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Ceodoc
06-06-2012, 23:30
Subject: Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind (Signature Spell)


My question is: What is a -normal- move, or put another way, what is an abnormal move and thereby requiring the wording of the spell to say [...] can immediately make a NORMAL move as if it [.....] instead of [....] can immediately make a move as if it [....] ?


My hope is that it is a error by Cupcake to cross reference when he used the word normal as he wanted it to exclude a charge, my fear is that it is a very restricting spell that has no, wheels, reforms except move directly forward.


---------------------------------
Moving Your Units Page 13
"A unit can move straight forward any distance up to its Movement value (M) in inches.


In Warhammer, a basic move for any model, and therefore any unit of models, is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic.
[.......]
Units are cumbersome, and find it hard to change direction. Models (and units) MUST MOVE FORWARD IN A STRAIGHT LINE, unless performing a maneuver, which we'll discuss in a moment."


Maneuvers Page 14
"There are two specific maneuvers that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform.


As with a normal move, a unit cannot carry out a maneuver if doing so would take it to within 1" of another unit.


Also, none of the models in the unit may move more than twice their Movement rate as a result of a maneuver (i.e. Men with Move 4 can move up to 8")."


Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind (Signature Spell)
"Khsar's Incantation of the Desert Wind is an augment spell that targets all unengaged friendly Nehekharan Undead units within 12". The targets can immediately make a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase. [...] "


Remaining Moves Page 26
-Moving your Units-
"During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally or compulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform manoeuvres as described on page 13.


The player picks one of his units and moves it a distance up to the unit's Move value (M) in inches. Once the chosen unit has finished its movement, the player can pick and move another unit, unitl all the eligible units the player wishes to move have done so."


-----------------------------------------------


Actually the more I read it, the more I believe it is a move from page 13, ie straight or "normal" and not a manoeuvre from page 14.


Also note the seperation of normal & maneuvre in:


Maneuvers Page 14
"There are two specific maneuvers that enable a unit to change direction or rearrange its ranks: wheel and reform.


As with a normal move, a unit cannot carry out a maneuvre[....]


Doc

NitrosOkay
07-06-2012, 01:10
A normal move is moving up to your movement value in inches directly forward. The spell doesn't allow you to maneuver.

Maoriboy007
07-06-2012, 03:12
Ah yes,Suckiest concept for a spell ever, require a spell to allow an army to do what every other army gets to do for free, and do it badly :)

bigbear bailey
07-06-2012, 08:15
I think it's really good considering it can heal your whole army (that being it's main use). Remember that single model units and horse archers can go anywhere.

Ceodoc
07-06-2012, 09:23
I think it's really good considering it can heal your whole army (that being it's main use). Remember that single model units and horse archers can go anywhere.

As in a a free wheel or pivot for single units and a free swift reform for horse archers?

Which can both be added to the move of Khsar's Desert Wind?

Doc

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 18:10
They say a "normal move" to make it clear it follows all the rules as a move in the movement phase, i.e. a normal move. In your specific instance it mentions a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase, which means you "pretend" that target unit(s) are currently in the Remaining Moves sub-phase t ofigure out what they can do. This means they can make any move choice that would be legal in that sub-phase, namely: forward movement of up to your Move value in inches (which does allow the wheel maneuver, as normal), a reform, a swift reform (if you have a musician), a march (which iirc isn't allowed for TK), movement backwards or sideways (one or the other) at half Move value (round up) with no maneuvers allowed. Note that charging is not a valid option (that's a different sub-phase in the Movement Phase of a turn)

This valid moves in that sub-phase are all on page 26.

Ceodoc
08-06-2012, 09:51
They say a "normal move" to make it clear it follows all the rules as a move in the movement phase, i.e. a normal move. In your specific instance it mentions a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase, which means you "pretend" that target unit(s) are currently in the Remaining Moves sub-phase t ofigure out what they can do. This means they can make any move choice that would be legal in that sub-phase, namely: forward movement of up to your Move value in inches (which does allow the wheel maneuver, as normal), a reform, a swift reform (if you have a musician), a march (which iirc isn't allowed for TK), movement backwards or sideways (one or the other) at half Move value (round up) with no maneuvers allowed. Note that charging is not a valid option (that's a different sub-phase in the Movement Phase of a turn)

This valid moves in that sub-phase are all on page 26.

I think you have many contradictions here.

That reference will take you from page 26 to page 13 and then manouevres are discussed on the next page.
Also the langauge of "normal" & "basic" are key to this ambiguity, because the BRB dances between the use of them.
On page 14 the paragraph about reforms descibes them as "complicated" one can suppose not "normal" or not "basic".

I think you can clearly make an arguement for not allowing this spell to give you a manouevre, therefore a wheel, reform or anything other than a move forward, backward or sideways, my instinct is that Cruddace did not intend this and used the word "normal" because he did not want a charge.
It clearly needs a FAQ as it effects a army which has the severest movement restrictions already.

Doc

AntaresCD
08-06-2012, 17:13
I think you have many contradictions here.

That reference will take you from page 26 to page 13 and then manouevres are discussed on the next page.
Also the langauge of "normal" & "basic" are key to this ambiguity, because the BRB dances between the use of them.
On page 14 the paragraph about reforms descibes them as "complicated" one can suppose not "normal" or not "basic".

I think you can clearly make an arguement for not allowing this spell to give you a manouevre, therefore a wheel, reform or anything other than a move forward, backward or sideways, my instinct is that Cruddace did not intend this and used the word "normal" because he did not want a charge.
It clearly needs a FAQ as it effects a army which has the severest movement restrictions already.

Doc

The arguement you present is splitting hairs. Even your "instinct" tells you this. Normally I don't bother in those cases, but I'm bored so I'll bite.

First off, you're getting caught up in a fallacy that is common for some in reading the rulebook, namely that every word is significant and defines a special rule of sorts. If a term isn't capitalized, it's usually not a specific term that refers to a specific rule. That being said, yes they use the adjectives "normal," "basic," and "complicated," as you state. Let's look at the full context (contect matters in English!).

"...a basic move for any model, and therefore any unit of models, is to move forward a number of inches up to their Movement characteristic." (page 13) Note that it is not "Basic Move", it is "basic move," as in this is the most fundamental move possible, which it is.

"As with a normal move, a unit cannot carry out a manoevre if doing so would take it within 1" of another unit." (page 14) Note again that it is not "Normal Move," it is "normal move," as in references the most common move, as in referencing moving forward. In context it's saying this same sentence here: Wheeling and Reforming do not allow you to come within 1" of another unit just in the same way you cannot do so when you move directly forward. That's it, there is no special magic to referring to it as a "normal move," because frankly, moving forward is the most basic and standard move, as has been established.

"A reform is a complicated manoevre and ordinarily prevents the unit from moving any further that turn..." (page 14, underline mine) This one is simple. Meet a common example of a rule sentence that is part fluff (the underlined part) and part rule (the rest of the sentence). Explaining that a reform is complicated is fact, such a thing would be and is, but the part that is actually the rule is that you can't move or shoot. The explanation that it is complicated is an explaination for the existance of the rule. Further, just to throw it in, you'll notice it's "complicated manoevre," not "Complicated Manoevre" or even "Complicated Move."

That being established let's look at the relevent spell sentence: "...a normal move as if it were the Remaining Moves sub-phase." Ok so again we have "normal move" not "Normal Move." So what is a "normal move?" Well in this context we want a "normal move," i.e. the standard move, of the Remain Moves sub-phase. Note that the sub-phase is capitalized. The Remaining Moves sup-phase is a specific, defined ruleset. A "normal move" in that phase, is any of the things I listed prior. There is no other move legal, normally, in that sub-phase.

As far as preventing charges goes, that is specifically why it mentions the Remaining Moves sub-phase! Charges are not allowed then, you've already missed the sub-phase that allows them. This is a pattern maintained throughout the rulebook and all the 8th edition army books. Further, there is also an established pattern of allowing you to do something out of sequence "as though it where phase/sub-phase X."

The only inherent contradiction is found by taking terms out of context and/or apply rule weight to scattered adjectives in the rules explainations.

Ceodoc
08-06-2012, 21:35
I don't want to dwell on my problem with them using normal, basic or complicated.

I am new to the game, so have so much to learn.
My debate centres around these givens:

# The spell calls for you to make a normal move.
# This normal move is to be conducted in the remaining moves sub-phase.
# The sub-phase entry directs you to page 13 where you find a thorough explanation of a normal move, being that a move forward, backward or sideways.
# This same paragraph brings to your attention other moves you could make, which are explained in a different section, pg. 14, called manouevres, not you might note, moves.

It is not simply a matter of context, or indeed english comprehension, I would go as far as to say, that your statement of not every word is significant, or defines a rule, is counter intuitive to the whole notion of a "rulebook".
Using your laissez faire view of how GW wrote their rule book, I wonder why a huge amount of time and effort is spent on FAQ forums, Errata requests, etc. Because you have solved this riddle for me by ignoring what appears to me as rules.

But don't get me wrong, I am a Tomb Kings player, I want my reform and wheel, but when this was pointed out to me, I read, re read these sections and agreed, that if not the intent, then a clear mistake was made writing these few paragraphs, that is what I believe and why I have started this thread.
I would ask you to direct me to the section that mentions this:

First off, you're getting caught up in a fallacy that is common for some in reading the rulebook, namely that every word is significant and defines a special rule of sorts. If a term isn't capitalized, it's usually not a specific term that refers to a specific rule. That being said, yes they use the adjectives "normal," "basic," and "complicated," as you state. Let's look at the full context (contect matters in English!).

Please do not consider me trolling you, I mean no disrespect or agitation.
I just want clarity on this spell.

Cheers
Doc

Ceodoc
08-06-2012, 22:14
This was bought to my attention:
Pg 506
Summary
Movement

Normal move= Movement characteristic

Hmmm

AntaresCD
08-06-2012, 22:38
# The spell calls for you to make a normal move.
# This normal move is to be conducted in the remaining moves sub-phase.

This is the first confusion. It's not a normal move and then treat it as though you're in that sub-phase. It's a normal move as if it were the Remain Moves sub-phase. It's a subtle distinction, but an important one. To rephrase it: Make a move that is legal as though the target(s) are currently in the Remaining Moves sub-phase (as opposed to the current Magic Phase).

So then you have to see what moves are legal in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. This is defined on page 26 of the BRB:

"During the Remaining Moves sub-phase, units that did not charge, flee, rally, or cumpulsorily move this Movement phase, and which are not engaged in combat, can now move and perform manoevers as described on page 13."

If we stopped there, then the things you are allowed to do are only what are described there. What is listed there is basic, forward movement, wheels, reforms, and swift reforms. Following your strict interpretation you wouldn't even be able to move backwards, sideways, march, pivot a lone character, etc. Fortunately, the description of the legal moves continues. It describes all of the other things I mentioned. The full list of what you can do in this phase is clear: move forward (including wheeling), move backwards, move sideways, (swift) reform, and march. These are the things that are "normally" allowed. Do you see what I'm getting at? The page 13 reference is to describe the basic forward move and the two manouevres, but that is not all that's allowed. It explicitly expands that list. It references back so it doesn't need to duplicate the information. The information is listed where it is since it is relevant to charging which the further things expanded on in this sub-phase aren't. The rulebook does this often, where they try to introduce things that are relevant to the things that follow and expand them as further things become relevant.


# The sub-phase entry directs you to page 13 where you find a thorough explanation of a normal move, being that a move forward, backward or sideways.
# This same paragraph brings to your attention other moves you could make, which are explained in a different section, pg. 14, called manouevres, not you might note, moves.

This is your second confusion, which I touched on above somewhat. The paragraph in the Remaining Moves sub-phase (which I quoted above) is only the first paragraph of many describing how you move your units being as it is the "Moving You Units" section. Further a maneuver is something you may elect to do as part of your move (for wheels) or in place of it in the case of a reform. I don't understand why you're still trying to split these hairs. If you want the full definition train then here:

-Movement chapter, Moving Your Units section first defines the most basic move as moving forward up to a number of inches equal to your Movement characteristic. Then it clarifies that you have to manoevre to do anything other than moving in a straight line.
-The 1" Rule is defined.
-Then in the Manoeuvres section they remind you that manouevres are restricted by the 1" rule too and the double Movement restriction.
-A Wheel is now defined. Within the definition it states how a wheel is measured in the Remaining Moves sub-phase. It also makes it clear that you may mix as much forward movement and wheeling as you want, as long as you stay within your Movement characteristic. It also clearly states that you may not wheel backwards.
-Then reforms are defined. The restriction that you may not move further nor shoot (excepting swift reforms and other coming special rules).
-The Movement Phase Sequence is now laid out.
<snipping out the sub-phases before Remaining Moves sub-phase>
-Remaining Moves sub-phase is now being defined. It first gives a restriction on who cannot act in this phase. It then lists that everyone else can move and perform manouevrs as described prior. It then gives you further things that are allowable, namely backward movement, sideways movement, and marching.
<things go on from there but none of it is relevant>

Nowhere in that is the term "normal move" defined as you think it is. It does reference "normal move," as you noted on page 14. As I explained that is used in its literal, English meaning as in this is what is typical.

I just keeps coming back to that, but you take it as a "laissez faire" approach to reading the book, which is ironic because I'm very strict on rules interpretations. The correct statement is that GW wrote their rules in a very "laissez faire" fashion with inconsitent and confusing wording and numerous contradictions and gray areas. Further, they interspersed fluff in numerous places in fashions that are confusing.

As far as:

I would ask you to direct me to the section that mentions this
That's simple; you won't find it. It's a statement born from reading the rulebook that is carried by most people who do so. It's easily observable; you have non-rules (i.e. fluff), usually in the form of explainations of the rationale interspersed all through the definition of rules. Granted going the full bore only rules and nothing else would make a horrible read, but they did not do a good job with the fluff in many places which can confuse people.

I'm not going to convince you, clearly, so I leave you with the common-sense rationale and you can do with it what you will:

What moves are normally allowed in the Remaining Moves sub-phase? That's is what you are allowed to do by the spell.

If you believe that means you can only move forward, no one will stop you since that is merely a subset of the commonly understood leagal moves.

Bear in mind that if you do persist in taking the stance of making such readings as your very weak and suspect definition of a "normal move" based on the loose reference on page 14, you should follow through this rationale to it's logical conclusion across the whole rulebook. Trust me, if you do this you will find a lot of contradictions in the first 50 pages alone. Such a result is usually a good warning sign that you are reading the subject matter incorrectly.

Ceodoc
09-06-2012, 12:04
Antares
Thank you for taking the time to make these posts.
Along with that pg 506 movement summary you have made me change my mind.
I still believe there is ambiguity though, but as you put so well in your retort, it is GW who have a lassaiez faire attitude, not your interpretation of the rules.

With a little more thought I should have concluded this myself.

In summary:
I will use the page 506 reference to what a normal move is and them combine that with everything else is avaiable in the remaining moves sub-phase.
Does that sound like a good way to address my group to win this important argument?
If I did want to split hairs with you, I could say, pointing me to the pg 506 summary would have achieved quicker results, it really nulifies my whole argument.

Thank you again

Doc

Ceodoc
09-06-2012, 12:18
ps

I chuckled at your: a lot

:)

AntaresCD
11-06-2012, 16:35
You're welcome and yes, that would work with most people.