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Sqallum
05-05-2012, 17:47
What do you think of the new flyers? June 2nd, 2012

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/space-marine-stormtalon-gunship.html

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/ork-blizta-bommer.html

I myself assume this is the SM version of the Stormraven, but hopefully with more armour. I am going to get this for my Iron Warriors pre-heresy... looks pretty cool from the sketches ;)

Whaddya think?
Sqallum

Hendarion
05-05-2012, 18:26
You should really read the rumour section. The StormTalon has no transport-capacity and is AV11. ... More armour than the Stormraven, some ppl are just never satisfied. It ignores melta, AV12 all around, fires on flat-out, transports a cybot, can deepstrike and allows jump-infantry to disembark at flat-out. You really got to stop there imo.

What I think about it? I think that everybody gets a fast antigrav tank with better fire-ability than Eldar and DE and I'm not too fond of that. Real flyers like Apocalypse, yea, I'd love that. But just fast anti-grav-skimmer-like vehicles - just better - meh.

Dreadlordpaul
05-05-2012, 19:18
Im actually annoyed because just like always chaos gets nothing new loyalists do

Reivax26
06-05-2012, 00:06
We are going to get a "Mechanical Dragon" in our next dex so who cares about their little anti-grav vehicles.

Sqallum
06-05-2012, 10:56
We are going to get a "Mechanical Dragon" in our next dex so who cares about their little anti-grav vehicles.

Eldar? Hmmm, sounds good

semper_fi
26-05-2012, 20:03
im sure as hell going to buy the stormtalon and a valkyrie, and kitbash them into a proper spacemarine craft !

sakura_ninja
26-05-2012, 20:11
I really like the ork fliers, they are my favourite of the bunch
The necron scythe is ok
I don't like the talon at all.

Chem-Dog
26-05-2012, 20:15
What do you think of the new flyers? June 2nd, 2012

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/space-marine-stormtalon-gunship.html

http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/ork-blizta-bommer.html

I myself assume this is the SM version of the Stormraven, but hopefully with more armour. I am going to get this for my Iron Warriors pre-heresy... looks pretty cool from the sketches ;)

Whaddya think?
Sqallum

Those links don't help much, I get a "no image" entry and a "page not found" notice...

Stormtalon (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1600096a&_requestid=2 86536)

I kinda like it, once you get a look at the side of it. I'm not a fan of the HUUUUUUUUUGE chin Asscans but I recon an imaginative approach to colour-scheme would help there (to stop it standing out so much). I've certainly got a few ideas for conversions using the kit.

Ork Bommer (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1600094a)

What's to say? It's pretty much how you'd expect an Ork Flyer to look. It's nice enough. I know one guy who'll probably have a squadron of them put together before the end of next month.

Necron Doomscythe (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440160a&prodId=prod1600092a)

Cylon fighter + Stargate fighter. Again, pretty much exactly what you'd expect from the Necrons' current design principals. Certainly not offensive to the eyes. Can't wait to see some in the more adventurous colour schemes.


Im actually annoyed because just like always chaos gets nothing new loyalists do

Seriously?
With a new codex pretty much guaranteed this year.... Is it not reasonable to at least assume that there might be something coming. Like Reviax said, "Mechanical Dragon" is the rumour mill's word on this, I'm personally hoping that actually translates as "Daemon Engine", with wings.

Souleater
26-05-2012, 20:25
Honestly, not impressed.

After the amazing 'centre piece' models fantasy had over the last few months I was expecting something fantastic. These are okay but nothing special.

Hopeful Chaos will get a flying Daemon engine and the Harpy will look fantastic (if we ever get it).

insectum7
26-05-2012, 21:16
The Necron one and the Ork one are pretty successful. I'm particularly fond of the details of the Necron one, very cool.

The Space Marine one is really ugly. Considering its weapon loadout, you could probably make a better model by slapping turbofans on a slightly modified Predator tank.

Dylius
26-05-2012, 21:35
I think the Ork and Necron ones are quite nice, but not amazing - though I'm sure I could have lots of fun konvertin' the Ork Bomber.

I don't like the Storm Talon's under-slung gun. It actually looks like they've tried to cram more guns onto that little craft than the Orks have with their own!

Clarkson
26-05-2012, 22:10
We are going to get a "Mechanical Dragon" in our next dex so who cares about their little anti-grav vehicles.

whan, and really if at all, the next codex hits we get a flyer dragon thing. yet we still dont get any of the FW stuff that loyalists have besides the contemptor and eagle... everything else... we get forgotten about.. achiles? the "pre-heresy" pattern heavy LR? nope. the current crusader/redeemer that every chapter has, even ones that chapter that defectw ould have? nope. stormbolters?? nope.

stop wishlisting as chaos will never get anything cool.. and if we do.. it wont be for long

Clarkson
26-05-2012, 22:12
I think the Ork and Necron ones are quite nice, but not amazing - though I'm sure I could have lots of fun konvertin' the Ork Bomber.

I don't like the Storm Talon's under-slung gun. It actually looks like they've tried to cram more guns onto that little craft than the Orks have with their own!

the thing is.. the doom/nightscythe has been in the necron codex for months now... they are not new.. just never had a model for it. a model that was needed. what wasnt needed was the flying full-diaper or the plactic kit of the ork FW fighta bomba.

AlphariusOmegon20
26-05-2012, 22:15
Stone Rhino posted these in another thread. It looks like he improved the Thunderspud's look with a couple of changes.

141414

141415

semper_fi
26-05-2012, 22:21
Stone Rhino posted these in another thread. It looks like he improved the Thunderspud's look with a couple of changes.

141414

141415

indeed that was around what i was thinking... but making the tail section a bit longer and using some falk wings to house most of the weaponry

AlphariusOmegon20
26-05-2012, 22:25
indeed that was around what i was thinking... but making the tail section a bit longer and using some falk wings to house most of the weaponry

By removing the lower tail, Stone Rhino gave it the impression the tail was longer than it really is.

I think he really hit on something here.

Xerkics
27-05-2012, 00:08
I think it would have made a better helicopter tbh . ITs kinda obviously missing the blades.

Kakapo42
27-05-2012, 02:02
Well, I still wish that they'd simply plastic-kitify the Forgeworld aircraft like they did with the Valkyrie, but I think I like the Ork ones the best. Especially the dive-bommer and incindiary variants.

I'm still not convinced about the exposed pilot in the Necron aircraft, I personally think it just looks silly. It is however an extremely minor fault and easily rectified with some well-placed greenstuff or plasticard.

The Space Marine one I am not pleased with. It is not because of it's aesthetics, but rather because I simply do not see the point in it. There was already a perfectly suitable Space Marine plane in the form of the Storm Raven, giving them a second one simply seems excessive to me.

Actually, it just occurs to me that the Storm Talon seems to have been inspired by the Orca (http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/ORCA_Assault_Craft) from Command and Conquer. I may have to see about converting an Orca from one one day...

I'm eager to see what the other factions will be getting, especially the Tau. I'm still hoping for a Barracuda or Barracuda clone, but it'll probably end up being just a Remora-like drone unit...

sakura_ninja
27-05-2012, 08:34
I hope they do a thunderbolt at some point, after they finish releasing the rest of the guard.

Commotionpotion
27-05-2012, 10:51
I won't tell a lie - as much as I hate to criticise someone's hard work in creating something, that Stormtalon looks...hideous.

I think the main problem is the manned cockpit. It makes the fuselage look excessively bulged (serious, why stick a fully armoured marine in there?).

If the Stormtalon was an unmanned UAV aircraft, like a H-K from the Terminator films, the hull form would make more sense, as the weapons could be carried in the central pod.

The Ork Bomma, with a bit of work, looks like it could be reconfigured as an Imperial aircraft. Its relatively 'clean' in its lines - all it would take would be a bit of strategic shaving and some alterations to the weapons, and you'd have a MIG-15 style Imperial fighter. It's probably the best looking of the bunch as a basic kit.

The Necron one is pretty much what we've expected. One thing I find intriguing is that the wings are plug-ins like the Valkyrie. If the joints are symmetrical, you could conceiveably put the wings on backwards, making a sort of recurve-bow plan view. With a couple of weapons swaps and some detail alterations, you could well use it to make a differently styled Chaos Hellblade fighter - the Necron detailing could be converted to a more Tzeentchain appearance.

Kakapo42
27-05-2012, 11:31
The Necron one is pretty much what we've expected. One thing I find intriguing is that the wings are plug-ins like the Valkyrie. If the joints are symmetrical, you could conceiveably put the wings on backwards, making a sort of recurve-bow plan view. With a couple of weapons swaps and some detail alterations, you could well use it to make a differently styled Chaos Hellblade fighter - the Necron detailing could be converted to a more Tzeentchain appearance.

I like it! You wouldn't even need to swap out the weapons that much, just replace the tesla cannons with reaper autocannons and say the death-ray/wormhole portal is some arcane deamonic weapon that fires bolts of sorcerous energy. Not sure what you'd do for a canopy though...

-Loki-
27-05-2012, 11:39
whan, and really if at all, the next codex hits we get a flyer dragon thing. yet we still dont get any of the FW stuff that loyalists have besides the contemptor and eagle... everything else... we get forgotten about.. achiles? the "pre-heresy" pattern heavy LR? nope. the current crusader/redeemer that every chapter has, even ones that chapter that defectw ould have? nope. stormbolters?? nope.

stop wishlisting as chaos will never get anything cool.. and if we do.. it wont be for long

Then play using the regular Space Marine codex, since it's obvious you just want Space Marines with some spikes on them.

The Chaos Decimator is the direction Forgeworld are going with Chaos - less 'spikey Imperial', more 'holy **** daemon engine'. Hopefully GW follows, as it's more interesting than spikey Imperials.

Also, you can use the pre heresy Land Raiders. The experimental rules say they can be used in Chaos armies, and even retain their Power of the Machine spirit rules (albeit under a different name). Just slap some spikes on it, and you have your spikey pre Heresy Imperial Land Raider. You also get Dreadclaws (drop pods) from Forgeworld.

Endemion
27-05-2012, 12:25
The Space Marine one is really ugly. Considering its weapon loadout, you could probably make a better model by slapping turbofans on a slightly modified Predator tank.

You Sir, have hit the nail on the head.

Not-not-kenny
27-05-2012, 13:47
I like how ironic it is that the Bommer is the only one that looks like it actually would be able to fly.

snottlebocket
27-05-2012, 13:58
I love the ork aircraft so much I hope I'll be able to base a functional army around them. It's like kicking speed freaks to the next level.

I quite like the space marine craft, it reminds me a lot of various cyber punk designs. And those who think those front mounted assault cannons are too big should take a look at the A10's Avenger cannon. The avenger cannon is so big that they designed the A10 around it in order to have a platform that could actually carry it. The cannon is mounted off center because firing it actually slows the aircraft down mid flight and pushes it off target.

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraft/Fairchild-Republic-A10/IMAGES/Fairchild-A-10-Cannon-VW.jpg

Sami
27-05-2012, 14:13
The Ork fliers don't look ramshackle enough for my liking. They very much look designed as-is rather than something cobbled together by a mek from whatever bits he could get his hands on. Of course, you can convert the hell out of it if you want, but most GW Ork models already have this theme as part of their design.

Chem-Dog
27-05-2012, 16:18
I like it! You wouldn't even need to swap out the weapons that much, just replace the tesla cannons with reaper autocannons and say the death-ray/wormhole portal is some arcane deamonic weapon that fires bolts of sorcerous energy.

Or, it's a mini-mobile warp rift. Yes that's what I said.....aircraft that shoot DAEMONS at you!!!!


Not sure what you'd do for a canopy though...

Tentacles. Fact.

Getz
27-05-2012, 19:00
You know, I quite like the Storm Talon - once I rip the wings and engines off and give it some legs it'll make a great walker for my Tallerian dog Soldiers army. Complete fail as a Space Marine flyer, however... ;)

Oots
27-05-2012, 20:35
I like the orky flier. Cleaner lines than I was expecting, but I'm not a huge fan of the "bits of scrap nailed together" aesthetic anyway.

Scribe of Khorne
27-05-2012, 20:48
What do I think? Well I am selling armies to get into Orks, thats how much I like the Ork one. :D

The Necron is as advertised, looks like a nice clean kit, much like the others in the range now.

The SM one is far better then the initial angle showed, I dont hate it, but its not as awesome as the Ork Dakkajet. :D

f2k
27-05-2012, 21:33
The Stormtalon is absolutely hideous. It simply doesnít work, neither as a flyer, nor as a weapons platform.

The Doomscythe doesnít do it for me either. I simply donít like the new Necron design.

The Fightabomba is the one redeeming part of this. It actually looks okay and somewhat orky. With a bit of work and some additions from the bitz-box it might become a decent model.

What mostly surprised me, I must say, is the price. Itís almost, shock and horror, reasonable Ė especially when comparing the Fightabomba with the Forgeworld equivalent.

Ebon
27-05-2012, 21:46
The Ork one looks great. The Scythe looks just as it did in the codex (albeit the lack of canopy makes my head hurt a little). The Stormtalon is just ugly, in my opinion, and I'm a little worried that it ignores melta rules since that seems to be getting increasingly common.

Notanoob
28-05-2012, 00:25
The Stormtalon's problem is that its fuselage looks about 3/4 the size it should based on its weapons, and it's tail looks about 1/2 the size it should. Shrink the TLAC down so that it just barely sticks out from under the edge of the nose, and make the side guns close the the fuselage and smaller too, then it would look miles better.

snottlebocket
28-05-2012, 09:27
The Stormtalon's problem is that its fuselage looks about 3/4 the size it should based on its weapons, and it's tail looks about 1/2 the size it should. Shrink the TLAC down so that it just barely sticks out from under the edge of the nose, and make the side guns close the the fuselage and smaller too, then it would look miles better.

I disagree. Modern aircraft used weapons that are much, much bigger in relation to the plane than that storm talon. The A10 has a gun that's about a third of the size of the plane.

f2k
28-05-2012, 09:31
I disagree. Modern aircraft used weapons that are much, much bigger in relation to the plane than that storm talon. The A10 has a gun that's about a third of the size of the plane.

True, but...

1) The A10 is a very unusual aircraft, and...
2) All but the very tip of that weapon is hidden within the fuselage.

snottlebocket
28-05-2012, 10:09
True, but...

1) The A10 is a very unusual aircraft, and...
2) All but the very tip of that weapon is hidden within the fuselage.

Neither of which is relevant. Clearly it's possible to mount some very large weapons on aircraft. Not that I'm particularly concerned with what's really possible.

I quite like the space marine craft because it reminds me of those Japanese cyberpunk police games from the 90s like Policenauts and G-police. It's got it's charm.

MajorWesJanson
28-05-2012, 10:19
The Space Marine one I am not pleased with. It is not because of it's aesthetics, but rather because I simply do not see the point in it. There was already a perfectly suitable Space Marine plane in the form of the Storm Raven, giving them a second one simply seems excessive to me.

The StormRaven is an assault transport, while the Talon is an up-armored and faster land speeder with more weapon options.

sakura_ninja
28-05-2012, 10:23
The StormRaven is an assault transport, while the Talon is an up-armored and faster land speeder with more weapon options.
Would of rather had a plastic land speeder tempest.

f2k
28-05-2012, 10:46
Neither of which is relevant. Clearly it's possible to mount some very large weapons on aircraft. Not that I'm particularly concerned with what's really possible.

I quite like the space marine craft because it reminds me of those Japanese cyberpunk police games from the 90s like Policenauts and G-police. It's got it's charm.

Oh, but it does matter very much...

The A10 works because its weapon is an integral part of the airframe. The Stormtalon doesn’t work because the weapons are not an integral part of the airframe, but rather stuck on at odd places and angels.

Ignoring for a moment the problems of weight-distribution, centre of gravity, airframe integrity, aiming and firing weapons and all that, the very design of the Stormtalon doesn’t work because it’s so incredibly nose heavy with a huge weapon loadout stuck to a very small part of the airframe. It breaks all design conventions, not just for an air-worthy aircraft, but also for what looks right and nice.

In short: it’s an absolutely hideous design that makes no sense, neither as a design (aesthetically speaking), nor as a weapons platform.


Also, as has been mentioned before, it doesn’t really fit into the universe itself, suddenly giving the Space Marines access to a dedicated gunship. The Thunderhawk is okay as it’s a transporter/landing craft first and foremost, and a ground attack/gunship vehicle secondly.

Of course, since we don’t know all that’s in the Codex Astartes we can’t know for sure if this is a problem. But going by Battlefleet Gothic, the administration (and especially the Navy) are not entirely comfortable when Space Marines start using equipment in a role that would usually be performed by Navy (or possibly PDF) forces.

In any case, I would suggest that Marines are worth more on the ground than in the air. Why waste a Marine, asking him to perform a task that could easily be taken up by the Navy?

What the Marines do lack, I’ll admit, is a dedicated anti-air platform to secure their ground operations. That, in any case, would not go against the Codex.


But then again, all of this does beg the question of whether or not flyers really belong in this game in the first place. Considering the ranges of the typical engagement, ground support missions must be a harrowing task for any pilot, having to drop bombs and strafe areas with pinpoint accuracy as his own guys are literally yards away from his target. Much better then, to use what little air support Marines have to interdict enemy reinforcements before they reach the battlefield. That is: remain off-table...

snottlebocket
28-05-2012, 11:02
Warhammer makes 0 sense whatsoever. You simply can't apply logic to it or compare it to reality in the end. It's a game and it's being designed as one across the full spectrum. You're playing out these idiotic infantry battles because realistic warfare wouldn't make for much of a game.

The models are designed for 13 year old boys which means there's going to be skulls and armor plating and huge visible weapons. And really odd things like symmetry because everyone in design and art school learns that symmetry is visibly pleasing. The A10's gun is hidden and mounted off center because the gun actually pushes the plane side aways while slowing it down, in early models the venting gasses actually stalled the plane's engines until they designed around it.

You can't do that in warhammer. Functional asymmetry is ugly and a hidden weapon is a weapon that doesn't exist. So you get perfectly symmetrical vehicles with their weapons mounted proud and in view. And you get idiotic infantry hordes going pew pew pew because apparently nobody ever heard of artillery or air support. You get anti tank weapons that require you to walk up to the tank and stand next to it and lots of folks itching to throw down their guns and have a good old fashioned punch up.

Which leads to players ignoring the demons, magic, space elves, galaxy travelling world eating bugs, smug terminators twirling their mechanical moustaches, actual gods and avatars... so they can complain that the super men have an aircraft whose gun's are mounted wrong and it doesn't look aerodynamic enough. The same super men whose idea of a good transport is just dropping down onto a planet in a bucket or sitting in a ram rocket on a collision course with whatever they want to board.

Endemion
28-05-2012, 12:40
The Eldar do asymetrical vehicles pretty well.

Getz
28-05-2012, 13:58
Neither of which is relevant. Clearly it's possible to mount some very large weapons on aircraft. Not that I'm particularly concerned with what's really possible.

I appreciate that you personally don't especially care, but I'd just like to point out to everyone that the A10 is about the size of a world war two medium bomber - it's a honking massive airframe, especially for ground attack duties. Anyone using the example of the A10 for anything regarding what is and isn't possible in 40K needs to remember that it would be bigger than an Ork Fighter-Bomber by a comfortable margin.


I quite like the space marine craft because it reminds me of those Japanese cyberpunk police games from the 90s like Policenauts and G-police. It's got it's charm.

I quite like it in some ways for much the same reasons, but it doesn't look in the slightest bit Space Marine-y. I understand the commercial imperative that ensure the Space Marines get a new kit for every rules expamsion, but I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't do something based on the Landspeeder Tempest. At least it would then look consistent with the current model range - the Stormraven may be ugly, but it has certain design elements in common with the Thunderhawk, Landraider and Rhino, whereas the Storm Talon design has come more or less completely out of the leftfield.

It's not as if the Tempest couldn't easily be adapted into the Storm Talon - double up the nose assault cannon and turn the missile launchers into a modular weapons bay and bob's your uncle. Still, as I said before, it looks like it will be a good donor kit for some of my other projects...

f2k
28-05-2012, 13:59
The Eldar do asymetrical vehicles pretty well.

As do the Empire.

In any case, asymetrical does not equal ugly. I do however, agree that the design of this game needs weapons to be big and highly visible. However, there is a limt. I don't mind, for example, to see RPG characters with oversized swords. However, the kind of extremely oversized swords used by J-RPG's like the Final Fantasy series just look stupid.

Of course, a lot of this is down to personal preferences. However, there are some basic design-rules that should alwasy be used (ratios, balance, usability, etc.) - something which the Stortalon completely ignores.

Getz
28-05-2012, 13:59
sorry for the double post folks, but I just thought of something - I've seen the Stormtalon somewhere before...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROBOGEAR-Condor-Fighting-Machine-Action-Model-1-48-Scale-Plastic-NEW-/290717524546?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43b01d6242

snottlebocket
28-05-2012, 16:02
I appreciate that you personally don't especially care, but I'd just like to point out to everyone that the A10 is about the size of a world war two medium bomber - it's a honking massive airframe, especially for ground attack duties. Anyone using the example of the A10 for anything regarding what is and isn't possible in 40K needs to remember that it would be bigger than an Ork Fighter-Bomber by a comfortable margin.



I quite like it in some ways for much the same reasons, but it doesn't look in the slightest bit Space Marine-y. I understand the commercial imperative that ensure the Space Marines get a new kit for every rules expamsion, but I can't for the life of me understand why they didn't do something based on the Landspeeder Tempest. At least it would then look consistent with the current model range - the Stormraven may be ugly, but it has certain design elements in common with the Thunderhawk, Landraider and Rhino, whereas the Storm Talon design has come more or less completely out of the leftfield.

It's not as if the Tempest couldn't easily be adapted into the Storm Talon - double up the nose assault cannon and turn the missile launchers into a modular weapons bay and bob's your uncle. Still, as I said before, it looks like it will be a good donor kit for some of my other projects...

It looks very space marine-ey to me. Blocky, angular, very heavily armored. They're just very slowly moving away from having all space marine vehicles look like a container.

If you look at the old thunder hawk gunship design it's so rectangular it looks like a flying container. They're slowly moving away from that esthetic for space marines. I'd say the Storm Talon has a lot of design in common with previous space marine vehicles while expressing a very clear desire to move away from those aging designs. It's still covered in angled surfaces and heavy armor but there's more angles softening up the design a bit.

It's a good step forward. Not quite as ugly and aging as the old stuff but not such a leap that it's no longer recognizeable as space marine.

Chem-Dog
28-05-2012, 17:32
and I'm a little worried that it ignores melta rules since that seems to be getting increasingly common.
It's armour 11 all around. Meltas are still cracking it on 3's. It makes sense that anything required to achieve atmospheric entry will have some level of protection against the associated air-friction.


The StormRaven is an assault transport, while the Talon is an up-armored and faster land speeder with more weapon options.

It does kinda render the speeder obsolete doesn't it? It's got more/better guns, moves faster and is slightly more durable. And it competes for FOC slots. Not to mention the free-ride reserve rule.



Ignoring for a moment the problems of weight-distribution, centre of gravity, airframe integrity, aiming and firing weapons and all that, the very design of the Stormtalon doesnít work because itís so incredibly nose heavy with a huge weapon loadout stuck to a very small part of the airframe. It breaks all design conventions, not just for an air-worthy aircraft, but also for what looks right and nice.

In short: itís an absolutely hideous design that makes no sense, neither as a design (aesthetically speaking), nor as a weapons platform.

All the technical problems you allude to here can be, and are, entirely hand-waved by the fact it's far future technology using materials and processes that are beyond modern science. Aesthetics are a matter of taste.



Also, as has been mentioned before, it doesnít really fit into the universe itself, suddenly giving the Space Marines access to a dedicated gunship. The Thunderhawk is okay as itís a transporter/landing craft first and foremost, and a ground attack/gunship vehicle secondly.

Of course, since we donít know all thatís in the Codex Astartes we canít know for sure if this is a problem. But going by Battlefleet Gothic, the administration (and especially the Navy) are not entirely comfortable when Space Marines start using equipment in a role that would usually be performed by Navy (or possibly PDF) forces.

I really can't see why people think that a military organisation like the Astartes wouldn't have this kind of vehicle, they're supposed to be able to fight any enemy in virtually any arena of conflict. 40K has, until very recently, ignored or explained away the likely impact of air superiority on it's ground battles, it doesn't mean it's not important.


In any case, I would suggest that Marines are worth more on the ground than in the air. Why waste a Marine, asking him to perform a task that could easily be taken up by the Navy?

Assuming that a squadron or two of your favourite Imperial fighter are available for such a mission, remember the Astartes often operate alone and even if involved in a combined arms situation are quite regularly first respondent, they can't rely on the Imperial Warmachine to be fast enough to help.


What the Marines do lack, Iíll admit, is a dedicated anti-air platform to secure their ground operations. That, in any case, would not go against the Codex.

I honestly doubt the Codex Astartes would prohibit the use of any and all useful resources providing they don't break other , wider, prohibitions (like AI or Daemon Weapons). For example, even the Ultramarines use the Crusader pattern Land Raider which is a post Codex design. Also there's Hellfire rounds, which are the direct result of Anti-Tyranid research. There are probably other example but those two stick out in my memory.


But then again, all of this does beg the question of whether or not flyers really belong in this game in the first place. Considering the ranges of the typical engagement, ground support missions must be a harrowing task for any pilot, having to drop bombs and strafe areas with pinpoint accuracy as his own guys are literally yards away from his target. Much better then, to use what little air support Marines have to interdict enemy reinforcements before they reach the battlefield. That is: remain off-table...

I agree here, we're getting to a stage where 40K's getting too big to play in our regular gaming locations. There was a time when 6X4 seemed awfully empty a lot of the time, it's starting to get awfully crowded in that space, but bigger tables will become increasingly impractical for players. Where fliers really do win out is in apocalypse where, their speed can make them a real asset.

f2k
28-05-2012, 18:01
I really can't see why people think that a military organisation like the Astartes wouldn't have this kind of vehicle, they're supposed to be able to fight any enemy in virtually any arena of conflict.

Thereíre many rules governing the Empire and not all of them make sense.

Space Marines are, for example, not allowed to maintain true space fleets. As in: fleets designed for fleet engagements in deep space. They may maintain breakthrough fleets and landing vehicles Ė thatís it.

In essence, and by extension, the Stormtalon encroaches upon the Navyís domain by emplying a unit that performs a function thatís normally left for the Navy to perform.


40K has, until very recently, ignored or explained away the likely impact of air superiority on it's ground battles, it doesn't mean it's not important.

In truth, airpower should have very little impact on the kind of battles weíre fighting in 40K. The ranges are simply so short, the armies practically start within firefight/close combat range, that the impact of aircrafts on the battle would be very limited.

In Epic, this is another issue and there aircraft are better represented on the battlefield.


Assuming that a squadron or two of your favourite Imperial fighter are available for such a mission, remember the Astartes often operate alone and even if involved in a combined arms situation are quite regularly first respondent, they can't rely on the Imperial Warmachine to be fast enough to help.

As I said above, aircraft should not have much influence on the kind of battles we fight.

A Battlebarge or Strikecruiser will penetrate the enemy defences at a single point. Thunderhawks will be deployed as a space-to-surface carrier, it will use its weapons to clear the immediate area around the dropzone, the Space Marines will engage the enemy at close quarters, the Thunderhawk will return to pick up survivors.

At no point is air superiority needed.



I honestly doubt the Codex Astartes would prohibit the use of any and all useful resources providing they don't break other , wider, prohibitions (like AI or Daemon Weapons). For example, even the Ultramarines use the Crusader pattern Land Raider which is a post Codex design. Also there's Hellfire rounds, which are the direct result of Anti-Tyranid research. There are probably other example but those two stick out in my memory.


Iím sure the Ultramarines would have loved to have some true deep space combat capable spacecrafts during the Tyranic War. Yet, theyíre specifically forbidden from having that.


I agree here, we're getting to a stage where 40K's getting too big to play in our regular gaming locations. There was a time when 6X4 seemed awfully empty a lot of the time, it's starting to get awfully crowded in that space, but bigger tables will become increasingly impractical for players. Where fliers really do win out is in apocalypse where, their speed can make them a real asset.

Indeed. The game has come a very far way from its skirmish roots.

Veteran Sergeant
28-05-2012, 18:03
I’m sure the Ultramarines would have loved to have some true deep space combat capable spacecrafts during the Tyranic War. Yet, they’re specifically forbidden from having that.Is there a source for this? I'm not disagreeing, I've just never read about a specific preclusion.

f2k
28-05-2012, 18:34
Is there a source for this? I'm not disagreeing, I've just never read about a specific preclusion.

Battlefleet Gothinc Armada, page 20:

[Talking about events just after the Horus Heresy] ...a compromise was reaches which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assaults.

And on page 25:

[Describing the Nova class frigate] ... the Nova class frigate is commonly the single class to which the Imperial navy take the most exception. It lacks sufficient size to really fulfil the deployment and assault roles for which Space Marine ships are primarily intended and it lance armament and speed makes it a menacing gunboat in its own right. As such, the Nova remains rare in most Space Marine fleets, a trend the Imperial navy, the Inquisition, and other institutions perpetually concerned by the balance of power would dearly love to see continue.

Also, as I recall, some of the older codices had a few titbits on the time immediately following the Heresy and on the formation of the Space Marine Chapters. Codex Ultramarines, Codes Sisters of Battle, Codex Assassins and a few other had a bit of information on the division of power that happened just after the Heresy and after the Age of Apostasy.

Chem-Dog
28-05-2012, 23:57
In truth, airpower should have very little impact on the kind of battles we’re fighting in 40K. The ranges are simply so short, the armies practically start within firefight/close combat range, that the impact of aircrafts on the battle would be very limited.


True in some ways, but not in others. Air superiority is often about suppressing troop movements, observing and intercepting them before they get into contact with friendly ground forces or at least giving the ground forces enough of a warning to bug out or dig in.
A twenty minute pre-game suppression phase dedicated to this kind of action just because a flyer or two is included would be very tedious.
But there's also close air support, which is what I was really driving at, having a gunship on hand to act as a bodyguard or big brother is incredibly handy. It happens that I believe that a majority of the aircraft we have don't suit this kind of supporting role at all well, it's not the arena for supersonic fighters.


A Battlebarge or Strikecruiser will penetrate the enemy defences at a single point. Thunderhawks will be deployed as a space-to-surface carrier, it will use its weapons to clear the immediate area around the dropzone, the Space Marines will engage the enemy at close quarters, the Thunderhawk will return to pick up survivors.

At no point is air superiority needed.

Unless the Marines risk being pinned/obliterated by airborne units either capable of direct attack or acting as spotters for artillery. Or even as recon to out manoeuvre the Astartes. If the Marines are involved in anything more protracted than a "stop, drop and roll" they'll need different forms of support.


I’m sure the Ultramarines would have loved to have some true deep space combat capable spacecrafts during the Tyranic War. Yet, they’re specifically forbidden from having that.

I'm pretty sure that Marneus Calgar did actually oversee the entire fleet action over (around) Macragge and was in functional command of the whole lot even if his Astartes weren't present on a majority of the ships. But that's neither here nor there, point is that Guilleman who was pivotal in the formation of the post Heresy political landscape of the Imperium, wouldn't have left his Astartes without room for adapting to new scenarios as evidenced by the freely adopted new pieces of wargear.


Battlefleet Gothinc Armada, page 20:

In essence, and by extension, the Stormtalon encroaches upon the Navy’s domain by emplying a unit that performs a function that’s normally left for the Navy to perform.

[Talking about events just after the Horus Heresy] ...a compromise was reaches which limited the Space Marines to vessels whose primary role was that of transport, delivery and suppression designed to facilitate planetary assaults.

You're right, of course, but it's quite obviously talking about Warp-capable interstellar warships not a one-man gun boat that's probably not even capable of interplanetary travel let alone anything interstellar. So therefore I'd argue that it falls entirely outside of the "compromise" and far from compromises the distinction between "Marines" and "Navy". Well, that's how I interpret it anyway.

de Selby
29-05-2012, 00:29
I just bought one of each for 25% off :)


It looks very space marine-ey to me. Blocky, angular, very heavily armored. They're just very slowly moving away from having all space marine vehicles look like a container.

If you look at the old thunder hawk gunship design it's so rectangular it looks like a flying container. They're slowly moving away from that esthetic for space marines. I'd say the Storm Talon has a lot of design in common with previous space marine vehicles while expressing a very clear desire to move away from those aging designs. It's still covered in angled surfaces and heavy armor but there's more angles softening up the design a bit.

It's a good step forward. Not quite as ugly and aging as the old stuff but not such a leap that it's no longer recognizeable as space marine.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. You can see their ideas have evolved even since the Stormraven. I'll still tweak the weapons though.

ehlijen
29-05-2012, 02:46
I really can't see why people think that a military organisation like the Astartes wouldn't have this kind of vehicle, they're supposed to be able to fight any enemy in virtually any arena of conflict. 40K has, until very recently, ignored or explained away the likely impact of air superiority on it's ground battles, it doesn't mean it's not important.


It's for the same reasons the Legions were broken up into independent, less well coordinated chapters: To limit the danger a repeat of the Horus Heresy could pose. The Imperium is laughably paranoid about that happening and takes great steps to make sure no one man commands the forces neccessary to threaten more than major one system at a time. The guard can't move without the navy. The Navy can't take worlds without the guard. And the marines can't stay in long fights without the bulk of the guard or the shield of the navy. Yes, it makes them less able to react quickly to threats, but that's the tradeoff for insurance against treachery.



Assuming that a squadron or two of your favourite Imperial fighter are available for such a mission, remember the Astartes often operate alone and even if involved in a combined arms situation are quite regularly first respondent, they can't rely on the Imperial Warmachine to be fast enough to help.


That is why all their transport assets (space and areospace) are heavily armed and armoured. If they had dedicated fighters, they wouldn't need more than unarmed Arvus Lighters for ferrying duties. Instead they have Thunderhawk fighter-bomber-transports.




I honestly doubt the Codex Astartes would prohibit the use of any and all useful resources providing they don't break other , wider, prohibitions (like AI or Daemon Weapons). For example, even the Ultramarines use the Crusader pattern Land Raider which is a post Codex design. Also there's Hellfire rounds, which are the direct result of Anti-Tyranid research. There are probably other example but those two stick out in my memory.

The codex is less concerned with new technologies than it is with preventing individuals from acruing the power to carve out their own realm. Strict seperation of jurisdiction is one of the major dictations of the codex astartes. Nothing says marines shouldn't adapt to the enemy. As long as they leave the navy's job to the navy and the guard's job to the guard.


True in some ways, but not in others. Air superiority is often about suppressing troop movements, observing and intercepting them before they get into contact with friendly ground forces or at least giving the ground forces enough of a warning to bug out or dig in.


Things low orbit vessels with bombardment cannon are also quite able to perform.



Unless the Marines risk being pinned/obliterated by airborne units either capable of direct attack or acting as spotters for artillery. Or even as recon to out manoeuvre the Astartes. If the Marines are involved in anything more protracted than a "stop, drop and roll" they'll need different forms of support.


Marines are rarely asked to do more than that and they do have adequate support in the form of thunderhawks (which actually pull fleet antifighter escort duty in BFG, so why not in the atmosphere?) and ships armed with dedicated orbit to ground bombardment cannon. In a pinch, they could even just rain down some deathwind droppods into enemy airbases.




I'm pretty sure that Marneus Calgar did actually oversee the entire fleet action over (around) Macragge and was in functional command of the whole lot even if his Astartes weren't present on a majority of the ships. But that's neither here nor there, point is that Guilleman who was pivotal in the formation of the post Heresy political landscape of the Imperium, wouldn't have left his Astartes without room for adapting to new scenarios as evidenced by the freely adopted new pieces of wargear.


And should Calgar have given heretical orders, the navy captains in command of the ships in his task force would have been expected to attack him for it (and would have been expected to win as the navy is meant to have all the imperiums purpose built space combat vessels). That's why they're navy trained and indoctrinated, rather than by the chapter itself: to prevent/reduce personal loyalty to a marine. Nothing says Guard or Navy commanders can't chose to take orders from a more experienced overall commander from another branch. But they always have the authority and duty to reject any order they don't feel are for the Imperium's best interest from sources outside their own chain of command.

The resistance to new technology is not enforced by the Imperial government, but by the admech. That's an entirely different story. New tech is fine to the High lords, as long as the balance of power between the branches is kept. A marine invents a new dedicated fighter? He should hand the plans to the navy and get back to marine work, basically.




You're right, of course, but it's quite obviously talking about Warp-capable interstellar warships not a one-man gun boat that's probably not even capable of interplanetary travel let alone anything interstellar. So therefore I'd argue that it falls entirely outside of the "compromise" and far from compromises the distinction between "Marines" and "Navy". Well, that's how I interpret it anyway.

The Navy is also sole provider of atmospheric figher craft and heavy bombers. Again, the point is so that it can contain/destroy any upity guard or marine force with treacherous intent. Marines were allowed armed thunderhawks to facilitate their rapid strike nature. But the inefficient nature of those craft for the fighter and bomber roles as well as due to the multi mission requirements means a chapter can't challenge the navy for air superiority in the long term, which is as the navy and the codex want it to be.

murgel2006
29-05-2012, 12:05
Well, I can live with the Necron thing. It is very current design. Not appealing to me from an aesthetic point of view, but something to be afraid of....
The Ork aircraft looks, ... ehm ... like an ork air craft, so that is good and I really hope to see my firestorm in the next Eldar codex (people around here often go for not codex- no play)
I like the Stormtalon very much. It looks definitely Marine for me. A marine ORCA so I love it.

Major_Manny
29-05-2012, 15:14
Is it just me that really doesn't fancy having flyers in standard 40k games?

Haravikk
29-05-2012, 15:21
Well, I'm one of the many people who don't really like the Stormtalon which has its own thread already. It's not that I completely dislike it, the kit has potential if the Assault Cannon fitting is removed and the missile pods selected and repositioned slightly, however, I just don't like its rules, its half-assed backstory (which goes against existing fluff), and I don't like what it adds to the game (nothing). I'd have much rather seen marines with a vanilla Storm Raven profile and an anti-air option instead, either that or the Stormtalon being a true close-support craft rather than just a flying tank/land-speeder 2.0.

I quite like the Necron flyer, the version with the wormhole generator seems like it could be a fun option in-game, and the model is cool. Pilot looks a bit weird in that position, dunno if I'd maybe try to convert it to have a canopy or maybe just make it unashamedly cylon in appearance with a central control unit of some kind, there must be some suitable spare bits somewhere.

I do however really like the Ork flyer(s), both in terms of rules and by them having hands-down the best kit of the three, plus the better value by the looks of it since it seems you get more in it.


However…


Is it just me that really doesn't fancy having flyers in standard 40k games?

I completely agree with this. Flyers, while cool, don't fit into 40k at all. Heck, they don't really fit into tabletop games either as they're awkward to use in practise, and in gameplay terms they (Fast Skimmer "flyers" in particular) are very annoying and pretty much invalidate the use of terrain and deployment as tactics. I really hope 6th edition puts the focus back on infantry, but if GW are determined to push flyers then I'm kind of worried we'll end up with more mech dominance than ever. Vehicles are cool to have as centre-pieces, but when armies become increasingly vehicle dominated 40k gets less and less fun.
I much preferred it when 40k was just to represent a slice of the action where the fighting is thickest, or an important objective is present etc., as you're free to imagine a larger campaign going on beyond the table edges, with dogfighting in the skies and so-on. The Apocalypse flyers better capture this, and if the bolt-on flyers for vanilla 5th edition end up with apocalypse-like rules in 6th then it might not be so bad, but the last thing I want are gunships making most other units irrelevant.

GrogDaTyrant
29-05-2012, 15:37
The Ork aircraft looks, ... ehm ... like an ork air craft,

I humbly disagree in that regard. It looks like someone's botched attempt to take a generic 'Jet' kit, add a disturbingly small pile of rivets to it, put an Ork pilot inside, and call it an Ork plane. To me it looks particularly half-arsed, model-wise, and would benefit most from being used as parts to build something more convincing.

Thanatos_elNyx
29-05-2012, 15:59
Stone Rhino posted these in another thread. It looks like he improved the Thunderspud's look with a couple of changes.

141414

141415

Very nice, if I ever get one, which I probably won't, this is how I would do it.

Chem-Dog
29-05-2012, 18:28
It's for the same reasons the Legions were broken up into independent, less well coordinated chapters: To limit the danger a repeat of the Horus Heresy could pose.

But we're talking about a relatively small, one-man aircraft, a negligible asset in the scope of galaxy spanning rebellion. I understand the idea that the Astartes were intentionally hobbled to prevent Heresy MkII but preventing them from performing their duties is a different thing altogether.


That is why all their transport assets (space and areospace) are heavily armed and armoured. If they had dedicated fighters, they wouldn't need more than unarmed Arvus Lighters for ferrying duties. Instead they have Thunderhawk fighter-bomber-transports.

In limited numbers. For the space a T-Hawk inhabits during transit you could probably house half a dozen of the 'Talon. Deploying Talons instead of T-Hawks mean you're not risking what is, essentially, your only way of ferrying your troops around, it also allows you to divide them between different battle zones, where a T-Hawk might be too big a target or just overkill.



The codex is less concerned with new technologies than it is with preventing individuals from acruing the power to carve out their own realm. Strict seperation of jurisdiction is one of the major dictations of the codex astartes. Nothing says marines shouldn't adapt to the enemy. As long as they leave the navy's job to the navy and the guard's job to the guard.

No argument on this point, save to say that often the Marines don't have the luxury of hanging about for the Navy or Guard. Rendering them utterly incapable of dealing with specific threats during an interim when they are the only forces at hand would lead to lots of very dead Marines and a lot more worlds subject to exterminatus.



Things low orbit vessels with bombardment cannon are also quite able to perform.

Assuming the orbital craft are able to get within reach and aren't held back by enemy fleet, orbital or ground based anti-orbital batteries. There's also the issue that any potential targets to for orbital attack are defended by things like Void Shields, sometimes the battle's are about getting to, and neutralising those assets so that the guys in the sky can get a clean shot.




Marines are rarely asked to do more than that and they do have adequate support in the form of thunderhawks (which actually pull fleet antifighter escort duty in BFG, so why not in the atmosphere?) and ships armed with dedicated orbit to ground bombardment cannon. In a pinch, they could even just rain down some deathwind droppods into enemy airbases.

Drop Pods are something of a one-shot weapon if the enemy have more "airbases" than the Marines have Drop Pods, there's going to be a problem. You could task your T-Hawks to go and collect them but....wait, you can't, they're being shot down but the enemy air-power still at large or desperately supporting the ground forces against them.



And should Calgar have given heretical orders, the navy captains in command of the ships in his task force would have been expected to attack him for it (and would have been expected to win as the navy is meant to have all the imperiums purpose built space combat vessels). That's why they're navy trained and indoctrinated, rather than by the chapter itself: to prevent/reduce personal loyalty to a marine. Nothing says Guard or Navy commanders can't chose to take orders from a more experienced overall commander from another branch. But they always have the authority and duty to reject any order they don't feel are for the Imperium's best interest from sources outside their own chain of command.

Yeah. The whole point of segregating and modularising the Imperium's forces was that there'd be more stops and checks. Not arguing that at all.


The resistance to new technology is not enforced by the Imperial government, but by the admech. That's an entirely different story. New tech is fine to the High lords, as long as the balance of power between the branches is kept. A marine invents a new dedicated fighter? He should hand the plans to the navy and get back to marine work, basically.

My argument, from the start, is that a fighter (not that this is what I'd call the 'Talon) doesn't increase a Chapter's ability or propensity towards going rogue, renegade or outright traitor. It doesn't even affect a Chapter's ability (or lack thereof) to fight a void battle or exert influence/force outside of it's predetermined sphere of concern, it simply allows them to perform the duty they have been given and in this it in no way contravenes any constitutional limitations place upon the Astartes by the Codex, a fleet accord or any other rule of law you care to name. It's too small to upset the balance of power.




The Navy is also sole provider of atmospheric figher craft and heavy bombers. Again, the point is so that it can contain/destroy any upity guard or marine force with treacherous intent. Marines were allowed armed thunderhawks to facilitate their rapid strike nature. But the inefficient nature of those craft for the fighter and bomber roles as well as due to the multi mission requirements means a chapter can't challenge the navy for air superiority in the long term, which is as the navy and the codex want it to be.

The addition of a single fighter won't upset that balance, not in the long term.

Eldartank
01-06-2012, 04:50
I haven't posted for awhile, but this "flyer" thread caught my attention. I always liked flying models. So I have a small collection of Eldar Grav Tanks, a couple Valkyries, an Imperial Lightning Fighter, a Dark Eldar Razorwing, and a couple Stormravens. I am definitely getting the new Necron, Ork and Space Marine flyers that are coming out. I have Necron and Space Marine armies. That new Ork flyer is so cool, I may actually start putting together and painting the various unassembled Ork models I have and start an Ork army.

ehlijen
01-06-2012, 05:40
But we're talking about a relatively small, one-man aircraft, a negligible asset in the scope of galaxy spanning rebellion. I understand the idea that the Astartes were intentionally hobbled to prevent Heresy MkII but preventing them from performing their duties is a different thing altogether.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. We're not talking about one or a small number of fighters. We are talking about the ability to maintain extended air superiority over any number of active engagement zones a chapter might find itself involved in. Whether or not your armies have fighter cover 24/7 for months is a big deal. And yes, in order to prevent Heresy MkII the marines' abilities are drastically curtailed. It's the price paid for a little piece of mind.


In limited numbers. For the space a T-Hawk inhabits during transit you could probably house half a dozen of the 'Talon. Deploying Talons instead of T-Hawks mean you're not risking what is, essentially, your only way of ferrying your troops around, it also allows you to divide them between different battle zones, where a T-Hawk might be too big a target or just overkill.

And that is why the Navy is ok with the marines having hawks. Because without the talon, they are not cut out of the process of making the imperial warmachine function effectively. The fact that it can't do so without the navy is a deliberate choice, however stupid it may seem to a present day military commander.


No argument on this point, save to say that often the Marines don't have the luxury of hanging about for the Navy or Guard. Rendering them utterly incapable of dealing with specific threats during an interim when they are the only forces at hand would lead to lots of very dead Marines and a lot more worlds subject to exterminatus.

The Marines are not supposed to take and hold worlds. They are meant to destroy command assets and smash open gates. If more than that is needed, you shouldn't have called the marines yet in the first place. Better to wait for the guard and navy to be ready before attacking at all. Or if you can't wait, do a smash and grab and let the guard create a new beachead amongst the hopefully still disorganised leftovers.


Assuming the orbital craft are able to get within reach and aren't held back by enemy fleet, orbital or ground based anti-orbital batteries. There's also the issue that any potential targets to for orbital attack are defended by things like Void Shields, sometimes the battle's are about getting to, and neutralising those assets so that the guys in the sky can get a clean shot.

If any space craft in the imperium can make it, it's the marine fleets. That's what they're built for. The BFG rules and background clearly support that while inferior in fleet engagements, marine vessels are the best the imperium has for low orbit engagements. And even if they need ground support to take out targets, that's still short term missions.


Drop Pods are something of a one-shot weapon if the enemy have more "airbases" than the Marines have Drop Pods, there's going to be a problem. You could task your T-Hawks to go and collect them but....wait, you can't, they're being shot down but the enemy air-power still at large or desperately supporting the ground forces against them.

You don't have to take out the whole planet. Only the area you actually want to fight in. Again marines are not sent to take planets, just to neutralise key targets. The hawks shouldn't stay in the fight long enough to be worn down and force concentration should mean they don't face overwhelming odds.


Yeah. The whole point of segregating and modularising the Imperium's forces was that there'd be more stops and checks. Not arguing that at all.

My argument, from the start, is that a fighter (not that this is what I'd call the 'Talon) doesn't increase a Chapter's ability or propensity towards going rogue, renegade or outright traitor. It doesn't even affect a Chapter's ability (or lack thereof) to fight a void battle or exert influence/force outside of it's predetermined sphere of concern, it simply allows them to perform the duty they have been given and in this it in no way contravenes any constitutional limitations place upon the Astartes by the Codex, a fleet accord or any other rule of law you care to name. It's too small to upset the balance of power.

Having their own effective air force means a chapter can try and attempt to take planets, as opposed to just weakening them followed by an immediate retreat, without the Navy's approval as it frees up the hawks and space vessels to operate elsewhere. Without the talon, the navy rests secure in the knowledge that no full invasion is possible by rogue imperial factions without the help of someone they've put through loyalty screening/indoctrination. If the marines have a fighter force, they don't need the navy's help and suddenly the navy doesn't know when or where the marines might try and take a world. That's a big difference.


The addition of a single fighter won't upset that balance, not in the long term.
Again, it's not the addition of a single fighter, but of the idea of a dedicated air superiority asset.

I agree that this kind of force seperation isn't conductive to decisive response times and no sane military on earth would operate like that (even the USMC has access to fairly capable fighter craft with the F/A18). But the imperium of man isn't a place for sanity. As it stands, the treachery rate amongst space marines runs at about 50%. It's a small wonder that the Imperial government wouldn't like them being able to take worlds unless they approve (via guard and navy support).

snottlebocket
01-06-2012, 14:04
I just put my dakka jet together. I think it's pretty much impossible not to pick it up and wave it around your desk for a bit.

The ork pilot heads are fun, they nailed pretty much every pilot stereotype. There's one with a commissar type leather cap, one with a flapping scarf, a classic leather hat and goggles and one wearing top gun pilot glasses with a mic headset.

Spider-pope
01-06-2012, 15:30
Having seen an assembled Storm Talon at GW Liverpool this afternoon, i must say the photos do not do it justice, its much, much better in person. The Ork fighta-bomma is still the best of the three, but i'd rank the Storm Talon ahead of the Necron flyer now.