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Soundwave
05-06-2012, 19:00
According to the spell description "Both Caster and Target roll a d6 and add Their respective unmodified leadership values." I am assuming this is strictly between the caster and target with no other factors for inspiring presence characters in the unit and so forth. A cheesy example of this would be if my lvl 4 dark elf sorceress ld 9 was to target a plague furnace ld - we would both roll a d6 add our ld values witch in this case is zero.The furnace rolls a 6 and i roll a 3 plus and its dead.
Another example would be rider(lord level,high leadership) and monstrous mount(generally average leadership) i Target the monster same scenario as above or not,does the leadership value from the rider apply?

RanaldLoec
05-06-2012, 19:06
This has been discussed before.

A mount and rider are treated as a single model.

The brb is very specific about riders and mounts stating that the mounts leadership is never used.

Gargobot
05-06-2012, 19:21
From the FAQ (p4):

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified leadership. What is your unmodified leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. Do not include any modifiers from
any source, for example, Strength in Numbers, Inspiring
Presence or the Doom and Darkness spell.
Taking your example of the Furnace, it would at least use the Plague Priest's LD of 6, if there was a Warlord or Grey Seer in the unit even 7.

Soundwave
05-06-2012, 19:34
So in context a level 1 Necromancer ld 7 in a unit with a vampire lord ld 10 will b useing his leadership for purpose of the spell even though it stipulates the caster and targets unmodified ld?

Soundwave
05-06-2012, 19:41
No a mounts leadership is never used for cavalry and monstrous cavalry only.Not ridden chariots,monsters or unique units whom would use the special rules as described in cavalry and the highest leadership as a combined unit.

Lord Inquisitor
05-06-2012, 19:50
That FAQ is pretty weird though. It seems to be written from the perspective of an unmodified Ld test, which would make sense to use the highest Ld characteristic in the unit. When I first read that FAQ I was surprised by it but I immediately made the connection that you could use a high-ld characters in the same unit to allow wizards to Spirit Leech using the highest value in the unit (so yes, necromancers can use a vampire's Ld10 in the same unit). However, I've been reasonably convinced since then, after several discussions where I've argued that the unmodified Ld of a model IS the highest in the unit, that this isn't the intent of the FAQ, which really was clearly thinking about an unmodified Ld test and the ambiguous "your" doesn't really convince me that this is the same thing. "What is a model's unmodified LD", which really is the question we want to know the answer to. Instead the FAQ seems to be answering "what is a unit's unmodified LD". "What is your unmodified LD" is vague and it isn't clear which of those questions it is asking.

Overall we could really do with a clarification to that FAQ. Given that it starts with "when taking a Ld test" it is not terribly convincing that the individual model's Ld should suddenly be the highest in the unit and that's very doubtful that's really the intent of the spell either.

T10
05-06-2012, 20:52
It seems obvious to me that the designers forgot to properly distinguish between a UNIT and a MODEL in a unit using characteristic.

Wesser
05-06-2012, 21:41
It seems obvious to me that the designers forgot to properly distinguish between a UNIT and a MODEL in a unit using characteristic.

Indeed. Also does Inspiring Presence counts for purposes of unmodified leadership?

Because if someone claimed they could use their units/generals/whomevers leadership for the purposes this spell I would certainly demand that the target could use the same. It would still be an incredibly beardy claim though

bama
05-06-2012, 23:54
This has been discussed before.

A mount and rider are treated as a single model.

The brb is very specific about riders and mounts stating that the mounts leadership is never used.

I thought I read an FAQ that specifically talked about targeting a characters mount. It use an orc on a wyvern. It allowed the moster to be targeted and said that the monsters leadership was used for the test.

The reason that I think that FAQ for unmodified leadership doesn't work for the death spells is because there is no leadership test. The FAQ talks about making a "leadership" test using the highest unmodified leadership in the unit or the generals inspiring leadership. Spirit leech doesn't say anything about taking a leadership test. It only talks about using the models unmodifed leadership. I interpret that to mean that no bonuses from any source can affect the leadership for the purposes of Spirit Leech.

RanaldLoec
06-06-2012, 00:14
I thought I read an FAQ that specifically talked about targeting a characters mount. It use an orc on a wyvern. It allowed the moster to be targeted and said that the monsters leadership was used for the test.

The reason that I think that FAQ for unmodified leadership doesn't work for the death spells is because there is no leadership test. The FAQ talks about making a "leadership" test using the highest unmodified leadership in the unit or the generals inspiring leadership. Spirit leech doesn't say anything about taking a leadership test. It only talks about using the models unmodifed leadership. I interpret that to mean that no bonuses from any source can affect the leadership for the purposes of Spirit Leech.

Pg 11 of the brb faq.

It talks about the fate of bujna (spelling?) Targeting specific parts of a unit.

And your right it says to use the wyverns toughness.

So its left for you to interpret if this over rules the basic rule of you never usr the mounts leadership as the rider is assumed to be in full control at all times.

FLUEVOG
06-06-2012, 00:27
Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are in a
unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc
Warboss on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss or
the Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the
target. (Reference)
A: Yes.

Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Emphasis mine

Soundwave
06-06-2012, 04:04
Its a particular knicker twister!So in the case of the plague furnace,corpse carts ,chariots and the like i think using the highest leadership would be fair to avoid breaking any games.As far as the Caster being allowed and the unmodified leadership of his unit i would say no.What rules do you and your fellow gamers play by?

Lord Inquisitor
06-06-2012, 05:24
Note that for any normal multipart model like a chariot you certainly use the highest value on the profile. I don't think that's in question. Only with character ridden monsters can the rider/mount be picked out, which makes it more tricky.

decker_cky
06-06-2012, 06:18
Q: Can spells that pick out individual models, even if they are in a
unit, choose what is hit when targeting a model with multiple
locations? For example The Fate of Bjuna is cast at an Orc
Warboss on a Wyvern, the caster can choose to target the Warboss or
the Wyvern and it will be resolved against the Toughness of the
target. (Reference)
A: Yes.

Q. For characteristic tests, is the best value in the unit always
used? (p10)
A. If the unit is required to take a characteristic test, the best
value in the unit is used. If every model in a unit is required to
take a characteristic test, then each model uses its own best
value instead.

Emphasis mine

Leadership tests are not characteristic tests as per page 10.

Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit as per the FAQ. That's the only rule for interpreting any instance of unmodified leadership in the game.

Soundwave
06-06-2012, 07:57
Also note all the spells in question are not tests of any kind they are using characteristic profile comparisons.

Lord Inquisitor
06-06-2012, 19:26
Unmodified leadership is the highest leadership in the unit as per the FAQ.
The FAQ question is this: "What is your unmodified Leadership?"

Define "your".

Does it mean "a model's" or does it mean "a unit's"? Or both?

I'm not sure we can make a definitive statement one way or the other without clarification. Certainly a Ld test on unmodified Ld would be the highest in the unit without bonuses or penalties.

decker_cky
07-06-2012, 06:11
Test or not is irrelevant. We're given a definition of what unmodified leadership is. There's two options for interpreting this:
1.) The definition applies to both models and units.
2.) You make up a house rule.

Any interpretation aside from 1 requires you to invent a rule, so at the present time, 1 is the only possible correct interpretation. Maybe GW doesn't intend that, and will later change the rule, but that's just speculating and there's no rules to support the alternative. By occam's razor unmodified leadership must be the same for units and models (which makes sense given what the definition was).

Soundwave
07-06-2012, 18:28
Thankyou decker-cky! To really shoot ones self in the foot most of the death magics spells specify "single model targets" which do not include cav mounts, shared or combined unit yet the given faq for fate of bunja from g.w itself includes a combined unit. the best and most attractive option here would be to create our own guidelines through commonsense and playability. Any suggestions?

Mostream
11-06-2012, 13:09
Test or not is irrelevant. We're given a definition of what unmodified leadership is. There's two options for interpreting this:
1.) The definition applies to both models and units.
2.) You make up a house rule.

Any interpretation aside from 1 requires you to invent a rule, so at the present time, 1 is the only possible correct interpretation. Maybe GW doesn't intend that, and will later change the rule, but that's just speculating and there's no rules to support the alternative. By occam's razor unmodified leadership must be the same for units and models (which makes sense given what the definition was).

I didn't get that last sentence, could you elaborate? In the Big Red's FaQ Okkam's mindrazor doesn't use unmodified leadership. It uses the models own Ld characteristics instead of their str (FaQ BRB 1.5).

dementian
12-06-2012, 04:37
I didn't get that last sentence, could you elaborate? In the Big Red's FaQ Okkam's mindrazor doesn't use unmodified leadership. It uses the models own Ld characteristics instead of their str (FaQ BRB 1.5).

Not sure if trollin but...

He said Occam's razor not Okkam's Mindrazor,

Where from wikipedia occam's razor is a principle urging one to select from among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

Mostream
12-06-2012, 11:53
I've never heard of Occam's razor before so I assumed it was the spell and didn't get it.

LiddellHart
12-06-2012, 12:03
It took a mentioning by dr sheldon cooper for me to look it up at wikipedia.

Harwammer
12-06-2012, 19:10
That FAQ is pretty weird though. It seems to be written from the perspective of an unmodified Ld test, which would make sense to use the highest Ld characteristic in the unit. When I first read that FAQ I was surprised by it but I immediately made the connection that you could use a high-ld characters in the same unit to allow wizards to Spirit Leech using the highest value in the unit (so yes, necromancers can use a vampire's Ld10 in the same unit). However, I've been reasonably convinced since then, after several discussions where I've argued that the unmodified Ld of a model IS the highest in the unit, that this isn't the intent of the FAQ, which really was clearly thinking about an unmodified Ld test and the ambiguous "your" doesn't really convince me that this is the same thing. "What is a model's unmodified LD", which really is the question we want to know the answer to. Instead the FAQ seems to be answering "what is a unit's unmodified LD". "What is your unmodified LD" is vague and it isn't clear which of those questions it is asking.

Overall we could really do with a clarification to that FAQ. Given that it starts with "when taking a Ld test" it is not terribly convincing that the individual model's Ld should suddenly be the highest in the unit and that's very doubtful that's really the intent of the spell either.

This is a very good answer regarding quite a grey area. I can't help but think the FAQ answer is in reference to how the BRB's note on leadership tests, "If a unit includes models with different Leadership values, always use the one with the highest Leadership" works in relation to a unit's tests against an unmodified leadership.