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Blkc57
01-05-2012, 08:42
If one was using just blocks of infantry with cavalry support and no other shooting besides a single cannon, what do most consider to be the best Magic lore to synergise with the new 8th edition Empire book? I ask because I'm interested in building an army around a lore but I wanted to see if many people consider one or two lores the most cooperative with the Empire state troop. In the past people were telling me shadow and life were the top line choices, reading the new book they don't seem as useful as most say, but maybe I just don't see how they operate in a pure state troop filled army.

theshoveller
01-05-2012, 08:55
Shadow and Life are always handy, but Shadow is less effective if you know you're going to face Skaven regularly. Life needs a level 4 to get the most out of it (i.e. to use Throne of Vines well).

Specific Empire choices though: Light always goes down well. Speed of Light is a good all rounder, Birona's Time Warp against certain armies is devastating. The other spells are reasonably killy in themselves. Beasts is a good choice if you plan around it (remember the lore attribute for use on cavalry, but remember that many spells are short ranged) as it cures state troops of their main weakness - being squishy and lacking killing power. The advantage of Beasts is that you can just keep casting Wyssan's Wildform as long as you have power dice (because all your wizards can theoretically have it).

Lord Solar Plexus
01-05-2012, 09:11
I'm heavily in favour of Light, Life, Death, Shadow, Metal, Fire, Beasts, with Heaven a close second. ;)

Really, there is no bad lore. WS10/I10 or Birona's is cool. +2/+4T and regrowth is cool. Character assassination or -3 Ld is excellent. +2AS and various hexes are nifty. Flaming shooting or +1 to hit is the ideal complement for a list low on shooting, and Wyssan's is a lot of fun.

DivineVisitor
01-05-2012, 17:51
Im all for Shadow or Light. I have alot of experience with Shadow and a well timed Withering or Enfeebling Foe can be devastating. Though i suspect the AOE Birona's Timewarp or Speed of Light would prove just as nasty.

danny-d-b
01-05-2012, 18:37
another vote for shaddow or light- cos both bring a bit of killing power, as well as the buffs to increase our state troops

beasts is a more of a support mage rather than a level 4, but I suppose if you were going down the griff route

mistrmoon
01-05-2012, 18:38
I'm a huge proponent of death. Purple sun is amazing, soulblight bight be the best hex in the game, 3 character assassination spells and the lore atribute as well? yes please.

Askari
01-05-2012, 18:51
Light and Shadow are my go-to magic lores. Light covers the army's weaknesses, Shadow gives the enemy additional weaknesses.

If I'm bored of them, I like using Metal (Final Transmutation is a seriously underrated spell) and Beasts (try Savage Beast of Horros on a Runefang Grand Master, or a Griffon general). The only lore I haven't used is Heavens, which I may consider with an all-cavalry list.

Jericho
01-05-2012, 18:56
You can make a case for all of the main 8 lores, especially when you consider the different ways you can build Empire armies.

Light
Some decent (flaming) damage spells and bonuses vs. Undead/Demons is nice. Some very nice buffs to make your mediocre stats much, much better. I always liked Light quite a bit.

Shadow
Some very nice debuffs to make the enemy troops suck even worse than the average human. Lore attribute can occasionally be handy to reposition characters.

Life
Great for supporting expensive low model count units (Steam Tank, heavy cav, Demigryphs) and can make your infantry last much, much longer. Great lore if you like to go Deathstar + monsters/altar variant support units. Without Loremaster, this lore can screw you sometimes with bad spell selection rolls.

Death
Short ranged but excellent damage spells, character snipe, and a great hex to make enemies easier to squish. As a bonus, you can get lucky and generate some bonus PD to fuel prayers etc. as well.

Metal
Absolutely brilliant against the right opponent. If you are considering taking it, Balthasar is a good bet as he brings Loremaster and +6 to cast. Against some armies this lore is not gonna be a huge benefit, but the area of effect armor save bonus is sweet for infantry spam.

Beasts
Tough to build a strategy around this lore, but Wildform is a great bloody spell and almost makes it worthwhile just to give +1S and +1T to a unit. If you go naked character spam, this lore can be handy as well for buffing their stats via Savage Beast of Horros / Pan's Impenetrable Pelt. Good lore, but one of those ones where you really wish you could pick spells/get Loremaster because not all spells are helpful.

Fire
Not a bad choice if you want a support caster... not a great choice for a L4 tho.

Heavens
Smattering of hexes/augments can be handy for sure. Hard to break a game wide open with a single spell from Heavens, but lots of little buffs to help you out along the way. Comet can help herd the opponent in the direction you want them to go. The buffs/augments are best if you take an elite army where variance in dice rolls can make or break you.

Jericho
01-05-2012, 19:02
Light and Shadow are my go-to magic lores. Light covers the army's weaknesses, Shadow gives the enemy additional weaknesses.

If I'm bored of them, I like using Metal (Final Transmutation is a seriously underrated spell) and Beasts (try Savage Beast of Horros on a Runefang Grand Master, or a Griffon general). The only lore I haven't used is Heavens, which I may consider with an all-cavalry list.

Heavens in an all-cav list is something I forgot to mention. Re-rolling 1's with lances and 1+ saves is suddenly pretty sweet.

decker_cky
02-05-2012, 13:52
I just realized that you can put Balthasar Gelt in a unit of demigryph knights and he'll get a look out sir.

Tuttivillus
02-05-2012, 14:52
Heavens in an all-cav list is something I forgot to mention. Re-rolling 1's with lances and 1+ saves is suddenly pretty sweet.

Don't forget enemy's reroll on 6's :D Farewell killing blow!!


I just realized that you can put Balthasar Gelt in a unit of demigryph knights and he'll get a look out sir.

And will grant them some Magic Resistance for some time!

Askari
02-05-2012, 14:57
And will grant them some Magic Resistance for some time!

Buy them a command group and he'll be safe in the rear rank!

decker_cky
02-05-2012, 20:13
Buy them a command group and he'll be safe in the rear rank!

He has to sit on the side of the unit because he doesn't have a compatible base size.

Spiney Norman
02-05-2012, 21:07
I just had a brilliant game with the lore of heavens, for some reason the signature always seems to perform loads better than I think it should, and three str 6 damage spells actually makes the lore great at dishing out high level damage on armoured or high toughness units.


I just realized that you can put Balthasar Gelt in a unit of demigryph knights and he'll get a look out sir.

Only if you a fielding your Demi-gryphs in units of 5+, which I would never do because a second rank is such a waste of attacks.

It's worth noting that any wizard (or indeed any other character) mounted on a Pegasus gets the same privilege.

Sexiest_hero
02-05-2012, 21:13
Lore of metal rocks. Why waste time with Mournfangs when I can just melt them!

Jericho
03-05-2012, 16:05
Yeah I've heard lots of folks saying you can't have a Pegasus join a unit... but the rules clearly forbid joining a unit of flyers, not a flying character joining a unit.

As for making the theme work, I think if you converted up a captain or similar to ride the Island of Blood griffon you could get away with calling it a "baby griffon" and using Pegasus stats. At the end of the day, it still requires 5 Demigryphs and is a huge points sink, but it can be done :p

GodlessM
04-05-2012, 00:29
Lore of metal rocks. Why waste time with Mournfangs when I can just melt them!

Why waste time with a lore that's only useful against a small handful of armies?

As for the thread, I'm still stuck on Life as it has been making the Stank pretty unkillable, though I really need to push myself to use Light instead as I think it is now a better fit for Empire. We need something to deal with Daemons afterall, and the non-damage spells all synergise well with our troops, be it offensively (Timewarp), defensively (Pha's, Speed), annoyingly (Net), or just for some reliability in a weak area (Light).

Sexiest_hero
04-05-2012, 02:02
metal has a lot of useful buffs and debuffs, and the final spell is tops.

Jerry
04-05-2012, 05:27
Life is the best!
Of course there isn't really a best or worst it's all about how you build your army. I take life because it makes my big blocks more durable and also low to cast spells allow me to still use all my bound WP spells. Life also has throne of vines which is IMO the best spell because it gives you a 2+ ignore miscast and remains in play which means your opponent has to spend his DD or PD in subsequent phases to dispel it.

Sexiest_hero
04-05-2012, 07:37
Life has spells That become crutches, and magic is very undependable. I've clubbed Many a foe who wandered close and Hoped to 6 dice a flesh to stone, or dwellers. People are less sure what spells to counter. With metal I've cackled whole tossing around a GUO with a 2+ armorsave or using the 6th spell to ruin one unit while Ld bomb make the rest of their army stumble towards the fools gold. Empire can fit in a lvl 4 and 2 easy peasy. You can try to toss out Flesh to Stone, But then you Just trying to do something other armies do a lot better.

Askari
04-05-2012, 07:54
Life does seem a little crutch-like to me also, but it also has some pretty "meh" spells. The Signature spell isn't amazing, and if you don't roll Throne of Vines then the entire lore becomes a bit meh also, even if you do, smart players will just dispel it, as it doesn't do anything on it's own and costs power dice to re-cast every magic phase. Awakening of the Wood and Shield of Thorns aren't particularly great either, especially without the Throne of Vines up. I don't know, I feel you're far too prone to a rubbish spell roll with Life, even with a Level 4 if you roll 1,3,4,5 you're left with a lore that's going to be lacking. Of course you need to consider other things as well, like if you're using a Steam Tank, but it's something to keep in mind.

Not a problem with Light, as every spell (Light of Battle is a little situational, but there's a great signature to swap it for) is great.

Sexiest_hero
04-05-2012, 10:04
Life does revolve around getting thrones Flesh and Dwellers off. Dispell scroll thrones and dispel Flesh,then Toss all your dd dice at throne and Hex/feedback Flesh. What I don't like about life is that it tricks Armies not built for cc into thinking they are good at it. It works for bloodletters and ASF swordmasters as they are already awesome. One bad winds roll, casting roll or good Dispel roll and you are handing over the game. Dwellers is a toss 6 die and hope for the best against a low str army. Empire doesn't have the Dice generation of high elves, Lizardmen, or daemons to push through more than 2 spells a turn.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-05-2012, 10:24
I disagree. That sequence might be the popular one online but it's far too narrow a view to think it's the only possibility. Even 5+ Regen is pretty cool against shooty armies. +2 T on 5-6 point models is already very good, especially when you can raise some back. Some think that healing 6 point models is not worth it but that holds no water. The price is completely irrelevant as long as it means you're not losing that unit's points or when you're suddenly winning an attrition fight you would have won without.

GodlessM
04-05-2012, 14:27
I disagree. That sequence might be the popular one online but it's far too narrow a view to think it's the only possibility. Even 5+ Regen is pretty cool against shooty armies. +2 T on 5-6 point models is already very good, especially when you can raise some back. Some think that healing 6 point models is not worth it but that holds no water. The price is completely irrelevant as long as it means you're not losing that unit's points or when you're suddenly winning an attrition fight you would have won without.

All of this is spot on. All this talk that the lore has some crap spells and needs Throne to work is pants. Throne helps (and Askari, exactly has is negating a miscast on a 2+ not doing anything on its own?), but it isn't necessary. Thrones necessity comes for Dwellers only, as you risk blowing yourself off, but truth is I've seen too many people lose because they concentrated too much magic on Dweller-hammer that I don't use it unless I have nothing else to do. +2T is great for anything, getting wounds back is amasing (especially for single models like the Stank), Shield helps deter Wraiths and the like and helps kill squishy elves faster (on top of the normal benefits of RiP), regen. is nothing to turn one's nose up at, and magic missiles are always handy for clearing chaff.

Askari
04-05-2012, 15:38
All of this is spot on. All this talk that the lore has some crap spells and needs Throne to work is pants. Throne helps (and Askari, exactly has is negating a miscast on a 2+ not doing anything on its own?), but it isn't necessary. Thrones necessity comes for Dwellers only, as you risk blowing yourself off, but truth is I've seen too many people lose because they concentrated too much magic on Dweller-hammer that I don't use it unless I have nothing else to do. +2T is great for anything, getting wounds back is amasing (especially for single models like the Stank), Shield helps deter Wraiths and the like and helps kill squishy elves faster (on top of the normal benefits of RiP), regen. is nothing to turn one's nose up at, and magic missiles are always handy for clearing chaff.

Firstly Life has no magic missiles. What I said was what happens if you don't roll Flesh to Stone and (in your case, as you're not fond of Dwellers) Throne of Vines. You get a bunch of more mediocre spells and you'd have been better off taking a lore where if you take 4 spells you're guaranteed some fantastic ones, Beasts is another lore with the same problem, but at least the signature is fantastic. Shadow and Light come to mind as lores where you can't go wrong.

Considering you consider Metal only useful vs. certain opponents, when only 2 of the spells are specialised to killing high armour (and even then, one is a signature which you'll swap no.4 out for, so you're only ever going to have one of the two), the others are useful against most enemies, I wonder why you don't consider that a Lore can be less useful if you don't roll the spells you want.

I already said that the Lore of Life does become more attractive if you use a Steam Tank, so that rebuttal I've already covered too.

Jericho
04-05-2012, 15:49
Why waste time with a lore that's only useful against a small handful of armies?

As for the thread, I'm still stuck on Life as it has been making the Stank pretty unkillable, though I really need to push myself to use Light instead as I think it is now a better fit for Empire. We need something to deal with Daemons afterall, and the non-damage spells all synergise well with our troops, be it offensively (Timewarp), defensively (Pha's, Speed), annoyingly (Net), or just for some reliability in a weak area (Light).

Life is indeed super handy for healing Stanks, Popemobiles and Wizardmobiles. Keeping your troops alive is almost a bonus at that point :p

Seriously though, Metal does have fairly universal spells in that they have a "nuke" #6 spell and some decent hex/augments. The damage spells are a bit situational, as many folks take the Dragonbane Gem/Dragonhelm, but Metal really does have devastating potential at times. And the ability to get 2+ save greatswords, 3+/6++ swordsmen, etc. is pretty awesome. +2 armor saves boosted to cast as an aoe is a giant pain in the ass for your opponent to deal with, and really works nicely for Empire style lists with support units and detachments, whereas Life is way more about building a Deathstar.

GodlessM
04-05-2012, 17:32
Life does seem a little crutch-like to me also, but it also has some pretty "meh" spells. The Signature spell isn't amazing, and if you don't roll Throne of Vines then the entire lore becomes a bit meh also, even if you do, smart players will just dispel it, as it doesn't do anything on it's own and costs power dice to re-cast every magic phase. Awakening of the Wood and Shield of Thorns aren't particularly great either, especially without the Throne of Vines up. I don't know, I feel you're far too prone to a rubbish spell roll with Life, even with a Level 4 if you roll 1,3,4,5 you're left with a lore that's going to be lacking. Of course you need to consider other things as well, like if you're using a Steam Tank, but it's something to keep in mind.


Firstly Life has no magic missiles. What I said was what happens if you don't roll Flesh to Stone and (in your case, as you're not fond of Dwellers) Throne of Vines. You get a bunch of more mediocre spells and you'd have been better off taking a lore where if you take 4 spells you're guaranteed some fantastic ones, Beasts is another lore with the same problem, but at least the signature is fantastic. Shadow and Light come to mind as lores where you can't go wrong.

I've quoted your last post at the top of this one, and as you see you made no mention of Flesh or Dwellers, you simply said the lore is meh if you don't get Throne. Regardless, there is no possible way a Level 4 can fail to get Flesh, Throne and Dwellers, unless he chooses to do so by swapping one out, so your point is moot. I thought Awakening was a MM, and the fact that it is actually DD makes it even better as you do not need LOS and it can be cast out of combat. More importantly here, your argument above seems to be directed as nothing as my whole argument was that all of the spells are good meaning you don't end up with mediocre spells, however you just repeated what you said before about mediocre spells. If I have Earth Blood/Awakening, Shield, Regrowth, and Dwellers I still have a very good spell set.


I wonder why you don't consider that a Lore can be less useful if you don't roll the spells you want.

Because all of the Life spells are good and non-situational, unlike Metal.


Life is indeed super handy for healing Stanks, Popemobiles and Wizardmobiles. Keeping your troops alive is almost a bonus at that point :p

Seriously though, Metal does have fairly universal spells in that they have a "nuke" #6 spell and some decent hex/augments. The damage spells are a bit situational, as many folks take the Dragonbane Gem/Dragonhelm, but Metal really does have devastating potential at times. And the ability to get 2+ save greatswords, 3+/6++ swordsmen, etc. is pretty awesome. +2 armor saves boosted to cast as an aoe is a giant pain in the ass for your opponent to deal with, and really works nicely for Empire style lists with support units and detachments, whereas Life is way more about building a Deathstar.

So you are telling me boosting armour saves and boosting toughness aren't done for the exact same reason? If one is for 'building a deathstar' mate, then so is the other, as the have the same goal; make our guys harder to kill. There's nothing 'deathstarish' about that, so no idea where you are coming from.

And yes Metal can be devastating, but the end of that sentence which you have omitted is, 'against a minority of armies who rely on small, heavily armoured units.

Askari
04-05-2012, 18:35
I've quoted your last post at the top of this one, and as you see you made no mention of Flesh or Dwellers, you simply said the lore is meh if you don't get Throne. Regardless, there is no possible way a Level 4 can fail to get Flesh, Throne and Dwellers, unless he chooses to do so by swapping one out, so your point is moot. I thought Awakening was a MM, and the fact that it is actually DD makes it even better as you do not need LOS and it can be cast out of combat. More importantly here, your argument above seems to be directed as nothing as my whole argument was that all of the spells are good meaning you don't end up with mediocre spells, however you just repeated what you said before about mediocre spells. If I have Earth Blood/Awakening, Shield, Regrowth, and Dwellers I still have a very good spell set.

You missed out this bit;

"feel you're far too prone to a rubbish spell roll with Life, even with a Level 4 if you roll 1,3,4,5 you're left with a lore that's going to be lacking. Of course you need to consider other things as well, like if you're using a Steam Tank, but it's something to keep in mind."

Flesh to Stone is no.2, Dwellers is no.6. So yes I did mention them. And my point is if you end up with Earth Blood, Shield, Regrowth and Dwellers you'd have been better off taking say, Shadow, where all the spells are amazing. I do feel that some of the Life spells are underwhelming. As for Awakening I wasn't pointing out that being Direct Damage is worse, just clarifying any potential problems that could occur if someone misreads it to being a magic missile. With High Elves and Lizardmen I fully support Life as you can either pick your spells or you just automatically get all of them, you do run a risk with Empire.

Sexiest_hero
04-05-2012, 19:22
"With High Elves and Lizardmen I fully support Life as you can either pick your spells or you just automatically get all of them, you do run a risk with Empire." And Daemons. Bloodletters with Flesh to stone is sick. But the 3 7th armies can get the spells they want. With life people may build around Flesh or Dwellers, and then not roll the spell. Life is a great lore, but without loremaster you do risk not getting the spell you want ( by you I mean people who take LoLife for those 2 spells). Lizardmen HE and Daemons get any spell they want.

GodlessM
04-05-2012, 19:48
You missed out this bit;

"feel you're far too prone to a rubbish spell roll with Life, even with a Level 4 if you roll 1,3,4,5 you're left with a lore that's going to be lacking. Of course you need to consider other things as well, like if you're using a Steam Tank, but it's something to keep in mind."

Flesh to Stone is no.2, Dwellers is no.6. So yes I did mention them. And my point is if you end up with Earth Blood, Shield, Regrowth and Dwellers you'd have been better off taking say, Shadow, where all the spells are amazing. I do feel that some of the Life spells are underwhelming. As for Awakening I wasn't pointing out that being Direct Damage is worse, just clarifying any potential problems that could occur if someone misreads it to being a magic missile. With High Elves and Lizardmen I fully support Life as you can either pick your spells or you just automatically get all of them, you do run a risk with Empire.

And once again you have based a point around a blanket statement that the spells are mediocre, but exactly how are they? Of the ones you listed, Regen. is widely considered a powerful tool for any unit, Shield is huge deterrant for ethereals and a good way to beat through the ever prevelant hordes faster, Regrowth brings guys back to life (something people have been complaining about being powerful pretty much forever) and can heal your biggies, which is usually a big deal, and Dwellers pretty much has a new thread about how to nerf it every other week. And this is in a general sense no matter what army you play. So what exactly about these common things people constantly complain about makes these spells mediocre?

Just as a note brought up by Sexiest_hero above; if somebody is building a list around a spell they may or may not get and may or may not cast successfully then they deserve to lose. You take a lore for what it might achieve to aid the other areas of your army, but all the time under the assumption that it could likely do nothing, because that is how fickle magic is. It's like the people that claim such and such is broken because they do so much damage under Mindrazor, but the reality is that relying on that spell alone to be effective means pretty much the opposite.

Askari
05-05-2012, 06:42
And once again you have based a point around a blanket statement that the spells are mediocre, but exactly how are they? Of the ones you listed, Regen. is widely considered a powerful tool for any unit, Shield is huge deterrant for ethereals and a good way to beat through the ever prevelant hordes faster, Regrowth brings guys back to life (something people have been complaining about being powerful pretty much forever) and can heal your biggies, which is usually a big deal, and Dwellers pretty much has a new thread about how to nerf it every other week. And this is in a general sense no matter what army you play. So what exactly about these common things people constantly complain about makes these spells mediocre?


Fine, I'll list point by point how the spells I've already mentioned as off are weaker in my opinion than other lores, I'm not going to mention Flesh to Stone or Throne of Vines and I thought you didn't like Dwellers, infact you agreed with me it's a crutch move. I'll compare them to my own favourite Lores, Shadow and Light.

Earth Blood vs Miasma vs Pha's Protection
While a 5+ Regen is nice, lots of things already have a 6+ parry save, and everyone has a source of flaming attacks to deal with Hydras and Abominations. The fact it has to effect the Wizard's unit make best use of this spell a pain, it it was targettable it'd be far nicer. Miasma is fantastically powerful and has a lower casting value, and can be boosted, allowing you to mess up enemy movement or just debuff them so your own troops can beat them, better than Earth Blood certainly. I put Pha's here as Shem's compares to other Life spells. Pha's makes it quite difficult for shooting armies to even hurt a unit even with warmachines, has a boosted version, and makes it more difficult for enemies to hit in combat as well, so it can easily match Earth Blood for saving lives. The fact you can target it or even have it as an aura, protecting most of your battleline, is just gravy. I'll stick Light of Battle here too, which probably is worse overall than Earth Blood, but still useful in tarpit situations and as it's not a signature spell you can always switch it out if you don't want it.

Awakening vs Shem's
Both do similar damage, Shem's is easier to cast though, a signature spell, can be boosted (but the casting value is high) and is far superior against Daemons and Undead, but is a magic missle rather than direct damage and Awakening is better if you're hiding Skirmishers in woods. 3.5-1.5 to Shem's. Nothing really compares in the Lore of Shadow, but just to cover it, Steed of Shadows is a supremely easy to cast spell to get something behind enemy lines, or over to block a charge/kill flanking chaff, or save your Wizard from impending doom.

Shield of Thorns vs. Banishment, or Net of Amyntok, or Pendulum.
Pendulum is an extra cannonball, that hits everything in a 6D6 line. It's pretty nasty, especially if you can angle it down a battleline. Banishment will just delete any Ethereal unit that dares come near, and does more damage than Shield against non-Undead/Daemons as well, the re-roll successful ward saves is really useful. The Net is more devastating against Elves and other S3 than the Shield as well, and isn't RiP so can't be dispelled off-hand in their magic phase, they're going to have to risk suffering if they want to do anything.

Regrowth vs. Enfeebling Fore/Withering/Speed of Light
Sure, d3+1 models coming back is alright, can get you out a tight spot like LSP said, saving a unit. Or you can make your unit WS10 I10 so they're difficult to hit in the first place and kill enemies before they strike, or reduce their Strength/Toughness so they can't kill d3+1 models or you kill comparatively extra. Regrowth is better on Elves/Daemons, but we're talking Empire here.

Dwellers vs. Okkam's, Pit and Timewarp
I honestly think Mindrazor and Timewarp are better spells than Dwellers, as it's not dependant on the target having a low Strength, they're just good against everything. Timewarp is criminally easy to cast, except if you bubble it, but then it's just horrendous - an army of ASF +1A horded troops? Mindrazor deletes units as handily as Dwellers does, without the problem of range and you can get two rounds of strikes in from one spell. Dweller's can on the off-hand win games single-handed, I grant that as well, even if for pure-damage Pit of Shades can do similar, if against different types of troops.

Jerry
05-05-2012, 10:04
@ Askari
Comparing individual spells isn't the best way to analyse the lores IMO. It's far better to compare the lores as a whole.
--Life--
Life is great for empire because it really helps where we need it the most. The lore attribute is great at healing characters which are vital to lots of tactics ie the horde of halberdiers with warrior priest for hatred. You want to preserve your characters as best you can without having to sink a lot of points into them and life does this better than any other lore.
Some people have mentioned 5+ regen as a whim but really, yes your opponent will have flaming attacks but those flaming attacks will be on small units for monster hunting just like we take a unit of 5 knights with the flaming banner etc. People take flaming attacks for hydras and hellpits not for big blocks of halberdiers and all of a sudden having regen on your big horde will cause problems in your opponents plan - will he charge his monster hunting unit in and sacrifice them because really no unit of monster hunters will win in a war of attrition against 40/50 halberdiers or 30/40 greatswords etc.
Also EB is 8+ to cast that's almost as cheap as they come and really a 5+/4+ which you can comfortably cast from your level 4 with 2/3 dice is great.

Power dice usage is key for empire players, a lot of people seem to be building their tactics around spamming warrior priest bound spells and also using a level 4 from one of the other lores for really expensive spells. My question is where you're going to get all these dice from because on average you'll get 7 PD (not including channels), 8 PD if you have a hurricanum and if you have a level 4 from say lore of light and you want to get the big bubble timewarp you'll have to commit 6 dice for a comfortable cast and even then you still have quite a high chance of failing that cast.
Relying on really expensive spells like that is not my cup of tea and then when you miscast you can't simply grow your wounds back like you can with a lord of life. You're pretty much gambling with 200+ points everytime you throw 6 dice at a spell and TBH it isn't worth it when all you get is +1A and ASF. You have to bear in mind empire I3 will not get re-rolls to hit against armies such as skaven, HE, beastmen, warriors and dark elves. Also striking first isn't a big deal as A: you should have enough wounds to soak up whatever you're opponent has and B: You aren't going to kill a lot anyway and even if you do you're opponent can likely nullify that by doing a similar amount of wounds against you unbuffed.
Rather than relying on your own ability to out kill your opponent you should rely on your ability to make your opponent unable to kill you. Your aim should be to win combat not to kill your opponent outright because empire is simply not that kind of army.

--Light--
Light has some really nice combos for combat defence and offence and it has great options to spend a lot of PD on really useful stuff but empire already has that option through WPs and TBH spending lots of dice on a big bubble has a major flaw - the dispel scroll. Combo charging 2 big units into your opponents deathstar then popping a huge ASF or WS bubble is great but it's very likely this will be at a crucial moment and your opponent will flop out his nasty dispel scroll and you're boned. Life doesn't have this problem because you can often have a couple casts that can have a big impact at a low cast rate ie F2S and regen.

Life also has access to a Remains in play spell which is great if you know how to use it. People say its bad because it gets dispelled. Quite the contrary. Forcing your opponent to use his PD or DD to dispell a RIP spell rather than casting/dispelling other spells is fantastic because it has the domino effect on the rest of the magic phases in the game. Example: You cast it during your T1 magic phase your opponent must now commit to dispelling this one spell taking away from his DD or if you cast it high enough dispel it in his own magic phase. This takes dice away from him casting his own spells. The only opponent this wouldn't work on would be dwarves since they have free PD in their phase anyway but against them you wouldn't want to be using remains in play spells anyway.

Anyway rather than point out the short-comings of other laws I'd rather just continue my ramble on how life should be president 2012.

Lots of people have mentioned life being a flop if you don't get throne but I disagree and really if you need a certain spell you should just take a support caster and force it. +2T is great and a 5+ regen is nothing to be scoffed at. Do remember that the 5+ regen and 5++ from the WP don't stack so I suggest planning your magic phase in such a way that you don't have both on a single unit. Really if your opponent doesn't having flaming attacks and mind you they probably wont, as mentioned before not many monster hunters will be willingly charged into a horde of infantry, you take 1/3 less wounds than you would've which is just as effective as a 5++. Also once again, 8+ to cast so go ahead and cast with 2/3 dice.
People have mentioned shield of thorns and awakening as problems in the lore but much to the contrary as they still have some good uses and the absolute worse case scenario for generating spells still gives you at least 2 of throne, f2s, dwellers and regrowth.
Now shield is also RIP which means if you cast if whilst you have throne of vines on you do 2d6 S4 hits forever until your opponent spends 2-4 dice to dispel it. Also if you have it and throne in order for your opponent to get rid of both he would need to throw away the majority of his own dice from his power pool mitigating his own magic phase/dispel phase.
Also on the issue of having to be in the unit for regen a great cheap combo I can see is having your wizard naked in the unit with a dragonbane/cloak and with regen your opponent will either A: Have flaming attacks so you get a 2++ or B: Not having flaming attacks and you have a 4+/5+ regen coupled with -1 to hit if you have the cloak. This also works on WPs/Captains with dragonhelm etc. so your opponent either has to deal with a high ward or regen save.

I think people need to consider character defence more than they are because really, go and count the points in your characters and how your army cannot function without them/how vulnerable they are to a quick few wounds from death/sniping etc. So F2S may mean your state troops go to T5 but your characters go to T6!! which equals 5s to wound from anything that isn't S4 with greatweapons.

Anyway discussion about 'best' is always going to lead to problems/flaming and choosing a lore is kinda like choosing your favourite colour but then again some colours are better than others...ie green :)

GodlessM
05-05-2012, 15:42
Jerry said it Askari, you are comparing individual spells under a general context that have completely different roles to each other. Plus adding in blanket points doesn't help your point, especially when you throw out falacies like 'a lot of things have 6+ parry'. Out of the armies that use Life; Daemons have no parry, High Elves have no parry, Bretonnians have no parry, Lizardmen have one unit that can parry, Empire have one unit that can parry, Wood Elves have no parry. If I forgot some armies then my bad, but the point is solid nonetheless; where are all these units with parry you speak of?

Also Jerry, nice idea on the Gem and Cloak combo.

Keetoowah
12-05-2012, 03:43
I just realized that you can put Balthasar Gelt in a unit of demigryph knights and he'll get a look out sir.
They are on chariot bases

Sexiest_hero
12-05-2012, 05:25
Daemons have a ward they don't need parry, Bretts have a prayer they don't need parry. High eles have shield spell, and Mega ASF so the don't need parry. Life is not the best lore as it lacks hexes. you talk about keeping Heroes alive but if they don't have a good ward and high armor, Trying to boost them through magic is just gonna lead to dead heroes. Id happily trade my magic phase to Dispel thrones, as Most armies don't need any help Beating Empire troops. You'll get the charge and Thrones get scrolled and all the dice dispels Flesh. You are gonna trick yourself into thinking your troops are hardcore,and your heroes and tough as nails. Beasts is a better lore for that.

Jericho
12-05-2012, 06:06
They are on chariot bases

Actually they're not. They come with 50x75mm bases, not 50x100mm (chariot) bases. I think the 50x75 was first used on the plastic Giant, though I could be wrong on that.

And as for my Life vs. Metal point earlier, I was saying that you can boost armor saves for all units within 12" while Light spells never cast on a radius like that, so Life can steer you towards a deathstar mentality while Metal lets you run a more traditional Empire army with multiple support units. Light can boost spells to cast in a 12" radius as well.

And with regard to Metal only being useful against certain armies, I don't really buy that. With Wood Elves, it's great against Treemen, Ogres have Mournfangs, Chaos/Empire/Dwarfs/Brets are self explanatory, it's pretty decent against many Dark Elf and VC heavy hitters, and the list goes on. Demons and Khemri are probably the armies that care the least about this lore's damage spells. The signature spell is a bit situational, but the only other spell that relies on the enemy armor save is Gehenna's Golden Hounds. Every army has access to 2+ armor now for their characters, and while many characters will be packing a 2++ against flaming attacks, this spell can quickly see the end of any character without it.

Like I said, many of the lores will work well, it just depends on what style of army you want to take. If you plan on hammering a single enemy unit, Shadow or Death can do that. If you want one "unkillable" unit, Life does that. If you want lots of augments for multiple units/characters, Light, Beasts and Metal do that. Heavens isn't overwhelmingly good at any one thing, but it's got a number of handy spells and Fire is what it is, a ******** of S4 damage spells that are fairly easy to cast.

Askari
12-05-2012, 07:05
Jerry said it Askari, you are comparing individual spells under a general context that have completely different roles to each other. Plus adding in blanket points doesn't help your point, especially when you throw out falacies like 'a lot of things have 6+ parry'. Out of the armies that use Life; Daemons have no parry, High Elves have no parry, Bretonnians have no parry, Lizardmen have one unit that can parry, Empire have one unit that can parry, Wood Elves have no parry. If I forgot some armies then my bad, but the point is solid nonetheless; where are all these units with parry you speak of?

Also Jerry, nice idea on the Gem and Cloak combo.

How are Daemons, High Elves and all the others even relevant in a "Best magic lore for Empire" discussion. If it was a "Best magic lore in general" I'd offer different points. Maybe it's because I still actually use Swordsmen and a few Sword & Shield characters, or maybe it's because the Luminark just grants 6+ ward without needing PD, but there's parry around. As for Flaming Banner comments, the Empire doesn't have Hydras or Abominations, so you can tag team the banner bearers into a unit with Earth Blood, which you will know as I already mentioned the major problem with that spell is that it has to be cast on the Wizard's unit, so you can't place the spell to be maximum deterrant to the enemy. I also think you're underestimaing the power of Timewarp, ASF +1A is really powerful, the non-bubble version is pretty easy to cast. You get to strike simultaneous with Swordmasters who would otherwise just butcher you all before you strike. You strike before dangerous but smaller units like Dark Elves, potentially lowering the number of attacks you take back. And who'd say no to 10 more S4/5 halberd/greatsword attacks? Because at the end of the game, you need to have killed some of the enemy, not simply outlasted them.

Really don't see the benefit of Remains in Play spells, as unlike augments and hexes which last until next magic phase, RiP spells just give your opponent more than one opportunity to dispel it, and at a discount later on (unless you cast on the exact casting value, I suppose).

decker_cky
12-05-2012, 09:22
They are on chariot bases

As mentioned....they aren't. Regardless, that has nothing to do with look out sir.

Tuttivillus
12-05-2012, 10:18
Yep. Not a base but a troop type is relevant.

Private_SeeD
12-05-2012, 14:14
I've been using lore of life, but I have a game against high elves so was thinking of using the lore of light or heavens, what you guys think?


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Sexiest_hero
13-05-2012, 00:11
For high elves I'd take light over heavens.

Jerry
13-05-2012, 04:39
Yeh with light you'll be able to take away some of the High Elves key advantages such as higher WS, I and ASF.