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Wesser
27-05-2012, 19:49
Going to play and alliance with an alliance of Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings holding out against an invasion from the insidious high elves tomorrow.

Trouble is: A lot of spells and items in both undead armies targets or affects "friendly undead units within..."

Question is: For the purposes of spells such as Vanhels or items such as Staff of Damnation: Is Nehekharan undead and VC undead 2 separate things?


I'm little unsure because TK with access to VC spells seems very powerful, but we'll have a terribly weak magic phase if not



Maybe VC and TK just aint meant to be allies? Can anyone help me out here?

bad dice
27-05-2012, 20:05
It's two different things
And indeed they are not meant to be allies
In fact they are (in)mortal enemies.
TK beeing the original rules of Nehekhara and the VC beeing the followers of their greatest enemy Naghas.

But that's fluff wise rules wise it's a suspicious alliance (see page 138)

Also like the rule book says alliances can lead to some rules questions that are unsure. So its best to talk it over whit the other players in the game first
Maby you can find some middle ground. Like VC not beeing bale to raise TK but TK beeing affected by other spells

But strictly rules wise. Then no you can't use those spells on the other armie.

Wesser
27-05-2012, 20:32
I don't suppose you can point me to those rules?

Suspicious allies can target each other's units with augments, thats not question. But since several spells only affects "undead" my question stands:

It's because the TK book lore have 2 spells/effects namely the signature spell and lore attribute that specifies that they must be nehekharan undead while the rest of the lore only says undead...

Ister Flersson
27-05-2012, 20:41
Since neither vampire counts or tomb kings define their undead rules as "VC undead" or "TK undead", then it should really be considered the same thing. While powerful, strictly ruleswise you should be able to target the other army´s units, as they are in fact friendly undead units.

bad dice
27-05-2012, 21:11
Ehh they do you know VC are Undead and TK are nehekaran undead
And those rules are diffrend

But in the TK FAQ they state that nehekaran undead are also undead. (but that is odd cause those 2 rules contradict each other but nevermind i gues they mean for the purpose of spells and such)
So one could assume that most spells from te VC could affect TK undead units and only one or 2 spells of TK could affect VC

Like is said there is a bit of a difference so its best to talk whit the other players about it.

Spell S,2,3 mention nehekharan undead in some way.


Personly i would say that useing all spells except each others raise spells on other units would seem fair
That's about the same as it would be for any other set of 2 suspicious allies.

That would seem fairer to me than useing the raw rules cause those would work out a bit wierd

For instance you could target a VC count unit whit a TK augment but if you cast the bubble it would not effect it.

GodlessM
28-05-2012, 01:28
Strictly RAW the VC spells work on TK, but the TK spells do not work on VC, however as others have pointed out, it seems unlikely it was meant to be played that way. One more for the VC FAQ if it ever shows it.

Iraf
28-05-2012, 05:01
One more for the VC FAQ if it ever shows it.

It seems odd that they haven't came out with the VC FAQ by now.

Mr_Rose
28-05-2012, 10:18
Strictly RAW the VC spells work on TK, but the TK spells do not work on VC, however as others have pointed out, it seems unlikely it was meant to be played that way. One more for the VC FAQ if it ever shows it.

Actually, it makes perfect sense that it works that way if you look at the fluff as a reason; nehekharan undead technically predate Nagash's work, since they were preserved with ancient Nehekharan rituals before the Great Awakening, which Nagash based his corrupted magicks upon. It's like software backwards compatibility in that respect.

Soundwave
28-05-2012, 13:31
Ugh! Sticky sticky mess.That would also include mortis engines and corpse carts.Better clarify before the game begins on the yes and no no"s.I would say go for it all as it is stated "friendly undead units" Your using 2 well balanced 8th ed books as opposed to nasty 7th edd high elves with vortex shard and a hundred and one other magic phase ham stringers.I play both vamps and high elves and would allow it all.From either party its still a fantastic challenge.

Soundwave
28-05-2012, 13:43
Bad allies pff you should try high elves and dark elves,yes sad but true avoid it at all costs short comings filled by both partys offensive magic,defensive magic,hard hitting infantry hard hitting monsters.Needless to say our orc and goblin alliance with vampires was wiped.Still a fun game although exceptionally hard to stomach it took place just prior to the sundering we figured.(shh)

Jennifer
29-05-2012, 09:26
I'm really sorry to burst your bubble but read this from page 9 of the FAQ:

Choosing Your Army

Q: It’s not uncommon for special rules or spells to beneficially
affect models of a certain type. If my opponent’s army also has such
models, can they be affected too? What about allied units on my own
side? (p132 & p136)

A: Special rules and spells such as this only ever affect friendly
units from their own army, and will not affect enemy or allied
units that happen to be in range.

Until this was pointed out to me, I also thought that the Tomb Kings would benefit from Vampire spellcasting, especially the Lore atrtibute that would heal our characters. Alas it was not to be.

Wesser
29-05-2012, 17:03
Aha

Well thanks Jennifer. Judging from that it seems Vamps and Tomb Kings indeed makes terrible allies since they'll be unable to target each other's army at all.

Luckily it never came up in our game as magic simply sucked, and there's 6000 points less high elves out there

dms505
29-05-2012, 17:27
Note: "Friendly" undead. Allies doesn't assume friendship haha. I would suggest an item that allows for extra casting dice on your turn or for your wizard.