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SilentTempest
05-05-2012, 14:58
So, before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, yes, I've looked for similar posts, and no, I haven't found any that really answer the question I want to ask. If I've missed them, please feel free to point me at them (a link would be much appreciated).

I'm looking for an army to do, mostly as a painting project, but I like to be able to play with anything I buy. I play in a very small group, so don't want to field things that are going to spoil the fun for my group.

I've had a long hiatus, and am just getting back into things. I understand from what I've read that Grey Knights are generally considered very strong. What I'm trying to understand is what makes them this way. Is everything undercosted? Or is it just a few units that are crazy good, that get fielded by everyone, and skew people's viewpoint (and thus, if I limited the number I took, they GK army I fielded would be a bit more in line with the power of your average army out there).

To summarise my question, WHY are Grey Knights viewed as an extremely powerful army?

Once again, I'm sure this has come up, but I can't find an answer to this specific questions, so apologies if I'm digging up old topics.

Kevlar
05-05-2012, 15:10
Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better. They break many core rules like stacking the same psychic power or scoring vehicles. Army wide force weapons and storm bolter troops cheaper and better than anyone else. 4d6 rending snipers. Monkeys with lascannons and multimeltas on their fingers, cheaper than what tac marines pay for just adding a lascannon on to a devastator. Oh and a host of overpowered special characters that almost all provide some army wide rule.

Mr Zoat
05-05-2012, 15:14
Several basic units are a bit too cheap for what they do. The obvious offenders are Strike Squads (stormbolters and S5 improved Force Weapons), Death Cult Assassins (3 attacks with power weapons and a silly statline for 15 points) and Purifiers (like Strike Squads only with better gear, A2 and a broken psychic power). I don't know how anyone thought that Halberds giving +2I was sensible. Their tanks generally ignore stunned and shaken.

In summary, you know how Space Wolves and Blood Angels get called "Marines, but better"? That.

Edit: Just seen post above. Jokaero have a useless special ability and cost 35 points for a bad Imperial Guard heavy weapon team. They are one of the few things that are a bit underpowered.

sycopat
05-05-2012, 15:15
Is everything undercosted? Or is it just a few units that are crazy good, that get fielded by everyone, and skew people's viewpoint

IMO, a little from column A, a lot from column B. The undercosting means that in places where people don't field optimized lists, the grey knights are powerful and hard to beat. And the variety of Spammy power list builds they have makes them very powerful in more competitive settings too.

Clarkson
05-05-2012, 15:23
to get the gist of the hatred of gk's some people have... for 100pts you can field 5 marines, in armour that gives -1LD for psychic attacks against them, have 2 spychic, one that makes them +1str in cc, before stuff like hammers double your strength, the other that causes all teleport homers or deep strikes within 12" of them to cease to work.. so they scatter fully... and any thing that ends its DS within 12" suffers a mishap. and to cap it off? they are armed with 5 Force weapons for free. and for 50pts more they can have 5 hammers that is str10 after hammerhand, still a force weapon. or halberds that make them +2I permanently .

and that is considered one of the weaker PA squads.

forgot to mention they have 5 stormbolters.

for 100pts you get what other armies need 2-300pts at least to replicate... and as i said.. they are one of the worse options

wyvirn
05-05-2012, 15:35
The are more Tyranid Hunters than Daemon Hunters. If Tyranids were on life support, they're competitively dead now. I don't think there was a single Nid player at Adepticon.

meltedwing
05-05-2012, 15:59
Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better.

Incorrect. One significant thing missing from the GK codex (and I'm sure it's missing on purpose) is the ability to buy storm shields on actual GK (some inquisition still get them).

You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

You can't take drop pods.

You can't take missiles, lascannons or meltas on heavy support infantry

You can't split fire from heavy support infantry

You can't take lightning claws.

You can't take sniper squads.

You can't take landspeeders or bike squads.

You don't get Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds or Thunderfire Cannons.

So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

I'm not saying they aren't powerful and cool, but there are a ton of things you don't get as GK. In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.

minionboy
05-05-2012, 16:35
So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

I didn't see you list a single special rule... They also don't get Carnifexes or Monoliths.

Gig
05-05-2012, 16:41
I didn't see you list a single special rule... They also don't get Carnifexes or Monoliths.
Well you could argue that a Dreadknight with Daemon Hammer is a cheaper Carnifex that just happens to be superior in every single way.

jonadaya
05-05-2012, 16:44
They also don't get Carnifexes or Monoliths.

seeing as both of those are quite bad now, why should they? :D

Gaargod
05-05-2012, 18:06
I always say there 2 elements to making a unit 'broken'. One is it being undercosted, the other is it being overpowered - yes, they are different.

Undercosted is when something is just too cheap for what it provides. E.g. Strike squads. Compare to the basic vanilla marine - for 4pts they upgrade bolter to storm bolter, upgrade close combat weapon to power (force) weapon, get 2 excellent psychic powers and the Aegis. If you compare them to the much superior Grey Hunters, they're still a great deal for 5pts more. However, with the possible exception of the very silly Warp-quake power, they're not inherently overpowered, just underpriced.

Overpowered is something like psychotroke or rad grenades. They're just silly debuffs, which should not exist.


Example: death cult assassins - Ws5 I6 S4 A3 power weapons means they chop stuff very well. But to be fair, T3 5++ isn't amazing protection on the return (it's not bad, but it's hardly superb). The problem is that they only cost 15pts.
Decent comparisons are slightly hard to find, but Bloodletters aren't a million miles away. Bloodletters go down to A2 I4, but get T4 and furious charge. Fearless and the stupid daemonic assault rules make it difficult even then but... Point aside, bloodletters are 16pts. This would probably be fine (or a slight raise for DCA), except for the fact they can take transports. Transports, more importantly, with the assault vehicle rule. This makes them a lot more difficult to deal with.
They are then made much worse by being in Henchman squads. Where you can take a crusader with his damn storm shield for 15pts. And he's still got reasonable stats and a power weapon! Mixed squads of these bad boys are then, especially in assault vehicles, very very difficult to deal with.

Purifiers are just stupid. Start with the underpriced strike squad member. Then trade his Warp-quake for Cleansing Flame, which is a foul thing, and give him +1A (and +1LD, but not very important as Justicars are all Ld9). Oh, and his weaponry options all get a lot cheaper/more access. Admittedly, he becomes an elite choice not a troops, but you can actually make them troops if it comes to that. They're straight up underpriced, and cleansing flame makes them overpowered.


Lots of the army is like that. You will struggle to find a unit which isn't one, or both, of the two to some degree. When you start including buffs, it becomes almost impossible.

WildWeasel
05-05-2012, 18:15
And then there's the psyflemen, which are proof positive that points costing in 40K is completely arbitrary and random.

Upgrade 2 S4 24" range shots to S5: 5 points.

Upgrade 4 twin-linked S7 48" range shots to S8 (oh and it takes two Weapon Destroyed results to fully eliminate them): 5 points.

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 18:21
I always say there 2 elements to making a unit 'broken'. One is it being undercosted, the other is it being overpowered - yes, they are different.

Undercosted is when something is just too cheap for what it provides. E.g. Strike squads. Compare to the basic vanilla marine - for 4pts they upgrade bolter to storm bolter, upgrade close combat weapon to power (force) weapon, get 2 excellent psychic powers and the Aegis. If you compare them to the much superior Grey Hunters, they're still a great deal for 5pts more. However, with the possible exception of the very silly Warp-quake power, they're not inherently overpowered, just underpriced.

Overpowered is something like psychotroke or rad grenades. They're just silly debuffs, which should not exist.


Example: death cult assassins - Ws5 I6 S4 A3 power weapons means they chop stuff very well. But to be fair, T3 5++ isn't amazing protection on the return (it's not bad, but it's hardly superb). The problem is that they only cost 15pts.
Decent comparisons are slightly hard to find, but Bloodletters aren't a million miles away. Bloodletters go down to A2 I4, but get T4 and furious charge. Fearless and the stupid daemonic assault rules make it difficult even then but... Point aside, bloodletters are 16pts. This would probably be fine (or a slight raise for DCA), except for the fact they can take transports. Transports, more importantly, with the assault vehicle rule. This makes them a lot more difficult to deal with.
They are then made much worse by being in Henchman squads. Where you can take a crusader with his damn storm shield for 15pts. And he's still got reasonable stats and a power weapon! Mixed squads of these bad boys are then, especially in assault vehicles, very very difficult to deal with.

Purifiers are just stupid. Start with the underpriced strike squad member. Then trade his Warp-quake for Cleansing Flame, which is a foul thing, and give him +1A (and +1LD, but not very important as Justicars are all Ld9). Oh, and his weaponry options all get a lot cheaper/more access. Admittedly, he becomes an elite choice not a troops, but you can actually make them troops if it comes to that. They're straight up underpriced, and cleansing flame makes them overpowered.


Lots of the army is like that. You will struggle to find a unit which isn't one, or both, of the two to some degree. When you start including buffs, it becomes almost impossible.

Yet you forget how small a pure grey knight army is and when they are out numbered by even a mech marine army you know somethings wrong

Bunnahabhain
05-05-2012, 18:32
Let us take the example of the Vindicare assassin. They're supposed to be the best sniper out. They are defined ( mainly) by two things:

The ability to pick any model they can see as a target, even if they're in combat, can't usually be picked out, etc, etc.

Their special ammo.

Now, if we look at the next best shooting special characters in the game- i.e Telion, Maugan Ra, they don't get anything half as good as this ability or ammo. The living incarnation of death from afar, with thousands of years of experience....doesn't have the skills of this guy.

Their ammo is also rather good. Their anti-tank round, for instance, is the best ranged AT thing in the game, outside of Titan class weapons. It's better than the IG medusa, with a huge ordnance weapon, and a specialist Anti-tank upgrade.

Now, that gives you a good flavour of a typical Grey knight unit. Repeat for most of the book.

Kevlar
05-05-2012, 20:25
And even with all their great stuff, most people are just going to spam 3 henchmen in a razorback with psybolt ammo because its like 60 points, scoring, fairly survivable, and excellent at punching holes in stuff. It is truly unbelievable the range of cheddar that army has access to.

Clarkson
05-05-2012, 21:29
And even with all their great stuff, most people are just going to spam 3 henchmen in a razorback with psybolt ammo because its like 60 points, scoring, fairly survivable, and excellent at punching holes in stuff. It is truly unbelievable the range of cheddar that army has access to.

*72pts for cheapest (with psybolt, 67 w/o)

millzamus
06-05-2012, 01:41
The general weakness that i have found grey knights is that they will most of the time be outnumbered by every army out there, Force weapons and storm bolters can only get you so far, as quantity will most likely beat quality. They are still only 3+, so they still die just like normal marines.

Kevlar
06-05-2012, 01:57
The general weakness that i have found grey knights is that they will most of the time be outnumbered by every army out there, Force weapons and storm bolters can only get you so far, as quantity will most likely beat quality. They are still only 3+, so they still die just like normal marines.

What other army can field 6 razorbacks full of troops and +1 str guns for 432 points? And then there is the psyrifle dreads. Yeah, they are so overpriced... The three units of purifiers with their 12 psycannons are just the icing on the cake.

Draconis
06-05-2012, 02:47
Incorrect. One significant thing missing from the GK codex (and I'm sure it's missing on purpose) is the ability to buy storm shields on actual GK (some inquisition still get them).


You can't take drop pods.

You can't take missiles, lascannons or meltas on heavy support infantry

You can't split fire from heavy support infantry

You can't take lightning claws.

You can't take sniper squads.

You can't take landspeeders or bike squads.

You don't get Whirlwinds or Thunderfire Cannons.

So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

I'm not saying they aren't powerful and cool, but there are a ton of things you don't get as GK. In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.


Sounds like CSM to me.

Avatar_exADV
06-05-2012, 02:49
Part of it's just the design philosophy. Marine armies (and, to some extent, everything else) have trade-offs to make. "Oh, I want a fighty unit, so I'll take these guys for fightiness, but they won't be especially shooty." "Oh, I want these shooty guys, just hope I don't get into CC with them." "Oh, I want some generalists who have both, I've got to lay out mega points for them."

GK... just aren't forced to make the same tradeoffs. Force weapons on every Marine model mean that their shooty units are still plenty scary in CC. They get a cheap, stronger power fist wherever they want. They ALWAYS get to shoot before assaulting, even their heavy weapon. Incidentally, that heavy weapon is a move-and-fire RENDING autocannon that, er, shoots double if you happen to stay put.

Sure, you can bling out some GK units and they get expensive quickly. But with a relatively inexpensive HQ, suddenly you have access to cheap troops, who are also customizable to a crazy degree. And have full access to transports. And can take a few heavy weapons per squad (and can take even more if you don't mind bringing the monkey!) For only a few more points than I can bring a unit of -grots-, GK can put a scoring unit in a Chimera. This frees them to spend as many points on bling as they like - or to just bring along a lot of the underpriced SS or purifiers (or the hardly-overpriced termies...)

And there's no problem balancing your scoring with your bling, because there are HQs that bring along the ability to throw special rules on some of your troops. Not enough scoring units for this mission? Here, unshakeable backfield dreadnought, you can be scoring too unlike every other walker in the game! Got enough scoring units? You can hand out scout (or, good gravy, counter-attack). But, you say, that limits their HQ selection? Sure, except that there are no less than TWO special characters that can also hand out the same rules. Oh, and you've also got access to unbelievably cheap HQs which you can then bling precisely to taste, or just keep them inexpensive and stack the unbalanced grenade options on 'em...

They're not unbeatable, 'kay? They don't necessarily break the game. They're not Daemons in Fantasy 7th ed. But they have a lot of advantages and where other people have to make tradeoffs when putting a list together, GK get lots of units that have all the good aspects wrapped up into one.

I do think that if future editions significantly hurt transport survivability, that will have a big impact on how good GK are. The reason that "they die just like Marines" isn't a big disadvantage is that, by and large, they aren't walking; they ride in cheap (and super-resilient) transports just like regular Marines, so you've got to do the usual anti-tank thing before you can start rolling for those 3+ armor saves. In an environment where the Razorback isn't a mobile invulnerable pillbox, their disadvantage (points) would be increased...

Reivax26
06-05-2012, 02:59
According to all the fluff that has ever been about them they are supposed to be the Best space marines in the galaxy, period. However there is one thing in the codex that infuriated me beyond all that has ever been...anywhere. To think that a Grey Knight Grand Master could carve his name into the chest of a Primarch, let alone a Primarch who has been granted Daemonhood, is the biggest joke in the history of this game. There isn't anything that even compares to how ludicrous that is. I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

As far as them being underpriced and overpowered yes they are all of that. Purifiers and the Draigowing alone are enough to infuriate most people. If the Vindicare only got one shot of each type of its special ammo then it wouldn't be bad. Thats how it was before. Nowadays the bastard can sit in the top of a building and blow up a Land Raider every turn it can shoot, which is stupid OP.

lantzkev
06-05-2012, 03:24
You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

Booo freaking hooo...

Seriously that is not a disadvantage. Sorry it's harder to spam landraiders....

As for the sniper comment, this has always been the case, and it's always been the case that it's 150pts nearly in a easy to kill model. Go get some assault in it and/or heavy weapons on it.

Geep
06-05-2012, 03:53
Almost every Grey Knight unit can fulfill any roll needed- all have decent shooting, nasty combat and usually a slew of special rules on top of that. As an example, even their Terminators can safely assault into cover by using grenades- breaking an unwritten rule that's been in the game for ages.

Being such a (often) small army model wise, it does make sense to have some versatility, but GK's overdo it. As an example, Eldar are also known for having expensive elite squads- Howling Banshees aren't feared for taking out walkers, Striking Scorpions aren't feared for their shooting, Fire Dragons can't handle a combat- all other elites from other armies have to make compromises. In a random-draw style game with pre-set lists, Grey Knights will almost always have multiple ways to take out specific enemy units. Enemy armies may be lucky if they have one or two squads that are specialised against anything in the entire GK army.

If list tailoring is allowed with opponent knowledge in mind it doesn't seem so bad- GK can pull out all sorts of nasty specialised tricks (in addition to all-round awesomeness), but when an enemy army knows to be fully armed with plasma or meltaguns the GK's will actually have to try if they want to win.

Edit:
I should also point out that known rules issues are clearly exploited by GK's in some cases- wound allocation rules in multi-armed, multi-wound squads are a serious pain- and probably a part of the reason things like Tyranid Warriors lost almost all of their possible variety in their last book. But then GK's get Palladins, with a heap of weapon options, upgrades, etc. Causing a single casualty on these guys is pretty damn difficult for most enemy units.

Justicar_Freezer
06-05-2012, 04:28
I played Grey Knights back in the Codex Demonhunter days and enjoyed them back then and was intially happy to get a new codex. After reading through the new book a few times I like it but there are some things I just can't ever see taking because to me they just don't fit. Personally it really feels like the codex should have been two books. Codex Grey Knights and Codex Inqusition.

I get the feeling alot of the problem seems to be the ability to take a special character that lets you spam multiple cheap henchmen squads that all count as troops. To me that just seems wrong. I think it should be one way or ther other either all Grey Knights or all Henchmen/Inquisitors/inducted troops with maybe one or two elite Grey Knight units. Because from a fluff standpoint if the grey knights are mobilizing in force any demonic incursion would be far to extreme for bands of henchmen to handle and on the inverse if an Inquisitor is taking to the mean streets/battle fields he won't want to bring one of the most secretive and elite space marine chapters with him in force.

Really alot of the special character seems to be silly as well. I mean I love that you can run an all terminator list because to me it feels fluffy but why give the option to make it into an all paladin list that is just silly....then there's Crowe who I just don't agree with from a fluff stand point. It says that the purifers are supposed to be a very rare branch of the grey knights except in times of dire peril or something to that effect. So I really think that the unit should have been a 0-1 selection and that if Crowe was included he could have removed that 0-1 limit, maybe made them scoring but kept them in the elite section.

It just seems that the codex fosters cheesy lists. At my last FLGS the owner picked up a Grey Knights army when the book came out and the second time I talked to him he'd jumped on the henchmen/purifer bandwagon. I just don't get it. I think the new Codex can be interesting (mind you I've never played it and there were alot of things I prefered in the old book like the way nemesis force weapons worked.) if the player approaches writing an army list from a fluff stand point. Personally I have over 35 of both the 4th edition metal terminators and some of the old 2nd edition terminators and my initial plan when the book came out was to make a Terminator army supported by only things that could deep strike so Dreads, and Dknights simply because I like the model others miliege of said model may vary and an all power armored army. The idea was that the Power armor group was the initial punch of the battlegroup and if the incursion was to bad the terminators were the hammer blow to be teleported in where needed. Though I just haven't been able to find the motiviation to do it.

So to close since I got a bit long winded there, I think the big problems seem to be Special characters which open up over the top spam abuse which leads to whatever weakness the codex is meant to have being ignored.

Dark Primus
06-05-2012, 08:06
The are more Tyranid Hunters than Daemon Hunters. If Tyranids were on life support, they're competitively dead now. I don't think there was a single Nid player at Adepticon.


This says everything.


Edit: have no idea why two images comes up.

RunepriestRidcully
06-05-2012, 08:26
I played Grey knights with the codex Daemonhunters, and just stopped when the wardtrocity came out. Terrible fluff is one thing, baby carriers another. Being so broken that in one club I was at they agreed opponents could have 500-1000pts extra in games, and even then they still struggled to get draws agaisnt the grey knights?
As someone who used to enjoy the challenge of the old codex, I've just shelved my Grey knight untill either another codex or I find people who would be willing to let me use the old one.

AmonRa
06-05-2012, 09:35
I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

Dude, really? That one sentence (as hilariously stupid as it is, granted), not only made you dismiss the army, but made you a true Grey Knight hater? Wow, talking bout hilarious.

On topic: The Grey Knights are certainly more competitive than they should be. I've played GK for about four years and when the new codex hit, I was both excited and disappointed at the same time. Now i have my friend who plays Space Wolves constantly whine at me because of them. And I understand him to a certain degree. If you're fun players, non competitive, there should be ways to work around these issues, like putting a 0-1 to certain units. Sad this has to be done, but I prefer it to shelving a whole army. In tournaments though, well, that's a tough nut to crack.

El_Machinae
06-05-2012, 12:31
If you're playing in a small group, you could just balance it out by letting them play with a 10-20% point advantage. You could just resign yourself to the fact that you'll have to lose most of the time to avoid having people complain about your army. If you're mature enough to enjoy playing games you're likely to lose, then they're a fun army. Remember, if the army is 'broken', then people would have to shoulder that same maturity in order to play *you*

Renka
06-05-2012, 14:20
All rules-issues aside they are very well represented. I don't know if it can be blamed on the "flavour of the month"-effect, but they have sky-rocketed in popularity. I think a lot of it comes from the fact they are the most "elite" army out there, which apparently is in high demand.

I understand not wanting to spend a fortune on a horde army, I understand not wanting to spend a life-time painting your force, but the model count in lists out there is pretty crazy. In a meta where special characters tend to change the force organization chart around, seeing what could readily be identified as actual "troops" is getting rarer! I think this is kind of a shame, every model you field shouldn't need to have their unique special rules. Call me old fashioned, but I like to see some actual grunts on the table. :p

Mikial
06-05-2012, 15:30
Incorrect. One significant thing missing from the GK codex (and I'm sure it's missing on purpose) is the ability to buy storm shields on actual GK (some inquisition still get them).

You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

You can't take drop pods.

You can't take missiles, lascannons or meltas on heavy support infantry

You can't split fire from heavy support infantry

You can't take lightning claws.

You can't take sniper squads.

You can't take landspeeders or bike squads.

You don't get Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds or Thunderfire Cannons.

So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

I'm not saying they aren't powerful and cool, but there are a ton of things you don't get as GK. In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.

I have to agree with meltedwing. Every army has special stuff. Admittedly, Eldar REALLY need a new codex, but they also have special stuff that GK (or anybody else) don't like holofields. GK are supposed to be ultra elite demon hunters. Some things in the list may be under-pointed, but others are over, such as the upgrade costs for Inquisition warbands. And for that matter, who ever heard of an inquisitor without an option for personal field invulnerable armor saves?

Every army has cheese. How about the new necrons ability to make your own guys attack themselves in CC? Ever watched a Hive Tyrant slash itself to death instead of attacking the enemy?

Angelwing
06-05-2012, 19:28
It has to be said, I've had a few groans from opponents when I pull out my knights, but then they realise it's still my old daemonhunters army, so no transports, no dreadknights, no twin auto cannon dreadnoughts and so on, they actually have a good game. Sure, most of my strike squad chaps have halberds (because thats what the model came with..) and I'll use every advantage my models come with, but the games are not walkovers for me in the slightest.
I also use a vindicare. I used him all the time in codex daemonhunters and he was awful. I'm going to enjoy using him now when he can actually achieve something before the enemy gets wise and blasts him to bits.

TLDR: in the pregame talk with your opponent (people still do that right?) ask greyknight players to tone it down a bit by swapping out some of the gittish stuff. I think you will find you will both have a better game.

Sami
06-05-2012, 19:45
Those issues in full:

Units: Corteaz, Crowe, Draigo
Wargear: Psybolt ammo
Powers: Warp Quake

The 3 special characters break the codex, allowing you to field Henchmen, Purifiers and Paladins as Troops respectively. What should be units fighting over the Elite slots can suddenly be spammed and all are scoring. Cleansing Flame isn't so bad when you can only take 3 units of Purifiers max, which cuts out 3 Psyflemen and is a big dent in your points allowance when you still need Troops. DCA points are absolutely fine when the only time you will see them is if an Inquisitor is taken as an HQ choice, at which point there will only be one unit (per Inquisitor). Paladins I can't take seriously as I play DE, but the above applies to them as well. Dropping 55 points on 2W terminators becomes a very tough decision when you still need to budget for Troops.

Psybolt Ammo is fine on normal squads. Perhaps a slight price increase, but I don't have too many issues with it. However, it is horrifically underpriced on vehicles. 5 points to give +1S on weapons that are twin-linked anyway, and can now punch through light armour vehicles with even more ease is daft. It needs a massive price hike so taking it is more of a tactical choice and not an auto-include. Then again, IMO Dreadnoughts and Razorbacks are too cheap in general.

Warp Quake is just dumb because it completely screws over any chance Daemons might have. GK are meant to be the best at fighting Daemons. This does not mean that they must auto-win against them.

GK infantry have some big disadvantages in the fact that all of their shooting is capped at 24". However, the 48" shooting on their vehicles (all at +1S) more than makes up for this. Combined with being able to spam elite units as Troops and you have some big issues. Without the special characters, it's nearly balanced.

Bunnahabhain
06-05-2012, 20:30
I'd add Fortitude to that list as well.

The ability to make your vehicles virtually immune to shaken and stunned, with only a very unlikely downside, for next to nothing? Really?

Draconis
06-05-2012, 20:31
According to all the fluff that has ever been about them they are supposed to be the Best space marines in the galaxy, period. However there is one thing in the codex that infuriated me beyond all that has ever been...anywhere. To think that a Grey Knight Grand Master could carve his name into the chest of a Primarch, let alone a Primarch who has been granted Daemonhood, is the biggest joke in the history of this game. There isn't anything that even compares to how ludicrous that is. I had though about building an army of them and after reading that one thing not only did I not buy the army, I have made it my personal goal to crush every Grey Knight player that I run into.

As far as them being underpriced and overpowered yes they are all of that. Purifiers and the Draigowing alone are enough to infuriate most people. If the Vindicare only got one shot of each type of its special ammo then it wouldn't be bad. Thats how it was before. Nowadays the bastard can sit in the top of a building and blow up a Land Raider every turn it can shoot, which is stupid OP.

This was mistaken. Carving your name into someones heart is a meaning. I caught on after playing some video games where they referenced it and some books. It means to make sure they never forget you. As in, if I wrecked your car, torched your house, i carved my name on your heart. you'll never forget it.



All rules-issues aside they are very well represented. I don't know if it can be blamed on the "flavour of the month"-effect, but they have sky-rocketed in popularity. I think a lot of it comes from the fact they are the most "elite" army out there, which apparently is in high demand.

I understand not wanting to spend a fortune on a horde army, I understand not wanting to spend a life-time painting your force, but the model count in lists out there is pretty crazy. In a meta where special characters tend to change the force organization chart around, seeing what could readily be identified as actual "troops" is getting rarer! I think this is kind of a shame, every model you field shouldn't need to have their unique special rules. Call me old fashioned, but I like to see some actual grunts on the table. :p

Theres nothing "elite" about them. They are easy to play. Point and click is the term I'm thinking of. It doesn't take any elite skills. Now fluff wise, yeah, they are elite.

And the one part that really turned me off was when they sacrificed sisters of battle to bathe in their blood....really? so youre saying untouchable, uncorruptable, psychic grey knights are less holy than SoBs? You can't even be corrupted, why would you need the extra protection from daemonic influence?

Iron_Lord
06-05-2012, 20:59
Being immune to corruption doesn't make you immune to mind-affecting powers.

Tzeentch daemons can still use that illusion power that makes you shoot your own allies, on the Grey Knights.

Skarbrand's Rage Embodied rule can still affect them.

So if they were protecting themselves from "the Rage" by a magic ritual that required holy blood- it makes sense.

They themselves aren't "holy enough" for their own blood to do it. Plus thanks to all that engineering it's not exactly human blood anymore.

Nurgling Chieftain
06-05-2012, 21:36
I'd add...to that list as well.Unfortunately the list of screwed up stuff in the Grey Knight codex is quite daunting. In the other top-tier codexes it's just a few things. With Grey Knights it's probably easier to mention the relatively balanced stuff, like the basic Troop terminator unit.

Renka
06-05-2012, 21:46
Theres nothing "elite" about them. They are easy to play. Point and click is the term I'm thinking of. It doesn't take any elite skills. Now fluff wise, yeah, they are elite.

Elite refers to the actual units themselves, not the player. :p

See the this post for example:

Unfortunately the list of screwed up stuff in the Grey Knight codex is quite daunting. In the other top-tier codexes it's just a few things. With Grey Knights it's probably easier to mention the relatively balanced stuff, like the basic Troop terminator unit.
There is now an army that have basic, Troop Terminators. I mean... Why even have a Force Organization Chart? :p

Sami
06-05-2012, 22:17
I'd add Fortitude to that list as well.

The ability to make your vehicles virtually immune to shaken and stunned, with only a very unlikely downside, for next to nothing? Really?

In comparison to the other stuff, Fortitude is nothing :P.

Still do find it amusing that the melee weapons of choice for an anti-daemon army list don't work against daemons, and in fact some of them become tougher when hit by them. Power/Force Weapons against models with invul saves and eternal warrior. Genius!

I think the main reason for the sheer volume of GK hate is that there is something in there that screws over pretty much every army going, and unlike odd-ball pieces of wargear this is the bread and butter stuff that you'll find in most GK lists. Mech guard don't seem to have too much of an issue with them as they can blow the infantry off the table from a safe range, but then mech guard doesn't have too much of an issue against anyone :P

edit: Renka, the Troop terminators are actually balanced, as they're stuck with 24" weapons like all the other infantry and don't have access to Storm Shields and the like. Put it this way: you never see Troop terminators on the field, as all 3 elites-turned-troops are superior.

Latro_
06-05-2012, 22:19
40K Stopped being a balanced game (if it ever was) before GK, they were just the death blow to it. Tournaments are not really worth much as a concept, playing for fun should really be your goto mode when thinking about 40k these days.

To the OP if you wanna collect them go for it but make an army on the models you like instead of some boring min/max internet list that yes will win you 90% of games with minimum effort but be about as rwarding as running against midgets in the 100 metres hurdles.

Sadly folks think they are good 40k players these days because they take 10 razor backs and roll dice... yawn. Keep it fun I say :D.

Freman Bloodglaive
06-05-2012, 22:21
This was mistaken. Carving your name into someones heart is a meaning. I caught on after playing some video games where they referenced it and some books. It means to make sure they never forget you. As in, if I wrecked your car, torched your house, i carved my name on your heart. you'll never forget it.

Technically yes, it has a metaphorical meaning. However the issue is that Draigo carved his predecessor's name onto Mortarian's heart. It doesn't read as a metaphor, because just having Draigo beat Mortarian like the proverbial red-headed stepchild wouldn't cause the Primarch to think fearfully of the previous Grand Master whom he'd already killed.

Let's face it, Draigo is a blasphemy.

As for the Coteaz issue. Yes, henchman spam is annoying, but even without that look at his abilities and stats and take him just as an HQ in a normal army. For between 99 and 101 points you get hammerhand, sanctuary, dark excommunication along with his spy network and I've been expecting you. He can even ride in a Rhino, which puts him head and shoulders above any of the Grey Knight special characters.

If I were playing Grey Knights he'd be my default HQ.

Grey Knights have a lot of strengths, and their biggest weakness is that you just might die of boredom either playing with them, or playing against them. "Hmm, so you have a silver marine with a storm bolter and a force weapon, okay, and you have another silver marine with a storm bolter and a force weapon... and... and... and..."

Of course the biggest problem is that because Grey Knights are now the default Marine powerhouse list, any subsequent army has to be built to beat them, which doesn't bode well for less powerful armies like... well... everything else.

vladsimpaler
06-05-2012, 22:26
This was mistaken. Carving your name into someones heart is a meaning. I caught on after playing some video games where they referenced it and some books. It means to make sure they never forget you. As in, if I wrecked your car, torched your house, i carved my name on your heart. you'll never forget it.



...and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's heart- an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten.
Seem like from this quote that he literally carved the previous Master's name on Mortarion's heart. lol wat

Kevlar
07-05-2012, 00:51
Of course the biggest problem is that because Grey Knights are now the default Marine powerhouse list, any subsequent army has to be built to beat them, which doesn't bode well for less powerful armies like... well... everything else.

I wouldn't hold your breath for that. When Mat Ward screwed up warhammer fantasy there were quite a few books that came out after demons that could not compete with them. The only thing that saved Fantasy was the eventual new edition and rules changes that killed the old meta.

6th edition 40k can't come soon enough.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2012, 03:39
1. Draigo fluff.
2. Psybolt ammo
3. Psyflemen
4. Coteaz
5. Purifiers

Add that list to breaking a lot of rules that have been reinforced by every other codex and what do you get? Ward doing to 40K, what he did with Daemons in 7th.

Gaargod
07-05-2012, 04:21
I wouldn't hold your breath for that. When Mat Ward screwed up warhammer fantasy there were quite a few books that came out after demons that could not compete with them. The only thing that saved Fantasy was the eventual new edition and rules changes that killed the old meta.


I would disagree that fantasy was saved. It was perhaps brought back from almost unplayable outside the top 6 or so (DoC, DE and VC very much top of the tree, Lizards and Skaven close behind them, and WoC bringing up the rear. Below that...), but it's still a very scrappy game. Just the core rules look they just weren't actually playtested!


Point aside. We can do with less of the 'world is falling', guys. GK are silly good, but they're not unbeatable.
Personally, with non-specific lists (i.e. basic tournament ones), I'd put my money on a maxed out DE list versus a maxed out GK list (or at least, many of the variants). The DE list will be much of a scalpel tool, than the Hammer of the Knights, but the army is built around that. Maxed out mech IG also have very solid odds of blowing GKs off the table.


You know what really annoys people about GKs?
> Very good rules in terms of price efficiency to power ratio.
> Terribly written fluff, which is just irritating to read.
> Low model count armies are very viable, making them easy for beginners.
> They really **** off Marine armies, as they do much of what the other marines do, but cheaper/better.
> They ignore a lot of the rules of the game.

All of the above are factors. I don't think anyone would seriously like to argue GK are fair. With the exception of a few units/upgrades, most of it is disgusting.
For example, people have been saying the Vindicare isn't a problem, as it's expensive and easily killed. Well, personally I'm not entirely sure how easily a T4 W2 4++/6+++ model, with stealth no less, is actually killed. Yes, it'll die to concentrated fire - but so does everything else! But whatever. The point is, it's 145pts, which is extremely likely to do its point's worth in damage before it goes. Each turbo-penetrator shot has genuinely got to be bordering on 30% chance to kill a land raider (11/12 hit x 1/2 kill with Ap1, x penetrating. I hate 4 dimensional probability, but considering the average on 4 dice is 14, and that's not counting the S3 or rending, I'm guessing it's fairly good odds). Or it can delete a manticore, or a ravager, or whatever - maybe even shoot actual models, rather than vehicles! Even if he can't find his point's worth, the tactical bonus of stranding someone without their ride might be worth his cost easily.

Really, the only things people really question are the random bling here there and everywhere (which happens in all codeces), and some of the henchmen. And even then, that's often gear dependent! Warrior acolytes can get real expensive real fast, but they start as IG squadsmen with pistols/CCW and +1LD, for 1pt less!


But let's say you ignore even all that. You know what still offends people? It's the ease with which they do everything. It's genuinely difficult to make a 'bad' army with them, without deliberately doing so.
Your expensive marines eating through your points? Ok, take some cheap-ass henchmen as troops.
Problems with enemy transports? Here, psyfleman dreadnoughts are ninja versus them.
Problems with enemy big vehicles? Well, most people have to risk melta, but you can get rending S7 A4 (remember, an assault cannon is statistically better than a lascannon at killing Av14. Psycannons are silly better) guns everywhere - and don't forget your vindicare!
Problems with hordes? Cleansing flame deals with them!
Want a close combat army? Viables. Want a shooty army? Viables. Want a mix? Viables. Want a deathstar army? Viable. Want a MSU army? Viable. Etc.

They just seem to be able to do whatever they want and still remain competitive. Sure, you can write a combat IG army, but you'll not win big tournaments with it. GK can write most types of lists, and still do well.

scapegoatboy69
07-05-2012, 06:45
Incorrect. One significant thing missing from the GK codex (and I'm sure it's missing on purpose) is the ability to buy storm shields on actual GK (some inquisition still get them).

Agreed.

You can't take any transports as dedicated for terminators.

Nah, you just have to take it as a Heavy choice if you want it. Oh noes!

You can't take drop pods.

But everybody can deepstrike anyway.

You can't take missiles, lascannons or meltas on heavy support infantry.

Every squad can pack heavy weapons.

You can't split fire from heavy support infantry.

Most armies aren't space puppies.

You can't take lightning claws.

Nemesis Falchions are pretty much the same thing.

You can't take sniper squads.

How are Sniper squads a relevant force in this game? The Vindicare is the only worthwhile Sniper in 40k.

You can't take landspeeders or bike squads.

Agreed, though same question as above with regards to bikes.

You don't get Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds or Thunderfire Cannons.

Agreed.

So, as you can see it's not a simple case of "Take any special rule from any other army and grey knights have it. And its cheaper. And better."

It's more a case of wider things than specifics. Grey Knights are pretty firmly "Marines, but better." It doesn't help that the army seems to attract people who aren't fun to play against.

I'm not saying they aren't powerful and cool, but there are a ton of things you don't get as GK. In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.

The main problem I've got with GK is... playing against them doesn't feel like a story or a chess match. I'm not making trades, planning, or taking risks when I play against GK-- I'm just throwing dice and praying that there's enough dakka in my list. It boils down to "roll dice, see results" rather than "play a strategy game and make decisions."

Dazza612
07-05-2012, 06:58
Wow a lot of grey knights hatred, funny how they're not the top codex and nobody ever seems to complain about space wolves or imperial guard which are better! I don't have many problems with the codex except the grenades on terminators and the +2 initiative halberds, at the end of the day they die just like any other marine. It's a very good and powerful codex but there is nothing in the book which is broken!

xxRavenxx
07-05-2012, 08:32
Wow a lot of grey knights hatred, funny how they're not the top codex and nobody ever seems to complain about space wolves or imperial guard which are better! I don't have many problems with the codex except the grenades on terminators and the +2 initiative halberds, at the end of the day they die just like any other marine. It's a very good and powerful codex but there is nothing in the book which is broken!

The hatred is because 90% of people disagree with you entirely.

They are the top codex. Look at every tournament going, from the casual to the comped. They're the most prevelant army, making up 25% of whats brought, and occupying most of the top spots in the results.

As for power units: Purifiers are game breaking. They make horde armies auto-lose with 15 casualties at the start of combat, leading to 15 more at resolution via fearless. One unit is managable because you can take them down, with some focus. Six is just impossible to deal with.

Henchman spam is game breaking. Dirt cheap guys who abuse squad composition to bring rediculous firepower, or a huge weight of high I attacks mixed with some token stormshields to take return hits.

The power level ripples down to casual games too. A generic GK list is much too strong for a generic list from another army. And woe betide thee if you're a daemon's player. You're lucky to even make it to combat. In my last game vs. GK, I didn't even make it to my turn 4. He just rolled his psychic powers, and I removed whole units at a time. It wasn't even a *game* just an exercise in packing models away.

wilsongrahams
07-05-2012, 10:37
I used to have a Grey Knights squad in 2nd edition, and bought a 1750pt force of the new models when they came out. This is mostly because I love the models. I have Draigo but he's not in my list. However, I don't intend using this army all that much because I believe the game would be boring or depressing for my opponent. In my group we usually play for fun. If I did turn up with this list I'd probably take just 1500pts to a 1750 game or balance it myself in other ways. I want a game that is fun for both players, and winning in an exercise of rolling dice is not fun, and provides little tactical challenge.

The glaring point I noted was the fact that units were cheap. A unit of terminators, all with power weapons, thunder hammers for free (better than power fists and you still have your gun), or swords for a better save. Then you get the psycannon - cheaper than an assault cannon yet stronger? This should have been kept as the heavy bolter it used to be, or only Heavy 2. Comparing these two units even without any psychic powers shows the grey knights to be undercosted, or the uprgrades undercosted, depending upon how you look at it.

If you take them as per their fluff - they are supposed to be powerful but they should be more expensive to suit. I play for fun, and collect models I like. Sometimes I have to make compromises to balance the two - in this case it's self moderation to have a fun game. I don't attend tournaments and winning isn't my goal.

-DE-
07-05-2012, 11:59
The main issue with the Grey Knights is not only the fact that they have an answer to pretty much every threat, not only are they great in every single phase of the game, they also possess the greatest number of rules that break the very core of 40K and never should've made it in, GK codex or otherwise.

Here's a list of gripes I have with the codex:

- power weapons on everything. Marines, Necrons, MC's, there are a lot of units that pay through their nose for good saves. GK's ignore them and make that expense a waste.

- 24" assault weapons on everything. In practice, it is 30" if you're advancing, or 24" if you're falling back. No other army comes with such a potent ranged weapon as standard. Marines cannot assault after firing, and have half the range, same with Tau and so many other Troop units with rapid fire guns. GK's can stay at a good range of 24" and rain shots at those units, laughing at the return fire and not having to worry about assaults (unlike rapid firing units who are always in range for assault). Those other units' special weapons are also short-ranged, whereas GK's have Psycannons, aka uber-Assault Cannons that can be taken by infantry and are Assault, unlike every other heavy weapon in the game (excepting Heavy Flamers), so they don't need to stay still to make use of them and combine so well with Stormbolters. They can also upgrade their Stormbolters to S5, as if they were not devastating enough. The whole point of 12" rapid fire is that if your enemy's in range, you're in range of his assault, a kind of checks and balances situation that's the foundation of this system. Not with GK's.

- I+2 halberds. Up until GK's, the only marine squad that could purchase an Initiative boost were CSM troops, termies, and Noise Marines. The difference is, theirs was only +1, cost more, could be brought down, and those units had very limited CC capability. Way too many xenos CC units depend on I 5 or 6 to make an impact, now a GK Troops choice can deny them that for pennies AND be way more devastating against fellow marines. There should've never been the option of upgrading a marine UNIT to I 6, pretty much the highest I in the game, at such a low cost (in fact, any cost!).

- Force Weapons on everyone. Makes MC-based armies dead on arrival, screwing Tyranids even more. Rock-paper-scissors is never a sign of good design.

- Warp Quake Makes DS-based armies dead on arrival (sensing a pattern here?). Chaos Daemons weep. RPS again.

- Purifying Flame. Makes horde armies dead on arrival (here it is!). Orks and Tyranids cry tears of blood. RPS for the third time. For fun, imagine a full conscript squad against a single Purifier... no other single model can potentially dish out so much damage in a single turn (okay, except maybe the perpetuum mobile BA dread). You can't have a model kill stuff outside turn sequence!

- Servo-skulls shutting down enemy Scout and Infiltrators. For 5 points each? And you can take up to 3 per character? There's nothing like denying your enemy abilities they pay lots of points for through a 5-point piece of wargear.

- 3-man henchmen squads able to take Chimeras and Razorbacks. In practice, it's a 12-point tax to make your AFV's purchasable on their own AND scoring. Add Psybolt Ammo and Fortitude and it gets silly real fast. Other armies at least pay points for Chimera or Razor spam...

- Vindicare being the best tank hunter in the game. Last time I saw, real-life snipers didn't blow up MBT's...

- Coteaz, Draigo, and Crowe turning Elite squads Troops. Remember when Crimson Fists Chapter Master made Sternguard scoring without making them Troops ('cause, you know, that would've broken the game...)? GK's are better... Draigo and Crowe should've made Paladins and Purifiers scoring, but kept them as Elites, whereas Coteaz should've added an extra henchman slot on top of the standard one for taking an Inquisitor. Elite squads are elite, because they're elite and should remain elite! It's a way to balance out their abilities, you can't have them become Troops which has a twofold repercussion - you don't have to purchase inherently weaker Troops to fill out the mandatory Troops slots, saving you points AND you can take twice as many Elite squads of which all are scoring. As a designer, you don't do that ever!

- Grenades for free as standard on Termies. Remember when the Termies' sole weakpoint was their inability to assault into cover, making a Crusader or Redeemer pretty much mandatory? Not for GK's... Termies in themselves are clearly Tactical Terminators+. Let's see what freebies they get for the exact same cost as an SM TacSquad - a psychic power, aegis, force weapons, fists upgraded to thunder hammers OR a downgrade from fists to swords, but an extra pip of INV or +2 INI, GRENADES, better assault cannon, better heavy flamer, no pointless power weapon sergeant, TROOPS. And no one even takes these guys, the other units are just so much better! I mean, for mere 15 points you can upgrade your Super Termie to a SuperSuperTermie (Paladin).

- Rad and Psychotroke Grenades. Not only are they permanent buffs to the squad's damage output in CC, they also a) have the potential to make them auto-win nearly any combat, b) affect Instant Death, unlike, you know, every other ability in the game, which is one of the no-no's in the game (or was, I suppose). I guess Ward thought GK's were too weak in assault and needed a buff...

- Psybolt Ammo. No, just... no. This shouldn't have been in the game period. Standard GK squads running around with mini-heavy bolters (what other marine army can do this?), STR6, cheaps as chips, unshakable scoring Razorbacks, PSYFLEMEN (upgrade 2 TL autocannons to 4 TL missile launchers for 5 points, oh, and ID T4... BALANCED!)... There should've been no Assault Cannons in the army - all 'Backs should've had the option to take a proper Psycannon instead of an Assault Cannon, and bolters of any variety and autocannons shouldn't have had upgradable STR. No other army can do this and for a reason!

- Fortitude. All other armies pay 15 points to get an upgrade that reduces all Stunned to Shaken to make the vehicle able to move all the time unless Immobilized. GK's pay 5 points to ignore the vast majority of Stunned and Shaken and can always move and, even more importantly, shoot. You can't silence a psyfleman for a turn by shaking him (like, you know, many armies bank on to have a chance at winning). Why? It breaks another core feature of the game!

- diversified Paladin squads. Remember when GW nerfed Tyranid Warrior and Carnifex squads and Daemon Bloodcrusher and Fiends and made them unable to diversify their wargear, so as to avoid another Nob Bikers incident? Guess what, this philosophy only applies to xenos, but not to marines, vide TWC and... Paladins.

- deep-striking Soladins. I'm not even going to bother elaborating on this, single-man squads are an inherently idiotic notion.

- Death Cult Assassins. Like Wyches, but better. Pack them into a Land Raider along with a Techmarine with 'nades and win every combat. Oh, and if the LR is immobilized, you have a shot at repairing it.

- Purifiers getting a discount on every single weapon upgrade. What is the reason for this? They cost 4 points more than a regular GK, and those 4 points cover the game-breaking Purifying Flame. Furthermore, you can take them as troops, so... why? They even get extra (and cheaper) heavy weapons! Even Interceptors don't get a discount, and they're more expensive!

- Grand Strategy allowing you to make pretty much any unit scoring. Self-explanatory. As if GK's had trouble with Troops. What other army can decide which of their non-scoring units become scoring and do that just before every game?

- Hammerhand stacking with Hammers for STR 10. This breaks the basic rule of 40K, multiplication before addition. But GK's are the best humanity has to offer, so they break the laws of physics! Seriously, feth you, Matt Ward.

90% of the above should've been obvious to anyone familiar with the rules of the game, this isn't something you let slip through due to inadequate beta-testing! Which can only mean it was all premeditated. Infer from this what you will. In my opinion, and ignoring its power level, the GK codex is a complete trainwreck on the design level. It ignores or outright breaks basic rules of 40K and denies the enemy their abilities (can't counterattack against Psychotrokes, can't Scout or Infiltrate, can't deploy hordes/MC's/high-armor close combat specialists, and so forth). Remember Lash? GK's are like that, but more insidious. At the end of the day, Ward would probably have this to say to the question of why are the GK's so powerful: "It would be a shame if they weren't!"

Satan
07-05-2012, 12:22
Gonna go ahead and make a guess that the GK codex is geard towards 6th and that this is to blame for much of the OP sutff?

But there's no excuse for the appaling background.

Asher
07-05-2012, 12:47
Gonna go ahead and make a guess that the GK codex is geard towards 6th and that this is to blame for much of the OP sutff?

But there's no excuse for the appaling background.

Well, the 'leaked' rules set does indeed debuff GKs in some ways (or at least strenghtens other armies more than it does GK), if I remember correctly. It's still to be seen how many of those rules will be part of the real 6th edition.

El_Machinae
07-05-2012, 13:04
The main problem I've got with GK is... playing against them doesn't feel like a story or a chess match. I'm not making trades, planning, or taking risks when I play against GK-- I'm just throwing dice and praying that there's enough dakka in my list. It boils down to "roll dice, see results" rather than "play a strategy game and make decisions."

Is that partially due to the low model count? I kinda prefer fewer models, so I can keep tabs on them more easily. I don't easily think in terms of 'units'.

Latro_
07-05-2012, 14:13
Gonna go ahead and make a guess that the GK codex is geard towards 6th and that this is to blame for much of the OP sutff?

But there's no excuse for the appaling background.

I think the issue is that they are too good in such a way that to nerf them would be to cripple another army in 40k.

Draconis
07-05-2012, 14:32
Well, the 'leaked' rules set does indeed debuff GKs in some ways (or at least strenghtens other armies more than it does GK), if I remember correctly. It's still to be seen how many of those rules will be part of the real 6th edition.

The leaked rules were proven to be false. Someone made them for their own personal games.

Vaktathi
07-05-2012, 14:37
Wow a lot of grey knights hatred, funny how they're not the top codex and nobody ever seems to complain about space wolves or imperial guard which are better! I don't have many problems with the codex except the grenades on terminators and the +2 initiative halberds, at the end of the day they die just like any other marine. It's a very good and powerful codex but there is nothing in the book which is broken!It won Adepticon (generally seen as the biggest competitive 40k event of the year) and was noticeably the most popular army present, toppling even the SW's that overran the event with count-as bandwagon hoppers last year. Notice that IG were much less present both in the upper tiers of winning armies and in numbers present as well. ;)

Asher
07-05-2012, 14:56
The leaked rules were proven to be false. Someone made them for their own personal games.

Source? I was out of the loop for a while, but I have not seen it being proven to be false yet ... unless you mean by that 4chan post.

Buddha777
07-05-2012, 16:35
Other than their ridiculous nades' I don't find anything in GK codex intrinsically, on its own, overpowered. HOWEVER, my beef with them, and why I hate their dex, is that there are no restrictions on great choices and allows for ridiculously undercosted/overpowered synergy.

For example, one can take a cortez henchmen spam army with stormravens and psybolt rifleman dreads with no restrictions what so ever. I mean if the dread/stormravens were restricted to armies led by say a grandmaster, or were 0-1, or any number of restriction options they would be externally balanced. Instead you end up with a codex, that because of it's lack of restrictions, offer players no drawback from just taking the most powerful units and spamming them. That's my main beef and why they are so powerful in my opinion.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2012, 16:44
I think the issue is that they are too good in such a way that to nerf them would be to cripple another army in 40k.

I wonder what would happen if the % rule rumoured to be in 6th comes true? If you HAD to spend 25 (or more?) on Troops, would that ding GK more then others?

wyvirn
07-05-2012, 16:52
Nope, most of the worst builds GK have are with Troop choice abuse. Draigowing, Purifier Spam, and Henchmen spam all have the units involved as troops from a SC. Even ignoring that, you still have terminators with NFW to fall back on.

Bunnahabhain
07-05-2012, 16:52
I wonder what would happen if the % rule rumoured to be in 6th comes true? If you HAD to spend 25 (or more?) on Troops, would that ding GK more then others?

Depends on implementation. It wouldn't touch some builds at all- i.e SC enabled paladin or purifier spam. If it doesn't include dedicated transports in the buying units portion, it'd hit the 'minimum henchen to make 6 psybacks scoring' builds. It would certainly hit many other armies far harder.

Konovalev
07-05-2012, 16:54
Wow a lot of grey knights hatred, funny how they're not the top codex and nobody ever seems to complain about space wolves or imperial guard which are better! I don't have many problems with the codex except the grenades on terminators and the +2 initiative halberds, at the end of the day they die just like any other marine. It's a very good and powerful codex but there is nothing in the book which is broken!

Let them have their pity party. It's a weakly occurance afterall.

GrogDaTyrant
07-05-2012, 17:01
My beef, is that they do not make for an enjoyable game to play against. Win or Lose. Getting wiped off the board by Ordnance-Spam IG has proven to be a far more enjoyable game to me, then playing against any Gray Knight army. No matter how good of a friend my opponent was.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 17:22
I think if people on here were truly honest with their W/L ratio in reference to GK, you'd see that the GK aren't as OP as some people indicate.

I agree that there should have been two codices Codex: Inquisition and Codex: Grey Knights.

As far as everything else goes, until you can show them to have a significantly higher W/L ratio in tournaments than any other army, then really this is just a matter of "looks good on paper, but doesn't actually perform as well in the field".

Vaktathi
07-05-2012, 17:25
People act like its hard to beat GK they are not hard to beat ffs i beat them with a foot slogging DE list Unsubstantiated vague anecdotal claims are the coolest of stories. :p

Nobody is saying they are unbeatable, but when they pay irrelevant costs for massive upgrades (making their tanks functionally immune to shaken/stunned results for 5pts for example, 5pts to upgrade 2 twin linked autocannons to S7 on a nigh unshakeable/unstunnable mobile platform, etc) it makes them unreasonable.

sycopat
07-05-2012, 18:15
People act like its hard to beat GK they are not hard to beat ffs i beat them with a foot slogging DE list


And I've beaten them with tyranids! That does not stop purifier spam being hideously unfair vs horde armies, nor does it make psybacks and psyflemen less potent. The opponent your playing is as important as the list they're using(And often more).


I think if people on here were truly honest with their W/L ratio in reference to GK, you'd see that the GK aren't as OP as some people indicate.

Might be difficult to honestly gauge considering that the vast number of GK players about nowadays means there is by necessity a lot of GK on GK action, which will naturally inflate their Losses. Also, I don't think anyone relies on online W/L ratio. Most people look at tournament compositions and placings in their countries meta.

Latro_
07-05-2012, 18:27
Its the old faithful players i feel sorry for. All those daemon hunters players who held on when their codex was literally laughed at, are now stuck with something that gets em shunned.. bet a few of em wish the book got a bit more of a balanced update like DE. I'm really a bit concerned my beloved chaos space marines are gonna get the same treatment after i'v never really stopped playing with them all throughout 5th ed.

shadekiller
07-05-2012, 18:58
Well, to the OP

My personnal opinion on whats the beef is thats maximising your good units and minimising your weakness and your bad units is fairly easy with GK. I do play tyranids, space marines, tau and GK so it's not like I never play anything else :p
With gk you have pretty good unit build for their cost read: purifiers and their assorted gear, standart dreadnough with 2 twin linked autocannon to maximise the bonus you get from psybolt ammunition, the inquisitorial henchman warband is a pretty big bang for your buck unit, razordbacks in general are fairl cheap for what you get when you factor in psybolt ammo and fortification. Those are very good units for the points you pay for them really. So whats the beef, GK is not the only army to get fairly good unit for their points, its obvious that because individualy they really are aces all around that people freak out so easly when they see any GK army on the opposite side of the table :D Really what makes them fearsome overall it's that they can really bring competitive unit in every slots.

If you see a SM army with lots of thunderhammer terminators, wich are quite good for 40pts really, you are like: okay plenty of terms hmm.. well anyway his troops will not be to much of a hassle and he has no fast assault unit exept that land raider. When you see and ig army you are like : ouch thats a ton of melta but ho well he will fold in mele and his tanks do cost quite a lot. If you see a SW army you are like: crap thats a lot of missiles but ho well he has few thigs to bring down that big AV 14 tank of mine and I got some cool assault unit so i will probably out-melee some of his squad etc.. The main problem when you are up against a GK army IMHO its that they always seem to have an edge over you (be it true or not). You are like: Crap my assault unit dont seem killy enough to counter those purifiers and hell he has a lot of transport. hmm i cant get up to close he has to much psycannon and.. haaa crap some dreads how by the hell am i gonna make it with my transports...?

It's not really hard to make a balanced list, if you include a unit of purifiers it's far from world shattering and an autocannon dread is quite cool but its not like you will autoboom his army with it. But when you take 6 units of purifiers in razordbacks, 3 autocannon dreadnough and then you slap a cool HQ with a pretty strong retinue odds are you will definately have an edge. Its the same principes with all the power army like dual lash, hey lash is god let's take as much as we can! Thunderhammer termi wall (okay its not superduper comp but you get what I mean) hey those term are good and cheap lets take as much as we can etc etc...

overall just build a cool list with some terminators (for the love of god no transport you are waisting those shot!), a unit of purifiers, maybe a strike squad if your short on troop, get in a dread and maybe a cool assasin, you get what I mean. IMHO the beef is that they can squeeze in more good for their points units than everyone else and in every slot.

here is my 2500 list to illustrate what i'm trying to say

mordrak with 4 knights

librarian

2x 10 man terminators

10 purifiers in a normal land raider

dreaknight with sword, flamer and teleporter

vindicaire

venerable dread with TL lascannon

cheers man(<--not a unit)

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2012, 19:17
Note: I didnt say GK where unbeatable, far from it. I think most builds are actually quite manageable. That said there ARE issues with the book, and you have to be willfully ignorant to not see that.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 19:26
Note: I didnt say GK where unbeatable, far from it. I think most builds are actually quite manageable. That said there ARE issues with the book, and you have to be willfully ignorant to not see that.

There are issues with every book.

I agree that there are things that should never have been added to the book. Like the inquisition section.

However thinking that gk are wildly more powerful than other tier one armies is just foolish in my opinion.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2012, 19:30
There are issues with every book.

I agree that there are things that should never have been added to the book. Like the inquisition section.

However thinking that gk are wildly more powerful than other tier one armies is just foolish in my opinion.

I dont know if power level is really the root of it all. SW are more powerful then the rest (GK>SW>* thought I think DE are in that top 3 personally) the issue is that GK break rules with the game to do so, such as hammer hand breaking 2 I believe. Stacking the same power, and doing so before multiplied by a hammer, or vehicles being almost un-stun/shakeable Its that kind of stuff, plus the power level, plus the **** fluff, that all adds up to people holding their nose a bit.

How much of that is negated by 6th, we will see.

Grimtuff
07-05-2012, 19:31
However thinking that gk are wildly more powerful than other tier one armies is just foolish in my opinion.

Okay then, off you go then fella. People have laid out why they "foolishly" think GK are the pinnacle of overpoweredness/undercostedness, even compared to other tier 1 armies. Tell us then, why we are "foolish" to think so.

I'll wait.

Megad00mer
07-05-2012, 19:39
Grey Knights are the ultimate expression of Mat Ward's Space Marine fanboyism and that's evident because it reads like a fan codex written by a 15 yr old with no real grasp of what a meta is, only caring about making their army "super awesome mega x 9000!, Yeahhhhhh!!!!!"

Some Armies have been considered overpowered in the past.
Some Armies have taken almost no tactical skill to play in the past.
The Grey Knights are both. That's not a good thing.

They are the most overpowered Codex GW has ever released. Coupled with the fact that they are the definition of a point and click force and their domination of the Tourney scene, well.. it's not hard to see why people have a "beef" with them.

One major issue with GKs is you can never adequately represent them and have it be balanced. The Grey Knights are a force that is supposed to be incredibly powerful. Far surpassing even normal marines. Now one could argue that Ward was successful in that regard and the Knights feel very powerful, but there's a problem. Namely there are other armies in this game. You can't have one army so above the others in terms of power and expect it to work out well for everyone. On the other hand, if Ward was somehow able to make them balanced and "fair" they wouldn't really be Grey Knights then, would they? They would just be weird looking normal marines and no one wants that either.

Grey Knights should be an Apocalypse Data Sheet, not a Codex, but that my opinion.

Getz
07-05-2012, 19:47
There are issues with every book.

I agree that there are things that should never have been added to the book. Like the inquisition section.

However thinking that gk are wildly more powerful than other tier one armies is just foolish in my opinion.

So you conceed that they are more powerful than the other "Tier 1" armies? Okay, so SW and IG players can expect to get a decent shot of winning out of a game with GKs. Now what about everyone that doesn't play SW or IG?

Besides, the very fact that we have "tiers" of armies underscores the problem. Point of fact, I play IG and I'm pretty confident that I can blast most flavours of GK off the table so long as my rolling doesn't stink, but IG are pretty much a one trick army and if you play to your strengths and exploit their weaknesses you can beat them. GKs can play every game well - they're a great shooting army, a terrifying close combat army, they're decently mobile and they play MSU better than anyone.

An illustrative anecdote;
Last autumn at our club tournament we had two (out of sixteen) players rock up with Grey Knights - one playing Purifier Spam and the other Draigowing. Both guys are known quantities at out club and neither of them are objectively that good a player (although nor would I claim they were poor players). They finished first and third, and if they hadn't met each other in the semi-finals I'm pretty sure they would have come first and second. I don't believe that either player lost a game all tournament and hardly anyone even managed to pull a draw, although both of them were somewhat fortunate in never having to face off against the army lists best set up to beat them (neither had to face the DE blaster spam list or the semi-mech IG with multiple Demolisher cannons, for example) - and let me re-iterate the main point, using other armies these guys are nothing to write home about, yet with the GK codex they trashed everything in their path.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 19:52
I definitely think their fluff is retarded for all the reasons people have pointed out and your absolutely correct in your assessment of codex power versus codex fluff.

I think it would have been better to have gk way more in line with vanilla with just a few warhead/power adjustments and then scale costs accordingly. It would certainly be nice to be able to take storm shields on termies and some vindicators.

I am also hoping that sixth balances the game as a whole.

As far as showing why gk are not as overpowered as some of the "sky is falling" comments have mentioned... I've already indicated several times. Just go back and read.

lordbeefy
07-05-2012, 19:55
I have lookd at the GK codex for some time and am thinking of building a list myself.

I am lookin g at 1500 ish points for a fairly fluffy army which is fun to build, low model count and fairly competitive.

Basically its
Draigo,

Librarian

2 x 5 man paladin troop squads, halberds and psycannons

2 x menesis dreadknights, incinerators and psycannon firesupport

1 x psyfleman

As I say, its intended as a fluffy, fun and competitive list, without overdoing the spam of the really nasty units. I think like any other list, its all about the intent of the wielder, ie, if you are a fair gamer then it should be ok, if you take the michael then not so much so. I have played against SW or BA lists that are capab;le ot taking down any GK list or similar.

Any army can be tailored to to be overpowered, its up to the gamers.

-DE-
07-05-2012, 19:55
I am also hoping that sixth balances the game as a whole.

Just remember that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

lordbeefy
07-05-2012, 19:56
I have lookd at the GK codex for some time and am thinking of building a list myself.

I am lookin g at 1500 ish points for a fairly fluffy army which is fun to build, low model count and fairly competitive.

Basically its
Draigo,

Librarian

2 x 5 man paladin troop squads, halberds and psycannons

2 x menesis dreadknights, incinerators and psycannon firesupport

1 x psyfleman

As I say, its intended as a fluffy, fun and competitive list, without overdoing the spam of the really nasty units. I think like any other list, its all about the intent of the wielder, ie, if you are a fair gamer then it should be ok, if you take the michael then not so much so. I have played against SW or BA lists that are capab;le ot taking down any GK list or similar.

Any army can be tailored to to be overpowered, its up to the gamers.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 20:07
"Some guy I don't respect won a local tournament" is not a good reason to nerf an army. A Tau player won a tournament recently. Do you think Tau should be nerfed as well?

Maybe gk just clicked for those guys. Maybe their opponents were just terrible or having bad dice days. Frankly I've seen enough "gk vs..." games to know that they are not a point and click army. The only time any army is point and click is when the opponent player is terribad.

El_Machinae
07-05-2012, 20:17
And I've beaten them with tyranids!

Fluff-wise, if GKs are fighting 'nids, then they've already lost. The GKs are too streamlined and too rare to be wasting battling normal xenos. A GK falling to a Dark Eldar or to an Ork or 'nid is a greater victory to Chaos than killing them with demons!

Getz
07-05-2012, 20:38
"Some guy I don't respect won a local tournament" is not a good reason to nerf an army. A Tau player won a tournament recently. Do you think Tau should be nerfed as well?

Maybe gk just clicked for those guys. Maybe their opponents were just terrible or having bad dice days. Frankly I've seen enough "gk vs..." games to know that they are not a point and click army. The only time any army is point and click is when the opponent player is terribad.

I assume that was directed at me?

You'll notice that I made no mention of whether I like or respect either of the players in question - for the record one of them is a lovely guy and a pleasure to play against, the other is anything but and as the TO I had the unfortunate duty of having to deal with numerous complaints about him cheating, all made after the game when there was nothing I could do about it - however I certainly don't begrudge the guy who wasn't accused of cheating of his success.

However in my experience players don't suddenly go from so-so to unstoppable juggernauts overnight, except when they switch to the current GK codex.

Additionally, I actually have a modest GK army of my own (a holdover from the old Demonhunters codex to be honest) which I wheel out occasionally so I am all too aware of how the army works in practice. My force is more exactly an Inquistorial strike force list fields large squads of warrior henchmen plus a couple PAGK squads representing my Deathwatch Killteam models. Unoptimised as it is, it still does remarkably well in competitive play, in part because PAGKs are madly cheap for their capabilities and in other part because Vindicare assassins are utter filth (I've had the model for years, so sue me...)

Vaktathi
07-05-2012, 21:01
One major issue with GKs is you can never adequately represent them and have it be balanced. The Grey Knights are a force that is supposed to be incredibly powerful. Far surpassing even normal marines. Now one could argue that Ward was successful in that regard and the Knights feel very powerful, but there's a problem. Namely there are other armies in this game. You can't have one army so above the others in terms of power and expect it to work out well for everyone. On the other hand, if Ward was somehow able to make them balanced and "fair" they wouldn't really be Grey Knights then, would they? They would just be weird looking normal marines and no one wants that either.
Well, they can be super powerful and still balanced, if they actually had limited numbers and weren't replete with long range anti-tank guns, and didn't have a plethora of weapons far more geared towards being effective against tanks and heavy infantry as opposed to being highly effective against daemons.

Part of this problem (though by no means the whole of it) has been the change in the nature of Force Weapons. They used to be specialized anti-daemon weapons that were very scary for Daemons be near, and now are no better than basic CC weapons against them.

Dazza612
07-05-2012, 21:06
Sure they are a very good codex but there are a hell of a lot of blood angels armies as well being taken to tournaments do you think they are broken as well. Personally I'd rather face a grey knight army than 19 str 8 missiles a turn shooting at 5 different targets with one of those units having the tank hunter rule. A pyscher which stops any psychic power on a 4 +, or a psychic abiliry which can instant kill lots of things within a 24 inch range except vehicles. Or how about fighting 6 vendettas, cheap psychers and masses of melta and plasma guns all in chimeras!! By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

Gunless Ganger
07-05-2012, 21:11
By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

I believe the Cleansing flame was being used as an example of how they hose horde armies while still having force weapons to use vs. Power armored enemies.

The Red Pilgrim
07-05-2012, 21:18
"Some guy I don't respect won a local tournament" is not a good reason to nerf an army. A Tau player won a tournament recently. Do you think Tau should be nerfed as well?

Maybe gk just clicked for those guys. Maybe their opponents were just terrible or having bad dice days. Frankly I've seen enough "gk vs..." games to know that they are not a point and click army. The only time any army is point and click is when the opponent player is terribad.

And who is going to "nerf" them, exactly? You seem determined to defend their blatant edge, out of fear of losing it. Which is silly, because lets be real, the codex is already out, and isn't going to be FAQ'd to be balanced. And with how long it takes to redo any given codex, they'll be absurd for years to come.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can stop being a Grey Knight apologist now. Defending their power-level with vague anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold up. Nobody is going to steal your thunder for some time. :)

Craftworld
07-05-2012, 21:23
And who is going to "nerf" them, exactly? You seem determined to defend their blatant edge, out of fear of losing it. Which is silly, because lets be real, the codex is already out, and isn't going to be FAQ'd to be balanced. And with how long it takes to redo any given codex, they'll be absurd for years to come.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, you can stop being a Grey Knight apologist now. Defending their power-level with vague anecdotal evidence that doesn't hold up. Nobody is going to steal your thunder for some time. :)

I think part of it is player ego. Who wants to admit that their army plays itself?

Bunnahabhain
07-05-2012, 21:28
Sure they are a very good codex but there are a hell of a lot of blood angels armies as well being taken to tournaments do you think they are broken as well. Personally I'd rather face a grey knight army than 19 str 8 missiles a turn shooting at 5 different targets with one of those units having the tank hunter rule. A pyscher which stops any psychic power on a 4 +, or a psychic abiliry which can instant kill lots of things within a 24 inch range except vehicles. Or how about fighting 6 vendettas, cheap psychers and masses of melta and plasma guns all in chimeras!! By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

I'll assume, with the benefit of doubt, you're merely being silly, and not actively trolling.

What is broken about purifers? Sure, a wound on a 4+, with save allowed, isn't scary for 3+ or 2+ save units. For a unit of 30 Gaunts or Ork boys, losing ~12 before they even start to fight is scary. Let alone Genestealers, banshees, DE stuff, etc, that have poor saves but are lethal to marines in combat? Losing almost half the unit before they can strike isn't fun.

Grey Knights can spam chimeras with cheap, scoring, shooty content better than Guard. They can spam cheap psykers better than Guard. They can out do almost any force at almost any trick.

Latro_
07-05-2012, 21:29
Having not played WH regularly in my many years of gaming, what was the resolution to the other Mat Ward book of 'ffs' handled? Or is GK on a different level compared to how good daemons were in WH.

I seem to remember a lot of events banned them or somin?

Getz
07-05-2012, 21:33
By the way what is so broken about purifiers. Yes they have force weapons but they're 24 point models and they die just as easily as a marine! And their cleansimg flame ability causes a wound on a 4+ you still get armour saves after that, you think many marines are going to die from this?

Not many marines, no - but try piling a mob of 30 Orks into them. On average about twelve will die from cleansing flame alone. If the Orks do manage to stay at above ten models after combat, they'll then almost certainly loose another twelve (plus a number roughly equal to their actual combat losses) to fearlessness, almost certainly losing the entire squad - and if you manage to take them below ten models they either have to roll snake eyes on a ld test or almost inevitably get cut down (I2 v I6 sucks when you're trying not to get cut down after an assault). The same applies for Gaunts, or IG blob squads or someone that stupid enough to try piling in more than one squad of just about anything.

Purifiers basically wave a big, fat middle finger at any army that's based of hordes of lightly armoured infantry, and they aren't exactly terrible against MEQs when they show up in numbers either - If I piled a huge squad of 20 Khorne Beserkers into a Purifier squad Cleansing flame would probably kill three or four of them before Initiative even entered the equation - that's about as many as the Purifiers would kill with their halberds (before I got to strike back, natch). Admittedly, I'd expect the 'Zerkers to do some serious damage back, but if they loose the combat (which isn't unlikely, they don't have power weapons after all) they'll probably loose a couple more guys to fearlessness again.

Scribe of Khorne
07-05-2012, 21:49
Having not played WH regularly in my many years of gaming, what was the resolution to the other Mat Ward book of 'ffs' handled? Or is GK on a different level compared to how good daemons were in WH.

I seem to remember a lot of events banned them or somin?

They rewrote how some of the core rules behaved I believe (fear/terror?) really nerfing Daemons and VC I think.

Kevlar
07-05-2012, 21:56
The steadfast rule hurt demons too, since they aren't exactly cheap. Unlike Grey Knights who have some incredibly cheap power builds.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 22:18
The fact of the matter is that anyone who's played against GK more than once or twice has realized that they are not as powerful as any of the whining in this thread indicates.

If you want to whine about an army, do it elsewhere.

Any army can be beaten. Any army can be uber powerful.

There has been more than enough information presented in this thread to show that GK are not the "all powerful" army that the whining would indicate.

Frankly, if you run a horde of unarmored troops into a unit of purifiers and expect to win, they you are a player who needs more experience and better strategies.

If you run a one trick pony army that only takes hordes of unarmored infantry and expect to beat down a purifier list then you probably need to rethink your list.

The Meta changes all the time, people come up with new lists and people complain that their old lists don't own face as much as they used to.

Get over it. GK are not the end all be all of 40k. Are they good? Yes. Are they a Tier 1 army? Yes. Did they just get updated within the past 18 months? Yes.

It's not like this doesn't happen every time a new codex comes out. BA go their new codex and people went insane with all the whining and complaining about how powerful they are. Same thing happened with the new Necron codex. The same thing will happen when the CSM codex comes out.

If you think that your whining is going to change anything, then by all means keep it up.

For those that think my stance on the matter is in the minority, then you clearly haven't talked with very many people because more than 90% of the people I talk with about GK understand quite well that they are as powerful as you should expect a recently updated army to be. Power creep is a fact, not a philosophy.

Grimtuff
07-05-2012, 22:21
Any army can be uber powerful.


Okay then, do it. Make an "A game" GK army and an "A game" Tau army (arguably the worst codex in 40k ATM) and let me know who comes out on top.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 22:30
Too late Grim. It's already been done by me and several of my friends who are Tau players.

We had a guy in our store in Washington state who whined right about as hard as what is happening here. We challenged him to make the most "broken" GK army he could think of and he was tabled multiple times by Tau.

This is the same guy who won multiple games in a row against GK with his plague marines and then continued to whine about how horribly OP GK are.

Instead of asking me (someone you probably wouldn't trust) to do it, why don't you do it yourself and see what happens. In fact, why don't you write the GK list as broken as you can think of to make it, and then get someone else (who knows Tau) to write the Tau list and then play the game. Random for mission and deployment out of the core rule book and play the game.

Watch as your GK get slaughtered and maimed at the hands of plasma/rail spam despite the fact that all of your vehicles and troops were in cover.

Boggle as you realize that all the whining you were doing was pointless nonsense.

The Red Pilgrim
07-05-2012, 22:31
The fact of the matter is that anyone who's played against GK more than once or twice has realized that they are not as powerful as any of the whining in this thread indicates.

So no enlightening evidence then. Shame. I confess myself disappointed.


If you want to whine about an army, do it elsewhere.

Wait, so complaints regarding Grey Knights - have no place - in a thread discussing Grey Knights? I'm struggling to see your posts as anything but trolling with this kind of "logic". I mean really man, make an effort of some kind.

So on that note, while I was making a genuine effort to discuss this with you, I'm going to have to cut you off here - and ignore your further posts.

Bunnahabhain
07-05-2012, 22:31
Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

I don't think anyone in this thread has said they're totally unbeatable, all powerful or such like. What they have said is that they're too powerful, boring, and don't feel right. It's not just another new codex and it's overpowered whining- there was very little of that around the DE and necron books, quite a bit around Mr Wards previous try at marines +1, the Blood Angels, quite a bit around Space wolves, and a moderate amount around Guard and Codex Marines. As for the White dwarf codexs.... Oh and tyranids as well. They're definitely overpowered....
There are probably more complaints, justified or not, real or not about the Grey Knight book than all the rest of the 5th ed books put together.

EDIT For those who can't or won't read, highlighting to make it easier
Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

Yes, we know you can shoot them. Not every army can shoot down multiple units of marines, so they have to use CC.

Overlord Krycis
07-05-2012, 22:33
Okay then, do it. Make an "A game" GK army and an "A game" Tau army (arguably the worst codex in 40k ATM) and let me know who comes out on top.

Or an A game Nid army... :cries:

Bunnahabhain
07-05-2012, 22:36
Or an A game Nid army... :cries:

That's letting your pet tarantula loose on the table, and so ensuring your opponent won't go near it, isn't it? One bug I6 force weapons won't work on....

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 22:45
Meltedwing, please name any unit you like, that can take on an roughly equivalent points value of purifiers with halberds in CC, and have a decent chance of winning. Double points if it isn't from elsewhere in the GK codex.

Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

Next...

Oh my bad... I hadn't noticed the cc part of this statement.

Thunderwolf Cavalry (especially if the thunderwolves are charging)

Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

There's two.

Also:

Harlequins

Howling Banshees (this one would probably require that the banshees charge)

Craftworld
07-05-2012, 22:59
Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

Wait, what? Grey Hunters can beat a squad of Purifiers in CC? You're aware of what halberds actually do.. right?

Grimtuff
07-05-2012, 23:04
Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

Next...

Oh my bad... I hadn't noticed the cc part of this statement.

Thunderwolf Cavalry (especially if the thunderwolves are charging)

Grey Hunters (especially if they have a powerfist in the group)

There's two.

Both of the SW units mentioned will get wasted by the Purifiers. Say we have a max unit of Purifiers with Halberds, which is 260pts. Equivalent pts of TWC will be a max unit of 5 with 10 pts left over to spend on 2 Meltabombs or 1 Meltabomb and a MOTW. The Purifiers will strike at I6 and kills the TWC instantly with their NFW. You could go for 3 and have all of them with Storm Shields with 20pts left over. They'll be slightly more survivable but their damage output will be significantly less.

Same goes for the GH. So we have a unit of 10 with a WG with Power Fist (so roughly 180pts). 180pts of Purifiers (182 to be exact, 7 with Halberds) will wreck the GH before they even get to strike simply due to the amount of attacks and I6.


Your strawman fails.

Getz
07-05-2012, 23:06
Frankly, if you run a horde of unarmored troops into a unit of purifiers and expect to win, they you are a player who needs more experience and better strategies.

If you run a one trick pony army that only takes hordes of unarmored infantry and expect to beat down a purifier list then you probably need to rethink your list.


I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

Getz
07-05-2012, 23:15
Fireknife XV-8's. (edit: I missed the CC part of your statement. Fireknife XV-8's own purifier face if you aren't talking about starting in CC)

I wouldn't be so sure. A squad of Crisis suits only amount to six wounds, if the Purifiers are equipped with psycannons they can easily outshoot the Crisis suits is the can get in range. The suits do have a range advantage, but they're restricted to using their missile pods if they want to take advantage of it. even with favourable dice that will only net them a kill a turn and whilst constantly falling back might sound fine in a duel, on an actual table top it's a pretty worthless strategy - sooner or later the Purifiers will get within 24 inches and unless they have been unlucky with their armour saves, when they do so they'll be unleashing a whole lot of hurt on the suits.


Your knowledge of Space Wolves fail... your argument is pathetic.

Actually no, I've checked the codexes and he seems to be right. Care to explain why you think he isn't?

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 23:16
I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

Man, you guys really want to have your whine cake and eat it too.

You can't keep granting the GK unit every option contingent upon what the other army is throwing at them.

First it's "10 halberds will eff you" and then "they'll also have a halberd" and "if you survive their psycannons" How many models do you think is meant when you say 10 man? If you're going to throw 2 hammers and 4 psycannons in a unit of purifiers you only have 4 halberds. Seriously... make up your minds.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 23:24
I wouldn't be so sure. A squad of Crisis suits only amount to six wounds, if the Purifiers are equipped with psycannons they can easily outshoot the Crisis suits is the can get in range. The suits do have a range advantage, but they're restricted to using their missile pods if they want to take advantage of it. even with favourable dice that will only net them a kill a turn and whilst constantly falling back might sound fine in a duel, on an actual table top it's a pretty worthless strategy - sooner or later the Purifiers will get within 24 inches and unless they have been unlucky with their armour saves, when they do so they'll be unleashing a whole lot of hurt on the suits.

On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat. So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out. Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma. There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day.

As far as educating people on how to play space wolves, I have no interest in teaching someone who is being a jerk how to play spacewolves. I was asked for two units that can defeat and equal number of points in purifiers and I did. The fact that he's unaware of how is not my problem.

Getz
07-05-2012, 23:31
Man, you guys really want to have your whine cake and eat it too.

You can't keep granting the GK unit every option contingent upon what the other army is throwing at them.

First it's "10 halberds will eff you" and then "they'll also have a halberd" and "if you survive their psycannons" How many models do you think is meant when you say 10 man? If you're going to throw 2 hammers and 4 psycannons in a unit of purifiers you only have 4 halberds. Seriously... make up your minds.

Again with the not reading what we're actually writing. At what point did I specify that the whole squad had halberd? Other people may have been working on that assumption in different lines of discussion, but I wasn't. Instead, I was saying that a Purifier squad can have it all at no real cost in capability.

If you have four psycannons, it becomes a fearsome shooting unit, if you throw in a hammer then it has a contingency against being locked down in assault by walkers and it can still have five halberd giving you majority initiative of 6 (hich is important for sweeping advances) and 10+ I6 force weapons attacks against whatever ails you in assault. Whilst the unit is pretty expensive, this is a squad that can lay down substantial amounts of anti-infantry firepower on the move, kill AV14 tanks with shooting and in assault, kill hordes with a psychic power, Instant kill monstrous creatures, multi-wound infantry and characters and mess up elite assault infantry thanks to half it's attacks going at I6 and ignoring armour saves. It's not a jack of all trades, it's a master of all trades - and by investing in a relatively inexpensive character you can take it as a Troops choice.

Draconis
07-05-2012, 23:34
I believe the Cleansing flame was being used as an example of how they hose horde armies while still having force weapons to use vs. Power armored enemies.


I don't think you've been following the thread of the conversation. The discussion of cleansing flame was prompted by Dazza612 claiming that it wasn't very good because it allowed an armour save. Nobody claimed they were invicible (my experience is that they go splat pretty much like every other MEQ when hit by ordnance) but there's no denying that they're damn dangerous in assault because they have the wargear to fight elite infantry and monsterous creatures, and cleansing flame to wipe out hordes. Most assault units are specialised for dealing with one threat or the other - not all at them at the same time (oh, and did I mention they're a good shooting unit too?).

You also seem to woefully ignorant of what other armies have to fight with. Orks, for example, either have large numbers of low save infantry who get boned by cleansing flame (Boyz) or small numbers of multi-wound pseudo characters who get boned by force weapons (Nobz). They do not have a middle ground and about the only things in the Ork army that can take on Purifiers in combat with any chance of success are Deff Dredds and Killa Kans, but even then you can have a couple of Hammers in the squad as a contingency plan, and that's assuming you don't just blow them away first with your Psycannons.

Does that mean Orks cannot ever beat Purifiers - of course not. I can think of several ways of tackling them with the Ork codex, but they mostly revolve around taking specific, otherwise non-optimal units like Looted Wagons with Boomguns or Flashgitz which in a competitive setting will weaken me against everyone else - that said, everyone else will probably also be playing Grey Knights...

Tyranids are even worse off as they tend to rely on Genestealers to tackle hard targets that can't be swamped with gaunts and their firepower isn't really strong enough to kill large numbers of MEQs on demand. Much like Orks they have little choice but to play to your strengths. I'll grant you that IG, on the other hand, would never assault you and if you made it into assault with them would just feed you ten men and get back to shooting at you.

and yet they all missed the original point. the purifiers are ap4. and the OP said horde armies. that squad would eat my entire army of nids up from the get go. ive honestly gotten burnt out on the game just because of the favoritism. there is certainly power creep, and its all shared by marine armies.

Vaktathi
07-05-2012, 23:35
On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat. A pretty vague and meaningless statement. That's simply a logical thing to do, it doesn't really address the purifiers.


So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out. In which case the suits themselves aren't really a match for them. Keep in mind, the GK army will also have more than just the purifiers as well, so at this point we're not really in the original arena here.


Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma. That's expecting to be able to have terrain that A: completely blocks LoS (not something that's always common on many if not most 5E tables) and B: Is fortuitously situated along the Purifiers line of advance with nothing obstructing your firing lanes and they don't have much they can do to mitigate it. This is also assuming there isn't terrain for the Purifiers to take advantage of themselves. If the suits to rapidfire plasma range, then you've already been in range of the purifier's own weaponry and taking fire for at least 1 turn.



There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day. Basically it's reading like you're assuming pretty much all the stars line up just as you need them (terrain, LoS, etc) and the Purifier squad is feeding itself into your guns without making it's own use of terrain or firepower, factoring in the rest of the Tau army and disregarding the additional GK forces.

Does this mean the Purifier's have the clear advantage here? No, but you're assuming an awful lot is going right for the Tau and nothing for the GK's.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 23:45
A pretty vague and meaningless statement. That's simply a logical thing to do, it doesn't really address the purifiers.

In which case the suits themselves aren't really a match for them. Keep in mind, the GK army will also have more than just the purifiers as well, so at this point we're not really in the original arena here.

That's expecting to be able to have terrain that A: completely blocks LoS (not something that's always common on many if not most 5E tables) and B: Is fortuitously situated along the Purifiers line of advance with nothing obstructing your firing lanes and they don't have much they can do to mitigate it. This is also assuming there isn't terrain for the Purifiers to take advantage of themselves. If the suits to rapidfire plasma range, then you've already been in range of the purifier's own weaponry and taking fire for at least 1 turn.

Basically it's reading like you're assuming pretty much all the stars line up just as you need them (terrain, LoS, etc) and the Purifier squad is feeding itself into your guns without making it's own use of terrain or firepower, factoring in the rest of the Tau army and disregarding the additional GK forces.

Does this mean the Purifier's have the clear advantage here? No, but you're assuming an awful lot is going right for the Tau and nothing for the GK's.

A. I've never seen a 5th ed table that didn't have plenty of ruins on it. B. I didn't change the scenario, he did. Perhaps you forgot to read the post I was replying to. C. When I'm talking about what the suits will do to the purifiers (by themselves) i'm going back to the original scenario and not continuing the "in a real game" scenario. D. I'm not assuming anything that is right to assume. IE. I assume there will be terrain consistent with what is always on the board whenever I play 40k.

I'm not talking about a "stars all lined up" scenario here. I'm being realistic. "stars all lined up" would be a situation where his dice hate him and my dice are loaded. That is not what I was presenting in this situation.

The Red Pilgrim
07-05-2012, 23:45
Your knowledge of Space Wolves fail... your argument is pathetic.

How, exactly, is he wrong? Everything he said - down to the points - is dead on.

Again, you keep talking, but can't back anything up.

Getz
07-05-2012, 23:49
On an actual table top I wouldn't throw a single unit of suits at a single unit of purifers. I would throw pretty much everything I have at the most relevant threat until it's dead, then move to the next threat. So on the turn I'm whiping purifiers off the board, they would likely be eating a whole lot more than what one unit of suits can throw out.

The scenario was one on one - changing the rules of the game won't help you - besides, you're ignoring that the GK has an entire army to play with now.


Not to mention I can wall hop with my suits so that only "I" get to take shots while my purifier opponent has to foot slog his way to me and by the time he gets anywhere near me I'm now issuing rapidfire plasma. There is really no realistic way a unit of purifiers would ever get to my suits alive. Maybe if I was having a tremendously bad dice day.

Look, this only works if you have an infinite table and the terrain is all set up in your favour. I play Tau, I've played Tau ever since they came out - I know that what you're describing here only works in theory. In practice you either run out of space or run out of cover - or heaven forbid the enemy decides to run for a few turns to close the gap. Further, the moment I get to use my plasma rifles he gets to use his Psycannons. Eight BS4, S7 rending shots will easily do as much damage as three BS3 S6 AP2 shots, and I'm not even factoring in the stormbolters and the fact that he has four more wounds total and six of them are ablative. It would be a long and dull fight, and the Crisis suits could (perhaps even should) win it, but it would be far from a forgone conclusion.


As far as educating people on how to play space wolves, I have no interest in teaching someone who is being a jerk how to play spacewolves. I was asked for two units that can defeat and equal number of points in purifiers and I did. The fact that he's unaware of how is not my problem.

Well, the onus is on you to either back up your statement or stop trolling, because I am reasonably familiar with both armies and I don't see how the GH's in particular are supposed to win outside flukey dice.

meltedwing
07-05-2012, 23:57
Further, the moment I get to use my plasma rifles he gets to use his Psycannons.

If you play Tau, how are you failing to understand the power of JSJ suits? I shoot you, you don't get to shoot. It's not rocket science.

Getz
08-05-2012, 00:09
Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

I am well aware of the strengths and weaknesses of JSJ suits. As I said before, what you are describing only works indefinitely in theory. On an actual table top you can't withdraw forever. For starters, by constantly withdrawing you are actually letting the Purifier squad determine where you end up. If he starts in the middle of the table and advances on you relentlessly he can use it's movement to push you into a corner of the table, whereupon you have to break out through his ranged weapon danger-zone before he closes to assault range

Kevlar
08-05-2012, 00:15
Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

I think most people jump out of line of sight behind a rock or a wall or something.

meltedwing
08-05-2012, 00:16
Because if I'm just within 24" to use my plasma rifles, and then jump back 6" to 30" away, he can walk forward 6" making the range just under 24" again and shoot me with his 24" range assault weapons. You're quite right, it's not rocket science - it's simple maths.

Ok, clearly you completely failed to read what I wrote. I was talking about wall hopping. I wouldn't be jumping 6" back to get to 30" distance, I'd be hopping 6" (or less) back to break LOS.

If you're going to argue with me this vehemently and accuse me of not reading, perhaps you should ensure that you are at least not doing what you are accusing me of.

Until you, that are arguing with me, can go back, read and comprehend what I wrote, please feel free not to reply any further. As is, you're just making fools of yourselves and ensuring that anyone who reads this thread is utterly and completely aware of how you completely fail to grasp the game of 40k.

As long as you continue to blurt out ill conceived gibberish and claim it is irrefutable proof that I am wrong, I will refrain from discussing this with you futher.

If you can manage to put together a well thought out response that actually shows that you have some meaningful understanding of the situation then perhaps I will reply.

Good evening.

Getz
08-05-2012, 00:22
I think most people jump out of line of sight behind a rock or a wall or something.

That assumes that there will always be LoS blocking cover to hide behind whilst moving away from the enemy. Otherwise you end up tied to a single piece of cover - in which case, once he gets close enough (or more realistically, flanks your position) no amount of fancy maneuvering will prevent you getting shot up.


Ok, clearly you completely failed to read what I wrote. I was talking about wall hopping. I wouldn't be jumping 6" back to get to 30" distance, I'd be hopping 6" (or less) back to break LOS.

If you're going to argue with me this vehemently and accuse me of not reading, perhaps you should ensure that you are at least not doing what you are accusing me of.

Blah blah blah, you clearly think you are very clever, but the failure was yours, not mine. You quoted a specific sentence from my post referring to ranges and plasma rifles - naturally I assumed that you were still referring to that specific instance. If you cannot communicate clearly then it is no fault of mine if I misunderstand you.


Until you, that are arguing with me, can go back, read and comprehend what I wrote, please feel free not to reply any further. As is, you're just making fools of yourselves and ensuring that anyone who reads this thread is utterly and completely aware of how you completely fail to grasp the game of 40k.

Yeah, yeah. Childish insults but still nothing to back up your claims. Look Sunshine, I've actually tried to talk though this with you in a reasonable manner. I haven't called you names and I've explained why I think you're wrong - you just throw back abuse and act like petulant teenager. By the tenor of you comments I seriously doubt you've played many games at all, because literally no Tau player with any experience would be stupid enough to think that simply backing up or JSJ into cover will save you forever against an enemy with freedom of movement - your plan only works if the Grey Knights aren't allowed to move at all or the table is specifically set up for your advantage. You say I'm making a fool of myself - well, if people honestly think I'm talking from my behind I invite them to say so, but honestly kid, I wouldn't hold your breath.


As long as you continue to blurt out ill conceived gibberish and claim it is irrefutable proof that I am wrong, I will refrain from discussing this with you futher.

Mate, nobody here but you thinks you're right. Doesn't that tell you something?


If you can manage to put together a well thought out response that actually shows that you have some meaningful understanding of the situation then perhaps I will reply.

Good evening.

Please, do me a favour and just don't reply.

Vaktathi
08-05-2012, 00:44
A. I've never seen a 5th ed table that didn't have plenty of ruins on it. I have. Most people don't routinely play on tables with tons of 3"+ height terrain, they may have a few, but not by any means plentiful or even present. Not every table is the ruins of Stalingrad, many may be marshes, forests (with tree stands you can see through), cratered no-man's lands where cover is primarily vehicle wrecks, etc. Even with ruins, quite often, it's possible to see through parts of many buildings to engage units on the other side. Getting a cover save for your suits is likely something you can rely on, blocking LoS entirely to 3" tall 40mm models is not by any means always possible. Without being able to rely on blocking LoS entirely, and without significant assurance that the Purifiers aren't going to themselves be able to stay out of terrain and/or LoS, your scenario falls apart.

For many 25% terrain tables, in fact most, terrain you'll be reliably able to hide completely behind isn't always available or where you need it. If you've ever been to a major tournament event, such will in fact be rather rare, especially outside the table center, the big stuff will usually be used to cockblock Leman Russ tanks from shooting across the board and get stuck in the middle, not necessarily in the deployment zones.


Stalingrad tables may be the norm for *you*, but not by any means for everyone nor should they be assumed to be the norm. Even when they are, you have to assume that you won't have shots to the Purifiers or that they'll be able to claim cover saves against your AP2 shooting.




C. When I'm talking about what the suits will do to the purifiers (by themselves) i'm going back to the original scenario and not continuing the "in a real game" scenario. D. I'm not assuming anything that is right to assume. IE. I assume there will be terrain consistent with what is always on the board whenever I play 40k.

I'm not talking about a "stars all lined up" scenario here. I'm being realistic. "stars all lined up" would be a situation where his dice hate him and my dice are loaded. That is not what I was presenting in this situation. You're assuming there is lots of LoS blocking terrain you can hop over and behind that will completely block LoS where you need it, and that there will be little or not terrain either blocking LoS to the purifiers or providing a cover save. That's a pretty "stars lined up" scenario. None those things are necessarily true. Many tables conform perfectly to terrain guidelines or exceed it that will not provide you with that setup that you are relying on. I just played on one last weekend with my IG and almost got pooched because I couldn't make full use of my guns until the enemy had closed and was within range themselves with their much shorter ranged weaponry due to lots of LoS blocking terrain in the center and relatively little tall terrain in the deployment zones.

mercury14
08-05-2012, 01:01
In general I have observed them to be fairly well balanced with other tier 1 armies, but sometimes they get monkey stomped by Eldar and Tau.


This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

meltedwing
08-05-2012, 01:09
This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

No doubt... right after the GK codex came out it was many games against Eldar that helped me refine my lists.

There is really nothing more frustrating as a GK player than being stripped of all your powers because a farseer is staying just out of range (so he can still fortune/doom/guide/whatever) in a transport that is nigh impossible to destroy. As a GK player, you either spend all game chasing him down and trying to kill him, or you accept that you are handicapped against Eldar and try to win without psyker powers.

Another big one that hurts is the pathfinders and their sniper rifles with 2+ cover saves. Those guys just ruin your lunch if they are placed properly.

Kevlar
08-05-2012, 01:51
This is exactly right. As an Eldar player I'm 6-0-0 against GK and I think only one of those matches was a close call. I control the flow of battle and cover the objectives much better than GK. And I have no problem shooting them off the map with or without Doom.

It's so easy that I intentionally weaken my lists when I play against GK. Bringing 2-3 Fire Prisms (S9 insta-squishing AP2 blasts) just vaporized Paladins way too easily. So then I started bringing squads of War Walkers and Vipers but S6 spamming them off the map was also too easy. Fire Dragons eat Dreadknights (and the rest of the GK codex) for lunch too...

Then I tried a list centered about three squads of Dire Avengers with Doom/bladestorm, which typically only kills 1-2 Paladins. But then I assault them and watch them kill like one Dire Avenger per round due to Defend and a re-rollable 5++ save. While they're tied up I just go take the objectives and roll to a win.

Runes of Warding is also a killer against GK.

Ah, so thats why Eldar are tearing it up in all the major tournaments. Or not. I don't see too many competitive paladin lists. How does your super Eldar fare against MSU henchmen/purifier in chimeras/razorbacks, with the obligatory psyrifle dreads? Somehow I don't think your prisms will earn much of their point value back before they get turned to slag.

Vlad Urkana
08-05-2012, 02:07
No doubt... right after the GK codex came out it was many games against Eldar that helped me refine my lists.

There is really nothing more frustrating as a GK player than being stripped of all your powers because a farseer is staying just out of range (so he can still fortune/doom/guide/whatever) in a transport that is nigh impossible to destroy. As a GK player, you either spend all game chasing him down and trying to kill him, or you accept that you are handicapped against Eldar and try to win without psyker powers.

Another big one that hurts is the pathfinders and their sniper rifles with 2+ cover saves. Those guys just ruin your lunch if they are placed properly.

That's still a very Rock-Paper-Scissors statement about GK though. There are *almost* always going to be armies that just roflstomp some other army out there, but the thing with GK's is that they have a strictly superior footing over comparatively more armies than the rest of the field. Both flavors of Eldar are in a unique position relative to GK's as they have access to gobs of high strength low AP weapons, are relatively accurate, and are mobile enough to out threat GK's. The only other armies out there that shred GK's at range (IG, Tau) don't have that same mobility to escape when the GK's go to close the gap and get in melee, even accounting for JSJ tactics with suits. Those armies also happen to be incredibly weak against all of the GK firepower. Then there are the armies that have a decent chance against GK's (SW, BA) and can build to beat them or possibly outplay them, although that is an uphill battle most of the time. Next there are armies that have a less than ideal chance (Orks, Chaos) to beat GK. And finally there are armies that have next to no chance and have to hope for horrible dice/favor of the Gods/freak weather to beath them (Tyranids, Daemons). These two I don't really blame on the GK as they should roflstomp Daemons a solid 75% of the time and bugs were the whipping child of Cruddance who decided that Eternal Warrior was just too OP to be in the same book as a Hive Tyrant. I can't say much to Necrons or SoB since I haven't had a chance/wanted to look at their books yet.

TL:DR There are the normal tiers of competitive armies who roughly balance with one another and then there are GK who are far and away the best out there; only having a couple of solid competitors, then having a good matchup against the rest of the field.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 02:09
How about thunder hammer and storm shield assault terminators or Ymgarl genestealers or blood angel assault marines, grey hunters. I'm sure there are other units which can do it but not familiar with other codexes.

wyvirn
08-05-2012, 02:17
Genestealers of all types take it hard against halberds or GK in cover =(

mercury14
08-05-2012, 02:22
Ah, so thats why Eldar are tearing it up in all the major tournaments.

Why make stupid comments like this? You know that's not what I suggested.



How does your super Eldar fare against MSU henchmen/purifier in chimeras/razorbacks, with the obligatory psyrifle dreads? Somehow I don't think your prisms will earn much of their point value back before they get turned to slag.

You think Eldar are particularly afraid of Dreads of any kind? Umm, no.

Purifiers don't scare Eldar.

Chimera/Razorback spam, yes that's a challenge.

The Dude
08-05-2012, 02:50
This thread is getting rather emotional. Please rein it back in, people.

The Dude
The Warseer Inquisition

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 03:23
I'll assume, with the benefit of doubt, you're merely being silly, and not actively trolling.

What is broken about purifers? Sure, a wound on a 4+, with save allowed, isn't scary for 3+ or 2+ save units. For a unit of 30 Gaunts or Ork boys, losing ~12 before they even start to fight is scary. Let alone Genestealers, banshees, DE stuff, etc, that have poor saves but are lethal to marines in combat? Losing almost half the unit before they can strike isn't fun.

Grey Knights can spam chimeras with cheap, scoring, shooty content better than Guard. They can spam cheap psykers better than Guard. They can out do almost any force at almost any trick.



No I'm not trolling. I used to be one of the people who wined about the grey knight codex when it came out then I realised how to beat it and have done so with my blood angel army! I have also seen orks smash grey knights and have seen nids beat grey knights as well, mech imperial guard does very well against them and space wolves can beat them as well, in fact deathwing would do well against them as well.

And 19 s4 templates or 19 s8 missiles aren't? How about the masses of shooting which imperial guard can put out with very cheap veterans with plasma guns/melta guns, scouting cheap vendettas which ar emobile gun platforms that carry troops as well and ridiculously good psykers! Look I'm not saying they're not a very good codex, they're definitely in the top 3, I just think that the massively slewed hatred against grey knights is unjustified.

Best way to kill purifiers is shoot the hell out of them and then once you have destroyed close to half the unit then charge and only if you have nothing left to shoot at them! Or how about nids swarming them with really really cheap gaunts, or lots of str 5 templates! To be fair as well the two codexes you mentioned aren't really great codexes and can't compete with most of the armies out let alone grey knights!

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 03:27
Genestealers of all types take it hard against halberds or GK in cover =(

You are using a specific one off scenario. Nids don't do very well against much that are in cover, nids don't do very well against many armies for that matter is it's the worst codex after sisters (which is a white dwarf codex). Don't get me wrong I think grey knights is in the top 3 codexes around and very good but they are very much beatable. A good grey knights player will not send them into close combat unless he has to, not because they're not good in combat just because they're better at shooting. Likewise an opponent should try and avoid close combat with them and shoot the hell out of them until they are weak enough to engage in close combat!

scapegoatboy69
08-05-2012, 05:52
Is that partially due to the low model count? I kinda prefer fewer models, so I can keep tabs on them more easily. I don't easily think in terms of 'units'.

Probably. I'm a DE player who doesn't do the whole spam Blasters and Venoms thing. That kinda leaves assaulting, 36" moves, and 25 point missile launchers to get the job done. I'm fine playing Hard Mode 40k.

I'm a big fan of maneuvering for advantage, setting up climactic assaults, and trying to out-think my opponent on the table top. The problem is, I haven't gotten to do those fun things in my games against Grey Knights. Out-thinking a transparent plan is kinda meh, DE's codex has nothing that can beat a strike squad with Halberds, and there aren't really isolated GK units to pick on.

In all of my previous games against GK it's just been a question of bringing the right wargear to the party or rolling enough dice. I'd like decisions made in game to be more important than they are in 40k. Grey Knights as a codex highlights this problem.



I think if people on here were truly honest with their W/L ratio in reference to GK, you'd see that the GK aren't as OP as some people indicate.

...blood of kittens, dude. Dey have ALL TEH REZULTZ! BoLS is an alright source too.

DeviantApostle
08-05-2012, 06:28
In short, GK is the 'easy mode' tournament army, and before the GK players get all up in arms about that statement please read the rest of what I have to say.

I'm not saying that GK is unbeatable or somehow 'lesser', I'm saying it's easy to understand and use for tournament play. It's also very forgiving a point efficient.

As soon as it hit the shelf, it was obvious that this is the THE Razorspam codex. It's everything about Razorspam that made it good dialed to 11. You don't need to worry about high AV or AP because not only do you have lascannons and TL Plasma Razors, all your guys have PWs. Don't have to worry about hordes because Purifiers. You like Long Fangs and Riflemen, combine them and have Psyriflemen. Hate MCs? Everything has Force Weapons. Old Razorspam had issues getting shaken, so Fortitude... and so on and so on and so on...

You can throw together a Razorspam GK list that can take on every other codex in the game... GREAT for torurnaments where you'll be expected to face many different armies and styles before the day's done. You can write a GK list that will ruin everyone's day, from hordes to deep strike to MC spam to transport spam to 3+ FNP. Also, it's a marine army, so it's resillient and forgiving of your mistakes (which you will make after hours and hours of gaming).

Newbies can pick up the army and compete, veterans can make it do acrobatics. Not only is the learning curve low (practically flat if you've been watching the tournament scene for the last few years), it's also a relatively cheap army to pick up and some builds make it even cheaper. It's also easy to assemble and paint. Low model count also makes your decisions easier and your turns quicker.

Is it any wonder everyone hates seeing GK? Not only are they usually the best represented army (bringing in the 'ugh, not another one!' factor on top of being another marine army), they're designed to mess with everyone's sthicks. Players of other marine books look at a bunch of their own guys only with S5 FWs and SBs for a couple of extra points. Players of Xeno books see yet another Razorspam list... only worse because everything throwing bullets hits harder for very little points wise.

What we have is a perfect confluence of factors that specifically plays into the tournament scene. Ironically, the OP issues aren't as big a deal to me because we've got plenty of other OP marine books that GK's toys kinda blend in.

Bassik
08-05-2012, 08:58
I play Grey Knights myself, but not the way people on the internet apear to play them. No spam, no psyflemen (A dreadnought without a DCCW is hardly any dreadnought at all!), just, you know, an army build around models I like. Is that so hard? Do we, as gamers, always have to take the best options, and judge armies only on their most powerfull lists?

People, we've done this before. I've been in the hobby for over ten years, and there's always this one army that people just can't stop whining about, because there are potential builds that are ridiculously broken. Also you never, ever encounter those builds unless you go to some hard-core tournament, while 40K is not a good tournament game, and never was.

So enjoy the game, play against Grey Knights, and if people do show up with these net lists, call them on it.
For the Emprah's sake, the game is designed for a cool evening with your mates, not to replace chess tournaments!

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 09:06
How about thunder hammer and storm shield assault terminators or Ymgarl genestealers or blood angel assault marines, grey hunters. I'm sure there are other units which can do it but not familiar with other codexes.

You are using a specific one off scenario.
No you're the one using a specific scenario.

Against roughly equal points of purifiers... Grey hunters fail( see above), genestealers get nowhere. Blood angel assault troops ( I'll assume the FNP priest is there, and has not yet been sniped) will be messy. Probably comes down to who gets the charge. Without FNP, they'll fold like the Grey hunters. TH/SS terminators. I'll assume cheap ones... you're facing ~8 purifiers ( assume no power in play on either side..). Cleansing flame will do about 1/2 a wound, the halberds will do ~1 wound, and the other weapons do about ~1/2 a wound. 3 terminators left to strike back, kills 1-2 purifiers depending on if you got the charge. Neither side goes anywhere. Next turn~ 2 terminators die before they strike, 1 strikes back, kills ~1/2. Neither side runs. Turn 3. 1- 2 terminators dies, purifiers win


No I'm not trolling. I used to be one of the people who wined about the grey knight codex when it came out then I realised how to beat it and have done so with my blood angel army! I have also seen orks smash grey knights and have seen nids beat grey knights as well, mech imperial guard does very well against them and space wolves can beat them as well, in fact deathwing would do well against them as well.
And again, nobody has said they're unbeatable, just too strong.


Best way to kill purifiers is shoot the hell out of them and then once you have destroyed close to half the unit then charge and only if you have nothing left to shoot at them! Or how about nids swarming them with really really cheap gaunts,
You do know cleansing flame works just the same regardless of how many purifiers there are. It'll kill almost half the horde if they charge 1 or 10 purifiers

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 09:39
Wait, what? Grey Hunters can beat a squad of Purifiers in CC? You're aware of what halberds actually do.. right?

How many points is a purifier 24 points and a halberd is another 2 points. Grey hunters are 15 points so you can get 7 grey hunters with a power fist for the same cost as 5 purifiers all with halberds. On avg the purifiers hit with 5 attacks and kill 3. You then have 9 attacks coming back and 3 power fist attacks so combat res will be about the same unless the purifiers get hammerhand off, but you stop all psychic powers on a 4+.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 09:53
Bunnahabain you took my 'specific scenario' example out of context the poster mentioned genestealers attacking purifiers in cover which obviously you wouldn't do with any nid as they don't have the equivalent of grenades!

7 purifiers with 2 psycannons, a master crafted hammer and 4 halberds cost 225 points you can get a lot of grey hunter for that and only 4 purifiers go before you do. Sure they have cleansing flame but then you don't have hammerhand or your force weapons and you have a rune priest which can stop cleansing flame on a 4+! Even if say the purifiers all survived wihout casualties and you failed to stop it and they passed their leadership on avg against a 10 man grey hunter squad it will kill 2-3 of them, not really game changing.

lordbeefy
08-05-2012, 10:08
What tickles me, and this is no personal slight on any person, is the use of such examples as 'show me any unit that can take on a unit of purifiers in cc and beat them' as an example of an army list being broken.

Let me explain, if i see a unit of purifiers coming my way, I dont try to take them in cc....thats THEIR territory, instead i shoot the sheet out of them before they get into cc with me. This is the same tactic i use against Death Company or indeed any of the major cc powered units. Why would I willingly put myself at a disadvantage in combat, its poor tactics.

Every army has strengths and weaknesses...GKs weakness that I see is far less anti AV14 ranged, but thats just me.

Grimtuff
08-05-2012, 10:10
How many points is a purifier 24 points and a halberd is another 2 points. Grey hunters are 15 points so you can get 7 grey hunters with a power fist for the same cost as 5 purifiers all with halberds. On avg the purifiers hit with 5 attacks and kill 3. You then have 9 attacks coming back and 3 power fist attacks so combat res will be about the same unless the purifiers get hammerhand off, but you stop all psychic powers on a 4+.

Since when do you get 3 PF attacks? You'll only get that with an attached Wolf Guard on the charge. A GH has 1 attack base and will not get a second one unless he has 2 Power Fists, which he cannot have.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 10:15
I thought a grey hunter sgt have 2 attacks and don't they have counter attack. Grey hunter troops have pistol and ccw and counter attack.

Grimtuff
08-05-2012, 10:16
I thought a grey hunter sgt have 2 attacks and don't they have counter attack. Grey hunter troops have pistol and ccw and counter attack.

*facepalm*

Read the 5th ed rulebook and the SW codex next time champ. Then your argument may have a little more credibility.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 10:19
And yes lordbeefy I have said that multiple times, shoot the hell out of them, then shoot again. Sure grey knights are incredibly powerful you just need to know how to beat them.

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 10:24
What tickles me, and this is no personal slight on any person, is the use of such examples as 'show me any unit that can take on a unit of purifiers in cc and beat them' as an example of an army list being broken.

Let me explain, if i see a unit of purifiers coming my way, I dont try to take them in cc....thats THEIR territory, instead i shoot the sheet out of them before they get into cc with me. This is the same tactic i use against Death Company or indeed any of the major cc powered units. Why would I willingly put myself at a disadvantage in combat, its poor tactics.

Every army has strengths and weaknesses...GKs weakness that I see is far less anti AV14 ranged, but thats just me.

And if it was just one unit, you'd be absolutely correct. The trouble is, the chances are if you see one unit of purifiers, you'll see several more, and Crowe. You can't go ' I must shoot that dead right now' to half the opposite army. You can fault an opponent for not being able to kill one marine unit by shooting, but many forces rely on CC for a large part of their effect. The fault lies in the GK rules if it suddenly cripples a whole swath of other armies, especially if they can compete fairly well against other 'CC bias marines +1'

In a real game, you often don't have the luxury to ignore a scoring unit sitting in cover on a objective, you've got to kill it. If you don't it sits there, scores, and hits you with a load of S5-7 firepower.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 10:26
*facepalm*

Read the 5th ed rulebook and the SW codex next time champ. Then your argument may have a little more credibility.

Ok my apologies I was off by one attack. As stated multiple times I wouldn't be charging purifiers with another elite unit. I would shoot the hell out of them. Then if there were 0-2 halberds left then charge if I absolutely had to!

Grimtuff
08-05-2012, 10:28
Ok my apologies I was off by one attack. As stated multiple times I wouldn't be charging purifiers with another elite unit. I would shoot the hell out of them. Then if there were 0-2 halberds left then charge if I absolutely had to!

See Bunna's post above yours to see why this does not work in practice.

Latro_
08-05-2012, 10:31
I thought a grey hunter sgt have 2 attacks and don't they have counter attack. Grey hunter troops have pistol and ccw and counter attack.

grey hunters dont have sergeants
a pistol or CCW does not give you an extra attack with a power fist
counter attack is a ld test and if you pass you get an attack as if you charges, if you are charged.

So a GH with a PF is likely to mostly have 2 attacks in the the first round of CC and 1 thereafter. To get the kinda attacks you are talking about you need to attach a wolf guard which isnt a whole heap of pts more than a normal marine sergeant but it has the added negative of not counting towards your minimums for unlocking meltaguns etc which combined with wanting to put them in a rhino can be pretty meh.

also we really shouldn't get onto the 'i'd do this with this' thing as it'll go nowhere, countless WS debates have proven this.

Bassik
08-05-2012, 10:33
And if it was just one unit, you'd be absolutely correct. The trouble is, the chances are if you see one unit of purifiers, you'll see several more, and Crowe.

What, every time? Most of the time? Sometimes? Or just that one time? It seems highly unlikeley to me that all Grey Knight players come up with similair lists that require a special character, even though special characters are usually "not done" in local clubs.

Latro_
08-05-2012, 10:35
Special characters not done in local clubs? what edition you living in bro? lol They'v been common place ever since they became the way to unlock army styles actual years ago.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 10:49
I give up this is going to go round in circles I freely admit that the Grey knight codex is a top 3 codex and very very powerful but it's only OP or broken if you can't beat it but what irks me is that this same level of animosity isn't directed towards mech guard or the space wolf long fang spam list! Then the examples people use like nids and orks against grey knights, sorry to say but most armies can beat both those codexes as they are hold (except for nids which was just a bad codex) !

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 10:54
And to set the record straight I know a pf and a pistol doesn't give you an extra attack I was talking about the non powerfist grey hunters. My mistake was I forgot that grey hunters couldn't have sgt's but they would have 2 attacks with counter attack. But seeing everybody else seems to assume grey knight psychic abilities go off automatically and can't be hooded or negated I just kept the same logic with the puppies. Personally as a grey knights player I'd be more concerned about the potential 19 krak or frag missiles coming my way than the grey hunters.

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 11:05
What, every time? Most of the time? Sometimes? Or just that one time? It seems highly unlikeley to me that all Grey Knight players come up with similair lists that require a special character, even though special characters are usually "not done" in local clubs.

A quick skim through the GK lists on here.

37 GK lists, of which:
25 have no purifiers ( 4 Dragowing, 8 Coeataz henchmen spam, 13 mixed.)
12 have purifiers, of which 9 have multiple units of them and Crowe to make them scoring. If present, there is an average of 2.41 purifier units per list. In crowe lists, they average 2.88 units a list.

So, assuming this is roughly representative, over half ( 21/39) of the GK lists have a special character based build. Most times you'll see Purifiers ( in this case 26 of the 29 units I counted), they are in lists with multiple units of them and Crowe.

Bassik
08-05-2012, 11:15
A quick skim through the GK lists on here.

37 GK lists, of which:
25 have no purifiers ( 4 Dragowing, 8 Coeataz henchmen spam, 13 mixed.)
12 have purifiers, of which 9 have multiple units of them and Crowe to make them scoring. If present, there is an average of 2.41 purifier units per list. In crowe lists, they average 2.88 units a list.

So, assuming this is roughly representative, over half ( 21/39) of the GK lists have a special character based build. Most times you'll see Purifiers ( in this case 26 of the 29 units I counted), they are in lists with multiple units of them and Crowe.

I do not believe for one moment that lists on Warseer are good at representing what is happening in the real world. Most people I know build their armies because of the models, not to completeley dominate their friends. I have only seen one internet list in all my life, it was a Blood Angel power list, and it was used by a man in his '30s to beat a newly started Eldar player. In most clubs, sportsmanship does count.

Dreadlordpaul
08-05-2012, 11:17
You guys do realise how hard khorne bezerkers and noise marines counter grey knights right.

Bezerkers: equal to GK base in close combat can also have 3 plasma pistols and a power weapon or power fist.

Thousand sons: AP3 bolters need i say more? also has a psyker in the squad

Noise Marines: Slightly weaker in CC than zerkers but they can get more shots than most GK squads and have access to a power weapon/ power fist on champ and have access to 2 ap3 weapons.

Bassik
08-05-2012, 11:21
You guys do realise how hard khorne bezerkers and noise marines counter grey knights right.

Bezerkers: equal to GK base in close combat can also have 3 plasma pistols and a power weapon or power fist.

Thousand sons: AP3 bolters need i say more? also has a psyker in the squad

Noise Marines: Slightly weaker in CC than zerkers but they can get more shots than most GK squads and have access to a power weapon/ power fist on champ and have access to 2 ap3 weapons.

Exactly. Especially the AP3 bolters will hurt them very bad.
I also play Guard, Orks and Daemons, and know these armies very well. Daemons will be destroyed by my GK, obviously, but Orks will be a lot harder to fight, especially my orks that is mostly just boy+vehicle spam, and my guard would annihilate my Grey Knights, with all the big templates they drop and the ridiculous number of men that can fire a ridiculous number of lasguns at guys that, in the end, die just as easy as normal Space Marines.

Getz
08-05-2012, 12:24
Sure grey knights are incredibly powerful you just need to know how to beat them.

So you agree with us then? Nobody is saying that Grey Knights are invincible, we're saying they're very badly balanced.


Every army has strengths and weaknesses...GKs weakness that I see is far less anti AV14 ranged, but thats just me.

Um, I hate to break it to you, but a stationary Psycannon is better at killing AV 14 than just about anything short of a Railgun. On a point for point basis they're better than Railguns.

Also, it is easy to trick out GKs with lascannon Razorbacks if you're especially worried about AV 14 over 24" away.


I do not believe for one moment that lists on Warseer are good at representing what is happening in the real world.

Okay, real world example. At my LGC there are two regular GK players and two occasional GK players. The Regular players play Draigowing or Purifier spam with Crowe. One of the occasional players (me) runs Cortez, the other changes his list up each time and has at one point or another played all of the above, although he has also run non-SC lists - so three and a half players out of four using special characters in GK lists. However I would concede that my LGC isn't representative sample, but then again nor is yours...


You guys do realise how hard khorne bezerkers and noise marines counter grey knights right.

Bezerkers: equal to GK base in close combat can also have 3 plasma pistols and a power weapon or power fist.

Thousand sons: AP3 bolters need i say more? also has a psyker in the squad

Noise Marines: Slightly weaker in CC than zerkers but they can get more shots than most GK squads and have access to a power weapon/ power fist on champ and have access to 2 ap3 weapons.

I play Chaos Marines too, and I can categorically state that Khorne Beserkers do not work well against I6 power weapons. AP3 bolters aren't all that helpful in an environment flooded with 4+ cover saves and the Only Redeeming feature of Noise Marines is their I5 - which once again of absolutely no use against I6 power weapons.

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 12:52
Thousand sons: AP3 bolters need i say more? also has a psyker in the squad
Who else gets psychic squads? Grey knights!

For reference.
AP3 bolters... 1 or 2 shots 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 4+ cover saves... each shooter does 11/54 wounds at over 12", or 22/54 at under 12".
Psybolt stormbolters... 2 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 3+ armour saves ....each shooter has a 16/54 chance of inflicting a wound at 0-24, whilst moving if wished"

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 12:57
Getz I agree with parts of what people are saying. I have said all along that they're one of the top 3 codexes what I take issue with is the notion that they are the most powerful codex out there and deserve this strong emotional outpouring. Where is the emotional threads on long fang spam or mech guard. The only real issues I have with grey knights are the I6 halberds and grenades on termiantors. Yes there marines have some cool toys (force weapons, hammerhand and other psychic powers) but at the end of the day they're expensive marines and will die just as easily from plasma, melta, a battle cannon or massed shooting. Psychic abilities can bestopped or negated by most armies, most armies have the shooting to bring them down as well, however unfortunately the older codexes will struggle against them but then they ten to struggle against a lot of armies. It just irks me that nobody seems to care that for example for about the same points cost as a venerable dred with 2 auto-cannons you can get a scouting gunship which can transport vets with 4 melta guns at about the same price or 19 str 8 missiles coming at you a turn!

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 12:59
Who else gets psychic squads? Grey knights!

For reference.
AP3 bolters... 1 or 2 shots 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 4+ cover saves... each shooter does 11/54 wounds at over 12", or 22/54 at under 12".
Psybolt stormbolters... 2 shots, 2/3 hit, 2/3 wound, 3+ armour saves ....each shooter has a 16/54 chance of inflicting a wound at 0-24, whilst moving if wished"

Who says the purifiers are in cover, you're using very specific circumstances and tailoring things to favour your argument! An AP3 bolter kills a purifier, a storm bolter does a wound against a thousand son which he then has a save against!

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 13:05
It just irks me that nobody seems to care that for example for about the same points cost as a venerable dred with 2 auto-cannons you can get a scouting gunship which can transport vets with 4 melta guns at about the same price!

That is because you can't.
A vendetta or valkyrie is 130 pts normally. The veterans with 3( not 4, that isn't legal) meltas is another 100, so you're on 230...

And cover is everywhere in 5th ed. Assuming people are in it is not at all unreasonable..

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 13:12
ok so 3 meltas instead of 4, you're picking on semantics here. A ven dread with 2 auto-cannons is 195 points! and it doesn't scout, fly, have twin-linked lascannons or a squad with melta guns for 35 points difference!

I agree there is lots of cover but if you're going to assume cover for the grey knights then the reverse applies to the thousand sons so they will both get cover saves.

Bunnahabhain
08-05-2012, 13:25
I was. I was just assuming they were not in a 2+ cover save feature, so they'd take their 3+ armour saves, just like the rules say they must.....

Carnage
08-05-2012, 13:30
I agree there is lots of cover but if you're going to assume cover for the grey knights then the reverse applies to the thousand sons so they will both get cover saves.

Sure, but 1ksons don't benefit from cover since they already have a 4++ built into themselves. You are basically paying what, 8 points over a regular marine(?) for relentless and -1 to your opponent's MeQ armour saves, and no bonus to 4+ or worse saves. That's crap, and largely why 1ksons are regarded as gimped in 5th edition.

Sureshot05
08-05-2012, 13:41
not to mention that each TS is 1 point less than a purifier, but the squad leader is 60 points, before you add Psychic powers, and that they always strike at Initiative 1.

Kevlar
08-05-2012, 13:43
Ok my apologies I was off by one attack. As stated multiple times I wouldn't be charging purifiers with another elite unit. I would shoot the hell out of them. Then if there were 0-2 halberds left then charge if I absolutely had to!

The problem with that is their psycannons, and their attached psybolt razorback. Not only do they out-melee you, they outshoot you too.

Latro_
08-05-2012, 13:45
lol when was the last time anyone use thousand sons anyway!!! you might as well say yea... vespid ap3 to derp kill a3 derp

Rated_lexxx
08-05-2012, 16:01
What, every time? Most of the time? Sometimes? Or just that one time? It seems highly unlikeley to me that all Grey Knight players come up with similair lists that require a special character, even though special characters are usually "not done" in local clubs.

I am not sure what local clubs your talking about. Almost every game I play in there is a special characters involved...God ghazkull how do I love you

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 16:13
I think one of the problems with GKs is that their supposed weaknesses only come into play against specific armies.

For example, one of the main weaknesses of GKs is "They're no tougher than marines - just shoot them to death."

Now, for armies like DE and IG, this is fine. They can put out an immense amount of firepower, and can shoot GK squads off the table with little difficulty. Furthermore, whilst those GK squads are paying for force weapons, against the squishy DE/Ig troops, they're actually worth very little.

Now take Tyranids. We have very few squads that can even match GK firepower - let alone win in a firefight. So, we usually have to resort to combat. And here's where the "They're no tougher than marines" advice falls apart. They're no tougher than marines against shooting, but (unlike marines) they can also have I6 force weapons, and psychic powers that obliterate hordes before they get to swing. Furthermore, you know how GKs pay for those expensive force weapons, which they can't use against DE, IG, etc.? Well, guess how much nids pay for their 6-wound MCs (with no EW or invulnerable saves, naturally). And guess how much use most of them are against GKs. Even a lot of our supposedly-fast units, like homogants, can't match the speed of GKs. This just isn't right - marines shouldn't have access to that sort of initiative, let alone with force-weapons.

Anyway, my point is, I think GKs are unbalanced because their weaknesses only come into play against certain armies. In addition, the armies that have the most difficulty exploiting GK weaknesses (Daemons, nids) are also the ones that GKs are most efficient against.

Dreadlordpaul
08-05-2012, 16:34
lol when was the last time anyone use thousand sons anyway!!! you might as well say yea... vespid ap3 to derp kill a3 derp

I know someone who does? Also i think they are VERY underated along with noise marines.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-05-2012, 16:52
Now take Tyranids. We have very few squads that can even match GK firepower - let alone win in a firefight. So, we usually have to resort to combat.I would put that vice-versa. 'Nids have little that can match GK's in close combat, let alone win decisively after wading through fire to get there. But Tyranids can win firefights, the devourer gaunt can out-dakka even shoota boyz (although shoota boyz are a lot tougher and better in close combat) and hive guard are decent at de-mech'ing.

enygma7
08-05-2012, 17:06
I think one of the problems with GKs is that their supposed weaknesses only come into play against specific armies.

For example, one of the main weaknesses of GKs is "They're no tougher than marines - just shoot them to death."

Now, for armies like DE and IG, this is fine. They can put out an immense amount of firepower, and can shoot GK squads off the table with little difficulty. Furthermore, whilst those GK squads are paying for force weapons, against the squishy DE/Ig troops, they're actually worth very little.

Now take Tyranids.

...

Anyway, my point is, I think GKs are unbalanced because their weaknesses only come into play against certain armies. In addition, the armies that have the most difficulty exploiting GK weaknesses (Daemons, nids) are also the ones that GKs are most efficient against.

I wanted to highlight this and quote it for truth. Sure, you can beat Grey Knights, as long as your using an army that can outshoot them. You need access to plenty of anti-marine firepower and the resilience/range to cut down on return casualties. If you are playing an army that doesn't have this (like nids and I suspect most ork lists) then it sucks to be you.

I don't think many of the people who play grey knights help the armies reputation. I've noticed a far higher proportion of grey knight players are using ultra-competetive netlists than players of other armies. I think this is partly because the power of the army attracts competetive players, but I think it helps that grey knight netlists (purifier spam, draigowing) have a very low model count which makes them easier to collect and paint for a tournament. Most people want to use their armies in casual games too, so unless they play in a competetive environment they often won't go out and buy/paint the elements needed to optimise their army for tournaments. Also, possibly the stigma attached to grey knights drives away people who are bothered about the perceptions of others.


I would put that vice-versa. 'Nids have little that can match GK's in close combat, let alone win decisively after wading through fire to get there. But Tyranids can win firefights, the devourer gaunt can out-dakka even shoota boyz (although shoota boyz are a lot tougher and better in close combat) and hive guard are decent at de-mech'ing.

True as far as it goes. Both devourer gaunts and hive guard are very good shooters, but most nid armies only have so many of them and are primarily CC focused. I came up against purifier spam in a tourni recently and my devourer gaunts and hive guard pretty much went down to the first round of firing forcing me to resort to CC. Even if you made an army based around them nids just don't have the resilience and range to compete in an attrition shooting match with an entire grey knights army.

sycopat
08-05-2012, 17:08
I think one of the problems with GKs is that their supposed weaknesses only come into play against specific armies.



This is a very good point that bears repeating.

There is a lot of 'it's easy to kill this army in a specific way which only some armies have access to'.

For most armies, 40k is more complex than rock paper scissors. For grey knights, it's playing rock in a sea of scissors with hardly any paper. (almost anyway, they are not unbeatable: just too forgiving.)

GrogDaTyrant
08-05-2012, 17:19
But Tyranids can(although shoota boyz are a lot tougher and better in close combat)

Shootas have +1 toughness over devourer gaunts, and -1 to their armor save. Their extra attack in close combat and WS 4 with Furious Charge is what makes them "above average", but does not make them tougher. Those Gaunts are statistically just as resilient in hand to hand combat against non-powered CC attacks of up to Str 6, but are offset by the fact that the base average WS of the game is a 4.

Anyways, Devourer Gaunts are also 10ptsą a model... Which is a tad pricey, but worth it IMHO.

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 17:33
Shootas have +1 toughness over devourer gaunts, and -1 to their armor save.

:confused:

Shoota boys have a 6+ save. Gaunts have a 6+ save. Where is this -1 coming from?

Furthermore, in addition to the fact that T4 gives them much more survivability than T3, WS4 (as opposed to WS3 for devilgants) means that other WS4 opponents (like, virtually all marines) will get fewer hits against them in combat.

So, yeah, they are tougher than devilgants - especialy since a devilgant is almost twice as much as a shoota boy.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-05-2012, 18:54
I tend to couch all my judgments in "per point" terms. I.e., when I say shoota boyz are much tougher than devourer gaunts, I mean 5 shoota boyz are much tougher than 3 devourer gaunts.

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 19:00
I tend to couch all my judgments in "per point" terms. I.e., when I say shoota boyz are much tougher than devourer gaunts, I mean 5 shoota boyz are much tougher than 3 devourer gaunts.

On the same basis, surely devilgants don't really out-shoot shoota boyz then?

I mean, consider a firefight between 120pts of shoota boyz (20 boyz), and 120pts of devilgants (12 gaunts). If the shoota boyz get to shoot first, then they'll slaughter the gants in 2 turns of shooting, taking very minor casualties. On the other hand, if the gants shoot first, it would last for several rounds and be relatively even.

Kevlar
08-05-2012, 19:03
Now, for armies like DE and IG, this is fine. They can put out an immense amount of firepower, and can shoot GK squads off the table with little difficulty. Furthermore, whilst those GK squads are paying for force weapons, against the squishy DE/Ig troops, they're actually worth very little.


Not even IG or DE can outshoot the GK razor/chimer spam list though. You have a couple squads of purifiers to handle hordes/assault, then just spam psybacks/chimeras and psyrifle dreads.

Sureshot05
08-05-2012, 19:08
I think the discussion also needs to include that most of those I know feel the background was spoiled or ruined. Gone are the noble men who resisted Chaos at every turn, instead we just have men who are immune to chaos through a magic gift. As such, i've found it rare you find a player who likes the army because of the background or feels inspired by it. I think this plays into the reasons for why many "have a beef" with grey knights. Including myself, I've known three old grey knight players who stopped with the army because it was no longer the same army (in terms of soul) as it once was.

I feel the codex made three key mistakes, which has made it like Daemons of 7th Ed Warhammer.

1 - Poorly balanced army list
2 - Badly written background

And lastly, because it's key to the codex's nature
3 - Completely terrible balance against their arch foes, the daemons,

1 & 2 have been debated well above and, by now, most players will have an opinion on this one way or another, but I think 3 was a final and worst sin in the book. If I see grey knights hit the table, and I see daemons, it should be an inspiring game which makes you want to play the arch type battle. Instead, the daemon player is far more likely to just pack up and move on. The previous book did this brilliantly by allowing daemons a few extra abilities to make the game both exciting and balanced. The current screams of lazy design. "Grey knights are excellent against daemons, of course they'll win" is not an acceptable reason when both players generally want to have a fun game and feel like they have a chance.

Personally, I hope that the next version in a few years time, is revisited and redone more in touch with the original idea. Such a thing might encourage me to dig mine out of their case and bring them back to the table.

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 19:22
Not even IG or DE can outshoot the GK razor/chimer spam list though. You have a couple squads of purifiers to handle hordes/assault, then just spam psybacks/chimeras and psyrifle dreads.

Really?

Usually on these threads, you get a lot of DE/IG players saying that they have no problem wiping GK off the board.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that the above is what I usually hear.



And lastly, because it's key to the codex's nature
3 - Completely terrible balance against their arch foes, the daemons,

1 & 2 have been debated well above and, by now, most players will have an opinion on this one way or another, but I think 3 was a final and worst sin in the book. If I see grey knights hit the table, and I see daemons, it should be an inspiring game which makes you want to play the arch type battle. Instead, the daemon player is far more likely to just pack up and move on.

Whilst I think GK vs Nids is an equally terrible matchup, I agree that this is inded sad. If GKs do beat their immortal enemies, it should be a hard-fought battle. Seeing GKs wipe out legions of daemons without suffering a scratch is just dull.

wyvirn
08-05-2012, 19:31
I disagree. If a I'm going to call myself a chair hunter and the one thing I do is hunt chairs, I'm damn sure I bring every anti-chair technology and strategy I have. GK should wipe the floor with demons. However, that makes for a very boring game. I really like the way the Daemon hunters codex dealt with this, by letting them spawn ad infinitum. That way they have a fighting chance,and lets the GK get their killing on.

Scribe of Khorne
08-05-2012, 19:48
RE: DE vs GK, it depends on the lists. Chimera spam will give DE problems, for the same reason IG can give DE problems. Paladin spam shouldnt give DE issues if they brought lances/blasters as most do. Rock/Paper/Scissors.

GrogDaTyrant
08-05-2012, 19:54
:confused:

Gaunts have a 6+ save. Where is this -1 coming from?

Meh, my mistake then. I always assumed they had a 5+. I must have been thinking of something else.

In any case a T4 and a WS 4 do not make something "a lot" tougher than if it was T3 and WS 2 or 3. It is of course an increase in survivability against the medium average of the game, for sure. But by no means is it "a lot". Shootas (and most especially Choppa/Sluggas) are every bit as much of cannon-fodder in CC these days, as Gaunts. What carries them through is their slightly above average combat performance.


On the topic about equal points of Devilgaunts compared to equal points of Shootas, the problem with that match up is that Shootas are stupidly underpriced. Indeed Shoota Boyz *should* be roughly 8 points, IMHO. At 8 pts a model, the damage output of a unit of Shootas per turn becomes *slightly* less than equal points of Devilgaunts, and other 18" Assault -x- bog-standard infantry (i.e. Guardians, and Dire Avengers). That reduced ranged damage output would then be made up for the above medium-average combat ability. As they are now, 6pt shootas is bargain-bin pricing.

RunepriestRidcully
08-05-2012, 19:58
I think the discussion also needs to include that most of those I know feel the background was spoiled or ruined. Gone are the noble men who resisted Chaos at every turn, instead we just have men who are immune to chaos through a magic gift. As such, i've found it rare you find a player who likes the army because of the background or feels inspired by it. I think this plays into the reasons for why many "have a beef" with grey knights. Including myself, I've known three old grey knight players who stopped with the army because it was no longer the same army (in terms of soul) as it once was.

That there is why for now, my Grey knights sleep, they are quite simple not the army I started with them, as such in my mind I keep with the old codex yet the situation has meant I am using my Eldar and Thousand sons more (And I am dreading the updates for both now if Ward get's his hands on them after what he did to the Grey knights).
I'm finding 40k is now more and more becoming a generic science fiction with lots of combat in with Saturday morning cartoon characters thanks to ward's writing.
On everyone saying AP3 bolters are really good at taking down marines, with S4, most of the time they are not wounding in high enough numbers for it to be truly as terrible as people think, yes we can occasionally gun down a whole tactical squad, but that is only when you have sorceres using wind of chaos on a tightly packed squad followed by 9+rubrics double firing.

Sami
08-05-2012, 20:04
As DE, I would rather face Razorspam than Chimspam, simply because passengers can't shoot out of the RB (meaning they either don't shoot at all or deploy in the table and eat Venoms) and critically, the Razorback has lower front armour, meaning we pen on a 4+ rather than a 5+.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-05-2012, 20:17
On the same basis, surely devilgants don't really out-shoot shoota boyz then?

I mean, consider a firefight between 120pts of shoota boyz (20 boyz), and 120pts of devilgants (12 gaunts).The shoota boyz have the edge head-to-head, but the reason they have an edge is that their advantage in toughness is larger than the d-gaunt's advantage in firepower. In S4-hits-per-point, the devourer gaunts are 35% ahead. I tried to summarize that in my off-hand post, but apparently I failed miserably and engendered far more confusion than enlightenment. Oh, well.


Usually on these threads, you get a lot of DE/IG players saying that they have no problem wiping GK off the board.More like a lot of GK players complaining that DE/IG have no problem wiping them off the board. :p My Dark Eldar have gotten their teeth kicked in by razor/psyfile spam GK's.


If GKs do beat their immortal enemies, it should be a hard-fought battle. Seeing GKs wipe out legions of daemons without suffering a scratch is just dull.I've seen daemons do pretty well against Grey Knights. Ironically, they're one of the only armies that can go toe-to-toe with GK's in close combat. If the Grey Knights are tooled up to fight daemons, the daemons have no hope, but a lot of GK players ditch Warp Quake for Purifers and/or Paladins, and seem to think they should get stuck in rather than retreating as fast as their storm bolters will let them.

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 20:47
The shoota boyz have the edge head-to-head, but the reason they have an edge is that their advantage in toughness is larger than the d-gaunt's advantage in firepower. In S4-hits-per-point, the devourer gaunts are 35% ahead. I tried to summarize that in my off-hand post, but apparently I failed miserably and engendered far more confusion than enlightenment. Oh, well.

I see what you mean, but I still think a unit's defenses have to be taken into account. With just 18" range, you can hardly count on devilgants being far enough away to avoid return fire.

I understand that, in an actual game, you'd probably use a screening squad, a tervigon (for FNP) or somesuch. However, in that case, I think the tervigon/screening-squad would need to be added to the devilgant's point cost in these comparisons.

DeviantApostle
08-05-2012, 21:01
Really?

Usually on these threads, you get a lot of DE/IG players saying that they have no problem wiping GK off the board.

I'm not saying you're wrong - just that the above is what I usually hear.

You'd never hear me say that. The issue with DE vs. GK are Stormbolters, if they have psybolt ammo it's even worse. 10 S5 shots vs. AV10 is nasty, statistically that's 2 pens and 1 glance at 24", flickerfields are nice but not that reliable. On top of that, our infantry are weak to the stormbolters too. That's not counting the Psyriflemen or other things... like the Land Raider Crusader with psybolt I faced in a friendly.

Again, not an impossible match-up but getting the first turn is usually critical.

To those talking about 1K Sons: Everything is better than 1K Sons, especially GK. I know they look flashy but everything in the GK codex is flat out better for more cost effectiveness.

El_Machinae
08-05-2012, 21:12
I would hope demons are well-balanced vs GKs! The GKs were designed to fight demons, so the designers should be able to balance those aspects!

Sami
08-05-2012, 21:27
I would hope demons are well-balanced vs GKs! The GKs were designed to fight demons, so the designers should be able to balance those aspects!

(some) Khorne daemons kick the crap out of GK in close combat, due to them getting a 2+ invul save against attacks caused by force weapons. Yes, really. Biggest issue they have is surviving the turn before they charge. Fortunately (ish), Flesh Hounds (the unit that can spam those 2+ saves) are Beasts so can get off 24" charges with good rolls. The biggest problem are Strike Squads messing up your DS, but fortunately (lol) they are rare compared to Paladins, Purifiers and Henchmen.

Nurgling Chieftain
08-05-2012, 21:27
I see what you mean...I don't think you do. You're fixated on shoota boyz vs. d-gaunts in response to a post about how best to fight Grey Knights with Tyranids. Actually bringing shoota boyz is not an option for either army. An ork army might battle Grey Knights with lootas and shoota boyz (and other stuff). The best a 'Nid is going to do is replace those with Hive Guard and d-gaunts (and other stuff). My point was never that 'nids are better than orks - they're clearly not. My point is that running at most competitive Grey Knight armies with Genestealers and Trygons - as effective as they are elsewhere - isn't going to work as well for Tyranids as going gun-to-gun with them.

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 21:33
The problem with that is their psycannons, and their attached psybolt razorback. Not only do they out-melee you, they outshoot you too.

Kevlar you do realise the unit you're talking about now is a shade under 250 points, and that 80 point razorback is pretty easy to blow up at range and then shoot the hell out of the purifiers!

Vipoid
08-05-2012, 21:34
I don't think you do. You're fixated on shoota boyz vs. d-gaunts in response to a post about how best to fight Grey Knights with Tyranids.

I'm not 'fixated' on that matchup, but it is a matchup you mentioned with regard to devilgants.

The reason I used shoota boyz was that I recalled doing the math before, and finding that shooter boys were better in a straight firefight - which was why I was a little perplexed when you said devilgants would out-shoot them.

I haven't done the maths for GKs (though I might have a go tomorrow), because I'm not sure what I should actually use for a 'standard' squad. I can't really argue for or against your point when I have no idea if, mathamatically speaking, you are correct.

I'm sure that devilgants have superior firepower, point for point, to GK squads, but I don't know if that means they'd actually beat them in a straight firefight (since GKs have better range, BS, toughness and armour).

Dazza612
08-05-2012, 21:43
Vipoid nids and orks will both struggle against grey knights, because one is a very old codex made for 5th edition and the other is just a crap codex. Grey knights was a very powerful codex designed for 6th. Having said that nids have hive guard which are very good at blowing up AV 13. They then have strength 5 pie plates and masses of strength 4 shooting. They then have very very cheap high initiative and FNP gaunts (everybody takes a tervigon) for combat to remove the dregs. You don't charge your MC's into a squad all armed with force weapons. You arm them with twin-linked devourers and shoot things!

Draconis
08-05-2012, 22:42
I disagree. If a I'm going to call myself a chair hunter and the one thing I do is hunt chairs, I'm damn sure I bring every anti-chair technology and strategy I have. GK should wipe the floor with demons. However, that makes for a very boring game. I really like the way the Daemon hunters codex dealt with this, by letting them spawn ad infinitum. That way they have a fighting chance,and lets the GK get their killing on.

So what your saying is then, when a daemon player goes to a tournie and gets paired up against a GK player (likely to happen with 25% of players playing GK) they should just shake hands and move on to the next match since its auto lose?

no, fluff wise, GK should wipe the floor with daemons, but daemons are eternal. They never stop. Game wise, it still needs to be balanced.

lordbeefy
08-05-2012, 22:43
While I have posted that I think the GK are fine, I really should clarify.

When they first came out i cried foul. I am a IG player long long time. So I play a few games versus GK, and for the majority, I utterly paste them long range with my firepower. But I look at them and think, they are a fun army, I am gonna give them a go for fun list.

My other army is BA. TBH I reckon they are a more overpowered army, with cc massive AND shootyness (is that a word?). I really think the GK hate is the hysterical reaction of people whose own one trick pony army have just been bumped from the number one slot in their list of gameplaying friends and they dont like it.....could just be me though.

The real end result is that next month there will be a new flavour of the month for the hate, and they will be receiving it. I say let them rant.

Draconis
08-05-2012, 22:47
While I have posted that I think the GK are fine, I really should clarify.

When they first came out i cried foul. I am a IG player long long time. So I play a few games versus GK, and for the majority, I utterly paste them long range with my firepower. But I look at them and think, they are a fun army, I am gonna give them a go for fun list.

My other army is BA. TBH I reckon they are a more overpowered army, with cc massive AND shootyness (is that a word?). I really think the GK hate is the hysterical reaction of people whose own one trick pony army have just been bumped from the number one slot in their list of gameplaying friends and they dont like it.....could just be me though.

The real end result is that next month there will be a new flavour of the month for the hate, and they will be receiving it. I say let them rant.

I'm so glad you think this, because none of my 3 armies can stand up to GK's because I dont play marines. My nid army is a joke compared to the every codex since its newest book. GK's were designed to kill us, SW's were designed to kill us, DE were given tons of firepower and better MC that ours. CSM just gets laughed at.

wyvirn
08-05-2012, 22:54
I never said that Daemons should autolose against GK. I said that GK should be specifically anti-daemon, but the daemon would get some massive boost to justify GK being there, and in game to balance out the GK innate advantage over them.

lordbeefy
08-05-2012, 22:55
I'm so glad you think this, because none of my 3 armies can stand up to GK's because I dont play marines. My nid army is a joke compared to the every codex since its newest book. GK's were designed to kill us, SW's were designed to kill us, DE were given tons of firepower and better MC that ours. CSM just gets laughed at.

I admit, I dont play nids, while i like their fluff, i do agree they are underpowered totally...particualrly given the fluff saying what a menace they pose.

My IG cut thru GKs, and my BA will hold their own in cc, but again have a lot of missiles and lascannosn to call on. DE are nasty and cut thru my IG if they get the initiative turn wise on me. I see it as everything having a counter...except nids, they just suck tbh.

lordbeefy
08-05-2012, 22:56
I'm so glad you think this, because none of my 3 armies can stand up to GK's because I dont play marines. My nid army is a joke compared to the every codex since its newest book. GK's were designed to kill us, SW's were designed to kill us, DE were given tons of firepower and better MC that ours. CSM just gets laughed at.

double post sorry.

:-)

Death Company
09-05-2012, 00:32
and my BA will hold their own in cc

What does, exactly?

Mind telling me, as a fellow Blood Angel player, what units you're using to "hold your own" in CC? I'm pretty curious.

Bergen Beerbelly
09-05-2012, 00:45
Grey Knights are not the most overpowered codex ever written. Look in the Space Wolf codex of 2nd edition.....Assult Cannon + Cyclone Missile Launcher can be put on every single Terminator...Look at Eldar 2nd edition...Howling Banshee's charge you and you get no return attacks...so they pretty much just kill you...Their vehicles move so fast you cannot hurt them, Warp spiders can jump shoot jump and have a template weapon that was super strong and auto killed almost everything it shot...and it was a big template.... The list of cheese goes on and on with Eldar from back then. They make the current Grey Knights codex look tame.


This thread makes me want to run my Squat army as a Grey Knight army simply because GW decided to remove them from the game...no better revenge then a counts as Grey Knights army with Squats :evilgrin:

The Red Pilgrim
09-05-2012, 01:36
What does, exactly?

Mind telling me, as a fellow Blood Angel player, what units you're using to "hold your own" in CC? I'm pretty curious.

I'm pretty sure he's just making that bit up. Even Death Company become meat-paste against Purifiers and Deathcult.


Grey Knights are not the most overpowered codex ever written. Look in the Space Wolf codex of 2nd edition.....Assult Cannon + Cyclone Missile Launcher can be put on every single Terminator...Look at Eldar 2nd edition...Howling Banshee's charge you and you get no return attacks...so they pretty much just kill you...Their vehicles move so fast you cannot hurt them, Warp spiders can jump shoot jump and have a template weapon that was super strong and auto killed almost everything it shot...and it was a big template.... The list of cheese goes on and on with Eldar from back then. They make the current Grey Knights codex look tame.

This point is a bit moot, considering said codices are no longer viable - aside from a friendly game with pals. I mean, I really don't think anyone is claiming it's the most overpowered book "ever"; we're simply saying that they have a significant edge over every codex out currently. Even against other top tier books, like Guard and Wolves.

I also think it's pretty poor form that the argument being put forth for the most part - peoples solution, if you will - is to drastically tailor your list just to fight Grey Knights, so that you're not tabled in a casual game. Boy, that sounds like a good time.

Bergen Beerbelly
09-05-2012, 02:00
@ the red pilgrim: It was in response to someone earlier in the thread claiming that the Grey Knight codex is the most broken codex that GW has ever made, which simply isn't true.

@everyone else: Using the tournament circuit as a way to say that the Grey Knight codex is overpowered doesn't really work for one very important reason (and this one reason irritates me to no end)...simply put...Warhammer 40,000 has never been written with the tournament circuit in mind. GW has said this from the start. They do not write any rules for any core rules system or codex for the tournament circuit at all.

The game is made for non-tournament envrionments. So if the way they write their codexes doesn't lend itself to balance for whatever tournament you are playing in and you are mad about that, then GW couldn't be happier. They don't want you playing their game in tournaments to begin with.

Now I'm not saying that they are right. I would prefer they did make the game for tournaments as well as non tournaments but they adamantly defend their position of the game not being geared in any way for tournaments.

So what this means is, they don't care if you are mad about how unbalanced any codex seems as long as you keep buying their game and paints and models. That's why they really write the rules...to get your money.

And as long as Matt Ward or any other author can continue to write codexes that make money they will continue to let him write them, regardless of how you feel.

Bergen Beerbelly
09-05-2012, 02:24
And I would like to point out that because this game is not designed for tournaments, and is designed for non tournament play, it is designed with the idea that you will know what army you will be facing and therefore, you SHOULD tailor your list to fight whoever you are facing.

That's one of the reasons Eldar are so difficult to play in tournaments. They are designed with the idea that you know who you will be facing. And in tournaments, you don't always know who you will face. But every other army is made the same way, just not to such extreme as the Eldar.

HalfBlood
09-05-2012, 02:31
Lets begin by saying this... Threads like these just become pointless. Everyone knows GK are overepowered, probably the best 40K codex currently. Now GK are not unbeatable, but they are extremely good and arguing over a forum is not going to weaken their codex by no means. Yes most of their units are underpriced to other comparable units in other codexes, yes most of their units do their job better then other comparable units in other codexes, but then you have to realize that no matter what we say, or what logical points we bring up it wont change the fact that GW will not change/nerf the GK codex any time soon. Hopefully next edition will nerf the codex, but then again who knows.


@MeltaWing
I find your arguments to be rather unsupportive, and extremely weak.

I also can kinda curious you claimed that people shouted that Necrons were OP? I have not heard no such thing...

Draconis
09-05-2012, 03:05
@ the red pilgrim: It was in response to someone earlier in the thread claiming that the Grey Knight codex is the most broken codex that GW has ever made, which simply isn't true.

@everyone else: Using the tournament circuit as a way to say that the Grey Knight codex is overpowered doesn't really work for one very important reason (and this one reason irritates me to no end)...simply put...Warhammer 40,000 has never been written with the tournament circuit in mind. GW has said this from the start. They do not write any rules for any core rules system or codex for the tournament circuit at all.

The game is made for non-tournament envrionments. So if the way they write their codexes doesn't lend itself to balance for whatever tournament you are playing in and you are mad about that, then GW couldn't be happier. They don't want you playing their game in tournaments to begin with.

Now I'm not saying that they are right. I would prefer they did make the game for tournaments as well as non tournaments but they adamantly defend their position of the game not being geared in any way for tournaments.

So what this means is, they don't care if you are mad about how unbalanced any codex seems as long as you keep buying their game and paints and models. That's why they really write the rules...to get your money.

And as long as Matt Ward or any other author can continue to write codexes that make money they will continue to let him write them, regardless of how you feel.


How fail is that logic? They dont want you to play in their tournies? Tournie players make up the majority of their money. And before you argue, think about how many band jumpers there are for every codex, looking for the newest edge. Also, if they didnt want you to play in any tournies, then why do they host them?

Dazza612
09-05-2012, 03:21
What does, exactly?

Mind telling me, as a fellow Blood Angel player, what units you're using to "hold your own" in CC? I'm pretty curious.

Well a 10 man assault marine backed up by a priest with two melta guns and a power fist. You shoot the them then if there are only a couple of halberds you charge. Charging a maxed out purifier squad with 6-7 halberds is not recommended but as I have said previously don't engage purifiers, shoot them. If you're playing BA correctly you should have about 7-8 melta type weapons in your army (weath it's melta guns, multi-meltas or infernus pistols). Remember with your furious charge only their halberds will be going before you, you strike before everybody else and wound them on 3's and you have 3 attacks on the charge and a your sgt has a power fist! Vanguard and honour guard with storm shields also do quite nicely or assault terminators with furious charge and feel no pain. But far far better to shoot them than assault them. Strike squads only have one attack each, it's the pallies which you have to worry about and that's where your melta comes in or dev squads.

Dazza612
09-05-2012, 03:25
Actually Draconis I think you'll find that most of GW's revenue comes from parents buying stuff for their kids in the early stages who buy a starter set, a battalion and bits and pieces. Most people in the tournie scene have one or two armies they like and have worked out how to win with and keep using those armies. The band jumpers tend to be people looking for the newest shiny thing to win with, as most of the stuff that's new competitive gamers don't buy as they're overrated for their points cost, like the dreadknight or stormraven! The basic stuff is usually what wins games.

IrishDelinquent
09-05-2012, 03:53
While pretty much every point I'm about to make has been stated already, I still feel like joining the discussion. The major problem I find with Grey Knights (aside from utterly horrendous fluff) is that their basic units are pretty much designed to be take-on-all-comer units. As an example, let's look at two other units; the Tactical Marine and the Genestealer.

The Tactical Marine squad, per history throughout the game and the fluff, is equipped and designed to be a jack-of-all-trades unit. The basic marine has a relatively impressive stat line, and is equipped with a fairly powerful ranged weapon. The basic marine is primarily designed for anti-infantry shooting, but they come equipped with options for a variety of situations. The Special weapon issued to each squad can either add weight of fire (pardon the Flamer pun) to the anti-infantry shooting at the expense of versatility, or can be more appropriate for dealing with heavy infantry or vehicles. The Heavy weapon issued to squads allows for more weight of fire to be added to the squad's damage output, or to target something that the rest of the squad can't damage. The Tactical Squad is equipped to deal with infantry primarily, but has a couple of options for taking on a more immediate threat if needed. The special and heavy weapon can be used against infantry, but often find their power wasted.

The Genestealer brood is a unit with a more focused purpose. Genestealers are strictly effective in close-combat. This is a factor that is often referred to as the Genestealer Paradigm; Genestealers excel heavily in one area, but are ineffective/useless in others. Specialized units such as Genestealers add a certain risk factor to unit selection. Against certain armies, the high-strength rending attacks of the Genestealers will allow them to terrorize your opponent and recoup their cost. Against others, the models are useless; whether the opponent can outfight the Genestealers, prevent them from getting into combat, or overwhelm them with a horde, Genestealers in a sub-optimal position are not beneficial to your army list.

Why do I mention these things? Because this forms one of the major flaws with the Grey Knights; their jack-of-all-trades units are better than 95% of all other jack-of-all-trades units, and can often beat specialists in their area of expertise. Take the oft-maligned Purifiers as an example; a take-on-all-comers squad of Purifiers will put out a substantial amount of anti-infantry firepower, much like a tactical squad. However, their special weaponry is effective against multiple target types. The Psycannon has a high enough yield of shots to threaten hordes, is strong enough to threaten tougher models, and the ability to rend threatens both vehicles and heavy infantry. Aside from medium and better vehicles, the squad can still be effective against all other unit types in range. In combat, the Purifiers have two very powerful psychic abilities to enhance or increase their damage potential, and multiple types of close combat weapons with which to threaten a variety of enemies. When you can take four psycannons, a daemon hammer to deal with tough threats, and still have 5 models striking at initiative 6, it is a very intimidating unit to deal with.

This leads to the real beef with Grey Knights; they are an easy list to work with. When you can use take-on-all-comers units that rival the capabilities of specialist units in your opponent's army, you have to rely on fewer specialist units yourself. When your units have so few weaknesses to worry about, it becomes easier and cheaper to counter those weaknesses. The Purifiers are vulnerable to massed AP3 firepower, which is why they are almost always riding around in a transport. This allows the Grey Knight player to focus on other matters, rather than worrying about the vulnerability of the Purifiers.

This leads to a second issue with Grey Knights; ease of play. Often referred to as an "auto-pilot" army in my gaming circle, armies list of this type often don't require a great deal of player skill to succeed. With Grey Knights, weaker players can take a list which has a lesser chance of poor strategy affecting outcome. Grey Knights are an army that is very forgiving to mistakes, and very easy to get into. This also means that more skilled players can experiment with new lists, or take a more "toned-down" list, and still be a major threat. At a league my local game store was running, a Grey Knight player took a list without any of the special characters that make different units troops (he did take Mordrak). Other than 3 Psyfleman Dreads, nothing in the list was too overpowered. He only had a few psycannons on the table, and only one squad of purifiers. He didn't lose a single game. In fact, none of his games were close. Admittedly, he is a very skilled player, and so was able to make smart use of target priority. I faced him in the round robin play, and then later in the semi-finals of the league. In the semi-final game, he openly advised me on deployment and strategy, and remarked he was helping me because he wanted "a challenge for once".

The Grey Knights are often begrudged because of the power of the book, and the army's difficulty curve. The fact that players on here have admitted to, or advised, points handicaps to make the match fair should be a good indication of some of the problems with the book.

One last comment regarding the issue of Grey Knights vs. Daemons. In the fluff, the Grey Knights are the ultimate weapon the Imperium has against the hordes of the daemons. However, they are a thin grey line against an unrelenting horde. In past editions of the book, the Grey Knights had tools and abilities designed to combat the Daemons.....but they also had special rules to reflect the degree of threat required for the Grey Knights to be summoned. Daemons didn't risk dying instantly simply by deploying, and when killed lesser daemons were allowed to be deployed again, representing their greater numbers. In the new book, the Grey Knights still have a lot of tools and abilities to combat the Daemons, but none of the balancing factors to represent a greater Daemonic threat.

Bergen Beerbelly
09-05-2012, 05:08
@ Draconis: No, actually the Tournament players do not make up the majority of their money. Children with parents that have deep pockets do. GW has been marketing this game to 14 year olds for years now and that hasn't changed. They get them to buy a starter set, a paint set, and a batallion box. Then they try to sell them anything else they can.

That's their target market and it's been working for years now.

You don't honestly believe that the tournament goers are the ones putting millions in GW's pockets do you? Sure, they contribute some but most tournament players have their armies already and won't buy more from GW unless it's competitive in the tournament scene. That doesn't amount to millions upon millions of dollars per year.

But selling to their target market does.

GW stopped doing Ard boyz tournaments in America recently. If tournament goers were their revenue makers as you assert, why would they do this? Jervis Johnson, the head tournament organizer for GW has made public statements too many times to count in both White Dwarf magazine, online, and in Citadel Journal that GW does not write rules for tournament play. The game isn't designed for that.

The reason they support some tournaments is this...because they are trying to promote the hobby in it's many many forms...tournaments being one of those forms. They promote the hobby in other ways too like world wide campaigns. By painting competitions. By video games. By producing a hobby magazine...and it's all done for one reason...to generate revenue.

My origional statements are true, wether you choose to believe them or not doesn't make them any less true. It is in no way a failed logic. It's actually spot on.

Swope
09-05-2012, 05:20
They are Grey Knights they are suppose to be OP!
:D ..... :shifty:

Dazza612
09-05-2012, 08:14
And while nobody has replied to my earlier question about space wolf long fang spam or mech guard being as nasty as grey knights, here is an example of an 1,850 list a friend is taking to a tournament and that's at 1,850 points. I think this would smash most grey knight armies, well and truly.

Company Command/4 plasma/chimera

6x psyker
6x psyker
Marbo

Vets/3 melta/chimera
Vets/3 melta/chimera
Vets/3 melta/chimera

Platoon command/3 melta/chimera

Squad/autocannon/commissar
Squad/autocannon
Squad/autocannon

SWS x3 melta
SWS x3 melta

Vendetta
Vendetta

Hydra
Hydra
Manticore

HRM
09-05-2012, 09:26
The beef with Grey Knights is the same beef people have with, for the most part, the majority of Marine armies... They're too easy to win with.

Grimtuff
09-05-2012, 09:30
The beef with Grey Knights is the same beef people have with, for the most part, the majority of Marine armies... They're too easy to win with.

But SM's are not "easy to win with". They have a very shallow learning curve but are difficult to master. Many a seasoned player will be able to destroy a SM army with ease.

orkmiester
09-05-2012, 09:41
And while nobody has replied to my earlier question about space wolf long fang spam or mech guard being as nasty as grey knights, here is an example of an 1,850 list a friend is taking to a tournament and that's at 1,850 points. I think this would smash most grey knight armies, well and truly.

Company Command/4 plasma/chimera

6x psyker
6x psyker
Marbo

Vets/3 melta/chimera
Vets/3 melta/chimera
Vets/3 melta/chimera

Platoon command/3 melta/chimera

Squad/autocannon/commissar
Squad/autocannon
Squad/autocannon

SWS x3 melta
SWS x3 melta

Vendetta
Vendetta

Hydra
Hydra
Manticore


I'm happily inclined to agree here...

firstly i'll state the armies i play before entering the fray... GK,SW,DE and chaos....

Guard are the biggest pain in the backside to deal with, their alpha strike abilites etc are 'worse' than GK in my opinion. The biggets 'hack off' is those vendettas, they are a little too powerful in my opinion- you are screwed if they go first or second since they are able to outflank as well as scout. Its a strategic situation were the ig hold all the cards really, they really need a big rise in points etc (Please be aware that what has been said previously is my personal opinion only...).

SW etc will casue GK problems, but not to the extent of mech guard. And since the numbers difference isn't too great, it allows the power of the GK to show a little more, and that is where the 'beef' is, given the right situation GK will outfight other space marines with at times disgusting ease.

But all this dosen't hide the fact that people pre-judge GK before they even face them on the table, overall a lot of it boils down to certain units etc which are 'very good' for their cost, yet it partly makes up for the small numbers on the table. Sticking your head in the sand won't do any good, play against them and then make a jugement.

just my humble opinion

Vipoid
09-05-2012, 10:02
Vipoid nids and orks will both struggle against grey knights, because one is a very old codex made for 5th edition and the other is just a crap codex.

So why did GKs need so much stuff that specifically hurts orks and nids?


Grey knights was a very powerful codex designed for 6th.

Please don't spout crap like "it was designed for 6th edition" unless you can back it up with actual evidence.

Unless you're saying that Mat Ward is so lost in his wolrd of fanboy marines that he has no idea which edition he's writing for, then it sems reasonable to assume that a codex released in 5th edition was designed (and this may blow your mind) for 5th edition.


They then have strength 5 pie plates and masses of strength 4 shooting. They then have very very cheap high initiative and FNP gaunts (everybody takes a tervigon) for combat to remove the dregs.

Actually, compared to GK halberds, we get very little in the way of cheap high-initiative, and most of our "high initiative" is 5, which is useless against halberds. Furthermore, against purifiers, we could have I10, and clensing flame would still strike first.


You don't charge your MC's into a squad all armed with force weapons. You arm them with twin-linked devourers and shoot things!

Well, by "all" I assume you mean the 2/11 MCs that can actually have TL-devourers.

Again, this might blow your mind, but I do actually play armies outside of GKs. And, shockingly, I sometimes use MCs like Trygons, which are meant purely for CC (amazing as this sounds, not all races come with force weapons on their basic troops to deal with such things).

Considering that I don't like tailoring my list, it's not unreasonable to assume that some of my MCs might actually be CC ones. Therefore, advising me to equip them with the TL-devourers that they can't have, and saying 'don't charge them into combat - just let them mill around and get shot to death' is far less helpful then you presumably think it is.

Getz
09-05-2012, 10:46
You don't charge your MC's into a squad all armed with force weapons. You arm them with twin-linked devourers and shoot things!

this is something that keeps getting repeated, but doesn't address a very simple point - what if the GK player charges you?

I'm pretty certain that any codex can beat GKs if the GK units just passively sit there and let you have your way with them - but what if they advance on you, use cover, prioritise shooting on your most threatening units or do any of the other things that an army on the tabletop does to maximise it's advantages while minimising yours. How exactly is a TMC supposed to keep itself from being assaulted by a unit of GKs (especially Interceptors) if the GK player is intent on closing with it? you can't keep running away forever, you eventually run out of table.

Vipoid
09-05-2012, 11:44
this is something that keeps getting repeated, but doesn't address a very simple point - what if the GK player charges you?

I'm pretty certain that any codex can beat GKs if the GK units just passively sit there and let you have your way with them - but what if they advance on you, use cover, prioritise shooting on your most threatening units or do any of the other things that an army on the tabletop does to maximise it's advantages while minimising yours. How exactly is a TMC supposed to keep itself from being assaulted by a unit of GKs (especially Interceptors) if the GK player is intent on closing with it? you can't keep running away forever, you eventually run out of table.

I think this is an excellent point.

I'd also like to expand on this notion of tyranid players just not charging their MCs at Gks. Ok, let's say I have 2 Trygons with Adrenal Glands in my army (2 seems reasonable, since tyranid armies generally favour redundancy). If I'm not allowed to charge GKs with them... what exactly should they be doing? :confused:

In most other armies, there are certain units which my trygons would avoid - for example, TH/SS squads in SM armies. In that case, they'd just charge different units, whilst I sent gribblies after the terminators. However, here's the thing with GKs - they have no 'safe' squads. They have nothing on the lones of tactical marines, which can maybe threaten a couple of PF attacks at most. *Every* squad wil have force weapons, and most will have halberds. So, you suddenly have a real chance of losing your 210pt-MC, before it gets to swing. But don't worry - I'm sure 6 S5 shots at BS5 will easily outshoot all those psycannons and psybolt-autocannons. :eyebrows:

My point is, Trygons pay a lot of points to be good in combat and for their 6 wounds and 3+ save - none of which work against GKs.

Furthermore, it's not like nid players can afford to have points sitting idle when playing against GKs. I mean, one of their supposed weaknesses is that, whilst they are undercosted for all the stuff they get, it won't always be useful. Except that, against tyranids, it *is* all useful:

Anti-psyker wargear - Check! Nids have pleanty of psykers, and psyk-out grenades can cripple the ability of a hive tyrant or swarmlord to fight back.

High initiative weapons - Check! Even though nids rely on striking first, they have very few units that can match the I6 of GK halberds - let alone get I6 every round of combat.

Storm Bolters - Check! We have very few weapons that reach 24", so they'll be shoting first (and can always assault afterwards), and storm bolters can tear through our hordes.

Psycannons and psybolt ammo - Check! - Psybolt ammo makes storm bolters even better at chewing through our hordes, and even allows them a reasonable chance of wounding our MCs. Psycannons can easily rend/wound our MCs, and have a high enough rate of fire to be effective against hordes too.


Force Weapons - Double Check! - out of the 34 units in the nid codex, 28 are multi-wound models, and of those just 3 have invulnerable saves (including 2 SCs), and none have EW. Furthermore, our MCs pay a *lot* for having 6 wounds, which become completely useless against force-weapons.

Warp Quake - Check! We have pleanty of stuff that deep-strikes, and so this power can really cripple any reserve-based armies.

Clensing Flame - Check! Do I even need to go into this power?

Quicksilver - Check! Same as halberds.

Sanctuary - Check! Oh goody - we have to assault a squad through terrain that now counts as both difficult and dangerous, and we have no grenades. Well this seems perfectly fair.

Rad Grenades - Well I'm so glad my MCs pay for that T6, so that S4 marines need 6s to wound them. Oh... wait...

Psychotroke Grenades - Becase 15 points for a 1/3 chance of instantly winning combat against anything is just so much fun. :eyebrows:


Anyway, the point I'm trying ot make is that the GK disadvantage of 'paying lots for each model' doesn't really come into play when those models are still undercosted for what they bring, and when everything they bring is incredibly useful against nids.

That's my problem with GKs. I respect that they're more balanced against most of the newer armies (although I understand people have differing opinions over exactly how balanced they are), but please understand that playing an army where every list feels as though it was tailored against yours just isn't fun.

Now, I'm fully aware of the problems with the nid codex. But, in that case, did GKs really need so much stuff that hurts tyranids more than any other army?

Shadow Lord
09-05-2012, 12:03
First of all: I find that both sides of the discussion are equally right in their discours...people tend to speak from personal experiences/points of view and can't be catalogued as wrong/right...but just as being personal opinions.;)
Second: Me, personally, have a beef with every single codex that came out since Codex: IG...too many "point and click" armies have ruined the scene for me. Be it IG, SM, SW or BA's...they've all been written poorly and pretty unbalanced. I've told many gamers in our LGC that there are too many good guys on the board and not enough bad guys.I play CSM and the only armies I've faced constantly are Space Marines Armies and some IG...I've played them all and have lost more games since the release of the C:SM codex then before.:cries: (main reason being: I'm not playing a dual Lash prince with Zerkers/DG...but a normal unmarked Chaos Space Marine army...as I've played them for 10 years now).
Lastly: If the normal SW/BA army is extremly powerful and the IG are nigh invincible...when writing the new GK codex, how do you make them the best of the best? By giving them access to the best of the best at a - relative - small point cost and you make them hard against all armies. Against which armies do they struggle? Against tailored armies and against SW/IG armies (that are allready very powerfull to begin with).:p

Conclusion: do the GK's deserve to be outcasts of the 40k universe because of their codex? Nope, but I do hope that when the new Chaos Codex hits the stores I can find a thread that starts with "Why do you have a beef with the new Chaos Codex?" because it would mean that we - again - got a Codex worthy of our legacy as the game's umtimate enemy...;)

Geep
09-05-2012, 13:14
And while nobody has replied to my earlier question about space wolf long fang spam or mech guard being as nasty as grey knights
People have been replying to this question, just not directly. Long Fang spam and Mech Guard have specialty areas- or at least specialties for each unit. Sure, Long Fangs have Counter-Attack and may have a Wolf Guard with them to help in close combat, but they're still not actually that good in close combat- If the enemy can reach them, the squad is in trouble. An equivalent Grey Knight squad (full of psycannons) is still very dangerous in close combat- an enemy reaching them in close combat is far from having a guaranteed win.
I won't argue that no other codexes have issues, but GK's stand out to me as the worst so far.


I'd also like to expand on this notion of tyranid players just not charging their MCs at Gks. Ok, let's say I have 2 Trygons with Adrenal Glands in my army (2 seems reasonable, since tyranid armies generally favour redundancy). If I'm not allowed to charge GKs with them... what exactly should they be doing?

This, I think, is the biggest issue with Grey Knights that affects me personally. Everyone keeps saying how Grey Knights can be beaten with certain armies, using certain troops combinations, etc- that's fine, all well and good, but I play 'Nids. I play with a tournament style army (ie. I have a list I turn up with and play that list vs all players). The Grey Knight players in my area also play to a pre-set list, and can put up a good fight vs any army they're drawn against. However, unless my pre-set list is specially tailored to be anti-GK's, I will have a very uphill fight against them. To me this is clearly a bad thing- I don't want to have run a tailored list, ignoring most of my favourite things in the cosex, just to have a hope in the off chance I draw a GK opponent in my casual games- especially not when the GK opponent's don't have to go to this bother.


I do hope that when the new Chaos Codex hits the stores I can find a thread that starts with "Why do you have a beef with the new Chaos Codex?" because it would mean that we - again - got a Codex worthy of our legacy as the game's umtimate enemy...
No codex should ever have these issues- it's not fun to play against, and for many people it's not fun to play with. I really hope 6th ed 40K takes just one page from 8th Ed Warhammer- and that's to have much more balanced army books/ codexes be released after it.

Shadow Lord
09-05-2012, 18:36
[/QUOTE]No codex should ever have these issues- it's not fun to play against, and for many people it's not fun to play with. I really hope 6th ed 40K takes just one page from 8th Ed Warhammer- and that's to have much more balanced army books/ codexes be released after it.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that!

Draconis
09-05-2012, 19:27
No codex should ever have these issues- it's not fun to play against, and for many people it's not fun to play with. I really hope 6th ed 40K takes just one page from 8th Ed Warhammer- and that's to have much more balanced army books/ codexes be released after it.[/QUOTE]

Amen to that![/QUOTE]

I agree, however its too late. When every codex becomes over the top like the last 4 or 5, then the game will be balanced.

Grimtuff
09-05-2012, 19:36
I agree, however its too late. When every codex becomes over the top like the last 4 or 5, then the game will be balanced.

The last 4 or 5 codexes have been OTT? :confused: Depending on what constitutes a codex release and how you're counting them, both Tyranids and SOB make your list. Neither of which are considered "top tier" armies.

Draconis
09-05-2012, 20:16
lol, good point, i concede. I was referring to SM chapters and such.

HalfBlood
09-05-2012, 20:56
I agree, however its too late. When every codex becomes over the top like the last 4 or 5, then the game will be balanced.

Be more specific like BA/GK/SW/IG, Im pretty sure Necrons and DE are fairly balanced

Inquisitor Shego
09-05-2012, 21:50
Oh no I'm not tough, but I reckon I can take him based on images I've seen. Just angry when you invest X amount of money into a hobby and this guy comes along and throws it into disequilibrium. He did it with Fantasy Daemons, Blood Angels then made vanilla marines redundant, and now this monstrosity. He seems to know balance when it comes to a non-Astartes list though. When the Necrons walk into town he's suddenly Mr Reasonable.

Of course this is "nerd rage" and I don't dispute that.


EDIT - In fairness maybe the nonsensical exploits of Draigo are based on Matt Ward's real accomplishments, in which case he'll floor me

vladsimpaler
09-05-2012, 21:54
Oh no I'm not tough, but I reckon I can take him based on images I've seen. Just angry when you invest X amount of money into a hobby and this guy comes along and throws it into disequilibrium. He did it with Fantasy Daemons, Blood Angels then made vanilla marines redundant, and now this monstrosity. He seems to know balance when it comes to a non-Astartes list though. When the Necrons walk into town he's suddenly Mr Reasonable.

Of course this is "nerd rage" and I don't dispute that.

I honestly did not know that disequilibrium was a word until you used it haha, you learn something new every day. Intredasting...

I will be interested in seeing how Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels size up the GK's.

Inquisitor Shego
09-05-2012, 21:59
I honestly did not know that disequilibrium was a word until you used it haha, you learn something new every day. Intredasting....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disequilibrium
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disequilibrium
AND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-19kMXEBw8


Part of me wonders though, how much have Grey Knights been written for the next edition. They're fearsome now, but if this is the standard we can anticipate in future codecies then holy cow :o. I know Fantasy Daemons are sick, but the latest edition took them down a peg. Still this seems like a desperate hope given how dangerous that book is on the battlefield.

Kevlar
09-05-2012, 22:21
One thing that does do a good job of balancing GK and a lot of other train wreck lists is no special characters. Most of the super power builds seem to be tied to running a SC, especially with Grey Knights and their force org shenanigans.

Getz
09-05-2012, 22:58
Strong e-thugging, you must be pretty tough in real life.

Let's be real here, there have been very few releases that prompt "what's the beef with ______?" threads. I know on another website there was a thread that went to almost 70 pages about how the Grey Knights were overpowered. There's obviously a problem here and you'd have to be intentionally obtuse and/or a Grey Knights player (although they often go hand in hand) to ignore that.

To be fair, I understand where they're coming from. I've been playing IG for well nigh twenty years and used to get quite a lot of wins with the old codexes, but now the new codex is powerful suddenly all my wins are because "I use a broken codex." It took me a long time to get good with IG and I don't like being told that all my wins are down to the codex I use and not my personal skill - but objectively I still have to admit that the latest IG codex is a very powerful list.

vladsimpaler
09-05-2012, 23:08
To be fair, I understand where they're coming from. I've been playing IG for well nigh twenty years and used to get quite a lot of wins with the old codexes, but now the new codex is powerful suddenly all my wins are because "I use a broken codex." It took me a long time to get good with IG and I don't like being told that all my wins are down to the codex I use and not my personal skill - but objectively I still have to admit that the latest IG codex is a very powerful list.

I can sympathize with players who used the Daemonhunters codex and then finally got the Grey Knights codex, since they were interested in them long before they were "good". This is because I played IG in 4th using their old codex so I know how it feels to be fighting an uphill battle! So yeah, now we both have powerful lists, I can't deny that. I'm more pointing a finger at the new players who use GK and say "deal with it" and somehow think that they're better just because they're using the most powerful codex out there.
Now I don't nerd rage or anything but the last thing I want to deal with in 40k is a bunch of smelly nerds on high horses because they beat my blob IG with Grey Knights.

Nurgling Chieftain
10-05-2012, 00:27
I've been playing IG for well nigh twenty years and used to get quite a lot of wins with the old codexes, but now the new codex is powerful suddenly all my wins are because "I use a broken codex."Most of the old stuff in the codex falls well into the category of bringing guard to an appropriate power level. Aside from chimelta vets, the "broken" or at least top-tier stuff in the codex is new: vendettas, hydras, manticores, medusae. If you're winning with an old list in the current codex, cries of "broken" are IMO totally unwarranted.

Dazza612
10-05-2012, 02:31
So why did GKs need so much stuff that specifically hurts orks and nids?



Please don't spout crap like "it was designed for 6th edition" unless you can back it up with actual evidence.

Unless you're saying that Mat Ward is so lost in his wolrd of fanboy marines that he has no idea which edition he's writing for, then it sems reasonable to assume that a codex released in 5th edition was designed (and this may blow your mind) for 5th edition.





Actually, compared to GK halberds, we get very little in the way of cheap high-initiative, and most of our "high initiative" is 5, which is useless against halberds. Furthermore, against purifiers, we could have I10, and clensing flame would still strike first.



Well, by "all" I assume you mean the 2/11 MCs that can actually have TL-devourers.

Again, this might blow your mind, but I do actually play armies outside of GKs. And, shockingly, I sometimes use MCs like Trygons, which are meant purely for CC (amazing as this sounds, not all races come with force weapons on their basic troops to deal with such things).

Considering that I don't like tailoring my list, it's not unreasonable to assume that some of my MCs might actually be CC ones. Therefore, advising me to equip them with the TL-devourers that they can't have, and saying 'don't charge them into combat - just let them mill around and get shot to death' is far less helpful then you presumably think it is.

Firstly and you can take this with a grain of salt but the rumours around 6th edition that assault and shooting phases will be swapped, and while everybody keeps talking about grey knights in combat they are actually first and foremost a shooting army and over the middle range mid-table are the best shooting army in the game.

Secondly, actually nids do, give hormagaunts adrenal glands and they're initiative 6 and str 4 on the charge, now if you shoot the hell out of the purifier unit so there aren't many left and have something with shadow in the warp backing up the unit!

Thirdly, I realise not all MC's have twin-linked devourers (I do have a nids army), your other MC''s well keep them out of combat, shield them with cheap units of termagaunts, which is why most competitive gamers take a minimum of 2 tervigons in a nid army.

At the end of the day I feel for you, I'm a nids player as well but I think your angst should be more towards having a crap codex than against grey knights because nids can't compete at a competitive level with the top codexes, they will be smashed by mech guard and long fang spam space wolves and mech blood angels! For instance how do your nids go against a vulkan led marines list? Ultimately you have a choice if you don't wanna play grey knights with your nids, then don't, use one of your other armies. Grey knights aren't unblanced or OP per se but against certain codexes, they are namely orks and nids!

Dazza612
10-05-2012, 02:35
Most of the old stuff in the codex falls well into the category of bringing guard to an appropriate power level. Aside from chimelta vets, the "broken" or at least top-tier stuff in the codex is new: vendettas, hydras, manticores, medusae. If you're winning with an old list in the current codex, cries of "broken" are IMO totally unwarranted.

It's not the old style codex list or the balanced type guard list that people have a problem with, it's the vendetta and chimera spam vets list with masses of plasma guns and melta guns, backed up by long range fire support from manticores and hydras with psykers as well. Then multiple cheap units of troops which they feed into the elite stuff and shoot the rest of your army off the table!

Having said all of this I play in a competitive environment so rather than whinging about it I just try and learn ways to defeat it and it is possible to defeat!

Justicar_Freezer
10-05-2012, 02:40
So I posted earlier in the thread and I've been keeping up with the pages since. The thing that strikes me is how many people say

"Why would you take anything other then Coteaz/Draigo/Crowe, why would you do anything but spam henchmen, purifiers, paladins, psyrifle dreads."

To me that statement is a bit off. I played Grey Knights under the Demonhunter Codex, had a unit of them in 2nd edition when they were like 500pts for 5 guys. When I look through the new codex I won't lie alot of the choices just don't exsist for me. I can't see taking inquisitors/Coteaz to spam henchmen because it's not part of the army. The fluff in the book however much people dislike it says how purifiers are supposed to be a very rare unit thus I can't see taking Crowe and spamming them unless (and I stress this) it's an apoc game. Draigo is cool because he let's you run the paladin army but you can have a termi army without having to run masses of paladins.

Maybe I'm an odd duck when it comes to the Grey Knight codex/40k in general but I really don't like/enjoy the push towards special characters. I was a fan of the direction that traits, doctrines took when they were introduced and I wish they would have refined them instead of just pushing special characters on every one.

The one thing from codex Demonhunters I wish would have held over into the new codex was the way nemesis weapons were treated. I don't like all the different types of nemesis force weapons I much prefered when they were all just the same thing. I liked back when my knights were all St6 but the nemesis weapons worked off of rank so basic PA guys were just ST6, justicars, Terminators, and Brother Caps were all armed with ST6 power weapons and the Grand Master had the force weapon. That felt more well thought out to me and I'd be happy to go back to that and give up hammerhand with anyone that I played.

Just reading through this thread I understand where people who have a beef with Grey Knights are coming from but I can't help but wonder if all Grey Knights players are beardy, take min/max special character lists. Or if some out there like me enjoy making their own HQs and running lists that are a bit more concerned with fluff and narrative.

Probably the last I'll post in this one but that's my 2 cents on the issue. Shame that people maxing the codex out with the most min/max type builds possible have ruined it for Knights players who might want to just take random fun narrative type lists.

Dazza612
10-05-2012, 02:42
To be fair, I understand where they're coming from. I've been playing IG for well nigh twenty years and used to get quite a lot of wins with the old codexes, but now the new codex is powerful suddenly all my wins are because "I use a broken codex." It took me a long time to get good with IG and I don't like being told that all my wins are down to the codex I use and not my personal skill - but objectively I still have to admit that the latest IG codex is a very powerful list.

How is that any difference to Grey Knights? Why is it that the Grey Knights codex is unbalanceD but the imperial guard codex isn't? Nothing says you have to take a purifier, coteaz, or draigo wing list in grey knights! Yes grey knights has some great toys, but doesn't imperial guard as well with cheap vendettas (which scout by the way), masses of cheap melta guns and plasma guns, long range firepower in hydras and manticores and very good and cheap psykers!

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 03:41
Special characters in the Gk list are quite effective for what you pay, and I play Gk, have loved them since daemonhunters, and feel that coteaz is a funny bird, but he's worth taking for feel, I try not to spam dca, etc, I want to play a fun game, but all I get on basic strike etc is force weapons, so coteaz is there to take the troops I need for obvious non psyker test weapons......
Crowe list..... Much dislike.
Purifiers stay where they belong.
Draigo wing, also stays where it belongs, in elites.

I'm a sucker for the dread knight though, love the way he works.
So yes, Gk have strong builds atm, but the new rules may change that.
Btw, I play ig, Ba, and nids, as well as Gk.

So rage is rage, nothing is op when you find a way to kill it.
Nothing is cheesy when you turn it to swiss.

Ie lash submission, cheese, op, etc, I laugh when its used, it amuses me.
Same as chimelta vets, I laugh when they are used.... And never resort to using them.

I'll keep sight on the thread, I might learn what people hate the most and do a hate spam list for giggles in my next game.

Lothlanathorian
10-05-2012, 06:01
In fairness maybe the nonsensical exploits of Draigo are based on Matt Ward's real accomplishments, in which case he'll floor me

They are.



:shifty:

Bassik
10-05-2012, 07:43
The arguement seems to be that, when taking a horribly over powered army list, Grey Knights are a terrible army to play against.
So everybody always takes these lists, then?

Nobody forces these people to play a net list; if you know that a certain army list is horribly frustrating for your mates, why would you ever play it? Unless you are one of those types that enjoy beating the whatsit out of your friends, I can't possibly imagine all those people using these lists.
My own list does not even resemble the netlists. In fact, I have seen only one netlist in my entire gaming career, and that was years ago.
The Grey Knights are still tuff' as nails without spamming these horribly overpowered choices, but at least they're not the game breaker the internet people make it out to be.

Slightly off topic, but relevant:

And who wants to take psyflemen anyway? For one thing, dreadnoughts are rareley used in a Grey Knight army fluffwise, so that's the fluff reason. Then, they don't look as cool as other dreadnought variants, so there's the hobby aspect. Lastly, a dreadnought without a close combat arm is hardly a dreadnought at all! So there's also the awesome factor to calculate.

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 07:57
Good call bassik.
I for one don't like psylenoughts.
Henchmen, I can see the hobby and the awesomeness, who wouldn't want the inquisitor to have a pimped look with his hangers on.
Dreadknights while new have fluff reason, hobby aspect and awesome look, plus room for conversion.
I like the hobby aspect of the grey knights, and the crazy ideas you can come up with to use them, I have yet to go *hey look what I pulled off the net to kick you down with* tbh, I have only had 2 games with them since release.

At least its not a fleet of foot spam army that vanilla marines can be guilty of.... Fleet of foot terminators w lightning claws, who would have thought.....
Reguardless, there will always be an *OP* choice, there will always be a *CHEESY* list, because in compeditive play, like tournaments, the spam list will always take priority over fair and fun play, in friendly games, I'm not objective to placing restrictions on my army if I feel that its a kill joy, ie force weapon knights, I remove the force weapon rule and just have power weapons....... Did that for my 2nd game w Gk, rematch vs a mate, but it still killed his optimised ork army......... I felt bad, and didn't use them after.

Grimtuff
10-05-2012, 08:12
So rage is rage, nothing is op when you find a way to kill it.
Nothing is cheesy when you turn it to swiss.


That argument is so loaded with fail I don't even know where to begin... :rolleyes:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CvudXaiCeKk/T1aV7kJSB2I/AAAAAAAADQE/M24nMEczXBE/s1600/jackie-chan-wtf.png This simply expresses my reaction.

Bassik
10-05-2012, 08:25
That argument is so loaded with fail I don't even know where to begin... :rolleyes:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CvudXaiCeKk/T1aV7kJSB2I/AAAAAAAADQE/M24nMEczXBE/s1600/jackie-chan-wtf.png This simply expresses my reaction.

Stay classy, Grimtuff.
Hazmiter's analogy may have been a bit flawed, but we both know what he ment.
No need to belittle him with crappy internet memes.

Grimtuff
10-05-2012, 08:35
Stay classy, Grimtuff.
Hazmiter's analogy may have been a bit flawed, but we both know what he ment.
No need to belittle him with crappy internet memes.

Really? So something is no longer considered to be overpowered if you can beat it? Um, no. That is flawed logic.

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 08:40
Nice meme, but still, ill try clarify.

Over powered is only over powered while there is no possible counter, it takes time to find one, and when found, the op player cries foul, cheese etc.

Cheesy is and always will be cheesy, until you find a way to stop it from being cheese.
Once again, takes time, and when cheese is countered by solid list that stops that cheese, again, op/ cheese player cries and sulks.

Example is an eldar player who has had his miniatures pro painted, and is a net list mechdar spam, he now cries cheese and op when I decide to have IG blob squads w krack grenades swarm over his vehicles and walkers......... After getting shot by a basil and russ combo meal deal from hell.
And my 3 basilisks, 1 leman Russ, and 2 valkyries are all the tanks I have for IG, and I can't carry them all on a sportsbike.

Another example is, shock horror, heaven forbid, a Gk list I played against, yummo, draigo spam vs IG...... No melta vets, not for my foot slogging bullet catching swarms of troopers, I just chuck em in w a priest, 5 commissars, and 50 blob..... War of attrition kills, so does deepstrike onto occupied board edges w an imperial gunline.....

Want to kill Gk, roll out the instant death, ap1, 2 and 3 long range weapons, can't have those, i.e nids, orks.... Possibly....
Roll out the hoards of boys, gaunts etc.
What's psycannon spam to a hoard....

Grimtuff
10-05-2012, 08:44
Nice meme, but still, ill try clarify.

Over powered is only over powered while there is no possible counter, it takes time to find one, and when found, the op player cries foul, cheese etc.


Nope, that's invincible. Something can be OP and still be beatable. Hell, there is an entire game built around that (Warmahordes).

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 08:53
:p then my head is occupied by nerglings and a purifiers burning my brain out.

Seriously in my mind, if I think "omg its OP, what am I going to do, I'm gonna lose to it" then I most likely will.
Over powered in abilities and equipment, hell yes, grey knights have the cake and eat it, I'm still jealous that chaos marines get 30 point terminators, and I'm stuck w 40 point ones for my Ba, but I can whine all I like.

If I want to kill something that is over powered ill go out of my way to kill it in the most fun way possible.... Usually with a blob of furious charging, priest toting, 5 commissar blob..... Or death company.... (over powered possibly)

But as this is a forum, and I have no coffee, I can only give a semi coherent, but valid opinion from my point of view.

Bassik
10-05-2012, 08:55
Really? So something is no longer considered to be overpowered if you can beat it? Um, no. That is flawed logic.

No matter how right you think you are, it's no reason to be impolite. (A jerk about it, if you will).
And if I can beat it, I don't considder it overpowered. You do? That's weird to me, man.

-DE-
10-05-2012, 09:19
So if you only beat GK's once in 100 matches then they're not OP? Is that your logic?

Even GW is not dumb enough to release an army that cannot be ever defeated. That doesn't mean that some codices or units are not clearly that much better (=cheesy, OP, broken, whatever you want to call it) than the others.

Greyhorn
10-05-2012, 09:32
GK are indeed a great army, I play them, but you all seem to forget that this is a game, a game based on dice roll. This week I played against SM and finally won the game because of the luck. (You can say I'm a noob player blabla, you ain't wrong XP since 3d editions i did not have played anymore) that's the fact: My Vindicare assasin + dual laser canon + Melta at short range, took 3 turns to crush their land raider (bad rolls indeed to not penetrate an armor with 4d6 don't you think?) But then luck give me a chance, my DK survived with 1 wound to 2 predator anihilators firing all they have against him. he survived and captured the last objective making me won on the last turn.

My point is, no matter what do you play with, luck is indeed a good part of the game. yes, you will problably win more games with GK but.. does that really matters?

Vipoid
10-05-2012, 09:41
Firstly and you can take this with a grain of salt but the rumours around 6th edition that assault and shooting phases will be swapped, and while everybody keeps talking about grey knights in combat they are actually first and foremost a shooting army and over the middle range mid-table are the best shooting army in the game.

If assault phases and shooting phases are swapped, then it's hardly just GKs that will be hurt.

Guess who else has a lot of assault weapons and like to shoot a unit first, and then assault it?



Secondly, actually nids do, give hormagaunts adrenal glands and they're initiative 6 and str 4 on the charge, now if you shoot the hell out of the purifier unit so there aren't many left and have something with shadow in the warp backing up the unit!

Yes, homogants are I6 on the charge. Whereas GK halberds are I6 all the time. So, after 1 round of combat, my homogants are now S3, I5, and the GKs are still I6. If the GKs charge them, then they're I5, S3, and the GKs are I6. If they charge/get charged by purifiers, then their initiative means sod-all, because Clenasing Flame breaks all initiative barriers.

What exactly do you have in mind when you say "shoot the hell out of the purifier unit"?



Thirdly, I realise not all MC's have twin-linked devourers (I do have a nids army), your other MC''s well keep them out of combat, shield them with cheap units of termagaunts, which is why most competitive gamers take a minimum of 2 tervigons in a nid army.


So... if I've spent 420pts on 2 Trygons, your advice is to just sit them out of combat, and in fact guard them with smaller units. Well I'm sure that will go well.



At the end of the day I feel for you, I'm a nids player as well but I think your angst should be more towards having a crap codex than against grey knights because nids can't compete at a competitive level with the top codexes, they will be smashed by mech guard and long fang spam space wolves and mech blood angels! For instance how do your nids go against a vulkan led marines list? Ultimately you have a choice if you don't wanna play grey knights with your nids, then don't, use one of your other armies. Grey knights aren't unblanced or OP per se but against certain codexes, they are namely orks and nids!

I believe I've already exhausted my angst about the nid codex. However, I'll say this once again - if the nid codex is so terrible, then why do GKs need so much stuff that hurts us more than any other army?



Over powered is only over powered while there is no possible counter, it takes time to find one, and when found, the op player cries foul, cheese etc.

You have a very strange definition of what constitutes 'Overpowered'.

Surely a unit is overpowered if it is stronger than comparable units for the same cost, with no downside to counteract its advantages?

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 09:46
To many, it does matter. I make a point of never repeating an army list, always swapping out and changing.
Some things stay the same, other things go. I love unorthodox play styles, shooty stuff, I love it, cc stuff, especially.....
I don't care about winning, I care about the fun I have while playing.
I laugh when a lucky shot instakills a character, I groan when a monster kills an infantry squad just by making them run, catching, and devouring them... And giggle maniacly when I charge the last remaining model from a squad into a suicidal combat, that, luck permitting, he will survive and hold them up for a turn.

Vipoid
10-05-2012, 09:48
My point is, no matter what do you play with, luck is indeed a good part of the game. yes, you will problably win more games with GK but.. does that really matters?

So... what you're saying is that, because the game has a random element, balance is completely irrelevant? :eyebrows:

Bunnahabhain
10-05-2012, 09:55
Surely a unit is overpowered if it is stronger than comparable units for the same cost, with no downside to counteract its advantages?

With an important addendum. "Within context for the codex."

A fast and effective assault unit, for instance, is worth less in codex Dark Eldar as they have a surfeit of them, than it would be in codex Tau or Guard, who don't. An army who can really cover every aspect of the game well is much stronger than one with a glaring weakness.

HRM
10-05-2012, 10:04
To me, to be honest, the GK play, on the table, exactly how I always pictured even the weakest Marine list SHOULD be - small, elite, beats the living snot out of EVERYTHING. Now I realise that for game balance, it can't be that way - but it's interesting, to me at least, to finally see some REAL Marines on the table.

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 10:12
@bunnahabain.
For codex internal balance, for the sake of asking your opinion, should grey knight terminators, strike marines etc, have been between the current points and the old points.
I see where others come from in opinion, and I have my own on it.
It's an arguement that will continue till there is a FAQ on them, and the new rules come out, and then we will see players crying GIMP on armies that were good, and OP on others..... I can think of a few now actually.....

Bunnahabhain
10-05-2012, 10:20
To me, to be honest, the GK play, on the table, exactly how I always pictured even the weakest Marine list SHOULD be - small, elite, beats the living snot out of EVERYTHING. Now I realise that for game balance, it can't be that way - but it's interesting, to me at least, to finally see some REAL Marines on the table.

That is true. They are almost movie marines.

I think there would be far fewer complaints if they all simply cost more. Say somewhere between 10-20% price hike across the whole book. Movie marine rules should have move marine model counts.

A better fix would be to remove some of the worst over the top elements- FOC swaps, game mechanic breaking FAQs etc, universal force weapons as standard, and fix the costsing of certian things- psybolts, helaberds, (you know the list...) and rebalance it that way.

EDIT Hazmiter. I honestly don't know, as:
I scarcely saw daemon hunters enough to get a proper feel what what a unit was actually worth, and what it cost
The rules have changed so much.
I scarcely see the normal terminators, strike squads etc now, as I do run into Palididn spam, Henchmen spam etc too much.