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masthekat
08-06-2012, 16:57
Hi guys,

I'm thinking of starting a Lizardmen army, since no one in my local gaming club plays them, but I've been wondering, are they any good? I'm not talking "I must win every time, at all costs", but rather, are they a decent enough army where a person will have fun with them? Is it a tough army to play (ie: one that routinely gets its butt kicked)? What is your experience?

Thanks!

-Max

warplock
08-06-2012, 17:17
They range, in my opinion, from solid to very strong. The 'very strong' aspect of the army comes from their cheap, powerful and very reliable magic in the form of the Slann. There are a few builds based around a Slann bunkered in Temple Guard which are very good at points denial. All-round, though, they're definitely strong enough to put up a good fight against any other army. Their combat blocks are good value, strong, tough, and very stalwart. They have a few good monsters and powerful mid-range shooting (salamanders). Problem is, without magic they tend to struggle a bit due to low WS and I, and medium cost, meaning they outfight weak enemy core, but not fast enough, and are utterly outclassed by enemy elites. There's a few different routes you could go down:
Slann-based, temple guard block: This is probably the strongest and most competetive build.
Solo-Slann, saurus blocks: No 'deathstar' unit, instead the Slann tries to keep out of harm's way and boost the reliable, if somewhat 'mediocre', Saurus blocks.
Carnosaur Oldblood: No room for a Slann in this list, instead you take a combat lord mounted on a big dinosaur who will absolutely shred anything in his path.
'Monster mash': lots of stegadons, high toughness units, kroxigors (monstrous infantry)
Southlands: A Slann supported by tons and tons of Skinks, overwhelming the enemy with masses of poisoned shots.

Ultimate Life Form
08-06-2012, 17:25
Let me just say that Lizardmen was my first army; it's actually what sucked me into the game in the first place (the other races just didn't look so appealing at that time), and YES, a person can definitely have tons of fun with them. The Beauty of Lizardmen is that they have the potential to be relatively strong in all aspects of the game - maybe lacking a bit in terms of raw firepower though. It's all up to you and how you want to tailor your list...

As I always say, Lizardmen = best army in the game (this does not have anything to do with powerlevel, though they certainly aren't weak, either).

MR. GRUMPY
08-06-2012, 17:53
One of the filthiest armies if you want to build them like that. But balanced Lizard list with a slann, some saurus block, skins and a few other goodies like salamander or stegadons are very fun to play in all phases of the game although they do rely on the magic phase quite a lot.

The bearded one
08-06-2012, 17:56
Lizardmen are certainly quite good, pretty high up there, actually.

What I find the beauty of lizardmen, is that they have a lot of different types of troops and options, allowing you to do plenty in all phases of the game, and having an enormous amount of manoeuvrability with skinks, hunting packs and terradons. I started lizardmen after my dwarfs, and with lizardmen I figured out what I enjoy most in an army, and I enjoy having plenty of units to move around. Such flexibility is very appealing and very entertaining to play with on the table.

tmarichards
08-06-2012, 18:18
Their exact position may vary depending on who you ask, but they're generally seen as being one of the 3 most powerful armies in the game.

BooTMGSG
09-06-2012, 15:02
They were my entry into WFB. There were a number of reasons behind it.
1.) The have dinosaurs.
2.) They have something to give in all phases.
3.) The have big Dinosaurs.
4.) They have the all powerful Hypnotoad!.
5.) They are the cranky old men of the warhammer world, and hate it when the young'uns mess about with their world.
6.) They have a dinosaur with a frikk'in lazor on its back!

Who cares about what tier they are on.

Tarliyn
10-06-2012, 20:11
They have dinosaurs. Done. But seriously, lizards were my first army. I used the slann points denial before it was cool, lol. Lots of options and plenty of list possibilties. Just wish cold ones and basic krox units were a tad bit better.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doommasters
11-06-2012, 04:11
You can't go wrong with Lizardmen, the potential is there to create hard as nails lists that can go toe to toe with the best of the best and also create fun fluffy lists.

My biggest issue like a number of other amries is it is really hard to take the old blood on carney. Once you play with Slann you really notice the difference in power level of the army, it is sad but the Slann is just so dam good!

Slann is what makes Lizardmen a top tier army plane and simple, the rest of the army is average which is a good thing in 8th edition :)

Ebon
11-06-2012, 06:44
Potentially very strong. Your basic Saurus infantry are some of the best basic troops in the game, Skinks can harass the hell out of anything for minimal points cost, your magic phase can be positively brutal and you get a dinosaur with a bolt thrower on it's back (or, for more points, a frickin' laser). They're definitely competitive enough to have a lot of fun with.

dms505
11-06-2012, 12:06
They are amazing average and balanced. The list and the player can tip the scales to greatness. As mentioned they have something to bring to every phase. My only issue with them is that because you need to use a Slann for magic, it gimps the other caster options. You end up taking a little skink priest for his 1 spell which may or may not get used and as a Dispell Scroll caddy. Skink Skirmishers are feared by anyone with war machines and monsters. They have to make changes to their deployment plans when playing lizardmen characters.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but the Scar Vet heroes are better than a lot of Lords of other armies for a tidy 90 points. 4 attacks, S5 T5 makes them almost a monster class.

. . . and they have Dinosaurs.

Doommasters
13-06-2012, 02:45
They are amazing average and balanced. The list and the player can tip the scales to greatness. As mentioned they have something to bring to every phase. My only issue with them is that because you need to use a Slann for magic, it gimps the other caster options. You end up taking a little skink priest for his 1 spell which may or may not get used and as a Dispell Scroll caddy. Skink Skirmishers are feared by anyone with war machines and monsters. They have to make changes to their deployment plans when playing lizardmen characters.

Also I don't know if it's been mentioned but the Scar Vet heroes are better than a lot of Lords of other armies for a tidy 90 points. 4 attacks, S5 T5 makes them almost a monster class.

. . . and they have Dinosaurs.

The Slann is the lizardmens greatest asset but also the cause of the poor internal balance when it comes to characters.

Ultimate Life Form
13-06-2012, 03:36
The Slann is the lizardmens greatest asset but also the cause of the poor internal balance when it comes to characters.

Yes. But he is by no means a no-brainer. The Slann is mighty, but if the rolls are bad in the Magic Phase he can also seriously let you down. Trust me, it's not pretty. And if the enemy scores a lucky cannon hit, there goes your 500 points spellcaster general / army backbone. The Slann may be more powerful, but also a bit of a glass cannon. A well rounded selection of characters is more reliable overall. Besides, in 8th Edition you don't really need the über casters anymore to have an actual impact in the Magic Phase. A Level 2 Skink Priest can cast pretty nasty stuff too you know.

Sexiest_hero
13-06-2012, 05:22
Put a Lord on a Carnasaur and give him the Ruby ring and dragon helm. Use a Godzilla toy as the model. Aim him at another monster. Profit!

Whaagnomore
13-06-2012, 11:42
The Slann may be more powerful, but also a bit of a glass cannon .

I disagree, the slann is probably the toughest caster out there, he has an innate 4+ward, a solid 5 wounds, can get gear that protects against miscasts, can become semi-ethereal, can get a 2+ ward vs shooting, can stand in the second rank of a unit of TG, having T4 doesnt hurt either.

An empire wizard, now there's a glass cannon.

Ultimate Life Form
13-06-2012, 13:39
I disagree, the slann is probably the toughest caster out there, he has an innate 4+ward, a solid 5 wounds, can get gear that protects against miscasts, can become semi-ethereal, can get a 2+ ward vs shooting, can stand in the second rank of a unit of TG, having T4 doesnt hurt either.


Yet if the dice will it, he can still undo himself in a single moment. And if he's the BSB (which is a no-brainer really), breaking from combat means instant KO for him. Also you forgot to mention that the setup you suggest would easily cost half your point allowance, making him quite isolated on the battlefield and therefore very easy to pick off. Trust me, I know my stuff around Lizardmen.


An empire wizard, now there's a glass cannon.

This guy also costs only a fracture of the Slann's points.

N810
13-06-2012, 14:22
They are prety good, but far from invinceable, And generaly prety fun.

Urgat
13-06-2012, 14:37
And if he's the BSB (which is a no-brainer really),

Is it? People keep telling how you have to have the slann as the BSB, and then they keep telling how it is a weakness for the slann. Is it such a far-fetched idea to have the slaan, and a scar-vet or a skink chief as the BSB? Sorry that it has to fall on you, but after a while this argument is getting old. If it's so bad, just don't do it? Because it is not a no-brainer, in fact. Just do like everybody else and burn some points on a cheap hero, if that worries you so much. Might be that you'll be able to do new tricks if you got a BSB that can actually change units, for a change.

N810
13-06-2012, 15:01
Don't for the cold one calvery and temple guard standard bears can take magic standards as well.

Whaagnomore
13-06-2012, 15:26
Yet if the dice will it, he can still undo himself in a single moment. And if he's the BSB (which is a no-brainer really), breaking from combat means instant KO for him. Also you forgot to mention that the setup you suggest would easily cost half your point allowance, making him quite isolated on the battlefield and therefore very easy to pick off. Trust me, I know my stuff around Lizardmen.
This guy also costs only a fracture of the Slann's points.

Being subject to miscasts doesnt make one a glass cannon, and with access to cupped hands you have some of the best defence against dimensional cascade there is.
Having the Slann as a bsb IS a no-brainer, and with the normal setup with TG he almost never breaks.
I never suggested any setup in specific, I just gave good examples for the many ways for a Slann to be hard to kill (even more than he already is).

Lastly, I never implied that you dont know your "stuff" about Lizardmen, but then again... calling the Slann a "glass cannon". :eyebrows:

tmarichards
13-06-2012, 15:55
Please let's not derail another thread with people arguing that the Slann isn't over-powered.

N810
13-06-2012, 16:02
LOL yea hes more of a wooden cannon. :p


But, yea if you like Lizardmen, get some they are a decent army. :D

Inevitable
13-06-2012, 18:40
They were my entry into WFB. There were a number of reasons behind it.
1.) The have dinosaurs.
2.) They have something to give in all phases.
3.) The have big Dinosaurs.
4.) They have the all powerful Hypnotoad!.
5.) They are the cranky old men of the warhammer world, and hate it when the young'uns mess about with their world.
6.) They have a dinosaur with a frikk'in lazor on its back!

Who cares about what tier they are on.

This man speaks the truth and profit. All hail the hypnotoad.

Ebon
13-06-2012, 22:35
The Slann isn't over-powered. Yes, he's good but he also costs a LOT of points, especially if you have TG to guard him.

tmarichards
13-06-2012, 23:29
Massive misconception there- you do not have to spend more than 365pts to get a very cost efficient Slann, and he does not need a Temple Guard unit to hide him in. The idea that a Slann must cost 500+pts, and that he must have a 500+pt Temple guard bunker, is not accurate at all.

Ultimate Life Form
14-06-2012, 10:51
Is it? People keep telling how you have to have the slann as the BSB, and then they keep telling how it is a weakness for the slann. Is it such a far-fetched idea to have the slaan, and a scar-vet or a skink chief as the BSB?

Well, if you go by that logic nothing in the game is a no brainer. Which is an idea I actually embrace, because I'm much in favor of trying out things and generally prefer style over power. However some things are simply so good that if you actually want to win, it would be folly to pass up the opportunity. Don't tell me you of all people don't see the reasoning behind it. The reason why people put the BS on the Slann is quite obviously because he is the only General in the entire game capable of pulling this feat off, combining the advantages of both mechanics in one model (the BSB doesn't want to stroll far from the General anyway, especially in a small army like Lizardmen). And, most importantly, because it means you can have your BSB chilling out comfortably in the back row for the entire game whereas any Skink BSB wouldn't live past turn 2. The reason people do it is because the advantages by far outweigh the risks. Because the Slann isn't supposed to break. But it's a two-edged sword nonetheless. Because sometimes the Slann does break. Yes, even Ld9 cold blooded rerollable doesn't prevent that. It happened to me numerous times actually despite the odds being something like less than 2% if I'm not mistaken. So it is something to consider. The argument may be old but still valid.




Lastly, I never implied that you dont know your "stuff" about Lizardmen, but then again... calling the Slann a "glass cannon". :eyebrows:

Well, believe it or not, I have actually witnessed 4 Empire Pistoliers beating the living crap out of him. When he's cornered he's pretty much a lame duck. You never implied anything, just as I didn't imply that the Slann is a total pushover. That's why I said a bit of a glass cannon to soften the blow (yes, the nuances are just as important!). I just threw in a few thoughts and wanted to tell of my personal experiences which may help the OP. Anyway, I didn't come here to argue. Let's just agree to disagree... wait, actually we all agree that the Slann is a very good choice right, so there is no point in fighting a phantom battle here. With that, I'm off.

Doommasters
14-06-2012, 11:24
The Slann isn't over-powered. Yes, he's good but he also costs a LOT of points, especially if you have TG to guard him.

How can you make a statement like that with a straight face.

Urgat
14-06-2012, 11:56
Well, if you go by that logic nothing in the game is a no brainer. Which is an idea I actually embrace, because I'm much in favor of trying out things and generally prefer style over power. However some things are simply so good that if you actually want to win, it would be folly to pass up the opportunity. Don't tell me you of all people don't see the reasoning behind it. The reason why people put the BS on the Slann is quite obviously because he is the only General in the entire game capable of pulling this feat off, combining the advantages of both mechanics in one model (the BSB doesn't want to stroll far from the General anyway, especially in a small army like Lizardmen). And, most importantly, because it means you can have your BSB chilling out comfortably in the back row for the entire game whereas any Skink BSB wouldn't live past turn 2. The reason people do it is because the advantages by far outweigh the risks. Because the Slann isn't supposed to break. But it's a two-edged sword nonetheless. Because sometimes the Slann does break. Yes, even Ld9 cold blooded rerollable doesn't prevent that. It happened to me numerous times actually despite the odds being something like less than 2% if I'm not mistaken. So it is something to consider. The argument may be old but still valid.

But I'm not convinced the advantages are that great. My goblin BSB certainly doesn't die by turn two every game, honestly (and you can have a scar vet BSB, those are reasonably tough anyway). I get all the advantages of course, but you lose a lot in flexibility. And LM strike me as the one army (besides undead and demons obviously) that can get away with a BSB running around. It doesn't need to stand in the same unit as the general, it can be in the unit next to it, making hitting the slann unit not such a no brainer for the opponent. I'm not so convinced a separate BSB is a bad idea, in short. I do think trying something different is always worth a shot.

Inevitable
14-06-2012, 21:32
But I'm not convinced the advantages are that great. My goblin BSB certainly doesn't die by turn two every game, honestly (and you can have a scar vet BSB, those are reasonably tough anyway). I get all the advantages of course, but you lose a lot in flexibility. And LM strike me as the one army (besides undead and demons obviously) that can get away with a BSB running around. It doesn't need to stand in the same unit as the general, it can be in the unit next to it, making hitting the slann unit not such a no brainer for the opponent. I'm not so convinced a separate BSB is a bad idea, in short. I do think trying something different is always worth a shot.

Standard of Discipline on either the Slann or the Unit

LD10, 3d6, drop the highest, rerollable. Far far far less than 2% chance to break. Like, if your Slann breaks go buy a lottery ticket because you sir have just won @ life. A slann will nearly always die before he flees.

*Sidenote: I've never had a reason not to use my Slann as the BSB. It's cost effective (not needing to worry about protecting a skink or saurus) in a unit that is Stubborn while the Slann is alive, with the above mentioned ability to NOT BREAK.

You don't need to go points crazy on the Slann. Base Slann, Rumination, BSB, Discipline is very cheap. Then buy him a solid bunker (12-16 temple guard) and take Lore of Life. Until you destroy his bunker completely and/or kill him, he isn't moving. All in all that's about 700-900 points depending. If you have extra points after you build the rest of your army give him Focus of Magic to get Loremaster or becalming presence. Then if you still have points give him cupped hands.

Slann's are pretty much a no-brainer, but everyone tries to make a 500 pt slann & 500+ pt Temple guard even in 2k/2.5k games. You don't *need* everything. In a 2k game you can live with a dispel scroll on your skink, you don't *need* both cupped hands & becalming, especially if you are planning on playing life which will already give you a 2+ evasion of a miscast.

N810
14-06-2012, 21:54
yep its 1% better now... points well spent. :p

Doommasters
14-06-2012, 21:58
Standard of Discipline on either the Slann or the Unit

LD10, 3d6, drop the highest, rerollable. Far far far less than 2% chance to break. Like, if your Slann breaks go buy a lottery ticket because you sir have just won @ life. A slann will nearly always die before he flees.

*Sidenote: I've never had a reason not to use my Slann as the BSB. It's cost effective (not needing to worry about protecting a skink or saurus) in a unit that is Stubborn while the Slann is alive, with the above mentioned ability to NOT BREAK.

You don't need to go points crazy on the Slann. Base Slann, Rumination, BSB, Discipline is very cheap. Then buy him a solid bunker (12-16 temple guard) and take Lore of Life. Until you destroy his bunker completely and/or kill him, he isn't moving. All in all that's about 700-900 points depending. If you have extra points after you build the rest of your army give him Focus of Magic to get Loremaster or becalming presence. Then if you still have points give him cupped hands.

Slann's are pretty much a no-brainer, but everyone tries to make a 500 pt slann & 500+ pt Temple guard even in 2k/2.5k games. You don't *need* everything. In a 2k game you can live with a dispel scroll on your skink, you don't *need* both cupped hands & becalming, especially if you are planning on playing life which will already give you a 2+ evasion of a miscast.

The truth he speaks, the I will agree that I really like the concept of the Slann and think he fits the fluff well. The real issue is how powerful the brb magic lores are becuase the Slann is very cost effective when you look at what some of those spells can acheive. The fluff behind a Slann you expect to get one of the most powerful spellcasters in the game its just the tacted on benfits you can have along with how powerful brb lores are that makes him IMO the best non 'special' spell caster in the game. In saying that the Lizardmen Army is fun to play against and with provided you don't abuse the Slann to its full potential every game.

The bearded one
14-06-2012, 22:11
I have 26 templeguard in hordeformation with BSB slann with cupped hands, ruminations, becalming and loremaster of lore of life... and a dragonbane gem.




I think I'm a bad person :D

tmarichards
14-06-2012, 22:23
Not really, Temple Guard are pretty much considered a fluff choice.

Inevitable
14-06-2012, 22:32
yep its 1% better now... points well spent. :p

It's about 3% better if math serves as result 16 is about 3% in itself on 3d6

Regardless of scenario (assuming stubborn and no spells reducing your leadership which aren't prevailant at all) you fail on results 17&18. Those alone are about 2% of all results of 3 dice rolled. By increasing leadership to 10 you are now immune to results of a 16 in any fashion which is about 3% of rolls in itself. Thus you've gone from a 95% success rate to about a 98% success rate thus improving probability by 3%

However, once you start factoring in things like Doom and Darkness, the Totem from Chaos Warriors, etc things that can reduce your leadership. Suddenly going from say a Leadership 9 down to a 6 is alot deadlier than a Leadership 10 to a 7.

Not to mention not all of your units will benefit from the stubborn your slann will. Which is another reason why Leadership 10 is a boon over leadership 9.

*Note: Once you calculate Rerolls it's rather negligable between Leadership 10 & 9 on the units (9 is 0.25% chance to break and 10 is 0.04% chance to break). However, I don't like to calculate averages based on 6 dice since it'll be a 5% chance to roll a failure -v- 2% chance. And replicating that roll. Thus each roll on a Ld9 has a 5% chance of failure.

It's like having to roll a d20 for a 20 instead of a d100 for an 0.02. It's far easier to replicate 2 20s in a row than it is 2 02's in a row. Thus replicating 16 or higher on 3d6 is far more common than 17 on 3d6.

You've increased your risk by 2.5x by not taking a cheap point magic item. That cheap point magic item will keep your army far more survivable than any version of basic troops. The standard is by far more of a no-brainer than anything else a Slann gets (except magic Rumination)

I've personally never seen a Leadership 10 Slann Flee, but I have seen a Leadership 9 Slann flee multiple times.

N810
14-06-2012, 22:38
143034
(Math Hammer Odds)

My bad it actually 0.3% Difference between Cold Blooded BSB LD9 and Cold Blooded BSB LD10.

The bearded one
14-06-2012, 22:39
However, once you start factoring in things like Doom and Darkness, the Totem from Chaos Warriors, etc things that can reduce your leadership. Suddenly going from say a Leadership 9 down to a 6 is alot deadlier than a Leadership 10 to a 7.

Why are you arguing with -3 to ld items/spells as an example, when there are very few that actually do -3? :p Doom and darkness does, the masque can potentially (has to roll a D3), and the chaos warrior and daemon banners do -1 and -2 respectively. Beastmen have a -1 ld banner as well and VC a -1 ld power. I personally would have the standard of discipline, (or possible the banner of swiftness, it's nice for a templeguard horde to move quickly) if I had the points left for it ;)

Urgat
14-06-2012, 22:49
Standard of Discipline on either the Slann or the Unit

LD10, 3d6, drop the highest, rerollable. Far far far less than 2% chance to break. Like, if your Slann breaks go buy a lottery ticket because you sir have just won @ life. A slann will nearly always die before he flees.

*Sidenote: I've never had a reason not to use my Slann as the BSB. It's cost effective (not needing to worry about protecting a skink or saurus) in a unit that is Stubborn while the Slann is alive, with the above mentioned ability to NOT BREAK.

You don't need to go points crazy on the Slann. Base Slann, Rumination, BSB, Discipline is very cheap. Then buy him a solid bunker (12-16 temple guard) and take Lore of Life. Until you destroy his bunker completely and/or kill him, he isn't moving. All in all that's about 700-900 points depending. If you have extra points after you build the rest of your army give him Focus of Magic to get Loremaster or becalming presence. Then if you still have points give him cupped hands.

Slann's are pretty much a no-brainer, but everyone tries to make a 500 pt slann & 500+ pt Temple guard even in 2k/2.5k games. You don't *need* everything. In a 2k game you can live with a dispel scroll on your skink, you don't *need* both cupped hands & becalming, especially if you are planning on playing life which will already give you a 2+ evasion of a miscast.

So I'm back to point 1, the risk of losing the slann if he flees is pretty much anecdotal, so why bring it every time?

Inevitable
14-06-2012, 22:50
Why are you arguing with -3 to ld items/spells as an example, when there are very few that actually do -3? :p Doom and darkness does, the masque can potentially (has to roll a D3), and the chaos warrior and daemon banners do -1 and -2 respectively. Beastmen have a -1 ld banner as well.

Thank you N8 for at least proving my math was correct. Statistically you stand a 99.9 -v- 99.7 chance on a stat sheat. But the actual probably was 95% for 3d6. Thus you have a 5% chance each roll of rolling a failure, -v- a 2% chance. Risk increased 2.5x

Ok, so let's ignore the fact that Death is one of the most common lores people take (Purple Sun) and Daemons of Chaos/Warriors of chaos are not two of the most popular armies.

So let's see what armies I can think of that can use leadership bombs:
High Elves
Dark Elves
Empire
Warriors of Chaos
Daemons of Chaos
Beastmen
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts

Unsure:
Wood Elves
Skaven
Tomb Kings

Pretty Sure Can't:
Dwarves


Out of this list 8 / 12 armies can make use of 1 or multiple leadership affect spells (66.66% repeating of course). This is not taking into account popularity (Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts) all of which have massive popularity. I don't have numbers to back up popularity.

The point I'm making is that if you are building a list to compete (all-comers) then standard of discipline is worth more than 1 Temple Guard. Thus if you could afford 20 TG, kill one, take 19, and take the standard. Don't play around with averages.

The most common "break roll" that isn't a "I completely trounce you, 2's to stay" is usually in the realm of 2-5 pts. That means a 9 becomes a 7 - 4, where a 10 becomes an 8-5. Thus you've increased the probability of your army in your 12" leadership bubble of staying by drastic amounts.

I'm not trying to be a pest or anything but merely argue that you cannot deny the fact that leadership tests happen so often and so frequently that a cheap magic item increasing your probabilities is worthwhile.

The bearded one
14-06-2012, 23:04
Thank you N8 for at least proving my math was correct. Statistically you stand a 99.9 -v- 99.7 chance on a stat sheat. But the actual probably was 95% for 3d6. Thus you have a 5% chance each roll of rolling a failure, -v- a 2% chance. Risk increased 2.5x

Ok, so let's ignore the fact that Death is one of the most common lores people take (Purple Sun) and Daemons of Chaos/Warriors of chaos are not two of the most popular armies.

So let's see what armies I can think of that can use leadership bombs:
High Elves
Dark Elves
Empire
Warriors of Chaos
Daemons of Chaos
Beastmen
Ogre Kingdoms
Vampire Counts

Unsure:
Wood Elves
Skaven
Tomb Kings

Pretty Sure Can't:
Dwarves


Out of this list 8 / 12 armies can make use of 1 or multiple leadership affect spells (66.66% repeating of course). This is not taking into account popularity (Empire, Warriors of Chaos, Daemons of Chaos, Elves, Skaven, Vampire Counts) all of which have massive popularity. I don't have numbers to back up popularity.

I'm not denying having the standard provides a good benefit to your odds, because it is, and I am currently switching my stegadon for a unit of skinks and kroxigor, leaving me enough points to take it, but I am merely challenging the assertion of reasoning around spells, items and abilities that produce -3 to leadership, as getting -3 outside of doom and darkness is not common. That is assuming we're talking templeguard here, where only these things affect their stubborn leadership. Any other unit you can simply trounce in combat and get the modifer that way.

Can you list for all those armies how they manage a -3 to leadership, barring the lore of death (which is not hugely popular actually, shadows is significantly more popular, nasty and versatile (mindrazor, pit of shades, withering, enfeebling). Daemons can ld-bomb effectively with the masque and great icon of despair getting between -3 and -5. Beastmen have a -1 ld banner, affecting units within 6", warriors -1 within line of sight, VC -1 ability in basecontact. Far from -3.

Inevitable
14-06-2012, 23:11
I was using the -3 from D&D as an example. The most common is a -1, which even at that point starts to affect the game negatively. My point originally, and I apologize if it got lost in the math, was that a standard of discipline is pretty much the only item I'd claim as "required" within a unit containing your Slann General (regardless if he was BSB or not). Even moreso than Cupped Hands or Focus of Mystery. Although, I think Rumination's worth outweighs all other Slann Abilities. It effectively adds at least 1-6 dice per magic phase (sometimes more). The most spells I've had a slann personally cast was 9 (7 lore, 1 item, 1 building/terrain) in a SoM game with 4d6 dice. Free 9 dice that phase.

Ultimate Life Form
15-06-2012, 04:00
Hm, seems to be my bad, I must be cursed or something, how come I manage to turn a simple "is this army good" thread into yet another episode of Mathhammer Extraordinaire? Anything I touch is doomed... :cries:


But I'm not convinced the advantages are that great. My goblin BSB certainly doesn't die by turn two every game, honestly
But he's also T4. We Lizardmen are in the the odd situation of having some of the strongest characters in the game as well as some of the weakest. Skink Chief is T3 and also can have next to no armor. Basically he's about as durable as any random rank and file model, only slightly more fighty. The only reason why one would ever consider a Skink BSB is either because you run a Skink army (though I've never heard of that before) or to take the Skavenpelt Banner. Which I did before, but in a Slannless list. As I said I like experimenting around, but sometimes you need to get serious, too.


and you can have a scar vet BSB, those are reasonably tough
Yes, but they cost a bucketload of points, and in a Slann list, believe it or not, every single point does count. We're no like you Greenskins blessed with an overabundance of choices. There is a certain staple of things that we must take to be reasonably competitive, and those things are costly. Whenever I write a Slann list I find that 25% of the stuff I wanted doesn't fit into my point allowance. I have certainly no leeway for an extra Scarvet just for the sake of it.


I get all the advantages of course, but you lose a lot in flexibility. And LM strike me as the one army (besides undead and demons obviously) that can get away with a BSB running around. It doesn't need to stand in the same unit as the general, it can be in the unit next to it, making hitting the slann unit not such a no brainer for the opponent. I'm not so convinced a separate BSB is a bad idea, in short. I do think trying something different is always worth a shot.
These are all valid points of course. Well, maybe I'll just go wild and try it out next time (not that this would be anytime soon) just so I can expand my knowledge in the ways of the Old Ones. If I want to call myself a true master of Lizardmen and a loyal servant of the Old Ones I must stay open minded and have faith in the guidance of the gods. Thanks for teaching me this valuable lesson and restoring my idealism. I guess playing against overcompetitive tournament players all the time really does leave you embittered and dull minded after a while.

Inevitable
15-06-2012, 15:45
Hm, seems to be my bad, I must be cursed or something, how come I manage to turn a simple "is this army good" thread into yet another episode of Mathhammer Extraordinaire? Anything I touch is doomed... :cries:


Some people like explaining how an army is good through mathematical formula's and/or theories. It's just the diversity of the gaming scene that when asking whether something is good or not will get you a variety of answers. I personally love math and thus I often explain things using math in some fashion as a backup.

However, I have also stated that Lizardmen are a great army. If I didn't love my Greenskins as much as I do, I'd play Lizardmen more. That being said (and this is slightly skewed towards region) but I've never seen a lizardmen player rank in the last 25% in Tournaments and are always either Mid-Placement or Top-Placement and usually can squeak out a 3rd place victory. Not sure if the OP cares about Tournament capability but in my personal opinion Lizardmen are as tournament capable as any other army out there while being awesome to look at.

Soundwave
18-06-2012, 10:15
I versed lizardmen (again) with my high elves today and just managed to scrape a victory.I find them to be great opponents and incredibly tough,the slann humbled teclis by stealing all his 6"s and dumping his first miscast on him!Saurus warriors rip massive chunks out of everything and stegedons are dangerous as well as tough,and the little cheeky skinks can get up to a hell of alot of mischief.I had aversions to them in there initial release in 5th ed(?maybe) but since then they have blossomed to become quite a characterful and competitive army.I think there a real winner and great choice.

Urgat
18-06-2012, 10:28
We're no like you Greenskins blessed with an overabundance of choices.

"fidgety"
I have no idea what you're talking about :shifty:
"whistles"

Lingula
18-06-2012, 10:44
I have only started with warhammer again recently and went with lizardmen. only 1000pts atm at local GW store but loving them :)

Saurus warrior with scar vet tear everything to bits, skink skirmishers cause all sorts of problems when you set them up in the enemy set up are on their flanks. my stegadon has been good fun, crushing high elves all over.

whatever you do take Cupped hands... one high elf opponent spent two turns trying to kill a skink priest with everything he had because he knew i had that item. in the meantime i got my saurus and steg. into combat and it was lights out. when you have cupped hands you really want to get a miscast off early - so some high rolling casts on big spells like chain lightning early on are good.

so anyway.... i am really enjoying playing with them at the moment.

warplock
18-06-2012, 12:45
whatever you do take Cupped hands... one high elf opponent spent two turns trying to kill a skink priest with everything he had because he knew i had that item. in the meantime i got my saurus and steg. into combat and it was lights out. when you have cupped hands you really want to get a miscast off early - so some high rolling casts on big spells like chain lightning early on are good.


I have to comment, you mention rolling high on chain lightning early on - are you giving your Slann the Lore of Heavens? It's fine if you are, interesting choice in fact, but I want to check you aren't trying to make your Skinks miscast so that you can use Cupped Hands - Cupped Hands is a Slann-only item!
Also, just want to check you're aware that the miscast can be fgiven to enemy spellcasters too!

P.S. congrats on playing lizzies, they're an awesome army!

Soundwave
18-06-2012, 13:13
Whilst on the topic skink skirmishers "set up on enemy set up flanks" i hope you realize skirmish does not allow one to scout.

Lingula
18-06-2012, 20:59
I have to comment, you mention rolling high on chain lightning early on - are you giving your Slann the Lore of Heavens? It's fine if you are, interesting choice in fact, but I want to check you aren't trying to make your Skinks miscast so that you can use Cupped Hands - Cupped Hands is a Slann-only item!

I suddenly got concerned as i have using it on a skink priest (1000pt games atm at the local GW - so checked my army book and there is no mention of it being Slaan only. is it in the errata or something? (yep, i have the latest edition)

dhagi
18-06-2012, 21:03
Just looked through it all and Lingula is right. Skinks are allowed to use it, and being 45 points it falls within their magic item allotment.

warplock
19-06-2012, 11:44
Oh dear, note to self, make sure to double check in the book first! Skinks can indeed use it, my bad.