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EcoWarrior
14-06-2012, 20:17
Hey guys im just wondering if experienced players can share thier tactics with woodies.

1)Ill start by asking how do you deal with WoC or daemons ?
especially those high valur armor save units that can be fast moving "bus"

2) which is best to run, deathstar EG or lots of small archers units and forest spirits ?

tmarichards
14-06-2012, 21:44
I personally consider it better to go with lots of small archer units- rather than trying to go toe to toe with enemy combat units, chaff them up and flee from them. Make them play your game instead of theirs.

WOC are a real pain, and I don't really have a concise answer to them beyond avoid and shoot.

Similarily, Daemons don't really require a specific game plan but are, in contrast to WOC, a pretty good match-up as their low toughness and just a 5++ makes them great targets for Glade Guard. Ignore the blocks to begin with and instead shoot off all the chaff, then focus on the blocks one at a time.

cyberspite
15-06-2012, 00:14
High armour saves are the bane of wood elves, we don't really have a lot that can deal with multiple high armoured targets. The old bow of loren, arcane bodkins lord can do some damage, particularly against smaller units like knights, and treemen / treekin can do some damage in combat but larger units need softening-up first.

With the 'deathstar eternal guard' you sort of answered your own question, to make them worthwhile you need to sink so many points into them with character support and magic item buffs they become more of a liability. Some people like to use them but I agree with tmarichards, they are our best, or only, ranked-up combat unit but pretty much every other army has access to better or more points efficient combat infantry. So why try to beat the enemy on their own terms?

SimaoSegunda
15-06-2012, 01:20
Eagles for march-blocking, lord-level mage with Lore of Life, a small mounted unit to tie up war machines, and 10-elf archer units deployed on the flanks with converging fields of fire as much as possible, so you can throw at least 30-40 arrows per turn at whatever units you want to kill. You want to run the units as cheaply as possible, and accept that they will die easily if engaged. Make him have to kill several of your units to get any decent number of victory points. Also, try to position your units so that chargers can't redirect or overrun into other units. You need to be able to pick your fights carefully, and remember that almost any enemy unit you face will be worth more points than yours.

It's an extremely risky way to play, of course. You'll either find that the enemy can't figure out which way to turn, and get shot to bits chasing 120pt units, or if you get it wrong, you'll get steamrollered. If you think you're going to get charged, try to ensure the enemy can't overrun towards your other units, even if it means presenting your flank or rear to them.

EDIT: To answer the original question about armour, the best way to get past an enemy with a high save is to make him take as many saving throws as possible. Even enemies with a 2+ save will fail on average 1/6th of the time. That's why you concentrate your fire as much as possible, and prioritise your targets. Even the best-protected enemies are vulnerable when they are presented with 60 arrows per turn.

EcoWarrior
15-06-2012, 16:08
So baisically i could run withotu any combat units and have lets say 100 archers in units of 10 with some chaff running around in circles shooting? Isnt it handy to have that small combat unit to engage an enemy to close for comfort? or one you have softened up lets say that a unit of 8 dryads would be able to take care of ?

Also i liked using my warhawk riders and eagles together especially when throwing them at artillery. Put the 50 point eagle up infront and have the warhawks behind it in ranks f 1 so they cannot target the warhawks which imo take care of stuff so much better that eagles.

tmarichards
15-06-2012, 17:02
Dryads are quite handy for sniping characters and getting into flanks, or to just thresh light infantry (I especially love running them at BS3 shooting, as it just can't kill them fast enough).

If I could, I'd take them in units of 6, but 8s work just fine as they're not supposed to be a mainstay combat unit.

EcoWarrior
15-06-2012, 17:11
With everything been said do you think its possible to make a good list w/o any heavy hitters e.g. treekin treeman and just go for a mobile army of shooters flyers skirmish and still be successful ?

SimaoSegunda
15-06-2012, 21:44
Yeah, a small combat unit is useful, but again, it's movement that is key. If you need to engage in combat, try to go for flanks or rears. A rear charge puts you at +3 combat res, and your high initiative gives you a chance. Also, if you like using Warhawk Riders, then you could always take them instead of the cavalry unit I recommended earlier.

DarKolia
15-06-2012, 23:18
Hi I think in 8th edition a lot of armies plays similarly and Woodies have lost their skirmishing peculiarity
So here is a tactic that worked well for me with both WE and Bret' (and I think would work better with HE or Empire)
Mass a lot of ranged firepower but not that much... you need enough to scare your opponent to make them move (no general accept to be fired upon without reacting) where you want and there you can fight them on your ground (mostly with combo charge)... so you also need to have a good CC force... (8th ed is basically a CC ed.)
Of course woodies are here at a disadvantage as they have very few ranked unit (basically TK and EG) but both Dryads and TK are efficient fighters so if you move carefully you should at least not lose a fight... but with steadfast it will be hard to break them so chose carefully your fight...
I've not tried the Callach claws (-1 Ld) and -1Ld stone yet but I think it could help to have a fighty lord helping in breaking units'morale

Chicago Slim
16-06-2012, 03:26
I haven't attempted spamming Glade Guard to the degree you're suggesting (I run 4 or 5 ten-packs, backed up by minimum-size Forest Spirit units to finish the job). I tend to follow the doctrine that you can't win a war by air power, but require "boots on the ground"-- there are a lot of units that will take a bunch of damage from shooting (up to 90% of the unit), and then their last few guys will handily crush 10 Glade Guard. Along the same lines, if the only thing you bring is shooting (and 10 x 10 Glade Guard is 1,200 points, with no command), it's not too hard for opponents to soak up a bunch of damage, and then retire the targeted unit to the rear, leaving you with no points gained...

cyberspite
16-06-2012, 03:58
It's worth noting also that when you go past about 40-50 glade guard it gets increasingly more difficult not to block your own firing lanes, I think that's about the optimum number to take, then start balancing with combat units.

A shooty / avoidance list can work but imo it gets old fairly quickly, it can work well in the 8th meta against more big blocks where you can kill off the chaff and weaker elements and avoid the rest but I prefer to have something that can at least do a bit of fighting.

Akkaryn
16-06-2012, 08:33
I take 60 glade guard and sometimes struggle with firing lanes. (16,12,12 and 3 10s)

Memnos
16-06-2012, 10:59
Any thoughts on eliminating multiple steam tanks? Random movement means they have a 360 degree charge range and a 17.5" average distance with no charge reactions can cause a problem. I'm hoping for something other than Amber Spear+pray.;)

EcoWarrior
16-06-2012, 12:18
I thought steam tanks could only charge 3 D6? wouldent that average at 9? or am i missing a rule?
Well steamtanks are so unreliable and put it this way if he has 2 steamtanks in 2k thats a massive chunk of his army. You only need to get them down a few wounds before they start blowing themselves up with the new steam points rule. Also wildform treekin or dryads should knock the AS on it down a bit if you have no other choice but to engage it in combat. I would be tempted to shoot the stank but its a waste of shots. It counts as a chariot so use curse of anraheir to test for dangerous terrain that inflicts D6 wounds instead of 1 no armor saves aloud. It fails that on a 1 or 2 aswell so he might think twice before moving the thing closer to you. Also its been said people usually take life magic with them so you have less offensive magic to worry about.

Lord Solar Plexus
16-06-2012, 13:12
3d6 = 10.5" on average. Less than M4 infantry, and less if he uses fewer steam points on moving. They are unreliable but that goes both ways. Neither player will know where the thing ends up.

EcoWarrior
16-06-2012, 20:26
Do you guys find Treekin work better in 1 group or 2 groups (of 4 or 6) ?

tmarichards
17-06-2012, 20:44
I prefer the 2 smaller units, it gives you double the flexibility and gives away fewer points if you get caught by one of the numerous Treekin counters in the game.

EcoWarrior
17-06-2012, 21:51
so lets say for a 2k game would you choose units of 3 or 4 treekin? Ive allways been inclined to take 4 for the extra attacks, especially when it comes to thumping a character in combat.

tmarichards
17-06-2012, 22:16
At 2K, I wouldn't take any Treekin. I only take them once I reach the shooting cap and can't get any more Glade Guard in.

Master Of Fate
18-06-2012, 09:32
Wood Elves have some fun there are a few ways to be a dick with WE
~ 1645/1650pts
- (1) [6] 3x2 Tree Kin
- (1) [5] 3x2 Tree Kin
- Wiz. Lord lv4 (Life) + with a tower
- (1) 34 man unit of GG (Standard only) with Aech - Banner of Spring Tide
- BSB + Razors Standard

Deployment:
Bowmen / Wizard / BSB in tower Tree kin to ether side
Try to keep the tree kin with in 12" of tower for Lore of Life side effect of recovering wounds on MW creatures

While in the tower your unit is LD9 (wizard lord) stubborn and has both AP ranged and melee with BSB
The Idea is to bait you enemy into charging the tower (only one enemy can ever engage you at a time 10 on 10) you get your charge reaction to shoot doing a max of 20 shots of str 4 AP shots get your attacks in melee then force the enemy to disengage due to assault building rules now you take your turn to shoot him. rinse and repeat all the while throwing Buffs on units and reviving them.

this list works awesome against 80% of enemies with some relevance to the mission

tmarichards
18-06-2012, 11:59
Razor Standard explicitly does not work on shooting attacks unfortunately .

EcoWarrior
18-06-2012, 16:27
so lets say it was 2k points no cap on shooting, would you take 86 glade guard over 44 and 8 treekin in 2 units of 4 ? I agree yes 40 more shots is great but what about when you play ogres or skaven and you need some big stuff to slap them up a bit ?

tmarichards
18-06-2012, 18:11
Treekin are great against Skaven for killing their infantry, but they still have tools to deal with them- Doomwheels, WLCs, Abombs (if you can't shoot them off first), Brass Orbs and even just units of Slaves to tie them for 2-3 phases are all a headache- so I wouldn't say they're essential.

Ogres, on the other hand, still just run straight over Treekin. If you can get the charge off on the Mournfang then you can do some damage, but most Ogre players worth their salt will just flee the charge and counter with the Gutstar, which destroys units of 6 Treekin unless you get incredibly lucky.

For the most part, if there's no cap on shooting I think you're best off maximising your Glade Guard count and double-fleeing charges for as long as you can whilst putting a high volume of shots into the enemy.

DarKolia
18-06-2012, 18:16
@Master Of Fate

You have to be very careful when you play this list... this is a good way to lose friends... (However I think you can after a strong defeat, if you want revenge)

PS: I did something like that at LoTR with combining Gandalf the other Istari (forgot his name) and Hobbit Archers... not fun at all... we ended playing space hulk

@Tom
...unfortunately, that's not that explicit... (this is rather implicit I would say as many things in 8th ed.)

EcoWarrior
18-06-2012, 20:40
@ tmarichards
The dryads can hold thier own in some combat situations but definatly not all and obviously you need to choose them well. But wouldent dropping them leave your ability to deal with some of those harder units that glade guard cant deal with open? Even if it was a Stank, you might need that extra punch that the glade guard just cant deliver. If you dont agree with me thats totally fine im just wondering how you would go about those units you cant deal with; with glade guard.

EcoWarrior
18-06-2012, 20:43
Wood Elves have some fun there are a few ways to be a dick with WE
~ 1645/1650pts
- (1) [6] 3x2 Tree Kin
- (1) [5] 3x2 Tree Kin
- Wiz. Lord lv4 (Life) + with a tower
- (1) 34 man unit of GG (Standard only) with Aech - Banner of Spring Tide
- BSB + Razors Standard

Deployment:
Bowmen / Wizard / BSB in tower Tree kin to ether side
Try to keep the tree kin with in 12" of tower for Lore of Life side effect of recovering wounds on MW creatures

While in the tower your unit is LD9 (wizard lord) stubborn and has both AP ranged and melee with BSB
The Idea is to bait you enemy into charging the tower (only one enemy can ever engage you at a time 10 on 10) you get your charge reaction to shoot doing a max of 20 shots of str 4 AP shots get your attacks in melee then force the enemy to disengage due to assault building rules now you take your turn to shoot him. rinse and repeat all the while throwing Buffs on units and reviving them.

this list works awesome against 80% of enemies with some relevance to the mission

Can't you destory building now tho lol ?

Adasi
20-06-2012, 14:48
except that the Razor standard doesn't confer AP shots....only works on clsoe combat attacks im' afraid!

Master Of Fate
25-06-2012, 04:47
LOL yes this list like many others is a way to **** people off xD
and YES the RAZORS STANDARD does work ..... its not reversely applicable ... this has been argued back and fourth ....
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?339137-New-Army-Tree-Heavy-Wood-Elves&p=6184484#post6184484
"Ranged Attacks Do Benefit from the Standard


Razor Standard (pg503):
"Models in a unit with the Razor Standard have the Armour Piercing special rule"

Armour piercing (pg67):
"Wounds caused in close combat by a model with this special rule (or who is attacking with a weapon that has this special rule) inflict a further -1 armour save modifier, in addition to those for Strength.
[Example omitted]
If a model has a weapon with the Armour Piercing special rule, only attacks made or shots fired with the weapon are armour piercing"


Yes, that is the exact the wording from the book, but as it reads If a model has a weapon with would imply the ability is not reversely conveyed, so no hand gunners getting armor piercing melee combats. All infrinces of armor piercing are denoted by ether the unit or the weapon description. The magic banner conveys Armor Piercing on the model and unless your not playing WYSIWYG I don't see any way for your weapon not to be conferred the bonus as it is part of the model. No Other basic weapon listed has rules (Poison/Flaming) with the exception of army specific or magic weapons which denote it.

There are other rules all which would agree or disagree if that is how they intended it

Killing Blow (p72)"Unless otherwise specified, killing blow applies only to close combat attacks."

Volley Fire (p78) "A unit with..." in this case volley fire is conveyed upon the unit from its weapons would be the intent.

Flaming Attacks (p69) "Unless other wise stated a model with this rule has both Flaming Shooting and close combat attacks..."

Poison Attacks (p73) "Unless other wise stated a model with this rule has both Poison Shooting and close combat attacks..."

The trend of the Special Rules description would suggest the second part is only to prevent its reverse application and that if applied magically to the model the weapon would indeed benefit.

Now unless there is part of the book that say the Term Model('s) refers effectively only to "it's" stat line and any special rules or a Model is all but the equipment that must be present for the it to be legal, then weapons are indeed part of the model but the ability can clearly not be reversely conveyed from the weapon in this case.

Enchanted blades much more clearly states that ...(p494) "All of their attacks also count as magical attacks and having the armor piercing special rule."


It is because its a general rule it has to be written to be all inclusive to cc while allowing the distinct possibility for it to be conveyed upon the models weapons via a magic item in this case. It is much easier to rule out rules or be all inclusive when you don't have any basic weapons that use those rules.

(p3) "The Spirit of the game ...lies in the freedom and open-endedness..." Thou here I do believe it is not needed (p2) "The Most Important Rule...""

tmarichards
25-06-2012, 12:17
Rather than post a long and wrong argument, it's simpler to just read the rules. Razor Standard does not affect shooting attacks, as per the rules.

Master Of Fate
28-06-2012, 08:50
Rather than post a long and wrong argument, it's simpler to just read the rules. Razor Standard does not affect shooting attacks, as per the rules.

Rather than posting a sarcastic argument you really should point out where in the rules (posted above) that it is wrong, it helps to learn how to read and understand english and there is more than one arrogant way to take it.

"...as it reads If a model has a weapon with would imply the ability is not reversely conveyed, so no hand gunners getting armor piercing melee combats. All infrinces of armor piercing are denoted by ether the unit or the weapon description. The magic banner conveys Armor Piercing on the model."

Not limited to the weapons.....

The weapon is part of the model, when the buff* is given and would have its profile adjusted instead of the model having the rule prior to adding in its weapons profile.
This is more of an Order of Operations problem of interpretation.

SkawtheFalconer
28-06-2012, 09:42
I can't believe this argument has come up again.

The razor standard gives the model armour penetrating attacks - not the missile weapon. For an example of when the weapon gains the rule, see Dark Elf crossbow for comparison.

Mirbeau
29-06-2012, 11:41
Wood Elves have some fun there are a few ways to be a dick with WE
~ 1645/1650pts
- (1) [6] 3x2 Tree Kin
- (1) [5] 3x2 Tree Kin
- Wiz. Lord lv4 (Life) + with a tower
- (1) 34 man unit of GG (Standard only) with Aech - Banner of Spring Tide
- BSB + Razors Standard

Deployment:
Bowmen / Wizard / BSB in tower Tree kin to ether side
Try to keep the tree kin with in 12" of tower for Lore of Life side effect of recovering wounds on MW creatures

While in the tower your unit is LD9 (wizard lord) stubborn and has both AP ranged and melee with BSB
The Idea is to bait you enemy into charging the tower (only one enemy can ever engage you at a time 10 on 10) you get your charge reaction to shoot doing a max of 20 shots of str 4 AP shots get your attacks in melee then force the enemy to disengage due to assault building rules now you take your turn to shoot him. rinse and repeat all the while throwing Buffs on units and reviving them.

this list works awesome against 80% of enemies with some relevance to the mission

Sorry mate, nice thinking but I think the list doesn't seem much good for anything more than novelty - artillery does horrid things to units in buildings. All your points are in so few units, regrowth isn't all that - and quite hard to cast, and you have no defence, magic could/should tear you a new one. And you actually want people to charge your glade guard?! And as others have noted, no-one plays the razor standard as giving ap shooting, pity but that's how it is.