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View Full Version : Does the separation of CSM and Daemons work in 40k?



Spell_of_Destruction
04-05-2012, 00:15
I am reticent to discuss whispered rumours as if they are facts, but I noticed that one of the more recent rumours concerning the upcoming Chaos codex is that Daemons may be on their way out altogether.

I find this sad. The option for CSMs to take Daemons has always been one of the things that appealed to be most about them. It is the clearest manifestation of the Faustian pact they have made with the Chaos gods. To me, a Bloothirster exploding out of an Aspiring Champion has always been kind of faction defining.

I can understand the separation of Chaos Warriors and Daemons in WHFB. The game universe is far more geographically specific and pure Daemons have a more 'Fantasy' feel. I think that this separation has been shoehorned into 40k for marketing purposes (dual WHFB/40k Daemons release) when it really makes no sense at all.

Most agree that the current Daemon rules in the CSM codex are pretty lame. Add to that the fact that Deamons are a pretty strange army to play in 40k. I don't think I would ever have the desire to play a pure Daemon list in 40k's sci-fi setting - you seem to miss out on many of the most appealling aspects of the game. If I want to collect a pure Daemon force it makes far more sense to me to do so in WHFB (I do realise though that not everyone who plays 40k plays WHFB).

The problem is that unless GW can the existing Daemon codex I very much doubt we'll see fully realised rules for Daemons in the upcoming Chaos codex (even if the rumours that Daemons are being removed completely is untrue). Some have suggested that marked Daemons (like the current Lesser Daemons but receive a specific boost depending on their mark) could be introduced but this just seems an odd way of having two separate profiles for one unit.

If it was down to me I would just include the four Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon types and leave the rest to the Daemon codex. It's not as though there isn't any precedent for units to exist across multiple codeces.

So what do the rest of you think? Was it a mistake to separate CSMs and Daemons in 40k? Was it a cynical marketing ploy by GW or just a poorly conceived idea? Are we stuck with it? Or maybe I'm talking rubbish and Daemons are your favourite army?

I am just glad that I never followed through with the Word Bearers army I planned to collect back in 3rd edition.

Charistoph
04-05-2012, 00:26
I am reticent to discuss whispered rumours as if they are facts, but I noticed that one of the more recent rumours concerning the upcoming Chaos codex is that Daemons may be on their way out altogether.

First off, Rumors are rumors, and to be taken with a bit of salt. Meaning, they are probably not true, and you are expected to tell everyone you know. We'll have more information as the codex approaches launch. Right now, there is just too much in the wind, and none of it substantiated due to current GW policies to make a definitive answer on anything.


If it was down to me I would just include the four Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon types and leave the rest to the Daemon codex. It's not as though there isn't any precedent for units to exist across multiple codeces.

Actually, this isn't much different than what we've had in the past. You forgot a 3rd category, though, and that's the Spawn/Beast which has a rumor of still being in place. So long as they don't have to be completely generic, I'll be happy. But then again, I'm happy with completely generic, since my warband doesn't follow one of the main 4, so I can make up my own. :D


So what do the rest of you think? Was it a mistake to separate CSMs and Daemons in 40k?

Yes and No. No, in the fact that they could expand the daemonic forces, give them a lot more character, and have another army that isn't Marines. Yes, in the fact that the daemons allowed for Chaos Marines were far too generic and completely ignored their own past for simplicity's sake. But, again, the fact that I can use Chaos Warhounds as Lesser Daemons, is a good thing to me.


Was it a cynical marketing ploy by GW or just a poorly conceived idea?

Marketing ploy. They can sell more models this way without overdoing a single codex.


Are we stuck with it?

Yeup. They won't trash it now, but the next version may be hella scary.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-05-2012, 00:27
I wish they'd never been split, and hacking them even further apart (and making Word Bearers even more obsolete as a concept!) is exactly the opposite from the direction I hope for. I find I have very little enthusiasm for what amounts to just another MEQ army, as if there weren't enough of them.

Inquisitor Kallus
04-05-2012, 00:29
I personally would rather just see summoned lesser Daemons. Ive always felt that in a paticular codex the 'title-holders' should always be the stars of the show and for me Greater Daemons 'leading' a CSM force seems a little bit unappealing. However a Chaos SM Lord/DP leading his fallen brothers with cultists/traitor guard and lesser daemons as hangers on feels more appropriate. I think this allows the Chaos Daemons book to have its own thing with the bigger Daemons, and codices are not only measured by what they have in them, but should we should also be mindful of what they dont have.

That said I wouldnt be against the idea of GDs in the codex, though I probably wouldnt use them, just the lesser Daemons, saving the GDs for use in my Daemon army.

Id still like to see daemons being summoned though.

Spell_of_Destruction
04-05-2012, 00:42
Yes and No. No, in the fact that they could expand the daemonic forces, give them a lot more character, and have another army that isn't Marines. Yes, in the fact that the daemons allowed for Chaos Marines were far too generic and completely ignored their own past for simplicity's sake. But, again, the fact that I can use Chaos Warhounds as Lesser Daemons, is a good thing to me.


Maybe the best compromise would be a highly customisable daemon entry with a low base cost but with options for marks, beasts and jump infantry upgrades and a limited list of Chaos gifts/powers? This could cover the full range of daemon models with a single codex entry.

Beppo1234
04-05-2012, 00:50
I personally would rather just see summoned lesser Daemons. Ive always felt that in a paticular codex the 'title-holders' should always be the stars of the show and for me Greater Daemons 'leading' a CSM force seems a little bit unappealing. However a Chaos SM Lord/DP leading his fallen brothers with cultists/traitor guard and lesser daemons as hangers on feels more appropriate. I think this allows the Chaos Daemons book to have its own thing with the bigger Daemons, and codices are not only measured by what they have in them, but should we should also be mindful of what they dont have.



Id still like to see daemons being summoned though.

i like this, lesser daemons for CSMs, and the rest folded into the daemon 'dex

carlisimo
04-05-2012, 00:51
Chaos is too big to fit into one codex, imo. It'd take an enormous codex to fit all the legions, cultists, traitor guard, and daemons into it, and I don't see how such a list could possibly retain internal or external balance (where would the weaknesses be?). It'd be full of redundancy and completely unfocused.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it feels right to have lesser daemons together with the legions or cultists, but it seems difficult to pull off. Chaos marines + lesser daemons was fine because they had similar points values and offensive abilities, but the addition of cultists changes things a lot.

hazmiter
04-05-2012, 01:01
There are lots of issues with current dex.
If they remove daemons all together, they are shooting the proverbial foot off with a plasma cannon.
Marked daemons upgrades for lesser sounds cool, but i think they need to place daemons as being maked with the same mark as the squad that summons them, plus make allowances for said daemons to be taken in bulk if your a word bearers player.

Inquisitor Kallus
04-05-2012, 01:02
In that regard CSM dont have a unit that Space Marines have, Space Marine Scouts. I can see cultists and/or traitor Guard essentially as units slightly similar to them, only worse. Cultists could be given infiltrate, but they are literally just a unit that could be cheap and 'hordable'. It doesnt mean to say that because they are there that they have to be able to take guard tanks, artillery and the like, but literally be a unit that gives them something unique when compared to marines and other codices.

hazmiter
04-05-2012, 01:14
Hehehehe good old cultists.
I still remember the demagogue ability for the word bearers....
Yes, agreed, cultists can be a spammable filler, 20 max size, same ws, bs etc as a guardsman, with infiltrate.
Maybe allow for them to summon daemons, or have the champion take power armour just like an aspiring champ, or better yet, led by one.

Voss
04-05-2012, 01:39
I find this sad. The option for CSMs to take Daemons has always been one of the things that appealed to be most about them. It is the clearest manifestation of the Faustian pact they have made with the Chaos gods. To me, a Bloothirster exploding out of an Aspiring Champion has always been kind of faction defining.

I can understand the separation of Chaos Warriors and Daemons in WHFB. The game universe is far more geographically specific and pure Daemons have a more 'Fantasy' feel. I think that this separation has been shoehorned into 40k for marketing purposes (dual WHFB/40k Daemons release) when it really makes no sense at all.

I don't think its viable in either system. The chaos marines can pretty much stand on their own, but the daemon line (and to a lesser extent the chaos warrior line) is far too thin to stand on its own. The army lists just aren't interesting, particularly if you actually want to have some coherence to the background, or just want to go mono-god for your own reasons.

There is a lot of stuff they can toss into the CSM codex and make it work without daemons (particularly a greater emphasis on possessed and daemon engines, as the only reliable way to keep daemons in realspace for any length of time), but short of reworking the pantheon, tossing it out or adding a lot more servitor creatures, the Daemons book (in both systems) is going to remain a horrible kludge of barely workable nonsense.

I routinely have an urge to do a daemon army, and then I open up the gw armies page, run through the codex (or army book) in my head and go 'Oh, right. I can't actually do anything like what I want to.' And the urge goes away for 5-6 months or so, and the money remains unspent.

Just... don't get me started on beastmen.

hazmiter
04-05-2012, 03:12
For chaos daemons they need the option to buy in a warp gate or two so you don't need to unreliably deepstrike chaos daemons for codex daemons.
For chaos spacemarines, dark adeptus mechanicus, better possessed, and to an extent more daemon engines is the go.

Scribe of Khorne
04-05-2012, 03:59
Yeah it was a mistake to split them, and a tragic one at that. How cool would it be, instead of adding more marine units, to instead give the more unique daemon options to CSM to seperate them further from Loyalists?

What can loyalists get that are like Flamers? Bloodcrushers? Nurglings? Nothing. Instead though, they pull them out in a lame stunt to sell more kits as a stand alone. Its just a missed opportunity to make the faction really unique.

Eldartank
04-05-2012, 04:40
I think it wold be a big mistake for GW to completely remove any army/codex from the game. I think (and many probably agree with me) that they made a big mistake when they completely wrote out Squats on the release of 3rd Edition. Many people who had invested time and money in building a Squat army were certainly upset. I'm in the process of building and painting a sizeable 40k Daemon army (mostly Khorne) right now to have an opposite to my Grey Knights. I would be extremely ticked off if GW removed the Chaos Daemons army from the game - it would make my time and monetary investment into a total waste.

Chem-Dog
04-05-2012, 04:43
I am reticent to discuss whispered rumours as if they are facts, but I noticed that one of the more recent rumours concerning the upcoming Chaos codex is that Daemons may be on their way out altogether.

Nah. There's bits like this quote from the Dude's summary:-


On Daemons, theDarkGeneral has claimed that Daemon Princes could wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures. What this means is unclear. Could be he means there are no God-specicif Daemons, or that they are there, just that they don't use "Marks".

Which can be weirdly misconstrued. If you look at the Chaos Daemons Codex, the only Models that can buy a "Mark of Chaos" are the Daemon Princes, everything else has it's God associated "perks" rolled into it's normal stats and abilities. I am inclined to believe that this is what's being commented on.



Some have suggested that marked Daemons (like the current Lesser Daemons but receive a specific boost depending on their mark) could be introduced but this just seems an odd way of having two separate profiles for one unit.

Wouldn't be the first or last time they feel it necessary to give us two versions of the same thing that work differently in different books, often for no good or apparent reason. That's why Codex: Dark Eldar was so pleasing to me, Harlequins exactly as presented in Codex: Eldar (now all we need is the next Codex Eldar to behave itself and keep them as is).

I do think the current Summoned Daemons are pants but I don't feel that CSM's should be able to call on Horrors/Daemonettes/Blootletters/Plaguebearers that retain every option that they have in the Daemons books (not that there are that many options to be had), while I'm all for Khorne Armies having access to Bloodletters (and even a Thirster, possibly) there should be a trade off, smaller squad size possibly, inability to capture objectives maybe or some other way of being comparatively inferior to their "pure" equivalents, maybe the Daemons that get roped into helping CSM's are pretty low on the Daemonic pecking order.

The question then becomes- what possible niche can Daemons fill in a CSM army? Are Plague Bearers ever going to be a better choice over Plague Marines (who can do everything they do but have an armour save and shooting attacks) or are Daemonettes going to be preferable to Noise Marines (who are, currently, a little slower but can endure much more punishment and deal out much more too)?


If it was down to me I would just include the four Lesser Daemon and Greater Daemon types and leave the rest to the Daemon

Definitely the way I'd go with it too.


So what do the rest of you think? Was it a mistake to separate CSMs and Daemons in 40k? Was it a cynical marketing ploy by GW or just a poorly conceived idea? Are we stuck with it? Or maybe I'm talking rubbish and Daemons are your favourite army?

I have Daemons and I am really hoping to get a CSM army off the ground when the Codex hits. The thing that has always struck me with the Daemons Codex was the real lack of anything that's really 40K in there (aside from a recycled Defiler).
The Daemons were touted as an overflow army, essentially the stuff that they couldn't fit into the CSM army, and it has always felt like this to me. Massive bending of established fluff to justify their appearance as an independent army and virtually nothing new in the Codex that wasn't featured in The Lost and the Damned or Slaves to Darkness way back when, and just one tacked-on-at-the-end unit to make them a bit less WHFB Daemons, in space.
I'm not sure if the splitting was a cynical ploy to generate more cash or just part of of the monumentally misguided effort that was the Current CSM Codex but I am certainly hoping that the Daemons stay as a unique option to play, that they get some good new stuff and perhaps a more sensible fluff make-over. Nobody ever wanted "United Colours of Chaos".


I wish they'd never been split, and hacking them even further apart (and making Word Bearers even more obsolete as a concept!) is exactly the opposite from the direction I hope for. I find I have very little enthusiasm for what amounts to just another MEQ army, as if there weren't enough of them.

I sympathise but I honestly don't see the Word Bearers as Daemon fetishists (or Damonic Pokemon trainers) who have to be surrounded by as many varieties of neverborn as it's possible to get hold of. They're the dark templars, black paladins, the faithful of Lorgar's new creed. Not the traveling tenticular petting zoo of doom.


Chaos is too big to fit into one codex, imo. It'd take an enormous codex to fit all the legions, cultists, traitor guard, and daemons into it, and I don't see how such a list could possibly retain internal or external balance (where would the weaknesses be?). It'd be full of redundancy and completely unfocused.

Don't get me wrong, I do think it feels right to have lesser daemons together with the legions or cultists, but it seems difficult to pull off. Chaos marines + lesser daemons was fine because they had similar points values and offensive abilities, but the addition of cultists changes things a lot.


The current Vanilla Marine Codex is still a good deal chunkier than any book released subsequently, so I'd argue the fact that there's a lack of room for a book of equal, if not greater import.
The Legions each could probably be summed up in rules that occupy a page maximum plus a page for a Named Character/Generic Legion specific HQ option.

When considering Cultist and/or Traitor Guards we really don't have a lot to run with as a reasonable comparison, are we talking about a whole sub-army hidden within the CSM book (like Coteaz Inquisition armies, or the Dark Eldar carnival of Flesh) or are we talking about something far more simple?
For me they would really boil down to one single entry with a couple of wargear choices (and a few tweaks according to their allegiance) they'll be the CSM's version of Grots with a few options, they're there to suck up some damage or sit on an objective, maybe they'll even be sacrificial units that can be fired upon (just after they've been charged :evilgrin: ) but they aren't going to be "IG the greatest hits" co-starring Chaos Marines with a gazillion Lascannons backing up the berzerkers.
If you're lucky Cultist and Traitors will be two separate entries, cultists Ws/Bs2 with a robe and a knife and Traitors Ws/Bs3 with all the options available to and all the tactical applications of a single IG squad (and possibly with scouts/outflank).

Charistoph
04-05-2012, 05:10
Maybe the best compromise would be a highly customisable daemon entry with a low base cost but with options for marks, beasts and jump infantry upgrades and a limited list of Chaos gifts/powers? This could cover the full range of daemon models with a single codex entry.

3rd Edition had the pretty much the right idea. It listed the stats for all 4 Lesser Daemons, and then gave the pricing for them. For the 5th Edition, it would start with the cheapest being the "base" unit with the other 3 being "upgrades". Greater Daemons and Daemon Beasts were also set up this way. BUT, if Marks are defined as giving the same upgrades as Cult Marines and the Daemon codex get for their stats and USRs, then this is also a reasonable path to pursue.

One other thing, the list of Chaos Gifts needs to expand beyond the Marks, Wings, and Sorcerer Powers in order to help bring these Daemons beyond being every week's generic villains of the week.


Yeah it was a mistake to split them, and a tragic one at that. How cool would it be, instead of adding more marine units, to instead give the more unique daemon options to CSM to seperate them further from Loyalists?

What can loyalists get that are like Flamers? Bloodcrushers? Nurglings? Nothing. Instead though, they pull them out in a lame stunt to sell more kits as a stand alone. Its just a missed opportunity to make the faction really unique.

And yet, most of those weren't in previous codecies, and would have glutted the codex, making it far larger than it should be (even at current codex sizes). Again, this is one of those good thing/bad things. It allows Daemons to grow far beyond they would if they had to share room in the Chaos Marine book. Let's take a look at Grey Knights vs Daemonhunters. If they kept the entire Ordos aspect, they would not have as many Grey Knight units in the codex (though, most would have considered that a Good Thing;)).

insectum7
04-05-2012, 09:38
The removal of god-specific demons from the Chaos codex was pretty rough. Then they gave wolves (Flesh Hounds) and Thunderwolf Cav (Juggernauts) to Space Wolves. Unfortunate.

TimLeeson
04-05-2012, 11:27
I think it was a good move, but Daemons in 40k are vastly underdeveloped - I call this "the first codex symtom" as many "first" codex books seem to suffer from problems like that.

What they need to do IMO is go further with the Soul forge stuff. Weird freaky Daemon Engines, cyborg-demons - dammit I want to see some oldschool Doom and Doom II influences!! daemons in space can be awesome if done right - but they are not "there" yet.

the Goat
04-05-2012, 11:47
Keep them as two separate codices and remove the generic daemons from Chaos Space Marines.

Bunnahabhain
04-05-2012, 11:51
No. It's left us with:

CSM: They have enough stuff, and then some, for a cohesive army, but the current incarnation feels to be missing flavour, which a daemonic influence, such as god specific daemons, could help address.

Daemons: Underdeveloped and not a full, stand alone army yet. If FW carry on producing new stuff, and it gets incorporated into the main Daemon book, then they have a future.

Cultists: FW only. They've hit the correct level of 'borrowing' CSM/ daemon units, I think. Without this, they'd not manage to be a full army, but with they get there.

These three forces all have some flaws. All in all, I'd like to see a big bumper book of Chaos. It won't be perfect, but it could be much better, and then we'd get rid of (net effect) two forces with some flaws.

Shadow Lord
04-05-2012, 12:14
Splitting the CSm and Daemons into to Codexes was, IMHO, a good idea but the way it came out wasn't that good. Both need new codexes with a quality-injection to take them to where they belong: the ultimate 40K bad-asses!:evilgrin:
Daemons are fun, have some great hard-hitting units and some very good characters but they are too unreliable to play. The Soulgrinder should be in the new CSM book, not in the Daemon book because it's a hybrid between daemon and machine.
CSM...ah well..a missed opportunity that will hopefully be corrected in the new release. I love my Chosen unit, but that about sums up the good ideas of the current CSM-codex. The generic daemons are OK...as they should be. They shouldn't steal the thunder from the Chaos Marines, but they should still play a minor supporting role IMO. No GD's tho...we have our Princes and they should be made better with more war gear options.;)
And I love the idea of having more daemon-possessed vehicles (Decimator anyone?) with some solid abilites that, just for once, have NO NEGATIVE side-effect (except blowing up spectacular if they die...).:D
A new Daemon-codex would be more tricky to make because it would be very hard to balance everything out. No more randomness is good, but then they would need some shooting or some extra ways for cover saves to survive the first 2 turns...they can't have droppods so deepstriking would still be needed...maybe let them deepstrike within LOS of their champion or general within 18" or so...with only a minor or no scatter roll...don't know really! And their heavy support needs to be a wee bit more then marked daemon princes (that shouldn't be in there in the first place...I mean :wtf:...in the CSM codex they are generals but with the Daemon codex they are only heavy support...)

Dreadlordpaul
04-05-2012, 12:42
Keep them as two separate codices and remove the generic daemons from Chaos Space Marines.

Why? I use summoned lesser daemons with my nurgle marines army so by doing that your invalidating not only my list but other people who use them.

Kevlar
04-05-2012, 12:52
I am hoping the all the cult demons return to a fully developed viable army in the new Chaos Space Marine codex. It wouldn't invalidate the demon codex by allowing all the models to be used in the CSM codex. It would just give the owners of those models options. And chaos space marine players would be able to build actual themed lists and more exciting legion specific armies. I am also hoping for a return of actual marked support units outside of the troop slot. No more of these stupid icon carriers. I want cult terminators and raptors and real nurgle bikers.

Commotionpotion
04-05-2012, 13:13
Breaking the two apart was simply a bad idea. It broke the very clear, and to my mind, very reasonable concord established way back the 2ed Codex Chaos.

CSMs were originally designed in their 'modern' incarnation as lacking in specialist vehicles, equipment etc available to SMs. Instead, they had the boon of summoning daemonic support (which wasn't all that reliable to be quite honest) but it fit the fluff and it tended to play well. Things were they way they were for a clear reason, nicely developed in the fluff and well...reasonable.

CSMs and Daemons strike me as armies they currently don't know what to do with, rather like IG used to be. It's probably no coincidence that CSMs had one of the very odd army orgnaisations in 2ed that didn't translate very well to the 3ed and onwards paradigm - again, like IG. So we're currently still in the middle of a learning process as GW adapts the army/armies suitably to the current paradigm, which will be 6ed.

Personally, I think they hit the right pitch with 3.5 (after the unfortunate misstep that was 3.0) - unfortunately, that was marred by some odd detail decisions (Plague Marines and heavy weapons etc) and by the blatant fanboyism towards the Iron Warriors (two units that NO ONE else can use, and unlimited Obliterators? In a sub-sub-list? Really?).

Splitting the armies as they stood was never going to work without a huge investment of resources in each one. However, it was done as a quick fix, so this didn't happen. They slapped some spikes on a Vindicator and designed a new body for the Defiler, and that was pretty much it.

Result: when playing CSMs, it feel like you've had an arm cut off. When playing Daemons it feels like you've got no legs to stand on. Neither army really works properly - CSMs are just rather inferior SMs, while Daemons are simply Russian Roulette. Only in games of multiple detachments, when you can use both together, do they work - and work well, as it happens, because even with the current lists, the combination of the two is formidable indeed. I've done this a few times - ignoring the rules for CSMs Summoned Daemons, and simply going with the Codex Daemons summoning rules, but limiting them to being summoned off Icons carried by CSM units.

Daemons don't have enough units to stand alone as an army. Their deployment is too bizarre and on their own they simply don't 'feel' 40K, no matter how many clunking mecha-daemons you add in. Also, if Daemons can summon themselves virtually at will, it blows a massive hole in the background that wrecks its verisimilitude - even a fantasy universe has to make sense with itself.

CSMs suffer from Troops bloat, like the old Ork Codex used to. You've got a lot of units that are essentially the same (CSMs and Cults) pushed into seperate slots to try and convince you there's more choice than there actually is. This also creates the annoying paradigm of the two-tier Mark system, and the associated annoyance of 'Bob dropped the stick! We can no longer belieeeeve!'

The Marks of Chaos should be a set of universal rules that can simply be applied to a baseline unit - they could change their stats, equipment, USRs whatever. Suddenly, that opens up a lot of space in the Codex, since the amount of different data for individual units can be decreased. IMO you don't need a huge number of units if you have access to marks of Chaos - you can then have a small number of good units, with which you can do a huge number of things :).

Ironically, it probably opens up enough space to basically put the whole Daemon portfolio back in the CSM codex - which is where it should be IMO.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to have a pure Daemon army if you want to - it's just that you could probably do this without having a separate Daemon Codex. This would especially be the case if a notional CSM codex included ruled for things like other Daemon Engines, and making the Defiler/Soulgrinder two different variants of the same vehicle. Imagine it - you lead the force with a Daemon Prince, have Daemon Engines for support, and fill out your troops with whatever Daemons you want - AND YOU DON'T NEED TWO BOOKS TO DO IT! :). Voila - from the notional new CSM codex alone, you could make a whole army with not a CSM in sight.

(I realise I've just contradicted myself - I personally don't think a Daemons-only army is particulalry 40K, but that's just one opinion, and no one wants to see army options vanish...)

On a different subject, I hope Cultists are an option in a new CSM book. As others have said, they could be analogous to the Scouts in a SM army - CSMs don't have formal recruitment processes, but new CSMs have to come from somewhere.

They don't need to be spectacular - a single unit entry would suffice. Even as a fairly feeble unit they'd have great utility to a CSM army - expendable cannon fodder, objective holders etc.

However, Traitor Guard - there's already a perfectly reasonable way of playing Traitor Guard. It's called the Imperial Guard Codex :P.

the1stpip
04-05-2012, 13:46
Chaos Space marines should only have access to lesser generic daemons.

Then GW should release Lost and the Damned, and take all the generic stuff from codex Chaos marines, daemons and IG. That way you have a choice of which codex you use.

For example, LatD should include:

CSM, Termies, Sorcerors, Rhinos, maybe Dreads & Defilers
IG squadrons, chimeras, Rough Riders, Ogryns, Sentinels
Lesser Daemons (all flavours), Greater Daemons and maybe beasts

Bubble Ghost
04-05-2012, 13:50
Daemons absolutely deserve to have an army of their own, but even more crucially, so do Chaos Space Marines. It's the CSM who are undersold by a more generic Chaos codex - their story is strong enough and unique enough that they deserve a book in which they can be in the spotlight, to be not just constituents of a Chaos faction, but to be a Chaos Space Marine army. There should be no such thing as a "Chaos army" for the same reason that there's no such thing as an "Imperial army" - the background is bigger than that. So as well as wondering whether daemons warrant their own book, the question is as much one of whether they really fit in the CSM one, and I don't think they do. There's too much to fit in without detracting from the CSM and/or ending up with a preposterously large army list.

So, I think a unit of generic summoned daemons in the CSM book absolutely the right way to go about things - and I don't think it's a problem at all unless the rest of the CSM book isn't good enough at making the CSM themselves interesting. As a CSM player with daemons myself, I genuinely hope that it's still the case in the new CSM book. Although I wouldn't be surprised to find daemons either gone entirely (BAD), or split into perhaps slightly weakened Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Daemonettes and Horrors (not so bad).



Also, if Daemons can summon themselves virtually at will, it blows a massive hole in the background that wrecks its verisimilitude

I don't think it does. If there's a daemon army there, you just assume that there's some reason for it, don't you? I haven't read the daemon book's background but the concept doesn't really bother me at all on that score, I'm happy to assume that they're there because some event has summoned them.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-05-2012, 15:24
I sympathise but I honestly don't see the Word Bearers as Daemon fetishists (or Damonic Pokemon trainers) who have to be surrounded by as many varieties of neverborn as it's possible to get hold of. They're the dark templars, black paladins, the faithful of Lorgar's new creed. Not the traveling tenticular petting zoo of doom.Oh, that's nice. You have a personal view of the army (I'm guessing based on what they were like 10,000 years ago when their creed was "new"), and therefore everything is fine. Well, that's not my story. See, I got into Word Bearers based on their fluff and rules in the 3.5 codex. And in that fluff and those rules, their two schticks were a limited fanaticism (unimpressive in a codex otherwise chock full of fearless units) and lots and lots of daemons. Yes, that's right: they had rules right in there to let you take more daemon packs. And their fluff repeatedly mentioned how they used lots of daemons in their warfare.

AlphariusOmegon20
04-05-2012, 15:28
Does it work? No.

Should it have been done? No.

Should GW fix it? Yes.

Bunnahabhain
04-05-2012, 16:49
Does it work? No.

Should it have been done? No.

Should GW fix it? Yes.

Prize for anyone who can figure out what the above refers to....

CSM/Daemons split?
The new Tyranid book?
8th Ed fantasy?
Employing Matt Ward?
The latest round of price hikes?
Finecast?

Answer: All of them, or course!

Inquisitor Kallus
04-05-2012, 16:56
Prize for anyone who can figure out what the above refers to....

CSM/Daemons split?
The new Tyranid book?
8th Ed fantasy?
Employing Matt Ward?
The latest round of price hikes?
Finecast?

Answer: All of them, or course!

Look at the title of the thread.....

Now wheres my prize dammit!!;)


Edit: Oh for the love of all that is Tzeentch, YOU MADE MAGIC!! You're like a bonafide David Copperfield but without that blonde woman. What was her name, oh thats right Matt Damon..

Wyrmwood
04-05-2012, 17:59
It's tricky. Personally, I think that Chaos was best served by the 2nd edition book. The progression from Codex: Chaos to Codex: Chaos Space Marines and Codex: Daemons is a logical one. Chaos is so diverse and, more importantly, so chaotic in structure that a single book wouldn't do the faction (and I use that word loosely) much justice.

Honestly? I think that the best solution is a new Codex: Chaos, with limited and possibly handicapped rules allowing equipment from their (Imperial Guard, Space Marine) counter parts while focussing on the core dynamics and practices of Chaos. I.e, cults, daemons and the forge, dark mechanicus and fully corrupted and/or unique units such as the possessed, obliterators and details on the marks of chaos and their effects, with a more significant poster boy representative of this, ala the Word Bearers.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-05-2012, 18:06
Why don't they just let the books mix again? I never understood what was so bad about that, either. "CSM can take non-unique selections from the HQ and Troops portions of the CD codex", done.

Charistoph
04-05-2012, 19:08
Why don't they just let the books mix again? I never understood what was so bad about that, either. "CSM can take non-unique selections from the HQ and Troops portions of the CD codex", done.

Because that's too complicated for a certain group. Sometime back. GW corporate decided that the army books and codecies would have everything you needed to play the army all in one book.

Now remember, GW is not a game company, but a miniature company, and you can do whatever the sam hill you like so long as your opponent agrees or the TO approves.

Harbinger
04-05-2012, 21:59
Breaking the two apart was simply a bad idea. It broke the very clear, and to my mind, very reasonable concord established way back the 2ed Codex Chaos.

CSMs were originally designed in their 'modern' incarnation as lacking in specialist vehicles, equipment etc available to SMs. Instead, they had the boon of summoning daemonic support (which wasn't all that reliable to be quite honest) but it fit the fluff and it tended to play well. Things were they way they were for a clear reason, nicely developed in the fluff and well...reasonable.

CSMs and Daemons strike me as armies they currently don't know what to do with, rather like IG used to be. It's probably no coincidence that CSMs had one of the very odd army orgnaisations in 2ed that didn't translate very well to the 3ed and onwards paradigm - again, like IG. So we're currently still in the middle of a learning process as GW adapts the army/armies suitably to the current paradigm, which will be 6ed.

Personally, I think they hit the right pitch with 3.5 (after the unfortunate misstep that was 3.0) - unfortunately, that was marred by some odd detail decisions (Plague Marines and heavy weapons etc) and by the blatant fanboyism towards the Iron Warriors (two units that NO ONE else can use, and unlimited Obliterators? In a sub-sub-list? Really?).

Splitting the armies as they stood was never going to work without a huge investment of resources in each one. However, it was done as a quick fix, so this didn't happen. They slapped some spikes on a Vindicator and designed a new body for the Defiler, and that was pretty much it.

Result: when playing CSMs, it feel like you've had an arm cut off. When playing Daemons it feels like you've got no legs to stand on. Neither army really works properly - CSMs are just rather inferior SMs, while Daemons are simply Russian Roulette. Only in games of multiple detachments, when you can use both together, do they work - and work well, as it happens, because even with the current lists, the combination of the two is formidable indeed. I've done this a few times - ignoring the rules for CSMs Summoned Daemons, and simply going with the Codex Daemons summoning rules, but limiting them to being summoned off Icons carried by CSM units.

...

On a different subject, I hope Cultists are an option in a new CSM book. As others have said, they could be analogous to the Scouts in a SM army - CSMs don't have formal recruitment processes, but new CSMs have to come from somewhere.

They don't need to be spectacular - a single unit entry would suffice. Even as a fairly feeble unit they'd have great utility to a CSM army - expendable cannon fodder, objective holders etc.

However, Traitor Guard - there's already a perfectly reasonable way of playing Traitor Guard. It's called the Imperial Guard Codex :P.

@Commotionpotion: You are a wise individual.

Buddha777
04-05-2012, 22:51
I think Bubble Ghost sums up my feeling on the matter as a Chaos Marine Player; namely that chaos is too big to be in one codex. The equivalent, as pointed out, is trying to force space marines, imperial guard, and inquisition forces all in one codex which diminishes each army.

That said both chaos marine and demon codexs need a huge boost in variety, especially the latter.

DivineVisitor
04-05-2012, 23:16
The more diversity in codices the better in my opinion, thus im all for Daemons staying and lets hope Cultists get their own in due time, too many power armoured armies totting about at the moment.

big squig
05-05-2012, 00:51
They need to first just drop the daemon codex. A chaos codex that includes everything can be easily done, and it wouldn't have to be a giant tome.

They need a codex where you can play generic daemons, and specific ones. It needs to let player play a legion or renegade marine army. It need s to let player play either all daemons or all marines. And last, it needs to let players play any mix of the above.

The way to do this is through re-inventing the marks. Marks need to be a two-tier system. For example:

(Mark of Khorne: All models with the Mark of Khorne get +1 Attack. A Chosen model with the Mark of Khorne gets +1 WS and Furious Charge as well.)

All units would have access to marks (bought per model, not by banner) and would have the option to become chosen at a cost. This would allow you to either play generic marines, or khorne berzerks. Plus this would be available to lords, terms, what ever.

Demons would just be generic, but have to options to buy marks. They would NOT have the option to become chosen, but instead would get a bonus ability based of their mark. For example:

(lesser daemons with the mark of khorne get furious charge and power weapons)

(greater daemons with the mark of khonre would get a 3+ armor save, wings, and preferred enemy)

This way you could make anything you want in one book and it wouldn't be any longer than a normal codex.

I also like the idea of daemons being done like kroot. I hate how each daemon type is nicely organized. It feels so un-chaotic. Daemon units should consist of 5-20 lesser daemons, 0-5 daemonic beasts, 0-3 big daemons, and 0-1 herald.

Lornak Bloodgreed
05-05-2012, 01:32
@ O.P.

What you have to understand is that Games Workshop wants to make money and with one range of daemons-only and another range of evil space marines with throw-away daemons, they can make a lot more money left and right through miniature ranges and codices.

That being said. I feel that Chaos should be a unified faction with a single rulebook but SEPARATE miniature ranges. The single rulebook should detail the army's single unique quality, Chaos Space Marines working shoulder to shoulder with Traitor Guard and Daemons of Chaos. The problem is, how to develop the army into a unique force with synergy but keep the theme of barbaric hellspawned warriors.

Games Workshop SHOULD take the time to develop the faction into something new rather than tweaking the rules. New CSM troop minis would help btw.

Spell_of_Destruction
05-05-2012, 02:02
Demons would just be generic, but have to options to buy marks. They would NOT have the option to become chosen, but instead would get a bonus ability based of their mark. For example:

(lesser daemons with the mark of khorne get furious charge and power weapons)

(greater daemons with the mark of khonre would get a 3+ armor save, wings, and preferred enemy)



I actually really like this idea as you've proposed it.

Slaanesh LDs could get +1I and rending. GD gets +2A, counts as beast and -1 for enemies to hit in cc.

Nurgle LDs get +1T and FNP. GD gets +2W, FNP and a template attack.

Tzeentch LDs get an improved invulnerable save and a shooting/psychic attack. GD gets wings and Mastery Level 2 with 2 psychic powers.

Voss
05-05-2012, 02:48
Daemons absolutely deserve to have an army of their own, but even more crucially, so do Chaos Space Marines. It's the CSM who are undersold by a more generic Chaos codex - their story is strong enough and unique enough that they deserve a book in which they can be in the spotlight, to be not just constituents of a Chaos faction, but to be a Chaos Space Marine army. There should be no such thing as a "Chaos army" for the same reason that there's no such thing as an "Imperial army" - the background is bigger than that. So as well as wondering whether daemons warrant their own book, the question is as much one of whether they really fit in the CSM one, and I don't think they do. There's too much to fit in without detracting from the CSM and/or ending up with a preposterously large army list.

Well, thats part of the problem, really. Without the daemons there isn't anything to particularly make them stand out as anything but another Space Marine army. The chaos should be the important aspect, not a few leftover organs.



The more diversity in codices the better in my opinion, thus im all for Daemons staying and lets hope Cultists get their own in due time, too many power armoured armies totting about at the moment.
I could have accepted this once upon a time. But every. single. time. GW has fragmented chaos books, its left a stripped-out fragmented shell of an army list for each piece (and between the two systems, its happened a good half-a-dozen times, what with subsequent reunifications and later splitting again). The only thing of note its ever produced is angry players who no longer have a valid army.

And considering how little daemons have been developed from the original Realm of Chaos books (furies, which are rubbish, and screamers, which are a variant of discs), the fact that they do it without adding anything to the concepts is maddening. If Chaos Daemons had hit the shelves with 8-10 new things (including some undivided stuff to help make mono-god lists viable), it wouldn't be nearly as bad. But it was a bad copy/paste job of units with some bizarre retcons to the established background.

althathir
05-05-2012, 03:00
I personally would rather just see summoned lesser Daemons. Ive always felt that in a paticular codex the 'title-holders' should always be the stars of the show and for me Greater Daemons 'leading' a CSM force seems a little bit unappealing. However a Chaos SM Lord/DP leading his fallen brothers with cultists/traitor guard and lesser daemons as hangers on feels more appropriate. I think this allows the Chaos Daemons book to have its own thing with the bigger Daemons, and codices are not only measured by what they have in them, but should we should also be mindful of what they dont have.

That said I wouldnt be against the idea of GDs in the codex, though I probably wouldnt use them, just the lesser Daemons, saving the GDs for use in my Daemon army.

Id still like to see daemons being summoned though.

Personally I really like this ideal, and I think Inquisitor Kallus is right about GD stealing the spotlight Crons used to be the same way (didn't fight them once w/o c'tan till the new book). Would like to see the named daemons though, with maybe a generic lesser aswell it just fits better IMO.

Reivax26
05-05-2012, 03:47
Remember when Chaos Lords could actually take Daemonic Powers and didn't suck? I sure do. I understand why they seperated them in the first place. They were too powerful together. On the other hand if you were going to split them apart then you shouldn't have neutered the Chaos Marines and made the Daemons a nightmare to try to play. I tried, the dice gods know that I tried to stay loyal to the Daemons that I had and I did for 2 years. I lost on 2 final tables at tournaments and it broke me. I lost to shooty as hell armies that I had to try to land in front of to be able to hurt and my Monstrous Creatures were being blown to pieces the turn they landed. Its just too much. Make them harder to kill or maybe don't give people ludicrous abilities to shaft them. Want to see the saddest game ever? Watch a Daemon army fight Dark Eldar with all those splinter weapons...I swear I would rather fight 3k worth of Grey Knights with a 2k Daemon army than to ever see those little bastards again.

Voss
05-05-2012, 04:22
Yeah, the daemons aren't what made that edition of the codex ridiculously powerful. It was the absurd combos you could pile on characters (and aspiring champions) and the various bonuses you could get for particular legions.

Kevlar
05-05-2012, 06:57
Yeah, the daemons aren't what made that edition of the codex ridiculously powerful. It was the absurd combos you could pile on characters (and aspiring champions) and the various bonuses you could get for particular legions.

Well, having units of st5 power weapon wielding bloodletters assaulting out of deep strike off an icon was pretty OTT. That and facing four basilisks or 12 obliterators or a mix of either in every iron warriors list.

hazmiter
05-05-2012, 07:19
Remember when Chaos Lords could actually take Daemonic Powers and didn't suck? I sure do. I understand why they seperated them in the first place. They were too powerful together. On the other hand if you were going to split them apart then you shouldn't have neutered the Chaos Marines and made the Daemons a nightmare to try to play. I tried, the dice gods know that I tried to stay loyal to the Daemons that I had and I did for 2 years. I lost on 2 final tables at tournaments and it broke me. I lost to shooty as hell armies that I had to try to land in front of to be able to hurt and my Monstrous Creatures were being blown to pieces the turn they landed. Its just too much. Make them harder to kill or maybe don't give people ludicrous abilities to shaft them. Want to see the saddest game ever? Watch a Daemon army fight Dark Eldar with all those splinter weapons...I swear I would rather fight 3k worth of Grey Knights with a 2k Daemon army than to ever see those little bastards again.

Back on the day when you could run a str 10 tank killing machine....
And yeah dark eldar are a pain.....

Delicious Ron
05-05-2012, 15:07
-Lots of wise stuff-

However, Traitor Guard - there's already a perfectly reasonable way of playing Traitor Guard. It's called the Imperial Guard Codex :P.

You were so close to a great post, then you had to ruin it :(

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2012, 05:23
...facing four basilisks...in every iron warriors list.It was never legal for Iron Warriors to field more than a single basilisk.

totgeboren
06-05-2012, 09:29
There has been some rumours about allies being back in 6:ed. If they allow allies, I would not mind the removal of daemons from the CSM book. God-themed marines would get proper marked daemons, and with a bit of luck, IG and daemons could ally too, meaning you can have some puny mortals to summon the horrible daemons from the warp. It would work much better thematically than now, when the daemons just show up with 'just like that'. IG and CSM allying would give us all the WB and AL armies we wanted (imagine IG vets with the AL, and Chenkovs conscripts for the WB. Pretty sweet! :evilgrin: ).

CaptainGallas
06-05-2012, 09:37
Yes they did right to split them up, but they didn't put enough work to it.
GW should not go back, they should go forward! Expand the world of Chaos!

Ever played Zelda? Fought dark Link? An evil version of yourself. That is chaos!
Chaos is everywhere, where there is good, there is evil.
If you succumb to your evil thoughts, they will grow, chaos will listen, nurish and possess your mind.

Space marines goes evil - you have the CSM.
Imperial Guard and John Doe - Traitor Guard and Cultists

The best of the best, the space marine Elite force and no 1 Daemon hunters - Grey Knights, should have their arch enemies in the Chaos Daemons.
Today, using the GK weaponry against Daemons is like bringing a Howitzer to a swordfight.
It shouldn't be. The deamons should be the elite chaos force, and the grey knight should need those weapons to make it an even fight!

Yes there is Tau on the eastern fringes of the galaxy, there's is some bugs comming, there are the noble and few Eldar and their dark cousins, there are some ancient robots, and some angry green guys, but the real battle in the 40k universe has been between the Imperium and Chaos for 10.000 years now.
The Xenos races are there to add some flavour, they are niether on the good or evil side, they fight both, and eachother.
Mankind would rule the galaxy if chaos hadn't stopped them, there would be no war, in the sweet sunshine of the far future there would be only peace and 20 Primarchs would be sipping coffee with their Emperor dad.
Chaos is the only true enemy of the Imperium, they need to be expanded!

The Imperium has codexes for: Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Ultramarines/vanilla, Imperial Guard and a WD SOB.
Chaos have? An old Chaos Space Marine codex, a weak Daemon codex and an outdated Legions of the damned booklet.
The dark side needs more codexes, not less. More complex armies, not simplified.

Come on GW - give us som depth to chaos! No more generic CSM, no more weak Daemons, and bring forth the billions of traitors and cultists!

Commotionpotion
06-05-2012, 12:49
"You were so close to a great post, then you had to ruin it"

Ruin what? When an Imperial Guard regiment turns traitor, it generally shoots its Commissars, along with anyone else who won't convert. It then continues operating pretty much like it would normally, using the same training regimes and equipment. This how they fight - they don't give up the military training, they just replace their political and religious doctrines.

A true 'Traitor Guard' force - at least one early in its treachery, is literally best represented by an Imperial Guard force that has a questionable taste in banners, icons and decoration. Chances are they won't even be that much afflicted by mutation.

The FW Vraks lists represent what happens when a regiment falls further from the light - parts of its doctrine and equipment start to disintegrate through lack of care, lack of resupply and creeping indiscipline, but they still largely hold true to the Imperial standards they trained to, because they work.

By the time a regiment gets to a point where it is full on 'Traitor Guard', all that discipline will have gone out the window as more and more of its number succumb to mutation, insanity and psychic trauma. At that point, what you've got left is a gaggle of Chaos Cultists little different to the ragged bands of desperadoes who start Chaos-inspired rebellions on Imperial worlds - little more than a bunch of poorly armed civilians and thugs.

At least that's the way I see - again, 'tis only my personal point of view. But the fact remains - unless there's more or less a direct port of the Vraks traitor concept into 40K (and why would there be, because it is simply a duplication of data) they do not have enough to distinguish themselves from regular Guard, while at the same time being too substantial to be squashed into a codex that is primarily about CSMs.

Charistoph
06-05-2012, 22:00
Truth be told, there is a difference between Traitor Guard and Chaos Guard. One is just pissed at their Commisars and the Imperium, one has chosen to listen to the Warp. Traitor Guard should be done by Codex: Imperial Guard. Chaos Guard can only be "legally" run through a Forgeworld book.