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View Full Version : Kroxigors in a mixed unit of skinks, can they stomp?



Blkc57
02-05-2012, 06:36
So I understand the FAQ, a unit of mixed Krox and skinks can't be stomped or thunder stomped because by mixing in the Krox the skinks are no longer an infantry unit but are now a unique mixed unit. My question is if enough skinks are killed that a Krox gets pushed up to the front rank can the Krox perform a stomp? Some argue yes because the stomp is a function of the model, others watching the game say no for the same reason that the skinks are protected by stomp. When the unit type is changed it is also changed for the Krox, thus they are no longer monsterous infantry but now a mixed unit and no longer benefit from rules such as stomp that are a function of the monsterous infantry unit type. It spurred a heated debate and in the end we diced off for it, but it confused me enough to seek the advice of Warseer on what they think the answer might be.

someone2040
02-05-2012, 06:44
The Kroxigor model is still monstrous infantry and gets all the Monstrous Infantry special rules.
Just the 'unit' itself has a type of Unique.
So my oppinion is the Kroxigor can still stomp. If it can't, it shouldn't get 3 attacks from the second rank either as Monstrous Support is a Monstrous Infantry special rule, and not a special rule of the unit.

Blkc57
02-05-2012, 07:01
Supporting attacks didn't exist when the lizardman book was written, they got their attacks because they have a rule called Great Reach that let them attack behind skinks. But I understand what you are saying about the stomp being a function of the model, that was the arguement of the pro-stomp crowd. The arguement of the Anti-stomp faction was that the unit type of the model changed when the entire unit changed to unique. Personally I am beginning to side with the pro-stomp group, it just seems silly that a Krox would forget how to throw his wieght around simply because a skink is standing nearby.

Spinocus
02-05-2012, 11:47
Per the BRB a model capable of Stomping/Thunderstomping needs to be in base to base contact with an enemy model in order to squash it under their feet so no, no stompage for Kroxigors in the 2nd row of a Skrox unit. Now if the Skinks in that Skrox unit are so depleted that a Kroxigor model(s) must be placed in the front row in order to achieve a full rank then yes, it can stomp. Basically whenever a Kroxigor finds itself in base to base contact with an enemy model capable of being stomped then it can stomp it!

Mercules
02-05-2012, 11:47
The answer is in the Stomp rule itself. It says, "A Model with...". Korigors are Monstrous Infantry and have the rule. The model's type doesn't change. The reason they can not be Stomped in return is that the Stomp rule goes on to state they may target a unit of a specific type and the unit type is 'unique'.

T10
02-05-2012, 12:35
The FAQ makes the assumption that there is a rule that makes units of models of mixed troop types "Unique".

I can sort of understand where this idea comes from. After all, stomp and thunderstomp can only be used against units of specific troop types, and only units of specific troop types can garrison buildings, so there is a presumption that one can assign a troop type to units. Surely it is safe to call a unit that consists only of infantry models for a unit of infantry? And a unit of mixed troop types must surely be... unique?

I'd like to vent some of my ire at this brokenness, but I've already done so:

But the FAQ...! It's WRONG! (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?321521-quot-But-the-FAQ-!-It-s-WRONG-quot)

-T10

GodlessM
02-05-2012, 13:02
It is sort of a moot point anyway since the Krox will nearly always be in the second rank.

Retro
11-05-2012, 04:21
Per the BRB a model capable of Stomping/Thunderstomping needs to be in base to base contact with an enemy model in order to squash it under their feet so no, no stompage for Kroxigors in the 2nd row of a Skrox unit. Now if the Skinks in that Skrox unit are so depleted that a Kroxigor model(s) must be placed in the front row in order to achieve a full rank then yes, it can stomp. Basically whenever a Kroxigor finds itself in base to base contact with an enemy model capable of being stomped then it can stomp it!

Your right on the Stomping/Thunderstomping needs to be in base to base contact. But the Lizzie book says, Krox in a base contact with skink of its own unit which in turn is base contact with a enemy, then the Krox is counted as been in base contact with that enemy. So you get stomp in the back. Also cause you a monster Inf, you get all attacks in the supporting rank

Blkc57
11-05-2012, 06:08
Your right on the Stomping/Thunderstomping needs to be in base to base contact. But the Lizzie book says, Krox in a base contact with skink of its own unit which in turn is base contact with a enemy, then the Krox is counted as been in base contact with that enemy. So you get stomp in the back. Also cause you a monster Inf, you get all attacks in the supporting rank

That section was removed in the Lizardmen errata, Retro. But it remained a facinating conundrum caused by the FAQ designation that a mixed unit is unique. In the end I came to the conclusion that while the unit designation changed, the model's individual rules did not. The exercise in Krox Stomping was more for my own intelectual curiosity than a major rules debate, since in the end it was just diced for anyway.

Eyrenthaal
21-05-2012, 20:13
Ive been following the thread.. Cant say that i follow gw logic but..

What if You're in challenge with character in mix skink/krox unit? Do You get to stomp?

Scalebug
21-05-2012, 22:50
Ive been following the thread.. Cant say that i follow gw logic but..

What if You're in challenge with character in mix skink/krox unit? Do You get to stomp?

Or for that challenge, even if you are not in a challenge, and just directs attacks at the "stompable" character, for that matter...

A cautious "yeees...?" I would say.

For: You are directing your attacks at either the unit or the character (in fact nothing but the character if it is a challenge), when attacking. A Faq answer specifically notes that you can't direct your stomps at other things than your challenge...

Against: ...which is the possibly contradicted by:


Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.

But that would mean you would almost never get to stop characters, unless the unit is down to less than five models... do people play it that way? Or do we take that answer to just regard thing like "gives a 5+ ward save against close combat attacks" and similar?

Laydoth
23-05-2012, 09:14
Challenges shouldn't be an issue with Skrox units, Characters can't join unique units unless given specific rules to do so, such as Greyseers on a Screaming Bell. There's no such rule for Skrox so they should never contain characters.




But that would mean you would almost never get to stop characters, unless the unit is down to less than five models... do people play it that way? Or do we take that answer to just regard thing like "gives a 5+ ward save against close combat attacks" and similar?

It says distributed as a shooting attack, not treated as a shooting attack. To me that means you can only target the rank and file and would have to role for ridden monsters / warbeast packs to see who is hit. But only special rules regarding close combat would apply to damage and saves.

excessiveswagger
24-05-2012, 09:10
Does this mean if my Orc warlord on a boar joins an infantry unit the whole unit is immune to stomp as well?

T10
24-05-2012, 11:04
I'd say it means that the FAQ is wrong (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?321521-quot-But-the-FAQ-!-It-s-WRONG-quot), but yeah:

If you have a cavalry model in an infantry int then that unit contains a mix of models of different troop types. According to the FAQ this means the unit's troop type is "unique".

-T10

Grocklock
24-05-2012, 13:25
i was just looking over the army book and it says in the great reach rule, that a krox in base contact with a sink who is in base contact with the enemy counts as being in base contact with the same enemy,
the stomp ruels says that if a krox is in base contact with an enemy then they may do a stomp attack

Artiee
24-05-2012, 13:30
i was just looking over the army book and it says in the great reach rule, that a krox in base contact with a sink who is in base contact with the enemy counts as being in base contact with the same enemy,
the stomp ruels says that if a krox is in base contact with an enemy then they may do a stomp attack

Lizardman FAQ:
Page 53, 97 – Kroxigors, Great Reach
Ignore this special rule.


So Krox are not in base contact. As already stated earlier, Great Reach was given to allow the krox to attack. In 8th ed. the 2nd rank gets attack so the great reach rule is no long needed. Since they are not in base contact they do not get a stomp attack.

JDV311
24-05-2012, 13:51
Chaos trolls...vomit attack from second rank. Any relevance to the post?

Artiee
24-05-2012, 14:14
No. The FAQ for WOC changed the vomit rule from base contact, to those able to attack or do supporting attack. The OnG troll state it in the new book.

N810
24-05-2012, 14:29
"if enough skinks are killed that a Krox gets pushed up to the front rank can the Krox perform a stomp"

Yes, Kroxigors in the front rank are allowed to stomp.

and Kroxigor are only allowed in the front when there are no other snkinks in the other ranks,
and there are enough dead skinks that one or more kroxigor may move to the front rank.
(as illuistrated in the Lizardmen army book)

Keep in mind the FAQ and Eratta.

Ps. there are only a handfull of unique units, mostly in Lizardmen and Skaven armies. This in one of them.
having a character join a unit does not make it unique.

T10
24-05-2012, 19:05
Ps. there are only a handfull of unique units, mostly in Lizardmen and Skaven armies. This in one of them.
having a character join a unit does not make it unique.

I'd like a page reference for that, because I don't believe you.

Troop types are assigned on a model-by-model basis, and models being designated as characters or non-characters is quite a seaparate issue from their troop-type designation.

N810
24-05-2012, 20:01
I Think it is on the pages listing all troops types for all armies.

T10
25-05-2012, 05:13
Those pages list the troop types of the individual models and do not assign troop types to units (though in all fairness: most units are made up of a uniform collection of models).

-T10

Soundwave
26-05-2012, 17:31
Stomp only for the guys in base contact so unless you want to tread on your skinks then no.Also applies for monstrous infantry in ranks also.

Mercules
27-05-2012, 03:44
Stomp only for the guys in base contact so unless you want to tread on your skinks then no.Also applies for monstrous infantry in ranks also.

Hey look... someone who can't be bothered to read the thread but feels the need to comment.


The original post:

So I understand the FAQ, a unit of mixed Krox and skinks can't be stomped or thunder stomped because by mixing in the Krox the skinks are no longer an infantry unit but are now a unique mixed unit. My question is if enough skinks are killed that a Krox gets pushed up to the front rank can the Krox perform a stomp? Some argue yes because the stomp is a function of the model, others watching the game say no for the same reason that the skinks are protected by stomp. When the unit type is changed it is also changed for the Krox, thus they are no longer monsterous infantry but now a mixed unit and no longer benefit from rules such as stomp that are a function of the monsterous infantry unit type. It spurred a heated debate and in the end we diced off for it, but it confused me enough to seek the advice of Warseer on what they think the answer might be.

Bold emphasis is mine.

N810
27-05-2012, 05:06
Bold emphasis is mine.
Yes, Kroxigors in the front rank are allowed to stomp.

T10
27-05-2012, 09:31
Hey look... someone who can't be bothered to read the thread but feels the need to comment.


The answer was correct (though the "unless you want to tread on your skinks then no" was unnecessary: You do not have such an option.): Kroxigors have the Stomp special rule through their model's troop type. The "unique troop type of the unit" (blergh!) does not change the troop type of the individual models in the unit. To use the Stomp special rule the model needs to be in (actual!) base contact with an enemy model.

-T10

Mercules
29-05-2012, 11:44
I know the answer was correct but was totally unneeded as the OP didn't ask if Kroxigor NOT in base contact could stomp.


First person asks a question and gives it a qualifier. Then someone comes along and states that the qualifier works. No kidding, that would be why he qualified it. He understands that part.