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Siphen
27-05-2012, 08:49
Can someone please explain exactly how Red Fury (Vampire Counts) works with multiple wounds against multi-wound models? Take the special character Konrad against Ogres, for example. He has Red Fury and a weapon that has the Multiple Wounds (2) special rule. How do his extra attacks work?

There are three ways I can see to interpret it:

1. If he deals 4 wounds (which would turn into 8), he only gets 4 additional attacks. He's only inflicting 4 wounds...they're just being multiplied.

2. He deals 4 wounds, which gets multiplied into 8...but that would only be able to kill 2 Ogres (I believe?), so he would get 6 additional attacks.

3. Or he deals 4 wounds, which gets multiplied into 8...and gets 8 additional attacks, even if it's not dealing a full 8 wounds to the ogres.

Maybe none of those are correct - I'm not sure. Please help!

Thanks in advance!

T10
27-05-2012, 09:14
Option 3.

From the Red Fury description it is obvious that each hit can generate more than one bonus attack due to causing more than one wound.

If Konrad has Frenzy then his potential is pretty impressive: 5 attacks may cause up to wounds, the next 10 attacks may cause up to 20 wounds: This is 10 dead Ogres.

Notice that you can get re-rolls To Hit and re-rolls To Wound from Van Hel's Danse Makabre and Hellish Vigour with the Lore of Vampires. :)

-T10

bildo
27-05-2012, 09:31
wounds are different to kills btw, he can cause 4 wounds, multiply to 8 (killing 2 ogres and causing 2 wounds to another) and this would allow him 8 more attacks.

in conclusion, dont let him near your ogres, throw gnoblars at him or turn him away with sabretusks

Wesser
27-05-2012, 09:31
He already has rerolls to hit from hatred...

But aside from tha Konrad is the only one in the VC book that can do multiple wounds and magic item allows it...unless SoM or something has one

woodster17
27-05-2012, 11:26
Konrad is freaking nasty- but not as nasty as he was in 7th actually with eternal hatred. Kind of annoying that eternal hatred is only specific to Ghoul Kings now, enjoyed having that as a vampiric power upgrade.

Askari
27-05-2012, 11:35
He already has rerolls to hit from hatred...

But aside from tha Konrad is the only one in the VC book that can do multiple wounds and magic item allows it...unless SoM or something has one

Urgh, Red Fury + Dawnstar Sword from Storm of Magic... absolutely disgusting.


Konrad is freaking nasty- but not as nasty as he was in 7th actually with eternal hatred. Kind of annoying that eternal hatred is only specific to Ghoul Kings now, enjoyed having that as a vampiric power upgrade.

Vampires get an Always Strikes First power now, it's far more useful as with their super high Initiative you still get re-rolls to hit against most things, and get to strike simultaneous with other ASF users as well.

T10
27-05-2012, 13:06
He already has rerolls to hit from hatred...

But aside from tha Konrad is the only one in the VC book that can do multiple wounds and magic item allows it...unless SoM or something has one

If you're playing SoM games, then everything is crazy as-is. :) Konrad may be able to kill umpteen models with the proper spells and boosts, but you can just summon those models right back.

Texhnolyze
27-05-2012, 17:02
If you're playing SoM games, then everything is crazy as-is. :) Konrad may be able to kill umpteen models with the proper spells and boosts, but you can just summon those models right back.

If SoM is involved, I would not worry about konrad as much as I would worry about that vampire lord with red fury and dawnstarsword. Don't let that vampire player get full power... he can potentially kill entire tables of ogres ^^

GodlessM
27-05-2012, 17:39
If SoM is involved, I would not worry about konrad as much as I would worry about that vampire lord with red fury and dawnstarsword. Don't let that vampire player get full power... he can potentially kill entire tables of ogres ^^

Am I missing something here? Is Konrad with the Dawnstar Sword not a Vampire with Red Fury and the Dawnstar Sword?

Mr_Rose
27-05-2012, 17:47
Am I missing something here? Is Konrad with the Dawnstar Sword not a Vampire with Red Fury and the Dawnstar Sword?

Well, no, not really; Konrad, for all that he's a walking blender, is only a hero level character and has a fixed set of gear; if you know you're going to have the dawn star sword or whatever, you can use that knowledge to build a far more destructive custom Lord with some ease. One that can actually use Fulcrums too. And still have Konrad around chopping up minor threats.

The bearded one
27-05-2012, 17:49
Am I missing something here? Is Konrad with the Dawnstar Sword not a Vampire with Red Fury and the Dawnstar Sword?

Konrad's sword causes 2 wounds if a wound goes through unsaved. But I guess the danwstar sword would replace his regular sword.

madival
27-05-2012, 17:52
How does konrads multiple wounds work against rank and file with 1 wound ? Would he still get 2 attacks per wound?

Siphen
27-05-2012, 18:08
Thanks for the replies! I guess I'm still a little unsure about how multiple wounds work. Let's say he deals 5 wounds. Wouldn't 3 of those wounds go to one Ogre? Even if they're doubled to 6, weren't all of the wounds were dealt to the same model?
Or if they're doubled before the wounds are "assigned", wouldn't 2 wounds still go to the same Ogre (resulting in a wasted "overkill" wound)?

Sorry for my confusion - I'm still relatively new to WHFB. Thanks!

The bearded one
27-05-2012, 18:17
How does konrads multiple wounds work against rank and file with 1 wound ? Would he still get 2 attacks per wound?

He'll slaughter them very, very brutally, but the wounds won't carry over to other models, so because they have only 1 wound to lose, konrad counts as inflicting 1 wound. If it were in a challenge against a 1-wound champion, I guess he does get additional attacks for a very brutal overkill.

Mr_Rose
27-05-2012, 18:34
Thanks for the replies! I guess I'm still a little unsure about how multiple wounds work. Let's say he deals 5 wounds. Wouldn't 3 of those wounds go to one Ogre? Even if they're doubled to 6, weren't all of the wounds were dealt to the same model?
Or if they're doubled before the wounds are "assigned", wouldn't 2 wounds still go to the same Ogre (resulting in a wasted "overkill" wound)?

Sorry for my confusion - I'm still relatively new to WHFB. Thanks!
Quite simply, wounds are not assigned to models except in special cases like characters and Monster mounts; they are assigned to Units instead and, every time enough wounds are built up to kill a model, one is removed from the unit.
Normally this is easy to work out since most units consist of one-wound models and so every wounding hit kills a model. Whereas with multi-wound guys like ogres, you wait until there are enough wounds on the unit first.

Weapons that deal multiple wounds follow exactly the same rules regarding wound accumulation and model removal, except that there's an extra step where you work out how many wounds each hit does instead of the default (one) before assigning them to the unit and working out how many models to remove. There is one important caveat though; no matter how badass your supersword, you can't do more wounds per hit than would be enough to kill a single model.
So even with the Dawnstar Sword at max. power, you can't do more than 3W per hit to a unit of ogres. Or more than 1W per hit to a unit of Empire Halberdiers.

Texhnolyze
27-05-2012, 23:42
So even with the Dawnstar Sword at max. power, you can't do more than 3W per hit to a unit of ogres. Or more than 1W per hit to a unit of Empire Halberdiers.

It's still enough to kill 40 ogres in one round of combat ;)

Mr_Rose
28-05-2012, 00:20
Throw in a potion of foolhardiness too...

Askari
28-05-2012, 08:39
Throw in a potion of foolhardiness too...

Or Savage Beast of Horros, or Birona's Timewarp.

the_picto
28-05-2012, 10:15
Vampires get an Always Strikes First power now, it's far more useful as with their super high Initiative you still get re-rolls to hit against most things, and get to strike simultaneous with other ASF users as well.

Debatable. There's various things in the game that will remove your ASF, some stuff with higher initiative than a vampire and an entire army with ASF as well as various units in other armies, all of which will deny you your re-rolls. Against everything else the vampire is hitting first anyway so the ASF part is a waste. At least infinite hatred gives you re-rolls all the time. Is there anything in the game which will negate hatred?

Askari
28-05-2012, 10:29
Debatable. There's various things in the game that will remove your ASF, some stuff with higher initiative than a vampire and an entire army with ASF as well as various units in other armies, all of which will deny you your re-rolls. Against everything else the vampire is hitting first anyway so the ASF part is a waste. At least infinite hatred gives you re-rolls all the time. Is there anything in the game which will negate hatred?

I don't think so no, but I'd still rather guarantee a hit in and have hit first and re-rolls the vast majority of the time, than just re-rolls all the time and the possibility of dying before you strike. There isn't all that much that negates ASF either... Bat Swarms, that Ogre Kingdoms monster, the Nightshroud. Anything else?

woodster17
28-05-2012, 10:55
I don't think so no, but I'd still rather guarantee a hit in and have hit first and re-rolls the vast majority of the time, than just re-rolls all the time and the possibility of dying before you strike. There isn't all that much that negates ASF either... Bat Swarms, that Ogre Kingdoms monster, the Nightshroud. Anything else?

High Elves.... :P

Mr_Rose
28-05-2012, 10:56
Don't hold your breath, but I wouldn't be even slightly surprised if the new version of the Chill Wind spell removed ASF, or granted ASL, when the DE book gets redone.
Don't quote me on that either.

But yeah, not much out there that goes out of its way to kill ASF really.

Duke_of_Krondor
28-05-2012, 11:00
High elf standard of balance removes hatred and frenzy for any unit in base contact. That's the only thing I can think of

Askari
28-05-2012, 11:05
High Elves.... :P

High Elves don't cancel ASF, they just also have it. Infact they're an excellent reason to take Quickblood, so that even if they kill you, you can strike down 12 or so of them.

woodster17
28-05-2012, 11:43
High Elves don't cancel ASF, they just also have it. Infact they're an excellent reason to take Quickblood, so that even if they kill you, you can strike down 12 or so of them.

Well by extension they do cancel ASF from an opponent because it reverts back to standard game rules when you face a HE unit in combat if you have the ASF rule. Speed of Asuryan may not actually say 'negates ASF' from opponents but in reality it does because of HE's generally high Initiative compared to everyone else.

Mr_Rose
28-05-2012, 12:18
Well by extension they do cancel ASF from an opponent because it reverts back to standard game rules when you face a HE unit in combat if you have the ASF rule. Speed of Asuryan may not actually say 'negates ASF' from opponents but in reality it does because of HE's generally high Initiative compared to everyone else.

Uh, no?
The ASF rules are pretty explicit on what happens when both sides have it, and it's not what you just said.

woodster17
28-05-2012, 13:12
Uh, no?
The ASF rules are pretty explicit on what happens when both sides have it, and it's not what you just said.

Yeah got my rulebook open and I didn't explain that very well. My bad. Basically 'it's very difficult to strike first against HE's' was the jist of my point, written in a bad riddle there. Kudos on replying in a constructive manner though...

Vipoid
28-05-2012, 14:10
I don't think so no, but I'd still rather guarantee a hit in and have hit first and re-rolls the vast majority of the time, than just re-rolls all the time and the possibility of dying before you strike. There isn't all that much that negates ASF either... Bat Swarms, that Ogre Kingdoms monster, the Nightshroud. Anything else?

High Elves... :shifty:

Askari
28-05-2012, 16:56
High Elves.... :P


High Elves... :shifty:

Are we repeating the same argument? :p High Elves do not negate ASF!

Vipoid
28-05-2012, 17:05
Are we repeating the same argument? :p High Elves do not negate ASF!

Sorry - didn't notice the second page. :p

In terms of ASF, High Elves don't exactly cancel it, but they certainly cancel the rerolls (going back to the Hatred vs ASF argument).

Iraf
28-05-2012, 17:17
Strigoi vampire w/ red fury, quick blood, and the Sword of Bloodshed ftw.

sulla
30-05-2012, 07:22
Am I missing something here? Is Konrad with the Dawnstar Sword not a Vampire with Red Fury and the Dawnstar Sword?If he has a magic weapon, he can't take the dawnstar sword. (Not a VC player so I don't know if he does have a magic weapon.)

Mid'ean
30-05-2012, 13:32
If he has a magic weapon, he can't take the dawnstar sword. (Not a VC player so I don't know if he does have a magic weapon.)

He does. And your right.......Can't change his equipment.....:D