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Khorneflakes
19-06-2012, 07:08
had a game in the weekend where my chaos chariot charged a unit of skinks.

he declared a stand and shoot reaction, i needed a 10 on the dice (extreme charge i know!) and i rolled up a double 3! so i was way short and ended up 14" away from the skinks.

they only have a 12" range with their blowpipes.

can they still shoot at my chariot?

Akkaryn
19-06-2012, 07:17
Yes, (as silly as it is) Stand and shoot reaction is performed before you roll the dice.

LiddellHart
19-06-2012, 08:09
I imagine your unit charging to -12", getting peppered by lots and lots of darts, and then slinking back a few inches :D

Luuky19
19-06-2012, 09:06
for stand and shoot it never meters where the enemy is when he started, but if the charge range is within his movement range. If this is the case the enemy cannot stand and shoot as there is no time to prepare. quick to fire special rule allows a range unit to fire within the movement range of a charging unit, like with the blow pipes of the skink's.

Mr_Rose
19-06-2012, 09:40
had a game in the weekend where my chaos chariot charged a unit of skinks.

he declared a stand and shoot reaction, i needed a 10 on the dice (extreme charge i know!) and i rolled up a double 3! so i was way short and ended up 14" away from the skinks.

they only have a 12" range with their blowpipes.

can they still shoot at my chariot?

Considering that the whole SnS reaction is worked out completely, including any Panic checks caused by said shooting, before you even roll the dice for charge range, I'm not sure why you think the unit's final position is relevant.
If you declare a charge and the target has shooting weapons, they can declare a SnS reaction regardless of the weapon's actual range; this is specified very clearly in the SnS reaction description.

Danny76
21-06-2012, 14:50
If you have a pistol with 12" range and handgunners with 24" range.
What do the handgunners roll on, over half range -1 to hit or under.
I remember seeing somewhere that you use the closest range for distance, so having him in there means they hit easier.

T10
21-06-2012, 15:16
There is a trend towards wilful misinterpretation of the rules for out-of-range weapons and Stand&Shoot charge reactions.

Boreas_NL
23-06-2012, 11:39
If I recall correctly, you don't suffer the -1 penalty for long range as the unit is supposed to wait until the optimal moment...

Mr_Rose
23-06-2012, 15:11
If I recall correctly, you don't suffer the -1 penalty for long range as the unit is supposed to wait until the optimal moment...

You don't recall correctly. The unit waits until the chargers are just inside long range, no later, if the charger starts outside.

Artinam
23-06-2012, 21:30
How does this work with mixed units? Say a Brace of Pistols in a unit Thunderers? Do you wait untill everything is in range or not (thus not having the +1 for long modifier on the Thunderers).

Just so I understand the answer to the original question. The Skinks do not get to shoot as the charger never gets into range?

papabearshane
23-06-2012, 22:56
The skinks do get to shoot even though the Charge failed. The final position of the charger has no impact on the stand and shoot reaction or range. He could have charged and they did shoot.

theunwantedbeing
23-06-2012, 23:16
The skinks do get to shoot even though the Charge failed. The final position of the charger has no impact on the stand and shoot reaction or range. He could have charged and they did shoot.

Indeed, bizarrely even if the charger never actually made it into range....the unit still gets to shoot.

Lorcryst
23-06-2012, 23:50
I'd like to know the answer to the Thunderers + Champion with a Brace of Pistols question too ...

I remember that in 7th ed, you had to actually measure the range for Stand and Shoot, and that there was a nasty trick of taking the (free) Brace of Pistols to "force" the Thunderers to shoot at 12 inches range, because you had to fire at the longest range of the shortest-ranged weapon ... thus having the Thunderers at short range, hitting on 3+ ...

Looks like in 8th ed, said Champion would get his two shots no matter the range, if I read it right ?

MyNameDidntFit
23-06-2012, 23:57
As I read it you get all shots as it is intended to be that the charging unit comes within range and a failed charge is treated as them falling back or being beaten back by the shots.

theunwantedbeing
23-06-2012, 23:58
Looks like in 8th ed, said Champion would get his two shots no matter the range, if I read it right ?

Yes, and the rest of his unit has to wait to shoot untill then as well.
Page 17, bottom left hand side

The tricky bit is getting your dwarf opponent to realise that just because his champion stands and shoots at 12", it doesn't mean that everyone in the unit also gets to shoot as if they were only firing at 12".

HurrDurr
24-06-2012, 06:41
What's tricky about playing the game the way it's written? I'm not seeing anything that could even be misinterpreted as that, just to humor the idea that this isn't the real intention, then what would the purpose of that excerpt be?

It doesn't determine the range that the charging unit would take its panic test and flee from(not a real rule just saying), which is the only reason I could even think of for what else considering the range could be used for, if not for determining at what distance the models with longer range weapons open fire from.


Full quote of corner of pg. 17)

A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off.

Lorcryst
24-06-2012, 10:25
Full quote of corner of pg. 17)

A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off.

Very interesting, that would mean the Dwarf Thunderers with Champion equiped with Brace of Pistols do indeed shoot at "short range" with the big guns, meaning they would hit on 4+ (3+ base, -1 for being charged), while the two shots of the Champion would hit on 5+ (4+ base, -1 for being charged) ...

It's a small loophole, but my Dwarf-playing friend will be happy to know it :p

HurrDurr
24-06-2012, 10:40
I just don't consider it a loophole, it's like saying "ah you did double damage to flammable targets with your flaming attack, that's a loophole"

They didn't have to say "the units intentionally hold fire until in range of the shortest ranged weapon" they could of just said "everything shoots, goodnight" or how about "Measure from the start of the charge to determine long or short, ranged weapons that don't reach are treated as long range"

Personally I put this in the same category as redirecting, it's using mechanics.

Artinam
24-06-2012, 12:24
Sorry for keeping to pressure on the original question. The skinks get to shoot even while out of weapon range? Does this mean they technically get to shoot but they can't because of range or does it mean in the stand and shoot phase weaponrange isn't taken into account (would become crazy for things like throwing axes).

BlackPawl
24-06-2012, 12:42
How is a s&s resolved with a Warpfire Thrower Team if the charging unit is out of range? :confused:

Mr_Rose
24-06-2012, 12:54
Sorry for keeping to pressure on the original question. The skinks get to shoot even while out of weapon range? Does this mean they technically get to shoot but they can't because of range or does it mean in the stand and shoot phase weaponrange isn't taken into account (would become crazy for things like throwing axes).

Unless the charging unit is already closer when the charge is declared, all SnS shooting is resolved at the maximum range of the shortest ranged weapon in the unit. If the charging unit takes enough casualties it can panic and, if it does, will run from its position when the charge was declared.
This all happens before anyone rolls for charge reach, BTW; so many people get that wrong, it's like they havent read the rulebook or something.

Artinam
24-06-2012, 14:47
Ah thank you very much :)
So if I get it right. I declare a charge, Skinks declare stand and shoot, which is immediately resolves before we roll charge reach or anything (at the point the charging unit starts). If panic is caused you roll for this first. If the charger does not panic or die due to stand and shoot he roll his charge dice and then its normal (completed or failed charge ect). (that sucks for the thunderers if they have a brace of pistols guy and they are charged from more then 12 inch away).

This would thus mean that you can have charges that are essentially unassailable by stand and shoot (charging a unit with throwing axes 16 inch away means that the receiving unit can essentially do no damage with a stand and shoot. It makes my Bretonnians a bit more interesting if this is the case. Although most units will probably be unable to shoot.

The bearded one
24-06-2012, 14:52
No, all the ranged weapons are fired, even if the enemy is far out of range like with the throwing axes.

I'm quite sure all the issues that came up in this thread are treated quite adequately in the BRB shooting section;

- stand and shoot is worked out when the charger declares a charge and the chargee declare his S&S reaction. Even if it turns out the charger doesn't even make it into the range of their ranged weapons, the weapons are still fired and it is assumed they are fired from the range of the shortest-ranged weapon in the unit; a unit of thunderers with a veteran with pistols will fire as though the enemy is 12" away, meaning the other thunderers will not suffer a long range penalty.

I shall quote page 17 of the BRB on stand&shoot:

"A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off."

Even if the charger never even gets into the maximum range of the stand&shoot unit, the unit still fires, and it will fire as though the opponent got within range of theit shortest-ranged weapon. A hypothetical unit of throwing weapons (12") with 1 model with a throwing axe (6") gets charged by a unit of knights from over 18" away; the unit stands and shoots and fires; this is worked out as if the knights got to within 6", so the throwing weapons fire at short range. Then after all charges are declared and all reactions resolved, the knights roll their charge and it turns out they roll tripple 1's and don't even get close to the maximum range of the unit.

Lorcryst
24-06-2012, 15:58
Thanks The bearded one, now it's crystal clear for me (at least), I'll happily make a note of that and spread the word from now on !

Artinam
24-06-2012, 22:24
Thank you bearded one, makes perfect sense :).

The explanation behind it makes it seem obvious as well. Its a major change from the older rules thats why I kept persisting ;). And yes I know I should forget all previous edition rules, but habits die hard.

Gradek
25-06-2012, 01:19
No, all the ranged weapons are fired, even if the enemy is far out of range like with the throwing axes.

I'm quite sure all the issues that came up in this thread are treated quite adequately in the BRB shooting section;

- stand and shoot is worked out when the charger declares a charge and the chargee declare his S&S reaction. Even if it turns out the charger doesn't even make it into the range of their ranged weapons, the weapons are still fired and it is assumed they are fired from the range of the shortest-ranged weapon in the unit; a unit of thunderers with a veteran with pistols will fire as though the enemy is 12" away, meaning the other thunderers will not suffer a long range penalty.

I shall quote page 17 of the BRB on stand&shoot:

"A stand and shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off."

Even if the charger never even gets into the maximum range of the stand&shoot unit, the unit still fires, and it will fire as though the opponent got within range of theit shortest-ranged weapon. A hypothetical unit of throwing weapons (12") with 1 model with a throwing axe (6") gets charged by a unit of knights from over 18" away; the unit stands and shoots and fires; this is worked out as if the knights got to within 6", so the throwing weapons fire at short range. Then after all charges are declared and all reactions resolved, the knights roll their charge and it turns out they roll tripple 1's and don't even get close to the maximum range of the unit.

Which is why you always upgrade your Empire Outriders sharpshooter to have the brace and repeater pistol. This lets your other outriders shoot at short range for their 12 shots (assuming 4 regulars and 1 champ).

T10
25-06-2012, 11:23
There is a rather comprehensive thread on this subject here:

Dwarf Thunderer Champions (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?314519-Dwarf-Thunderer-Champions)

I know a lot of people get all hot and bothered about the prospect of making their S&S at a faux short thanks to the presence of a poor-range weapon. This kind of "Wait for it!" charge reaction was a part of 7th edition (the charging unit was effectively halted at the range where all models able and allowed to shoot were in range), so I can see why people would want to bring it into 8th as well.

For your convenience, a rules quote:


A Stand and Shoot reaction can be declared against an enemy unit that starts its charge outside the firing unit's maximum range - the shooting is resolved normally assuming the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon. If the charge fails, for whatever reason, we assume that the chargers closed to within the weapons' maximum range before being driven off.

Now, in any S&S the chargers will either a) start outside the maximum range of the unit or b) within range of one or more models.

In the case of a) there are rules about how out-of-range weapons get to shoot at their maximum range, and this part is kind of open to interpretation towards the "Wait for it!" mechanic. I say "kind of" because a lot of people do, and I don't think they are idiots; they obviously see something here. I guess it's something like this:


"...the [unit's] shooting is resolved normally [by] assuming [that] the enemy is just within maximum range of the shooting unit's shortest-ranged weapon [for each shooting model]."

In case of b) the rules say... nothing. Apparently no exception to normal shooting applies if some models are out of range, and for normal shooting that means they don't get to shoot.

Personally, I think they should have kept S&S shooting on a model-by-model basis rather than involving the unit level. I don't see the problem with some models shooting at long range and others at short range (you know, just like normal shooting) with the added clause that any models with out-of-range weapons get also to shoot at their weapon's maximum range - because the target is essentially moving from out-of-range into close combat!

-T10

MLP
25-06-2012, 13:39
Normally it's the unit champion with the shorter range pistol or whatever, so I just asume that the champion has taken control of his men and to them to hold their fire until he shoots. That's how I explain it to my opponents who don't like the rule anyway.

It would be good if there was a bit more to stand and shoot, like a leadership test to see what range they fire at. The champaion might want them to hold fire until his shot, doesn't mean they will!

Danny76
26-06-2012, 18:41
As quoted above. It doesn't matter if out of range.
They shoot and you treat the shot as if it was just inside their range (So no measuring needs to take place for the shots, unless you are checking the range of longrange weapons because of a pistol etc, you just get to fire).

bad dice
28-06-2012, 08:26
Yes, and the rest of his unit has to wait to shoot untill then as well.
Page 17, bottom left hand side

The tricky bit is getting your dwarf opponent to realise that just because his champion stands and shoots at 12", it doesn't mean that everyone in the unit also gets to shoot as if they were only firing at 12".

Then you would be cheating
You count as standing an shooting at the max ragne of the shortes ranges weapon in the unit. In this case 12. So +1 to hit for those thunderers.

I know stupid rule but the truth

dms505
28-06-2012, 14:49
It used to just have the chargers move half the distance and then check the shooting range to see if they could shoot and whether they got any negatives. The newer rules have sped things up but also dumbed it down to the point where some rules don't make since in physical terms.

T10
28-06-2012, 14:58
Then you would be cheating
You count as standing an shooting at the max ragne of the shortes ranges weapon in the unit. In this case 12. So +1 to hit for those thunderers.

I know stupid rule but the truth

Debatable, but even assuming this is true it only applies if the chargers start outside the maximum range of the thunderers, that is: more than 24" away. See post 27 above.