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Whut
14-05-2012, 23:45
So I'm going to try to keep this thread away from "Waaaah! Waaaaaah! WoC are OP :cries:" as best as I can.

Issues to deal with when facing WoC:

1) Chosenstar - everyone knows this will be on here, so might as well be first. This has been complained about time and time again and remains THE most unkillable unit in the game.

2) Saves EVERYWHERE. Important characters have 2+/3++ saves, Wizards have 2+/4++ or better saves, Warshrines have 3++ saves! Nothing is susceptible to anything less than a hard dedicated combat monster unit.

3) Characters on Disks. These just fly around destroying chaff and overall are unkillable because they gut anything that can catch them, and everything else can't. Not to mention they often have 2+/4++ saves or sometimes better. Some of the best and most effective points denial I have ever seen.

4) Marauders with GW and MoK - by far the most cost efficient unit in the entire game. Two WS4 S5 attacks for 5 points per model? Are you kidding? Why was this not FAQ'd in 8th?

5) Hellcannons. Pretty obvious here.

6) Death Magic. Because WoC don't need much magical help to win combat, they can just focus all of their efforts into getting rid of YOUR buffs.

7) Very little dependence on General range. Unlike O&G, Ogres, and other armies who are restricted in the Movement phase because of low on Leadership or have units with stupidity, every WoC block (I haven't seen trolls in awhile) can act independently with lots of flexibility during the deployment phase of a game.

_____
Now the obvious answers still exist, but don't really work like they do against other armies. Redirection is a great tactic, but only works if your chaff isn't already destroyed by magic or Disc characters, and even if you do catch a horde of Marauders (for example) off guard, they are most likely still steadfast because they are so cheap and the enemy just flanks you with a unit that is better than yours. If you try to redirect a Warrior block, they just fly over a Disc character to tie up your unit for a turn (seeing as how he will take basically no damage from most units and thus will win or tie combat on the charge because his profile is way too strong). And so on...


Anyway, what army is best fit to deal with Warriors of Chaos, and how?

Lord Dan
14-05-2012, 23:49
What army do you play, what do you often take in your list, and how many points are you playing at?

Even better would be, if you have time, give us an army list and some quick rundowns of the last couple of battles you played. What problems did you run into? What seemed to be the game changers? Are other people in your group having problems with WoC as well?

MyNameDidntFit
15-05-2012, 00:21
5) Hellcannons. Pretty obvious here.

Everything else I can understand you having some issues with, but what's the deal with Hellcannons being on here?

Whut
15-05-2012, 01:42
Well that is the thing, I'm planning to start a new army so I just want whichever one has the best chance against WoC. 2000-2500 points, but mostly 2500.

Hellcannons: For ~200 points you get a S5 stone thrower. This stone thrower is also a monster, meaning A) once combat hits it is not useless, and B) it is not only immune to the scouts/fliers/fast calv one normally uses to get rid of warmachines, but will also tear through them, C) It does not auto-die to Initiative spells, D) it has essentially a 5+ ward save against cannon shots because of handlers, and E) it has more wounds than your average warmachine. It is also not only just a monster, but is also unbreakable, toughness 6, and has a half-decent save. AND causes terror.

The cannon part of it once again I repeat is S5. Not only this, it causes panic no matter how many casualties it causes, WITH a -1 modifier (plus other Ld modifiers available through magic and a banner).

And lastly, the misfire chart.
1) Bad, but most good warmachines have at least a 1/6 chance of getting a "die" result, some have 1/3 chance. The S5 hits doesn't do much to WoC or hordes of 50 marauders.
2) Cool. Your monster just got a TON faster, but can still just as easily stay in General range if you want to shoot it.
3) You gain an advantage against your opponent because while he most likely needs magic to beat you in combat, you don't need magic to beat him. Plus if you have the Puppet this result might as well be "remove all magic from your opponent plus half of several of his units."
4) 2/3 chance of "who cares?" 1/3 chance of see #2
5) Who cares?
6) You remove the majority of your opponent's unit because the shot is immediately a direct hit at S10, and then you continue being a monster as if nothing happened.

Its the only warmachine I have ever seen that causes its controller to be ECSTATIC when he rolls a misfire.

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 02:29
Skaven walk over Warriors with contemptuous ease. Knights and Monsters? Warplightning cannon will zap those well enough. Warriors and Chosen? The single best target for the Dreaded Thirteenth ever! Marauders? Skaven may have a few template weapons.....

They are the only army that I really really dislike facing with my Warriors. Lizards are very tough too, but with Lizards it feels like a fun tough game, playing against Skaven feels like I'm a 7yr old kid in a Wheelchair trying to fight a gang of champion Boxers.

Actually, I'll just do quick rundown of all the armys from an experienced WOC generals perspective.

Beastmen - Actually a reasonably tough match up. Gor Herds are usually very big, and can grind through Warriors. They also kill tonnes of Khorne Marauders before they even strike. Knights do well against Gor, and Marauders do well against Bestigor. Hellcannon is gold in this matchup. Big blocks of infantry, and if they stray out of LD bubble, they are on a ropey LD7.

Bretonians - Not an easy match-up, but one I feel confident in. If you charge them, you will win. If they charge you, you just need to hold them a turn, and they won't be able to kill anything without the Lance bonus. They are tough to kill though, S5 isn't that great against Brets, they get a 4+/5++ which is quite tough.

Daemons - Bloodthirsters are tough. If no Thirster, I'm looking for a big win. Warriors outfight Daemonic Infantry. Try and land the Hellcannon on the Thirsters head. Even if you don't hit him, sometimes the mere threat of this is enough to make the Daemon player hide Billy.

Dark Elves - Shooting doesn't do much to Warriors, nor does the Hydra. Mindrazor is the biggest issue here. I'd say just an ok match up.

Dwarfs. Decent match up, We can get 2 GW Marauders for every Dwarf Warrior, and Warriors and Knights can weather alot of the shooting.

High Elves - Same as Dark Elves, decent match up but watch out for Mindrazor and White Lions!

Lizardmen - Double Slann is tough, Scar Vets are horrid and it's hard to get into their points. They won't usually beat you by a lot, but I'd say this is a poor match up.

Ogre Kingdoms - Good match up. They fight, you fight, you fight better. Ogres can beat Warriors, but usually you should be alright. Mournfangs hate S5.

Orcs and Goblins - Just an ok match up. Doom Divers murder knights, and Fanatics and Manglers are annoying and devastating vs Warriors. However, Savage Orcs are the only unit they have that can fight WOC, so when you get to the army, you'll often make back the points you lost on the way in.

Skaven - Eurgggh.

The Empire - A better match up with the new book. Easier to kill the Stank, less bloody thrice cursed Speculums around, no S5 Helstorms (God they were horrible). Watch out for the Demigryphs though.

Tomb Kings - A good match up. Knights and Casket are nasty, but you can mash through them reasonably well. Not an auto win, but definetly in your favour, as you often win combat so crumbling+ lots of dead undead.

Vampire Counts - Same as Tomb Kings, but watch out for Screams.

Wood Elves - A good match up, unless you have just Marauders. Wood Elves struggle with Armour, especially 1+ saves, and they have little combat power to threaten ours.

Just some thoughts, off the top of my head.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 02:43
I can't let you pick an army just because it's good against another army. List some armies that interest you, and from there we can discuss the advantages and disadvantages (within the context of your concerns in the first post) with that army against WoC.

Whut
15-05-2012, 02:56
Well, whichever one will never make me feel like I've already lost at deployment.

For example, when Brettonia deploys against undead, daemons, or skaven (things they can't break on the charge), sometimes it just feels like Brettonia might as well forfeit immediately.

Any kind of similar situation I NEVER want to find myself in. I always want a fair chance to win.

I would however prefer not to do Skaven, just because of money.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 03:06
You don't find one army to be cool looking, or have interesting background, or better looking models over another? Give us an idea of where to start and I promise we won't lead you down the wrong road.

Whut
15-05-2012, 03:06
I'm interested in this double-slann you speak of. Wouldn't that be overloading points on magic (assuming 2500 point range)? What would a typical double slann list look like?

Whut
15-05-2012, 03:08
You don't find one army to be cool looking, or have interesting background, or better looking models over another? Give us an idea of where to start and I promise we won't lead you down the wrong road.

No, I really don't have any theme I particularly like more than the others. I really like them all, for me it only comes down to how each army plays.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 03:13
I'm interested in this double-slann you speak of.

*facepalm*

Whut
15-05-2012, 03:18
*facepalm*
Well I don't know whether or not I would like to play it, I just want to know the concept.

For example, I really enjoy my O&G, but at the same time I don't like how much the army relies on keeping everything within range of the General (and it just ends up being a cluster#%$! of units). The army works most of the time, but playing it is meh.

If the Double - Slann ends up being the same then I'm probably not interested, but first I just want to see.

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 03:23
Here is a pretty standard Double Slann list, Slann blast things and buff things, Scar Vets run around solo and cause Havoc, Skinks poison the world with a million poisoned shots, Salamanders template things, Terradons nuke chaff and Warmachines and the Saurus mop up what's left. You have a heap of tiny units worth no points, and everything is cold blooded, so can operate solo decently.

Slann Mage-Priest (General); Lore of Light, The Focused Rumination, Earthing Rod.
Slann Mage-Priest; Battle Standard Bearer, Lore of Metal, Soul of Stone.
Saurus Scar-Veteran; Cold One, Light Armour, Burning Blade of Chotec, Charmed Shield, Dawnstone.
Saurus Scar-Veteran; Cold One, Light Armour, Great Weapon, Dragonhelm, Amulet of Itzl, Venom of the Firefly Frog.
Skink Priest; Lore of Heavens, Cube of Darkness.

29 Saurus Warriors; Full Command.
21 Skinks; Musician.
21 Skinks; Musician.
10 Skinks
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers
10 Skink Skirmishers

3 Terradon Riders
3 Terradon Riders
9 Chameleon Skinks
8 Chameleon Skinks

2 Salamander Hunting Packs

2400pts total.

Wbarobinson
15-05-2012, 03:30
Single slann is good enough
450 on slann,
400 on temple guard
700 in saurus warriors (2 blocks h/s)
Max salamanders 450 (this is very dirty against woc)
Max mounted scar veterans 500
Chameleons to kill dogs if you like?

The scar vets decimate the hellcannons... The salamanders decimate the warriors... Magic is a win... And the 90 t4 4asave wounds are just there to mop up the bits...

As a lizardmen player, I am pleased to fight WoC because as an ex high elf player it gives me great vegenful pleasure.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 03:37
If the Double - Slann ends up being the same then I'm probably not interested, but first I just want to see.
The double slann list, as Rosstifer demonstrates above, is far nastier than any of the difficult points mentioned about WoC in your opening post. My concern is that if you go that route we'll end up with a string of ironic threads from your opponents entitled: "So how does one deal with double-slann lizardmen?"

Whut
15-05-2012, 03:39
Is a list like that actually able to destroy enough of an opponent's army that the opponent doesn't reach the unit with the 2 Slann in it?

Whut
15-05-2012, 03:41
The double slann list, as Rosstifer demonstrates above, is far nastier than any of the difficult points mentioned about WoC in your opening post. My concern is that if you go that route we'll end up with a string of ironic threads from your opponents entitled: "So how does one deal with double-slann lizardmen?"

Haha this made me laugh :)

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 03:53
Is a list like that actually able to destroy enough of an opponent's army that the opponent doesn't reach the unit with the 2 Slann in it?

God, don't put them both in one unit! Slann are infantry, just like Saurus and Skinks. Stick one whatever unit you want, say, the 20 skinks, and when most of that unit is dead, hop him in another unit.
You have so many units that you can jump around like that with impunity. If they don't have much shooting the Slann don't even need to go in units.

And yes, it's perfectly capable of killing most things, 90ish poisoned shots makes big holes, as do the salamanders. Timewarped Saurus are viscous, and you have Final Transmutation to kill a third of any unit you don't like the look of. Plus if you keep running away and moving backwards etc etc, they will never get into anything you don't want them too.

As Lord Dan said though, it's not the most friendly list in the world.

Whut
15-05-2012, 04:01
Well if it really is that unfriendly I'd like to stay away if possible.
So what other kind of stuff is there?

Though I don't think I'll be starting a skaven army, could someone give me an example of that? Just for knowledge's sake if anyone doesn't mind.

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 04:06
Heres a Skaven list that has actually made grown men cry (allegedly)

Grey Seer(General; Ruin and/or Plague), Earthing Rod; Obsidian Loadstone
Grey Seer(Ruin and/or Plague), Power Scroll

Warlock Engineer, Level 1 Wizard; (Ruin); Dispell Scroll
Warlock Engineer, Brass Orb
Warlock Engineer, Doom Rocket
Chieftain, Battle Standard; Banner Of Discipline

40 Skavenslaves, Musician
40 Skavenslaves, Musician
40 Skavenslaves, Musician
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
5 Giant Rats, Packmaster
28 Clanrats, Clawleader; Musician; shields; Ratling Gun
30 Clanrats, Clawleader; Musician; Standard Bearer; shields; Poisoned Wind Mortar

10 Gutter Runners, Slings; Poisoned Attacks
10 Gutter Runners, Slings; Poisoned Attacks

Hell Pit Abomination, Warpstone spikes
Warp Lightning Cannon
Plagueclaw Catapult

2398

I have alot of horrible lists saved on my PC so that just before a Tourney I can go through them and think up ways my list would deal with them. Bit sad, but hey, it helps.

This list will make you even less friends than the Lizard list. On the flip side, you will win pretty much every game you ever play!

Whut
15-05-2012, 04:13
Two seers? What is with all of these double caster lists? Have I been playing this game wrong?

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 04:16
It gives you massive flexibility in the Magic phase. 7-8 different spells from 2 different Lores. Plus with Skaven, it gives you a "Spare"Grey Seer. You can 6 dice Thirteenth Spell with the one that isn't the General, and then if he blows himself up, it doesn't really matter.

13713
15-05-2012, 05:23
As a Skaven player I must point out that even though the army is powerful and two level 4 casters is a blast to field. You must keep in mind that when things go bad, they go horribly bad. If you cannot accept that then Skaven is not the army for you. I know many players that have started with Skaven and have come to realise they do not like the fact that units are there to be sacrificed, bad roll's are catastrophic and individual units are horrible by themselves.

If you don't mind fielding a ton of models and can deal with possible nightmare scenarios from bad rolls go for it.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 05:33
I have alot of horrible lists saved on my PC so that just before a Tourney I can go through them and think up ways my list would deal with them. Bit sad, but hey, it helps.

That's actually a great idea. If you get a chance could you PM me what you have? I'm getting back into the tournament scene this month and don't have a great handle on what all is out there these days.

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 05:52
Will do, I'll collect them into a single folder and PM them to you after dinner!

Whut
15-05-2012, 10:32
Oh if you are going to compile it into another folder anyway would you mind PM'ing me too? This whole double caster thing blew my mind and just shows me I don't know as much about the fantasy meta as I would have like to claim.

Also, just because it is my most current army, is there anything O&G can do well in competitive play? My issue is that both my trolls and my squig herd require to be in general range, which really limits my mobility, and gets me stuck in situations I don't want to be in.

Renka
15-05-2012, 10:55
That's actually a great idea. If you get a chance could you PM me what you have? I'm getting back into the tournament scene this month and don't have a great handle on what all is out there these days.

I second this request!

Rosstifer
15-05-2012, 11:21
I'll gladly do so, but can't figure out how to attach things to PM's. Am I just being dense?!

Athlan na Dyr
15-05-2012, 11:38
Aren't Warriors getting redone reasonably soonish anyway? Must admit I haven't been keeping as up to date with the rumours as I once did, but later this year is what's going through the rumour mill at the moment.
The point of course being that most of what you're having difficulty with will probably be out the window, down the hall and scarpering off with your daughter in less than six months anyway, so why bother making an army to deal with such things?

Whut
15-05-2012, 17:10
Aren't Warriors getting redone reasonably soonish anyway? Must admit I haven't been keeping as up to date with the rumours as I once did, but later this year is what's going through the rumour mill at the moment.
The point of course being that most of what you're having difficulty with will probably be out the window, down the hall and scarpering off with your daughter in less than six months anyway, so why bother making an army to deal with such things?

Waiting for a problem to go away won't solve it. Being honest here, that really is the only thing I can say. Just because I know the problem will be gone in 6-10 months does not make me feel better now. At our friendly local tourneys or league games the same WoC player always comes first and I don't want that to keep happening.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 17:38
Waiting for a problem to go away won't solve it.

...but spending $500+ dollars does?

Whut
15-05-2012, 18:10
...but spending $500+ dollars does?
Again, I'm planning on starting a new army anyway.

Djekar
15-05-2012, 18:12
...but spending $500+ dollars does?

Money solves all problems - hail glorious Capitalism, may it forever reign!

On a serious note, I feel like if you are going to tournaments regularly (which it appears his is) and you want to get another army *anyways*, getting something that counters an army you hate to play isn't a terrible idea. Now, I'm not going to defend it as a great one either, but it might have some merit in there.

Gradek
15-05-2012, 18:29
Two things:

1) It could be the general and not the army. If the same guy is always winning with Warriors, maybe it is the guy playing them and not the army. Warriors are tough, but they aren't even top 5 right now (Demons, Dark Elves, Lizards, Skaven, and Ogres).

2) The chosenstar/knightstar builds are pretty broken, but are almost guaranteed to be gone with a new book, so designing an army to beat those may be a waste. I don't however think that the general statline of a warrior/knight is going to change much, and in that case you want to have an army that can soften them up before combat (ie magic or artillery).

Whut
15-05-2012, 19:01
Well considering when he doesn't bring his WoC he places lower, I don't think so. He is a very good player, but the army is just over the top in every way.

And again, just because something WILL go away, does not mean that it is not an issue now. (Not to mention we are talking many months in the future, not just a few days or a couple weeks)

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 19:10
And again, just because something WILL go away, does not mean that it is not an issue now.
Why exactly does this issue need to be dealt with at all? Sure, it means you won't win tournaments for a while, but completely ignoring the fact that in 6 months time it won't be an issue anymore seems short-sighted.

"Captain, it would appear that the time has come. Order a full attack on the castle."
"Sir, that seems premature. They only have enough food for 6 more months. We can starve them out without any losses if-"
"FULL ATTACK!"

Pick an army that is fun to play and strong overall, not one that is exceptionally good against an army that is likely to be a non-issue in October.

dutchwarlord
15-05-2012, 19:11
About the skaven list,
A horde of plague monks, with plaguefurnace is really good too! A doomwheel too. But it's just where you would prefer to play with. There are more ways to play skaven army...
A doomwheel is fantastic against chaos. It's really good at killing warshrines, knights and possibly hellcannons!

And Skaven are not that expensive if you buy the island of blood and sell the High Elves.

Whut
15-05-2012, 19:16
Also about that overpowered Skaven list, wouldn't it be weak against Ogres? As most of the power comes from the 13th (I assume) and the HPA, and Ironguts and other Ogre units are pretty good at fighting the HPA.

Whut
15-05-2012, 19:20
Why exactly does this issue need to be dealt with at all? Sure, it means you won't win tournaments for a while, but completely ignoring the fact that in 6 months time it won't be an issue anymore seems short-sighted.

"Captain, it would appear that the time has come. Order a full attack on the castle."
"Sir, that seems premature. They only have enough food for 6 more months. We can starve them out without any losses if-"
"FULL ATTACK!"

Pick an army that is fun to play and strong overall, not one that is exceptionally good against an army that is likely to be a non-issue in October.
Well I have stated that I don't want an army that JUST beats WoC, I want one that is both good in general and also good against WoC. I just don't like deploying my army just to sigh and take the auto-lose on turn 4-5.

Gradek
15-05-2012, 20:20
Well considering when he doesn't bring his WoC he places lower, I don't think so. He is a very good player, but the army is just over the top in every way.

And again, just because something WILL go away, does not mean that it is not an issue now. (Not to mention we are talking many months in the future, not just a few days or a couple weeks)

Here is where I disagree. WoC are hardly over the top. They are AT BEST the 6th best army right now. They have one ridiculous build (chosenstar), but even that is very vulnerable to all the no save magic that abounds in 8th and can still be held up by steadfast hordes.

Whut
15-05-2012, 20:27
How are all the things I mentioned in my first post not over the top, especially the nearly Unkillable Disc Characters and Marauders with 2 S5 attacks at WS4 (I4 helps against I test spells) for 5 points each?

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 20:30
How are all the things I mentioned in my first post not over the top, especially the nearly Unkillable Disc Characters and Marauders with 2 S5 attacks at WS4 (I4 helps against I test spells) for 5 points each?

I think his point is that WoC as a whole aren't broken in the way that Daemons were in 7th. Rather, you have an opponent who happens to take the strongest build, and the only way to beat that kind of ridiculousness is to build an army that is even nastier and less fun to play against.

Whut
15-05-2012, 20:43
I think his point is that WoC as a whole aren't broken in the way that Daemons were in 7th. Rather, you have an opponent who happens to take the strongest build, and the only way to beat that kind of ridiculousness is to build an army that is even nastier and less fun to play against.
Well then what do I do? It's just depressing that I can't win 1st place.

MyNameDidntFit
15-05-2012, 21:21
Here is where I disagree. WoC are hardly over the top. They are AT BEST the 6th best army right now. They have one ridiculous build (chosenstar), but even that is very vulnerable to all the no save magic that abounds in 8th and can still be held up by steadfast hordes.
This.

Nearly unkillable lords are naff if you use magic. Even a 3 or 4+ ward is failed 1/3 times and any sufficiently killy lord is going to mean your opponent has no Lvl4. Marauders are definitely undercosted at the moment, but they're hardly impossible to deal with.

While WoC are a powerful army, they're certainly not the army to beat. If no-one in your local meta can beat this player's army, perhaps it is not he who is at fault?

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 21:29
Well then what do I do? It's just depressing that I can't win 1st place.

Instead of investing in a whole new army, why don't we try to make your O&G more competitive? Can you post a list of what you typically run?

Whut
15-05-2012, 22:10
Well I had a slightly different one before, but here is my WIP O&G list now:
At 2500 points, I have 358 points left to spend, but I don't know what to spend it on.



Lords
#
Points







Savage Great Shaman, Lvl 4, Fencer'sBlades, ShrunkenHead
1
290







Orc Warboss, ASF Sword, Armor of Destiny, Dawnstone, Shield, Boar
1
242







Heroes
#
Points







Goblin Big Boss BSB
1
60







Night Goblin Shaman, Lvl 1, Dispel Scroll
1
75







Core
#
Points







Savage Orc Big-Uns w/ AHW, Standard, Music
40
460







Night Goblins + Music
20
95







Goblin Wolf Riders, Spears, Music
5
65







Special
#
Points







Squig Herd, 40 Squigs, 15 Goblins
55
365







Rare
#
Points







River Trolls
8
360







Mangler Squig
2
130



My biggest issue with my previous list is that both the Trolls and Squigs REQUIRE the General in range, and preferably the BSB as well. Since this causes a cluster**** this really lowers the movement capabilities of my army.

Lord Dan
15-05-2012, 22:50
Alright, here's what I would do:

Savage orc Warboss, 4+ ward, x2 HW
Orc Great Shaman, Lv. 4, Scroll

Orc Big Boss, BSB, Armor of Destiny, Shield
Savage Orc Big Boss, Shield
Savage Orc Big Boss, Shield

30 Savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
30 Savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
30 savage orcs, x2 HW, full command, big uns
19 Orc Boyz, musician

5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician
5 Wolf Riders, Spears, Musician

6 Trolls
6 Trolls
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

Lobba
Lobba

I have no idea what it comes out to.

Whut
15-05-2012, 23:24
If only...

You are only allowed 1 unit of BigUns of each unit choice (so only one SOBU unit of greatness).

Plus the Shrunken Head is very important because of the 5++ Ward it gives that one unit.

Also whatever you just wrote I would say (just at a glance) approaches 3500 points at least.

___

One last thing about the Lizardmen list. I see there 2 units of 20 Skinks and 1 unit of 10 Skinks. What purpose do they serve? Do they just walk up to something and throw javelins and then die? I can't see them being able to maneuver out of unit's arcs and still shoot, and they can't fight anything due to T2 and no save.

Lord Dan
16-05-2012, 03:35
If only...

You are only allowed 1 unit of BigUns of each unit choice (so only one SOBU unit of greatness).

Plus the Shrunken Head is very important because of the 5++ Ward it gives that one unit.

Also whatever you just wrote I would say (just at a glance) approaches 3500 points at least.

___

One last thing about the Lizardmen list. I see there 2 units of 20 Skinks and 1 unit of 10 Skinks. What purpose do they serve? Do they just walk up to something and throw javelins and then die? I can't see them being able to maneuver out of unit's arcs and still shoot, and they can't fight anything due to T2 and no save.

Okay, so drop the other two to non-big un's. I think you're putting way too much stock into a 5+ ward save, not to mention it's an expensive item that requires your Lv. 4 shaman be:
1. frenzied
2. running around with a unit bound for combat

By my count the list comes out to 2668, which means you can drop a chukka and two units of wolves to bring it in to 2500.

In the Lizardmen list the skinks are just chaff. The bigger units are to house the Slann when they need to, and the smaller one is to get in the way and redirect/hold units up for a turn. The skirmishers are the ones with ranged weapons, and with M6 (5?) they're easily capable of getting out of charge arcs.

Whut
16-05-2012, 10:39
But then won't my entire fighting force consist of 1 Unit of 30 SOBU and 2 Units of 6 Trolls? That's pretty weak. Also the chukkas might be a good idea but why lobbas? Thats 90 points down the drain just for the center shot (as the S3 template isn't so useful), nor is it accurate (like empire/dwarfs). And whats with all the big bosses? Those points really add up and against tougher enemies (HE elites, WoC, etc) the boss might just die before he gets to swing.

Morax
16-05-2012, 12:25
Ok so we've seen what you usually field, and it's a solid list (aside from the river trolls, think you would be better served with regular trolls and a few more boots on the ground). What I'd like to know however, would be what kind of list is your opponent fielding. You list several competitive elements of WoC but you would never be able to field all of them in the same army. The Chosenstar build alone costs close to 1k points, Knightstar more so.

Whut
16-05-2012, 17:13
Well I don't remember his usual list tbh, and he does switch it up a bit almost every tourney he plays. I can always see either 2 Cannons or 2 Warshrines, 1-2 Disc Heroes (I'm like 80% sure he actually builds 2-3 lists and just whip one out when he sees what the first scenario is, as in the last tourney the first mission was a 40k objective-type mission and he took 2 discs while he only ever took 1 in the past, and similar occurrences like this happened before) at lower points he runs a Tzeench warrior block with MR and the 5++ save standard to make them unkillable at range other than a few select spells, at higher points he takes the Chosen block. Other than that he fancies 50 marauders (sometimes 2 of these), Nurgle Knights with rage banner, and death magic.

And then there is his Death Magic, -1 Ld banner, Infernal Puppet, and Double hellcannon list that just makes your entire army flee or blow up by turn 3-4 unless you are ITP.

Gop
21-05-2012, 02:30
...Warriors are tough, but they aren't even top 5 right now (Demons, Dark Elves, Lizards, Skaven, and Ogres).

Argh! Why is so many people saying Demons are top 5? Fateweaver might scrape in with luck but generally from the dozens of games I've seen and played with them I find this claim unsubstantiated.

Lord Dan
21-05-2012, 02:55
Argh! Why is so many people saying Demons are top 5? Fateweaver might scrape in with luck but generally from the dozens of games I've seen and played with them I find this claim unsubstantiated.

...said the Daemons player.

Valaraukar
21-05-2012, 11:32
Argh! Why is so many people saying Demons are top 5? Fateweaver might scrape in with luck but generally from the dozens of games I've seen and played with them I find this claim unsubstantiated.

Because all these supposed tiers are made by 'competitive' players who base them around the most abusive list a given book can generate, if you face and use such builds regularly then they have 'some' relevance if not they are meaningless and all you can really compare is the sort of list you use versus your opponents and given your comments it may be you are playing with a slightly less powerful build than your opponents. This sort of mismatch due to poor internal and external balance of army books leads to most of the complaint type threads on Warseer.

Whut
21-05-2012, 18:59
Because all these supposed tiers are made by 'competitive' players who base them around the most abusive list a given book can generate, if you face and use such builds regularly then they have 'some' relevance if not they are meaningless and all you can really compare is the sort of list you use versus your opponents and given your comments it may be you are playing with a slightly less powerful build than your opponents. This sort of mismatch due to poor internal and external balance of army books leads to most of the complaint type threads on Warseer.

This is completely true. Too many people don't understand what a competitive build of an army is.

Anyone can say "Well Daemons suck because Beasts of Nurgle are bad."
Although I don't know a lot about Fantasy, I see it very clearly from a 40k point of view.