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monkey10120
26-05-2012, 06:50
Can you have a temple guard unit with no slann?

also what is a good non magic build for lizardmen. I'm thinking of just having a lvl 2 sink priest for dispelling. I just wanna be a combat build.
If this was discussed before a link is all that is needed. :D

someone2040
26-05-2012, 11:09
You can have Temple Guard without Slann. But without a Slann they are overcosted, as they pay points for abilities they no longer get (Immune to Psych and Stubborn only when they're with a Slann).
So they're not that good if you don't take them with a Slann.

The Low King
26-05-2012, 13:55
Level 2 skink priest with diadam of power. As you are not using the PD its easily worth it.
If you can fit in another level 1 with Cube of darkness or a dispell scroll then even better.

monkey10120
28-05-2012, 04:49
I'll include a skink priest for sure.
Also for my build I'm throwing a oldblood in there, I just picked one up today, does he have a 2+ armor save? You get 4+ scaly skin,+1 for light armor and +1 for a shield and then a 6+ parry. I think it is right just seems too good. But I'm not complaining :D

Why
28-05-2012, 05:04
Oldbloods are too good compare to a elf lord and the difference in damage output is terrifying.

diggerydoom
28-05-2012, 14:01
But compared to a Scar Vet they are not such good value for money.....

As for Temple Guard, I think they are not really over pointed without a Slann- it is just that they become very good as bodyguards!

monkey10120
28-05-2012, 19:59
But compared to a Scar Vet they are not such good value for money.....

As for Temple Guard, I think they are not really over pointed without a Slann- it is just that they become very good as bodyguards!

I actually have a scar vet on its way.
I'm just throwing him in my temple unit since I'm not using my slann. He would beef it up a good amount.

Why
29-05-2012, 01:05
But compared to a Scar Vet they are not such good value for money.....

As for Temple Guard, I think they are not really over pointed without a Slann- it is just that they become very good as bodyguards!

Yes and a scar veteran still has almost twice the damage output of a elf lord:( This is without magic items of course.

Ebon
29-05-2012, 02:11
The elf lord is a lot faster though and will usually be hitting first.

TG are ok without a Slann but much better with one.

Malorian
29-05-2012, 16:52
Without the slann you are paying 5 points per model (compared to a shield saurus) to get 1 better armor save from shooting, but not have a 6+ parry in combat, have +1 WS, and +1 str, and take up special %.

The first part is a wash in my mind, and if you look at what orcs or even dwarfs pay to get +1 str and WS it's clear the temple guard are not pointed correctly if they aren't joined by a slann.

N810
29-05-2012, 18:53
But don't forget your TG champion can take one piece of cheep equipment, like a burning blade or maybe a mirror shield, also they can have a magic banner without a scarvet.

Malorian
29-05-2012, 19:09
But don't forget your TG champion can take one piece of cheep equipment, like a burning blade or maybe a mirror shield, also they can have a magic banner without a scarvet.

Still though, 5 points per model, how can you say that's worth it when stubborn isn't there?

Although I guess if you aren't taking a slann you aren't planning to be overly competitive anyway.

N810
29-05-2012, 19:13
It's probaly fairer to compair them to spear saurus, since they are the next most expensive saurus unit.
and they too do not get a 6+ perry save.

Malorian
29-05-2012, 19:25
But they get another attack, which is WAY better.

Unless we bring into the questionable issue of who charged, which is why I think plain saurus are a better comparision.

N810
29-05-2012, 20:18
Ok playing with the excelent Exccel based combat calculator, that used to be on this site,
it seems that after a bit of tweeking I figure in a straight fight between regular saurus wariors and temple guard.
in order to get a tie, you need to field 29 saurus wariors 6 wide, to equal 12 temple guard 6 wide.
each with full command. Then again this is only for one round of combat.

when comparing units of equal size, of 20 strong and 6 wide, temple are dishing out 6 wounds while saurus are only doing 3.

So 5 extra points does seem about right.

Malorian
29-05-2012, 20:37
You were giving the TK the shield armor in combat.


Here is some more math:

30 shield saurus are 330 points, which would allow for 21 temple guard.

Done in horde formation the saurus do 8.3 wounds, and the temple guard do 9.6, and the saurus have an extra rank bonus and are steadfast after losing by 0.3.

For this slight difference you are now needing more points to make up your core and have fewer wounds down on the table.


Edit: I'll give you this, of you are already running two hordes of saurus to fill up core and wanted to go saurus themed I could see a horde of temple guard becoming the center block. It would have to be horde though because any smaller and I'd just go with a steg.

N810
29-05-2012, 20:41
ahh that could be, I'll have to double check.

Nope it accounted for that...

Think maybe you forgot that TG go first???

here is your example:

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/nbundick/my%20stuff/untitled.jpg

monkey10120
30-05-2012, 06:52
ahh that could be, I'll have to double check.

Nope it accounted for that...

Think maybe you forgot that TG go first???

here is your example:

http://s96.photobucket.com/albums/l198/nbundick/my%20stuff/untitled.jpg

Quick question, what program is that?

N810
30-05-2012, 13:33
It's the "warhammer combat calculator" the name is on the picture,
basicly it's an excell database with a bunch of macros, so it needs excell to run.
It used to be in delevloupment by one of the users on this site untill gw shut it down.

Malorian
30-05-2012, 15:02
Hmmm, I thought they were the same init. With the TK hitting first it's no contest.

Interesting...

I think the killer at this point then is that you need to fill up your core so you'll already have a big unit or two of saurus, and after characters and other support you won't have room for a serious combat block of TK. You could make it work though given the points.

You've opened my eyes N810 :)

monkey10120
30-05-2012, 17:25
@N810 well that sucks it looks like a great tool.

Also I tried a quick 1000 pt game today to test out a small block of TG with an oldblood against the tomb kings. Since skellies stats were so low it would of have been no different using saurus over tg other than hitting first then having a +1 armor save. I'm going to try all saurus tonight and see the difference. The tg did do very good by the way holding off 3 chariots, 24 skellies with tomb king from the flank and a prince and his breath weapon from the rear. Probably a better decoy while my saurus and skinks were taking down units if archers and fast calv. This was a very small unit of 10 tg with an oldblood.

Also if you roll 6 to hit with poison the target still has an armor save and is not wounded straight away, correct?

Malorian
30-05-2012, 18:06
Also if you roll 6 to hit with poison the target still has an armor save and is not wounded straight away, correct?

Correct. You just bypass the to wound roll.

En Sabbah Nur
30-05-2012, 19:27
I do not deny the maths, but was it worthy to make Shield Saurus and TG fight together ? They have may be the lowest of initiative possible, what about trying with an infantry at quite the same cost, but from other races ?

N810
30-05-2012, 22:48
I tried a bunch of simulations, generally TG will easily take on horde of 20mm guys twice their size without much problems.
(I'll try and get some more specific stats tomorrow.)

roirin
31-05-2012, 12:08
Leading temple guard with a crown of command just about fixes their problems.

monkey10120
01-06-2012, 04:56
Alright now how do I beat a lord settra. I got my friend hooked on Warhammer and he loved the tomb kings so he went all out when he bought his army. I played him twice today and threw my krog-gar in and I tried to avoid it, but I got charged each time and my guy just keep getting destroyed. He has 4 attacks from steeds and 5 himself , ws 7 with a weapon that ignores armor saves with a 4 armor and ward save. And if I put a wound on him his priest or himself would just heal next turn. Tried to poison him with my skinks but I can't beat his saves.

N810
01-06-2012, 13:40
Hmmm you could try giving your old blood the banehead and parana blade, so he does 4 wounds for every ensaved wound, also don't forget that the carnie does d3 wounds.

monkey10120
01-06-2012, 14:11
Hmmm you could try giving your old blood the banehead and parana blade, so he does 4 wounds for every ensaved wound, also don't forget that the carnie does d3 wounds.

Actually I have my old blood as a scare vet because krog gar is so expensive and I gave him a burning blade of chotec because settra is flammable and the maiming shield for an extra attack. Ill try out the piranha blade tonight for sure.

bigbear bailey
01-06-2012, 21:38
to be fair about the tk guy he cant heal his chrs lol

monkey10120
02-06-2012, 01:31
to be fair about the tk guy he cant heal his chrs lol

he can't? That would be amazing

-Totenkopf-
02-06-2012, 01:52
no he cannot.. says right in the book.. I play both TK and Lizzies.. Lizzies are far superior.. Settra is a beast but easily dealt with.. Try avoid him, whittle down his unit then kill him with combat rez..

those steed attacks should not do anything.. An old blood on carnie or a well tooled scar vet should be taking him out...

monkey10120
02-06-2012, 02:09
no he cannot.. says right in the book.. I play both TK and Lizzies.. Lizzies are far superior.. Settra is a beast but easily dealt with.. Try avoid him, whittle down his unit then kill him with combat rez..

those steed attacks should not do anything.. An old blood on carnie or a well tooled scar vet should be taking him out...

alright next time I see him ill look at his book.
What do you mean by the steed attacks shouldn't do anything? You mean wound or not attack?

-Totenkopf-
02-06-2012, 02:15
They will attack, but ws2 str 3 hits shouldnt be killing anything but skinks.. I run a chariot heavy list and sometimes my steeds are amped up on drugs or something because they kick butt, however, that shouldnt happen..

also, razordons dont get much internet love but they do perform very well vs chariots. especially if they get charged by them.. still best to avoid being charged by chariots though..

monkey10120
02-06-2012, 02:24
I think his steed put 1 wound on my krog-gor in one of my combats. And for chariots I can them down pretty easy. Skinks make a perfect screen. Then I throw my old blood out tg in there and I can kill 3 easily in one combat. Happened 3 times, just hope my luck stays

Ximinipot
14-06-2012, 14:25
But they get another attack, which is WAY better.

Unless we bring into the questionable issue of who charged, which is why I think plain saurus are a better comparision.

Saurus Warriors, whether hand weapon and shield or spear, and Temple Guard have 2 attacks standard with the champions getting 3. I'm not sure where you're getting that they get an extra attack. If you're not taking a Slann, they aren't worth the 5 extra point cost in my eyes.

Ximinipot
14-06-2012, 14:30
Alright now how do I beat a lord settra. I got my friend hooked on Warhammer and he loved the tomb kings so he went all out when he bought his army. I played him twice today and threw my krog-gar in and I tried to avoid it, but I got charged each time and my guy just keep getting destroyed. He has 4 attacks from steeds and 5 himself , ws 7 with a weapon that ignores armor saves with a 4 armor and ward save. And if I put a wound on him his priest or himself would just heal next turn. Tried to poison him with my skinks but I can't beat his saves.

An Old Blood on a Carnosaur with Blade Of Realities will handle Settra easily without too many issues. Settra is one tough cookie though.