armoured Battlegroup HQ. Already Bs4 it doesn't need to be Paskified, throw in a Hunter Killer and Dozer Blade for good measure.

What is this nonsense about out-ranging a hammerhead?Whoops! My mistake.

The Bastion Breacher shells are formidable, but are still a blast weapon and the same range as a Lascannon. The thing about the Medusa, and same goes for the Manticore, is armour. The Vanquisher can go head to head against other Russes or Land Raiders and, rarely I admit, use it's range to simply outperform it's opponents. Aside from the Tank Destroyer, which utterly lacks the versatility of the MBT's options, the next step up from the Vanquisher in AT firepower is in superheavy territory.

Bunnahabhain
02-05-2012, 23:14
The Manticore is fairly tough. AV12, closed top, and doesn't need LOS. AV:14 is better than AV:12, certainly, but AV:Bloody big hill is better still, and effectively ignored by fewer things, I think.

I've tried them time and time again, and have had only two times when their performance has stuck in my head. The rest of the time they've been entirely unmemorable..

1) A BS3 one hitting the same tank hunting marine dreadnaught three times in a row at long range, and rolling a 10 or 11 to penetrate each time.

2) Using a Macharius Vanquisher, house ruled. Between having 2 shots, a decent BS, the turret being a little higher so ignoring more cover, and not being shut down by shaken/stunned, the thing actually worked as the background suggests.

Awilla the Hun
02-05-2012, 23:51
The best mine ever achieved was killing a Defiler in one shot, under the command of Captain Ashingby Liddell-Hart. A glorious day for the ESR.

Col. von Dryden
03-05-2012, 01:51
Oh how I miss they days when it had *gasp* AP and AT rounds.... If only it were AP1 now it might be worth it (or better yet, a non-pask BS4 available...) God I miss my armored company.

tu33y
03-05-2012, 08:19
destroyer tank hunter with "Slick Loader". twenty points more, infinate range, S10, fires twice if stationary (or pay 160 and don't get the fire twice)

id rather have that than a vanquisher- even a BS 4 one.

Commotionpotion
03-05-2012, 11:12
The Vanquisher used to be mighty indeed - battlecannon with standard and AT shells at a 96" range.

Now it's...less than impressive, except when used in an Armoured Battlegroup, as a command or commissar tank with a heavy stubber bolted to it.

It does have some mobility, especially if you've only given it a hull weapon and heavy stubber. Apart from that, it's only other plus is that its a weapon that rolls 2D6 + strength for armour busting, but is not counted as a Melta weapon, hence its utility in breaking open things with Ferromantic Inv/Ceramite Armour etc.

MyNameDidntFit
03-05-2012, 13:04
What is this nonsense about out-ranging an hammerhead? If anything it is the other way around when it comes to getting the first shot since it does have a 12" move as well as 72" range.

Also don't forget the medusa with bastion breacher shells is very effective. S10 AP1 and 2d6 penetration. Important part being AP1. Sure, it is a small blast and has a harder time of hitting, but it also adds a bit of versatility.

So, only reason for me to take the vanquisher is if I want a sturdy AT vehicle, but at the cost of 1˝ medusa (2 if you take Pask) I'm not so certain about taking it in a standard list. But then of course, I regularly play with Pask in a Punisher because it's so much fun throwing 29 S5 and 3 S4 shots at BS4 on a unit when stationary ^^
If you mean my post, I said 'out-shoot' referring the 4's to glance from the Hammerhead on 1d6 and the 5 to glance from the Vanq. on 2d6.

As for Medusas, I find their defining detriment is the fact that they can't shoot until they've been in range of a lascannon, autocannon or equivalent (48") AT/transport busting weapon for 12". Being that they're AV12 and can't move and shoot, it's very hard to do anything meaningful with them against a reasonably intelligent enemy. Other than the psych-warfare of making your enemy focus fire on your really cheap tanks rather than your expensive other stuff.

ColShaw
03-05-2012, 13:10
Why would you ever use a Vanquisher? Well, suppose you've got a really bad itch on your back... the normal-length Battlecannon just isn't long enough for those hard-to-reach spots.

Vanquisher: backscratcher (and headscratcher) of the Imperial Guard.

ehlijen
03-05-2012, 14:07
As for Medusas, I find their defining detriment is the fact that they can't shoot until they've been in range of a lascannon, autocannon or equivalent (48") AT/transport busting weapon for 12". Being that they're AV12 and can't move and shoot, it's very hard to do anything meaningful with them against a reasonably intelligent enemy.

Two things:
-Medusas have access to an alternate weapon profile that matches Lascannon and Autocannon in range.
-Meduses can move and shoot just fine. Are you thinking of the 3rd ed Ordnance rules?

MyNameDidntFit
03-05-2012, 14:18
The alternate profile negates the AP1 that is perhaps their biggest bonus over something like a Vanq.

It does seem like I might be thinking of the rules wrong for ordinance--it's been a long long time since I ran any in my Guard. I thought ordinance could not shoot if you moved? Or is it that you can't fire defensive weapons if you fire ordinance when moving? If I am indeed wrong, then my opinion of Medusas just improved greatly.

Bunnahabhain
03-05-2012, 14:47
The alternate profile negates the AP1 that is perhaps their biggest bonus over something like a Vanq.

It does seem like I might be thinking of the rules wrong for ordinance--it's been a long long time since I ran any in my Guard. I thought ordinance could not shoot if you moved? Or is it that you can't fire defensive weapons if you fire ordinance when moving? If I am indeed wrong, then my opinion of Medusas just improved greatly.
Yes, you and others are indeed wrong.

From the freely available from GW IG reference sheet, so I can repeat it here for the avoidance of doubt.
Profile 1. 36", S10, Ap2, large blast, Ordnance

Profile 2 48" S10, AP1, small blast, 2d6 added together

There are NO restrictions on moving and firing normal(i.e. not barrage) ordnance weapons over and above a normal weapon of their strength.
You may not fire ordnance and any other weapon, unless you have a special rule, which Russes do, but the vanquisher cannon isn't ordnance anyway...

MyNameDidntFit
03-05-2012, 17:03
Huh. I had Medusas entirely backwards in my head. Goes to show how often I even think about artillery batteries beyond my darling Griffons.

Well, you learn something new every day.

Getz
03-05-2012, 22:10
Nah, Getz is just wrong. They're AP1.

Sorry, my bad - could have sworn they were AP2...