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View Full Version : 2,000 points 1st tourney with High Elves-- Is this list solid enough?



LordBadgash
23-05-2012, 03:54
Lords
Archmage (4) = 370
- Talisman of Saphery, Folaraith’s Robe, Seerstaff of Saphery
-Lore of Shadow


Heroes
Noble Battle Standard Bearer = 178
-Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Longbow, Great Weapon

Mage (1) = 120
- Dispell Scroll,
-Lore of High Magic + *Drain Magic


Noble = 191
- Armour of Destiny, Shield, Lance, Great Eagle

Core
29 Sea Guard = 412
-Full Command, Spears, Shields, Bows, Banner of Eternal Flame

10 Archers = 110
- Longbows

Special
17 Swordmasters = 335
- Full Command, Heavy Armour, Great Weapons, Banner of Sorcery

6 Dragon Princes = 190
- Musician, Lances, Barded Steeds, Dragon armour, & Shields

Rare
2 x Great Eagles = 50/each

The idea is to take out war machines or dangerous enemy Wizards with the Noble on great eagle and the 2 great eagles.

Archmage will lead Swordmasters into battle while the BSB joins the steadfast Sea Guard. Finally, the archers will support and even act as redirectors for the sea guard unit and lead by the Mage (who will leave the unit should the archers move into a redirecting role).

The Dragon Princes are there to roll a flank and support the sea guard unit with a flank charge or take out smaller units of cavalry, chariots, or fire-breathing monsters (hopefully on the charge - thinking of giving them a standard, moving banner of eternal flame here and giving them a champion with Foe Bane?)

The sea guard and dragon princes shall be supported with Shadow magic in combat (Enfeebling foe, Withering, or Mindrazor)

What do you think?

Gop
23-05-2012, 04:38
Your number of core seems a bit small. You may be swamped by armies with more troops.

Trains_Get_Robbed
23-05-2012, 07:06
^^^ Incorrect, your number of special is tiny.

Frankly, if your using Shadow Magic, you want to use P.G instead of S.M.

The Lvl4 should have the Silver Wand instead of Seerstaff (why choose four when you can have five -and essentially choose five?), in addition to cutting the Eagle Noble entirely -if you want the Noble, put him on a Steed, and place him in the D.P unit. You already have six bodies in there -one too many for throw-away chaff/flank protector/hunter, my as well go hard in the crease and use the G.E's points, BsB's bow and cut a two LSG; adding one/two more Dragon Princes, and add a few more desperately needed bodies to the S.M/P.G.

This would increase the overall threat of your list, and give everything a "inherent" save whether through abilities, or body count.

Solid list though regardless.

P.S: If you want to take the Eagle Prince still, put the Charmed Shield on him, in addition to +5 Ward (and a +2/3 A.S for small arms fire), otherwise a cannon will end his day.

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
23-05-2012, 08:40
P.S: If you want to take the Eagle Prince still, put the Charmed Shield on him, in addition to +5 Ward (and a +2/3 A.S for small arms fire), otherwise a cannon will end his day.

But the Noble already has a 4+ ward save from the Armor of Destiny so I don't think the Charmed Shield would help much. ;)

However I concur with much of what Trains has already commented on.

Archmage: lose the Seerstaff (you can't afford it anyways because you're over your 100 pts. limit for magic items with it) and go with the silver wand instead.

Swordmasters vs. Phoenix Guards: The PG has a built in ward save that gives them better survivability when used in conjunction with Shadow Magic. While I see where you were going with in your original list with maybe using the Shield of Saphery from the lower level mage to protect the Swordmasters there is still a chance the spell can be dispelled at a crucial moment. No such chance of that happening with the PG unit. In this case I would reduce the the number of the Dragon Princes to 5 and use the remaining points to increase the number in the elite SM unit and convert them to PG. Include the BSB in here with the Archmage and you got yourself a decent hammer/anvil with a 7x3 frontage for maximum number of attacks.

LordBadgash
24-05-2012, 02:43
OK, thanks for the comments guys - much appreciated and great advice.

@ Trains, great point about the silver wand, lol, duh! That way I'll always have either Pit of Shades OR mindrazor at least to deal with monsters, and hordes.

Regarding Phoenix Guard - I don't have any but I do have White Lions, would they be a better choice than swordmasters?

Here's the revised list...

*I changed the Sea Guard to Spear Elves to bulk up the army. Will deploy in deep ranks, 5 x 8.

* I changed the kit on the Eagle riding Noble. He can now hopefully survive a 1st turn cannon shot and his objective will be to destroy the most lethal warmachine on turn 2! He also carries amulet of light to tie up and defeat ethereals until the spear elves can come in support with ranks and banners to win via combat result.

* also reworked the banners and each unit has some kind of situational ward save; Spear Elves have Magic resistance 2 (and the BSB would have a 3+ ward vs character sniping spells!). The Swordmasters have the Ironcurse Icon and magic resistance 1. The Dragon princes are immune to flamming attacks and will usually have Shield of Saphery cast on it.

Lords
Archmage (4) = 350
-Talisman of Saphery, Folaraith’s Robe, Silver Wand
-Lore of Shadow


Heroes
Noble Battle Standard Bearer = 168
-Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Mage (1) = 120
-Dispell Scroll, *Drain Magic
-High Magic


Noble = 195
- Charmed Shield, Talisman of Endurance, Amulet of light, Dragon Armour, Lance, Great Eagle

Core
39 Spear Elves = 401
-Full Command, Spears, Light Armour, Shields, Banner of Arcane Protection

10 Archers = 110
- Longbows

Special
17 Swordmasters = 355
- Full Command (Bladelord has Obsidian Trinket and Ironcurse Icon), Heavy Armour, Great Weapons, Banner of Sorcery

6 Dragon Princes = 220
- Standard Bearer, Musician, Lances, Barded Steeds, Dragon Armour, & Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Rare
2 x Great Eagles = 50/each

kissmykiester
24-05-2012, 03:34
I would lose the noble on the giant eagle...and yes, imho 'Lion' are better then SMs. Best to have both.
With the points from the noble, I would being in the Lions.

kissmykiester
24-05-2012, 03:37
I would lose the noble on the giant eagle...and yes, imho 'Lion' are better then SMs. Best to have both.
With the points from the noble, I would being in the Lions.

I meant 'bring' in the Lions

LordBadgash
24-05-2012, 03:42
Hmmm...the thing is the noble is there to take out warmachines which frees up the eagles to redirect, release fanatics or act as a speed bump.

And i don't think 195 points is enough for a unit of White lions - what makes white lions better and how many would you consider the minimum size for an effective unit?

Pointy Headed Elven Paladin
24-05-2012, 09:00
Hmmm...the thing is the noble is there to take out warmachines which frees up the eagles to redirect, release fanatics or act as a speed bump.

And i don't think 195 points is enough for a unit of White lions - what makes white lions better and how many would you consider the minimum size for an effective unit?

White Lions are tougher to take out with small arms fire thanks to their cloaks. Also they are capable of taking out high toughness targets the Swordmasters struggle to damage (like Empire heavy cavalry for instance). You are correct in your assessment though 195 pts. isn't enough White Lions to be combat effective. You'll need at least 20 White Lions in 2000 pts. game to make them an effective block of infantry unless you're using them as MSU torpedoes (congo line to hold up regiments thanks to their stubborn rules).

Mandragola
24-05-2012, 11:45
Eagles are good enough against war machines. The noble costs as much as four of them and doesn't do the job any better. Plus he's kind of redundant against armies that lack things for him to hunt. He also costs considerably more than most of the things he'll be hunting.

So, if you used his 195 points to buy some kind of troops instead, then the war machine he would have killed if he was there would have to kill all of those troops before it was a bad investment for you.

Meanwhile, if the other guy goes first then his war machine gets to fire at least twice before your hero can do anything about it. By his third turn the chances are most units are in combat and war machines aren't too important any more anyway. Given that, what are the real chances of your hero preventing 195 points worth of damage to your army?

I'd spend the points bulking out existing units rather than trying to include a new one, or turning the swordmasters into white lions if you like. Your units need to be able to take a bit of punishment and still arrive able to win fights.

LordBadgash
25-05-2012, 20:34
Eagles are good enough against war machines. The noble costs as much as four of them and doesn't do the job any better. Plus he's kind of redundant against armies that lack things for him to hunt. He also costs considerably more than most of the things he'll be hunting.

So, if you used his 195 points to buy some kind of troops instead, then the war machine he would have killed if he was there would have to kill all of those troops before it was a bad investment for you.

Meanwhile, if the other guy goes first then his war machine gets to fire at least twice before your hero can do anything about it. By his third turn the chances are most units are in combat and war machines aren't too important any more anyway. Given that, what are the real chances of your hero preventing 195 points worth of damage to your army?

I'd spend the points bulking out existing units rather than trying to include a new one, or turning the swordmasters into white lions if you like. Your units need to be able to take a bit of punishment and still arrive able to win fights.

I think i agree. I'll bulk up the sword masters to 20, with the archmage that'll be 21 so I'll deploy 7x3.

Now should i put the noble in the dragon princes or drop him?

Also, what's good equipment for a noble on steed?

Kahadras
26-05-2012, 00:57
I would make a few changes to the list. I'd give your Arch mage the Silver Wand and just leave it at that for magic items. I'd also be in favor of folding the Mage into your BSB (done by dropping the Mage and giving the BSB the Radient Gem of Hoeth). This gives you a level 1 Mage who also functions as your BSB. It's a bit radical IMHO but I've been experimenting with it for a while now and found that it really works for me. I'd also probably opt for a more 'cheap and cheerful' Noble on Eagle (Dragon armour, enchanted shield, lance).

I like a bit of shooting in my core so I'd keep the Seaguard but drop them down to a slightly smaller unit (20) and put the BSB in with them (run 7x3). I'd also invest in a unit of 19 Archers which can act as a bunker for the Archmage. I'd bulk up the Swordmasters to 21 (run 7x3) and would be tempted to drop the Dragon Princes down to 5 (or exchange them for a Lion Chariot)

Lastly I'd try to fit a RBT into a rare slot (maybe dropping one of the Eagles) to give that extra bit of kick to the shooting phase.

Points saved -

Magic items dropped from Archmage
Mage dropped
Magic items dropped from Noble on Eagle
Seaguard dropped in size
Eagle dropped

Points added -

Magic item for BSB (offset against the loss of the Armour of Caldor and Guardian Phoenix)
Archer unit added
Swordmasters bulked up
Bolt Thrower added

Kahadras

LordBadgash
26-05-2012, 12:42
the Revised list...



Lords
Archmage (4) = 350
- Talisman of Saphery, Folaraith’s Robe, Silver Wand



Heroes
Noble Battle Standard Bearer = 168
-Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Noble (1) = 161
- Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Lance, Shield, Barded Steed



Core
39 Spear Elves = 401
-Full Command, Spears, Light Armour, Shields, Banner of Arcane Protection

10 Archers = 110
- Longbows

Special
21 Swordmasters = 415
- Full Command (Bladelord has Obsidian Trinket and Ironcurse Icon), Heavy Armour, Great Weapons, Banner of Sorcery

7 Dragon Princes = 295
- Full Command (Drakemaster has Amulet of Light and Talisman of Protection), Lances, Barded Steeds, Dragon Armour, & Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Rare
2 x Great Eagles = 50/each

mr_gosh_the_return
26-05-2012, 23:11
The BSB can't have any other magic items, only the banner

thesheriff
26-05-2012, 23:59
First, I like the list :D

In this edition however, their is little point to taking a combat hero unless he is a bsb or is woefully undercounted for how good he is (ie: Lizardmen scar vet).

At the end if the day, if 7 dragon princes can't handle something, presumably with a flank charge, then adding a noble won't help. Compared to a standard prince, his damage output is definatly not worth it.

The high elf book is always gonna produce a very small army. So, duking your points out on charecters that can't cast or wave a flag is, in my view, a bad move.

For the 161pts he's worth, You could buy the bulk of a nice sized white lion unit. If you drop 7 swordsmasters (the extra rank will make them too much if a target, too much of a point sink and a bigger outline for stone throwers anyway), and the obsidian trinket, you would have 281pts. That would easily buy you a unit of 14 w/ CMD and amulet of light. You can then also switch the Banner of Sorcery onto them (as there more durable) and pick up the flaming banner for your Swordsmasters.

Also, your core. Rarely in a game have I seen 10 Archers do anything. And a unit of 40 Spearmen is a bit strange. I'm always a fan if steadfast blocks of high elf spears anchoring your opponents in place with a small frontage for your elites. Two units of 25 w/ CMD works out at 500 exactly. While, with t3 and 5+, they wont stand to elites in a stiff breeze, but to horde units or other steadfast units consisting of cheap troops (skaven particularly, but empire state troops and non-gw swinging marauders) they should fulfil a semi-decent role (you know, as far as high elf core goes). Alternatively, a unit of 50 w/ CMD and banner of "I can walk through terrain" works equally well, if in a different role. When mindrazored, not much can stand up to 51 ASF rerollin S8 attacks. Ive seen them clock up. And if nothing else, they provide a strong bunker for your Mage as well as some intimidation factor for your opponent.

thesheriff

Moss
27-05-2012, 00:46
The BSB can't have any other magic items, only the banner

He can have magic items as long as he doesn't take a magic banner.

LordBadgash
29-05-2012, 03:41
Hey guys,

Tournament is over, just thought I'd comment on the list. Overall, it wasn't bad. After 3 rounds I was in second, but ultimately the last game vs. Dark Elves cost me big and I ended up finishing 3rd out of 8.

In the first game I drew Bretonnia - after losing my Archmage to the Vortex on his FIRST SPELL, I battled back to earn a draw. My Noble on steed casting shield of Saphery helped him and the Dragon Princes tie up a Bretonnian lord of Griffon for almost 4 turns! Also, my spearelves held on a charge from 15 knights of the realm with a BSB - my BSB ultimately killed his in a 2 full turn long challenge and the archers flanking the knights turned the tide, they actually managed to kill a few knights and the added charge/flank points help me break them. Not only that, but as the spear elves failed to catch them as they needed a 12, the archers proceeded to roll double 6s!!

I also defeated an all orc army with trolls (thank you banner of eternal flame) Grimgor (thank you invulnerable arch mage) and a giant as well as a very defensive high elves list with a lvl 4 death, 2 lvl 2s (shadow, metal), 20 phoenix guard, 40 sea guard, 14 swordmasters. He depolyed deep and I started with my spear elves and swordmasters in reserve (meeting engagement) but a long distance charge by the dragon princes (needed an 11!!!) helped me roll his swordmasters on my flank and get in behind the big sea guard unit. A rear charge by the dragon princes and a frontal charge by my swordmasters (needing a 9 or 10!) and his sea guard were destroyed!

The final game was vs Dark Elves and a bad deployment error cost me the tournament. I deployed my swordmasters in front of his hydra and my dragon princes in front of his cold ones, instead of vice versa. His Hydra killed a bunch of swordmasters and he regened all his wounds except 1 and I lost the unit and archmage as they fled off the tables after 2 turns of fleeing and being less than 25% - no insane courage :(

Overall, the list was pretty good, I don't like relying so much on magic though and even though I had Mindrazor every game, I never got in the right position to use it, I was either too far away or my mage had already been destroyed by the time it was useful, I was also wary of using 6 dice and getting sucked into the vortex again.

Pit of shades worked wonders on the Orcs army (killed 7 of 10 boar boyz and half of Grimgor's 15 immortalz) but not so much against the high and dark elves.

I feel that the stubborn White Lions would be a better bunker (stubborn) for the archmage and BSB and might have made a difference in game 4 vs dark elves. I was also hurting for my beloved dispell scroll but managed to survive pretty well via all the magic resistance (banner of arcane protection, obsidian trinket).

I was pleasantly surprised by the effectiveness of the Noble BSB, the Noble on steed, the small archer unit (basically used to flank and redirect - the few arrows were just a bonus but didn't do much) the spearmen were solid, and the eagles were great.

I was dissapointed in the archmage the most and felt that the army relied too much on magic. I've tweaked the list (see below) to spend less on magic. I removed a lvl from the Archmage to make him cheaper. A Lvl 3 with silverwand still gets 4 spell, has +4 to dispell, and any key spells I want to get off, I'm usually throwing 5-6 dice anyway so the extra +1 isn't a huge deal if I get Irrisistable force. I also dropped the Banner of Sorcery - this gave me an extra 85 points to spend on troops, which I think is more worthwhile.

Here's the revised list'

Archmage (3) = 315
- Talisman of Saphery, Folaraith’s Robe, Silver Wand
Shadow

Heroes
Noble Battle Standard Bearer = 168
-Armour of Caledor, Guardian Phoenix, Great Weapon

Noble (1) = 165
- Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Luckstone, Dragon Armour, Great Weapon, Barded Steed
High Magic

Core
40 Spear Elves = 390
-Full Command, Spears, Light Armour, Shields, Gleaming Pennant

11 Archers = 121
- Longbows

Special
19 White Lions = 335
- Full Command (Guardian has Obsidian Trinket and Ironcurse Icon), Heavy Armour, Great Weapons, Lion Cloaks

10 Swordmasters = 150
- Great Weapons, Heavy Armour

6 Dragon Princes = 255
- Full Command (Drakemaster has Amulet of Light), Lances, Barded Steeds, Dragon Armour, & Shields, Banner of Eternal Flame

Rare
2 x Great Eagles = 50/each