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HOGGLORD
03-05-2012, 17:51
I just decided to start playing Fantasy (though I've played 40k for a good 6 years) and I'm gonna make an empire army. I thought that 10 handgunners for £15.50 was pretty good, then I saw the army book was £25! Why is it so expensive? I am under the impression that the only reason it's so expensive is because of loads of colorful pictures purely put in place to add to the price and the fact its a bloody hardback! Why do they need that? I found the fact that they were paperbacks to be helpful, it makes them more portable, if that's their newest excuse to squeeze a little more cash out then they are stooping to an all new low.
Don't get me wrong, I like the GW artwork and fluff, it makes the game more interesting, but I hope it's not the only reason they added to the price.

Ville
03-05-2012, 17:57
I like the fact that my new armybook is hardback and pretty. What I don't like are the recycled artwork (albeit in colour) and stories from the previous book.

vinush
03-05-2012, 18:09
The hardback army books are great. They feel much sturdier than the old softcovers did, and hardback allows for better binding compared to the softcovers, which I understand a lot of people have had huge issues with.

I myself went through two copies of 6th edition VC army book due to the binding falling apart, and the same of last edition's empire book, and almost had to consider a third if the new book hadn't come out as it was falling apart. this means that if they last a full cycle in hardback, then I'm quids in compared to having to buy three copies of an army book over the lifetime of the cycle.

THE \/ince

Malorian
03-05-2012, 18:15
Poor people are typically uneducated and have no grasp of tactics. GW makes their products expensive for the good of the game.

:shifty:

DaemonReign
03-05-2012, 18:16
GW stuff is 'expensive' mostly because the folks writing these rules, making these models, are real people living in a developed country with bills of their own to pay. The fact that they try to give us something extra, like real hardback quality, is really nothing we should be pissy about.

decker_cky
03-05-2012, 18:18
Isn't the empire new book largely new art,and true full colour unlike the O&G book?

loveless
03-05-2012, 18:51
GW wanted to revitalize Warhammer Fantasy. They did this by making the core rulebook massive and more expensive and by making the army books full-color, hard-backed, and more expensive. Clearly this allows them to attract far more players into the game - after all, if the rules cost that much, the game must be amazing!

DaemonReign
03-05-2012, 18:59
I'm not getting all the irony.
Everything in the Western Hemisphere is 'overcosted' for crist's sake.

The Low King
03-05-2012, 19:03
The new books are much better than the old ones, both because of the book and the rules (wich are more balanced).

If GW want to charge more for this then im fine with that.

dimetri1
03-05-2012, 22:03
First let me say the new books are great for the hobby. I don't think they are to expensive(unless you live down under, you are getting ripped off). Many people enjoy fluff, art and pictures. For me I find fluff painfully boring to read and I don't pay attention to the artwork. I would much prefer a small book with just the rules. That is just me though.

EmperorNorton
03-05-2012, 22:17
The hardback army books are great. They feel much sturdier than the old softcovers did, and hardback allows for better binding compared to the softcovers, which I understand a lot of people have had huge issues with.

I myself went through two copies of 6th edition VC army book due to the binding falling apart, and the same of last edition's empire book, and almost had to consider a third if the new book hadn't come out as it was falling apart. this means that if they last a full cycle in hardback, then I'm quids in compared to having to buy three copies of an army book over the lifetime of the cycle.

THE \/ince

This pseudo-argument is a pet hate of mine.
It's perfectly possible for a softcover to have good binding. GW chose for their softcovers to have poor binding, most likely because it was cheaper for them. The obvious solution to this issue would have been to use proper binding, but instead they switched to more expensive hardcovers - increasing their profits in the process - and there actually are people who are thankful for it.

When I bought the last edition of the Empire army book, it cost me 18€ (and I suppose the writers were living in a developed county back then, too). The new one is almost twice as much at 32,50€ and it has exactly the same function and, in fact, a lot of the same content.

Why
03-05-2012, 22:46
Yeah I will just wait until they come out on Scribd, unless it's a new wood elf book, if we ever get one:(

Most of the same content for almost double the price, I think I have a good reason to be angry. They just decided to be cheap and use bad binding with the old books. Not much has changed because my 8th edition hard cover BRB has been repaired twice because the binding is falling apart, so I guess they are still using cheap binding.

Lance Tankmen
03-05-2012, 22:52
my 8th edition BRB has its bindings falling apart too... makes me sad

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 00:32
This pseudo-argument is a pet hate of mine.
So tell us how you really feel. ;)

I have to agree with EmperorNorton on this one. Short of the Lord of the Rings price gouging this is one of the more obvious profit ploys on GW's part in the last year. The new books are pretty, but they're certainly not $41 pretty, especially given that just 3 years ago I was paying $20 for almost the same content.

Maskedman5oh4
04-05-2012, 00:37
Do you people purchase gasoline or fly around on Discs of Tzeentch? Haters gonna hate.

Go hate on BP for a while and their massive profits. Maybe you can get your government to subsidize your wargaming- or you could get a better job.

GodlessM
04-05-2012, 00:38
So people complain for years that Army Books and Codices alike are falling apart and need to be sturdier, and then when they make them so people still complain?

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 00:46
Do you people purchase gasoline or fly around on Discs of Tzeentch? Haters gonna hate.
What?


So people complain for years that Army Books and Codices alike are falling apart and need to be sturdier, and then when they make them so people still complain?
Not everyone complained. More importantly your argument apparently ignores the fact that along with "what we asked for" we also got a 30% price increase.

"Excuse me, my steak is undercooked. Could you please get me another?"
"Certainly sir"
...
"Waiter, there seems to be a problem with my bill. You charged me more for my steak."
"We had to cook it twice."
"I don't understand"
"WE GAVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED? WTF ARE YOU MAD FOR??!!!"

Unfortunately for our case, there is no steak involved.

sturguard
04-05-2012, 00:54
I have one of the new Ogre books and the binding on it as well as my 8th edition hardback ruleset are failing (and I dont play very often, perhaps 3 times a month). While I agree they are sturdier than the paperback, for the much cheaper price you could always hole punch the army book when the binding fell apart and put it in a binder (and save the extra $20). As Lord Dan explained, I think lots of people were asking for a better quality product at the same or close to the same price. I am quite sure GW would make a slightly better version for $100 a book if everyone was okay paying it, they might even add a few new pictures in the book as well. Honestly though, how many times do you read the fluff and look at the pictures. I enjoyed reading the book once through, but can't say I have read anything but the army options since.

Malorian
04-05-2012, 00:57
People brough it on themselves. I buy every army book that comes out for both 40k and fantasy. Do you know how many failed at the binding? ZERO!

Why? Because I take care with my books. I don't open all the wat flat, I don't press them flat, I don't stuff them full of papers and force them closed. In short, I treated my books with care and low and behold they didn't fall apart.

With the hard bound books I'm getting no personal advantage since I took care of them anyway, but to me I'm still happy with paying more for a professional looking book.

MooseOnTheLoose
04-05-2012, 01:00
GW wanted to revitalize Warhammer Fantasy. They did this by making the core rulebook massive and more expensive and by making the army books full-color, hard-backed, and more expensive. Clearly this allows them to attract far more players into the game - after all, if the rules cost that much, the game must be amazing!

Despite your sarcastic joke with this post, isn't kinda ironic this is the best set of core and so far army book additions for gameplay...

lbecks
04-05-2012, 01:23
So people complain for years that Army Books and Codices alike are falling apart and need to be sturdier, and then when they make them so people still complain?

... and charge more.

Rogue
04-05-2012, 01:37
All speculation on my part, but how else would GW get their due from veteran gamers unless they upped the antie to play in the current edition? Veterans already bought the models needed to play so GW is not going to get significantly that much more from veteran players. Concerning new players, they just don't have a frame of reference as to how expensive auxillery items like books have become.

I am well aware that the counter point to this statement is that a new edition is going to have new armybooks and you would still have to pay to play no matter what. However that argument looses credibility with me when I bought two army books ($20 each) seven years ago for the price of one today. That old price of $20 was by the way the same amount as they were back in 1994 when not only they first sold armybooks, but when I started playing. As mentioned before everything but the rules are recycled so they are not paying for new GW product. The hardback is an added expense but not enough to justify double the price.

Maskedman5oh4
04-05-2012, 02:07
Bread costs more, along with milk, electricity, clothing and property.

I need those things to live.

If I cannot afford to purchase little plastic army men this month, then I don't. But I also don't complain about it.

This forum emulates the crowd that plays 40k and Fantasy nowadays; younger people that gripe incessantly when they cannot get what they want or provide it for themselves.

Grow up- it is called a budget; make one or shut up.

Regarding the thread topic : The army books are more expensive because they are larger and better. Durrrr.

loveless
04-05-2012, 02:08
How do people treat their books that the bindings fall apart? I am honestly curious, given that I haven't had a paperback fall apart on me in nearly 10 years (though the back page of my Warriors of Chaos book is a little loose).

I like my core rules in hardcover, my army rules (the thing I'm using to build a list) in paperback. It's a fair bit easier for me to flip through when I'm referencing things, in my opinion.

I still say they should have done a mix of hardcover and softcover army books and see which one sold more. Some die-hard army fans or the people who kept "breaking" their paperbacks would have likely bought the hardcover (heck, I might have for some of the armies), while those of us who don't bust our softcover books could get a little bit of a break for knowing how to take care of things :p

Eh, whatever though - the books aren't worth $41 by any stretch of the imagination. Luckily you can find them for around $31 with online discounters - which takes the price from "jawbreaker" to "horse pill" in terms of swallow-ability ;) I'm a lot more selective with book purchases - GW's successfully taken me from buying every army book to next to no army books. I'm sure they're making a killing off of that switch! I couldn't pick up the Empire book - I flipped through a store copy and...ugh...just not worth it when I don't know if I want to pursue that army or not.



Regarding the thread topic : The army books are more expensive because they are larger and better. Durrrr.

If you must whine like a child about people trying to comprehend GW's book pricing, at least get your facts correct.

The Empire book is 96 pages.
The Vampire Counts book is 96 pages.
The Ogre Kingdoms book is 96 pages.
The Tomb Kings book is 96 pages.
The Orcs & Goblins book is 112 pages.

In comparison:
The Beastmen book is 96 pages.
The Bretonnian book is 80 pages.
The Daemons book is 96 pages.
The Dark Elf book is 104 pages.
The Dwarf book is 80 pages.
The High Elf book is 104 pages.
The Lizardmen book is 104 pages.
The Skaven book is 112 pages.
The Warriors of Chaos book is 128 pages.
The Wood Elf book is 80 pages.

Tell me again how the books are getting bigger. Outside of the 6th edition books and the O&G book, the hardcovers are on the short end of army books.

sturguard
04-05-2012, 02:10
Malorian,
I don't need a lesson on taking care of books, I am 42 and have a bookshelf full of book from when I was in my teens. I didn't bring anything on myself, the binding simply isnt the quality it could be, especially for the price. I'll use my hardbark Lord of the Rings book which I have read dozens of times over the years, is still in near mint condition and cost around $40 years ago when I purchased it.

Maskedman5oh4
04-05-2012, 02:45
Malorian,
I don't need a lesson on taking care of books, I am 42 and have a bookshelf full of book from when I was in my teens. I didn't bring anything on myself, the binding simply isnt the quality it could be, especially for the price. I'll use my hardbark Lord of the Rings book which I have read dozens of times over the years, is still in near mint condition and cost around $40 years ago when I purchased it.

Dozens? Like 24 (first applicable for dozens)? Which part have you been cast in plays of LoTR? :rolleyes:

When I wear shoes often and they are no longer acceptable- I buy new shoes! I don't find someplace to complain about how they should have lasted for 3 more years on an internet forum.

Guess what- Warhammer (fantasy and 40k) is a game. You can survive withouth it. If you can't, please don't make me read about it.

Maybe you should just go read your mint copy of LoTR again... :eyebrows:

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 02:52
If you must whine like a child about people trying to comprehend GW's book pricing, at least get your facts correct.

The Empire book is 96 pages.
The Vampire Counts book is 96 pages.
The Ogre Kingdoms book is 96 pages.
The Tomb Kings book is 96 pages.
The Orcs & Goblins book is 112 pages.

In comparison:
The Beastmen book is 96 pages.
The Bretonnian book is 80 pages.
The Daemons book is 96 pages.
The Dark Elf book is 104 pages.
The Dwarf book is 80 pages.
The High Elf book is 104 pages.
The Lizardmen book is 104 pages.
The Skaven book is 112 pages.
The Warriors of Chaos book is 128 pages.
The Wood Elf book is 80 pages.

Tell me again how the books are getting bigger. Outside of the 6th edition books and the O&G book, the hardcovers are on the short end of army books.

Thanks for that page breakdown, Loveless. I've suspected the new books were about the same length, but haven't seen any numbers to support those assumptions.

Maskedman5oh4
04-05-2012, 02:55
Fair point, loveless.

decker_cky
04-05-2012, 03:32
So tell us how you really feel. ;)

I have to agree with EmperorNorton on this one. Short of the Lord of the Rings price gouging this is one of the more obvious profit ploys on GW's part in the last year. The new books are pretty, but they're certainly not $41 pretty, especially given that just 3 years ago I was paying $20 for almost the same content.

Except...it's not $20 more for the hard cover and full cover, it's $8 more. And in my opinion, the quality is worth that over what we were already paying $33 for.

vinush
04-05-2012, 05:04
Since some people seem to be comparing what we use to pay for army books to what we now pay, I remember when the army books cost £8 to buy. There was no outrage when they went up to £10, the same again when they went to £12, then £15, then £18. Everyone who I play with are happy paying the £25 for the hardbacks. They feel amazing, look good and are an essential part of the hobby.

As for suggesting I don't know how to look after a book, you don't know me, likewise I don't know you. I don't make insults towards you or judge you based on one comment on here, so please show me the same courtesy. I know perfectly well how to look after a book, but the fact of the matter is the bindings on the old books simply couldn't take weekly war gaming.

THE \/ince

Dranthar
04-05-2012, 06:02
GW stuff is 'expensive' mostly because the folks writing these rules, making these models, are real people living in a developed country with bills of their own to pay.

Very true, but GW should really be saving on costs by moving their operation to a 3rd world country with lower wages and less stringent labor laws.

Like the US... ;)

Seriously though, as someone living in Australia the cost of the army books seem pretty excessive. I like the bump in quality (lets face it - it was needed when you compare it to other wargames companies), but if it wasn't so expensive, I would have rebought my O&G and VC army books without hesitation, despite not having played in almost 2 years.

TheDungen
04-05-2012, 07:33
In a growing competition agaisnt digital games (computer games video games) gamesworkshop either lose sales or fear losing sales (other, sorry of the expression, toy companies such as lego ect have experienced this decline massivly, even if gw isnt in such a decline currently, not saying they're not just that i dont know, they have no way of knowing if they will be next year) and as such the increase their prices, this is not a matter of greed, its a matter of survival. very little if any of the money will ever end up with the shareholders a companies profit is a buffert agaisnt future unexpected expsenses and bad times.

shelfunit.
04-05-2012, 08:52
Why are the army books so expensive? Simple answer is because people still buy them and will keep buying them, for some regardless of how much they cost. The one and only way GW will reduce the prices of the books (and any of their other products for that matter) is if they experience a sudden, massive drop off of sales - not the 5-10% annual drop their figures have been showing for the last few years, but a noticable slump that overrides their annual price hike by a fair margin.

Askari
04-05-2012, 09:29
I quite like the new hardback books, they look far more professional and are just nice to have, the prices aren't too much, especially if you're buying non-direct. I got my new Empire army book for £20, when Codex: Tau back when that was released what 10 years ago cost me about £12 if I remember right, £8 more for a hardback book after 10 years of inflation sounds pretty good actually.

Mentat Bashar
04-05-2012, 09:47
Bindings that fell off? What did you DO to your books? Seriously though, I have to poetically express that I agree to a degree - the books are getting more expensive while still having basically the same content and size. Although as Malorian said, they DO look more professional, and I no longer need to weigh them down with a rock to keep them open on a certain page.

But it must be said, with Warhammer my thinking has always been "well, the hobby is expensive, but once you commit their worth pays back in multiples", meaning that once you start playing, the money you've spent pays back in hours having lots of good relaxed painting sessions or hearty, godless fun with your mates moving those plastic buggers around. BUT. That equation seems (to me at least) be at risk now when new editions pop up more often and whoops! Your book must be traded in for a newer, more expensive book ("But oh look at all the PRETTY PICTURES!!").

jedideinos
04-05-2012, 09:56
Looking at the book trade in general, £25 compared to £20 doesn't seem too bad. Down the local Waterstones, it's around the £18 mark for a hardback, and around £8 for a paperback: the hardback is more than double the paperback.
I quite like the new hardbacks. Will I be buying a copy of each? No. I used to, then realised the cost. If 40K goes the same way, then I'll stop buying every Codex as well.

Lord Solar Plexus
04-05-2012, 10:18
I'm not getting all the irony.
Everything in the Western Hemisphere is 'overcosted' for crist's sake.

Don't be ridiculous, DaemonReign. First of all, how did you find out? Honestly, what's the criterion? Certainly not a comparison with other similar products when everything is overcosted a priori. Secondly, it's not true. Bread, butter, food and drink, clothes, cars, films, computers and games, internet and phone, books and a visit to the zoo are all reasonably priced and affordable even on a small budget where I live. And, as it happens, I live in the Western Hemisphere.

Thirdly, if you were indeed right, that doesn't sound like a good reason for consumers to be happy about it. What is there not to get about that?



Do you people purchase gasoline or fly around on Discs of Tzeentch? Haters gonna hate.


Platitude alert! Propagandists gonna propagate...and with all due respect but to demand to stfu and just accept everything the offering side on the market says and does or be called a hater is very close to blatant, biased, unsubtle propaganda.

You may have noticed that people aren't particularly glad about the increase in fuel and energy prices either. Perhaps you are different. Perhaps you prefer rising prices, the steeper the better, no matter prices, everyone can just become a millionaire? Either way, how in the world does the price of gasoline justify the price or price increase of a book? Does printing in China and shipping them here add cost? I don't think so.



If I cannot afford to purchase little plastic army men this month, then I don't. But I also don't complain about it.


I wonder who made you our role model. And I wonder why asking a question has to be met with the strongest terms possible.

theshoveller
04-05-2012, 12:12
Tell me again how the books are getting bigger. Outside of the 6th edition books and the O&G book, the hardcovers are on the short end of army books.
Which we can translate as, "ignoring the evidence that doesn't support my argument"...

By your own numbers, the hardcovers are pretty much bang in the middle point between the longer mid-period 7th edition books and the much shorter 6th edition ones. The late period 7th books are 96 pages. The O&G book is the second longest book still in print.

T10
04-05-2012, 13:12
Edit: Posted in wrong thread.

Relevant Content: Army books are great!

-T10

Paladin21
04-05-2012, 13:21
I think some of the binding things people are debating might have to do with where you live. Here in the southern US, the softcover bindings melt in the summer...literally. If the local game store ordered copies in July/August we could pull them out of the delivery boxes, hold the book up, and all the pages would fall out. Same thing if you left it in your car on accident or something like that.

Orrinocco
04-05-2012, 14:11
£8 more for a hardback book after 10 years of inflation sounds pretty good actually.

Have you seen the rate of inflation for books over the past 10 years? I'm sure its not been that much for what I buy from my local bookstore

Malorian
04-05-2012, 14:23
Have you seen the rate of inflation for books over the past 10 years? I'm sure its not been that much for what I buy from my local bookstore

Depends, are we talking about University study books?

*wallet remembers and cries*

ColShaw
04-05-2012, 14:49
All I know is, if the 8th Ed Orcs & Goblins book had been softcover and $22, I'd have bought it. Hardcover and $37.50? Nope. Being lukewarm on 8th Ed in the first place, I just decided to leave the Orcs on the shelf a while longer.

That is not GW's intention, I hope.

I did look through the book, and I did want it, I just couldn't justify the price.

Grocklock
04-05-2012, 14:51
What?


Not everyone complained. More importantly your argument apparently ignores the fact that along with "what we asked for" we also got a 30% price increase.

"Excuse me, my steak is undercooked. Could you please get me another?"
"Certainly sir"
...
"Waiter, there seems to be a problem with my bill. You charged me more for my steak."
"We had to cook it twice."
"I don't understand"
"WE GAVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED? WTF ARE YOU MAD FOR??!!!"

Unfortunately for our case, there is no steak involved.

What are GW supposed to do they gave you a better product, and not charge you more for it, when apple broughy out the ipad 2 they increased the price did they not, but when gw does it suddenly its a problem.

The problem with the hardback books falling apasrt is due to the way you treat the books pushing the pages flat slidding lists between the pages so that when it closes it puts presure on the binding,

I was at a tordement and watched as my opponent said how bad the binding was on his book, as he then slide the small rule book between it pages and closed it to placing his elbow on it to rest his head.

loveless
04-05-2012, 14:55
Depends, are we talking about University study books?

*wallet remembers and cries*

Though I would probably be more likely to buy GW hardcover messes if:
1) I could buy them used for cheaper
2) I could sell them back when I was done with them
:p


All I know is, if the 8th Ed Orcs & Goblins book had been softcover and $22, I'd have bought it. Hardcover and $37.50? Nope. Being lukewarm on 8th Ed in the first place, I just decided to leave the Orcs on the shelf a while longer.

That is not GW's intention, I hope.

I did look through the book, and I did want it, I just couldn't justify the price.

I think there's a subconscious trigger that makes you reconsider buying these things at a certain price point. For army books, it was probably the $35 mark. Seeing $41 on them now just sends all the wrong "value for money" arguments into my head. I'd rather spend the extra $6 and get a box of Vargheists, but I can't really use them without the book...ah well, I suppose I'll deal with it :p

Malorian
04-05-2012, 15:01
Though I would probably be more likely to buy GW hardcover messes if:
1) I could buy them used for cheaper
2) I could sell them back when I was done with them
:p


eBay works for both ;)

Although you get people like me that buy new because we're allergic to money :p

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 15:13
What are GW supposed to do they gave you a better product, and not charge you more for it, when apple broughy out the ipad 2 they increased the price did they not, but when gw does it suddenly its a problem.
Probably a bad example, but the iPad 2 was exactly the same price as the original iPad. Apple knows that finding a price point (in this case $800) and sticking to it is the best way to retain customers, which is why they're currently the most profitable company in the world.

To your point I have two problems with GW giving us a "better" product. First of all, it's a forced sale. If GW had offered us a softcover book for a certain price, and offered the option of a hardcover at a 25% higher price I would take no issue. I do not see the value in the hardcover books that others do, mostly because as was mentioned on the last page the softcover books are already overpriced at $33. To your apple example it would be like if apple changed the cover of their iPads to a more durable material like platinum, and passed to the cost off to customers by charging significantly more (at a profit, of course).


The problem with the hardback books falling apasrt is due to the way you treat the books pushing the pages flat slidding lists between the pages so that when it closes it puts presure on the binding, I was at a tordement and watched as my opponent said how bad the binding was on his book, as he then slide the small rule book between it pages and closed it to placing his elbow on it to rest his head.
I agree that the binding on the older books was poor (my DE book is currently in a binder), however as this was a problem with their product I feel GW should have adopted some alternative binding practices to give us a better book for about the same price. Instead they raised the price of softcover books from $22 to $33 to mask the fact that the new $41 hardcovers are twice the cost of the old army books, which I do not feel is reflected in the value of the book.

Shimmergloom
04-05-2012, 15:20
my 8th edition BRB has its bindings falling apart too... makes me sad

So does mine. My $75 hardback rulebook, which I have barely used because I use my mini rulebook instead(bindings also falling apart big time in that one). Guess the writers for the main 8th hardcover rulebook are not living in a developed country with bills to pay.


Why? Because I take care with my books. I don't open all the wat flat, I don't press them flat, I don't stuff them full of papers and force them closed. In short, I treated my books with care and low and behold they didn't fall apart.

Malorian, come on now. I take care of all my books. I still have my 4th edition books like my O&G one that I bought in 1994 still with the bindings in tact. I don't mistreat my books at all. However starting in 7th nearly all my books have started falling apart. My dark elf, my mini 7th, my mini 8th, my hard back 8th, my 7th woc, my 7th greenskin is loose(but not falling apart), my 7th HE. People have to stop blaming the customer and start blaming the manufacturer.

If I can go nearly 20 years without my 4th edition books falling apart, then there is no excuse for books that I have hardly used to be falling apart after a few months or even weeks(my DE book fell apart almost immediately).

Quinzy
04-05-2012, 16:28
Everything used to cost less. Now they cost more. That's pretty much how things work. Factoring in hardback and full colour too, the price increase is expected.

Warhammer is a niche market. They don't sell that many books, and they're expensive to make and ship off.
We're not as big a market as Penguin classics, so we shouldn't expect those prices.

Just look at university books as another example. Expensive to make, hardback, select audience, and extortionately priced too. The big rule book costs less than many university books of the same size.

You're also paying for the authors' contributions, the artists' contributions, distribution, and then standard profit.

And most importantly, standard inflation has added at least £5 in ten years.
£25 pound is over £30 pound now.
[http://www.measuringworth.com/ppoweruk/result.php?use%5B%5D=CPI&use%5B%5D=NOMINALEARN&year_late=2000&typeamount=25&amount=25&year_source=2000&year_result=2010]

EmperorNorton
04-05-2012, 16:30
What are GW supposed to do they gave you a better product, and not charge you more for it, when apple broughy out the ipad 2 they increased the price did they not, but when gw does it suddenly its a problem.
What they are supposed to do, IMO, is to offer a quality that is reflective of the price.
When the books were 18€ I thought that was expensive enough to expect that pages would not fall out after looking through it twice. Yes, that has happened to me despite knowing very well how to handle books (it's kinda my job).
At the current price point the books should not only be spectacularly sturdy, they should also bring me beer and give me a massage to be truly worth it.

EmperorNorton
04-05-2012, 16:42
Everything used to cost less. Now they cost more. That's pretty much how things work. Factoring in hardback and full colour too, the price increase is expected.
GW is way ahead of inflation with their price increases.


Warhammer is a niche market. They don't sell that many books, and they're expensive to make and ship off.
They must sell tens of thousands of copies of their books. Many publishers have print runs that are much smaller.


We're not as big a market as Penguin classics, so we shouldn't expect those prices.
Nobody is.

librerian_samae
04-05-2012, 16:48
The thing I don't get and that really annoys me is a few weeks after the tombkings book came out the price jumped from £20 to £25!

Now thats just mad grr.

Fear Ghoul
04-05-2012, 16:50
The new hardbacks don't compare particularly favourably to their immediately previous incarnations primarily because nearly 95% of the contents are exactly the same. However the books do provide quite good value when compared to far older books from 4th/5th edition Warhammer, which were not much larger but if printed today would be substantially smaller. Similarly in 40k 2nd edition books would spend time detailing how bolters and flamers worked, while the 3rd edition equivalents were more streamlined and sold for £10 but at up to a third of the thickness of their successors. Throughout all this time I've never had problems with GW binding except when someone would try and open them fully wide like a newspaper. I do miss the printer toner they used to use though. Gave all the book a nice smell that lingers to this day.

Malorian
04-05-2012, 17:46
Malorian, come on now. I take care of all my books. I still have my 4th edition books like my O&G one that I bought in 1994 still with the bindings in tact. I don't mistreat my books at all. However starting in 7th nearly all my books have started falling apart. My dark elf, my mini 7th, my mini 8th, my hard back 8th, my 7th woc, my 7th greenskin is loose(but not falling apart), my 7th HE. People have to stop blaming the customer and start blaming the manufacturer.

If I can go nearly 20 years without my 4th edition books falling apart, then there is no excuse for books that I have hardly used to be falling apart after a few months or even weeks(my DE book fell apart almost immediately).

Well I may be an outlier, but it seems fairly odd that so many others are having problems when I get the books of every race for both systems and have had no problems at all.

ColShaw
04-05-2012, 18:25
Well I may be an outlier, but it seems fairly odd that so many others are having problems when I get the books of every race for both systems and have had no problems at all.

When 3rd Ed 40K came out, my main rulebook literally disintegrated. The glue turned into this yellow, crusty stuff, the cover sloughed off, it was just a mess.

These problems may not have happened to you, but they were genuine problems.

TheDungen
04-05-2012, 20:39
well i think they lose money by increasing the prices all the time back in 6th i had alkl the army books and quite a few codices. now i have yet to boy a hardback armybook. I'll prolly buy the HE one when its released and maybee the chaos one, but i might wait and se eif i can pick that one up second hand. Actually i get most of my GW stuff second hand these days, and thats costing GW sales. (though one of the reasons is that there a 7€ postage to where i live)

Andy p
04-05-2012, 20:40
It gots da carbowd and culurs!!!

Petey
04-05-2012, 20:52
It gots da carbowd and culurs!!!

Quoted for truth.

When the books were soft back and 25-30 dollars, I bought all of them. At 40 a book I only buy the armies I play. Sorry, I don't want hardcover. And though it is beautiful color, I don't get any more out of that than I did the really great BnW art of 6th ed.

The Low King
04-05-2012, 22:14
£5!!! god damn you GW!!!!! a whole £5!!!!! you theiving mongrels!!! i could get an ENTIRE extra model for that (with a bit extra), hear that, ONE ENTIRE MODEL!!!! My dwarf army, containing 100+ metal models, would be a whole FIVE MODELS bigger if those damn books hadnt been hardcover......

Yeah....really guys?

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 22:23
£5!!! god damn you GW!!!!! a whole £5!!!!! you theiving mongrels!!! i could get an ENTIRE extra model for that (with a bit extra), hear that, ONE ENTIRE MODEL!!!! My dwarf army, containing 100+ metal models, would be a whole FIVE MODELS bigger if those damn books hadnt been hardcover......

Yeah....really guys?

You're comparing the price difference between the more recent, absurdly overpriced softcover rulebooks at $33, not with where there were at just before the hardcover switchover.

For contrast, imagine if GW increased the price of their 10-man plastic core sets by 25% to $33. Next, as they redo each kit, they just re-release the sprue (while making the plastic more durable with slightly more bitz) for an additional $8. Is there additional value there? I'd argue no. Sure, it's only $8 more than what you were paying "before", however if what you were paying before was already too much then the new price increase would just be infuriating.

The Low King
04-05-2012, 22:28
Where where they before the switchover? im talkin in pounds stirling....your dollars confuse me.

I buy the books because i like them, the point im making is that £5 extra hardly makes a difference to me, plus i prefer the new Hard cover books to the old ones, they are prettier

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 22:45
I don't know what they were going for in pounds, because here that's an answer to the question of what they weigh. :p I think it's about 14 pounds, if my conversions are up-to-date.

They were $20 for a very long time, then bumped to $22 across the board about 2 years back. When that large space marine codex came out (can't remember the release) it set a new price point somewhere below $30, after which all softcover army books were reset to $33 when the first hardcover book came out.

I understand your point, and understand that a 5 pound increase isn't that much. Taken in the context of the overall price raise, which amounts to almost double that number, I feel the new price point is unacceptable.

ftayl5
04-05-2012, 22:49
I like the new books, they're pretty :3 and much more resistant to cat related damage.

On the other hand they cost $70 AU, which is by far the most expensive book I have ever bought.

Lord Dan
04-05-2012, 22:52
On the other hand they cost $70 AU, which is by far the most expensive book I have ever bought.
I'm beginning to think GW sets arbitrary high prices in Australia to see what people are willing to pay. Given that the US dollar and AUS dollar are about equal there's no reason you should be paying almost 75% more than us.

The bearded one
05-05-2012, 00:27
@ Lord Dan: sweet, I've just been sigged again :D

on the topic at hand; sure, it'd be great if they were (significantly) cheaper, but the current price does not deter me from buying every single hardcover book. I've got all the 8th edition armybooks, blood in the badlands and storm of magic. Spending 7.50-10 euro's more on the obligatory book purchase that only occurs every 3-4+ months doesn't make me gnaw my tail in anguish. And in the case of this particular price rise I'm getting something better out of it. My skaven and beastmen books are starting to wither at the edges already, but the O&G book is still spikly sparkly clean.

eron12
05-05-2012, 02:32
Dozens? Like 24 (first applicable for dozens)? Which part have you been cast in plays of LoTR? :rolleyes:

While I wouldn't say I'm at dozens, I expect I will be by the time I'm 42. My father, who's in his mid-60s reads Lord of the Rings at least once a year.


Depends, are we talking about University study books?

*wallet remembers and cries*

I don't remember college text books going up signifigantly on me. They were super expensive before, they are super expensive now.


[COLOR="#33ccff"]
Just look at university books as another example. Expensive to make, hardback, select audience, and extortionately priced too. The big rule book costs less than many university books of the same size.

And students complain about the cost of text books too. A lot. As well as complaining about professors who requrie an excessive number of books. If anything the comparison to text books shows just how silly GW's prices have become.


You're also paying for the authors' contributions, the artists' contributions, distribution, and then standard profit.

And some of us have been paying for that some contribution for several books now. Are illistrators still being paid for images commissioned more than ten years ago?

Standard profit is one thing, GW levels of profit are another.

Lord Solar Plexus
05-05-2012, 09:17
What are GW supposed to do they gave you a better product, and not charge you more for it, when apple broughy out the ipad 2 they increased the price did they not, but when gw does it suddenly its a problem.
...
I was at a tordement and watched as my opponent said how bad the binding was on his book, as he then slide the small rule book between it pages and closed it to placing his elbow on it to rest his head.

Did the ipad 1 fall apart too?

I can totally see what you mean. The other day, someone complained to me about his car, and then I saw him actually driving it. Can you imagine? He even put his case in the boot! No wonder his product deteriorates, Stupid is using it.

:rolleyes:


Everything used to cost less. Now they cost more. That's pretty much how things work.

That's not at all how things work, that's an overly simplistic approach. What's more, it's definitively not how it should work from a consumer's point of view. Some people act as if they were shareholders only and never consumers. I find that rather weird. Do you not see that with a line like that you can "justify" everything? Bread going up 100 %? "No worries, TV sets and airplanes are also getting more expensive, it all evens out!" "The litre of unleaded costs 4 Euros!" "No worries, that was to be expected."

Expected, hmm? What does that even mean? Isn't that just an empty catch phrase? What did you do, collect bullion to compensate?

Urgat
05-05-2012, 09:36
I'm beginning to think GW sets arbitrary high prices in Australia to see what people are willing to pay. Given that the US dollar and AUS dollar are about equal there's no reason you should be paying almost 75% more than us.

It certainly has to do with handling and shipping costs, not the product itself. It does sound absurdly prohibitive either way though, I'm not arguing that.
Oh, and I love the new books.

azhagmorglum
05-05-2012, 10:24
You're comparing the price difference between the more recent, absurdly overpriced softcover rulebooks at $33, not with where there were at just before the hardcover switchover.

For contrast, imagine if GW increased the price of their 10-man plastic core sets by 25% to $33. Next, as they redo each kit, they just re-release the sprue (while making the plastic more durable with slightly more bitz) for an additional $8. Is there additional value there? I'd argue no. Sure, it's only $8 more than what you were paying "before", however if what you were paying before was already too much then the new price increase would just be infuriating.

You mean like what they did with the plastic orcs?:shifty: ...wait...:wtf:...:cries:

Come on, new edition : O&G armybook + 10 plastic orcs = 55,75 euros. Compare that to the previous edition : O&G armybook + 19 (!!) orcs = 45 euros
So for 10 more euros, you get 9 less models and hardcover...One can't tell me there's nothing wrong here :mad:, all the more that those plastic orcs are like 12 years old now !

Mati
05-05-2012, 10:42
Not only hard cover - colored pictures too! ;-)

blackseven
05-05-2012, 11:37
The army books were cheaper before... but they were cheap. Softcover is okay, but monochrome? That's product a B-list company puts out.

PP (Warmahordes) books are full color - mostly softcover with limited numbers of full color. D&D books are full color, and that hardcovers are *roughly* the same price (MSRP) as the new Army Books (D&D is in practice cheaper because WOTC/Hasbro doesn't crack down on discounters.)

Now, GW books ARE expensive, but they were (IMHO) MORE of a ripoff when they were black/white. Black/white printing is CHEAP compared to even simple 4-color printing. Plus, the product LOOKED cheap - not fitting a top of the line brand. D&D has been full color for over a decade. PP has been full color a long time as well (I think their original RPG module and books were B/W, but not the wargame.) Heck, World of Darkness uses color too (not full, IIRC.) GURPS uses full color now. Who still uses B/W? Battletech - because it's not an A-list property anymore.

Quinzy
05-05-2012, 13:45
And students complain about the cost of text books too. A lot. As well as complaining about professors who requrie an excessive number of books. If anything the comparison to text books shows just how silly GW's prices have become.

They are silly, but they are comparable. I don't particularly enjoy paying more money, but it's not like there's no precedent, and it's not like it's particularly unreasonable.


And some of us have been paying for that some contribution for several books now. Are illistrators still being paid for images commissioned more than ten years ago?

Standard profit is one thing, GW levels of profit are another.

You've got to pay for the new art, and the colouration of the old art. You've got to pay the graphic designers, the editor, and so on.

GW makes insane profit, sure. I don't doubt that. But once again, what they're doing is not particularly unreasonable or without precedent.



That's not at all how things work, that's an overly simplistic approach. What's more, it's definitively not how it should work from a consumer's point of view. Some people act as if they were shareholders only and never consumers. I find that rather weird. Do you not see that with a line like that you can "justify" everything? Bread going up 100 %? "No worries, TV sets and airplanes are also getting more expensive, it all evens out!" "The litre of unleaded costs 4 Euros!" "No worries, that was to be expected."

Expected, hmm? What does that even mean? Isn't that just an empty catch phrase? What did you do, collect bullion to compensate?

Last time I checked, bread wasn't a luxury item. And you appear to be ignoring the inflation issue I previously mentioned.
General purchasing power of the pound/euro/whatever has gone down.

€25 from 2001 was worth €30 in 2011.
[http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate2.php]

That's a 20% difference.

Bread has actually gone up by about 20% in the last few years alone here too.
A bottle of cola was once €1 in 2001. Now it's €1.50. It had gone up by 20% in a matter of years.
Even my copy of Canterbury Tales, Penguin Classics edition, has gone up by £1 from 2003 to now RRP.

So expected means expected. Money loses value. Prices go up. More so with luxuries.

EmperorNorton
05-05-2012, 15:03
[COLOR="#33ccff"]Last time I checked, bread wasn't a luxury item. And you appear to be ignoring the inflation issue I previously mentioned.
General purchasing power of the pound/euro/whatever has gone down.

€25 from 2001 was worth €30 in 2011.
[http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate2.php]

That's a 20% difference.

Bread has actually gone up by about 20% in the last few years alone here too.
A bottle of cola was once €1 in 2001. Now it's €1.50. It had gone up by 20% in a matter of years.
Even my copy of Canterbury Tales, Penguin Classics edition, has gone up by £1 from 2003 to now RRP.

So expected means expected. Money loses value. Prices go up. More so with luxuries.


Empire Army Book in 2007: 18€
Empire Army Book in 2012: 33€

That's a 83% difference. In half the time of the 20% inflation that had to be expected.
With an average of 2.5% of inflation per anno the book should cost 20€.
That comparison is not completely fair because of the switch to hardcover and full color printing.
Some books are still the same they've been five years ago, the Dwarfs, Wood Elves, Bretonnians. Those books are 26€ now, a 44% increase over five years.

shelfunit.
05-05-2012, 15:12
Where where they before the switchover? im talkin in pounds stirling....your dollars confuse me.

I buy the books because i like them, the point im making is that £5 extra hardly makes a difference to me, plus i prefer the new Hard cover books to the old ones, they are prettier

Well in 6th ed (when I re-joined the game) around 2001-2002 the army books were £10, now they are £25 - all in the space of 10 years.

Damien 1427
05-05-2012, 15:17
D&D books are full color, and that hardcovers are *roughly* the same price (MSRP) as the new Army Books (D&D is in practice cheaper because WOTC/Hasbro doesn't crack down on discounters.)

Bingo. RRP is anywhere between £20 and £25, depending on the book in question. That they're sold through Amazon certainly helps with the prices, usually shaving £5 or so off the price. So it's not outrageously expensive.

For what it's worth, I quite like the hardback books. I'm looking forward to them making the leap to 40k.

Adjudicator
05-05-2012, 15:31
could'nt agree more. to be honest i went to Amazon and picked up the 8th ed orcs and gobbos book new for £18 and i thought that was steep...

Mr_Foulscumm
05-05-2012, 15:34
Not everyone complained. More importantly your argument apparently ignores the fact that along with "what we asked for" we also got a 30% price increase.

"Excuse me, my steak is undercooked. Could you please get me another?"
"Certainly sir"
...
"Waiter, there seems to be a problem with my bill. You charged me more for my steak."
"We had to cook it twice."
"I don't understand"
"WE GAVE YOU WHAT YOU WANTED? WTF ARE YOU MAD FOR??!!!"

Unfortunately for our case, there is no steak involved.

Unfortunately there is no steak involved. Unfortunately it's not the only problem with the analogy either. A better why of putting it: you ordered a McDonalds hamburger and had it sent back because it was under cooked and they gave you a steak, and a price increase. Steak is so annoying when all you wanted was a McBurger.
But enough with all this talk of food! I'm getting hungry! :D

Mmmmm.... army book. For the record, the new books rock. The end. :)

Lord Dan
05-05-2012, 15:41
@ Lord Dan: sweet, I've just been sigged again :D

I couldn't ignore that kind of awesome.


Unfortunately there is no steak involved. Unfortunately it's not the only problem with the analogy either. A better why of putting it: you ordered a McDonalds hamburger and had it sent back because it was under cooked and they gave you a steak, and a price increase. Steak is so annoying when all you wanted was a McBurger.
But enough with all this talk of food! I'm getting hungry! :D

Mmmmm.... army book. For the record, the new books rock. The end. :)

Some of us just want a @#%^& cheeseburger, because we can't afford a steak every time we get hungry.

Also we were already being charged steak prices for the burger, now they're just being mean...

eron12
05-05-2012, 15:44
The army books were cheaper before... but they were cheap. Softcover is okay, but monochrome? That's product a B-list company puts out.

PP (Warmahordes) books are full color - mostly softcover with limited numbers of full color. D&D books are full color, and that hardcovers are *roughly* the same price (MSRP) as the new Army Books (D&D is in practice cheaper because WOTC/Hasbro doesn't crack down on discounters.)


The 4th edition Player's Handbook costs, $34.95 new (not from a discounter). That's 85% of a GW army book. I guess that could still fall within some people's definition of "roughly" but not mine. On top of that the Dnd book is 320 pages. So three times the content for 15% less money.

Mr_Foulscumm
05-05-2012, 16:10
I couldn't ignore that kind of awesome.



Some of us just want a @#%^& cheeseburger, because we can't afford a steak every time we get hungry.

Also we were already being charged steak prices for the burger, now they're just being mean...

Indeed! :)

I do understand that people think it's highway robbery.

However, the new books do look great. And I do like a well made book. Totally understand that people don't see it this way. And sadly there really isn't anything either side can do to change the situation. Love it or hate it... we're stuck with it. :)

Quinzy
05-05-2012, 16:11
Empire Army Book in 2007: 18€
Empire Army Book in 2012: 33€

That's a 83% difference. In half the time of the 20% inflation that had to be expected.
With an average of 2.5% of inflation per anno the book should cost 20€.
That comparison is not completely fair because of the switch to hardcover and full color printing.
Some books are still the same they've been five years ago, the Dwarfs, Wood Elves, Bretonnians. Those books are 26€ now, a 44% increase over five years.

Provided the Wood Elf book was €18 upon initial print in 2005, it's gone up by 30%.

Now I'll be fair, yeah, the price increase from 7th ed books to 8th ed books seem quite steep, as evidenced above by Norton.
Was the book before that also €18? What was the cost of the previous book in 2001?

A hardback book seems to be about what? Between €4 to €8 more than a paperback version? The €26 to €33 isn't dramatically huge given trends in books.

I'm not particularly defending Games Workshop. I'd love if they made things cheaper. I'm more trying to play devil's advocate.

enyoss
05-05-2012, 23:54
This pseudo-argument is a pet hate of mine.


Agreed.

Admittedly, I'm very careful with my books, but I never had a page fall out of my 4th-7th edition softback army books. The spine on my 8th edition hardback, however, has already split, so it's going to be a tough job keeping the pages in there from now on.

The problem is that if I want to replace the hardback it costs me twice as much (and weighs a tonne more when carrying my stuff on the tube to games).

I don't really see any improvement in the quality of the product for the extra price (I don't really class colour as added quality: I much prefer the black and white artwork), so this time around I guess I'll only buy the one or two books that I really need and give all the rest a miss.

loveless
06-05-2012, 03:53
I went into the LGS tonight and saw someone working on their Eldar army at the painting tables. Nearby was their army book. It had, apparently, been stored in a cardboard tube from the looks of it. I may have made an audible noise of disbelief upon seeing it.

Well...it'd be hard to make a hardcover look like that...though I thought it was difficult to get a softcover to look like that, too.

Apparently I'm paying extra to idiot-proof my army books.

Rosstifer
06-05-2012, 04:06
I like the new books, but they are so expensive over here I have to order them from the US (Just like all my GW product). I have to wonder though, will GW keep going with the price rises? When will it end? and will they stop, or lower the prices even when they stop making any kind of profit? I used to be a massive GW fanboy, but recently it's been getting to me a bit. When my AOW Chaos Warriors get here, I'll be able to field a completely non GW 2400pt Slaanesh WOC army, and I can already field 1500ish points of Gamezone Dark Elves. If GW's prices (and attitude and output, Gamezone especailly aren't all that much cheaper but produce some lovely sculpts) were a little more reasonable, odds are I'd never have looked elsewhere. Still, at US prices anyway, I'm happy to pay for the new books, they are very nice indeed.

Wakerofgods
06-05-2012, 04:46
Maybe it helps them get a leg up against the 'up and comers'? Like mantic (with Kings of War) or warmachines and hordes?

GW obviously can't compete with the cheap price or balance of KOW - but they can overshadow KOW with pretty books, deep lore and variety of options (magic items/ect).

GW is probably just becoming slightly more 'niche' in the market that it has previously just dominated.


This is just a theory, I already see several holes in it so I'm just throwing it out as a random idea.

kyussinchains
09-05-2012, 07:34
For those using college/university textbooks as an example, after you've gotten your 3-4 years of use out of them, you can often sell them and recoup some of your outlay (I never paid full price for any of my textbooks at university) but in 4 years time your army book will probably be a tatty mess (let's see how they hold up over the next few years) from being used and read, and stands a good chance of being obsolete and worthless (I've tried ebaying 6th edition books in great condition and even for 99p they rarely sell)

I don't believe there was widespread outcry that the army books needed to be made hardcover, full-colour affairs, in fact I barely remember any threads on here about how shoddy the old army books were before the hardbacks were released, I just think GW saw a way they could attempt to justify a large price hike by increasing the percieved quality of their product, and that has been their business model for many years now....

scarletsquig
09-05-2012, 08:23
Maybe it helps them get a leg up against the 'up and comers'? Like mantic (with Kings of War) or warmachines and hordes?

GW obviously can't compete with the cheap price or balance of KOW - but they can overshadow KOW with pretty books, deep lore and variety of options (magic items/ect).

Not for much longer they can't. :)

Deep Lore? Yes, definitely on that point. Not on the other points though.

http://www.beastsofwar.com/kings-of-war/leaked-cover-sample-pages-kings-war/

Mantic are, next month, releasing a high-quality hardback rulebook containing the main rules, background text, extra rules for campaigns and sieges, and 8 army lists (with a good variety of magic items!) Artwork for it (http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Kings-of-War-Sneak-Peak-Cover.jpg) is looking rather nice, too, much better than the recent warhammer army book covers.

The price? £20. Or free as a .pdf download from their website.

...also, all the rules have been throughly beta-tested for the past 3 years with lots of input from the community and tournament players to identify and fix broken builds and loopholes in the rules, the points values in the army lists are well-balanced, and kept updated online. Smaller softback rulebooks (IoB style) also come free in every army box, or are buyable for £5.

*That* is how you release a set of rules when you take them seriously as opposed to a chore that has to be done to allow you to sell more miniatures.

To put it bluntly, there is no real physical reason why GW needs to price the books this highly. They do it because they know that their target market is price insensitive. If the army books were £40, people would still buy them because they need them to play.

I will personally be grudgingly buying the new (and incredibly shoddily-written by Cruddace, to the point where 1/3rd of the units are literally useless) Empire book from a discount retailer, and nothing else. Already got the IoB book off eBay.

Why? Well, everyone and their dog plays warhammer, and that is extremely difficult to change. If I want to game with those people, I'll need an army book. Maybe in 5 years time things will be different and I won't have to buy the 9th edition empire book for £50, but for now, that's the way things are. £45 for rulebook and £25 for army book is a spit in the ocean for most of the people who play, because they have an extremely large amount of disposable income.

No point complaining about it, because that is the fact of the matter and it is not going to change. Just gotta deal with it.

Lord Solar Plexus
09-05-2012, 09:52
Last time I checked, bread wasn't a luxury item.


Last time *I* checked, you were the one to bring up bread when you justified the price rise with the line that "everything" became more expensive. Also, toys are no luxury item in my neck of the woods. Toys are part of even the most basic standard of living, on the same level as TV sets, computers or software.



€25 from 2001 was worth €30 in 2011.
[http://www.iisg.nl/hpw/calculate2.php]

That's a 20% difference....

So expected means expected. Money loses value. Prices go up. More so with luxuries.


The guy on the stretcher whom I passed on my way to work had expected the collision with that other car, too. Funnily enough his broken leg hurt just the same after the paramedics told him that this was to be expected when you're a commuter...

Prices go up. Wages don't. Me don't like. Easy concept, legitimate PoV. I'm not debating the fact of price rises, I'm saying that I don't like them, that I don't want them, and that it would be logical for every consumer to feel and say the same instead of just shrug and take it on the chin.

Gromdal
09-05-2012, 12:35
They are so expensive because GW has increased their profit on them.

loveless
09-05-2012, 14:11
Maybe it helps them get a leg up against the 'up and comers'? Like mantic (with Kings of War) or warmachines and hordes?


Less "leg up" and more "catch up" I'm afraid. Privateer's books have long been full-color affairs, available in both hardcover and paperback. Quality of the art included is going to vary based on personal opinion. Privateer books also tend to include rather useful painting guides and actually progress the story, so outside of an edition reboot you're not going to end up with much repeated information. I don't know the page counts on the Privateer books off the top of my head - I think the faction books are rather hefty in comparison to a GW army book while the expansion books might be closer in size to a GW army book.

GW also falters a bit in getting their rules out there. I can direct people to start-up rules (or complete rules) for Warmachine, Hordes, Kings of War, Malifaux, and several other games for free. GW games require you to scour eBay for the starter rulebooks or spend $60-75 on a core rulebook and $33-42 on an army book. GW "starter sets" are laughable as anything other than an army springboard due to a lack of complete unit rules.

Short version: GW overcharges for rulebooks, which makes their start-up costs even higher. If the rulebooks were largely optional, the increased price wouldn't be as big of a deal.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 15:30
Prices are high because GW is currently a buisiness that recorded (i believe, from a recent article) a 40% increase in profits.

They are as high as they are because GW can go that high, people will pay that much. Same idea as things like the Ipad (ect) or the newest X-box game. I will happily (well, not quite) buy the new Total war game (or COD, Halo etc) for £40, as will most people.

That said, i will still buy my stuff from GW because i want to support my local store (and i play a lot of games in it)

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 15:32
Prices are high because GW is currently a buisiness that recorded (i believe, from a recent article) a 40% increase in profits.
Sales for 2011 were down 2.7% from 2010. Obviously this means while they're making much more per sale, they're selling far less.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 15:45
Far less? from what i can see the sales in the Uk, Australia (understandable) and USA dropped whilst everywhere else they rose......27% isnt that much

Lord Dan
09-05-2012, 15:51
Far less? from what i can see the sales in the Uk, Australia (understandable) and USA dropped whilst everywhere else they rose......27% isnt that much

Could you post your source? Here I have their overall sales for the past 4 years:
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/financials/financials.asp?ticker=GAW:LN
The site also has lots of interesting information on their expenses and net profits.

2.7% down is a lot when you consider how much they've raised prices in the last two years. If they're making much more per unit sold and are making less money overall (before operating costs, we're just talking about income), then they are selling far fewer units.

The Low King
09-05-2012, 16:03
Statistics:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

Article i was talking about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17274186

DarkMark
09-05-2012, 16:23
I bought the Game of Thrones box set today in a regular department store, thats 3936 pages worth, for the princely fee of 26€. Theoretically I could have also gone for a coffee and doughnut too for less than the cost of a single army book.

I used to buy all the books in wfb and 40k, I don't any more.

shelfunit.
09-05-2012, 16:29
Statistics:

http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/2011-Full-Year-Report-and-Accounts-full-25-July.pdf

Article i was talking about:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17274186

You seem to be confusing profit and sales. The annual price rises of 10-15% on average with a reduced sales figure of 2.7% along with their cost cutting measures are no obsticle to a 40% rise in profits. Short term. This needs to either move to GW general or switch back to topic though - the books cost as much as they do because people will pay the money. That simple.

ColShaw
09-05-2012, 18:36
back to topic though - the books cost as much as they do because THEY THINK people will pay the money. That simple.

Fixed that for you. ;)

Sh4d0w
10-05-2012, 12:43
Why are they more expensive? They can still sell them like that is why, when we look at a book necessary to start our new army we aren't just not going to buy it because it was $10 more than the last one, so they gain alot of profit, i still predict in 10 years time they will be out of business.

Late
10-05-2012, 13:17
Why are they more expensive? They can still sell them like that is why, when we look at a book necessary to start our new army we aren't just not going to buy it because it was $10 more than the last one, so they gain alot of profit, i still predict in 10 years time they will be out of business.

They will eventually (rather soon imo) hit a "price ceiling"

Orrinocco
10-05-2012, 14:34
I'm another who used to buy all the books, as I enjoyed the fluff and hobby articles / painting guides) within them. Now there are no hobby articles, the fluff is mostly the same, and the price has gone up hugely. I no longer buy any of the books.

Orrinocco
10-05-2012, 14:49
I'm another who used to buy all the books, as I enjoyed the fluff and hobby articles / painting guides) within them. Now there are no hobby articles, the fluff is mostly the same, and the price has gone up hugely. I no longer buy any of the books.

azhagmorglum
10-05-2012, 17:47
The books seem to be more streamlined nowadays, with some additional fluff and the obligatory new monster/big vehicle. Nothing major on this side. Then you have the hardcover and coloured pictures. Well, great, some are just recycled pictures (several times for some), and in my opinion a picture in black and white is great if what's pictured is greatly drawn. Remember those Mark Gibbons art? They were all great, full of dynamisn and detailed, and in black and white and it didn't matter.
Anyway, those 2 new features hardly justify the dramatic increase in price (yeah I know, better binding presumably, I don't know, my old books never fell apart, am I a lucky one?), since overall the books are still the same and you will still have to replace them in 5/6 years (at an even greater price I'm sure :shifty:)

loveless
10-05-2012, 19:03
you will still have to replace them in 5/6 years (at an even greater price I'm sure :shifty:)

If GW starts asking $50 (USD) for a 96-page book, I'm going to laugh and stop buying books altogether. I'll make up my own rules at that price.

zak
10-05-2012, 20:14
The hard cover books are a lot of money, but I am addicted and will pay. However, there will be a point when I say no. It seems as if this has happened with many people already. I really hope GW is about in 10 years and I know prices will rise, I just hope they don't price themselves out of the market.

Lord Dan
10-05-2012, 20:21
The hard cover books are a lot of money, but I am addicted and will pay. However, there will be a point when I say no,.
:shifty::shifty:

Late
11-05-2012, 07:14
:shifty::shifty:

Even though most people here are adults, who can well afford their toys, there also are a lot of people who will feel ripped off. I know people who have been playing as long as I, and have resorted to downloading the rule & army books, and buying miniatures second hand.

I still buy the army books that I need, but not the rest, mainly because of the lack of content. Like someone above said, the art and fluff is recycled, and some of the latter rather crudely copy & paste "edited" to fit the current background, e.g the piece about Gotrek and Felix in Sylvania which is originally from the 1994 WH Armies: Undead book.

Anyone remember the 3rd ed. 40k Codexes which were nothing more than small leaflets of rules?

Lord Solar Plexus
11-05-2012, 07:27
That must have been the 3rd edition ones. That edition made 40k into a completely different game, so they had to churn out new codices for everyone all at once.

Late
11-05-2012, 07:41
That must have been the 3rd edition ones. That edition made 40k into a completely different game, so they had to churn out new codices for everyone all at once.

Yeah third, sorry, we still play 2nd up here, so my memory is kind of fuzzy :D

mattschuur
12-05-2012, 06:48
I have ample income and definitely don't need to watch my spending. With that said, I have drastically cut back all my GW related spending due to the ridiculous price hikes. Whether you have money or not or have a well planned spending style, paying too much for a product isn't smart, nor is it justifiable in any way. That's like choosing to pay an extra $1.00 for gas at a station because their store looks prettier.

There is some merit to the improved product argument, but the problem is that some of the product isn't new nor improved and yet has been jacked up in price. Old sculpts have gone up as well (common goblins, Elf spearmen and bowmen, men at arms just to name a few). So the new and improved argument doesn't work for the price increases on models.
Note, people comparing GW books to PP isn't a fair comparison. First of all, the main rule book at my store is cheaper than GW's. Second, They have at most 6 books that are much larger in content. Oh, and they're color as well without hardbacks. Not an equal comparison.
Now, Hardbacks are in my opinion one of the most ridiculous things in literature. I have yet to buy a single hardback. The only difference is the cover and usually they cost at least twice as much.

Now, Gw only produces hardbacks. $41.25 for any book is seriously ridiculous. I saw years back all 3 "Girl with..." books sold in hardback for a total of $49.50. 3 hardcover books, well over 300 pages each for all of $8.25 more. And people seriously think pretty colors and rehashed pictures and fluff justifies it? If that's the case, I have this elixir that cures like cancer of all kinds, back aches, head aches, std's, pneumonia and Insanity. It even comes in a glass container (fancy, more durable) and your choice of color (blue, yellow, green, red or clear.) It's only $50.00. Send me your money.:)
Matt Schuur

Sh4d0w
13-05-2012, 10:17
If GW starts asking $50 (USD) for a 96-page book, I'm going to laugh and stop buying books altogether. I'll make up my own rules at that price.

You would not like Australia then, $69 for the new books......

Lord Dan
13-05-2012, 15:32
Which is fascinating, given that the AUS dollar is now technically stronger than the US dollar (.997 AUS for every US dollar as of this morning).

Athelassan
13-05-2012, 23:40
They're expensive because GW can't see a profit margin without trying to exploit it. Considering that the paperback army books now sell for £20, the £25 hardbacks don't really seem too unreasonable by comparison, but they still seem unreasonable in absolute terms. Compare with the Warhammer Forge books, which are more expensive but feel like much better value.

The Empire book is a particularly bad example, mind. It's exactly the same length as the old one and the content is virtually identical.

The sad thing is that back in the day I used to buy all the army books I could for "opponent research" and the background. I have copies of many (probably most) of the 4th-7th ed army books as a result (all of which, including the ones that saw regular use, are still in excellent condition, I might add). At >£20 a pop I felt I could justify this. Now, though, the price of the individual books means there's no way I'm going to get any army books I don't need, so where I might once have spent £100-odd I'm now going to spend £25. Nice work, GW.

I've never understood why they have to make their rules so expensive, other than the explanation I suggested in my first sentence.

dimetri1
14-05-2012, 18:48
They're expensive because GW can't see a profit margin without trying to exploit it. Considering that the paperback army books now sell for £20, the £25 hardbacks don't really seem too unreasonable by comparison, but they still seem unreasonable in absolute terms. Compare with the Warhammer Forge books, which are more expensive but feel like much better value.

The Empire book is a particularly bad example, mind. It's exactly the same length as the old one and the content is virtually identical.

The sad thing is that back in the day I used to buy all the army books I could for "opponent research" and the background. I have copies of many (probably most) of the 4th-7th ed army books as a result (all of which, including the ones that saw regular use, are still in excellent condition, I might add). At >£20 a pop I felt I could justify this. Now, though, the price of the individual books means there's no way I'm going to get any army books I don't need, so where I might once have spent £100-odd I'm now going to spend £25. Nice work, GW.

I've never understood why they have to make their rules so expensive, other than the explanation I suggested in my first sentence.

I used to buy all of the books and carry them around with me. Now I will just buy the books I need and borrow the others.

loveless
14-05-2012, 21:55
You would not like Australia then, $69 for the new books......

You're right, I wouldn't like Australia. Frankly, I'm surprised Australia has a GW-based gaming community.

---------

So I'm picking up the Vampire Counts hardcover later on this week (or early next, something like that). Of course, I'm getting it for $31.25 instead of $41.25 and still feeling like I might be overpaying, but I've got an urge to revitalize my undead. So, once it's my copy in my hands, I'll be able to judge if the books are worth $31 of Loveless' money.

Von Breitholz
15-05-2012, 13:17
Provided the Wood Elf book was €18 upon initial print in 2005, it's gone up by 30%.

Now I'll be fair, yeah, the price increase from 7th ed books to 8th ed books seem quite steep, as evidenced above by Norton.
Was the book before that also €18? What was the cost of the previous book in 2001?

A hardback book seems to be about what? Between €4 to €8 more than a paperback version? The €26 to €33 isn't dramatically huge given trends in books.

I'm not particularly defending Games Workshop. I'd love if they made things cheaper. I'm more trying to play devil's advocate.

I agree, and I would add inflation as it happens all the time... even when you΄re reading this...

Gromdal
16-05-2012, 12:42
I also used to buy all books and have bought empire, VC, OK sofar....i doubt ill get the others. Im earning alot of money etc but it jst doesnt seem worth it

loveless
18-05-2012, 14:11
So I'm picking up the Vampire Counts hardcover later on this week (or early next, something like that). Of course, I'm getting it for $31.25 instead of $41.25 and still feeling like I might be overpaying, but I've got an urge to revitalize my undead. So, once it's my copy in my hands, I'll be able to judge if the books are worth $31 of Loveless' money.

Oop, $33, forgot I have to pay tax at B&M stores.

Okay, first of all, annoyance - the top left corner of the book is a bit smashed in. I'm pretty sure I've seen this on paperbacks, too, so it's not a hardcover issue - just a bad luck issue. As the store I had the discount at only special orders Fantasy, I couldn't make a swap - no biggie, though, it doesn't really diminish anything.

I will admit, the pages are decently high quality - they've got a nice finish and a nice feel to them. The book sits open well enough, but (likely from being a new book) "sticks" for a bit if you've left it open to a certain page for a while (like I did while going over Powers). I'm a touch disappointed in the art selections - while it's much the same as was seen in the 7th edition book, I don't get the same feel of inspiration (though it could be because I've seen most of it before!). I do like it better than the Tomb Kings books I've flipped through.

Verdict: The hardcover is still unnecessary, but it's "nice." The pages and binding feel a bit better than what I remember from handling store copies (though the Empire store copy seemed similar - not sure if it's a change in page style or just age that alters it a bit). $30-33 (US) is probably a decent price for the book, assuming you intend to use it. Still a bit much to start investing in a complete library of 8th edition books, but not bad for actual players. I can't imagine paying the full $41.25 for this, and if they get another price rise tacked on they might get too expensive from discounters. No buyer's remorse, which is what I was afraid of - I'll give that to my love of the undead, though. I think I'd be disappointed had I bought any of the other books.

Ebon
18-05-2012, 18:25
Ultimately, GW charge so much for the army books for exactly the same reason they charge so much for their models: Because they can.

Treadhead_1st
19-05-2012, 18:46
You would not like Australia then, $69 for the new books......


Which is fascinating, given that the AUS dollar is now technically stronger than the US dollar (.997 AUS for every US dollar as of this morning).


You're right, I wouldn't like Australia. Frankly, I'm surprised Australia has a GW-based gaming community.

I dunno, it seems like a lot, but then again I don't find it surprising that GW has far higher prices in Australia than elsewhere in the world. Difficulties shipping, taxation, exchange rates, all that stuff that is usually mentioned...

...and a $15.51 hourly minimum wage ($15.56 USD/£9.64/11.95 Euros) that seems to be left out of the discussions.

That's one hell of a lot more than the minimum wage here in the UK (£6.08). Thus I am not surprised that a UK-based company is charging a far higher price for a luxury product in a country with a far higher (theoretical) disposable income, in addition to the above-mentioned factors in legally selling their product in Australia, and getting it there.

To put it another way, The Empire Army Book (£25) equates to 4.1 hours of work in the UK; whilst in Australia ($69) it equates to 4.4 hours of work. That seems pretty even, given GW will have to pay shipping, import taxes and all the rest of it too.

woodster17
19-05-2012, 18:54
My sample size is only the VC and OK 8th edition hardbooks but it does genuinely seem to me that while I would quite happily pay £25 for such an aesthetically pleasing book, the fluff is a little disappointing. It feels like it's been dumbed down a little bit which is more than a bit annoying. Either that or it's been regurgitated to an extent where I no longer enjoy the fluff as much.