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charlarino
18-05-2012, 14:15
Myself and my mates want to play a game involving 3 armies going hell for leather at each other, but we are struggling to make this work? has anyone done it and if so how did you counter the conflict between potential combat res with three enemies involved and the magic phase?

thank you for any answers :)

jedideinos
18-05-2012, 14:29
Myself and my mates want to play a game involving 3 armies going hell for leather at each other, but we are struggling to make this work? has anyone done it and if so how did you counter the conflict between potential combat res with three enemies involved and the magic phase?

thank you for any answers :)

The last time I played 3 player, was 7th Ed, so not sure how to tackle magic. As for combat, I'd suggest that it works like any other combat involving multiple units. All units involved, fight, tot up the casualties, work out who won, and take break tests accordingly.

Malorian
18-05-2012, 14:42
Combat res is actually pretty straight forward. Winning side wins, losers break or flee, end of story.

You have 3 main issues:
-deployment
-magic
-keeping it offensive

For a completely fair game you are going to get your hands on a round table and cut it into 3 pieces like a pie, then have everything start in reserve and walking on first turn as if they had chased a unit off the board (so no charges). You'll probably want to play 7 turns to make up for this.

For magic the fairest way it to do it like normal but both the other teams can channel and hopefully no one is playing dwarfs. Basically the dispel pool is shared by the two other players and each time a spell is cast they can decide how many dice to throw at it and what wizard is trying to stop it. In the event that they disagree the person who wanted to throw more dice wins but they must use one of their own wizards to dispel.

The final problem is that in this case it's always best to hold back and let your opponents fight it out. To counter this have an objective in the center of the board. This can either be a king of the hill scenario, a catpure the flag scenario, one where you get points for every turn you are in control, or anything else but the point is that if has to force armies to the center to engage and not hold back.

Hope it works out :)

Hoshiyami
18-05-2012, 15:48
Any combat involving 3 armies against each other should be resolved as 2 (or 3) different combat results.

If 4 empire griffon knights are against 30 chaos marauders and 50 skaven slaves everyone makes their attacks to anyone of their choice, then the empire knights add the casualties they do to the marauders, the marauders the casualties to the empire griffon knights, add anything else and check. Do the same with empire knights vs. slaves and with marauders vs. slaves. The player with the turn decides wich one is resolved before.

And for chalenges... would need a little more houseruling :P

The Clairvoyant
18-05-2012, 16:31
there is a 3-player scenario in the big rule book. We've played it once and it works quite well. Basically one player sets up in the middle and the other two on board edges. Player in the middle rolls the magic dice and each player gets that many power dice (and work out dispel dice as normal based on that roll). Player in the middle casts a spell first, then whoever went second, then whoever went third. You then keep going round until all players have stopped casting.
There's other stuff in there too about combat but its best to read the rules in the scenario. There are no VPs, and victory is decide by capturing the 3 objectives

Jind_Singh
18-05-2012, 19:08
Just use the battle royale rules from the big rule book - works a treat and keeps the game flowing well.

Also for 3 player games it's also more effective, personally speaking, to play Storm of Magic as it's very easy to determine who wins and doesn't create headaches! Victory points to determine winners is just epic fail as one player could kill, e.g., 28 Chosen of Tzeentch and then the other player kills the last 2 and gets ALL the VP? How is that fun?!

Storm of magic is excellent as it's all about fulcrum control.

Battle Royale sequence play is also very smooth - we had 11 players on one 6ft by 6ft table and it went pretty well - but obviously it's more quicker when there are 3-4 players only.

The rules for these kinds of game plays can be found in the expanded sections available in the large rule book - head over to a GW if you only have the small rule book to hand

StygianBeach
18-05-2012, 19:22
Any combat involving 3 armies against each other should be resolved as 2 (or 3) different combat results.

If 4 empire griffon knights are against 30 chaos marauders and 50 skaven slaves everyone makes their attacks to anyone of their choice, then the empire knights add the casualties they do to the marauders, the marauders the casualties to the empire griffon knights, add anything else and check. Do the same with empire knights vs. slaves and with marauders vs. slaves. The player with the turn decides wich one is resolved before.


I would agree with this.

Also, for Magic. Why not try something crazy... No dispelling! ... I mean no natural dispel dice generation. So 2D6 is how much magic the turn player gets, the non turn players have to rely on Dispel scrolls or channeled/generated dispel dice.

If that seems unfair, then just keep power dice roll the same for all 3 players magic phases. So player 1 rolls a 4 and a 3 on his first magic phase, so all 3 players get 7 magic dice for their first magic phase. Turn 2 player 1 rolls a 11, so all 3 players get 11 dice in their second magic phase.

Duke Ramulots
18-05-2012, 19:57
Deployment should come from whatever special scenario you've made up for the battle(because all the ones in the book are for two opposing forces)

Magic is easy, power dice go to whoevers turn it is and dispell dice are split in half with a roll off for any odd die.

We resolve combat the same way it is done in a 1v1 battle, each side adds it casualties, ranks, charge bonus, ect, and the two losing sides take the apropriate break tests.

the games seem to run pretty smooth this way.

SotF
18-05-2012, 23:28
If you have them, when going with a 3 way fight, one easy fix for dispel dice is to take the dice down 1 step to roll d4's if you have them available.

Urgat
19-05-2012, 10:35
Also for 3 player games it's also more effective, personally speaking, to play Storm of Magic as it's very easy to determine who wins and doesn't create headaches! Victory points to determine winners is just epic fail as one player could kill, e.g., 28 Chosen of Tzeentch and then the other player kills the last 2 and gets ALL the VP? How is that fun?!
WOuld be simpler to just decide that whoever has more points left wins, rather than who killed what, don't you think? ;)

For magic, imho, the best way is to have it work as usual, but everybody can cast/dispel each magic phase. Then the player who's turn it is decides if he begins or not, and the two others dice it off. Then they cycle till all PD/DD are exhausted. That way, everybody will have an incentive to go all out, not just gang up on one, etc etc. Of course there is no dispelling spells that don't affect you in any way.

quietus1986
20-05-2012, 22:41
I played a 3 way one's in 8th we changed the magic face a bit the the player how's turn it is rolles a dice for every one playing. ann every player roles one dice for there dispel dice. End every time you cast a spell the other player have to chose how many dispel dice day want to roll or use a dispel scroll in secret.so the other player dosn't know what he is rolling and they bote roll en you count all the dice toward the dispel. ( it to counter the represent that they don't work on the same team but sometime's have the same goal. The secret part also counters the fackt that they might have more dispel dice than you have magic dice.

mmckeddie
20-05-2012, 23:04
I've played a few 3 player games on a 4'x4' table (anywhere between 500 and 1500pts has worked). The deployment zone setup we have used is everyone gets a 12"x24" area. One person is in the center of one table edge and the other 2 are in the far corners. (No ones deployment zones are touching each others) Kind of like this '_'
Also we have used (as Malorian mentioned) something in the middle of the table to draw everyone in. We use the rule that the unit farthest from the center point takes d6 strength 5 hits at the end of each round.

DaemonReign
29-05-2012, 06:58
Man I wish I had checked this thread before starting a brand new one on the exact same topic. Damn embarrassing.

Gotta give the Battle Royale rules another read/chance because I heard from others they kinda sucked.. (?)

Keeping it based on objectives rather than vp's was exactly what I was thinking.

BaSe
29-05-2012, 14:50
We play as one person takes a full side, 2 others take opposite corners. Usually have a hill or forest to take in the middle so no one can just sit back.
Then follow the rules in the big book regarding magic etc. plays like a very different game as the phases all interlink. Makes it interesting to say the least.

DaemonReign
29-05-2012, 17:36
We play as one person takes a full side, 2 others take opposite corners. Usually have a hill or forest to take in the middle so no one can just sit back.
Then follow the rules in the big book regarding magic etc. plays like a very different game as the phases all interlink. Makes it interesting to say the least.

So the two players in the corners arn't allied but they share Turn-Subphases?
That must become pretty wacky when they are supposed to fight each-other (and not player1), right?
Two units charging each-other in the front, and both failing because they do it in sequence.. and how to resolve that sequence? - And what about the Magic phase? *haha*
So many questions.

I'm examining a 'houserule' that basically let's each of the 3 players have a subphase of his own - essentially a 'Third Subphase'.
Magic would be normal but the Dispel Pool shared by the "dispelling players of each phase" (they have to duel with wizards if they disagree on whether or not to dispel a certain spell).
Channels, self-generated dispel dice, and scrolls etcetera are naturally exclusive to the player and not 'shared'.
Combat will be on crack since there will be a third Close Combat Subphase in each turn - but this would be a pretty big game anyway so no matter (I hope).
Each faction calculate CR by themselves, highest negative CR resolves their breaktests First in ascendance.

This is pretty much my 'theory' for how to do this. Ne'er done it, you see.. but planning for it!

In the stupid copy-cat thread I unwittingly started last night Shadow said that Shooting is the phase that threatens to ruin a game like this.. But he must have been joking! (?)

Lot's of other good ideas in this thread though.. No doubt about that.

Hoshiyami
29-05-2012, 19:51
What I think he was saying is that if one of the three armies is heavy-shooting, then this army kills a bit the game: shoot the other 2 from its corner while they combat each other and proceed with the menace "if you come near me, I'll shoot you to death"

DaemonReign
30-05-2012, 00:40
Ah.. Thanks!
You're propably right!
Fortunately this doesn't seem to be a potential problem with the scenario I am envisioning that we'd be playing.
Guy in the middle can play gunline all he wants, he's still gonna get hit from two sides by two much bigger armies.
The dynamic of the game would be for the two attackers to appropriate the right resources for dealing with each other, while at the same time 'taking the castle' from the (much smaller) garrisoned player.

BaSe
30-05-2012, 08:08
No all playing separate following the big rule book for turns.
Each
Player charges/ moves
Each player casts a spell and it goes round until everyone is out of casting dice. Anyone can choose to dispel
Each player takes their turn shooting
Combat

DaemonReign
30-05-2012, 12:41
All right, I understand BaSe!

In case you, or anyone else, is interested: Here's a little draft I just wrote for how I envision this little game I am planning:

Scenario ’HouseRules’.
Scenario: ’Take the Castle’. 1 Player deploys his force in the middle of a 8’x8’ table, the two other players deploy on each side.
Win Conditions: The Castle has 5 ‘Objectives’. 1 Courtyard/MainBuilding in the middle, and each ‘side’ of the walls represent the other 4 objectives. Which-ever players control the most Objectives at the end of the game Wins! In the case of a tie use Victory Points as normal.
3 Player Battles
Player 1 – Deploy in the center, in the castle.
Player 2 & 3 – Deploy according to normal Battle-Line rules (i.e. 12” deployment zone).
Player 1 Deploys his entire force first, Player 2 & 3 rolls off and deploys in sequence as normal after that. Player 1 gets first Turn Automatically, Player 2 & 3 roll off for sequence as normal.
All players have have a Move Phase, Shooting Phase, and Magic Phase “each” – however, the Close Combat phase is ONLY resolved in the SubTurn belonging to Players 2 & 3. If Player 1 (for example) completes a Charge in his Movement Subphase, he gets the +1 to CR in Player 2’s Close Combat phase etcetera.
Magic:
The player whos turn it is generates Winds of Magic as normal, including channeling etcetera. The two ‘dispelling’ players are assumed to ‘share’ the Dispel Pool – however, any channeled Dispel Dice (or auto-generated Dispel Dice) are ‘exclusive’ to the owning player. When a spell is cast the Dispelling Players can either agree to use the ‘shared’ Dispel Pool (with any additions of ‘exclusive’ Dispel Dice that may want to add to the roll) using a Wizard/Dispelling Model that they agree on. If the Dispelling players do not agree on whether or not to Dispel the spell just cast, they may either use their ‘exclusive’ dice or ‘duel’ for the right to use the ‘shared’ Dispel Pool against the will of the other Dispelling Player. In this duel each of the Dispelling Players nominates a Wizard/Dispeller from their own Army and rolls a d6 adding the Magic Level of that wizard – who-ever scores the highest wins, if the result is a tie the side with the least number of Magic Levels is assumed to have won. The ‘winner’ ultimately decides whether or not the ‘shared’ Dispel pool is to be used for the particular spell in question, at this particular time. Note that Wizards that have suffered Loss of Concentration cannot be nominated for these duels, but you can always ‘nominate’ your army (i.e. equating having zero bonus to the D6 roll).
Seige Tower & Battering Ram: Using the Rules from Blood in the Badlands.

Combat On Walls and Towers:
General: Up to 3 Friendly units can be deployed on each Wall-Section or Tower. Warmachines count as 1 unit, and are destroyed if the Section is taken by an enemy. A unit can move one Wall-Section per Movement-phase, and move normally from any Section into the CourtYard of the castle. If there’s a Gate-Section, use the rules in Blood in the Badlands for ‘Sally forth’ etcetera. Only Swarms, Infantry, Monstrous Infantry and Monsters can occupy a Wall Section.
Hot-pots: Any infantry unit on a wall-section may perform a Shooting Attack at an enemy unit beneath the Wall-Section using the following Rules: Range: 3”, S3. Note that a maximum of 10 models per unit may attack. Monstrous Infantry also has Range 3” but S5 instead. If the unit does not have a value for Ballistic Skill it still hits on a 6+.
Close Combat: Based on the rules for fighting in Buildings (from the BRB). With the following additions/changes:
- Flyers may ‘land’ on any flat surface as though it was open ground, hence charge any unit on a Section normally. Such combats are fought as ‘normal’ combats all the way, although a maximum of 10 models (i.e. flyers & defenders) from each side may strike.
- Defending player may nominate 10 models from any/all units to fight an enemy that is scaling up the walls.
- The attacker that is scaling up the wall may do so with up to 3 units per wall-section, nominating up to 10 models. Each model takes a Dangerous Terrain test (from climbing) and any suffered wounds removes one model from the fighting party.
- If the Defender wins the combat will end just as per normal rules in Buildings.
- If the Attacker wins (but fails to break the defender) the combat does not end however, instead, the amount of CR difference is used to add models from the Attackers force to the Wall-section – these models are added in the next combat phase to the Attacker’s side (as he makes 10 ‘new’ Dangerous Terrain Tests) while the Defender still only gets 10 models to fight back with. E.g. Attacker wins by +2CR, places 2 models on the Wallsection, in the next turn he fails one dangerous terrain test = 11 models may fight, defender still only has 10. These modifications by CR continue until the Attacker takes the Section or is reduced to an accumulated ‘zero’ once more and the combat ends (as per normal Rules for Buildings).
- Any Flyers on the attacking side does not count toward the maximum of models that can fight ‘from the ground’. For example, if the attacker is scaled the walls and lost 2 models to Dangerous Terrain, but also have 5 Flyers attacking (or being engaged with) the Section, he effectively gets to fight with 13 models in total (vs the 10 models of the defender).
- Combats between Sections are resolved as per normal rules for Buildings.
- Only Infantry, Swarms, Monstrous Infantry and Monsters may Scale the Walls.
No Further Siege Equipment: With the exception of the gate(s) of the castle no Sections of the Castle can be destroyed during the course of the game. Tower-Sections cannot be scaled unless adjacent to a Siege Tower. You must have S6 or better to wound the Gate.

Any reflections on this? Anyone? :)