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Yodhrin
02-05-2006, 17:10
Hey hey.

Im considering starting a Fantasy army so I can become better aquainted with the rules, in preperation for trying to get work with GW.

Im after something fairly small, which can be built and painted quickly and expanded to a larger and more diverse force at a later stage. My first thought was a cavalry-heavy Empire army themed on the Crusades, but I have a couple of questions as I dont yet own the books.

Empire Knights are Core choices, correct?

Is there a way for Empire to take Ballistae/spear throwers/catapults or other war machines which are similar to the siege weapons used during the time period of the Crusades(Dogs of War is an acceptable way to do so), or are they stuck with blackpowder war machines?

How effective would a force largely consisting of mounted Knights, Crossbowmen and maybe some Greatswords or Spearmen/war machines be in larger games(ie, after Ive expended the basic force while keeping within the Crusader theme)?

Also, should I get started now or wait for the new edition of Fantasy in the Autumn? I may have to put off applying for GW as my situation has changed recently, so that is a possibility if it isnt worthwhile to get into the game so close to a new version. Finally, if anyone has recommendations for other small, heavy-hitting forces which are easy to paint, feel free to make them, Im open to other options.

Thanks.

Lady's Champion
02-05-2006, 17:27
Yes, they are core- and no they can't! take these weapons.
Could be quite effective
Wait.

MarcoPollo
02-05-2006, 17:40
I think that is important to wait. Find out what army your GW doesn't have much of. Choose that and paint it up. If you will be employed by them, having an army that they don't have will help your cause.

Don't worry too much about getting an army straight away. Usually, GW will offer employee discounts on store product. So wait till you are hired to invest in alot of "Toys". Besides, when you work there, you can swap and trade alot of product when you start to accumulate more.

Yodhrin
02-05-2006, 17:52
I think that is important to wait. Find out what army your GW doesn't have much of. Choose that and paint it up. If you will be employed by them, having an army that they don't have will help your cause.

Don't worry too much about getting an army straight away. Usually, GW will offer employee discounts on store product. So wait till you are hired to invest in alot of "Toys". Besides, when you work there, you can swap and trade alot of product when you start to accumulate more.

Unfortunatly, I have no idea what store I will be working at, as when I do go for the job I will likely have to move down to England somewhere. I need to get an army before I apply for the job to learn the rules properly, even if it's just a small one, as Ive not played since fourth edition, and I must know the rules for all three core systems or it could seriously affect my chances at the interview.

That's why I liked my Crusader Knight idea; I can start with a small force of heavy cavalry and then, when I get the job(they dont have a choice, Im going to keep showing up to interviews until Im hired :p), I can bulk it out with foot slogging infantry and the odd warmachine. Seeing as they cant take actual Crusader-ish war machines, Ill just have to use converted ones for Counts As cannons or mortars.

NakedFisherman
02-05-2006, 18:07
Why not just do a normal Empire army?

The army you're planning isn't from the Empire -- it's from Bretonnia.

Briscoe
02-05-2006, 18:47
It seems as though Bretonnians would be a lot easier to accomplish this with. The trebuchet is fairly similar to crusader-age weapons and you have plenty of knights and peasants if you want them.

The knight models themselves are quite easy to paint with a crusader theme, just put a big cross on any shield shaped item.

Yodhrin
02-05-2006, 19:13
Bretonnians bear no resemblance to Crusade-era forces, they draw far more from Arthurian legend than anything else. The Empire army allows me to field the two staples of the Crusade; mounted Knights and Crossbowmen. Bretonnian Knight units are a collection of noblemen, each with their own Heraldry. The Christian Crusaders almost universally abandoned their own Heraldry and adopted the icon of their order, almost always a varient of the Cross.

My own would likely use a stylised hammer icon due to the Sigmarite religion, and I would use the Bretonnian Knight models, although they shouldnt be readily identifyable as such once I findished working on them.

Ive heard Chaos Mortals could be a good choice for a small, "elite" force too, anyone have opinions on them?

TKitch
02-05-2006, 19:48
chaos can be a great elite force, but they hace virtually no shooting of anything.

although, a hellcannon is a beastly cannon...

Stouty
02-05-2006, 20:33
If you're going to use this army to help you get the job then make sure you don't break any WYSIWYG, and if you're using the empire rules use the empire knights, converting them at your leisure. Wouldn't wanto to confuse anyone into thinking it was a brett army, especially since the theme already treads such a thin line.

Mad Makz
03-05-2006, 05:38
If you want a generic non black powder warmachine for Empire then a Halfling Hotpot fits the bill nicely. Cheap, Strength 3/6 Stone Thrower, relatively short range but still ignores saves from memory. Just make it count as a 'Light Catapult' and away you go.

You could base your army around the Knights Panther who, I believe along with Bretonnian Knights, joined the Crusade against the forces of Araby after they invaded Estalia.

ashc
03-05-2006, 10:55
Anyone remember the crusading knights templar armylist from citadel journal? thats an option, and a fun one at that. And of course there were those rules for making rules for all the different orders and your own ones.

Ash

ankellagung
03-05-2006, 11:41
Those who are saying that his army is Brettonian not Empire due to crusade theme ought recheck their history books. Knights Panther and Leopard both were formed out of knights that took part in crusades, and it was in the crusades the the Knights of the Blazing Sun made their name.

Mag-El
03-05-2006, 11:45
Bretonnians bear no resemblance to Crusade-era forces, they draw far more from Arthurian legend than anything else. The Empire army allows me to field the two staples of the Crusade; mounted Knights and Crossbowmen. Bretonnian Knight units are a collection of noblemen, each with their own Heraldry. The Christian Crusaders almost universally abandoned their own Heraldry and adopted the icon of their order, almost always a varient of the Cross.



Most Crusaders were not knights, they were ordinary people.
Many crusaders did not belong to an Order, as those orders did have many restrictions in your daily life(like the Knightly Templares who did not allow a member to have a wife or sex, did not allow any wealth among itīs members etc) And many of these members were nobles or in the upper tier of the society. The first Crusade were even before the foundation of the famous orders in the Holy Land(Hospitalers and the Templars). And why canīt you just paint Brett models with a cross instead of using Heraldry(like most people do).
Brett models are more Crusader era than Empire models, like to see that barding in the middle-east=)

-Magnus

ashc
03-05-2006, 11:55
well it all depends on if you are going by real history or warhammer history. By Warhammer history it *was* the empire who did most of the crusading in araby, and they *did* do it in that plate mail and barding.

Ash

Mag-El
03-05-2006, 12:05
well it all depends on if you are going by real history or warhammer history. By Warhammer history it *was* the empire who did most of the crusading in araby, and they *did* do it in that plate mail and barding.

Ash

Most Nobles in the Middle-east courts were from France, and the armour on the Empire Knights didnīt even exist in 11-12th century.

-Magnus

ashc
03-05-2006, 12:18
Most Nobles in the Middle-east courts were from France, and the armour on the Empire Knights didnīt even exist in 11-12th century.

-Magnus

hence if you were doing a 'real historical' crusade army you would use bretonnian knights, but for the purposes of warhammers own history it was the empire, so it would depend on whether you are making a 'real' historical army in warhammer, or an army that follows Warhammers own 'History'

Ash

Mag-El
03-05-2006, 12:56
hence if you were doing a 'real historical' crusade army you would use bretonnian knights, but for the purposes of warhammers own history it was the empire, so it would depend on whether you are making a 'real' historical army in warhammer, or an army that follows Warhammers own 'History'

Ash

mea culpa, didnīt read your first post properly. My bad, thought you mean real history.

-Magnus

ashc
03-05-2006, 14:49
no probs, just wanted to make sure i was making sense! :)

Ash

sigur
03-05-2006, 16:26
WHFB and real history just don't mix well. The outcome is always a bad compromise of both and in the end it's unsatisfying. If you want to play an army of crusaders, play historical tabletops, they usually also have better rulesets (according to the tabletop guy from my local hobby store).

Yodhrin
03-05-2006, 16:53
WHFB and real history just don't mix well. The outcome is always a bad compromise of both and in the end it's unsatisfying. If you want to play an army of crusaders, play historical tabletops, they usually also have better rulesets (according to the tabletop guy from my local hobby store).

Sorry, but I dont accept that at all. Counts As armies with lots of conversions are my staple diet in 40K, and Im not changing that when I move into Fantasy, the only stock force which appeals to me in the range, as a whole(models and rules), is Beastmen, and Im not tackling those for my first army as I want at least a few missile troops.

As for the other comments; if I do this, it will be using Empire rules and converted Bretonnian models for the Knights. All Ill really need to do from a modelling perspective is cut+file down the helmets and remove any other obviously Arthurian imagery from them, the rest will be in the painting. The crossbowmen I have no idea on yet, Ill need to find a base model with combined leather/chainmail armour and a tabard or a cheap source of crossbows, then sculpt the helmets myself.

Im aware the Crusaders were mostly laymen, but that's not the image that comes to mind when someone says "The Crusades", is it? Most people will think of men in big metal helmets raining crossbow bolts down on their enemies from the ramparts or Knights with ruddy great swords and lances. Would Free Company led by a Warrior Priest by effective in game terms, do you think?

I like that Halfling Hotpot idea a lot, and the rules seem to fit well with the kind of catapult I had in mind(the smaller, wheeled variety as opposed to the massive trebuchet-style masonry throwers). Certainly better than just using Mortars or Cannons.

Any ideas on how to include other types of infantry without breaking the theme would be welcome, I just want to avoid it looking entirely like a Bretonnian army.

sigur
04-05-2006, 00:23
You can play as many "counts-as"-armies as you like; I think that those are great things. All I was saying is that armies totally based on an era of real-life history don't really fit in because sooner or later, you'll encounter an army that just doesn't have anything to do with any era of world's history and your whole armie's fluff will look strange compared to the other armie's. But that all is based on how historically correct you want your army to be of course.

cytoc
05-05-2006, 05:07
You can play as many "counts-as"-armies as you like; I think that those are great things. All I was saying is that armies totally based on an era of real-life history don't really fit in because sooner or later, you'll encounter an army that just doesn't have anything to do with any era of world's history and your whole armie's fluff will look strange compared to the other armie's. But that all is based on how historically correct you want your army to be of course.

It seems as though he's basing it on the Warhammer crusades, not the "real-life" crusades.