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View Full Version : New VC player need advice on GG



avatarofportent
17-06-2012, 03:52
For a 2500ptsbgame how big should I go. What do I equip them with. Characters inside the regiment? weapons?

madival
17-06-2012, 04:18
Great weapon with barrows banner. Hit on 3s , wound on 2s is nasty. 40 strong I would say at least. Characters and such usually are personal preferance.

Askari
17-06-2012, 07:37
Great weapon with barrows banner. Hit on 3s , wound on 2s is nasty. 40 strong I would say at least. Characters and such usually are personal preferance.

What he said with the addendum, if you're doing a Master Necromancer list, don't put him in the GG. They'll be seeing the fiercest fighting, so you don't want a squishy Wizard anywhere near that fight.

Frankly
17-06-2012, 17:49
++1 up top!

I've been running 50-55 Grave Guard up from 40. Best thing ever. The ability to strike back against enemy heavy hitting units with a good amount of attacks is certainly worth the extra points.

Supported by a M.Necro means this unit is now pretty hard to take off the board through combat.

Askari
17-06-2012, 19:13
Hm, I do like that concept also, all but ensuring you get a full 31 swings at the enemy. Cost is a little too steep for me to actually do so however, at 2,500 it would mean losing the Varghulf in terms of points which would be a massive shame.

Ville
17-06-2012, 21:19
I too have decided to incorporate this famous Grave Guard into my lists. Previously I've only used mounted Wights.

Great weapons, horde formation and Banner Of The Barrows. You can hardly go wrong with this setup. Would it be worth it to try Screaming Banner instead for some fear-bombing?

madival
17-06-2012, 22:18
Try a magic banner vampire for fear bombing. Fear incarnate and the screaming banner can make those GG hit on 2s meaning that you don't have to get van hals to make them obliterate people. Kind of expensive points wise though

Frankly
18-06-2012, 07:40
Hm, I do like that concept also, all but ensuring you get a full 31 swings at the enemy. Cost is a little too steep for me to actually do so however, at 2,500 it would mean losing the Varghulf in terms of points which would be a massive shame.



True. No doubt that its a big shift in points for any list and that'll most likely mean a change in how the list plays on the table top.

For me atleast, firstly those points are points spent in 'points denial' making the unit harder to lose due to crumble has been all important for shifting more points into my GG unit. Secondly theres a wider scope of what the GG unit can target making it much more playable as a heavy hitting unit without the need for a frontline combat character in the unit.

So for a M.Necro list for example, those points are a reasonable shift in points, since the primary goal of a M.Necro list is generally to buff a HUGE unit of heavy hitters and grind out 6 turn games for the win. IF the heavy hitter unit(in this case a GG unit) is more reliable, then imho that strengthen the list.

Note that I've only had 7 games with a 50+ GG unit. So take it all with a grain of salt. :)

Askari
18-06-2012, 08:20
Ah yeah true, downgrading my Vampire Lord to a Master Necromancer would also cover that cost handily. Maybe enough left to upgrade the hero Necromancer into hero Fearbomb Screaming Banner Vamp also.

But I just love using the Vampire Lord.

Nothing in this game feels better than telling your opponent:
"Right this guy has 5 S7 attacks, strikes first, and re-rolls to hit"
"OK roll for him"
"Cool, he scored 5 wounds! Now I get another 5 attacks"
"ASDFJHALHKJKL!"

Frankly
18-06-2012, 09:26
haha yeah, thats what WHFB is all about ,, getting those good dice rolling. :)

I should just say on this thread that GG death stars are a concept in their own right and a good way to play the unit. But a 40 GG horde is fine as well, as it lends to a more balanced list for players to play against and to play with.

NitrosOkay
18-06-2012, 09:50
The big deathstar is vulnerable to big spells and you'll be dumping a lot of points into it so you can be vulnerable to having your flanks explode and then getting hit on all sides with a lot of nasty things (Grave guard only have a 5+ save and T4, you can lose 30 in a round if you get hit on two sides by any decent combat units, then crumble if you roll below average). It also only marches 8", people can redirect it or ignore it or tarpit it.

I wouldn't go more than 40 strong.

avatarofportent
19-06-2012, 03:30
So 40 Guys with musician, banner of barrows, standard and GW's cost me 550pts. Thats alot of points. Should I bother buying the unit champ too?

Frankly
19-06-2012, 07:04
The big deathstar is vulnerable to big spells ....

Almost all deathstars are open to some kind of attack, mostly magical and it is a concern for any 'point sink' unit. It certainly hasn't stopped huge hordes/or point sink units from been taken out of almost every armybook and been constistantly played well. The more important fact is that I'm going to face alot more heavy hitting units that become more targetable than they were in the past. This offsets the big spell casting, because for me atleast its the more consistant threat to my GG unit.

Also remember that in M.Necro(w. B.P.) list with 3 other casters(channel spam + forbidden rod/regen build), dual engines, you can get a consistant magic phase that can IoN GG unit back at a crazy rate. Theres a few army builds out there that are able to range attack down 50 GGs in a turn(empire killed a unit of 40 a couple of weeks ago), but usually support range attacks to a non-issue for rank and file in a M.Nerco list.



...and you'll be dumping a lot of points into it so you can be vulnerable to having your flanks explode and then getting hit on all sides with a lot of nasty things (Grave guard only have a 5+ save and T4, you can lose 30 in a round if you get hit on two sides by any decent combat units, then crumble if you roll below average).

As for flank charges :). That comes down to game play and list construction, any unit can be vulnerable in the flank, pretending big GG units to more so than it actually is, is not a reason not to add 10 more models. It actually just sounds like nay-saying ;).


It also only marches 8", people can redirect it or ignore it or tarpit it.

Yeah it marches 8" .... like most other infantry combat units in the WHFB world. I never new that was a issue? WoC certainly don't find it an issue. And again re-directing/tarpit/ignore all comes down to game play and list construction. A deathstar list is going to be about protecting that big unit with support, its going to be about having an inbulit delivery system to get the GG unit into the right combats etc, etc.


TBH adding 10-15 models is 120-180pts onto an already costly unit and that does cross a certain points limit people are comfortable putting into a rank and file unit, which is fare enough, I undersatnd that. The thing is 50+ GG units don't need frontline combat character support that will usually indirectly put combat unit over that same amount of points. Another thing is GG units are just so well costed .. almost undercosted with all their abilities and statline, its one of the reasons I really wanted to try out bigger unit sizes.

NitrosOkay
19-06-2012, 11:16
180 points buys you two spirit hosts and two bat swarms and 20 points for character gear. The spirit hosts are two extra drops and work great on the flanks. The bat swarms let your grave guard strike first with great weapons. 20 points of character gear speaks for itself.

I'd much rather have that than 15 more Grave Guard in a unit that's already 40 strong, personal opinion.

Frankly
19-06-2012, 12:09
Fare enough Nitro.

I think a deathstar GG unit is very doable, a sound concept, its certainly a great points denial build when the unit is added to a strong magic phase, but to be honest I'm not really a deathstar player.

I'll go back to 40 horde + another heavy hitter unit over the long run. But its nice to try out things. :)

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2012, 12:32
Almost all deathstars are open to some kind of attack, mostly magical and it is a concern for any 'point sink' unit.


What does that have to do with the GG deathstar? I don't see how some Gutstar dying in Australia helps it or makes the former better. The problem is real and remains.



It certainly hasn't stopped huge hordes/or point sink units from been taken out of almost every armybook and been constistantly played well.


Hmm. Who knows.



As for flank charges :). That comes down to game play and list construction, any unit can be vulnerable in the flank, pretending big GG units to more so than it actually is, is not a reason not to add 10 more models. It actually just sounds like nay-saying ;).


It's the only logical conclusion. GGstar = more points = less points for flank protection = GGstar more likely to get flanked. The fact that every unit can be vulnerable in the flank - which isn't even true as STanks and Varghulfs testify - is misleading. Every unit does not cost 500-600 points, so the risk is much higher than if you flank charge some Marauder Cav.

Don't get me wrong, I completely see your point for taking a large unit and how it is possible to keep it not only alive but combat worthy, and that making it bigger is already part of that.

Frankly
19-06-2012, 13:54
blah blah blah



Hmm. Who knows.



blah blah blah

Yeah ... nice to see you bothering argue with moot points Lord solar Plexus, if you'd bother to read posts better I'm sure you'll find what your looking for. If you want people to argue to the detail, because a general reply doesn't seem good enough for you and to do so you write silly examples and call them 'logical' thats fine, but what a bore.

By Nitros replies and my replies back to him it looks like we got our points across to each other with out nit picking.

Lord Solar Plexus
19-06-2012, 14:28
So you cannot explain your sweeping generalizations. Okay.

Telling a new player that flanking, diverting and spell-splatting doesn't matter or isn't a huge issue "because everyone gets flanked/diverted/splatted" and it's just a just a question of playing better isn't very good advice. Yes, it would have been much better to outline the pro's and con's of two builds instead in some detail.

Frankly
19-06-2012, 14:52
So you cannot explain your sweeping generalizations. Okay.



yeah nice post edit there ... so you don't look like a troll.


Where did I say magic or flanking doesn't matter?


Almost all deathstars are open to some kind of attack, mostly magical and it is a concern for any 'point sink' unit.
....

Nowhere. I agreed that magic is a concern to any points sink unit and I kept the flanking charge comments general, because the thread isn't about flank charges. Actually this ...


As for flank charges :). That comes down to game play and list construction, any unit can be vulnerable in the flank ...

has nothing to do with this ...



.... isn't a huge issue "because everyone gets flanked/diverted/splatted" and it's just a just a question of playing better isn't very good advice.

I wasn't giving advice at all, thats pretty easy to see. I wasn't telling anyone thats its a question of playing better, thats simply not true. I was referring to that fact that flank charges are situational to whats happening on the table top(game play, not player skill) and armylist construction can play apart in this a great deal. Its not advice and noone is being asked to play better. You've simply tagged on your own comments that are untrue for arguments sake, which is not needed at all.


Again, bother to read the posts. The posts were meant to be general. As I've said before, NitrosOkay and I seemed to both get our points across to each other without reverting to silly examples like ...


I don't see how some Gutstar dying in Australia helps it or makes the former better.

Hmm. Who knows.

... - which isn't even true as STanks and Varghulfs testify - is misleading.

Maybe I should use baseless examples like this to get my point across, but it was not needed. If Nitro had asked me to explain my examples and veiws on my choice of a GG unit further, then I would have.

Again go back and bother to read both the tone and general nature of the posts of this thread.

GrandmasterWang
20-06-2012, 05:41
Hmm... Its getting snarky in here.

I can see the benefits of the 50 strong squad.

What are peoples opinion of the 6 wide 30 strong full command squad with vamp lord and wight bsb? Of course banner if the barrows (the main reason to take a big unit) is in as well. Ive seen this unit played to breat effect.

Does anyone use the hw option?

Frankly
20-06-2012, 06:10
Hmm... Its getting snarky in here.

True, true. I'm sure we can work things out like gentlemen, if everyone replies to posts to an honest fashion.


Theres a debate going on in the VC tactics thread about hw/shield options on GG units.