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SanDiegoSurrealist
01-05-2012, 22:14
In reading Okkam’s Mind Razor again it says

“…Models in the target unit use the Leadership Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength, for rolling to wound with close combat attacks.” edited to match FAQ

It does not specifically say that you replace Leadership for Strength just for rolling to wound. So while the augment spell would in fact grant a higher percentage chance of wounding it would not grant the negative to the opponents Amour save for having a higher Strength, in fact if says “do not gain any weapon Str bonuses” as well. Which leads me to belive that it is not meant to offer STR bonus at all.

A Dark Elf Spearmen unit with Mind Razor cast on it would still wound as if S7, but would not enjoy the
-4 Armour Save that goes along with it, they would still theoretically be hitting at Str 3.

By the way below is the real definition of Occam's Razor (kind of ironic that we discuss so many rules at length on these forums)

Occam's Razor is a principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

Artiee
01-05-2012, 22:18
THe FAQ for the BRB states

Reference Section – The Lore of Shadow, Okkam’s
Mindrazor
Change “[...]Models in the target unit use their Leadership
instead of Strength when rolling To Wound with[...]” to
“[...]Models in the target unit use the Leadership
Characteristic written on their profile, instead of their Strength,
for[...]”

SanDiegoSurrealist
01-05-2012, 22:26
...for rolling to wound. So yes the percentage chance to cause a wound is significantly higher.

My point is that it does not say that it actually makes the model S7 (DE example). So no negative to armor saves should be applied.

theunwantedbeing
01-05-2012, 22:35
...for rolling to wound.
Actually, it's for close combat attacks.
The bit about rolling to wound is part of the wording that get's removed.

jtrowell
01-05-2012, 22:36
While I think that the FAQ is meant to allow the spell to modify armor saves too, I proposed to my group to house rule our original interpretation (the same as yours: armor save modified by original S value), so heavy armor can still be a good defense against the spell.

Someone mentionned about this house rule that it made the spell at best the same as the one reducing the T of the target, but I disagree for the following reasons:
- the other spell is Rest in Play, and will often only be in effecdt for my own turn, while Occam will be there for my turn and the opponent's
- reducint the T of the target by 1d3 is good, but Occam is usually like increasing my S by a guaranted 4 or more, making wounding really hard targets like monsters much easier than reducing their toughness by 1 or 2 could have.

Artiee
02-05-2012, 02:00
I can see arguments both ways. I think the FAQ is meant to state that you don't use the General Leadership or the highest in the unit. I don't think they get the - to armor. But I do allow it until its FAQ either or.

AMWOOD co
02-05-2012, 03:05
This was actually one of the better FAQ answers. Since the Ld value is used in place of the Strength value for close combat (as compared to just rolling to wound), anywhere that Strength would be checked uses the other value; this is both the To Wound roll and the Armour Save Modifier. Also, the FAQ wording removes using the unit's Ld to the Ld values of the individual models, clearing up all the mess of having characters in the unit or the general nearby. There really isn't any ambiguity left.

Artiee, you obviously disagree, care to elaborate on how you think I'm misinterpretting?

N1AK
02-05-2012, 16:08
This was actually one of the better FAQ answers. There really isn't any ambiguity left.


Exactly my opinion. I think the old RAW meant you would use strength for working out armour modification even though it wasn't played that way. The new wording makes it very clear that the leadership value on your profile is used for the close combat. I don't think there's any ambiguity anymore.

SanDiegoSurrealist
02-05-2012, 17:20
Thanks for clearing that up for me.

I am playing in a 2500 point tourny this weekend and will be running a 40 woman/man block of Daemonettes, I think I will be sticking a Tzeenth Shadow Mage some where in my list now.

Dirty Mac
02-05-2012, 21:38
I don't play DoC but can a TZ mage take shadow lore? wouldn't he be stuck with the lore of Tz?

Sexiest_hero
02-05-2012, 21:52
No, Daemons can do just about anything the want, including getting lore master for cheap. In any bsb lore they want at that.

sorberec
02-05-2012, 22:06
I don't play DoC but can a TZ mage take shadow lore? wouldn't he be stuck with the lore of Tz?

Not if he takes the "Master of Sorcery" Daemonic Gift