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Lance Tankmen
07-06-2012, 08:01
Ok so what i mean by max spells is for example we play a 4k game today and the vampire counts player had a ton of lvl 4's and 2's, he stated he gets to double up on his spells despite the book saying he does not, he had asked on his fourms about it or something, i didnt feel like arguing so i let it slide.

what i mean by doubleing is he has two casters with the raise dead spell because he already got all of them over.




edit:
as in he had 5 with lore of vampires
lvl4:signature,1,2,3
lvl4:signature,4,5,6
lvl2:signature,4
lvl2:signature,5
lvl2:signature,6

madival
07-06-2012, 08:13
The only way to have double spells like that is if one of his level 4s was kemmler. You only get double spells if one caster has no choice of spells (loremaster) . Your opponent also doesn't realize that he wastes most of that because he only casts 2-3 good spells a turn and wastes most of his potential

Lance Tankmen
07-06-2012, 08:25
i know, ill remember to tell him next time, but considering we had 2 level 2s and he had 7 casters(the other 2 were lore of death so he got his dice back making it work) it really tore us a new one with his purple sun...

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 19:00
To be clear the full rules on this are found on page 490 of the BRB (not sure of the page in the little one, it's The Lores of Magic in the Reference Section).

In summary, each spell may only be known once in an army. The exception to this is when a spell is not generated randomly, then that occurance of the spell does not count towards this. The common examples of this are Loremaster, an item that lets you pick spells (like Seer Staff for HE), and any spell that may be picked by exchanging another spell for it (such as the signature spells for all 8 of the main lores, the 1 spell of many of the older army specific lores, or a character - Dragon Mages in HE are the first that comes to mind - who can swap a spell in the Lore of Fire for a specific one, forget which off the top of my head, but it's not the signature).

Excluding from this any spell not randomly generated (as noted above) when you roll your wizards' spells any duplicate spells (whether for that wizard or for a different wizard in the army) must be replaced with another of your choice from the same Lore. If you can't do this (because all the spells are taken), then that spell slot is lost.

In your example, assuming he rolled them in that order he would actually have:
Lvl 4 - sig, 1, 2, 3
Lvl 4 - sig, 4, 5, 6
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)

Hell Storm
07-06-2012, 19:11
In your example, assuming he rolled them in that order he would actually have:
Lvl 4 - sig, 1, 2, 3
Lvl 4 - sig, 4, 5, 6
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - sig (loses second spell slot as no spells are available)

Its actually worse than that. If it was rolled in that order, You would get:
Lvl 4 - sig, 1, 2, 3
Lvl 4 - gets 4, 5, 6 then loses a single slot. He can switch one for the sig.
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)

If at any time, if he chooses not to swap out for the sig, then all other wizards that haven't rolled will not gt any spells. This is because you have to be able to get a spell that isn't known by anyone in order to swap it for the sig.

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 19:36
Its actually worse than that. If it was rolled in that order, You would get:
Lvl 4 - sig, 1, 2, 3
Lvl 4 - gets 4, 5, 6 then loses a single slot. He can switch one for the sig.
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)
Lvl 2 - only the spell that was swaped out. Can swap for sig. (loses all other slots as no spells are available)

If at any time, if he chooses not to swap out for the sig, then all other wizards that haven't rolled will not gt any spells. This is because you have to be able to get a spell that isn't known by anyone in order to swap it for the sig.

No, the procedure is pretty clear. You roll for each wizard a number of dice equal to their spell slots. You then are forced to swap out duplicates. If you can't swap then you lose the slot. It sounds redundant, but in the example he would technically roll 4 then 4 then 2 then 2 then 2 spells even though for all rolls but the first, the spells are esentially predetermined. So my lay out is correct. The second level 4 still rolls all his spells, he is just forced to swap out any 1, 2, or 3, and any duplicate (i.e. rolled 2+ of) 4, 5, or 6 and the only valid spells to end up with after restrictions is to swap for sig, and to swap or start to (or start with) 4, 5, 6.

The restriction on duplicates kicks in after the roll, if that helps you visualize it.

Lance Tankmen
07-06-2012, 19:46
thanks for the replys, id be more mad if we had lost but it was his death magic that turned the game almost, the purple sun ate thru units, he still lost by alot, score was 867 or so to our 1756, i had 2.2k in brets with a 1k in dwarfs vs his 4k undead and a friend testing the game with like 7 TK models

Hell Storm
07-06-2012, 20:27
No, the procedure is pretty clear. You roll for each wizard a number of dice equal to their spell slots. You then are forced to swap out duplicates. If you can't swap then you lose the slot. It sounds redundant, but in the example he would technically roll 4 then 4 then 2 then 2 then 2 spells even though for all rolls but the first, the spells are esentially predetermined. So my lay out is correct. The second level 4 still rolls all his spells, he is just forced to swap out any 1, 2, or 3, and any duplicate (i.e. rolled 2+ of) 4, 5, or 6 and the only valid spells to end up with after restrictions is to swap for sig, and to swap or start to (or start with) 4, 5, 6.

The restriction on duplicates kicks in after the roll, if that helps you visualize it.

No, you roll spells for wizards one at a time. Roll for the first wizard and swap out any duplicates he rolls. After that he can choose to swap for the signature spell. Then you roll the next wizard. He will then swap out any duplicates or spells that #1 knows. Since all of the spells (not including the signature) are known by someone and #2 still has an unfilled slot, he losses that slot. After loosing the slot he can choose to swap for the signature. Then you go to the next wizard and repeat. Once all of the spells numbered 1-6 are known, you can no longer choose to swap for the signature because you will always have to swap out duplicates before choosing the signature and you lose slots during the swap out duplicates part.

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 23:11
No, you roll spells for wizards one at a time. Roll for the first wizard and swap out any duplicates he rolls. After that he can choose to swap for the signature spell. Then you roll the next wizard. He will then swap out any duplicates or spells that #1 knows. Since all of the spells (not including the signature) are known by someone and #2 still has an unfilled slot, he losses that slot. After loosing the slot he can choose to swap for the signature. Then you go to the next wizard and repeat. Once all of the spells numbered 1-6 are known, you can no longer choose to swap for the signature because you will always have to swap out duplicates before choosing the signature and you lose slots during the swap out duplicates part.

I agree that you roll one wizard at a time and resolve it. That was what I was describing; sorry if it wasn't clear. I was attempting to show that you technically would roll and resolve every wizard in sequence, even though after the first it would be obvious there is only one solution, regardless of the rolls. Our only issue seems to be the timing of the replacement of duplicates and swapping of signature spells.

I would say the process would go as follows:

1) Roll 4 die for the first level 4 and get say 1, 2, 3, 6 and the player swaps 6 for the sig yielding: sig, 1, 2, 3.
2) Next roll 4 die for the second level 4 and get say 2, 4, 5, 6 and the player swaps the 2 for the sig, yielding: sig, 4, 5, 6.
3) Then roll 2 die for the first level 2 and swap one of the rolls for the sig and the other is lost.
4) Process the other level 2's the same as step 3.

That will yield what I posted before. I concede that if you read the Signature Spells section it seems to state that you would pick signature spell swapping only after resolving duplicates (which would yield your example) but that's not the case. It says you "can always choose to substitute" afterwards. There is nothing from stopping you from swapping a duplicate for a signature spell from the get-go (as I do, for example in step 2). If you would argue that you can't swap for signatures at that point then I would point you to the preceeding paragraph where it says "...you must normally replace the duplicate spell with another of your choice from the same Lore." So the signature spell is a valid choice, not just 1-6 since it is a spell of the lore, albeit one you can't actually roll from the beginning.

Bottomline: You swap a duplicate for any other available spell of the lore and by definition, the signature spell is always available. You may *also* swap any non-duplicate spell for the signature spell (which is what the Signature Spell portion I mentioned was getting at). So you can pick the signature to replace a duplicate, if you don't then you resolve all the duplication rules (which can include losing slots) and then you can chose to swap something you have left for the signature. In other words, the duplication section let's you get the signature spell from a duplicate and the signature spells paragraph let's you get it from a non-duplicate. Admittedly this get's convoluted so here's the full flow:

1) Pick a wizard who has spells that aren't yet determined.
2) Roll a Xd6 where X is the number of spells to determine.
3) Identify duplicate spells (in both this roll, i.e. 2 6's and in relation to army spells i.e. rolled 6 and a prior wizard has spell 6).
4) Swap all duplicates for available spells in the Lore. Note: The signature spell is always considered available.
5) Any duplicates that were not swapped are now lost.
6) If the wizard did not select the signature spell in step 4, he may now swap one of his valid (and non-duplicate, at this point) spells for the signature.

In fact, by strict reading of the rules, you must swap for the signature if all of the other spells are taken since it says you must swap out duplicates, if possible.

So to go by to my example:

1) Roll 4 die for the first level 4 and get say 1, 2, 3, 6 and the player swaps 6 for the sig yielding: sig, 1, 2, 3. In this case the sig was swapped because of the Signature Spells paragraph.
2) Next roll 4 die for the second level 4 and get say 2, 4, 5, 6 and the player swaps the 2 for the sig, yielding: sig, 4, 5, 6. In this case the sig was aquired by swapping out a duplicate for an available spell in the lore, the only one of which was the signature at this point.
3) Then roll 2 die for the first level 2 and swap one of the rolls for the sig and the other is lost. Again the sig is aquired by swapping one of the duplicates and the other spell slot is lost.
4) Process the other level 2's the same as step 3.

Hell Storm
07-06-2012, 23:29
After reading your explanation, it does look like it is possible to swap a duplicate for the signature without having to swap for it normally. I never looked at it like that. I thought it said you had to choose one of the six normal spells but it does say any spell in the lore. It is odd how they worded that paragraph but I guess that's just GW. Clear as mud.

AntaresCD
07-06-2012, 23:32
It is odd how they worded that paragraph but I guess that's just GW. Clear as mud.

Amen to that!

hazmiter
08-06-2012, 06:54
I found the easiest way for undead, is 1 lv4, 3 lv2s. All spells thanks.
Then any spares (if you want magic heavy :S) take the other lore available, otherwise you waste slots and points.
Spells from undeath, 1d6 them near mortis, spare dice go onto lore death.
Rince, repeat.
Or you can take mannfred, kemmler, and a lv4 necro...... If you have the points :p