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librisrouge
22-05-2012, 18:16
I found out last night that my last list was 220 points over because Excel "auto-corrected" itself into forgetting to count Marius' points. Back to the drawing board.

In an effort to add more umph with the models I actually own (boy do I need more state troops) I decided I'd try a Griffon General in this month's tournament. This is my result.

Lords-
General of the Empire (Gen) - Biting Blade, Enchanted Shield, Pistol, and FPA

General of the Empire - White Cloak, Fencer's Blades, FPA, and Pistol
His loyal Griffon mount, Stampy

Heroes-
Captain of the Empire - BSB, Shield, FPA, and Dragonhelm

Warrior Priest - Barded Warhorse, Heavy Armor, and Shield

Battle Wizard - Lore of Fire and Lvl 2

Master Engineer

Core-
Halberdiers x40 - Musician and Standard
Det. Swordsmen x20

IC Knights x10 - Full Command

Special-
Pistoliers x5 - Full Command (Repeater)

Great Cannon

Great Cannon

Rare-
Hellblaster

The local meta doesn't feature too many warmachines (yet) and a lot of str3 grindy busses. I'm hoping to get the Griffon into combat by turn 2 every game and have him just start shredding stuff. Cannons will counter battery and the Hellblaster and Wizard will try to make combats unfair in my favor.

Just threw it together quick. Ideas?

Wesser
23-05-2012, 21:00
Skip the pistoliers...They are basically free company with movement 8, except they cost 18 pts....

The army's weakness is the low number of drops/units and the fact that the force isnt coherent. While getting a griffon into combat is commendable it will mean that your foce will be split up very fast. Youll be unable to protect you warmachine and you infantry is likely to become stranded behind the griffon and knights.

I'd recommend swapping the pistoliers and the footgeneral for more statetroops and then upgrade the IC knights to Reikguard so that your are less vulnerable to becoming encircled.

The problem is that horde units like your halberdiers doesnt work too well coming in second wave... they need so muc space..

Jezbot
24-05-2012, 06:44
I don't agree with Wesser on the Pistoliers. They perform a role so unlike Free Company I can't even begin to figure out that comparison. They harass through denying marching and standing in the way of enemy units, while delivering some moderately useful shooting attacks, and flee charges whenever you can force the enemy into making them. You do pay a few too many points for this, but in the right list, played by the right player they're a solid unit.

I do agree with Wesser that you've got one General too many in your list. I think dropping the foot mounted General, and using those points on another detachment of infantry that'll give you the numbers to avoid getting flanked.

ftayl5
24-05-2012, 09:52
I think having a second general on foot to actually be your general is a good idea. You don't want your leadership bubble a) flying off away from your battleline or b) getting hit by a cannonball.

However the biting blade seems like a waste of points as does the pistol. Drop the griffon's pistol too. It will never do anything.

Or you could consider getting a lector as your general. Fulfils more roles outside of leadership bubble, ie. magic: something you currently lack much of. And could give hatred to your halberds.

Wesser
24-05-2012, 15:28
Jezbot, you gotta remember that while pistoliers get 2 shots theyll tend to hit on 6' or even 7' and with a range of 12. Aint gonna hurt nobody. And between themselves and their horse they have the same attacks as free company guy..and the same stats.

All they have to show for the extra 12 points is the fast cavalry rule

librisrouge
24-05-2012, 21:21
Pistolier Shooting:
BS 3 = 4s
Multishot + BS 3 = 5s
Multishot + BS 3 + Plus 6"-12" = 6s
Multishot + BS 3 + Plus 6"-12" + Skirmishers = 7s

To hit on a 7 you chose a terrible target. Most often you're going to hit on 5s if you're using them right.

I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking your reasoning Wesser (though I guess I am) since you do have some valid points. I've just never once been disappointed by the mobility and firepower those guys can dish out though (albeit over a couple of turns though) and their use as warmachine hunters is irreplacable in our codex. I know everybody has their "baby" unit, the one they don't leave home with, and it is the pistoliers for me.

GodlessM
25-05-2012, 01:18
I'm guessing some people missed the part where the OP said he needs to get more State Troops, i.e. he has no more.

Jezbot
25-05-2012, 01:54
Jezbot, you gotta remember that while pistoliers get 2 shots theyll tend to hit on 6' or even 7' and with a range of 12. Aint gonna hurt nobody. And between themselves and their horse they have the same attacks as free company guy..and the same stats.

All they have to show for the extra 12 points is the fast cavalry rule

As pistols are Quick to Fire, there's no modifier for movement. As pistoliers are so mobile, it is very simple to get within 6" when firing, removing any modifier for range. This leaves multiple shots as the only modifier they can expect to suffer, and so 5+ will be the target number.

This means that a unit of 5 pistoliers will deliver 3 & 1/3 str 4 AP hits each turn. It isn't a great return for 90 points (90 points worth of handgunners will deliver the exact same number of hits at range, and we all know they're pretty underwhelming these days), but the pistoliers are not just there for their damage output - they're a nuisance unit that can delay an enemy unit, force a break in the enemy line of advance, and possibly go warmachine hunting.

Jezbot
25-05-2012, 01:56
I think having a second general on foot to actually be your general is a good idea. You don't want your leadership bubble a) flying off away from your battleline or b) getting hit by a cannonball.

The thing is, I'm not so sure the Empire needs that Ld 9 bubble anymore. Having captains with Hold the Line is very powerful, even at Ld 8 (though this depends on the number of psychology tests you're likely to face). The other option is to drop the second general and upgrade the Warrior Priest to an Arch Lector.

Morax
25-05-2012, 14:29
As pistols are Quick to Fire, there's no modifier for movement. As pistoliers are so mobile, it is very simple to get within 6" when firing, removing any modifier for range. This leaves multiple shots as the only modifier they can expect to suffer, and so 5+ will be the target number.

This means that a unit of 5 pistoliers will deliver 3 & 1/3 str 4 AP hits each turn. It isn't a great return for 90 points (90 points worth of handgunners will deliver the exact same number of hits at range, and we all know they're pretty underwhelming these days), but the pistoliers are not just there for their damage output - they're a nuisance unit that can delay an enemy unit, force a break in the enemy line of advance, and possibly go warmachine hunting.

Warmachine huniting is best left to cannons, who most of the time get the job done faster and more reliably. That leaves them with nuisance and 3 and 1/3 strength 4 ap hits a turn if you are in position. Those 3 and 1/3 hits per turn are best when you can't be charged so you can reliably do so again the next turn. That is counter productive with the nuisance roll as you predominantly want them to divert chargers. Either way you are looking at maybe two wounds a turn from shooting that get through saves for a unit that costs 90 points. At that 90 point price tage they also make a horrible redirector as their leadership is human average, ie crap. That role makes a muscian in the unit almost mandatory, uping the point value to 100 points. Hardly what I would call a bargin. A better expenditure of that same 100 points would be 3 5 man detachments of archers. While not as agile individually, one could make the argument that together they are more agile as they can be in 3 places at once. They put out 5 more shots per turn, albeit at a lower strength with no ap. Skirmisher makes them just about as surviveable as the 5+ save the pistoliers have but with 3 times the wound count. But the best point for the archer detachment is that they are cheep enough to throw away. At a mere 35 points for each detachment, if one gets killed keeping a unit off of your flank for a turn, so be it. If two get killed to give your cannons another chance at bringing down that HPA then great. All in all, a much more competitive choice.

Jezbot
28-05-2012, 04:49
Warmachine huniting is best left to cannons, who most of the time get the job done faster and more reliably.

It is an extremely foolhardy Empire player who just assumes all enemy warmachines will be within LOS of his cannons. The captasus is a much loved option for a reason.


That leaves them with nuisance and 3 and 1/3 strength 4 ap hits a turn if you are in position.

'If you are in position'. Who are these competitive Empire players who can't get a M8 vanguard unit into position?


Those 3 and 1/3 hits per turn are best when you can't be charged so you can reliably do so again the next turn.

Not really. Instead, pistoliers give you the option of either moving to a flank to prevent the enemy charging you and firing every turn, or moving in front of the enemy to block their advance, and possibly losing a turn of firing with feigned flight shenanigans.

That you can do one or the other is not a weakness, but a strength as you can adapt to the circumstances of the game.


A better expenditure of that same 100 points would be 3 5 man detachments of archers. While not as agile individually, one could make the argument that together they are more agile as they can be in 3 places at once. They put out 5 more shots per turn, albeit at a lower strength with no ap. Skirmisher makes them just about as surviveable as the 5+ save the pistoliers have but with 3 times the wound count. But the best point for the archer detachment is that they are cheep enough to throw away. At a mere 35 points for each detachment, if one gets killed keeping a unit off of your flank for a turn, so be it. If two get killed to give your cannons another chance at bringing down that HPA then great.

The issue you're missing is that in order to do their job, the archers must be destroyed. It may only be 100 points, but it's points you're giving up every game. The pistoliers can do their job and stand a reasonable chance of surviving the game.