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monkey10120
28-05-2012, 05:23
So what is the advantage of one over the other?

It seems that spears should always be chosen if given the choice because the rank bonus. other than that I don't see why you would go hand weapon. However the BRB makes it seems as only a hand weapon grants a parry save. So that would mean a spearmen with a shield would get a 6+ armor save but no parry? I'm just asking because it seems hard to not chose a spear over a hw and with no parry that would give a good reason.

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Iraf
28-05-2012, 06:00
Yes, hand/shield only get the parry. Spear/shield does not get parry.

Soundwave
28-05-2012, 14:55
Also take into account your opponent if you know your playing chaos and expecting mass amounts of high strength attacks swordsmen and there like are a great tactical option for that touch of added endurance before flankers arrive to bail you out.My chaos warrior horde once dished out 22 wounds on a skink horde the skinks somehow parried 18 of them yes true story 18 out of 22 6"s!

Capt._Jaelinek
28-05-2012, 15:39
I think spears are the wy to go if you have deep ranks and are holding a position.

Hand weapon shield is better for fewer ranks and more manuevaerable troops.

GodlessM
28-05-2012, 17:55
Unless you unit is capable of dishing out some damage then Spears are not worth it. Saurus for instance can make great use of Spears if they are not deploying as a horde, but Goblins are better off with the parries.

T10
28-05-2012, 21:42
Unless you unit is capable of dishing out some damage then Spears are not worth it. Saurus for instance can make great use of Spears if they are not deploying as a horde, but Goblins are better off with the parries.

Seems to me that taking spears for low-end troops like Goblins puts the player in the uncomfortable position of having to find the right situation to use them, as opposed to just giving them hand weapons and shields and pushing them in the way of what-ever shows up. After all, parry saves are good against all kinds of enemies. Except Impact Hits. And Stomps. And enemies that have flanked you.

GodlessM
28-05-2012, 21:48
Seems to me that taking spears for low-end troops like Goblins puts the player in the uncomfortable position of having to find the right situation to use them, as opposed to just giving them hand weapons and shields and pushing them in the way of what-ever shows up. After all, parry saves are good against all kinds of enemies. Except Impact Hits. And Stomps. And enemies that have flanked you.

Which is just the long version of what I said.

T10
28-05-2012, 22:00
It was not my intent to repeat yours. I was merely hinting that taking spears means you have to take you warhammer skills to the next level: they are tools that allow you to different things in the game, and if you never take them you'll never find what use they have.

Unfortunately they are also crappy tools.

stashman
28-05-2012, 22:51
From Da Warpath

Well my previous math I did was HE spearmen, but I can't find the thread. So lets do another:

A generic WS4,S4,T4 opponent. HW LA Shield. Both units 5 wide. For sake of convenience nets are successful.

NG with Handweapon
2.3 losses
0.9 kills

NG with Spears
2.7 losses
1.4 kills

Again both balance out pretty much. The benefit of spears though is the models you are killing off the table inevitably have higher pts value than the weedy goblins you are losing.

Hoshiyami
29-05-2012, 03:48
From Da Warpath

Well my previous math I did was HE spearmen, but I can't find the thread. So lets do another:

A generic WS4,S4,T4 opponent. HW LA Shield. Both units 5 wide. For sake of convenience nets are successful.

NG with Handweapon
2.3 losses
0.9 kills

NG with Spears
2.7 losses
1.4 kills

Again both balance out pretty much. The benefit of spears though is the models you are killing off the table inevitably have higher pts value than the weedy goblins you are losing.

It's balanced because the number of 'original' casualties (before parry save) were 6 times the kills estimated for 5 goblins.
10 x 2/3 x 1/2 x 5/6 (original casualties) vs. 5 x 1/2 x 1/3 x 2/3 x 5/6 (5 goblin casualties)


Change the opponent and you'll have a different milleage. Make him stronger and/or toughter and HW&shield will become better. Make him weaker and/or less resilient and spears will have the upper hand.

Spears will be better when you find a case where one extra row attacks make more damage than 1/6 of the opponent output damage. For example, if you try crossing a troop with itself (both in a 5 front unit), 5 extra means more than the 1/6 of 10 total attacks that would be 'canceled' by the parry. But as warhammer world is really full of scary creatures and you'll be facing them with your troops, HW&shield are the safe option.

T10
29-05-2012, 13:46
Killing more enemies work in your favour if you are trying to do something about the enemy's steadfast status. :)

-T10

Naanomi
29-05-2012, 16:37
Killing more enemies work in your favour if you are trying to do something about the enemy's steadfast status. :)

Alternatively, saving a model or two works in your favor if your cheap tarpit is trying to keep it's steadfast status

dms505
29-05-2012, 16:54
On my Lizard Saurus units I run 2 units on 25 (5x5) with spears and 1 unit of 18 or 21 (3x6, 3x7) with HW and Shield. I love the power of the spear units and the deep ranks and but I like having annoyance of a wide block with the little extra save as a mother of a roadblock. The sword and shield group has held up Hydras, Sphinxs and even Chaos Warriors for 2 or 3 turns or won outright. If I only had 2 unites I'd run them both with spears, but since I have 3 I run run 1 just a little different just in case I need something to perform a different roll.

Capt._Jaelinek
30-05-2012, 04:58
Spears are useless on a charge. HW & Shield - still parries. I agree with T10 - spears are crappy tools in general. I would NEVER pay points for spears unless I never planned on charging.

dms505
31-05-2012, 15:41
To me it depends on the possibility for those attacks to kill. On a S4 attack against mostly T3 opponents the 3rd row can make a difference. If I were running S3 against T3, I may not run spears. Also the cost of the spears compared to the cost of the model. At 11pt a Saurus is already at medium point cost and adding 1 isn't breaking the bank. If I had skinks at 5 points each and S3, I wouldn't take spears. ( yes I know skinks don't have that options, just giving an example)

BooTMGSG
31-05-2012, 17:19
I've always gone for sword and board over spears.
As a note on Saurus warriors, I've never felt they really benifit from spear. Part of their kill potential is in their two attacks, which makes up for their poor WS. With spears you don't get the full benifit of the Saurus killing power, when say compared to High elves, whose High WS and one attack is not diminished by the the extra rank attack. I might consider it if it was a free upgrade, but the loss of parry for 5-6 extra attacks doesn't seem worth 1pt.

Smogg
31-05-2012, 19:18
I think in general hand weapon are the safer option. I usually go with spears myself because I just have a lot of those models, but they usually don't swing things for me offensively. I would say though, with a couple of boost effects on the skeletons, the extra rank of attacks can begin to matter. If you plan a large unit and magic boosting, then think about it, but if you just want them to last while they can on their own, then defenetly hand weapons.

Capt._Jaelinek
01-06-2012, 00:29
I forgot about high elves getting 2 ranks instead of 1 for spears. The whole HE book makes me angry! The dark elves are supposed to be reknown spear fighters but they get spanked by high elves.

Sorry off topic, rant over.

I could see how high elf spears might be worth it. I think Saurus would be much better off with the ward save then the extra few attacks. Skinks take blow guns!

Maybe clanrats might be good with spears, but I think you have to pay for it. Might be worth it if it's free.

Warlord Gnashgrod
04-06-2012, 06:06
spears were a bit better in general before the step up rule. Now not as much. Especially if you want to do the charging. It also depends on the unit. I don't give my clanrats spears because I'd prefer to have more clanrats in general than more attacks. Clanrats don't often do very much damage in hth anyway. so an extra chance to survive with the parry ward and having more models is worth more with the clanrats, IMO.

dms505
04-06-2012, 15:27
I've always gone for sword and board over spears.
As a note on Saurus warriors, I've never felt they really benifit from spear. Part of their kill potential is in their two attacks, which makes up for their poor WS. With spears you don't get the full benifit of the Saurus killing power . .

How exactly does having spear take away from their killing power? I understand they wouldn't get a 6+ ward save but it as far as I know it doesn't effect their number of attacks and thus only adds to the units killing power by adding 5-6 more attacks unless charging. Also as I mentioned earlier the 5-6 extra S4 attacks can make a good difference as opposed to a human with only a S3 attack from the third rank. Also magic buffs and debuffs are fairly common for most Lizard builds which can make the extra ranks more hits do 3-4 more wounds per round for barely 25 points. But honestly it depends on how you play and what army.