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SilentTempest
17-05-2012, 14:49
So I've been working through the Horus Heresy series, after starting about a year ago, and am thoroughly enjoying it. The deeper insight into the Adeptus Astartes is fantastic, and the writing in the codices (in my opinion) totally pales in comparison.

But the reading has lead me to an interesting question, which I thought I'd get some opinions on:

Which Legion/Chapter sacrifices the most?

By that, I mean to ask which legion requires its initiates to give away the most, or suffer the most hardship. For example, I suspect many will say it's the Blood Angels, who, by accepting the geneseed, accept that they will inevitably succumb to the madness that is the Black Rage. Others may take a different view, and say it must be difficult to be a Space Wolf, playing the role of the Emperor's attack dog, doing the jobs no one else wants (e.g. the Wolves attacking Prospero following the Thousand Sons' ignoring the rulings from the Council of Nikea.)

So, what do people think?

(I'm probably more interested in the 9 loyalist legions more than later founding chapters, but feel free to suggest whatever you like).

xerxeshavelock
17-05-2012, 16:13
No idea to your question, but I reckon the Wolves love it!

Sqallum
17-05-2012, 17:43
No idea to your question, but I reckon the Wolves love it!

They don't. In Prospero Burns they treat it as they would any war, and they simply get on with it. I assume Russ enjoyed it, though :)

Dr.Clock
18-05-2012, 05:43
I'd probably go with Raven Guard... almost totally ruined at Isstvaan, and then the whole tragedy of the Weregeld thereafter. Iron hand and Salamanders are also thoroughly trashed, but I think their stoic natures in general probably help them deal with it a little better.

As far as Primarchs, I'd say Ferrus Mannus - at least Sanguinius had the honour of keeping Horus occupied until the Emperor could deal with him. Getting shut down by Fulgrim... and his severed head presented to the Warmaster... pretty harsh.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

DietDolphin
18-05-2012, 07:52
By that, I mean to ask which legion requires its initiates to give away the most, or suffer the most hardship.
Iron Hands.

Knowing that even if you survive their grueling recruitment (they see humans as weak so imagine how much they put aspiring humans through) you will have to then replace all of your now-superhuman body with machinery.

Also these are the most bitter loyalist out there. At least the Blood Angels have the honour of their primarch dying to protect the Emperor. Ferrus Manus died on a forgettable planet in a hopeless battle and had his head paraded about. Joining the Iron Hands isn't going to be the jolly drinking fest like the Wolves or as glorious as the Ultramarines.

Chem-Dog
18-05-2012, 08:18
For example, I suspect many will say it's the Blood Angels, who, by accepting the geneseed, accept that they will inevitably succumb to the madness that is the Black Rage.

This is assuming the Blood Angels openly announce the flaw and it's likely results in their prospectus. Even then, the chance to become one of the Emperor's chosen warriors, to be removed from the gruelling hardships and never-ending threat of heinous death would be enough to tempt a few.

But remember the Curse of the black rage only descended upon the Blood Angels after Sanguinius died (or at least well into the Heresy itself), so during the time the Blood Angels are a Legion you're basically talking about the chance to prove yourself worthy amongst gods, to outlive your natural span (potentially) and become something far more nobler than the harried little scavenger you would otherwise be destined to be in your short, brutal life.



Others may take a different view, and say it must be difficult to be a Space Wolf, playing the role of the Emperor's attack dog, doing the jobs no one else wants (e.g. the Wolves attacking Prospero following the Thousand Sons' ignoring the rulings from the Council of Nikea.)

To know one's duty and to excel in it even when others do not understand.... There's a great comfort in knowing your purpose and place. As I read the wolves in Prospero Burns, they were pretty content to pay the role they had been given.


Iron Hands.

Knowing that even if you survive their grueling recruitment (they see humans as weak so imagine how much they put aspiring humans through) you will have to then replace all of your now-superhuman body with machinery.

Again, as I understand it, that's a mindset that really to a predominance in the Legion after the Heresy or, at least for the Hands, After Istvaan. And again, I doubt their recruitment posters read "Join up and we'll remove many parts of your anatomy and replace them with mechanical alternatives".


Personally, I don't think any Astartes initiate really knows what he'll be giving up because, at the start of any attempt to be an astartes you're not likely to have reached double digits year (Terran Standard), you might understand honour (either personal or that earned by sending a son/clan member to the sky warriors), you might understand the chance to be a hero, but it's unlikely that you'll grasp the hidden price.
So, mindsets aside, they all sacrifice the same thing, their humanity. And lie-ins.

DietDolphin
18-05-2012, 08:42
Again, as I understand it, that's a mindset that really to a predominance in the Legion after the Heresy or, at least for the Hands, After Istvaan. And again, I doubt their recruitment posters read "Join up and we'll remove many parts of your anatomy and replace them with mechanical alternatives".
(I wasn't sure if this thread is about pre or post heresy, or both)

The thing is, the Iron hands don't see being half machine as a curse, in fact they are proud of it so they definitely wouldn't hide it like the Blood angels with the black rage. When the Iron Hands come to recruit you, your going to see straight up what you will become when they try to recruit you, you don't need to know anything about them to notice that his left arm, leg and skull have been replaced by machinery. I can imagine it would take a while to get your head around this.

Like you said they are all giving up the humanity to an extent, but physically, in the long run no legion abandons it as much as the Iron Hands, and you will see this immediately.

Tayrod
18-05-2012, 09:05
Grey Knights hands down. I hate the fluff part about 1/1000 makes it through stage 1 of the training, and then 1/1000 makes it through stage 2...

El_Machinae
18-05-2012, 15:27
Iron Warriors: they were consistently given the most brutal tasks, and then given the least glory. They were the people who were told to be 'proud' to be doing the crap work they had to do.

ColShaw
18-05-2012, 15:51
Imperial Guard Penal Legion ;).

To actually answer the OP's question, though... I'd have to say Blood Angels. Guaranteed to go totally berserk and turn into, basically, cursed vampires? And that's if you don't die horribly in some warzone.

Carlosophy
18-05-2012, 17:28
Iron Hands.

Knowing that even if you survive their grueling recruitment (they see humans as weak so imagine how much they put aspiring humans through) you will have to then replace all of your now-superhuman body with machinery.

Also these are the most bitter loyalist out there. At least the Blood Angels have the honour of their primarch dying to protect the Emperor. Ferrus Manus died on a forgettable planet in a hopeless battle and had his head paraded about. Joining the Iron Hands isn't going to be the jolly drinking fest like the Wolves or as glorious as the Ultramarines.

It also doesn't help that the Iron Hands are the only loyalist legion that lack a representative special character in any of the codices. Defeated by Horus, crushed by GW.

Veteran Sergeant
18-05-2012, 18:23
Ultramarines for sure. Despite joining the ranks of the "greatest of all Space Marine Chapters", they have to endure the constant criticism and crying of legions of neckbeard fans.

Captain Idaho
18-05-2012, 20:24
Everyone's going in the wrong direction with this.

The people who sacrifice the most to become Space Marines are the ones who actually SACRIFICE things. Fenrisians, Baalites and generally anyone from a deathworld is not really sacrificing much, and if anything has a better life as a Space Marines.

snottlebocket
19-05-2012, 10:44
Well let's see. There's the Lamenters who seem to be cursed with persistently bad luck that has nearly wiped out the chapter on several occasions. Their reputation for having bad luck is so severe that more superstitious space marine chapters have left the Lamenters behind to die rather than fight along side them. Their geneseed also seems to give them a persistent mood of melancholy that makes Marvin the android seem like the life of the party.

Then ofcourse there's the Flame Falcons whose gene seed contained a psychic mutation that caused the Flame Falcons to burst into flames that did not harm the Falcons them selfs. They figured they were blessed by the Emperor, the inquisition responded by sicking the grey knights on them for suspected demonic possession.

But if you're talking chapters that are doomed to an unfortunate end, few can top the Fire Hawks. Some chapters lost their home world. Some chapters have defective gene seed that threatens to mutate them towards an unfortunate demise. Well the fire hawks managed to lose their home world, find a new one, lose that one as well before founding a mobile fortress monastery in space. Then they proceed to get lost in the warp flying their fortress monastery around where they pick up some kind of warp contagion like a demonic std.

Their warp std causes their sanity to erode and their physical bodies to decay, but the further the disease progress the more they grow in super natural power. Entering a supremely powerful berserk state shortly before the disease kills them. Obviously you can't turn up in Imperial space like that without the inquisition and the grey knights pulling a Flame Falcon on you, so now they just go around beating face as the legion of the damned while they slowly go mad and their bodies rot away.

I'm pretty sure you'll be hard pressed to find a loyalist legion in a worse spot than the Fire Hawks.

Sqallum
22-05-2012, 16:34
It also doesn't help that the Iron Hands are the only loyalist legion that lack a representative special character in any of the codices. Defeated by Horus, crushed by GW.

This made me laugh so much. It is now my signature :D

Chem-Dog
22-05-2012, 19:20
(I wasn't sure if this thread is about pre or post heresy, or both) Me neither.


The thing is, the Iron hands don't see being half machine as a curse, in fact they are proud of it so they definitely wouldn't hide it like the Blood angels with the black rage. When the Iron Hands come to recruit you, your going to see straight up what you will become when they try to recruit you, you don't need to know anything about them to notice that his left arm, leg and skull have been replaced by machinery. I can imagine it would take a while to get your head around this.

Like you said they are all giving up the humanity to an extent, but physically, in the long run no legion abandons it as much as the Iron Hands, and you will see this immediately.

Thing is, you wouldn't have to wrap your head around it at all, psycho indoctrination and constant exposure to the cult beliefs of the Chapter (and/or Legion) would quickly swing you round to the belief that this bionic-fetish is something that should be embraced and therefore a positive thing. Hardly a sacrifice then, is it? Remove something and replace it with a more durable and functionally superior alternative isn't sacrifice, it's an upgrade.

Dr.Clock
23-05-2012, 14:01
I initially didn't understand the question... I thought the question was which Legion, as a whole, sacrificed the most.

In answer to the actual question about initiates making sacrifices:

I wouldn't argue that one sacrifices more or less than the others.

Being a lowly human in pretty much any of the societies that give initiates to the Space Marines pretty much sucks. Your life is likely to be brutal and short. While an initiate might be said to 'sacrifice' their humanity (ability to have offspring/hold ideas and emotions in their heads/hearts that aren't related to killing the Emperor's enemies etc.), 'humanity' isn't all that great in a galaxy filled with incredible, mind-blowing threats. Becoming a Space Marine is one of the few avenues open to a human that allows them to live a life relatively free of want, placed essentially, and often physically, at the very top of human society. Add to this that being a Space Marine immediately inducts you into the legions of the Imperium's greatest heroes, and it's even harder to argue that the inductees really 'lose' anything of consequence in a hard, unfeeling galaxy.

In sum, it's not like Chapters are going around picking up the most privileged, ingenious or artistic people they can find. They look for the hardiness, aggression and inventiveness that comes from already having nothing left to lose.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

omegoku
23-05-2012, 15:54
Ultramarines.
They live on a fairly run, nice productive set of worlds.
There are no soul crushing factory hives, or mega slums in the underhive in Ultramar.
So giving up your life as preteen destined to become an Adeptus Denticus and have a wife and kids to face a life of constant war and servitude seems like a tough choice to make.
Giving up living as a viking in constant shifting seas of ice filled with monsters with a life expectancy of 25 to become a Space Wolf seems like a much easier choice to me.