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Judochop
06-06-2012, 23:03
So player A has an HPA and everyone knows it has random movement. Player B has a fast calvery unit that can free reform. So what if the Fast cav move up to it exactly 1 inch away exactly parallel to it. This would technically make the HPA unable to turn at all and be forced to move straight forward the whole game correct? Reason being is when the HPA moves it could never pivot on the spot without getting within 1 inch of the fast cav unit, thus making it go only direclty forward. Looks like this would work to me as long as the fast cav were able to keep up and it didnt get killed by magic or shooting. What do you think?

theunwantedbeing
06-06-2012, 23:06
It works on units that don't move via Random movement special rules.

LiddellHart
06-06-2012, 23:24
It would work on me: I would pick up my stuff and head in a straight line to the door, never pivoting for one moment.

Agoz
07-06-2012, 00:05
It would work on me: I would pick up my stuff and head in a straight line to the door, never pivoting for one moment.

Ditto, it isn't a tactic, its a loophole.

NitrosOkay
07-06-2012, 00:27
It would work on me: I would pick up my stuff and head in a straight line to the door, never pivoting for one moment.

If you brought a single Hell pit maybe, but if you bring two or three you're asking for something like this.

Judochop
07-06-2012, 00:31
Well, rules are rules. I'll be using this tactic at my game store as I have no remorse for skaven. Just thought I would share with others, especially if they hate seeing HPA's on the table.

RanaldLoec
07-06-2012, 00:46
Please use it in context.

In a no holds barred tournament by all means fill your boots.

In a pick up "friendly" game only try it if your not too bothered about playing your opponent again or about gaining a reputation.

Lord Inquisitor
07-06-2012, 03:15
As theunwantedbeing pointed out in the first reply, it won't work against HPAs. As they're random movement, they're allowed to move within an inch when moving (or they'd never be able to charge anything!*), so the HPA will simply pivot into contact with your unit and close the door.

Against other units it can work to some degree. Particularly very long units like Bret cav buses can be vulnerable to being "pinned" but the utility is rare. Typically you'll require two units, but a couple of units of furies or harpies one on each side can really squirrel up such long units in certain specific circumstances.

*This isn't explicit in the rules but is implicit, unless you want to argue that random movement units can't charge anything, ever.

Judochop
07-06-2012, 09:04
They way I understand it is that if random move would bring you into contact with enemey then it counts as charging through normal charge rules. So if a unit is directly parallel to the flank of a HPA facing it and say just a little back what would end up happening is you would charge the flank of the HPA in to the front of said unit. Under normal charging rules you cant charge your flank into a unit? Correct? Sounds funky, I'll just have to talk with my local game group about this.

T10
07-06-2012, 11:06
Perhaps it would have been best if all single-model units with the Random Movement special rule used circular bases.

-T10

hazmiter
07-06-2012, 11:35
I for one will not use said tactic, unless forces to, it seems like it ties too much up in one place, and leaves you open to nasty stuff.
Bring out sword of rhuin and xbows......

Satan
07-06-2012, 12:00
Perhaps it would have been best if they just rewrote the Random Movement special rule.

-T10

I agree completely.

Memnos
07-06-2012, 12:38
Please read the random movement rule. "If a model comes in contact with the enemy, it counts as having charged."

So if he starts to turn and comes in contact with you, then he counts as charging.

However, this trick might work if you could stay one inch away from him and with his random roll manages to not make contact - Maybe by using some sort of fifth dimensional physics - Then he wouldn't be able to charge you.

However, if you were within his random movement distance, he hits you.

hazmiter
07-06-2012, 12:43
The pivot happens before the roll though.
Rule stipulation is 1 inch between you, and opponent, this goes for trying to charge "squeeze" warsphinxes through a 2" gap.......

Memnos
07-06-2012, 13:27
Doesn't matter when the pivot happens. It's a separate sentence. If someone is going to be ******* and pull a move like this, then I'm going strictly by the wording. In this case, a sentence that could have nothing to do with the previous sentence about rolling. In fact, depending on how ******* they got, I might accidentally tip over my model and then point out that he counts as charging whatever he accidentally touched. Or lay down a marker to show where the model is supposed to be on the table, then pick it up and randomly walk over and tap models on the opponents side and claim I charged them as per the rule.

hazmiter
07-06-2012, 13:36
I see your point memnos, and it is a below the belt cheap shot to use that tactic, I've done quad hydra at 4k points, that was nasty.

Sexiest_hero
07-06-2012, 15:12
Skaven have so many chaff and redirectors not to mention guns and direct damage, it would only work on the most beginner of players, IF it worked. Stick to flaming attacks to kill Aboms.

Memnos
07-06-2012, 15:16
The last time I played a 3 Abom list with my Beastmen, I killed 4 Abominations.

One got back up.

Throwing out massive damage to break monsters using any army isn't that hard. You don't have to resort to clearly shifty rules interpretations to kill them.

GodlessM
07-06-2012, 15:32
How on earth do people see this as a loophole? The 1" rule and reform/pivoting rules as well as random movement are all clearly laid out with no ambiguity and this is a clearly forseeable circumstance of those rules' combination. There is no amount of lawyering or explaining needed here so I fail to see how it is a loophole. I also find it amusing that people laying Aboms are complaining that there is a counter to them.

hamsterwheel
07-06-2012, 15:33
Interesting scenario. Unfortunately the HPA's forward arc is determined after it pivots or the random move rules wouldn't work at all since it tells you to measure the distance of the dice rolls(which is after the pivot) to determine if it meets its charge range. It can just turn a little bit, move forward half a inch and clip your fast cav, then you'll have to deal with the D6 impact hits which will probably cost you the combat.

SteelTitan
07-06-2012, 16:17
I just read through the Random Movement rules and I think a case can be made that the pivot is not part of the random movement which says that 'if it comes into contact, it is a charge'. You first pivot, THEN roll for how far the model moves randomly.

If so, the pivot cannot take you within 1" as it is not part of the random movement (a pivot is hardly random now is it :rolleyes:) and thus this tactic would indeed work on the HPA (or Steamtank :rolleyes:)

And I kinda agree with Judochop, I don't really feel sorry for Skaven.


EDIT: I actually asked the same question here in regards to the Doomwheel: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?339366-Two-questions-after-today-s-game-(Skaven-magic-and-pivoting-a-doomwheel)

Texhnolyze
07-06-2012, 16:58
Isnt the abom block in the same league as impossible charge block with eagles ?

Like this;

142430

Just an a$$y way of (ab)using the rules ?

Wesser
07-06-2012, 17:03
If so, the pivot cannot take you within 1" as it is not part of the random movement (a pivot is hardly random now is it :rolleyes:) and thus this tactic would indeed work on the HPA (or Steamtank :rolleyes:)


All of their movement is random movement. It's special rule, not a measure of how you actual move the model. It's not like you roll a scatter dice for its movement either.

Anyhow the rule seems clear. If the Abo using its normal move can get into contacty then it has charged. Since it has to get within 1' to charge it can simply make a turn and move into you. Since it doesnt even have to declare charges it therefor follows that it can also move within 1' inch of you at any time as long as it ends its move more than 1' away

Ergo this tactic won't work...no big loss anyway. Skavenslaves or giant rats would prolly take care of the fast cavalry before it became a problem

decker_cky
07-06-2012, 17:10
Isnt the abom block in the same league as impossible charge block with eagles ?

Like this;

142430

Just an a$$y way of (ab)using the rules ?

Wouldn't that rules situation just be dealt with by charging both units, forcing the eagles to wheel to the horde?

I'd put it more akin to the skirmish blocks on charges, where the skirmishing unit becomes impossible to charge because of tightening ranks moving it out of the charge possibility (needing more than a 90 degree wheel).

Texhnolyze
07-06-2012, 17:40
Wouldn't that rules situation just be dealt with by charging both units, forcing the eagles to wheel to the horde?

I'd put it more akin to the skirmish blocks on charges, where the skirmishing unit becomes impossible to charge because of tightening ranks moving it out of the charge possibility (needing more than a 90 degree wheel).

Nope it wouldn't, the unit has to charge the front arc of one of the eagles to make the charge legal, and they can't since the other eagle is blocking the way.

Tarian
07-06-2012, 17:42
Nope it wouldn't, the unit has to charge the front arc of one of the eagles to make the charge legal, and they can't since the other eagle is blocking the way.

Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2012, 18:13
Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

The unit is considered to be starting in the front arc, so has to charge that bit.
It's an unusual quirk of the charging rules.

Just think of it like trying to charge the flank of an enemy, despite starting directly infront of them.
You can see the flank, but you aren't allowed to charge it...even though you could likely reach the flank as well.

Texhnolyze
07-06-2012, 18:18
Why can't they just flank charge the Eagle...?

Because the majority of the units front rank is in the Eagles front arc. So they have to charge the front of the eagle, but there is no way that can be done...

GodlessM
07-06-2012, 18:21
Interesting scenario. Unfortunately the HPA's forward arc is determined after it pivots or the random move rules wouldn't work at all since it tells you to measure the distance of the dice rolls(which is after the pivot) to determine if it meets its charge range. It can just turn a little bit, move forward half a inch and clip your fast cav, then you'll have to deal with the D6 impact hits which will probably cost you the combat.

No this is wrong. It cannot pivot to within 1" of an enemy unit. Basic rules of Warhammer.

dutchwarlord
07-06-2012, 18:26
Is it not that you can't end your move within 1 inch of another unit?

At least that's how we're playing it. Seems to be more logically too.

Lord Inquisitor
07-06-2012, 18:31
There is no rule that prevents pivoting within 1", there is a rule that prevents movement within 1". There is no distinction between the two. The random movement rules don't allow you come within 1" explicitly, but it is implicit. There's no rationale that the pivot obeys the 1" rule but the move does not.

Abombs are annoying but this doesn't even work, unlike the stupid double eagle shenanigans.

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 19:27
There is no rule that prevents pivoting within 1", there is a rule that prevents movement within 1". There is no distinction between the two. The random movement rules don't allow you come within 1" explicitly, but it is implicit. There's no rationale that the pivot obeys the 1" rule but the move does not.

Abombs are annoying but this doesn't even work, unlike the stupid double eagle shenanigans.

This is one of the few times I'll have to disagree with you LI. As stupid as it sounds, the 1" rule only makes exceptions to charging (playing it any other way is technically a house rule, despite the fluff). Pivoting falls under the perview of this rule. The only pivots that don't are the so-called "virtual" pivots that you use in certain cases (such as fleeing) where it specifically tells you to ignore unit clipping and distances.

Further the Random Movement special rule is written in such a way (for better or worse) that the sequence of events is as follows:
1) Pivot
2) Roll Distance
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy unit
4a) If you would contact an enemy unit it now counts as a charge against that unit with no charge reaction possible
4b) If you would not contact an enemy unit you move straight forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short, as usual, of impassable terrain and friendly units)

Since a pivot *is* movement that step is restricted by the 1" rule so you can stop someone from pivoting by parking 1" to a flank. Then they are forced to do their random movement forward. You only check for the "charge" later in the sequence of events. You can't use the pivot to "charge" even if you did house rule the 1" rule on pivots. Although if you did implement that house rule it would make sense to house rule pivots causing a "charge" too.

That being said it is clearly a cheesy thing to do and I would frown on anyone doing it in a friendly setting, but it is perfectly in the rules so in any cutthroat environment, be prepared for it.

Page references for those wishing to follow along in the BRB: 1" Rule - page 13, Random Movement - page 74.

Edit: Forgot to add this, but there is even a reference in the FAQ that specifically mentions that pivoting on the spot counts as movement (in a question about Move or Fire).

dementian
07-06-2012, 19:32
Edit: Forgot to add this, but there is even a reference in the FAQ that specifically mentions that pivoting on the spot counts as movement (in a question about Move or Fire).

So pivoting on the spot counts as movement...and if my movement takes me into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging...

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 19:44
So pivoting on the spot counts as movement...and if my movement takes me into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging...

Not quite, saying that if your movement takes you into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging is a convienent summary, but is not quite accurate to the (poorly written) random movement rules. A correct summary is that if your forward movement would take you into base contact with an enemy it counts as charging. It sounds stupid but they make it pretty clear. You pivot, roll, then measure ahead to see if you would hit an enemy.

I'll say this again, pivot blocking is legal, but really cheesy and I would refuse to play anyone in a friendly environment who persisted in doing these kinds of tricks since it's exploiting the rules.

Wesser
07-06-2012, 22:35
The unit is considered to be starting in the front arc, so has to charge that bit.
It's an unusual quirk of the charging rules.

Just think of it like trying to charge the flank of an enemy, despite starting directly infront of them.
You can see the flank, but you aren't allowed to charge it...even though you could likely reach the flank as well.

A truth with modifications there

Had a situation where a chariot was in the flank of another unit. Unfortunately due to impassable terrain there was no room in the flank, not evn for clipping. The rules for closing door however meant that the unit in question had to wheel enough so that the chariot could charge its flank. In this case the unit woulld "accidentally" charge one eagle and then force both eagles to "close the door".

Closing the door and the "Unusual situations" bit nailed the impossible charge dead, at least for me.

Wesser
07-06-2012, 22:38
Oh and by the way. Random Movement isnt movement...its a compulsory movement which means that they're allowed to move within 1' of another unit even if not specifically charging.

Ask Goblin Fanatics if ya dont believe me

Lord Inquisitor
08-06-2012, 22:55
This is one of the few times I'll have to disagree with you LI. As stupid as it sounds, the 1" rule only makes exceptions to charging (playing it any other way is technically a house rule, despite the fluff). Pivoting falls under the perview of this rule. The only pivots that don't are the so-called "virtual" pivots that you use in certain cases (such as fleeing) where it specifically tells you to ignore unit clipping and distances.

Further the Random Movement special rule is written in such a way (for better or worse) that the sequence of events is as follows:
1) Pivot
2) Roll Distance
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy unit
4a) If you would contact an enemy unit it now counts as a charge against that unit with no charge reaction possible
4b) If you would not contact an enemy unit you move straight forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short, as usual, of impassable terrain and friendly units)
Your argument, therefore, is that the Random Movement gives (implicit) exception for the move after pivoting to ignore the 1" rule, but not before that? It is a reasonable argument.

Unfortunately the RM rules don't actually give any exception other than implicit as to which part of the move is excepted from the 1" rule.

AntaresCD
08-06-2012, 23:42
Your argument, therefore, is that the Random Movement gives (implicit) exception for the move after pivoting to ignore the 1" rule, but not before that? It is a reasonable argument.

Unfortunately the RM rules don't actually give any exception other than implicit as to which part of the move is excepted from the 1" rule.

Close. My argument is that the RM rules gives no exception at all for the 1" rule and that at step 4a your move has now become a charge, which does carry an explicit exception to the 1" rule.

Aéquitas
09-06-2012, 00:41
If my opponent would do this I would just end the game and give him the win he craves for so badly. I play this game to have a good time and people searching for ways to exploit the rules just ruins that. Surprised people can hate an army so much that they have to resort to stuff like this. But to each their own ofcourse :)

Same for the eagles thing btw. Reading the tactics forums here is not really making me happy haha

Lord Inquisitor
09-06-2012, 18:21
Close. My argument is that the RM rules gives no exception at all for the 1" rule and that at step 4a your move has now become a charge, which does carry an explicit exception to the 1" rule.

I see your argument. It seems pretty solid. I will give this a bit more thought.

Memnos
09-06-2012, 18:54
Complete sentences in the book:


When the model moves, first pivot about its centre to face the direction you wish to travel.

Note that it says "when" and not "before". This indicates that pivoting is part of the move.

This is important for later on.


if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges and using the distance rolled as its charge range.

So, as per the rules, this is what would happen with your abom-block.

You move exactly one inch away. The abom pivots and hits you. Then the abom rolls the dice to determine its movement. Then you would measure to see if the random movement would take it in to contact with the unit, then you would charge said unit.

However, later in the rule this is said:


if the random move brings the unit to within 1" of a friendly unit or impassable terrain, it stops immediately and cannot further move in the movement phase.

This doesn't say "unless the model would come in contact with the unit, in which case it counts as charging." And this does support your argument - sort of. I can't argue implication, since this flat out contradicts an earlier part of the rule, but i can point out that the word "forward" is never used at all. This implies one of two things:

1) If the model can make contact, it can get within an inch.

Or;

2) Models with random movement can never get in to base contact in their own phase.

This is a silly argument. We all know the writer's intention. If you want to argue the second point, feel free, but that doesn't depend on you being within an inch at all.

Unless you can point me to the word, "forward movement" at all in that rule.

SteelTitan
11-06-2012, 07:24
So, it would be ok for it to pivot through my model (within 1"??), than push it back a little, and have it 'charge' (move it in B2B)?

Lord Solar Plexus
11-06-2012, 10:24
This debate has been going on and off for some time, and I'm not really much wiser. After some consideration, it's probable that there is no cheese or cheating involved. After all, you can lead any other unit straight ahead as well by staying 1" to their side if that rule is considered to be important.

It *could* be argued that the 1" rule is just there for aesthetic reasons and not supposed to impact the game itself, and that it should be treated accordingly: "This rule is purely for clarity. It’s important to be able to tell at a glance where one unit stops and another begins" (p. 13).



There is no rule that prevents pivoting within 1", there is a rule that prevents movement within 1". There is no distinction between the two.


If there is no distinction between the two, they are one, and one cannot be different. If pivot = movement and no movement within 1", then no pivot within 1". Unless it is excepted, which random move is, so it raises the question of whether pivot is part of random movement.



Note that it says "when" and not "before". This indicates that pivoting is part of the move.


True. If the pivot is part of the random move, and the random move is not required to stop within 1" of an enemy unit, you could apparently come into contact with the enemy in this fashion.

On the other hand, this is not how it is usually treated. If the pivot is part of your random move, you would also need to deduct that distance from the roll. That is hardly important in this case but it's never done in practice. In fact, some players start their models facing sideways to gain a few inches.



This doesn't say "unless the model would come in contact with the unit, in which case it counts as charging." And this does support your argument - sort of. I can't argue implication, since this flat out contradicts an earlier part of the rule, but i can point out that the word "forward" is never used at all. This implies one of two things:


Again true, and again "sed contra": Why pivot? If an Abom or STank can charge through its flank or even rear - and that's what its doing whether it pivots a bit or not -, you could indeed just pick it up and place it in contact.

P. 16 says: "When you declare a charge, one or more of the models in your unit must be able to trace a LOS to the enemy unit, and the target must lie at least partially within the charging unit's front arc."

Clearly, the Random Mover does not declare a formal charge but it still needs to pivot to bring a potential target into its front arc. It cannot simply move or charge sideways, which would be consistent with a normal charge.

mykerush
13-06-2012, 02:16
It would work on me: I would pick up my stuff and head in a straight line to the door, never pivoting for one moment.
I agree. Grow up and play with a little dignity. You bring shame to the hobby if you resort to this.
PS-I am not a skaven player. As a matter of fact I play against skaven a lot and this isn't even an option for me.

Memnos
13-06-2012, 07:35
True. If the pivot is part of the random move, and the random move is not required to stop within 1" of an enemy unit, you could apparently come into contact with the enemy in this fashion.

On the other hand, this is not how it is usually treated. If the pivot is part of your random move, you would also need to deduct that distance from the roll. That is hardly important in this case but it's never done in practice. In fact, some players start their models facing sideways to gain a few inches.


Incorrect. The book is very clear on how individual models such as monsters and skirmishers pay to pivot. So while an Abomination doesn't pay to pivot, a unit of skirmishers such as Squigs cannot have any single model move more than its 'move'.



Again true, and again "sed contra": Why pivot? If an Abom or STank can charge through its flank or even rear - and that's what its doing whether it pivots a bit or not -, you could indeed just pick it up and place it in contact.

P. 16 says: "When you declare a charge, one or more of the models in your unit must be able to trace a LOS to the enemy unit, and the target must lie at least partially within the charging unit's front arc."

Clearly, the Random Mover does not declare a formal charge but it still needs to pivot to bring a potential target into its front arc. It cannot simply move or charge sideways, which would be consistent with a normal charge.

Because they don't need to declare a formal charge, they don't need LOS to the enemy. They simply move. If you would like, when you face me, I wouldn't even insist that you pivot and I would allow you to engage me by charging your bum at me. Of course, I'd get +2 combat resolution for engaging to your rear.

The rules are quite clear. Look at my previous post. The pivot is part of the movement. I have pointed out where it says so in the rule. That leaves only two options, which I've already gone over.

LiddellHart
13-06-2012, 08:43
I would allow you to engage me by charging your bum at me.

This made me chuckle in a childish, Beavis & Butthead kind of way.


Of course, I'd get +2 combat resolution for engaging to your rear.


Here I was laughing out loud :D

T10
13-06-2012, 08:56
How on earth do people see this as a loophole? The 1" rule and reform/pivoting rules as well as random movement are all clearly laid out with no ambiguity and this is a clearly forseeable circumstance of those rules' combination. There is no amount of lawyering or explaining needed here so I fail to see how it is a loophole. I also find it amusing that people laying Aboms are complaining that there is a counter to them.

How can this be seen to be a "loophole"? Let's see:

It allows a unit that to avoid combat with the abomination by moving CLOSER to the model instead of AWAY, by moving into an extremely EXPOSED position instead of using other units and terrain to move to a SAFE position. It is counter-intuitive in the extreme.

This works through a quirky combination of the 1" rule, the shape of the abomination's base, and the way the random movement rules fail to provide the necessary exceptions to the 1" rule. It's not a clearly advertised rules combo, but then again not all rules combinations are.

All in all it clearly qualifies as a rules loophole. Legal, but dumb.

Edit: I realise some people use the term "loophole" to describe grey areas of the rules that aren't properly covered by the rules. It seems to me that a loophole must be legal, and clearly so, otherwise it wouldn't provide a "means of escape", now would it?

Lord Solar Plexus
14-06-2012, 10:28
Incorrect. The book is very clear on how individual models such as monsters and skirmishers pay to pivot.


Then give me a page number or rule quote that specifies how much a random mover pays for its pivot? I have not seen any explicit mention of that. What impact do skirmishers have on the question of whether the pivot is part of the move of a random mover?



Because they don't need to declare a formal charge, they don't need LOS to the enemy. They simply move.


LoS has nothing to do with it and opens a different can of worms. I am talking about front arc. A random mover on a square base cannot move sideways. In order to move, it will have to pivot first, so I harbour doubts whether RM's "simply move". They pivot first, then roll, then move, that's apparently the sequence.

This pivot is not part of its 3d6 or whatever it rolls since it seemingly comes before the roll and does not count toward the sum. If this is found to be true, it is not part of the charge either.

Memnos
14-06-2012, 10:34
What difference does it make how much a random mover pays for its pivot?

Please give me a page number where it says a charger must pay movement for a charge. They have to move - But unless you can point out where it says they can't move 0 inches, then you're using what is called a bare assertion fallacy - That is, that a charger must move a minimum number of 'inches' for it to count as a charge. That's simply a falsity which you can't prove.

The pivot is part of the movement phase and is specifically mentioned as part of the move. I have shown where. Now, you must prove your bare assertion that there is a 'minimum charge distance' mentioned anywhere in the book.



Then give me a page number or rule quote that specifies how much a random mover pays for its pivot? I have not seen any explicit mention of that. What impact do skirmishers have on the question of whether the pivot is part of the move of a random mover?



LoS has nothing to do with it and opens a different can of worms. I am talking about front arc. A random mover on a square base cannot move sideways. In order to move, it will have to pivot first, so I harbour doubts whether RM's "simply move". They pivot first, then roll, then move, that's apparently the sequence.

This pivot is not part of its 3d6 or whatever it rolls since it seemingly comes before the roll and does not count toward the sum. If this is found to be true, it is not part of the charge either.

Burnt_85
14-06-2012, 11:02
I think a question in the FAQ while relating to a board edge not the 1" rule from a unit can aid with the understanding of how this works. I can only hope they extend the FAQ question to include it.

FAQ pg 5 Para 4
Q. Can a unit near or on the board edge pivot (or wheel) so that part of the unit (or it's base) is temporarily off the board?(p27)
A. Yes, though it is not allowed to end it's movement with part of the unit (or its base) off the board.

Until this FAQ is extended or a further answer is given I would see this as support to outrule the practice of bracketing as well as closing the door.

If anyone tried this against me I would stand me ground and if disputed use 'The Most Important Rule'.

I realise those that are fans of rule lawyering will agrue board edge is not 1" rule and as such has no impact on this discussion however I believe that is is a shallow understanding of the game and the intent the rules were written in.

So there will always be too groups here the RAW group and the those that choose to interpert the intent of the rule.

The main time this will happen (I hope) will be in the context of a tournament, as such I guess it will depend what camp your TO / judge is in. If this happened in a friendly game I would either ask they reconsider this tactic and offer them to a rematch if they have counted on using this strat. If they delined I would use 'The Most Important Rule' to sort it for that game then decline to play them further unless previously agreeing pre-game to rule out this practice.

I only play OnG and Dwarves anyway so I doubt this would occur often if at all, but this sort of abuse makes me sad and takes away from the 'spirit' of the game for me.

All points of view are valid, however they are still only points of view.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-06-2012, 11:49
What difference does it make how much a random mover pays for its pivot?


None. It does make a difference whether it pays any of its move allowance at all.

The 3d6 move can turn into a regular charge and is naturally excepted from the 1" rule.
The pivot is part of the 3d6.
-------------------------------
Ergo the pivot is excepted from the 1" rule.


The 3d6 move can turn into a regular charge and is naturally excepted from the 1" rule.
The pivot is not part of the 3d6.
-------------------------------
Ergo the pivot is not excepted from the 1" rule.

If the pivot does not count towards the 3d6, it seems to me that it is not part of it but in addition.

I'm not sure what all this stuff about minimum charge distances has to do with it, and I don't pretend to understand half of what you're saying. I don't think it's pertinent to this question.

The real problem lies in the assumption that a random mover can charge side- or rearways. I can find no provision for that. Since every charge starts as a move, that would also mean it could move sideways without pivoting. The RM rule however does specify the pivot as a means to change direction. This implies that there is a need to change direction, which contradicts the assumption that there is none and an RM can charge 360° without turning.


I think a question in the FAQ while relating to a board edge not the 1" rule from a unit can aid with the understanding of how this works. I can only hope they extend the FAQ question to include it.

As I have pointed out above, the same liberal approach applies to the 1" rule, which may freely be broken at any time and according to the for once clearly stated intent of the designers only serves aesthetic and "administrative" purposes.



All points of view are valid

I disagree.

Memnos
14-06-2012, 11:55
Lord Solar Plexus: The pivot is part of the 3d6 move. 0 inches is well within 3-18 inches that you would roll. Why, I could fit many, many 0 inch moves in to even the lowest roll.

Burnt_85
14-06-2012, 12:34
I feel misquoted LSP.



I disagree.


All points of view are valid, however they are still only points of view.

Clearly a point of view is a point of view regardless if you agree with it. A point of view isn't necessarily correct.
This is semantics I know I just don’t like my words twisted.

Lord Solar Plexus
14-06-2012, 13:30
Sorry Burnt but I only disagree with the part I've quoted. I've read enough stuff not to hesitate to call some PoV's invalid. That wasn't directed at you or Memnos or this thread, and should only be understood as a completely OT aside.


Lord Solar Plexus: The pivot is part of the 3d6 move. 0 inches is well within 3-18 inches that you would roll. Why, I could fit many, many 0 inch moves in to even the lowest roll.

In post #41 you said "The abom pivots and hits you. Then the abom rolls the dice to determine its movement." This sequence implies that the pivot comes before the roll of the dice and as such cannot be part of it but must stay outside in the rain.

In the same post you noted that the rule starts with "When the model moves...". Which is true, and which only serves to muddy the waters even more (not you, the wording). So the pivot is part of the move but the movement is only determined afterwards...I'm not so sure what to make of it. Calling the pivot a 0" move isn't very satifying. 0" is standing still, not moving.

Even then, that is only relevant if the pivot would bring the target into the front arc, as I'm still not convinced that RM's can charge sideways.

Jim
14-06-2012, 20:19
This happened to me at my games club this week...

Player moved a Great Eagle to the side of my Steam Tank 1" away so I could not pivot to hit it or any of the juicy targets behind me.

My choices were to chug directly forwards and then try and shoot it with steam gun and engineers repeater pistol so it didn't just move up to my side again in his turn.

At the time I felt ok as I thought it was a valid tactic allowable within the rules - but it is interesting to read some peoples reading of the rules to the contrary.

Jim

SteelTitan
16-06-2012, 14:49
Lord Solar Plexus: The pivot is part of the 3d6 move. 0 inches is well within 3-18 inches that you would roll. Why, I could fit many, many 0 inch moves in to even the lowest roll.

Dont the rules say:

1. pivot in direction you want to go
2. roll 3d6 to determine distance

?

I don't see how in that case the pivot is part of the 3d6 random move? Also, the word random implies 'no choice' and you clearly have a choice where to pivot it towards ;P

LiddellHart
16-06-2012, 20:49
Memnos explained it very clear in post 41 when he cited the rules literally.
Then the discussion trailed way off. Now let me have a go at it:

Op p. 74 there is a paragraph Random Movement. That paragraph desribes how Random Movement works.


When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish to travel.
Step 1: when the model commences its Random Movement it starts with a pivot.


Then, roll the dice shown in the model's profile.
Step 2: you roll dice


Finally, move the model directly forwards a number of inches ...
Step 3: you finish up with the actual moving.

0" pivots, skirmishers, minimum charge distances and board edges don't matter. Random Movement is neatly described as a three step proces.
No sloppy rulewriting or FAQ requirement: how much clearer do they have to spell this out?

Now, as the pivot is an integral part of Random Movement, let's look at the next subparagraph:

If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging

Pivot is part of the move, the pivot brings you into contact, thus you count as charging.

One can argue that move in this last quote is different from move in the first quote, well... good luck with that.

I'm just glad I will not have to pick up my stuff and leave on this one.
(BTW I don't play Skaven).

Iraf
16-06-2012, 21:05
Well laid out Liddle. The only problem I see is how the Abom will complete its charge. The rules are very clear on charges, you only get one 90* wheel during the charge.

Not only that, but even if the Abom can charge, it's impossible to make contact with the facing required. And if you can't make contact with the proper front/flank/rear then it's deemed a failed charge.

Beastlord
16-06-2012, 22:03
That eagle thing is stupid - the unit would obviously just charge the flanks. Some people need to apply a bit of common sense to their games.... :rolleyes:

Valaraukar
16-06-2012, 22:55
Well laid out Liddle. The only problem I see is how the Abom will complete its charge. The rules are very clear on charges, you only get one 90* wheel during the charge.

Not only that, but even if the Abom can charge, it's impossible to make contact with the facing required. And if you can't make contact with the proper front/flank/rear then it's deemed a failed charge.

However a model with random movement does not make a normal charge, it makes a random move (pivot, roll, move) and if this brings it into contact it counts as a charge but is not subject to the normal restrictions.

Iraf
17-06-2012, 00:54
However a model with random movement does not make a normal charge, it makes a random move (pivot, roll, move) and if this brings it into contact it counts as a charge but is not subject to the normal restrictions.

Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

HurrDurr
17-06-2012, 02:45
@ Beastlord, Yeah..... except no, because Sigmar forbids it.

Warning, strongly expressed opinion below:

This thread has degraded to lawyering v lawyering. Just because someone doesn't like the 1 inch rule being used to block a RM units movement, now the 1 inch rule is just a "polite practice" and not a rule. And units with RM are now capable of spinning in place to charge. It's just seeing who can be more abusive to "put the other guy in their place".

Back semi-ontopic if this is an underhanded tactic than so is redirecting, no discussion aloud. There is no way the rules intended for units to be suicidal(except for the crazy suicidal ones). And as silly as it looks for fast cav to force a tank not to turn, it's just as bad for a 5000 point unit of black orcs to be turned 45 degrees because of a 50 point eagle as far as realism goes. Therefore anybody who claims one is abusive but the other isn't is just picking favorites. Personally I find things like deploying the RM models sideways so they can pivot for the free inches to be a refreshing extra bit of depth to the game. How much less depth would this game have if redirecting, small deployment drops to out-deply and anything that wasn't "intended" was removed from the game.

I think I look at this through the same light Godless expressed earlier, if people wanted to talk about whether or not this "legal" move is an exploit/overpowered and should be banned or comped is one thing, but creating pivot charges out of spite is just as bad. It's like the cannon line of sight versus arc of vision shenanigans all over again. /endrant

I think the direction this thread should be going in is deciding whether or not this situation meets the standards that the two unchargable eagles picture meets in terms of abusive play vs game meta-mechanics, because I think we can all agree that's insanely abusive. The flaws in trying to argue a situation like this are obvious, GW never accounted for this and there is literally 0 content in the book regarding it(this thread wouldn't exist if they did), that or bad wording in a book that relies on explicitly stated rules leaves this open to interpretation. Either way the answers aren't in the book, it just gets close sometimes. It does seem fair that a unit with a 360 degree charge arc have a counter balance, saying the chance it rolls low is kind of moot when you think about the chance it rolls high. (It is slower on average though compared to 5 + 2d6 so idk)

LiddellHart
17-06-2012, 10:58
This thread has degraded to lawyering v lawyering. Just because someone doesn't like the 1 inch rule being used to block a RM units movement, now the 1 inch rule is just a "polite practice" and not a rule. And units with RM are now capable of spinning in place to charge. It's just seeing who can be more abusive to "put the other guy in their place".

Have you read the posts above? Or is this deliberate hyperbole to ridicule the discussion?
Welcome to the rules subforum where people like to discuss rules in depth.


Back semi-ontopic if this is an underhanded tactic than so is redirecting, no discussion aloud.

Well let me continue whispering: redirecting is a basic game mechanic, which rules are undisputed. In this thread were trying to find out whether the rules support "cornering" or not. That's the big difference.
I admit my initial response was directed at the underhandedness of this "tactic", but meanwhile a serious discussion has evolved, deserving comments with arguments.



it's just as bad for a 5000 point unit of black orcs to be turned 45 degrees because of a 50 point eagle as far as realism goes.

A 5000 point unit of black orcs shouldn't complain about being outmanoeuvred. ;)



I think the direction this thread should be going in is deciding whether or not this situation meets the standards that the two unchargable eagles picture meets in terms of abusive play vs game meta-mechanics, because I think we can all agree that's insanely abusive.

That would certainly make an interesting discussion, and I agree on the abusive-part wholeheartedly. Maybe you could start a thread with this subject somewhere?

LiddellHart
17-06-2012, 11:12
Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

Hmm, interesting point. Upon rereading that passage it seems a Random Mover can fail a charge if it can't properly reach the appropriate facing. That's a good point.
However, I don't think this applies to a bump during the pivot. You do not aim for a facing, then to discover whether you can reach it.
Instead the enemy is standing very close, and you hit them where you hit them. Just close the door after first contact. Often you will hit the right facing or a corner. In the latter situation you can close the door against the right facing anyway.

I admit rules are not clear on this one, but I also imagine the situation where this doesn't work out to be very rare.

Valaraukar
17-06-2012, 12:32
Wrong, pg 74 "if the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges..."

I disagree although am not arrogant enough to assume my interpretation MUST be correct and therefore label you as 'wrong' :rolleyes: this statement is not specific enough and could refer to any part or parts of the charging mechanics, it clearly does not include all of them as the move has already been made at this time therefore the 90 degree pivot cannot be a part of it for starters. Furthermore your objection seems to be around the closing of the door and making contact with the correct facing, however contact will be made with the corner of the unit which is an intrinsic part of both front and flank facings of the enemy and therefore imo meets the requirement of making contact with the front facing in which it starts. As to the closing of the door this is NOT a requirement as there is a specific exception dealing with where this is not possible and in such cases the enemy closes the door instead.

As I see it the random movement model pivots, if it has a small base such as a spawn this should be possible without making contact and can then move into contact forward, if it has a large base such as a steam tank or abomination this pivot moves it into contact with the corner and thus as above correct facing of the enemy and as per the rules for random movement counts as a charge which must now upon making contact follow the remainder of the normal charge rules that being closing of the door and maximising etc. which in this case is impossible for the charging unit and thus the enemy closes the door instead. Their is no specific stipulation I have found that this must be against eh charging units front or original facing, thoughts?

Valaraukar
17-06-2012, 12:34
<snip> Often you will hit the right facing or a corner. In the latter situation you can close the door against the right facing anyway.

I admit rules are not clear on this one, but I also imagine the situation where this doesn't work out to be very rare.

Not quite closing the door is described as a wheel and a wheel can only be made forward around one of a units front corners, which makes this impossible but I don't see that as a problem as there are rules to cover this namely the enemy closing the door where this is impossible for the charging unit as outlined above.

Ponge
17-06-2012, 13:39
Situations and discussions like these is what keeps me away from the WHFB tournament scene.

SteelTitan
17-06-2012, 15:10
I don't know if that makes sense. I can imagine that many regular tournament players know how this situation is called by referees.

The only problem I see is that if one player thinks this is allowed and the other doesn't. One player moves up to block, the other charges regardless...even if the referee calls it in favour of the first, he just lost his blocker...can't really go back an entire turn.

AntaresCD
18-06-2012, 17:51
I've stayed out of this one for a while to see where it goes, but there seems to be some selective quoting and reading going on, so I'm going to throw in again.

The relevant paragraphs for this discussion are the second and third ones so I'll go through those.

Second paragraph: "Models with Random Movement cannot declare charges, and are always moved in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase. When the model moves, first pivot it about its centre to face the direction in which you wish to travel. Then, roll the dice shown in the model's profile. Finally, move the model directly forwards a number of inches equal to the total rolled by the dice. No other pivots can be made."

So what does this paragraph say?
1) Models with RM cannot declare charges and move in the Compulsory Moves sub-phase (given, and not under discussion).
2) To move a model with RM you first pivot in the direction you wish to travel.
3) After you pivot you roll the dice to determine how far they go.
4) Then you move directly forward that many inches (emphasis on directly forward since it disallows other pivots).

So the process of making a Random Move is now established. It a 3 step process: pivot, roll, and then move forward.

Third paragraph: "There's a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging, and this is resolved using the normal rules for charging and using the distance rolled as the charge range. Charge reactions cannot be declared against enemies with the Random Movement special rule - the enemy find it impossible to recognize the danger unit it is far too late!"

So what does this paragraph say?
1) A random move might bring you into contact with an enemy so before you move you need to measure the distance to check for this.
2) If said measuring shows you would contact an enemy then this movement now counts as a charge and is resolved as a normal charge and the random movement roll counts as the rolled charge range.
3) No charge reactions can be taken against such a charge (given, not under discussion).

So here is where we get how a unit with RM gets to charge something. If your movement would bring you into contact then it's a charge. So I just pivot into that annoying eagle and it's a charge right? End of story! Sorry, but not quite. Let's look at that third paragraph again (keeping in the parts that people seem to be leaving out):

"There's a chance that the model's peculiar movement will cause it to come into contact with an enemy, so measure the distance in a straight line before the model is moved. If the move is found to take the unit into contact with an enemy, then it counts as charging..."

Please note the underlined portion. It tells you to measure the distance before the model is moved. Let's review the process for a RM:
1) Pivot.
2) Roll.
3) Move forward.

Where in that process is the distance you move known? Only from step 2 and forward. There is nothing to measure prior to the pivot (i.e. before step 1). There is nothing to measure after the pivot but bfore the dice are rolled (i.e. between steps 1 and 2). There is something to measure after you actually roll but before you move (i.e. between steps 2 and 3). There is technically something to measure after you move (i.e. after step 3) but that would violate the rest of the sentence since you must measure before you move.

This makes it abundantly clear that the measuring happens after you roll which means the pivot is already done. The pivot is not part of the potential charge and therefore cannot violate the 1" rule.

To make it simpler you can insert this into the RM movement process (as we have done prior) and have this clear set of steps:
1) Pivot.
2) Roll.
3) Measure ahead to see if you would contact an enemy.
4a) If you would contact an enemy then the RM has now become a charge with no charge reaction allowed.
4b) If you would not contact an enemy then just move forward the rolled distance (stopping 1" short of friendly units and impassible terrain).

While this has been pointed out by a number of people, including myself, it seems people forget that while yes the word "move" as used in the third paragraph is ambiguous, you can figure out exactly where to place that measurement which then clarifies that the move in that context is referring to the forward movement after the pivot.

I will say again that this is a bit cheesy, but it is legal. Personally, I frown on it in a friendly enviornment, but that's up to your local gaming environment.

If you can show how the ever important sentence regarding the measurement can be logically taken to mean measuring before you roll or how the roll is to happen before the pivot, I'm all ears. If you can't, then I find it difficult to see how you can read the process for RM as anything other than what is outlined above.

T10
18-06-2012, 19:05
Hmm, interesting point. Upon rereading that passage it seems a Random Mover can fail a charge if it can't properly reach the appropriate facing. .
Yes, if the move is sufficient to bring the abomination into contact with an enemy (with a straight-ahead-move) then it must move into contact as a normal model would: a single wheel to maximise the number of models fighting, must contact appropriate side, free wheel to close the door.

Bear in mind that getting the abomination into corner contact with a single model may be sufficient, and if the abomination is unable to close the door the target unit is allowed to do so.

Iraf
18-06-2012, 22:21
I disagree although am not arrogant enough to assume my interpretation MUST be correct and therefore label you as 'wrong' :rolleyes: this statement is not specific enough and could refer to any part or parts of the charging mechanics, it clearly does not include all of them as the move has already been made at this time therefore the 90 degree pivot cannot be a part of it for starters. Furthermore your objection seems to be around the closing of the door and making contact with the correct facing, however contact will be made with the corner of the unit which is an intrinsic part of both front and flank facings of the enemy and therefore imo meets the requirement of making contact with the front facing in which it starts. As to the closing of the door this is NOT a requirement as there is a specific exception dealing with where this is not possible and in such cases the enemy closes the door instead.

As I see it the random movement model pivots, if it has a small base such as a spawn this should be possible without making contact and can then move into contact forward, if it has a large base such as a steam tank or abomination this pivot moves it into contact with the corner and thus as above correct facing of the enemy and as per the rules for random movement counts as a charge which must now upon making contact follow the remainder of the normal charge rules that being closing of the door and maximising etc. which in this case is impossible for the charging unit and thus the enemy closes the door instead. Their is no specific stipulation I have found that this must be against eh charging units front or original facing, thoughts?

It has nothing to do with arrogance. You specifically said that it is not subject to the normal restriction, and the sentence specifically says "and this is resolved using the normal rules for charges."

Bodysnatcher
19-06-2012, 20:19
That eagle thing is stupid - the unit would obviously just charge the flanks. Some people need to apply a bit of common sense to their games.... :rolleyes:

To me the eagle one looks like you'd just move into the corner and the eagle would swing in to the charging unit. But then some claim that's 'not hitting the facing' or whatever.

HurrDurr
20-06-2012, 04:53
Yes, if the move is sufficient to bring the abomination into contact with an enemy (with a straight-ahead-move) then it must move into contact as a normal model would: a single wheel to maximise the number of models fighting, must contact appropriate side, free wheel to close the door.

Bear in mind that getting the abomination into corner contact with a single model may be sufficient, and if the abomination is unable to close the door the target unit is allowed to do so.

Can closing the door be used when a charging unit makes contact and cant close the door because its entire wheel isnt enough? thats sort of like finishing the charge for the enemy, the way i understood the charged unit closing the door was when there were obstructions in the way like terrain.