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maltesefalcon205
15-06-2012, 23:58
Hello allHere are my questions1. If I cast "The dwellers below" on a unit, does it also single out the Champion, Musican and the SB as every single model in the unit has to roll a Strength test??2. Are strength test rolled on unmodified profiles or modified profiles from items,etc,etc3. If I charge a unit of Undead but the following phases they are destroyed my crumbling, what happens to my unit that charged them (as in can they reform or do they just stay there)??Thanks in advance

AMWOOD co
16-06-2012, 00:14
Hello all. Here are my questions:
1. If I cast "The dwellers below" on a unit, does it also single out the Champion, Musican and the SB as every single model in the unit has to roll a Strength test??
2. Are strength test rolled on unmodified profiles or modified profiles from items,etc,etc
3. If I charge a unit of Undead but the following phases they are destroyed my crumbling, what happens to my unit that charged them (as in can they reform or do they just stay there)??
Thanks in advance

First, please press the edit button on your post and fix your spacing and punctuation (PLEASE!). Something like the above is better. To answer your questions...

1. Yes and no. The champion will be singled out but the musician and standard are not (see pp 93-95).
2. Modified unless it says otherwise. Note, however, that magic weapons only apply their modifier when used in combat (with only a few exceptions).
3. Reform or overrun? Yes, provided it was your unit's first round in that combat (which I gather it is as they charged that turn).

maltesefalcon205
16-06-2012, 00:27
Hello again, for some reason I'm unable to create new lines via pressing "enter" or "shift+enter", also doesn't help I'm currently using my work's computers which have restrictions so thank you for bearing with it. Going back to the charge I meant there hasn't been any combat what so ever, but I have charged the unit in the Charge sub-phase of movement

GiraffeCrab
16-06-2012, 01:16
How do you mean there has not been any combat? Is the crumble not due to combat results and if you have not conducted the combat itself then how can the unit crumble? Even if the general has died if you have charged they shouldn't crumble then it would be at the end of the combat or the start of your opponents turn, I play Tomb Kings and have not experienced anything like that. Do feel free to correct me if im wrong ...

maltesefalcon205
16-06-2012, 01:30
@GiraffeCrab: I am more referring to VC as I am under the impression they crumble at the end of the phase their general dies, then if they have another caster with the lore of the vampire he then takes control of the army.

Sarge.au
16-06-2012, 01:37
3. Reform or overrun? Yes, provided it was your unit's first round in that combat (which I gather it is as they charged that turn).

Don't be too quick on this one. This issue is the point of a huge debate as you are not wiping out a unit and you over-run/reform when you wipe out a unit.

GiraffeCrab
16-06-2012, 02:12
@GiraffeCrab: I am more referring to VC as I am under the impression they crumble at the end of the phase their general dies, then if they have another caster with the lore of the vampire he then takes control of the army.


Ah yes, i apologise its been a long day of celebrating im surprised i can type let alone remember rules without my book. As its the end of the phase then would the combat result been calculated and actions taken before the rolls to determine the crumble at the end of the phase after the general kicks the bucket?? So i would assume you would reform as it seems to be the way to do it whenever you leave a combat, and i gues it represents the guys in the unit re-ranking while scratching their heads wondering if their awesomeness disintegrated the skellies.

Sarge.au
16-06-2012, 02:42
Ah yes, i apologise its been a long day of celebrating im surprised i can type let alone remember rules without my book. As its the end of the phase then would the combat result been calculated and actions taken before the rolls to determine the crumble at the end of the phase after the general kicks the bucket?? So i would assume you would reform as it seems to be the way to do it whenever you leave a combat, and i gues it represents the guys in the unit re-ranking while scratching their heads wondering if their awesomeness disintegrated the skellies.

Crumbling occurs after the CR is counted up and break tests are made. You cannot over run or reformed due to a unit completely crumbling. This is a carry over from 7th that is not present in 8th.

maltesefalcon205
16-06-2012, 02:55
Hmm, so if one of my units charges a undead unit and then that unit crumbles I don't resolve anything as there hasn't been any combat??? Not even a reform??

Sarge.au
16-06-2012, 02:58
Pretty much it, yep.

maltesefalcon205
16-06-2012, 05:07
How let's flip things over, what if I have a breath weapon and fire that into a unit which some how I manange to wipe out, what happens to the combat then?

LiddellHart
16-06-2012, 08:57
Another unit cannot shoot (breathe) in an ongoing combat, and a unit involved in the combat breathes in the close combat phase, counting towards combat results.
I guess this adds nothing.

I'd like to point out that sarge is ignoring his own warning stating as a fact his opinion, that is heavily debated elsewhere. My view is: no enemies left after first combat = overrun, but I don't hold it as absolute truth.

maltesefalcon205
16-06-2012, 12:04
I suppose I will have to arrange it with my friend pre game so it doesn't turn into a messy quagmire

Smogg
16-06-2012, 12:48
It's not possible to overrun after crumble since the overrun rule require:
1. You must have charged that turn
2. You must have wiped out the enemy by the end of that round of close combat.

- The round of close combat happens before combat resolution. So there is no way you can crumble and then overrun.

Note this has been heavily debated and still is in various places. You can find the link to the war seer discussion here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?341549-VC-crumble-question

As for crumbling due to the general death, that happens at the end of the phase. So if it happens end of movement, end of shooting or end of magic, you still get to overrun or reform provided you charged that turn. If it happens at the end of the close combat phase, you get to do nothing.

theunwantedbeing
16-06-2012, 12:58
It's not possible to overrun after crumble since the overrun rule require:
1. You must have charged that turn
2. You must have wiped out the enemy before the end of that round of close combat.

- The round of close combat happens before combat resolution. So there is no way you can crumble and then overrun.

When GW finally bother to write an FAQ this will changed to enemies getting to overrun enemies that were destroyed by crumble

Combat ends when you start to work out the combat resolution.
You get to overrun if you wiped the enemy out during the combat.
As you don't crumble untill the combat resolution is worked out, this is after the combat and so...no overrun.

Obviously this is a really RAW and gamey argument to not allow overruns so not really "in the spirit of the rules" as such.

Sarge.au
16-06-2012, 13:59
I'd like to point out that sarge is ignoring his own warning stating as a fact his opinion, that is heavily debated elsewhere. My view is: no enemies left after first combat = overrun, but I don't hold it as absolute truth.

Yes it is debated, but I can only go on what is written in the rules, and it's pretty clear you don't get over run from crumble, so I state it as fact. Just because it is debated, doesn't mean there isn't a right or wrong.

thesoundofmusica
16-06-2012, 16:26
I'd like to point out that sarge is ignoring his own warning stating as a fact his opinion, that is heavily debated elsewhere.

Yes quite funny =)

But at least now the OP will know both sides of the debate and come to his own conclusion.

Fruhauf
16-06-2012, 16:33
Take it with a pinch of salt and play it as you see fit, especially if you play with friends. Just agree before hand how you want to sort the crumble/overrun issue as it can be argued either way.

AMWOOD co
17-06-2012, 04:38
It's not possible to overrun after crumble since the overrun rule require:
1. You must have charged that turn
2. You must have wiped out the enemy by the end of that round of close combat.

- The round of close combat happens before combat resolution. So there is no way you can crumble and then overrun.

Note this has been heavily debated and still is in various places. You can find the link to the war seer discussion here:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?341549-VC-crumble-question

As for crumbling due to the general death, that happens at the end of the phase. So if it happens end of movement, end of shooting or end of magic, you still get to overrun or reform provided you charged that turn. If it happens at the end of the close combat phase, you get to do nothing.

Hmm... the thread is an interesting read. However, there are a few things to note, mainly that the phrase 'round of combat' does apply to combat resolution as well. Don't believe me? Try p54, 3rd paragraph. It mentions the side that lost the round of combat, so resolution must take place for that to count as part of the combat round. Still, that just goes to show that the issue isn't one sided.

If you are indeed correct, however, then maybe my bases of Snotlings will see their way onto the table after all. Cheap speed-bumps are always worth it (especially if combined with chariots).

maltesefalcon205
17-06-2012, 06:50
Me and my friends have just come to the conclusion as this event is pretty rare (referring to a unit crumbling before I hit is blown) that it's just a wiped-out result, as the way we envision the VC units just crumble to dust as soon as they are hit and the unit still has it's monetuem.

maltesefalcon205
17-06-2012, 06:51
Oh a side note as well would be the CR with crumbling, we also just count that as a win and reforms are possible etc etc