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Khorneflakes
02-05-2012, 06:19
1) if a chaos unit contains a bsb with the "banner of rage" and the character leaves the unit, are they still effected by frenzy?
the banner says the unit can never lose their frenzy even if beaten in combat

2) what about a gore/doombull in a unit and they leave, does the unit still have frenzy until they are beaten in combat?

Mercules
02-05-2012, 12:52
1. No.
2. No.

Why? You are not considered in the unit or "any unit they have joined" unless you are actually in the unit. When you leave that state ceases to be as do any rules granted from it.

Iraf
02-05-2012, 14:15
I'd have to say yes to both. Since the rules for Frenzy state that you only lose Frenzy once beaten in combat, and there is no stipulation on either of those items that they only retain Frenzy while the said Character or Banner are in the unit.

Fubar
02-05-2012, 14:30
Firstly, The wording for banner of rages states "the unit with this banner....." if the unit no longer has the banner then no it does not have frenzy anymore.

Secondly, really????

Iraf
02-05-2012, 14:34
Read the rules for frenzy. Yes, really.

Sayber
02-05-2012, 15:25
I'd agree with Iraf, it also says under Special Rules in the Character section "On the other hand, many spells and magic items bestow special rules and other effects on units. In this case, everyone (including the character) in the combined unit will be affected."

The only notion that makes mention of a character losing a special rule when he leaves a unit is for spells only earlier in the Character section, not from magical items that affect units.

AMWOOD co
02-05-2012, 16:14
But, Iraf... it isn't so much that the Frenzy is being lost in the sense that they were beaten in combat, but that the source of their Frenzy is now gone so they no longer have it. If one were to ask 'Why does this unit have Frenzy?' there should be an immediate and present answer (the most common is "It's one of their special rules."). However, if the Battle Standard with the Banner of Rage wanders off or dies, there is no longer a source for the special rule. Since they don't have Frenzy granted from anything, they no longer have it. One could easily argue that the paragraph you are reading presupposes that the unit has Frenzy as one of their special rules in their Bestiary (as every other special rule does).

Besides, by your logic, Hysterical Frenzy is a permenant effect except for the wounds inflicted. I find this ludicrous.

BloodiedSword
02-05-2012, 16:34
Mmm I'm inclined to agree with Iraf for the Banner of Rage question actually.

Yes normally magic items give you bonuses that you would lose when the magic item disappears (from it leaving the unit, having charges used, being destroyed, etc). Either way, "not being affected by rule X that you were previously affected by" is the very definition of "losing rule X".

In this case, rule X explicitly states that it cannot be lost. So, as written, the Frenzy from the Banner of Rage can never be lost (as it states in its rules), even if
- the unit is defeated in combat
- the banner leaves the unit
- the model bearing the banner is killed
- the banner is destroyed by Vaul's Unmaking

I don't know about the second question.

Iraf
02-05-2012, 17:25
But, Iraf... it isn't so much that the Frenzy is being lost in the sense that they were beaten in combat, but that the source of their Frenzy is now gone so they no longer have it. If one were to ask 'Why does this unit have Frenzy?' there should be an immediate and present answer (the most common is "It's one of their special rules."). However, if the Battle Standard with the Banner of Rage wanders off or dies, there is no longer a source for the special rule. Since they don't have Frenzy granted from anything, they no longer have it. One could easily argue that the paragraph you are reading presupposes that the unit has Frenzy as one of their special rules in their Bestiary (as every other special rule does).

Besides, by your logic, Hysterical Frenzy is a permenant effect except for the wounds inflicted. I find this ludicrous.

That is my interpretation of the rules for Frenzy. The Losing Frenzy paragraph on page 70 is very clear that they retain Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat. There is no difference between a unit who has Frenzy as an inherent ability or one granted from a spell or item. Frenzy is Frenzy, and must follow the rules for Frenzy on page 70.

Montegue
02-05-2012, 17:41
So you can just run your BSB around and give your whole army frenzy? Cheese.

Iraf
02-05-2012, 17:43
So you can just run your BSB around and give your whole army frenzy? Cheese.

I wish I could, my VC dont have access to that banner :(

MyNameDidntFit
02-05-2012, 18:08
By RAW, that certainly works.

Hell Storm
02-05-2012, 18:32
So if what you're saying is true, I cold take a BSB with the Banner of Eternal Flame and have him join each unit in my army, one at a time, to give all of them flaming attacks for the entire game? The losing Frenzy rule states "Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on." That means it will also work for the Strider Standard, Wailing Banner, and Razor Standard just to name the ones from the BRB.

Sometimes people should just look at how the rules are supposed to be played. It is clear that this isn't the intent of the rule and anyone playing as such should quit playing. It is these kind of rules lawyers that makes me sad to be associated with the game.

AntaresCD
02-05-2012, 18:37
I'm new here, but I thought I'd chime in (forgive me if I'm wrong), but the point of the losing Frenzy section on page 70 (Side Note: Are we allowed to quote rules in relevant discussions?) is making the point that unlike other special rules you can lose it by losing combat. That does not override the basic premise that a magic item, banner, equipment, whatever is what is conferring the special rule.

So you have the "normal" situation:
-Character holding Item A confers Special Rule X to the Unit 1.
-Character holding Item A leaves the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 loses Special Rule X.
-Character joins Unit 2.
-Unit 2 now has Special Rule X.

With Frenzy this can change:
-Character holding Item A confers Frenzy to the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 loses combat -> Frenzy is lost as per Losing Frenzy on page 70 of BRB. (*)
-Character holding Item A leaves the Unit 1.
-Unit 1 would lose Frenzy at this point, but had already lost it so nothing else happens. (*)
-Character joins Unit 2.
-Unit 2 now has Frenzy until beaten in combat or the character leaves the unit.

Frenzy is different in that you can also lose it sooner by losing combat. The note on banner of rage about not losing frezny if you are beaten in combat is specifically overriding the Losing Frenzy paragraph on page 70, making it just like every other special rule (you only lose it if nullified by magic or the source is removed) in which case you would adjust the steps marked with a (*), leaving you with the "normal" situation.

Iraf
02-05-2012, 18:38
No Hellstorm, to just about everything you just said. It works specifically for Frenzy, as Frenzy says the only way it can be lost. I feel you are taking the RAW for Frenzy and adding them to every other special ability, which is absurd.

And this isn't rules lawyering, or loophole playing. It's the actual rules for Frenzy.

And your comments that people like me make you sad to be associated makes me wonder why you're associated with the game at all. Don't be associated if such a simple disagreement gets you annoyed. In fact, I wish you'd quit playing if this type of conversation gets your panties all in knots.

Mid'ean
02-05-2012, 18:40
Sometimes people should just look at how the rules are supposed to be played. It is clear that this isn't the intent of the rule and anyone playing as such should quit playing. It is these kind of rules lawyers that makes me sad to be associated with the game.

Amem to that brother....:rolleyes:

AntaresCD
02-05-2012, 18:54
All of the rules that relate to "losing Frenzy" tell you how you can lose it sooner (losing combat). When you have a further rule that negates that by saying you don't lose it to losing combat then you have the normal rules for all special rules.

Losing combat is not the "only" way to lose Frenzy. It is the only way to lose it early.

Artiee
02-05-2012, 18:55
I agreeing with Amwood. The banner states that The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. When the banner is no longer in the unit, the unit does not have frenzy. They do not lose frenzy unless the banner leaves the unit. When the banner is not in the unit. It is not giving the Frenzy special rule so the unit doesnt have frenzy.


If you think the unit still has frenzy even tho the banner is no longer in the unit, then all the other banner/items/spells would work the same way. The Razor banner states models in the unit wiht the banner have AP special rule. If the banner leaves then then unit still has the rule., (not), I can go on and on.

The banner needs to be in the unit to give the special rule. Unless it states a distance like the banner of the gods where all friendly units within 6" are stubborn

The FAQ states with spells.

Q: If a Wizard casts a spell that targets himself, or himself and his
unit, and then leaves the unit, will the spell remain on both the
Wizard and the unit? (p97)
A: No, once the Wizard has left the unit it will only target him.
If he subsequently joins another unit, or rejoins the unit he has
left, while the spell is still in play then they will benefit from the
spell.

Hell Storm
02-05-2012, 22:21
It works specifically for Frenzy, as Frenzy says the only way it can be lost.

Please grab a BRB and read losing frenzy. It never says "the only way to lose frenzy is to...". It says "Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on." If you are trying to say that this is legal, then it will work for EVERY SPECIAL RULE printed. If I give a unit ASF then it can't lose it for the remainder of the game. If I give your unit ASL, it wont lose it until the game is over. Since this obviously isn't the case, it brings us to a single conclusion; you will lose Frenzy if the model carrying the banner of rage leaves the unit.

Iraf
02-05-2012, 22:25
"Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat" is pretty cut and dry.

AntaresCD
02-05-2012, 23:39
"Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat" is pretty cut and dry.

No it's not. That is one sentence out of context. If you're going to quote it quote the rest of it:

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat..."

Let's break this down:

Unlike other special rules, - Now we know we're discussing something out of the ordinary for special rules.
Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. - Frenzy can be lost during the course of the game where under normal circumstances a special rule would still be in effect.

Ok pause here a moment. That sentence says (putting it together): Unlike every other special rule, you can lose Frenzy during the course of a normal game where under normal circumstances a special rule would stil be in effect.

Normally a special rule, if it's on your profile, stays with you the whole game unless lost to a spell or item. A special rule granted by a spell or item lasts as long as the item/spell is in/active on you/your unit.

So common sense check: Does the fact that you can lose Frenzy affect the normal rules for having a special rule? No, except for what is specifically stated, that you can lose it by being beaten in combat.

Continuing the break down:

Models retain their Frenzy - Note the use of the word "retain." To retain something is to keep possesion of. You have to already have something to retain it. We'll come back to that.
for the entire game unless beaten in combat - Now we know how long we retain it - the entire game - unless we lose combat.

Let's put that sentence together now: You retain posession of this special rule for the entire game unless you're beaten in combat.

So now let's put the whole thing together: Frenzy, unlike other special rules can be lost where under normal circumstances a special rule would still be in effect. You retain this special rule until you are beaten in combat.

You have to have something to retain it!

How do you have a special rule:
1) It's on your profile.
2) It's provided by a spell.
3) It's provided by a magic item.

For #2, you only have the special rule for the duration of the spell. For #3, you only have the special rule as long as the item is within the relevant area of effect (on the character, in the unit, within 6", whatever it may be).

For #1 though, you always have it. Hence the important note that you can lose Frenzy unlike other special rules.

The point is that Frenzy is unusual in that you can "erase it" (lose it) from a model or unit when any other special rule would still persist. How do you lose it, you are beaten in combat. If that condition does not occur then you continue to retain it. If you don't have the rule anymore, then the discussion is moot as there is nothing to retain posession of!

Cherry picking a portion of a rule out of context is generally not a good idea in a large, complex system.

Wildchild200
03-05-2012, 00:00
Surely the wording "The unit with this banner has the frenzy special rule" (WOC pg115) means that only the unit with the banner has frenzy and cannot lose it. If the bearer leaves the unit, it is him who is now 'the unit with the banner' so the unit he left does not have it and so can in no way be classed as "The unit with this banner" and does not benefit from any part of its rules

Iraf
03-05-2012, 00:21
Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

The item gives the unit Frenzy, they lose Frenzy when beaten in combat. No other time do they lose Frenzy.

Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

AntaresCD
03-05-2012, 01:01
Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."

The item gives the unit Frenzy, they lose Frenzy when beaten in combat. No other time do they lose Frenzy.

Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

I honestly don't know how the Beastmen army works as I've never read the rulebook nor played the army, but as to your other point:

I was pointing out the key term "retain." You only retain something you posess. It doesn't say you can only lose Frenzy by beaing beaten in combat. It says you retain Frenzy until beaten in combat. It sounds like splitting hairs but it is an important distinction. In other words, profile/item/spell gives you Frenzy, you retain it until beaten in combat. If the item/spell that gave the model/unit Frenzy is no longer giving them that rule then they have nothing to retain. They didn't "lose" Frenzy when the item/spell left, they are no longer being granted the special rule by said item/spell. Unfortunately English, this lovely hodge-podge language we're using, alows the verb lose to be used in both contexts and confuse everyone.

Bottom line: There is no Frenzy to retain if the special rule is no longer being granted by the item in question because it's not in the unit anymore.

Note: On the bright side, if you have an item like that that grants frenzy, and the unit loses combat, you can take the item out then rejoin (on a later turn since you can't leave and rejoin a unit in the same turn) granting Frenzy again (which they can go on to keep or lose based on how they do in combat and whether or not the character with the item sticks around).

Khorneflakes
03-05-2012, 01:18
the thing is banner of rage says that the unit will never lose frenzy even if beaten in close combat. if he dies they are still frenzied.

frenzy is a state of mind not a special ability bestowed by an item like the armour piercing banner

the bsb joins a unit and they become frenzied, he then leaves the unit they will still be frenzied, it just doesnt turn off like a light switch

as i see it they are all worked up and then one of them goes "hey steve the bsb has left us! i dont feel so frenzed now" "yeah i agree, oh well back to the fight"

Snake22486
03-05-2012, 01:23
Antares, I didn't take anything out of context, for it to be taken out of context something else in the paragraph would have to change that statement. Which nothing does. I showed the relevant statement in the paragraph.

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on. Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat, at which point the enemy have succeeded in ... And the Frenzy (together with all associated rules) is lost."


So, this statement says that frenzy is unique to other special rules in that it can be lost as the game goes on. This sentence is contained in the paragraph describing how frenzy can be lost as compared to other special rules.

that is the point of the whole paragraph. not to give every magic item perma frenzy for whatever unit it touched in the course of the game.. so yes, you did take it out of context.

Iraf
03-05-2012, 02:21
Snake, I'll have to disagree with you.

Snake22486
03-05-2012, 02:57
So how do you know your unit loses flaming attacks when the bsb with flaming banner leaves the unit?

Iraf
03-05-2012, 04:12
Because the flaming attacks special rule doesn't give a stipulations that they retain flaming until beaten in combat, it goes away when the bsb is removed from the unit.

Iraf
03-05-2012, 04:18
Listen, this is now a circular argument. You're argument revolves around the idea that Frenzy can be lost other than the way outlined on pg 70, and mine is only that outlined on pg 70. We disagree, but seem to understand each others pt of view. I think we're done.

Khorneflakes
03-05-2012, 05:32
you lose flaming attacks as it says in the description " models in a unit with the banner of eternal attacks have flamming attacks" if the banner isnt there then you dont get them. all the banners in the rule book have the same exact wording, the banner of rage is worded different

Artiee
03-05-2012, 05:35
Sorry, Not sure how you think they would still have frenzy when they no longer have the rule when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. If this is how you play, I sorry that you been cheating your opponents.

Khorneflakes
03-05-2012, 05:38
FLUFF sewn from strings of congealed gore, this banner eminates a bloodlust so strong that those beneath it are goaded into a state of permanent rage FLUFF

RULES the unit with this banner has the frenzy rule. they will never lose their frenzy, even if beaten in combat RULES

so if the bsb joins the unit, he gives them frenzy, he then leaves the unit, they will still have it as it says they will never lose their frenzy.

Khorneflakes
03-05-2012, 05:39
havent used the banner yet but was thinking of useing it this way, was asking every1 here if this is acceptable or not, dont accuse me of cheating

Snake22486
03-05-2012, 06:33
the part about never losing it is to counteract the extra rule in the book that says frenzy can be lost. the rule in the main book is not there to grant this magic banner additional benefits. the banner is worded that way so that while the unit has the banner, they will not lose their frenzy, even if losing a round of combat.

any other use for this banner would be an entirely new form of magic item that does not exist in warhammer. I would not even attempt to bring your interpretation up with someone i was playing against. they are liable to quit on you.

Askari
03-05-2012, 09:12
the part about never losing it is to counteract the extra rule in the book that says frenzy can be lost.

I'll believe that's what was intended, but that's not what it says, unfortunately. I think in the specific case of the Banner of Rage, the unit will indeed keep it's Frenzy rule, but due to the banner's own rule stating "They will never lose their frenzy, even if..." Other sources of Frenzy I'd argue are lost when the frenzy source leaves the unit, as the BRB rule for Frenzy does not it's the only way to lose it, just an additional way to lose it.

T10
03-05-2012, 10:52
It seems to me that the unit loses the Frenzy special rule when the model that grants it to the unit has left, and that this is different from Frenzy no longer affecting the unit after they have been beaten in combat.

-T10

HurrDurr
03-05-2012, 11:34
Iraf has been seduced by the dark side of the lawyering.

@khorneflakes, frenzy is not a state of mind, there are no states of mind in warhammer, only rules with fluff behind them.

It's blatantly obvious that it this argument was conceived based on twisting the description around, can anyone honestly argue that the RAI were to allow this banner to give perma frenzy to any unit it joins, then pop out and move on to the next? It's makes an attempt in the description to explain this but as we've seen time and time with GWS its weak in its comprehension.

Advanced rules overrule basic rules "the unit(singular) with this banner gains frenzy" so you have to ask yourself, are you a unit with this banner?

Saying that the wording permits you to have frenzy even without the banner because the wording "the unit never loses frenzy even if beaten in combat" refers directly to the rule regarding losing frenzy when beaten in combat, and only in combat. Most/All of the cases made were hinging somewhat on that statement meaning that the frenzy was permanent under all circumstances, when the same item description also describes what conditions have to be met for the special rule to take place. This banner grants frenzy, losing the banner would remove the special rule that is granting frenzy.

Just my personal opinion, when there is a clear RAI and that is being disputed, its lawyering.

MyNameDidntFit
03-05-2012, 13:08
By RAI the banner's rules are clearly just overriding the lose combat = lose frenzy equation. That much is blatantly obvious.

By RAW, however, is different. You're not going to make any friends playing it like this and I personally would not use it as such, but the fact is that the rules as written declare in a straightforward manner that a unit with that banner in it gains frenzy (thus negating the "you must have it to retain it" argument) and then goes on to state that it may never lose frenzy. I don't know about you guys but I'm fairly certain that "never" has a very solid meaning as "not ever", ie. not even if the banner leaves the unit (through death, the BSB leaving or any other conceivable manner).

Sayber
03-05-2012, 13:34
By RAI the banner's rules are clearly just overriding the lose combat = lose frenzy equation. That much is blatantly obvious.

By RAW, however, is different. You're not going to make any friends playing it like this and I personally would not use it as such, but the fact is that the rules as written declare in a straightforward manner that a unit with that banner in it gains frenzy (thus negating the "you must have it to retain it" argument) and then goes on to state that it may never lose frenzy. I don't know about you guys but I'm fairly certain that "never" has a very solid meaning as "not ever", ie. not even if the banner leaves the unit (through death, the BSB leaving or any other conceivable manner).

What he said

oldWitheredCorpse
03-05-2012, 15:04
This is a case of abusable bad wording. It probably needs a FAQ.

decker_cky
03-05-2012, 15:58
Here is an example how you think it would work. Say a Doombull is deployed with a unit of Minotaurs, giving them Frenzy. If they win 2 rounds of combat they have 2 extra attacks due to blood greed. Now, you're saying if the Doombull leaves the unit they lose their Frenzy. He is the one that gave them Frenzy. Blood greed never gave the Minotaurs Frenzy, since they had it from the Doombull already. With your way, they'd be affected by blood greed but not Frenzy.

You didn't properly read bloodgreed. It's clearly written and covers this situation perfectly. Everytime a unit with bloodgreed wins combat, they gain frenzy. Furthermore, if they won combat and already had frenzy, they gain +1 attack. So if a doombull is in a unit of minotaurs, and dies in a round of combat, the unit immediately loses their source for frenzy. If they win that round, the unit regains frenzy, but not +1 attack.

If the doombull survived, and the unit won combat, then the minotaurs are already frenzied, so gain frenzy (from a second source) and +1 attack. The doombull could then leave the unit, and the minotaurs would still have both frenzy and +1 attack.

Capt._Jaelinek
06-05-2012, 23:27
After reading the post, I have to agree with Iraf on several points. I'm not a WoC player and have never used said banner of rage, but if a BSB joins a unit the unit gains frenzy, we all agree on that. As long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy. We all agree on that. If the unit loses combat and flees the BSB dies and the banner is lost. If the unit escapes and rallies do they still have frenzy? I think not. Here's why. The BSB and banner granted frenzy that cannot be lost. But that rule goes away when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. The unit would then revert to the normal frenzy rules at that point.

If the BSB runs from unit to unit granting frenzy to everyone I don't see this as a problem with the frenzy rules. Frenzy has been granted and the way it is lost is very clear. Now I would disagree that those units would have frenzy that cannot be lost. They would just have normal frenzy when the banner is no longer in the unit.

I really think frenzy is a very different rule than most others. Frenzy is not automaticall granted like other rules. You really need to ignore most other special rules restrictions and read just p70.

HurrDurr
07-05-2012, 08:18
After reading the post, I have to agree with Iraf on several points. I'm not a WoC player and have never used said banner of rage, but if a BSB joins a unit the unit gains frenzy, we all agree on that. As long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy. We all agree on that. If the unit loses combat and flees the BSB dies and the banner is lost. If the unit escapes and rallies do they still have frenzy? I think not. Here's why. The BSB and banner granted frenzy that cannot be lost. But that rule goes away when the BSB dies or leaves the unit. The unit would then revert to the normal frenzy rules at that point.

If the BSB runs from unit to unit granting frenzy to everyone I don't see this as a problem with the frenzy rules. Frenzy has been granted and the way it is lost is very clear. Now I would disagree that those units would have frenzy that cannot be lost. They would just have normal frenzy when the banner is no longer in the unit.

I really think frenzy is a very different rule than most others. Frenzy is not automaticall granted like other rules. You really need to ignore most other special rules restrictions and read just p70.

What in there allows you to differentiate between it being perma frenzy and it being regular frenzy? From what I've read there's been basically two sentences on the item description and none of them say any of that. We don't all agree that as long as the BSB is alive and has the banner the unit cannot lose frenzy, only those things while it is in the unit. You can't choose which part(s) of a single rule with multiple effects goes away when the BSB dies either, I'm curious how many situations in warhammer even work that way without explicitly stating so. Nothing says the unit reverts to regular frenzy at any point. Saying a unit has normal frenzy instead of no frenzy or perma frenzy after the banner was present in the unit but currently absent is also inferred heavily, the descriptions provided at least just plain don't give enough information to be sure on one ruling or the other.

While I agree there isn't one cut and dry way to interpret the rules I agree with oldwitheredcorpse, it's an abusive play on words. Is a banner buffing any unit it wants with perma frenzy really not set off any alarms for anyone else? Seems pretty extreme for a banner, and odd that it would be intended to be used as a weird hop around and buff mechanic.

Wesser
07-05-2012, 10:19
The unit the character is with has Frenzy.

If he leaves it, then they arent frenzied. They havent lost it per se. The source of their unloseable frenzy just isnt there anymore.

Lets leave it at that. I can't think of anyone I know who'd play anyone who wanted to to interpret rules this way

MyNameDidntFit
07-05-2012, 11:31
Contrary, the unit the character is with doesn't "have" frenzy. They "gain" frenzy when joined by the character. Once "gained" this version of frenzy my "never" be lost.

It is indeed very RAW and not at all RAI (and as I said earlier you wouldn't make any friends playing it like that) but it's how it's written and any literal interpretation of the rules will tell you so.

BloodiedSword
07-05-2012, 16:19
It seems to me that the unit loses the Frenzy special rule when the model that grants it to the unit has left, and that this is different from Frenzy no longer affecting the unit after they have been beaten in combat.

-T10

The banner of rage states that the unit "will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat".

While I agree with you that there are 2 ways for a unit to lose "normal" frenzy (1. be beaten in combat, or 2. lose the source of their frenzy), the wording of the Banner of Rage does allow one to ignore any and all means by which Frenzy could be lost. I don't think there's any ambiguity in the wording either.

I'm not going to speculate on intention :)

Mercules
07-05-2012, 16:59
The banner of rage states that the unit "will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat".

So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

Artiee
07-05-2012, 19:39
So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

Ture.. Thats in the rules as they been trying to apply it.

Andy p
07-05-2012, 20:37
This thread is working me up into a......

HurrDurr
08-05-2012, 01:45
So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".

If I don't use my hail of doom arrow can I save it for future games if my character doesn't die? I'm thinking wait until I get 6 HODAs then go to a bit tourney and tell them I've been collecting them.

Why stop here, can Counts and Khems resurrect units that have died from previous games, the rules don't say you can only raise units from your 3000 point allocation, nowhere does it mention older units not being targets, it also doesn't say they are no longer laying around on the field as a pile of bones.

I'm out of ideas, anyone else have any good ones?

Just one question for those pushing for perma-frenzy, where did you study law :)? Even arguing they keep frenzy without banner is completely understandable but perma-frenzy hopping seems pretty ridiculous.

Edit: This makes me think of people trying to deny someone of a melee only ward save because certain close combat attacks are "randomized as shooting attacks" claiming the words "as shooting attacks" concludes that they are shooting attacks not distributed "as" a shooting attack "would be".

Capt._Jaelinek
08-05-2012, 03:11
Hurrdurr, sorry if I wasn't clear in my earlier post. What I meant to say is if the BSB is alive and still in the unit they have perma-frenzy. If the BSB dies or leaves the unit there is nothing to maintain perma-frenzy. But IMO that unit would still have normal frenzy from that point on.

I certainly am not advocating rules spanning games, even in the sarcastic fashion presented above. I guess my question is how many points is a Banner of Rage? Can rank and file units take the banner?

If its 10-25pts and anyone can take it then I agree that a BSB running amok sprinkling frenzy dust is broken. But if it's 50 or more points it should be really good and we can start discussing RAW and RAI.

GodlessM
08-05-2012, 03:31
The wording is there to indicate that losing combat does not ditch the frenzy, hence why it is specifically mentioned. 'The unit that has this banner has the Frenzy special rule'. 'Has' is present tense. This is a sequence of equations that need to be resolved. If the unit has the banner at present it has Frnezy at present, if it doesn't have it, then this does not apply and part two becomes moot as they have no frenzy to lose.

Stuff like this pisses me off to know end as it along with other shenanigans gives WoC a bad rep as a gamey army. It wouldn't surprise me if it turned put Manson had played Warhammer, because the lengths people go to just to get an advantage in a game of toy soldiers of all things is pathetic and would drive anyone on a murder spree or ten.

shakedown47
08-05-2012, 05:42
RAW, which is the only way you can reasonably force someone to look at it, once a unit has gained the Frenzy special rule from the Banner of Rage they will have it for the remainder of the game unless they lose a combat. In addition, a special bonus for the unit bearing or containing the banner is that they can never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat, as long as the Banner is present in said unit.

pg. 70 of the BRB: "Models retain their Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in close combat..." This is the only legal way of playing it; you can argue against that if you want, but you'll be wrong because the big book says so and is in no way ambiguous. However, only one unit at a time can be so-called "perma-frenzied" because, while the Banner of Rage grants the special rule Frenzy (without caveats) to any unit that has it or has had it in the course of the game, there is a very specific qualifier for the perma-frenzy effect. The wording of the Banner is read as : "The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They (the unit WITH the banner) will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat." If you don't meet the first part of the condition, in this case being the unit with the banner, you can't benefit from the second part, in this case keeping your Frenzy even if beaten in close combat.

It's that easy, it's that cut-and-dry. It's completely supported by the normal rules and requires no concessions or leaps of faith from either player. Unless you want to play by house rules, and by all means please do, RAW will always be the expected way to play and trying to argue against them with empirical evidence will find you on the losing end, every time. Additionally, trying to argue 7th edition RAI in an 8th edition setting is often going to cause these kinds of headaches, so please do us a favor and just don't. Check the RAW and, if you find there is no ambiguity or non-rule-supported situation, just leave it at that.

HurrDurr
08-05-2012, 06:32
@ capt, I see, I agree with it keeping regular frenzy for RAW but not RAI if it says "gain" and not "has" as godless and others have pointed out, but what can you do about that? Once again this could be avoided if the company we shell out thousands to as a community would take 20 minutes to FAQ it.

Would someone please post the exact quote for the item description including fluff, if that's not against the rules.

slaanghoul
08-05-2012, 09:58
I hope i'm not breaking the rules here.... but I want ppl to judge this by reading the content in complete details.


Banner of Rage 35pt
"Sewn from strings of congealed gore, this banner radiates a bloodlust so strong that those beneath it are goaded into a state of permanent rage"

The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.


That's it.

You got to be an idiot to play this banner hopping and can make all your troops in your army frenzy because of the wording. The banner is only 35 pt!!!!
The key word is THE UNIT WITH THIS BANNER..... if the unit no longer has the banner... it doesn't have the special rules any more. The intent is clear that you never loose Frenzy as long as the banner is standing in this unit. FFS.... anybody who play hopping and making your whole army frenzy is cheese. This is my Opinion and nobody can even come close to change my mind about his.... my god.... 35pt to make your army frenzy .... is just stupid.

oldWitheredCorpse
08-05-2012, 10:35
The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.

This is crystal clear to me: the banner doesn't "give" frenzy: the unit with it "has frenzy". It's obvious that this means that if the banner is no longer with the unit, it no longer has frenzy.

MyNameDidntFit
08-05-2012, 11:01
So are we soon going to argue that Unit X still has frenzy from the last game we played since the player hasn't changed the unit around? It does state, "never".
Not the same unit. If you played that way, you'd never be able to use a magic item on a character in any game after a character with it died. Or never use a SC after they had died. The rules do not state anything to that effect.


The wording is there to indicate that losing combat does not ditch the frenzy, hence why it is specifically mentioned. 'The unit that has this banner has the Frenzy special rule'. 'Has' is present tense. This is a sequence of equations that need to be resolved. If the unit has the banner at present it has Frnezy at present, if it doesn't have it, then this does not apply and part two becomes moot as they have no frenzy to lose.
Has is indeed present tense. However, once that unit "has" frenzy, they may "never" lose it. As I've made note of multiple times: "never" means "not ever": not if the banner leaves; not if they lose combat; not even if Khorne himself told them to chill.

Of course, as I've mentioned also, I agree that anyone who actually tried to play it as that rather than as the ever-so-clearly RAI version wherein the clause is simply to neuter the "lose combat = lose frenzy" equation is only describable through words this forum would interpret as a series of asterisks. I suppose you could say I'm simply playing the Devil's Advocate.

Capt._Jaelinek
08-05-2012, 13:19
Not intending to put sand in the Vaseline, but Witchbrew for the DE army has a similar issue. It's not frenzy, but the benefits of the brew only affect the unit that it starts with. If the Hag leaves the unit they cannot spread the benefits to another unit. RAI never meant for the Banner of Rage to be on a BSB hopping from unit to unit, but realistically how many units can be affected over the course of the game? It's only 4 max. Deployed in 1 unit, moves out turn 1. Turn 2 joins another unit. Turn 3 moves out, turn 4 joins another unit, etc. Also there are 3 turns the BSB is out in the open to be shot or magicked.

I just don't see how this breaks the game.

endzweck
08-05-2012, 13:40
Honestly, the amount of support I'm seeing in this thread for this "frenzy-spreading BSB" idea is shocking to me. I would love to see the crapstorm that would ensue if the supporters of this argument tried to pull this over on an opponent in a tournament. Come on guys

slaanghoul
08-05-2012, 14:07
Not intending to put sand in the Vaseline, but Witchbrew for the DE army has a similar issue. It's not frenzy, but the benefits of the brew only affect the unit that it starts with. If the Hag leaves the unit they cannot spread the benefits to another unit. RAI never meant for the Banner of Rage to be on a BSB hopping from unit to unit, but realistically how many units can be affected over the course of the game? It's only 4 max. Deployed in 1 unit, moves out turn 1. Turn 2 joins another unit. Turn 3 moves out, turn 4 joins another unit, etc. Also there are 3 turns the BSB is out in the open to be shot or magicked.

I just don't see how this breaks the game.

are you kidding me? If that banner can do that... the player with the banner will put all his characters in the unit with the BSB, then his army will more than likely have about 3- 4 unit horde style.... for only 35pt... his whole army is frenzy and never loose it. Come on man....

BloodiedSword
08-05-2012, 15:44
Honestly, the amount of support I'm seeing in this thread for this "frenzy-spreading BSB" idea is shocking to me. I would love to see the crapstorm that would ensue if the supporters of this argument tried to pull this over on an opponent in a tournament. Come on guys

This is the Rules forum, not that "how am I actually going to play the game" forum.

Rules can be interpreted (relatively) objectively, whereas how you actually play is a gentleman's agreement between you and your opponent. How are you supposed to know what rules to discuss and agree house rules for, if you don't know what the RAW reading of the rules is to begin with? That's inviting an ugly argument halfway through the game when you inevitably disagree.

endzweck
08-05-2012, 17:34
This is the Rules forum, not that "how am I actually going to play the game" forum.

Rules can be interpreted (relatively) objectively, whereas how you actually play is a gentleman's agreement between you and your opponent. How are you supposed to know what rules to discuss and agree house rules for, if you don't know what the RAW reading of the rules is to begin with? That's inviting an ugly argument halfway through the game when you inevitably disagree.

I didn't mean to try & start a debate on top of an already active debate here, so I'll just say that I didn't really realize that there was a difference.

Please don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you. The way my group plays is just as you describe, with a friendly agreement about what's what on the table / in the rules & playing in a way that allows both players / teams to have a good time. I've tried a few tournaments & I've found that they're not really how I like to play this game personally, but I was under the impression that a lot of the people who supported this ruling would accept it being used as such in a tournament. But do you think that two tournament opponents would agree to follow the RAI interpretation rather than RAW? I suppose it would come down to the specific players & the kinds of gamers they are.

geldedgoat
08-05-2012, 18:21
However, only one unit at a time can be so-called "perma-frenzied" because, while the Banner of Rage grants the special rule Frenzy (without caveats) to any unit that has it or has had it in the course of the game, there is a very specific qualifier for the perma-frenzy effect.

The red bit isn't in the rules. It's interesting that you would say that to begin with because you actually state the reason it's not in the rules in your very next line:


The wording of the Banner is read as : "The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule. They (the unit WITH the banner) will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat." If you don't meet the first part of the condition, in this case being the unit with the banner, you can't benefit from the second part, in this case keeping your Frenzy even if beaten in close combat.

If a unit has the banner, it has the frenzy rule. The unit with the banner will never lose this frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.

Take away the banner, the source of those rules, and what happens?

If a unit had the banner, it had the frenzy rule (but no longer does). The next part doesn't apply because the unit that previously had the banner no longer meets the criterion of being 'with the banner.'

That thing that makes them go from never being able to lose frenzy to being able to lose frenzy is the same thing that makes them go from being granted to frenzy to no longer being granted frenzy.

Jericho
08-05-2012, 18:36
WoC armies have access to Lore of Shadow, do they not?

Quoth the Futurama Mad Hatter robot: "CHANGE PLACES!"

I do believe that this is one of the sections of the WoC book that has needed a proper FAQ the most. Mark of Nurgle was never really that confusing to begin with, but they rewrite it entirely every 6 months for no reason. Meanwhile, if you have the BSB hopping units, getting zapped with Vaul's Unmaking, losing combat, etc. we still don't know how the Banner of Rage works. Hell, even just putting him in a cav unit causes arguments about whether the horses get +1A :mad:

shakedown47
08-05-2012, 20:23
The red bit isn't in the rules. It's interesting that you would say that to begin with because you actually state the reason it's not in the rules in your very next line:



If a unit has the banner, it has the frenzy rule. The unit with the banner will never lose this frenzy, even if beaten in close combat.

Take away the banner, the source of those rules, and what happens?

If a unit had the banner, it had the frenzy rule (but no longer does). The next part doesn't apply because the unit that previously had the banner no longer meets the criterion of being 'with the banner.'

That thing that makes them go from never being able to lose frenzy to being able to lose frenzy is the same thing that makes them go from being granted to frenzy to no longer being granted frenzy.

Geldegoat, I respect that you disagree with me and and that you think I was arbitrarily adding in wording to support my view, but I stick by it. In your view, "if a unit has the banner, it has Frenzy. If a unit had the banner, it had Frenzy (but no longer does.) Can you please reference all rules-supported ways of losing the Frenzy special rule? I was only able to find one, on page 70 of the BRB. I'm not saying that this reading of the RAW is popular or even intended or that I even would play this way, merely that it is the only rules-supported way of looking at it. As another poster said, this is the rules forum, not the gentlemen's agreement forum.

Lord Inquisitor
08-05-2012, 20:39
For me the most convincing argument is this:

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on."

Therefore other special rules cannot be "lost".

Now, in a circumstance where a BSB carries, say, the banner of eternal flame, this means the unit cannot "lose" the flaming attacks rule. What if he leaves the unit?

Clearly the rule is removed from the unit. They no longer have the source of the special rule. However, this means they cease to have the rule, as opposed to losing in the same fashion as Frenzy. The rule above, that rules other than Frenzy cannot be lost, clearly can't apply in the situation where the source of a special rule is removed. This is not what the line means. The alternative is that no special rule can be lost, ever! This is clearly not the case as can be quickly established by the presence of certain items/spells that cause "permanent" gain of certain special rules (e.g. the Slaanesh spell Acquiescence).

Assuming, therefore, there is a distinction between "losing" Frenzy and merely not having the rule anymore due to the source being removed, then I would argue that a unit which no longer has the Banner of Rage no longer has the source of the Frenzy rule and is no longer Frenzied.

geldedgoat
08-05-2012, 20:40
Can you please reference all rules-supported ways of losing the Frenzy special rule?

I already did, but here it is again: "The unit with this banner has the Frenzy special rule." There's no trick involved here; the unit loses frenzy in the same manner it gains it, with the banner. If the BSB carrying the banner leaves the unit, then the unit he becomes by himself will have the banner, and thus frenzy, while the unit that had the banner had frenzy, and no more. Why? Because of the very specific phrase the unit with this banner. And remember, the section on page 70 that keeps getting referenced is a less specific rule than the army book banner; bear that in mind when reading the very specific restrictions the banner rules establish.

But what about the second half of the rule? Well, you covered that yourself when you correctly identified the "hidden" qualifier: "They (the unit with the banner) will never lose their Frenzy, even if beaten in close combat."

Capt._Jaelinek
08-05-2012, 21:27
Does the eye of the gods rule include frenzy? Does the unit lose frenzy if you switch powers? I'm thinking war shrine here.

Also nearly every army has a broken combination of some sort. HE have Teclis and some other magic items. DE have unkillable dread lord, DoC have the guy that knows like every spell. Those players certainly use these to competitive advantage isn't that what building competitive lists is all about? Causal and friendly games are just that, but the hobby has those who want to exploit every advantage. As long as their opponents do the same the playing field is level and the game should be enjoyable.

I just haven't heard a convincing enough argument presented of how frenzy, once gained, is lost except by losing combat. I'm not a WoC player so this issue does not apply to me, I'm trying to be neutral to RAW.

Odin
08-05-2012, 21:43
That is my interpretation of the rules for Frenzy. The Losing Frenzy paragraph on page 70 is very clear that they retain Frenzy for the entire game unless beaten in combat. There is no difference between a unit who has Frenzy as an inherent ability or one granted from a spell or item. Frenzy is Frenzy, and must follow the rules for Frenzy on page 70.

A unit with the Frenzy rule does keep it for the entire game unless beaten in combat. But in this case we are talking about that unit losing the Frenzy rule. Once they lose the Frenzy rule, the rules of Frenzy on p70 are irrelevant.

HurrDurr
08-05-2012, 22:56
Does the eye of the gods rule include frenzy? Does the unit lose frenzy if you switch powers? I'm thinking war shrine here.

Also nearly every army has a broken combination of some sort. HE have Teclis and some other magic items. DE have unkillable dread lord, DoC have the guy that knows like every spell. Those players certainly use these to competitive advantage isn't that what building competitive lists is all about? Causal and friendly games are just that, but the hobby has those who want to exploit every advantage. As long as their opponents do the same the playing field is level and the game should be enjoyable.

I just haven't heard a convincing enough argument presented of how frenzy, once gained, is lost except by losing combat. I'm not a WoC player so this issue does not apply to me, I'm trying to be neutral to RAW.

After reading the quote on pg.3 that slaanghoul was generous enough to provide I'm convinced it doesn't persist through any circumstances other than the banner being in the unit. Never, anywhere, was the word gain (gain cleverly implying the current and future state of the unit(s) in question would be that they personally possess frenzy independently of the banner) ever used in the item description.

Lord Inquisitor also said it better than I think anyone has so far in his pink text.

There are rules that describe how a unit is considered to have a special rule, then there's the special rule itself and it's workings. If you don't have frenzy on your profile, then it's coming from a source. The source has to be present unless otherwise stated, it is not stated here because the description does not say gain.

xxRavenxx
08-05-2012, 23:08
Page 131 "Tower of blood" also offers insight into the idea that effects wear off when you walk away from the source.

BloodiedSword
08-05-2012, 23:26
For me the most convincing argument is this:

"Unlike other special rules, Frenzy can be lost as the game goes on."

Therefore other special rules cannot be "lost".

Now, in a circumstance where a BSB carries, say, the banner of eternal flame, this means the unit cannot "lose" the flaming attacks rule. What if he leaves the unit?

Clearly the rule is removed from the unit. They no longer have the source of the special rule. However, this means they cease to have the rule, as opposed to losing in the same fashion as Frenzy. The rule above, that rules other than Frenzy cannot be lost, clearly can't apply in the situation where the source of a special rule is removed. This is not what the line means. The alternative is that no special rule can be lost, ever! This is clearly not the case as can be quickly established by the presence of certain items/spells that cause "permanent" gain of certain special rules (e.g. the Slaanesh spell Acquiescence).

Assuming, therefore, there is a distinction between "losing" Frenzy and merely not having the rule anymore due to the source being removed, then I would argue that a unit which no longer has the Banner of Rage no longer has the source of the Frenzy rule and is no longer Frenzied.

While I can see the reasoning behind this argument, I'm of the opinion that one should try to read rules with the least interpretation necessary. So, any word that has a plain English meaning and isn't capitalised or otherwise defined as a special rule, I think the plain English meaning should be used.

So... for RAW, I don't really like interpretations that require a special interpretation of "losing" that doesn't mean what it means in plain English, and with no cited WH rule to back it up.

Iraf
08-05-2012, 23:41
I'd like to point out that my interpretation of Frenzy was pure RAW, and never RAI. And also that I was never of the mind that the "never lose Frenzy" ability granted from banner was transferable to units the BSB had been in prior. After reading many of the posts in this thread I'm much closer to the interpretation that Frenzy may be lost once the banner leaves the unit. I would also like to point out that even if the ability to give Frenzy to the WoC units was interpreted that way, the army would be far from broken. Frenzy on Tzeentch units would remove their 5+ Parry ability for one (which makes a WoC Tzeentch unit very durable). Also, having your whole army lead around by the nose is not exactly the best tactical advantage.

On a side note, it saddens me reading all the hate towards some of us who were just giving out interpretation of a rule, and in my case a rule that in no way affects my armies (Skaven/VC). Actually, the closest thing that this rule would affect me with is Skavenbrew, which has a chance to give a unit the character is with at the beginning of the game Frenzy. Now RAI for Skavenbrew, I would suggest that Frenzy does remain even if the character with Skavenbrew left later in the game. The only difference in wording for Skavenbrew is "unit is subject".

Sexiest_hero
09-05-2012, 00:07
Listen to the wisdom of Lord Inquisitor. If not this will lead to another Magical attacks vs Magic attacks, that was also a WoC issue aw was frenzy and mounts. You know what I'm glad WoC are the next book, It seems people have twisted this one all in knots.

slaanghoul
09-05-2012, 00:32
I'd like to point out that my interpretation of Frenzy was pure RAW, and never RAI. And also that I was never of the mind that the "never lose Frenzy" ability granted from banner was transferable to units the BSB had been in prior. After reading many of the posts in this thread I'm much closer to the interpretation that Frenzy may be lost once the banner leaves the unit. I would also like to point out that even if the ability to give Frenzy to the WoC units was interpreted that way, the army would be far from broken. Frenzy on Tzeentch units would remove their 5+ Parry ability for one (which makes a WoC Tzeentch unit very durable). Also, having your whole army lead around by the nose is not exactly the best tactical advantage.

On a side note, it saddens me reading all the hate towards some of us who were just giving out interpretation of a rule, and in my case a rule that in no way affects my armies (Skaven/VC). Actually, the closest thing that this rule would affect me with is Skavenbrew, which has a chance to give a unit the character is with at the beginning of the game Frenzy. Now RAI for Skavenbrew, I would suggest that Frenzy does remain even if the character with Skavenbrew left later in the game. The only difference in wording for Skavenbrew is "unit is subject".

I admire that you actually change your stance about this banner. I just wanted to also pointed out that I have never seen anybody played hopping BSB to gain the frenzy.... however, if this was allowed....I'm sure the player would tailored his list to gain maximum effect combo from the banner (mark of nurgle or even tzeentch great weapon). We would never seen anybody take mark of khorne because this banner would be cheaper and better because it can't loose the frenzy.

"Originally Posted by Capt._Jaelinek
Not intending to put sand in the Vaseline, but Witchbrew for the DE army has a similar issue. It's not frenzy, but the benefits of the brew only affect the unit that it starts with. If the Hag leaves the unit they cannot spread the benefits to another unit. RAI never meant for the Banner of Rage to be on a BSB hopping from unit to unit, but realistically how many units can be affected over the course of the game? It's only 4 max. Deployed in 1 unit, moves out turn 1. Turn 2 joins another unit. Turn 3 moves out, turn 4 joins another unit, etc. Also there are 3 turns the BSB is out in the open to be shot or magicked.

I just don't see how this breaks the game."

You got the moves wrong. (I don't even know why you take two turned to join each unit)
Turn 1 Undivided BSB w/ UNIT 1 chaos warriors M. Nurgle, General M. Nurgle. (perm. Frenzy) UNIT 2 Tzeentch great weapon Marauders on right side of UNIT 1. UNIT 3 Nurgle Knights right side of UNIT 2.
Turn 1 move... All units2 and unit3 moved forward (normal for chaos). BSB moved to join unit 2 (2 units are now perma frenzy)... Unit 1 moved forward.

Turn 2....BSB join Unit 3 nurgle knights (3 Perma frenzy in the army).

It is only Turn 2 and 3 units has Frenzy (better kind of frenzy than Khorne) - not to mentioned the combo of frenzy w/ other chaos marks.

So with out even thinking too much.. the BSB can give 3 units frenzy. The BSB is never alone or in open.

decker_cky
09-05-2012, 05:39
You got the moves wrong. (I don't even know why you take two turned to join each unit)
Turn 1 Undivided BSB w/ UNIT 1 chaos warriors M. Nurgle, General M. Nurgle. (perm. Frenzy) UNIT 2 Tzeentch great weapon Marauders on right side of UNIT 1. UNIT 3 Nurgle Knights right side of UNIT 2.
Turn 1 move... All units2 and unit3 moved forward (normal for chaos). BSB moved to join unit 2 (2 units are now perma frenzy)... Unit 1 moved forward.

Turn 2....BSB join Unit 3 nurgle knights (3 Perma frenzy in the army).

It is only Turn 2 and 3 units has Frenzy (better kind of frenzy than Khorne) - not to mentioned the combo of frenzy w/ other chaos marks.

So with out even thinking too much.. the BSB can give 3 units frenzy. The BSB is never alone or in open.

You can add extra units with lore of shadows too. Turn 1, move from unit A to unit B, then teleport to unit C and/or D in the magic phase. With two shadows wizards, you could have 4 frenzied units in a turn (smoke and mirrors is on every spell, not once per turn), and are likely to have at least 3.

Capt._Jaelinek
09-05-2012, 12:28
All right my mistake. I didnt realize a character could leave and join a unit in one turn. But both would forgo movement.

After reading Lord Inquistors post again I'm beginning to see the everyone's point more clearly. So I'm officially undecided at this point. I'll have to read up the BRB again.

Snake22486
12-05-2012, 07:51
can't believe this is still going on. Lord inquisitor summed it up perfectly.

Capt._Jaelinek
12-05-2012, 22:32
He did. I spent some time reading and found some other rules that are similar. So I concur that frenzy can be lost by the banner leaving the unit.

Urgat
13-05-2012, 00:24
havent used the banner yet but was thinking of useing it this way, was asking every1 here if this is acceptable or not, dont accuse me of cheating

So you want to know if we find it acceptable? Someone tries and pull that one on me, I quit on the spot. That's how acceptable it is for me. I hope this answer is satisfactory. I dislike the use of loopholes when they clearly are just that.

TheDarkDaff
15-05-2012, 08:52
Every armybook has items with loop holes like that but i would personally not play that way. I could even use your own arguement to make the ASF and AP special rules permanent from the Banner of Hag Graef and Banner of Murder as they state the unit containing them "gains" the respective special rule.

So lets put it this way. Your army may all have frenzy, but all my Dark Elves will have ASF and i know which i would rather have.