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Fruhauf
09-05-2012, 18:19
Hey, so I currently play most frequently against a friend who has lizards... our point battles range from 1k to 2k but we normally gravitate around the 1600 mark because it's easy to divide into quarters and still a reasonable size.

My problem is he pretty much ALWAYS death stars by having a 20 temple guard unit with a slann with 3 disciplines, kitted with a few extra things. He then backs this is up with an engine of the gods and minimum core spend in ~20 skinks and ~20 saurus.

He normally puts his temple guards and slann in the middle-ish with the engine nearby and either unit on his flank.

No matter what I seem to do, without also taking a death-star style unit, I can't get a good win on him. I'm tactically more acute but still very new to this army. I've tried a super buffed up combat vamp and had some success but in a second game I tried it he just magic raped the bunker using the engines 2d6" range d6 str 5 hits per unit, which also manages to eat up most ethereal chaff I deploy (I put the lord in with Black Knights sometimes but again his engine is pure nasty at low points)

I normally take a 'gheist which screams away and has some success but again with no saves he can normally deal with it before turn 3.

My last list looked something like this;

Characters;
2x Master Necro, both level 4. one death, one vamps.

1x Vamp hero, kitted out to be a fear bomb.

Core;
40x zombies + standard.
20x zombies + standard. Master Necro vamp general went here, being protected by the unit of 40 just infront
40x skeletons hw/s + standard. vamp hero and other necro went here

Special;
20x GG w/ gw

1x Corpse Cart


And the last game;

we played dawn attack, so deployment wasn't great, I had to deploy my skeletons on one flank and 'gheist on the other, but by and large the rest went in the middle.

40x zombies sat infront of CC + 20x zombies went on the safer flank (the one furthest away from his nastiest stuff)

Now granted he got very lucky as I charged his engine with my 'gheist, screamed it but rolled snake eyes and then in combat took it to 1 wound, he then on his turn charged it with temple guard (WOULD I GET A STAND AND SHOOT HERE? - WE THEORISED NO BUT WE WERE WILL STILL NOT SURE) and managed to bounce all my hits on the engine so it survived and he combat res killed the gheist. On the other flank my super zombies n skeles dispatched his core during my turn 1 but it was due mainly to some awesome corpse cart work. I sadly pursued his skinks but rolled massive with 40x zombies so they were effectively out of the game for a few turns, in which time he just used sheer brute force, rolled well with winds of magic and got the free power dice per spell with slann thing so managed to mop me up pretty quickly from here on in. My GG got charged so suffered impact hits from steg, he had used magic (lore of life) to bring it's wounds back to near full too, the engines nasty 2d6" range d6 str 5 on undead thing did more damage and made for pretty light work of the rest of my army.
I did however manage to beat his temple guard in a war of attrition against my skeleton hoard, I broke him once and he ran (amazingly) but I fell short of catching him, he then killed my unit with magic (vamp and necro included) on his next turn after reforming.

It seems, when against this list, unless luck works my way (which granted, snake eyes with a 'gheist was a potential game saver for him, along with not catching his unit!) I can't score a good win that generally speaking my play deserves.

Can anyone give any C+C?

Thanks!

Frankly
09-05-2012, 19:47
Characters;
2x Master Necro, both level 4. one death, one vamps.

1x Vamp hero, kitted out to be a fear bomb.

What items are you using? Really you need to overpower that slann anti-magic, which is best done by mort engine, BP, srcoll and/or stone. Your not trying to make a huge powerhouse phase, but a consistant one that can constantly put pressure on his dispel dice.

I don't think fear bomb is a better option than enhancing the primary strength of the list by putting those points towards the magic phase.

If your taking 2 x lvl4s then make sure you control the game from the magic phase.





Core
40x zombies + standard.
20x zombies + standard.

Special;
20x GG w/ gw

1x Corpse Cart



That core selection is abit to heavy over your specials and our specials are is were we win games.

I'd suggest running some proxy games with zombies proxied as GG to bring the unit up to 30 atleast.

Think about enhancing your magic, maybe what can get it running consistantly against a slann.

Mikael.K
09-05-2012, 20:13
what lore is he using? 20 temple guard doesnt sound like much. Surely nothing a blender lord wouldnt be able to handle. Put him on a hellsteed or give him wings and charge him solo into the temple guard. He should make a nice dent into that unit every single turn and then get in grips with his slann. Purple sun seems to do the trick aswell :P.

Looking at your list, its a bit flimsy to say the least. Zombies and skellies wont stand up to saurus, no matter how buffed they are. 20 GG are too small and should be a prime target for the slann. See where im going? You dont seem to have any threats apart from magic.

Fruhauf
09-05-2012, 22:07
What items are you using? Really you need to overpower that slann anti-magic, which is best done by mort engine, BP, srcoll and/or stone. Your not trying to make a huge powerhouse phase, but a consistant one that can constantly put pressure on his dispel dice.

I don't think fear bomb is a better option than enhancing the primary strength of the list by putting those points towards the magic phase.

If your taking 2 x lvl4s then make sure you control the game from the magic phase.





That core selection is abit to heavy over your specials and our specials are is were we win games.

I'd suggest running some proxy games with zombies proxied as GG to bring the unit up to 30 atleast.

Think about enhancing your magic, maybe what can get it running consistantly against a slann.

Problem with his magic is that regardless of rolls, he gets a free power dice per spell because of his stupid disciplines, plus he takes a whole lore... he can normally get 4-5 spells of per turn, with me dispelling 1, maybe 2 at tops.

Also with core, I took the minimum I could, 60 zombies + 40 skeletons + banners = 400 points the way I had it set up.

With regards to mortis engine, it was that or the terrorgheist and right now i'm loving the gheist. I fear-bombed the hero lord and took a few items, the bound vanhel's, glittering scales, charmed sheild... I think that was about it. I didn't put anything on the necro's as I had 400 points of lords so couldn't put more on, it was the first time I ran a dual MN list and it worked out ok, in all honesty, if my gheist scream worked better I would have wrapped the game up from the start.


what lore is he using? 20 temple guard doesnt sound like much. Surely nothing a blender lord wouldnt be able to handle. Put him on a hellsteed or give him wings and charge him solo into the temple guard. He should make a nice dent into that unit every single turn and then get in grips with his slann. Purple sun seems to do the trick aswell :P.

Looking at your list, its a bit flimsy to say the least. Zombies and skellies wont stand up to saurus, no matter how buffed they are. 20 GG are too small and should be a prime target for the slann. See where im going? You dont seem to have any threats apart from magic.


He used life last time, the 20 temple guard is all he can fit in at 1600 points once he reaches minimum core + engine of gods etc.

I tried a solo vamp lord but he countered it relatively well with the engine + slann combo, the special effects of it (d6 s5 hits) wear out a vamp lord when coupled with the hits from both the temple guard and steg.

I get what you say about the zombies and skellys, but I disagree to some degree, Skellys + CC = always strike first re-rolls (higher initiative) I managed to out kill his saurus with . However, I only have 20 GG models and currently 20 ghouls in the post on the way (0 at the time of this fight)

Thénon
09-05-2012, 22:34
What kind of killy vamp lord do you take?

I find a vamp lord/w +3 at sword, potion of strength, enchanted shield, heavy armour, quickblood, redfury and stead.

Charge that steg with 8 str 8 attacks, refills to hit and extra attacks per wound. See if it dosnt pop in one go.

Plus he can hold his own against units unless you roll horrendus in combat. :P.

As to the slann. Life is great and all but it only has one offensive spell. If you've took the lord above a couple of necromancers (both lore of vamp) one with dispel scroll, the other with the bound dance macabre item. And everyone with Sig spell. You'll be able to pump zombies/skellies out like no tomorrow. Crush his units under weight of numbers.

Bog those temple gaurd with skellies and get your gravegaurd to deal with the core. Once your vamp lords burst through the steg Chuck him into the temple gaurd and blend them through.

anthioram
09-05-2012, 22:41
It seems your problem lies on the engine of the gods. Remember it only works if the skink priest is alive, and a blender lord should be able to kill the priest in one round of combat; you can use potion of strenght too, that should kill the stegadon in one round.... Just charge it with your lord, if he declares to flee (can he?) just redirect against his bunker and watch him kill his way to a solid vitory...
I've used a blender lord at 1600pts games with great success before, the one i use looks like this:

Vampire lord, heavy armour, barded nightmare, enchanted shield, sword of might, dawnstone, potion of strenght,quickblood and red fury.

Fruhauf
09-05-2012, 22:47
It seems your problem lies on the engine of the gods. Remember it only works if the skink priest is alive, and a blender lord should be able to kill the priest in one round of combat; you can use potion of strengh too, that should kill the stegadon in one....

Perhaps this hasn't been picked up upon, but thanks, this makes things so much easier... if a good lord makes it to the steg I will kill the beast, if a unit makes it then I will kill the priest. Many thanks!

-Totenkopf-
09-05-2012, 22:49
i agree with most of the comments here. For this particular fight, cut the big zombie unit, cut some skellies, add ghouls and beef up the grave guard. You also have way too many points in characters for the points level, drop a necromancer and add a unit of vargheists or some other harder hitting threat.. Heck, even more ghouls.. 30 ghouls, 30 skellies, 20 zombies and 30 gravegaurd with +1 to hit banner, 4 vargheists. try that as a base.. those vargheists can turn 2 charge and kill that steg.. throw in a naked unit of black knights for skink hunting.. also give the vamp, if you take one, shadow for the debuffs

Fruhauf
09-05-2012, 22:50
Sounds pure evil, I'll give it a try next time, cheers!

Moss
09-05-2012, 23:27
I would drop those zombies (unless they're just necro bunkers and never see combat) or swap them out for skeletons (if you still need to fill out core). They're just free combat res for lizardmen. And they're not even very good tarpits against saurus/TG since they rarely last longer than a turn in combat.

As a LM player, I often have problems finding an answer to the combat vampire. Put him in a bus of 40 skeletons and beeline for the Slann. It might take all game depending on how magic goes for both of you, but he'll eventually hack through that unit.

Don't forget that you can target the skink priest in combat. It may be worth it to throw a unit away by charging the stegadon just to try and kill the priest, making the EoTG useless. Especially since you should outnumber him unit-wise.

As mentioned, the fear-bomb can be dropped. The guy has got rerollable, coldblooded leadership 9/10 checks. Getting him to fail a fear check is an uphill battle that is probably not worth the points. I mean, yeah you can take items to negate cold blooded and the BSB, but it really isn't worth the points in my opinion.

ewar
09-05-2012, 23:39
As has been pointed out, the engine is very easy to deal with - once the skink is gone it doesn't function. I'd go for multiple low level casters against LM - it takes away the benefit of Becalming (which I guess is the 3rd discpline?). You're spending way too many points on level 4s at that points level.

That LM list will struggle against anything you've got which is decent in combat i.e. a tooled up vamp with black knight bodyguard. Perhaps try shadow/death magic to deal with the engine, then you're laughing. We also struggle against Ethereals. I know the engines ability is decent against them, but that's one of the few tools LM have and it's very short ranged. A few solo spirit hosts can be great chaff to block units etc.

Edit: don't forget if the Slann flees he is destroyed immediately (for being the BSB, which is pretty much mandatory, so I assume your opponent does this...)

Fruhauf
09-05-2012, 23:43
I would drop those zombies (unless they're just necro bunkers and never see combat) or swap them out for skeletons (if you still need to fill out core). They're just free combat res for lizardmen. And they're not even very good tarpits against saurus/TG since they rarely last longer than a turn in combat.

As a LM player, I often have problems finding an answer to the combat vampire. Put him in a bus of 40 skeletons and beeline for the Slann. It might take all game depending on how magic goes for both of you, but he'll eventually hack through that unit.

Don't forget that you can target the skink priest in combat. It may be worth it to throw a unit away by charging the stegadon just to try and kill the priest, making the EoTG useless. Especially since you should outnumber him unit-wise.

As mentioned, the fear-bomb can be dropped. The guy has got rerollable, coldblooded leadership 9/10 checks. Getting him to fail a fear check is an uphill battle that is probably not worth the points. I mean, yeah you can take items to negate cold blooded and the BSB, but it really isn't worth the points in my opinion.

Good advice to get from a LM player, but my opponent doesn't take a BSB like ever... he also isn't tactically brilliant and I can normally get his skinks and saurus out of the generals range so with things like Beguile tests I can get them at a -5, I know it's not the be all and end all as it's only beguile but it means my vamp + crap core had no problems mowing through his core (yeah, my skeletons + zombies took out ALL of his core before turn 2... I made some nice charge rolls + corpse cart boosts). I think for sure I will target the priest next time. Out of interest, does his crew count towards combat res if I kill them too?

Hoshiyami
10-05-2012, 00:38
Temple guard isn't inmune to psychology? That fear bomb isn't going to help against this death star, and saurus & skinks... you shouldn't need that help with them (it helps, but it's an expensive help in this case).

Also, I agree 2 lvl 4 necros are a bit too much invest at 1600 points. You can field some nice attack lords that (with a little help) could wipe the whole deathstar unit.

Remember though that the skink priest has a 2+ AS. You'll be way better with something that ignores them (killing blow, VERY high S, wraiths). The crew is 'unkillable' as it is a character ridden charriot. You must kill the T6 monster. Bear in mind that if he plays his cards right, a hero level vampire would be in dire danger against it, but that it has a Ld of 6 against death basic spell (or banshee screams if he's far away from their slann).

Moss
10-05-2012, 01:59
I could be mistaken, but I don't think the crew is unkillable. The character simply replaces a member of the crew, and you may target and kill the crew of a stegadon. Remember though that the stegadon is stubborn, and you probably won't make him flee anyway.

And yes, though the priest does have a 2+ AS, he still has WS and T 2, so you're hitting him on 3+ and wounding on 3+ or even 2+. You should be able to take him out with a crapload of mediocre attacks.

Mikael.K
10-05-2012, 11:20
You sure the steggy can use the slanns LD vs banshees/gheist scream attack? You test against the units Ld value, but it´s not a Ld-test per se. To summarize: the slann can kill your army, but your vamp lord can kill most of his, so give him a go ;).

Wbarobinson
10-05-2012, 13:34
Do not field ghouls, you are not going to win combat. I think your core should just be a massive zombie tarpit. Stuck the slann in it, kill his chaffy units and win the game. Level 4 casters is wrong... Go for a bunch of small ones like it was said. Also, ghoulking is a better bet for combat lord at this lvl I think. But because the vamp lord can get ws 9, that totally screws the TG. Otherwise, gk with fencers, dragonbane, potion, red fury, flying. Turn two charge with potion. Steg shoulg be dead turn 1 with 20 inch fly and scream... Ethereals will Waste lizardmen once it is down.

hazmiter
10-05-2012, 14:05
Lords choice, blender lord.
Heroes, 2 lv2 or 3 lv1 necro spam.

(raise dead is always a good one to use at all times, free skellies, or homebrew zombies, and you don't have to spend points o. them )
Rare, mortis engine, regen is invaluable.... As is its +2 to cast lore of vampire spells.

diggerydoom
10-05-2012, 14:43
Does he take any salamanders? If not, be greatful!

Luvadin
10-05-2012, 16:11
I have a friend that's going to start a LM army and he'll sure be getting salamanders. I was thinking of using Vargheists to hunt them down, but first I would like to know exactly how Stand and Shoot works for their flaming ranged attack. Is it 2d6 hits like if it was used in combat or is it as a normal template attack? Thanks!

N810
10-05-2012, 16:57
It is most similar to a flame cannon or warpfire thrower in the way it shoots with a template,
(it is not a breath attack and it doesn't get stand and shoot)

Luvadin
10-05-2012, 18:46
OK, thank you for the information!

Wbarobinson
10-05-2012, 22:13
Vargheist are awesome against salamanders... You can stomp em too... Vargeist in general are good vs. lizz.

Moss
10-05-2012, 23:26
Does he take any salamanders? If not, be greatful!

Yeah you didn't mention salamanders, which is usually the first thing people complain about. No salamanders and the fact that he doesn't upgrade his Slann to a BSB are two big favors that he's doing for you.

hazmiter
11-05-2012, 02:59
Well blender lord has the +3attack sword, and red fury...
Any one thought about allowing heroic killing blow plus potion of str.....

Mikael.K
11-05-2012, 06:48
So you would drop all your attacks for a potential KB? I know I wouldnt. Massed attacks with potion of strength with red fury will do the job just fine :).

Fruhauf
15-05-2012, 20:15
Played 2 games with him today, took on a lot of advice from you guys, took 2x lvl 2 necros and a lvl 2 vamp combat lord + a mortis engine... in short, I scored two crushing victories with both times having eliminated all TG.

Thanks a lot for your help, it's now his turn to change his list to beat me :P

I also took a horde of 30 GG, with invocation spam it was basically at full strength at the end of both games.

hazmiter
15-05-2012, 21:26
Good going.

Mikael.K
16-05-2012, 19:08
So, what happened? :) Guess the blender lord made an impression :P.

N810
16-05-2012, 19:41
Lol after that beating expect to see six salamanders in his next list. :p