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AndrewGPaul
12-06-2012, 10:10
I got my hands on a copy of White Dwarf presents: Warhammer 40,000 Battles, a compilation of White Dwarf articles for 2nd edition 40k (rules for Adeptus Arbites, Razorbacks and bunkers, as well as a selection of battle reports). I had a quick read through the battle report used as the introduction to 2nd edition 40k; Andy Chambers' Blood ANgels against Jervis Johnson's Orks. With those two participants, the conclusion is obvious, but it was still an interesting read.

Firstly, the choice of armies. on Andy's side, we have the army commander - Brother-Captain Erasmus Tycho, looking like this (http://kofler.dot.at/40k/units/Blood_Angel_Captain.gif). He chose a captain, then went on to select the rest of the army, leaving the selection of his wargear until the end when he knew how many points he had left. As it turned out, he had no points left, so Tycho took to the field equipped with ... a bolter.

Other interesting choices were a squad of Terminators in a Rhino, and a Dreadnought, included for heavy support, but also because it was the latest toy. :)

In total, he had a Captain, a Tactical Squad, a Devastator Squad, a Terminator Squad in a Rhino and a Dreadnought. 26 Marines and 2 vehicles for 1,500 points.

Notably, despite the battle being a "1,500 point" game, Andy's army list came in at 1,522 points, so the Orks got some extra points for wargear cards.

On the Ork side, Jervis' army was basically a matter of "what do I have that's painted", with some very small mobs by today's standard; all the Boyz mobs were of ten models, or fewer. The Nobz mob consisted of five models. The venerable old battlewagon kit makes an appearance (one of its last, IIRC). He had 60-70 Orks, a Dreadnought and a Battlewagon.

On to the battle; the missions were Dawn Raid for the Marines (get a squad or vehicle into the enemy's deployment zone) and Assassinate for the Orks (kill the enemy commander). Since there were no bunkers, it was a standard 4-turn game.

The Marines started well, with the Dreadnought on the left flank shooting down its Ork counterpart with its multi-melta, and the Terminators moving (nearly) into position in some rocks. Unfortunately, it went a little downhill in the next few turns; the Terminators lost two of their number to Ork fire, and importantly, Captain Tycho was killed by the Ork Weirdboy's psychic bolt in turn two. Some rather disastrous shooting from the Marines ensued for a couple of turns, but in the end, they managed to eke out a win; 9VPs to 8 after the entire Ork army failed to finish off the Terminators.

Compared to today's games, the differences were interesting. After reading the "6x4 is no longer practical" thread, this game featured two relatively tiny armies duking it out on an 8' x 4' board, and it ended up supplying the backstory to one of the current special characters. The attitude to army selection also mirros mine (or perhaps, that's where I took my inspiration); army selection based at least partly on "what's painted?" and "what looks cool?" and not worrying unduly if you go over the limit. Also, I'd forgotten about Andy Chambers' crazy 90s hair. :)

Memnon
12-06-2012, 21:40
Ah, I remember reading that very battle report many moons ago! Classic GW, sadly lost to time... Interesting that modern Ork armies probably feature less than 70 Orks in 1500 point games (my 1k has 30) but modern Marines would be significantly bigger than a couple of squads, how times change indeed! It was nice to read about the missions as well, I often forget how cool 2nd edition objectives were, secretly drawn mission cards with differing objectives. Todays games are a bit predictable (big fight around the objectives or big fight in the middle). In fact I might dig out my old cards and try it in my next game if they don't include it in 6th!

Thanks for the memories!

Memnon

Lantern
12-06-2012, 22:23
I remember that book well. My favourite battle was one of Space Wolves versus Eldar, the best moment if which was when the Eldar player cast Eldritch Storm INSIDE a bunker full of marines. Normally, the marines would be pushed aside by the spell, but as they were in a bunker, they were effectively pinned against the buildings inner walls - genius, and an example of how fun the game can be when played to its original intention, an enjoyable past time among friends. I should also add, my favourite battles always involved Jervis and Andy Chambers, they were just always enjoyable reads.

Loopstah
12-06-2012, 22:50
I remember buying that when it came out. Makes me feel old. Secret mission objectives were a load of fun.

Scaryscarymushroom
12-06-2012, 23:18
On to the battle; the missions were Dawn Raid for the Marines (get a squad or vehicle into the enemy's deployment zone) and Assassinate for the Orks (kill the enemy commander). Since there were no bunkers, it was a standard 4-turn game.


The objectives sound like Malifaux! :eek:

I love a lot of the old rules supplements and batreps. 2nd edition is a little before my time, but I have some of the codices and there are some really interesting illustrations in there. One of my favorite pictures from the Space Wolves codex was a pic of Warboss Ghazghkull Thraka. Another ork in the picture is dressed in military fatigues! As if he were a big green guardsman!

AndrewGPaul
13-06-2012, 00:30
Probably a Blood Axe Nob or warboss.

IIRC, the missions were:

Engage and Destroy - kill things.
Dawn Raid - get into the enemy's deployment zone.
Take and Hold - hold an objective in the centre of the table
The Assassins - kill the enemy commander.

Dark Millennium added two more:
Guerilla War! - kill models in hand to hand combat. Secondary mission - destroy or disable enemy vehicles in your deployment zone.
Witch Hunt - as per The Assassins, only with the enemy's most powerful psyker. Secondary mission - take out the enemy's characters.

And there were the two Bunker assault missions, which had one side defending the bunkers while the enemy had to capture or destroy them. These missions increased the turn limit by 2 turns.

Codex: Tyranids had three special missions for the Tyranids;
Terrorise - force the enemy to fail morale checks. Secondary mission - kill their characters.
The Trap - have Tyranid units between enemy units and their board edge at the end of the game. In this mission, Tyranid models will randomly deploy on their side of the board or on either flank. In addition, they may begin the game hidden and on overwatch.
Tyranid Attack - annihilate the enemy completely in six turns. Destroyed Tyranid models may re-enter the battle as new broods. Effectively the Tyranid player has infinite resources. If the enemy have any models at all left alive at the end of the game, they win.

Inquisitor D'selinas
13-06-2012, 02:22
Great thread!
Just for the sake of completeness there was also the very last mission card, High Ground, from White Dwarf 194 (or 193 can't remember). Basically you were charged with capturing the three highest points on the battlefield with bonus victory points awarded if it were done with troopers armed with heavy weapons.

But going back to the original post, you're describing the Angels of Death battle report which also appeared in White Dwarf 166, my first ever issue! It has always had a place in my nerdy heart as it was in many ways responsible for me getting involved in the hobby and staying with it still some nineteen years later.

A couple of years back my gaming group made the decision to dump the gloominess of 5th Ed and return to the light of 2nd edition, and we've never regretted it.

Angelwing
13-06-2012, 04:23
Good book that. I have er, 4 of those battle bunkers....
I have all the mission cards from WD, dark millennium and boxset. I might bring those out again. Just substitute the old 'VP' for current 'KP' and off we go!

DeviantApostle
13-06-2012, 04:43
I remember an old 2e batrep where a Librarian won the game by teleporting 48" across the board after the rest of the Space Marines were nearly wiped out. Can you imagine the rage if that were possible now?

ChaplainCharlie
13-06-2012, 05:45
Yes, the rage if a unit had a 30" move that was unstoppable unless the models were tied to combat. Or a 36" move also unstoppable unless immobilized...

The rage if that was commonplace and could be used to capture objectives on the last turn and win games...

Abaraxas
13-06-2012, 06:39
The Tycho bat rep was in the first WD I ever got...the "battles" compilation is the one 2nd ed book I dont have :(

Banville
13-06-2012, 08:13
Wasn't there a "Hold the Line" mission, too? Your units were deployed in a corridor across the middle of the table and your opponent got points for getting their units off the other board edge?

You had to include bunkers and the like in the central portion.

Those old missions rocked. Funny how a mechanic as simple as having players fight for their own secret objective can completely change the game - for the better in my opinion!

AndrewGPaul
13-06-2012, 10:15
Yes, I mentioned that one;

"And there were the two Bunker assault missions, which had one side defending the bunkers while the enemy had to capture or destroy them. These missions increased the turn limit by 2 turns."

I just didn't have access to the card to check the names.

The missions weren't secret, though. They were chosen at random, but revealed before the game began.

ChaplainCharlie, the psychic power DevianApostle mentions could always be nullified - even if the opponent had no psykers, IIRC.

DeviantApostle
13-06-2012, 11:30
Yes, the rage if a unit had a 30" move that was unstoppable unless the models were tied to combat. Or a 36" move also unstoppable unless immobilized...

The rage if that was commonplace and could be used to capture objectives on the last turn and win games...

LOL good one.

36" isn't 48" and it takes a skimmer to do that, which is quite a bit easeir to get line of sight shoot and, in many cases, kill compared to a single character (remembering back then, Terminators were on 25mm bases). Also, you can stop a last minute contest, all models have to stop an inch away from other models so it's possible to block. I'd also note that random game length goes a ways to preventing this type of win. Anything that isn't a skimmer that can do that is fairly random, which is a nice balancer.

You could nullify a Psyker in 2e, which was why you took a Level 4. The problem then became character proliferation and 'cheap wins' which happened a bit more often than they do in 5e. You know how everyone is yelling about tanks and MSU now? Back then it was cries of 'characterhammer' and, amusingly, the desire to see more of your bog standard troops on the table.

Don't get me wrong, 2e was and remains a great game, I have tons of fond memories. Heck, I still have my old DA beakies around here somewhere. I really miss universal wargear. But sometimes it was crazy and it did have problems. Nice to look back on all that with 6e on the way... the more things change...

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-06-2012, 11:56
Back then it was cries of 'characterhammer' and, amusingly, the desire to see more of your bog standard troops on the table.


I think the ironic thing is that modern characters generally will kill way more enemy models than their 2nd counterparts did. At least if you were smart about it.

It does bring back fond memories. I had a lot of fun playing 2nd and I'm still tempted to teach my fiancée to play it, but we will probably stick to playing Infinity.

Edit: It must be one of the only 2nd books I don't have at least one copy off. Kind a makes me want to get it now. It's fun seeing the origins of a lot of modern stuff, like special characters (or the WS4/BS2 of Orks!, anyone remember that battle report?) and frankly I liked the scale of things much better then.

Sheena Easton
13-06-2012, 12:26
One of many classic battle reports. The games between Andy and Jervis were always a great read. I believe Jervis lost all but one!

I loved that the battles printed in White Dwarf in those days were used to enrich the background, usually by making special characters from models that died in turn 2 such as Tycho and Azhag (who died to a Knights Panther Champion - in rage a heavily wounded Skullmuncha ripped the head off the Bright Wizard before the horses kicked it to death...)

My favourite 2nd Ed battle report was the Tyranid Attack vs Eldar & IG


I remember an old 2e batrep where a Librarian won the game by teleporting 48" across the board after the rest of the Space Marines were nearly wiped out. Can you imagine the rage if that were possible now?

I don't remember that one, but I do remember one where the Librarian tried a similar trick with the Gateway power but had to move within range.... and got subsequently reduced to a messy stain by the overwatching Deathskulls and Snakebites :skull:

RTB01
13-06-2012, 12:36
The fact that Tycho got zapped by the weirdboy and this worked into fluff is fantastic - along with classic things like the Piscina V campaign - not enough of this happens anymore in my opinion. Too much focus on spam and winning - unless that's just the forums?...

Toadius80
13-06-2012, 16:37
I have many fond memories of 2nd :-)
A updated version that works with current codexes would be great. The rules where more fun back then.

A note about modern characters being able to kill more now. Your joking right? A quick example, assassins. Vindicar had 2 shots per turn, evisor was pure evil, had a hefty number of attacks and added additional 1 attack per wound caused in previous turn. Guns had more shots. Plasma pistols for example between 0-3 per turn and assault cannons 0-9 shots!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-06-2012, 17:23
A note about modern characters being able to kill more now. Your joking right? A quick example, assassins. Vindicar had 2 shots per turn, evisor was pure evil, had a hefty number of attacks and added additional 1 attack per wound caused in previous turn. Guns had more shots. Plasma pistols for example between 0-3 per turn and assault cannons 0-9 shots!


Not really. Because close combat worked differently. Since you can only kill models you were in base contact with the odds of seeing characters slaughter hordes of troops every turn was pretty slim. Now, they would often make a very messy stain of any grunt they were fighting but once you have killed the model once the rest doesn't really matter. How many models does combat characters routinely kill these days? For most it's a bad round if they don't kill a small handful.
Characters were good, but there were so many destructive things in 2nd. And as you said, many guns were vastly more powerful than they are today so despite the multiple saves (improved after you were only allowed one field save) chewing up characters at range was far from impossible.

I don't think you could make a version of 2nd that would work with current lists, at least not without a huge rewrite and at that point you might as well not bother trying and just use the old lists and write new rules for any additions.

Inquisitor D'selinas
13-06-2012, 17:36
I have many fond memories of 2nd :-)
A updated version that works with current codexes would be great. The rules where more fun back then.

A note about modern characters being able to kill more now. Your joking right? A quick example, assassins. Vindicar had 2 shots per turn, evisor was pure evil, had a hefty number of attacks and added additional 1 attack per wound caused in previous turn. Guns had more shots. Plasma pistols for example between 0-3 per turn and assault cannons 0-9 shots!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Well, first off the whilst the Vindicare did have two shots per turn, his weapon wasn't powerful enough to drop even an Imperial Guard Colonel in one hit, you needed to use his special ammo and he only had one each of them per battle.
As for the Eversor, he had a maximum of five attacks and, as with everything else in 2nd Ed, could only kill what was in base contact. Unlike the modern game where characters can slaughter whole units despite being in base contact with one model. He did gain +1WS per opponent if he faced multiple attackers.
Don't get me wrong the Assassins where deadly opponents but hardly the invincible bogeymen people made them out to be.

As for guns having more shots, even the humble lasgun has the ability to fire twice in 5th, it's 2nd Ed counterpart could only ever fire once, and today's Imperial Guard can take a twenty shot Punisher Cannon!

The Decayed
13-06-2012, 17:55
Cool thread, I only found out about GW just when 3rd edition 40K had just been freshly released, so missed this stuff.
Thanks for your nostalgic moments, I copy-pasted the mission summaries in here, saved them in a word file for reference when planning my next game of 40k :D.

Toadius80
13-06-2012, 22:59
So your obviously also forgetting sweeping advance ;-)
The evisor wasn't limited to max 5 attacks either.
The Vindicar wasn't much cop at killing characters, unless it was shield breaker to destroy any inv save then turbo penetrator. Admittedly iirc that was a max of 3 wounds with both shots. But that wasn't what made him great, it was hit picking out and killing the sergeant and special/heavy from units ;-)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Inquisitor D'selinas
14-06-2012, 00:44
So your obviously also forgetting sweeping advance ;-)
The evisor wasn't limited to max 5 attacks either.
The Vindicar wasn't much cop at killing characters, unless it was shield breaker to destroy any inv save then turbo penetrator. Admittedly iirc that was a max of 3 wounds with both shots. But that wasn't what made him great, it was hit picking out and killing the sergeant and special/heavy from units ;-)

I'm afraid you are incorrect about the Eversor's attacks. I have Codex: Assassins open next to me and there is no provision to increase it's attacks above five, his four base attacks plus an additional one for having two close combat weapons.

Toadius80
14-06-2012, 01:11
Hmm. Maybe its my old brain getting muddled then as I'm sure its otherwise and what with my old assassins codexes packed away someplace and you having yours out I'll concede.
One thing I remember for sure was a basic guardsmen couldn't scratch mephiston ;-)

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Inquisitor D'selinas
14-06-2012, 02:10
Hmm. Maybe its my old brain getting muddled then as I'm sure its otherwise and what with my old assassins codexes packed away someplace and you having yours out I'll concede.
One thing I remember for sure was a basic guardsmen couldn't scratch mephiston ;-)

No worries friend :) My group plays 2nd Ed exclusively, so the rules are never far from hand.
Agree with you about Mephiston, and the same could be said about a lot of the special characters, part of why we hardly use them. It's also why my Guardsmen don't bring swords but lots of lascannons in case they did show up ;)
And there was always that possibility of an upset, which is how three of my Gretchin took out a shielded Imperial Guard Colonel with one volley of their blunderbuss! Orks are so much more fun to use with the 2nd Ed book.

Grampyseer
14-06-2012, 03:04
I have crazy fond memories of the old shokk attack gun.

I also remember a runtherd and pain boy using a grabby stick and syringe , respectively, to capture a live Hivetyrant.

That was the kind of stuff that made the games fun.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-06-2012, 07:58
One thing I remember for sure was a basic guardsmen couldn't scratch mephiston ;-)


True, fighting much more proficient models was even more uphil than it is at the moment, but do grunts really have good odds against the likes of Mephiston in todays game?

Bloodknight
14-06-2012, 09:35
As for the Eversor, he had a maximum of five attacks and, as with everything else in 2nd Ed, could only kill what was in base contact. Unlike the modern game where characters can slaughter whole units despite being in base contact with one model.

And you don't have to pile in. A squad of Guardsmen can easily keep Abaddon occupied for the whole game as long as they don't break. When the defending units were down to one or two guys guy I tended to just shoot into the melee with assault cannons from my Sentinels.


The evisor wasn't limited to max 5 attacks either.

Even if he wasn't, thanks to the fumbles+critical hits rule it's best not to have too many attacks, since you only need one 1 per fumble, but only the 2nd 6 gives you a critical hit. So with more attacks you're basically raising the chance to fumble a lot. I've seen Bloodthirsters fumbling themselves to death way more often than scoring a million extra hits.


So your obviously also forgetting sweeping advance

Did 2nd edition even have that, as in killing everybody who broke?


Orks are so much more fun to use with the 2nd Ed book.

Yeah, unless the Ork player is a jerk and spends 500 points on Pulsa Rokkitz.

(That said, I used to have a jump pack equipped commissar with a grenade card to retaliate. At the time we didn't build all-comers lists, so against Orks he used to carry a virus grenade which I offered to change into rad grenades if it wasn't the "I flatten your army for 3 turns and shoot you to crap Ork army" ;)).

BigBarryJazz
14-06-2012, 10:05
(That said, I used to have a jump pack equipped commissar with a grenade card to retaliate. At the time we didn't build all-comers lists, so against Orks he used to carry a virus grenade which I offered to change into rad grenades if it wasn't the "I flatten your army for 3 turns and shoot you to crap Ork army" ;)).

Surely the mandatory medi-squig made that virus grenade useless? Presumably you must have ripped up the virus outbreak card if he wasn't habitually including it.

Skopey
14-06-2012, 10:16
Loved 2nd edition :D 3rd was to big a change for me and have retired my IG and marines since. Will see if 6th can tease me into bringing my IG out of retirement. I loved 2nd. i recently found my copy of the dark millenium rule book with the Squats they never got round to releasing sadly. They looked like they would have been a nice little army. On the old rules i think the Strategy cards were a nice touch like the Mission objectives. Much like the Magic item, Play cards, random events in Blood bowl. This thread has actually kinda convinced me to see if any friends fancy a game of 2nd Edition if i can find all the Psyker cards, wargear etc.:) Btw didnt the Codex assassins have a special Assassin vs an army scenario in the back? or was that a white dwarf article or just something my group of friends made up back in the day. I'd check myself but i have no idea where my codex assassins is. If i even have it anymore.

Memnos
14-06-2012, 10:16
LOL good one.

36" isn't 48" and it takes a skimmer to do that, which is quite a bit easeir to get line of sight shoot and, in many cases, kill compared to a single character (remembering back then, Terminators were on 25mm bases). Also, you can stop a last minute contest, all models have to stop an inch away from other models so it's possible to block. I'd also note that random game length goes a ways to preventing this type of win. Anything that isn't a skimmer that can do that is fairly random, which is a nice balancer.

You could nullify a Psyker in 2e, which was why you took a Level 4. The problem then became character proliferation and 'cheap wins' which happened a bit more often than they do in 5e. You know how everyone is yelling about tanks and MSU now? Back then it was cries of 'characterhammer' and, amusingly, the desire to see more of your bog standard troops on the table.

Don't get me wrong, 2e was and remains a great game, I have tons of fond memories. Heck, I still have my old DA beakies around here somewhere. I really miss universal wargear. But sometimes it was crazy and it did have problems. Nice to look back on all that with 6e on the way... the more things change...

Whoah! We had a REALLY different metagame where we came from.

I had so many heavy weapons doing things like -6 saves and 2d6 damage that characters rarely survived the second turn and often died first turn.

First turn: Wipe out unit around character. If heavy weapons are left, fire at character and kill him.
Second turn: The real combat begins.

I can't remember a special character surviving an entire battle during all of 2nd edition. Ever. I've seen Ahriman get sat on by a Dreadnought that stumbled randomly in to him and killed him(You only got an initiative check out of deliberate attempts to ram. Out of control vehicles got no initiative check to avoid). I've seen more Blood Angel special characters than there are marines in a chapter get killed by lascannon fire and the number of super-cheap Commisars on bikes with Vortex grenades I've seen take out unkillable Supercharacters would probably choke a whale.

2nd edition was the game of anti-characters. Between stasis grenades, vortex grenades and heavy weapons, which everyone always took a plethora of, I just am really surprised that ANYone would call it a character focused game.

EDIT: And my favorite Orky tactic: Run a Skorcha up 10 inches away from the unit you wanted to kill. Make a 1-2 degree turn. Test. If you passed, do it again. Test again. If you passed, repeat. Keep doing so until you fail, fly out of control 3d6 inches. If you go 45 degrees left or right, you're still probably going to hit the unit. Then do a S5, -2 armor save to everyone there and then set them on fire so they run around. Second edition was crazy and funny and unbalanced, but it wasn't the characters.

Skopey
14-06-2012, 10:18
P.S how much did The graviton gun, and all the various special grendades (vortex, rad, stasis) **** you and your friends off XD Loved hitting my mates Avatar with a stasis grenade XD

Born Again
14-06-2012, 10:35
I was just looking through this book the other day. There was some good, fun stuff in 2nd edition, but on the whole I'm glad we moved on. It really was a bit of a nightmare to play bigger games, although I admit some of the goings-on, especially those centered around the psychic phase, or weirder types of weapons, were amusing.

One thing I noted as I went through my 2nd edition stuff was according to the original Rhino datafax from the boxed game, not only could it transport 5 terminators, but A DREADNOUGHT!


I remember an old 2e batrep where a Librarian won the game by teleporting 48" across the board after the rest of the Space Marines were nearly wiped out. Can you imagine the rage if that were possible now?

I have had a weirdboy, attached to my main, large squad of boyz teleport the unit on the first turn, Deep Strike mishap resulting in my opponent placing them, end up in the furthest possible corner of the board, and spend the rest of the game rolling 1's for their run move and the weirdboy rolling Warpath every turn, until the last turn of the game when he again teleported them, this time bang on target by an objective and turning it from outright defeat to a draw. A little less reliable than a Librarian, but fun to see a mob of orks save me from a loss without ever getting a single shot or choppa swing off the whole game :D

Bloodknight
14-06-2012, 10:46
Presumably you must have ripped up the virus outbreak card if he wasn't habitually including it.

We took that card out of the deck after a turn one army kill via Virus outbreak on the left flank and virus grenade on the right flank, followed by a mediocre shooting phase from my IG.

demidemigodlike
14-06-2012, 11:37
The trouble was the tremendous amount of power gaming the rules allowed:
I will give my assassin terminator armour displacer field and combat drugs.
I will give my Chaos Lord a demon weapon, displacer field, mark and collar of Korne.
I will give my swooping hawk exarch a vortex grenade.
I will give my warp spider exarch a bright lance
I will give my howling banshee exarch combat drugs, turn aside blow, and combat drugs
I will give my dark reaper exarch (missile launcher) fast shot, power field, camelion and steath (-3 to hit in the open!)
I will give my carnifex regenerate

Which was stupid as all you had to do was avoid the characterhammers in question as they were just massive points synchs/bullet magnets for what they could do.

demidemigodlike
14-06-2012, 11:47
If they got rid of the wargear cards would that have stopped the characters dominating?

But then we would have had to rely on "tatics". In a wargame! What madness is this?

Johnnya10
14-06-2012, 12:03
OP - That was the very first Battle Report I ever read and it's quite responsible for me getting hooked all those years ago. Thanks for bringing it to my attention again! Ah, they don't do 'em like that anymore...

Although the forces were very odd by today's standards, I used to really look forward to reading those old school battle reports every month. They were my favourite bit about White Dwarf way back when. They were always at the back after Mike McVey's painting tips and all the other articles, just before the catalogue pages that were full of all the really old-school lead stuff. Memories...

Inquisitor D'selinas
14-06-2012, 12:19
If they got rid of the wargear cards would that have stopped the characters dominating?

But then we would have had to rely on "tatics". In a wargame! What madness is this?

Characters did not dominate the game, and if they did where you played, then you were playing the game wrong.

Memon above sums it up best
2nd edition was the game of anti-characters. Between stasis grenades, vortex grenades and heavy weapons, which everyone always took a plethora of, I just am really surprised that ANYone would call it a character focused game

PostinDirty
14-06-2012, 12:44
Even if he wasn't, thanks to the fumbles+critical hits rule it's best not to have too many attacks, since you only need one 1 per fumble, but only the 2nd 6 gives you a critical hit. So with more attacks you're basically raising the chance to fumble a lot. I've seen Bloodthirsters fumbling themselves to death way more often than scoring a million extra hits.

huh. I'm certain it was all subsequent 6s rolled after the 1st that gave you +1 to your score, so more attacks had positives. In any case, the eversor had those nifty drugs that allowed him to use his follow-up move to engage another model and start hacking into them, so you potentially could munch your way through a unit like that.

My fav assassin was the bog-standard one you got from the imperial agents list; with a power fist, a sword for the parry, and combat drugs to double his attacks, movement and initiative :)

Memnos
14-06-2012, 12:46
If they got rid of the wargear cards would that have stopped the characters dominating?

But then we would have had to rely on "tatics". In a wargame! What madness is this?

Every super character was a Vortex grenade away from being gone with no roll. Or a stasis grenade. The more points you invested in to a single model, the more likely it was to disappear in to that inevitable vortex grenade. Even the much vaunted displacer field with the 3+ field save was totally irrelevant when you had 30 Blood Axe Kommandos with Krak grenades pop out of Infiltrate and throw 'em at you. "Okay. Make 15 3+ saves. If you fail any, take d6 wounds. What? You only have 3? Better hope you pass all 15 as all these saves are simultaneous, baby."

The numbers were just against you when someone could afford a whole squad of crap soldiers with krak grenades for your one guy.

demidemigodlike
14-06-2012, 13:02
[QUOTE=Inquisitor D'selinas;6269073]Characters did not dominate the game, and if they did where you played, then you were playing the game wrong.

Oh look there is a massive huge thing that could easily kill me if I enganged it. It will be very very difficult kill should I:

a.) Avoid it, take out the other units, this should be easy since the thing cost a lot of points and their model count is therefore low.
b.) tie it up with a cheap unit, this allows me to engage the enemy on my terms. I can come back to it later.
c.) focus all fire! charge! attack! It must die no matter the cost.

Unfortunetly we mostly chose c.

We were playing the game wrong. Sometimes I still do (damn you Swarm lord / Abbadon you are not faster than my troops why don't I leave you alone? Is your death really better than victory?).

williamsond
14-06-2012, 13:20
Bah if you want real nostalga think back to rogue rtader where you bought rolls on equipment tables for characters i still have fond memories of my space marine captain on hover board with D-cannon and Rad suit.

Inquisitor D'selinas
14-06-2012, 13:56
The battle report in the OP and many of the other battle reports up to about White Dwarf 215, demonstrated time and again how the rules system could develop a fun and interesting story as the game went on. Even in a bog standard 1500 point pitched battle.
I've played every version of 40k and in my experience the game as it stands today is grey and dull. It's lost the mad spark that made 40k what is was back then, all due to the mad dash to shovel more models onto the table the game and to appease a vocal minority of tournament players who demand more balance and thus blandness. And as a result it has lost it's character.

PointBlank
14-06-2012, 15:16
The battle report in the OP and many of the other battle reports up to about White Dwarf 215, demonstrated time and again how the rules system could develop a fun and interesting story as the game went on. Even in a bog standard 1500 point pitched battle.
I've played every version of 40k and in my experience the game as it stands today is grey and dull. It's lost the mad spark that made 40k what is was back then, all due to the mad dash to shovel more models onto the table the game and to appease a vocal minority of tournament players who demand more balance and thus blandness. And as a result it has lost it's character.

I have been in the hobby since 1990 and I agree with this sentiment 100%.

AndrewGPaul
14-06-2012, 15:29
The important thing about the battle reports, as Inquisitor D'selinas mentions, is that everyone talking about super-characters here or dubious tactics there is missing the point. You can play like that, but you don't have to, and it would appear that the designers certainly didn't. You only needed to tool up on characters - or anti-character characters - if the other guy does, so if you have a gentleman's agreement to refrain from such silliness, there's no problem.

Born Again
14-06-2012, 15:32
Every super character was a Vortex grenade away from being gone with no roll. Or a stasis grenade. The more points you invested in to a single model, the more likely it was to disappear in to that inevitable vortex grenade. Even the much vaunted displacer field with the 3+ field save was totally irrelevant when you had 30 Blood Axe Kommandos with Krak grenades pop out of Infiltrate and throw 'em at you. "Okay. Make 15 3+ saves. If you fail any, take d6 wounds. What? You only have 3? Better hope you pass all 15 as all these saves are simultaneous, baby."

The numbers were just against you when someone could afford a whole squad of crap soldiers with krak grenades for your one guy.

When people now complain about grenades being used in an assault rather than being thrown, I wonder if they remember the days of a tactical squad being more dangerous due to its frag grenades than its bolters... sure it was short ranged with a risk of scatter but it was more blast markers than you sometimes get in entire armies these days. Very nasty against lightly armoured hordes.


The battle report in the OP and many of the other battle reports up to about White Dwarf 215, demonstrated time and again how the rules system could develop a fun and interesting story as the game went on. Even in a bog standard 1500 point pitched battle.
I've played every version of 40k and in my experience the game as it stands today is grey and dull. It's lost the mad spark that made 40k what is was back then, all due to the mad dash to shovel more models onto the table the game and to appease a vocal minority of tournament players who demand more balance and thus blandness. And as a result it has lost it's character.

I disagree here, I have played all except first, but I think 5th is the best edition so far, the key is just finding the right people with the same mindset as you, and being willing to keep some of that 'mad spark'. Sometimes you have to shift or alter the rules a little for a crazy situation as it pops up and have some fun with it, but the basics of what we have to work with a the smoothest, whilst retaining a good level of depth (3rd ran smoothly, but was far too stripped back). It's a good mix and a great starting point if you and your opponent are both willing to run with it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-06-2012, 17:04
I've played every version of 40k and in my experience the game as it stands today is grey and dull. It's lost the mad spark that made 40k what is was back then, all due to the mad dash to shovel more models onto the table the game and to appease a vocal minority of tournament players who demand more balance and thus blandness. And as a result it has lost it's character.

I don't think balance have to mean blandness. If you have a sufficiently robust core rule set than you can archive both. I do however agree that the desire to play larger and large games have changed the nature/feel of it. Whatever you enjoy that or not depends on what you are looking for I think. It's not really for me, but if you want company sized battles in 40k scale I suppose it works out fine.

Inquisitor D'selinas
14-06-2012, 17:37
I don't think balance have to mean blandness. If you have a sufficiently robust core rule set than you can archive both. I do however agree that the desire to play larger and large games have changed the nature/feel of it. Whatever you enjoy that or not depends on what you are looking for I think. It's not really for me, but if you want company sized battles in 40k scale I suppose it works out fine.

There is such a rule set and it is called 2nd Ed :D:p
It's due to my cynical nature I have to question whether it was a player driven desire to play bigger games that brought in the sweeping simplifications of 3rd Edition or whether it was a shareholders desire to sell more miniatures ;)
Look at Warhammer 8th edition, the size of armies has increased hugely as players scramble to get horde and steadfast bonuses on as many regiments as possible. The trend will continue with 6th Ed 40k adding in aircraft and ever bigger models.
It's one of the reasons we decided to go back to 2nd Ed for our 40k games, its much cheaper to build a 1500 point army, even buying direct from GW (which we don't)

Grimbad
14-06-2012, 22:09
There is such a rule set and it is called 2nd Ed :D:p

I love second edition, but I don't pretend it's balanced. Just far more fun, interesting, tactical, visceral, personal, cinematic and generally thrilling.

Also, I liked that the discussion of powerful characters focused on the named temple assassins. That's the point of temple assassins. They don't really live up to it in current 40k, but they're supposed to be the greatest individual killers in a galaxy of trillions. They're meant to be able to kill any warrior in the Imperium, should need arise. They should be that powerful. And they should have a points cost to match. Which they do.

The White Dwarf Battles book is one of the few 2e books I'm missing at the moment. I saw it once a few years ago before I started actually gathering 2e books, passed it up to buy Imperialis instead because I'd heard of that one. It has Adeptus Arbites in it? As in a full army, not just the Imperial Agents skeleton list?

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-06-2012, 22:38
I don't think it's a full army, I think it's a squad entry and that's about it.

AndrewGPaul
14-06-2012, 23:28
I love second edition, but I don't pretend it's balanced. Just far more fun, interesting, tactical, visceral, personal, cinematic and generally thrilling.

Also, I liked that the discussion of powerful characters focused on the named temple assassins. That's the point of temple assassins. They don't really live up to it in current 40k, but they're supposed to be the greatest individual killers in a galaxy of trillions. They're meant to be able to kill any warrior in the Imperium, should need arise. They should be that powerful. And they should have a points cost to match. Which they do.

And they don't really fit well onto a battlefield, in my opinion. Still, the mission in one of the Assassins codex books was interesting; an entire army against a single Assassin.

Ah, found it. 3rd edition, as it turns out (for my money, most of the interesting, "experimental" stuff happened in 3rd edition, not 2nd. Pity that wasn't what the players wanted).

A single Vindicare Assassin versus 750 - 1,000 points of enemy troops. The Assassin is not deployed on the board at all; instead, the Assassin player makes a mental note of where the Assassin is hidden, and whenever he moves, takes a shot or checks LOS, the enemy player must turn away. If the enemy end a turn within 2" of the Assassin they discover his location and he's placed on the board.

Inquisitor D'selinas
15-06-2012, 02:11
Ah, found it. 3rd edition, as it turns out (for my money, most of the interesting, "experimental" stuff happened in 3rd edition, not 2nd. Pity that wasn't what the players wanted).

I always thought that was due to the main rules being so dull that they'd try anything to bring a spark of excitement to it. :D
Most of what I can remember was already done in 2nd Ed right? Genestealer and Chaos Cultist lists, expanded psychic powers, vehicle design rules, though I stand to be corrected:)

AndrewGPaul
15-06-2012, 08:22
There were no vehicle design rules in 2nd edition. One table in Dark Millennium with points costs for swapping weapons on Imperial vehicles doesn't count. As for alternative army lists, you had the Genestealer Cult in Codex: Imperial Guard and Chaos Cultists and Daemons in Codex: Chaos. 3rd edition gave you the Index Astartes series, Codex: Cityfight, Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon, Codex: Craftworld Eldar, Codex: Catachans, rules for Deathwatch and other specialist units and formations and the like. 3rd edition also had a much more varied and interesting set of missions than anything that came before or since.

I quite like the current 3rd/4th/5th edition rules (although the presentation of the Codex books in early 3rd edition was a mistake). 2nd edition is better for small platoon-level games, while the current rules are better for larger company-level games. Apparently that's what the player base wanted, so that's what they got.

Banville
15-06-2012, 09:25
All this nostalgia has me almost weeping. Ireland's 4-0 drubbing last night had me actually weeping.

Anyhooo, I think somebody mentioned it already but my favourite battle report of all time was the nids vs Eldar and IG battle. What an brilliant game that seemed to be. I think a Leman Russ was knocked out of action for the whole first turn because a little nid had burst out of one of the crew's chests.

I would love if 6th Edition broght back differing move characteristics. It really alters how every army plays. And modifiers for saves and bs were fantastic. They added so much more depth to the game.

demidemigodlike
15-06-2012, 10:41
All this nostalgia has me almost weeping. Ireland's 4-0 drubbing last night had me actually weeping.

Anyhooo, I think somebody mentioned it already but my favourite battle report of all time was the nids vs Eldar and IG battle. What an brilliant game that seemed to be. I think a Leman Russ was knocked out of action for the whole first turn because a little nid had burst out of one of the crew's chests.

I would love if 6th Edition broght back differing move characteristics. It really alters how every army plays. And modifiers for saves and bs were fantastic. They added so much more depth to the game.

I agree. Although I aloways wondered why he eldar player did not take an Avatar in that battle. Tyranids had difficulty killing him, they were the only army that did! Especially with the the scream power.

Then I relaised they could not have a codex released and have that army loose.

I do think the save modifiers were nice, unless your oppnent was lucky withhis terminators!

Banville
15-06-2012, 12:08
3+ on 2d6 was a Terminator's save wasn't it? The cool thing about the save modifiers was that this was often reduced to 8+ on 2d6. Even bolters and lasguns reduced the save slightly, didn't they?

Inquisitor D'selinas
15-06-2012, 12:12
3+ on 2d6 was a Terminator's save wasn't it? The cool thing about the save modifiers was that this was often reduced to 8+ on 2d6. Even bolters and lasguns reduced the save slightly, didn't they?

It was my experience that you could hit them with every Str9 -6 save modifier weapon you could get your hands on and they would save against the lot. But fire some Str3 -1 save modifier lasguns at them and they drop like flies lol

AndrewGPaul
15-06-2012, 12:45
Case in point; I remember one game where a War Walker mounting two scatter lasers fired them both - 12 shots - at a Terminator, who passed every save. In frustration, the pilot fired his laspistol at the Terminator, who promptly died. :D

Bloodknight
15-06-2012, 13:17
huh. I'm certain it was all subsequent 6s rolled after the 1st that gave you +1 to your score, so more attacks had positives.

Yeah, but every 1, starting with the 1st one was a fumble, so you had to roll at least 2 more 6es than 1s to get anything out of it :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-06-2012, 17:46
you had the Genestealer Cult in Codex: Imperial Guard

It was in the Tyranid codex, not the Imperial Guard one. The Tyranid book also had some really cool effects and special missions to keep up the theme and feel of the Nids as well. Shame that Strategy Cards haven't really featured in 40k since (Apocalypse doesn't, IMO, count).

I liked the addition of books like Cityfight and Catachans (Although I think it would have been much better as a generic Jungle/Deathworld book), but other books like the Craftworld codex was awful. But then I dislike the hyper specialised spam way of "theming" 40k armies that seems to be what people want so...

Inquisitor D'selinas
15-06-2012, 18:41
Shame that Strategy Cards haven't really featured in 40k since (Apocalypse doesn't, IMO, count).

It could be argued that a lot of the more tactically useful cards were re-introduced in 5th Ed in the rules for reserves, outflanking and scout moves. All of which have equivalent Strategy cards in 2nd Ed. And of course you can now perform the same actions as the Bombing Run and Strafing Run cards today, only you now need a £30 plastic flyer kit rather than a card;)

Gosh I am being awfully cynical this week:D

Kisanis
15-06-2012, 18:45
Oh look there is a massive huge thing that could easily kill me if I enganged it. It will be very very difficult kill should I:

a.) Avoid it, take out the other units, this should be easy since the thing cost a lot of points and their model count is therefore low.
b.) tie it up with a cheap unit, this allows me to engage the enemy on my terms. I can come back to it later.
c.) focus all fire! charge! attack! It must die no matter the cost.

Unfortunetly we mostly chose c.



I do a/b when playing with my IG.

I started in 3rd edition with 40k, but 5th edition fantasy (40k had been out for a few months). One of my best friends started in 2nd a few years before me (before we met) and we decided to go and play IG vs. Dark angels so I could try 2nd out. First of all I loved it. Second of all, i realized that it tempted me into 5th edition fantasy herohammer... once. After my first game I went tank spam with artillery strikes and lots of mobile infantry (Whats that, breaking infantry away from their heavy weapons? thank god!).

2nd forced tactics. If you tried power character spam you just lost out to vortex grenades and the like. You could not rely on a single unit winning for you, you had to have a plan a,b,c,d, etc...


I think the thing with 2nd we all forget is that it was for all intents and purposes, pre-interenet. We didn't have forums where power lists were hammered out, we had WD to kinda keep us all in the loop of goings on, but it really focused in on the local meta where you played.

That said, I like 5th, but I think just a handful of things could make it interesting... like save/to hit modifiers... Something this simple would make a world of tactical changes for the better.

Abaraxas
17-06-2012, 11:16
As a 2nd player from then and now, the amount of misinformation spread around forums about it (herohammer for example) is ridiculous.

Inquisitor D'selinas
17-06-2012, 13:53
As a 2nd player from then and now, the amount of misinformation spread around forums about it (herohammer for example) is ridiculous.

↑↑↑↑ This so very much.
If you believe the forums 2nd Ed was played with stat line full of tens super characters along side Wolf Guard Terminators each armed with a cyclone missile launcher and assault cannons fighting against Assassins with polymorphine on a bike, wearing Terminator armour with six lascannons on each arm whilst juggling six vortex grenades.

What really grinds my gears about this is that most of this misinformation comes from those who claim to have played at the time:rolleyes:

RandomThoughts
17-06-2012, 14:30
I've played every version of 40k and in my experience the game as it stands today is grey and dull. It's lost the mad spark that made 40k what is was back then, all due to the mad dash to shovel more models onto the table the game and to appease a vocal minority of tournament players who demand more balance and thus blandness. And as a result it has lost it's character.

Balance and blandness are not mutually tied. Take warmachine, a lot closer to 2nd ed 40K than the current 40K if you ask me (to hit modifiers for cover, for instance), and personally I find it more balanced and quite a bit more flavorous.


I would love if 6th Edition broght back differing move characteristics. It really alters how every army plays. And modifiers for saves and bs were fantastic. They added so much more depth to the game.

Amen, brother. Amen!

Angelwing
18-06-2012, 16:16
If you believe the forums 2nd Ed was played with stat line full of tens super characters along side Wolf Guard Terminators each armed with a cyclone missile launcher and assault cannons fighting against Assassins with polymorphine on a bike, wearing Terminator armour with six lascannons on each arm whilst juggling six vortex grenades.


Clearly sir, you have never had to run a massive bring and battle childrens Saturday game in a GW store. :p :cries: That was hard work and you couldn't keep track of characters wargear, the sort of wargear that just so happened to be in the right place at the right time... :shifty:

Sheena Easton
18-06-2012, 17:07
And there was always that possibility of an upset, which is how three of my Gretchin took out a shielded Imperial Guard Colonel with one volley of their blunderbuss! Orks are so much more fun to use with the 2nd Ed book.

Gretchin with Blunderbusses were so much fun! Though not as much fun as Squig Katapults, Splatta Kannons, Stormboyz exploding in mid air, Wierdboy Warpheadz with "Power Vomit", Gyro-Stabilized Mono Wheels, Orgyns lead by Ogryn Heroes, Shokk Attack Guns teleporting Snotlings into various places... :D

yabbadabba
18-06-2012, 17:16
Clearly sir, you have never had to run a massive bring and battle childrens Saturday game in a GW store. :p :cries: That was hard work and you couldn't keep track of characters wargear, the sort of wargear that just so happened to be in the right place at the right time... :shifty: Or doing similar at Games Day with MUCH bigger armies.

I loved playing 2nd Ed but it was a real ball ache trying to get 30+ players through a game, holding all their attentions and preventing a fight breaking out.

Did you ever see the "Gretchin Cage" against an Avatar, Angelwing?

Inquisitor D'selinas
18-06-2012, 17:32
Clearly sir, you have never had to run a massive bring and battle childrens Saturday game in a GW store. :p :cries: That was hard work and you couldn't keep track of characters wargear, the sort of wargear that just so happened to be in the right place at the right time... :shifty:

I attended one when I was a wee nipper, about the time 3rd Ed came out, and the experience was enough for me to never attend such an event ever again:D
The endless screeching and luminous yellow Dark Eldar raiders form a legend I recount to this very day:p


Gretchin with Blunderbusses were so much fun! Though not as much fun as Squig Katapults, Splatta Kannons, Stormboyz exploding in mid air, Wierdboy Warpheadz with "Power Vomit", Gyro-Stabilized Mono Wheels, Orgyns lead by Ogryn Heroes, Shokk Attack Guns teleporting Snotlings into various places... :D

Good lord there was so much awesome in the 2nd Ed Orks wasn't there?
*sigh*
I may have to sell the 2nd Ed Tyranid army I'm in the middle of and start Da Boyz again :evilgrin:
Damn you, sir! :p

Bloodknight
18-06-2012, 18:14
Orgyns lead by Ogryn Heroes

I was really pissed at the time that the Orks got better Ogryns than IG, I really wanted that Ogryn Mighty Hero entry in my book....

AndrewGPaul
18-06-2012, 18:58
It wasn't just the Orks; the 'stealer cult got man-portable multi-meltas and heavy plasma guns, as well as land speeders, mole mortars and thudd guns. Not to mention Rhinos stuffed full of angry Genestealers. :)

Bergen Beerbelly
18-06-2012, 20:14
Funniest moment was watching my friends play. One was playing Imperial Guard, the other Chaos. The friend playing Chaos loaded a rhino up with Pink Horrors and rushed it towards the IG line. The IG blew it up, killing every pink horror in the tank. Twice as many Blue Horrors emerged and rushed the IG line. Hilarity ensued

Inquisitor D'selinas
18-06-2012, 20:18
I was really pissed at the time that the Orks got better Ogryns than IG, I really wanted that Ogryn Mighty Hero entry in my book....

Well at least the Guard got the big tanks... oh wait Orks could get them too :evilgrin:
And people have said that Orks in 2nd Ed sucked:rolleyes:


..Not to mention Rhinos stuffed full of angry Genestealers. :)

My god man, it's never occurred to me that you could do this and not just Rhinos but Chimeras and Land Raiders! The horror, the horror!

AndrewGPaul
19-06-2012, 08:23
I can't remember if 'stealer cults got access to Chimeras, but yes, it's not pretty.

Actually, since APCs were deathtraps in 2nd edition, my regular opponent used to run the 'stealers behind said Rhino, using it as a bit of mobile hard cover.

Angelwing
19-06-2012, 10:22
Did you ever see the "Gretchin Cage" against an Avatar, Angelwing?

The surrounding the avatar with lots and lots of the plastic 2nd ed box set gretchin, resulting in combats lasting epochs? :cries:


I can't remember if 'stealer cults got access to Chimeras, but yes, it's not pretty.


The cult got access to:land raider, rhino, predator, leman russ battle tank, chimera, sentinel, imperial guard landspeeder.
The amusing thing was that the imperial guard couldn't actually use their own landspeeder! The datafax card was in the boxset too.
Edit* It was also in the rules that the vehicle had to be painted in cult colours and markings. No borrowing a tank from a friends army!

they could also run rapiers, mole mortars, tarantulas and thudd guns. Sadly though, the cult limousine was not in the list, so it would have to be counts as rhino / chimera.

AndrewGPaul
19-06-2012, 11:01
The amusing thing was that the imperial guard couldn't actually use their own landspeeder! The datafax card was in the boxset too.

They could if you didn't use Codex: Imperial Guard :). Of course, if you did that, you couldn't use Veteran abilities, detach heavy weapons teams or use the pre-battle barrage. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Inquisitor D'selinas
19-06-2012, 13:02
They could if you didn't use Codex: Imperial Guard :). Of course, if you did that, you couldn't use Veteran abilities, detach heavy weapons teams or use the pre-battle barrage. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

Ah yes, using The Black Codex from the boxed set. I've always used it as a good way of representing Planetary Defence Forces due to the lack of those very things you mentioned. I always thought it a shame they never got around to developing the Imperial Agents list into a full codex. The Sisters of Battle codex was a great book. Oh what could have been...

Memnos
19-06-2012, 14:01
They could if you didn't use Codex: Imperial Guard :). Of course, if you did that, you couldn't use Veteran abilities, detach heavy weapons teams or use the pre-battle barrage. You pays your money, you takes your choice.

The Sisters of Battle codex came out 3 months before it was obsolete by the release of a new edition that wasn't compatible with the old one.

If that happens with the new edition, then things will come full circle and I will come on here just to watch the atomic fallout of doing something like that in the age of the Internet.

Gorbad Ironclaw
19-06-2012, 14:04
The surrounding the avatar with lots and lots of the plastic 2nd ed box set gretchin, resulting in combats lasting epochs? :cries:

That would only work if you didn't get more than one or two into base contact with it. Odds were pretty good he would easily kill the first 6 or 7 Gretchins to attack.

Inquisitor D'selinas
19-06-2012, 16:58
The Sisters of Battle codex came out 3 months before it was obsolete by the release of a new edition that wasn't compatible with the old one.

If that happens with the new edition, then things will come full circle and I will come on here just to watch the atomic fallout of doing something like that in the age of the Internet.

Given that 6th Ed comes out in two weeks and as far as I know there hasn't been a codex released so far this year* I doubt that's going to happen:D

*disclaimer: not having played 5th Ed for years I may not be entirely up on it's release schedule;)

Angelwing
19-06-2012, 17:52
The Sisters of Battle codex came out 3 months before it was obsolete by the release of a new edition that wasn't compatible with the old one.


If you mean the 2nd ed sisters codex then not so. The copyright date on the sisters codex is 1997. 3rd ed 40k is 1998. The sisters where in the august and september WD's of 1997. The codex had a year of life. Still short I agree, but at least it was a cheaper thinner codex.

yabbadabba
19-06-2012, 17:56
That would only work if you didn't get more than one or two into base contact with it. Odds were pretty good he would easily kill the first 6 or 7 Gretchins to attack. Yup, that's why it was a cage, and it annoyed the hell out of Eldar players. Chomping through 1-2 Gretchin a turn was just soul destroying for Eldar players.

I also like Intro gaming with 40 Gretchin with autoguns vs the equivalent in Marines from the Big Box. You lose a lot of Grots, but watching Vets as their Marines took a pounding was priceless.

Loki73
19-06-2012, 18:19
I like this thread ! Thumbs up to the OP. My favorite white dwarf Bat rep was pretorian guard vs foot orks. The Pretorians were surrounded and attacked on all sides.

Tethylis
19-06-2012, 18:20
Yup, that's why it was a cage, and it annoyed the hell out of Eldar players. Chomping through 1-2 Gretchin a turn was just soul destroying for Eldar players.

But then thats why bring Fire Dragons and flamers, being able to shoot into combat back then means you can just hose the whole group down. And to quote big red "i'm fireproof, your not!"

Inquisitor D'selinas
19-06-2012, 18:27
Yup, that's why it was a cage, and it annoyed the hell out of Eldar players. Chomping through 1-2 Gretchin a turn was just soul destroying for Eldar players.

After the Chaos and Tyranid books came out we adopted their revisions for Monstrous Creatures for things like Avatars and Dreadnoughts, put a stop to that in one fell swoop as they could now move of out the combat in their following movement phase. Of course, that didn't stop anyone from splatting them with heavy weapons instead.

AndrewGPaul
20-06-2012, 08:53
My friend's Avatar used to spend games hiding from Bjorn the Fell-Handed's assault cannon. Then there was the game where I took three Land Raiders; six pairs of linked lascannon will ruin anyone's day. :)

Angelwing
20-06-2012, 08:59
Ah yes. I recall the day I borrowed 3 chicken walker sentinels from a friend when i took on some eldar. The avatar spend the entire game hiding from the 3 assault cannons, which was almost as good as destroying him. *happy smile*

Commotionpotion
20-06-2012, 10:03
"They could if you didn't use Codex: Imperial Guard . Of course, if you did that, you couldn't use Veteran abilities, detach heavy weapons teams or use the pre-battle barrage. You pays your money, you takes your choice."

Ah, but that was where your 25% Allies points allowance came in. Rapiers, Thudd Guns, Land Speeders, the rarer heavy weapons...they were all available from the Adeptus Mechanicus sublist in the Black Codex - because it was never superceded by a formal army book, it remained legit right to the end of 2ed's cycle. As, of course, did the Squats list, from which you could also draw forces :)

Inquisitor D'selinas
20-06-2012, 22:28
Ah, but that was where your 25% Allies points allowance came in. Rapiers, Thudd Guns, Land Speeders, the rarer heavy weapons...they were all available from the Adeptus Mechanicus sublist in the Black Codex - because it was never superceded by a formal army book, it remained legit right to the end of 2ed's cycle. As, of course, did the Squats list, from which you could also draw forces :)

Could you explain how that is possible? The rules for Allies prohibit taking options from their Support sections, am I missing something?

carlisimo
20-06-2012, 23:05
What really grinds my gears about this is that most of this misinformation comes from those who claim to have played at the time:rolleyes:

Things often seemed that crazy to me. I played Eldar, and my most frequent opponent played Chaos. Many of our battles were good at "normal", but when we brought our best psykers and exarchs/champions, things really could get out of hand. We could wipe out entire squads of our most elite troops in the psychic phase! Don't forget, you could spend 50% of your points on characters. That truly was herohammer.

We had more freedom to play however we wanted, so there was a greater variety of battles. I don't blame GW for that at all. As the hobby grew, players with a more tournament-oriented mentality asked for a tighter game. Players with growing collections asked for a larger game. You can still play small, narrative-heavy games, and I feel like a lot of people forget that, and complain that they aren't forced to play that way.

Inquisitor D'selinas
21-06-2012, 11:53
Things often seemed that crazy to me. I played Eldar, and my most frequent opponent played Chaos. Many of our battles were good at "normal", but when we brought our best psykers and exarchs/champions, things really could get out of hand. We could wipe out entire squads of our most elite troops in the psychic phase! Don't forget, you could spend 50% of your points on characters. That truly was herohammer.

Exactly, that was you and your opponent making a choice to bring such powerful units to battle, which was awesome every once in a while. But when the term 'Herohammer' is used it is usually meant to imply it was the only way to play 2nd Ed, which is clearly nonsense.
Its very rare that an army list of mine reaches 50% for characters, certainly not for the Guard, Marines or Orks. Tyranids can reach 50% easily, but mostly because the Hive Tyrant costs a fortune to begin with and you have to take one.

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-06-2012, 12:58
And honestly, as an Eldar player Dark Reapers with Plasma Missiles, Harlequin jetbikes with Blind Grenades and Warp Spiders was way more disruptive and destructive than the characters. Putting down dozens of templates that stayed in play and either blocked LoS and disrupted movement or caused persistent damage was a great way of making sure your opponent couldn't plan anything and Warp Spiders were just broken.
I remember one game where an IG player killed my Avatar with a vortex grenade in turn two, and in retaliation my Warp Spider Squad killed like 90% of his army on their own. The funniest bit was the Spider Exarch taking his power fists to a Hellhound that then exploded setting a whole unit of Sisters of Battle on fire.

2nd certainly wasn't tightly balanced, but I never felt it was the characters who broke the game, at least not on their own. You had some many powerful non-character options. And it actually felt more like a Sci-fi game to me, with lots of super destructive weapons on the table.


And yes, you can play small narrative games with the present set of 40k rules, I think the question is really more why would you? If that's the kind of game you want then there are several rule-sets out there that is designed to provide that kind of gameplay. You might need to do a little conversion work, but I think most of them will provide a better narrative/skirmish experience than using the current 40k rules.

Mr Zoat
26-07-2012, 17:47
I remember an old 2e batrep where a Librarian won the game by teleporting 48" across the board after the rest of the Space Marines were nearly wiped out. Can you imagine the rage if that were possible now?

White Dwarf 180 or thereabouts. Howling Griffins versus Orks. The marines hadn't actually lost that many, only about three scouts, seven marines and a land speeder. The Librarian then cast Vortex and killed the Ork Warphead, completing the Witch Hunt mission.

jirgaS
26-07-2012, 21:45
2nd ed was more characterful. I started playing tyranids back in 95 and my favourite rule from that book was how sporemines worked against vehicles.
It was painfully difficult to penetrate vehicles armour with sporemines, but when you did the sporemines rusting effect was permanent and you rolled for damage every turn. Trick was that you rolled the location first where the rust had gone and then you rolled for damage. As vehicles had different to hit locations this rule struck me back then as a writing of a pure genius, as you could really imagine the spores juices slowly corroding the whole vehicle. Well, codex tyranids was written by A.Chambers so my conclusion wasn't far off. :)

I'm excited from the 6th ed and I hope that it brings back some of the flame that I had for 40k during 2nd ed. I have a son coming in next december so I hope that I can pass this hobby to him when he grows. But that will be during the 8th ed I guess. :)

edit: and my favorite battle report was the huge, with 2nd ed standards, tank battle with renegade guard against marines from 4 chapters. With all those blind grenades flying around the battle must have lasted for ages but it sure looked like fun.

and if I don't remember wrong the main villain of that battle, Tyrant of something, appeared later in some fluff text of tyranids codex.

Mr Zoat
26-07-2012, 22:51
Lord Varlak. Anyone who heard him speak believed him completely. He died to a Space Wolf landspeeder. They intentionally didn't take Blind Grenades because of how long it would have taken. The Guard tanks used Frag Defender launchers instead.

Cantina Fly
26-07-2012, 23:31
This thread really illustrates how much the internet has changed the game. Every gaming group had their own little culture with the way they played (or ignored, or were ignorant of..) the rules.

I played 2nd Ed. at LEAST 3-4 times a week all through college and everyone in my group remembers 2nd as Herohammer 40K. A typical space marine army list was:

-Tooled out character or two (you HAD to have a psycher.)
-Bare minimum tactical marines to fill the 25% Troops requirement
-Terminators if you needed more infantry
-Tanks + Dreadnaughts

I think the largest game we played was 5000pts, which was a Saturday long game. Most were 1500 or 2000.

Late 2nd Ed, a friend and I played a game of mostly vanilla tactical marines vs vanilla chaos marines and we were both astounded at how different the game played without our super characters. We both had a really good laugh when we read through the rules for 3rd Ed.

I have WD going back to 141 with the Blood Angel vs Eldar battle report. Really funny to see armies painted in flat colors with goblin green bases (and tables) standard. I canceled about the time LotR came out and it completed the transition from "supplemental rules and modeling" to "advertisement monthly." The same friend I play against regularly still has his Baneblade made from the original plans published in WD.