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View Full Version : Undead: What do i need to know?



Steel_Legion
01-05-2006, 17:26
I have a game on thursday with my Bretonnians against them, but since i have never played them, i dont know anything about them, what are the strenths/weaknesses of undead and how should i prepare to fight them?
:confused:

vcassano
01-05-2006, 17:59
Depends; Vampire Counts or Tomb Kings? Without this information, the only advice I can give is to load up on magic-defence.

General Samuel of the 101
01-05-2006, 18:04
well.undead cause fear,so i will be good to say that Peasants will be in Serius Trouble is they charge or get charged by Undead,
post your list so i can help ya better

Steel_Legion
01-05-2006, 18:42
Well its vampire counts i think, i think i was going to go for a lord with questing vow etc, 5 questing knights, 1 unit of KoTR and 1 unit of Errant, and possibly a damsel or something, i know he will have alot of skellies, and i wanted to go knight heavy
1000points

Fred_Scuttle
01-05-2006, 19:29
Good Evening Viewers!!!

If you could say what point level you were planning at that would help as well. VC armies are really more varried in power from 1000 to 2000 to 2500 to 3000 than other armies due to the dependance on characters.

Many armies are just about twice as strong at 2000 than at 1000 unless they decide to max out every possible character option. Most don't though, because good units are better in most armies. In VC though, the characters in a 2000 or 2500 army are really totally different and much stronger than in a 1000.

Fred

sephiroth87
01-05-2006, 20:00
1. Kill the general and the army crumbles.

2. Kill the necromancers and he can't raise more dead guys.

3. He will try to redirect your charges using small summoned zombie units.

4. His black knights hit as hard as anything you have, but their save isn't as good.

5. You want to send multiple units at one of his squads, so that in case you fail a fear test, you still get to charge.

Steel_Legion
01-05-2006, 20:03
thanks lots sephiroth87, can you recommend what units to get/avoid, is a trebuchet or questing knights good against em

Redvampire7
01-05-2006, 20:30
At this point cost nothing in the undead army should trouble you that much unless your opponent has swarms (both varieties). Bat swarms are fast and don't crumble and the spirit host can hold your knight units for a couple of turns. Avoid them. Also don't charge foolishly into his zombie line unless you're sure you're going to crumble them (combine charges).

Chase his necros. You've got the best necro killers in the game in the form of pegasii. If you don't have them or you can't afford their point cost go for some mounted Yeomen.

Errant knights are also a nightmare for undead if you manage to combine charges with them. Beware of the summoning and movement spells. Everything else you can afford to let pass.

A trebuchet could be good but I wouldn't recommend it. The reason is that no undead players that I know of (myself included) play without wolves or bats. These units are bound to reach the trebuchet in two turns. A couple of good shots though could ruin your opponent's day-especially if you hit his hammer units (Black Knights)

sephiroth87
01-05-2006, 20:32
Questing knights are great versus undead. Most undead units won't negate your save, but they will continually be raised up by your opponent. That meanst that you won't break them on the first charge. Great weapons do a lot to help you finish them off in subsequent rounds.

As for the trebuchet, it can be good against them, but I'd rather have more knight units. The more units you have, the more often you can flank them, which is the key to taking out the big ranked undead regiments. Do a bunch of wounds and negate their rank bonuses and you'll kill them.

Even more important, you NEED to win combat. If they outnumber you and win the combat, you're not even going to get to roll a leadership tests. They will autobreak you and run you down.

Knights Errant are brilliant against this army. They're fearless on the turn they charge, which means that they won't ever fail their fear test and stand there. A unit of 8 with a paladin works really well.

Most undead, with the exception of ghouls, never take leadership tests. Instead, they take a number of wounds equal to how badly they lost the combat by. So if you win by 8, you kill 8 more guys on top of what you already killed. This can lead to completely decimating a unit, especially if you flank them and negate their ranks. Small units of mounted yeomen, and errant or realm knights can be used to hammer the flanks of this army while your bigger stuff cleans up.

vcassano
01-05-2006, 20:36
I'd suggest Grail Knights due to tehir Immunity to Psychology. One idea would be to use a small unit of them as a suicide charge towards their general with other units (Mounted Yeomen, Pegasus Knights) peeling away the units around the general's unit. Pegasus Knights would be useful for hunting down lone necromancers and getting the flank charges that will allow you to avoid losing combat (and the inevitable fleeing because of that).

A couple of 25+ units of Men-at-Arms could be useful for ranks and outnumbering bonuses, but I doubt you have that many of them lying around because they are a duff unit most of the time.

Neknoh
01-05-2006, 20:41
A good idea is to use the virtue which removes his rankbonus, this will allow even a Kotr unit to blast through any large tarpit zombies he might send at you in a single round of combat (3ranks, standard and a boatload of kills should see the remaining unit crumble, if not the entire unit crumbles, he will next round).

Steel_Legion
01-05-2006, 20:50
i was thinking something like this:
1 Paldin w/ Great weapon
1 BSB, no idea what to give though
1 KoTR, about 8 strong
1 Errant Knight unit, 8 strong, errant banner
5 Questing Knights
Possibly pegasus, not suew how this will work in 1000, please post comments!

Latro
01-05-2006, 21:23
To give you an idea what 1000 pts of Undead could do:

Necro lvl 2, Cursed Book
Necro lvl 2, Black Periapt
Necro lvl 2, Book of Arkhan

20 Zombies, banner & musician
20 Zombies, banner & musician
20 Zombies, banner & musician

5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
5 Black Knights


- it has 9 dice to cast the summoning spell (2d6+2 zombies) 3 times each turn
- it has the movement spell as a bound spell, and 6 chances to roll it as well
- the Cursed Book will give your troops a -1 to hit within 6" inch of it
- your chances of getting a flank-charge on these undead are about zero
- your chances of getting bogged down in a tarpit-unit are rather large

The main problems you will run into are magic, fear and numbers ... and with your current list you will struggle to deal with any of them.


:cool:

Steel_Legion
01-05-2006, 22:16
magic - counter with a level 2 damsel?
fear - questing vows and errant knights
numbers - ....crud...how about the banner that doesnt let them outnumber?

fubukii
01-05-2006, 23:17
A decent lance of griail knights Will Pretty much tear apart anything they charge in the undead army. Take some peg knights to hunt down lone characters or flank charge.

Latro
02-05-2006, 08:09
magic - counter with a level 2 damsel?
fear - questing vows and errant knights
numbers - ....crud...how about the banner that doesnt let them outnumber?

- A Damsel with a couple of scrolls is always a good investement against Undead

- Do those protect a unit from the auto-break once you lose a combat? If they do, then go for it!

- Dunno, what does it do exactly?


Against Undead you have to make sure you can deal with either (or all) of the following situations:

1). Be able to grind their units into dust. To do this you need units that provide a lot of CR (static and/or combat) each round and have enough magical defence to make sure no new Undead get summoned into the combat. To use this tactic your number of main combat units needs to be about equal as those of your opponent.

2). Be able to kill/crumble their main tarpit units on the charge. Concentrate enough combat-power on a single target, so that even average dice-roling will kill and cumble the entire unit. Magical defence is less important here, but would be very to prevent the enemy units from growing too much during the first few turns. For this tactic you don't need as much units as your opponent has, but they have to be fast enough to choose their own fights and deadly enough to get the job done in a single round. Having fast and flexible support (Pegasi!) is very useful for taking out enemy support units that might hinder your heavy-hitters and help out in important combats as well.

3). Be able to out-manouvre your opponent and engage his units on your terms. For this tactic to work it really helps to have more and faster combat units than your opponent has. Two units of 6 Knights will have a much greater chance of destroying a zombie tarpit unit than a single large unit of Knights has. Concentrate first on taking out and controlling the support units of your opponent, then use your numbers and speed to gang-up on his units.


:cool:

Pravus
02-05-2006, 09:18
Paladin BSB, Banner of the lady + virtue of discipline - basically, combat is decided on wounds caused and charging knights do far more wounds than ranked up zombies. Just watch out for the vampire count with a great weapon - he will ruin your day.

Latro
02-05-2006, 11:19
... he said it's a 1000 pts battle, so no Counts.


:cool:

Steel_Legion
02-05-2006, 15:54
Right, heres a mock list with rough points
Paladin General, questing vow, great weapon, horse - 90
Paladin BSB, horse, unsure on banner if any - 75+
8 Kotr with full command - 220
8 Errant Knights FC and errant banner - 200
5 Questing Knights FC - 200
3 Pegasus Knights - 165
Plus items here and there, good or bad?
May add a damsel if i have spare points, will write up a good list later

Redvampire7
02-05-2006, 17:37
You don't need units of 8 knights. Units of 5-6 knights can work just as well if you're somewhat careful with your charges.

You are definetely going to need some kind of magical defence against undead. A lvl 1 scroll caddy is vital. Disrupt that oh so important movement spell that's going to be targeting your flanks. Use the scrolls sparely. Don't burn them in the first couple of rounds.

Finally don't bother with a magical banner for the BSB. At this point cost it would be too many eggs in one basket.

Steel_Legion
04-05-2006, 16:13
Final List:
1 Paladin, questing vow, warhorse, great axe, shield
1 Paladin, warhorse (BSB)
1 Damsel, 2 dispel scolls
5 KoTR, full command
8 Errant Knights, full command, errantry banner
5 Questing Knigts, full command
3 Pegasus knights, full command
Total 999 points, and i think its pretty perfect myself for what im up against

Neknoh
04-05-2006, 16:20
Find the virtue that cancels ranks, slap it on your BSB and put him with the KoTR

Steel_Legion
04-05-2006, 16:44
thats like 100points, no way am i spending 10% of my army points on 1 standard in such a small game, too risky!

DeathlessDraich
04-05-2006, 17:50
1) His army is slower. Units more than 12" from the general cannot march.
2) Skeletons and zombies will never win against a Brettonian charge so he'll use them as a diversion. Charge them only if you can wipe them out. Assuming you have 8 knights, (2 wounds from horses and 4 or 5 wounds from the knights), you'll win by 6 or 7 - you can guarantee wiping out a block of 12or less only from a frontal charge!
3) Undead cannot flee. There'll be no trickery and fancy manoeuvres.
4) Deploy wide and use your pegasus to good advantage by flying behind enemy lines and choosing wizards and small units threatening your trebuchet.
5) A trebuchet is definitely worth it but deploy it closer to a corner if you can. Undead tend to huddle around the vampire to improve their movement. You'll therefore have quite a few units in a clump in turn 1 and 2 to shoot at. Skirmishing archers will stop fell bats and dire wolves from threatening the trebuchet with the help of pegasi and once the pegasi are free they can hunt down the necros.
6) Do not use all your scrolls too early in the game. He'll seize on every opportunity to summon or add to a huge zombie unit - very dispiriting when you see them. lol
7) A black coach is only effective if it gets to charge, then it could turn into a monster problem but if you're within charge range, consider carefully because it will hold you up for a few rounds of combat.
8) Slay the knights and coaches and you're practically victorious.

Neknoh
04-05-2006, 19:32
I thought that virtue was under 30 points or something like that, sure, your BSB would get slightly more expensive, but, the effect it would have on undead units would be extremely destructive

Steel_Legion
04-05-2006, 22:19
Well the battle went as follows, he had skeletons, sat back and multiplyed them, boo! i just charged and after a few rounds of combat wiped em right out, a rubbish game

sephiroth87
05-05-2006, 06:25
It's never as bad as you think it would be. And as for the Vampire Counts, they only really get good when they can have a lord-level vampire leading the army. Otherwise they're simply trying to stay alive for six turns.

This is observation is dependent on not playing the Sylvanian army list from the storm of chaos book. It's a lot tougher to face, especially at smaller points levels.

Steel_Legion
05-05-2006, 08:09
That the one where you have 10000 wizards or something reduculus from all other armies?

Shazarn
05-05-2006, 08:51
I played Undead and found a couple of fatal things that drew them away from me.

1: Crumble, when they lose in combat, they go down fast.

2: Lack of movement, because they can only march within 12 of the general (TKs can never march) you'll easilly get the charge and movement spells arn't enough.

3: low armor, s 5 should do it, s4 will take em though.

But they have their advantages.

1: raising more or recovering wounds.

2: huge number

3: kinda kool units that have nasty effects, escecially weps that dont allow armor saves.

4: some nice items to watch out for.

sephiroth87
06-05-2006, 01:29
That the one where you have 10000 wizards or something reduculus from all other armies?

No, it's the list that has no necromancers in it. Instead, you have grave marker icons that you put down before the game starts. These markers automatically cast invocation of nehek every round. On top of that, you can have skeletons with crossbows and zombies with armor and halberds, rather than the crappy stuff that you get in the regular list. In low point games, you can have a vampire thrall as your general, while still using magic every round. The list is great at low points, mediocre at medium levels, and decent at higher point games.