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tw1386
06-05-2012, 00:02
Ok, this is a bit of a funky situation... Granted, I know shooting attacks always hit the unit and / or randomized if there is a situation that calls for it.

Anyways, my point being is it possible to force rerolls of ward saves units like Phoenix Guard, Chosen, Bretonnian Knights, and what have you from close combat shooting hits like Impact Hits, Breath Weapons, Terrorgheist / Banshee Screams, Stomps, and the like?

I was playing a block of chosen with the 3+ ward with a character of mine in base contact and impact hits came rolling along with it. I just assumed that there wasn't a way to get him to re-roll some of the saves,and treated the models in base contact essentially as characters (can't target them out) since there was 12 chosen left. I just randomly thought of this and wanted some others opinions on this question.

Also, another question regarding the same item, in order for the said characters unit to get the benefits of re-rolling successful ward saves I'd have to specifically mention it and direct the attacks that are capable of hitting the models in base contact?

And no I'm not one of those players that tries to squeeze every advantage out of the rules to be in my favor, I just thought it was a curious situation since there really is nothing about targeting specific models in a unit except for characters and champions, hence why I just treated them as characters and that I could not do it until the model count was low enough to "randomize" it.

Spudlow
06-05-2012, 05:27
I wont say I'm an authority on the rules but I'll tell you how I look at it.

Even though impact hits, stomp, thunderstomp are distributed as per shooting, they are still close combat attacks. You are killing the models in the front rank and then other models are stepping up in their place. Since the shard forces a re-roll for all models in base contact, the models in the front row (which you are attacking) would have to re-roll the saves.

That's my take.

Aluinn
06-05-2012, 06:02
Comments redacted; Godless is correct that it doesn't matter whether anything counts as a close combat attack or not with regard to OTS. OP mislead me on it and I failed to re-read the rules for the stupid thing. The issue of wound allocation is applicable but that's been dealt with.

T10
06-05-2012, 13:18
Hits from shooting attacks are allocated to specific models. Usually these hits are allocated by the owning player, though templates causes hits on the models touched.

In most cases these hits are allocated to rank-and-file, in which case casualties are always removed from the rear of the unit even if the hits were allocated to other models.

This final abstraction makes it easy to skip the part where you assign identical hits to identical models and instead deal only in numbers: "This unit takes six hits, and suffers three casualties."

Where the Other Trickster's Shard is involved, the owning player can elect to allocate as many hits away from the affected models as possible and minimize the effect of the Ward save re-roll.

-T10

Spudlow
06-05-2012, 16:09
I would have to say that VC howls/shrieks (Banshee, Terrorgheist, Skabskrath, and Mortis Engine) are not close combat attacks; they are described as "special attacks that are made in the shooting phase" (emphasis mine), which by RAW makes them neither close combat nor shooting attacks, oddly enough. They're something else entirely. So as I read it the OTS has no effect when it comes to these "weapons".

I agree with you on that one. I was referring to impact hits, stomp, and thunderstomp.


For the rest, well, the conservative answer is obviously that the OTS has no effect on anything that is not clearly described as a "close combat attack", and in the absence of a FAQ/errata answer, it's usually best to take the conservative interpretation to avoid exploitation--not in all specific cases, because not all specific cases really present opportunities for exploitation, but overall. Realize that if you start taking liberal interpretations than you tacitly permit your opponents to do so as well and it may really come back to bite you, especially if they decide to get "creative".

I wasn't inferring that they were close combat attacks, but rather making the observation. I should have included the quotes in my original post. BRB pg 71 bottom right - Resolving Impact Hits "Finally, as Impact Hits are close combat attacks..." and BRB pg 76 top left - Stomp "...inflicts 1 automatic hit, at the model's Strength, on one enemy infantry, war beast or swarm unit in base contact with the model."

If I'm not mistaken the OTS says "All models in base contact must re-roll successful ward saves". Since the attacks are close combat attacks, they have to be made on models that are in base contact and as such they would have to re-roll.

You could argue that thunderstomp is made against the unit and not a specific model, but it is treated exactly like stomp so it must also be a close combat attack.

T10
06-05-2012, 16:49
You don't get to direct stomp and impact hit attacks specifically to models in base contact.

Imagine if the first rank consisted only of characters and the rest of the unit was 20 rank-and-file. The impact hits and stomps would have to be allocated to the RnF models as per the rules for allocating shooting hits.

GodlessM
06-05-2012, 17:20
Why are people arguing what is and isn't close combat attacks? Last I looked OTS made models in base contact re-roll successful wards, not models suffering close combat attacks. There seems to be a lot of this recently where people are arguing irrelevant rules when something much more basic is making the whole thing moot (see Kroxigor thread).

T10
06-05-2012, 17:37
I thimk he is suggesting that impact and stomp attacks are close combat attacks and must be distributed as shooting hits among the (few) models in base contact. I might be wrong.

tw1386
06-05-2012, 19:17
Why are people arguing what is and isn't close combat attacks? Last I looked OTS made models in base contact re-roll successful wards, not models suffering close combat attacks. There seems to be a lot of this recently where people are arguing irrelevant rules when something much more basic is making the whole thing moot (see Kroxigor thread).

I agree, I should of posted the rule verbatim. I'm not sure where the idea of it only working in close combat comes from, oh well.

If I have a vampire with skabscrath and the other trickster's shard, and he's fighting a greater demon or the like, that demon would definitely have to Reroll the ward saves from any type of attack, shooting / magic / close combat.

I guess I should restate my question, if you have few models left in the unit, some of which are affected by the shard do you randomize these attacks?

NitrosOkay
06-05-2012, 20:10
Wait since when are Stomp attacks distributed as shooting? It says in the rulebook they are an extra close combat attack allocated against a model in base to base contact.

Impact hits sure but looking at the rules why can't you direct stomp attacks?

Actually reading it again it does say unit, I guess I've been playing this wrong.

T10
06-05-2012, 22:03
I agree, I should of posted the rule verbatim. I'm not sure where the idea of it only working in close combat comes from, oh well.

If I have a vampire with skabscrath and the other trickster's shard, and he's fighting a greater demon or the like, that demon would definitely have to Reroll the ward saves from any type of attack, shooting / magic / close combat.

I guess I should restate my question, if you have few models left in the unit, some of which are affected by the shard do you randomize these attacks?

No. The attacking model picks which enemies he wants to attack.

Notice that casualties caused against rank-and-file troops are always removed from the rear, so usually you won't be removing the models in base contact with the charactere with the OTS.

tw1386
07-05-2012, 01:24
Sorry meant to say shooting attacks.

DaemonReign
07-05-2012, 04:28
From the Official Rulebook Errata:

Q: Do Breath Weapons benefit from any other special rules,
equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p67)
A: No to both questions.

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.

Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.

So hopefully it's very clear to everyone at this point that the Other Trickster's Shard would not give any benefit to Breathe-Weapons or Stomps of any kind.

Lord Inquisitor
07-05-2012, 04:40
Simply put, no one knows how the OTS interacts with units with ward saves. The rulebook doesn't account one way or the other how to deal with part of a unit that still have the same profile but affected by a rule that causes rerolls. It's a big deal in some combats but unfortunately there is no definite resolution without a FAQ.

DaemonReign
07-05-2012, 04:46
@ Lord Inq: What's the big mystery here? The OTS forces opponants to re-roll their wardsave (if they have one) against wounds caused by the Close Combat attacks of the wearer.
Didn't I just post the relevant FAQ entries just above your post?
The OTS is a Magic Item. (?)

T10
07-05-2012, 06:57
From the Official Rulebook Errata:
So hopefully it's very clear to everyone at this point that the Other Trickster's Shard would not give any benefit to Breathe-Weapons or Stomps of any kind.

I don't think the OTS directly affects these attacks: It applies a penalty to the models in base contact regardless of whether they are allocated any hits. It's powers are not associated with the attacks made by the bearer.

It's a blanket effect in many ways similar to a hex spell that reduces the Toughness of the target unit.

Munin
07-05-2012, 06:58
@DR
I think you missed a few things here. OTS doesn't specify anything about close combat attacks, it just says that you reroll successful ward saves if you are in base contact with the bearer.

Secondly, Stomps etc doesn't benefit from special rules and items, however OTS doesn't affect the stomp but rather the opposing players saves, hence it can still be used. However it rarely will since the receiver will be able to allocate the attacks as he wish and would likely assign them to a model not in base contact with OTS.

T10
07-05-2012, 07:02
It seems I've voiced my opinion on this earlier:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?295961-The-Other-Trickster-s-Shard-vs-Unit-wide-Ward-saves&p=5366335&viewfull=1#post5366335

-T10

Yowzo
07-05-2012, 10:51
Secondly, Stomps etc doesn't benefit from special rules and items, however OTS doesn't affect the stomp but rather the opposing players saves, hence it can still be used. However it rarely will since the receiver will be able to allocate the attacks as he wish and would likely assign them to a model not in base contact with OTS.

Now look at this scenario, I had precisely that on a game a couple of weeks ago.

Block of chosen gets a front charge by trolls and flank charge by an orc warboss on wyvern with the OTS.

Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch
Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch Warboss on
Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch-Ch Wyvern
Troll-Troll-Troll
Troll-Troll-Troll

The way we played it, the wyvern's thulnderstomp got the full benefit of the OTS, while only one stomp from the trolls (the one in the corner, which aso was in base contact with the wyvern) got ward save reroll.

Our reasoning was that even though stomps are distributed as shooting attacks, you need to be in base contact with the unit to trigger it (no supporting attacks) so they would definitely trigger the OTS ability.

If, say, a mangler squig passed through a unit engaged in combat with a character with the OTS and made enough hits so that minis in base contact with the OTS were allocated hits, they would reroll ward saves as well. Same with a miscast or a scattered artillery template.

Lord Inquisitor
07-05-2012, 13:57
@ Lord Inq: What's the big mystery here? The OTS forces opponants to re-roll their wardsave (if they have one) against wounds caused by the Close Combat attacks of the wearer.
Didn't I just post the relevant FAQ entries just above your post?
The OTS is a Magic Item. (?)
No it doesn't affect attacks of the wearer. If that's what it did, all the issues with the OTS would be resolved. It forces all models in contact to re-roll ward saves, regardless of who or what attacks them. As such it doesn't actually directly benefit the stomp or breath weapon. Just like if someone was, say, affected by a spell like soulblight, then the -1T would apply to the unit and that would still be in effect when hit by a stomp or breath weapon. However, a spell that provides +1 strength to the attacking unit would not apply to the breath weapon as it would count as a special rule. The OTS doesn't benefit a stomp or breath weapon directly, it's more like a hex that affects the enemy - the enemy would re-roll regardless of who inflicts the hit - a spell, models in the same unit, a scattering stone thrower hit, so on.

So in some cases, a model would re-roll Wards when attacked by stomps or breath weapons. If a single model (e.g. a greater daemon) is in base contact with a model with OTS, then they will obviously re-roll all Wards while in base contact and that would include breath weapon attacks. Equally when the entirety of a unit is in base contact with the OTS bearer things are easy.

What happens versus a unit when part of the unit is in contact, however, is anyone's guess. There is NO RULE that covers this situation, as the models technically still have the same profile as the rest of the unit.

DaemonReign
07-05-2012, 15:16
Ah yes.. I realized this morning after I had made my post that the OTS effects 'models in base contact', not just attacks made by the carrying model.
Now I understand what the confusion is coming from.
Still, the wording of the OTS does not explcitly say anything that 'over-rides' or nullfies the FAQ entry about Magic Items and 'unusual attacks'. It's just that the mechanic (as described for the OTS) is completely contradictive to the FAQ-answer.
This reminds me of the Gift Awesome Strength (that gives the Daemon Strength 10 - period) but since that Strength value is suddenly defined as a 'special rule' by the FAQ you still ThunderStomp with Strength 6.
Just to exemplify another instance where the FAQ sort of misses its mark in my opinion.

Anyway, two ways of interpreting this I suppose: Either we simply go with the usual FAQ trumps AB trumps BRB (and then we simply have to ignore the 'wording' of being in 'base contact' with the OTS for the purpse of Stomps/Breatheweapons)..
OR we allow the 'contradiction' to grant us a more intuitive resolution whereby 'anything in base contact' re-rolls their successfull Wardsaves regardless of the source of the damage.

I get the dilemma! :) It's indeed a mystery.

Lord Inquisitor
07-05-2012, 15:50
Right. It's just part of the bigger question - how the heck does the OTS work when part of a unit is in contact? Are all attacks made against one or more models in base contact "flowing through" to the rest of the unit, effectively meaning all attacks made from anyone that can allocate to at least one OTS-affected model? Or is it the first X where X is the number of models in contact? Or do you treat the OTS-affected troopers as separate profiles, so wounds won't "spill over" to affected and unaffected models? It can make quite a bit difference.

Yowzo
07-05-2012, 16:13
Right. It's just part of the bigger question - how the heck does the OTS work when part of a unit is in contact? Are all attacks made against one or more models in base contact "flowing through" to the rest of the unit, effectively meaning all attacks made from anyone that can allocate to at least one OTS-affected model? Or is it the first X where X is the number of models in contact? Or do you treat the OTS-affected troopers as separate profiles, so wounds won't "spill over" to affected and unaffected models? It can make quite a bit difference.

For purposes of stomp/t-stomp/impact hits we decided it would make sense for OTS to activate.

For anything else distributed as shooting, I guess we would have to count how many models are in base contact and kind of randomize between in contact with OTS and not in contact.

DaemonReign
07-05-2012, 18:27
@Lord Inq and Yowzo:
Right. It's just part of the bigger question - how the heck does the OTS work when part of a unit is in contact?
That part seems 'clear enough' to me:
1 - If we assume that the Rulebook FAQ 'over-rides' the 'in base contact' wording of the OTS-mechanic, the these 'unusual attacks' are distributed as shooting, and the target unit (with wardsave) would have to first be sufficiently small for 'randomization' to take place.
2 - If we instead decide to ignore the Rulebook FAQ (deeming it impossible to super-impose it on the OTS due to the 'in base contact'-wording) then it obviously effects at least Stomp-attacks and Impact Hits (given that these arguably are distributed from one base to the other) where-as with Breath-weapons attacks we go back to Shooting-rules of course (randomization if sufficiently small).
Everything that takes damage from Stomp or Impact Hit is most definately "in contact" with the source of the damage(!) - models 'step up' and take damage in sequence (in case the damage is greater than the number of wounds initially in base contact). There are other Daemonic Gifts that work like this (Nurgle Section - I never use them) according to the FAQ, so it's not completely unprecedented! - However, none of those Gifts interact with Stomp/B-weapons because Daemonic Gifts (just like Magic Items) are special rules unless specifically stated otherwise. Like Awesome Strength - you get Strength 10 (not a special rule - the Gift could say you got +4 Strength but it doesn't!) but since Gifts are special rules and no special rules interact with Stomp/B-weapons *bla bla bla*.. :)

Now admittedly the OTS is even more counter-intuitive than the Awesome Strength Gift.
But it's the same train of thought here - I'd almost say it's a RAW vs RAI thing..

I repeat one of the 3 FAQ entries that I qouted before:

Q: Do special rules that can inflict hits in close combat, such as
Stomp and Breath Weapons, count as close combat attacks? (p42)
A: No they count as an unusual attack and will be distributed
as a shooting attack.