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rocdocta
20-06-2012, 02:10
i have only played a couple of games with the new VC. I go all excited and have been trying new things but then have found that i wished i just stuk to my tried and true wights for support. i will play a few more games and see how i go to make sure that i wasnt just unlucky.

The bad
Vargeists
S5 vampiric flyers with stomp?! yes please! but finding a suitable target that they dont frenzy towards is very hard. on one hand they should be on a flank to make the most of vampiric. But on the other hand they just charge big blocks, do some damage and then die. sort of like an expendable missile of sorts. S4 doesnt really cut it as the amount of S5 or S6 GWs is massive. i can kill 9 enemey models but the Vargs will die second combat phase. maybe i could turn and face backwards when they land until i want to assault. they really need hatred.

Terror and fear bombing
-1ld and 3d6 for fear tests and reroll passed tests?! yes please! but leadership 10 = now 9. i have never had anyone fail it! i thought that it would be almost auto fail for them! but it seems not.

Corpse carts
i play an aggressive style but the carts cant keep up unless i danse them closer. which may or may not come off. i have tried starting them at the front to keep them within range but that doesnt last long. maybe it would work better vs a CC only enemy.

Zombies
i started with units of 20. in one game i was adding 4d6+8 a turn for 3 turns! the next game i added a total of 7 to each unit for the whole game. kept failing by 1.

Non invoke or danse magic
i find myself ignoring the other spells for the 2 above. more skellies and zombies or the others? i vote staying power.

The good
Having a wraith in 3 units means fear tests and no answer for challenges to champs for most armies.

i am going back to the drawing board and will try and use my old army but with a twist.

NitrosOkay
20-06-2012, 02:40
Stacking all the fear modifiers works really well against some armies. Totally depends on who you're playing.

Vargheists I'm not so big on. Corpse Carts are better for a slow, infantry grinding Vampire list, you can vanhel's them up if you need to. Zombies are amazing if you have them tarpit the right things, wouldn't go 100% Zombies are core though.

Rosstifer
20-06-2012, 03:35
How many Varghiests are you running?

rocdocta
20-06-2012, 04:50
i was running 4 plus a champ. roughly 2 a turn would die.

Mikael.K
20-06-2012, 08:04
Fear/terror bomb has worked great for me, but vs some armies its useless. Still, its a good way of adding additional protection for your unit and maximizing damage output on the opposing unit. Works best for a knight bus.

Vargheists im convinced works best in small units as they are so expensive. A small unit of 3 you can afford to lose, a unit of say, 6 is another story. Still, some play big units to great effect.

I play with comp scores so zombies get hammered pretty hard in there. I usually go with a small unit as bunker and go for ghouls and wolves as my core. Works pretty good :). I can see massed zombie spam working to a great effect, even though some units will go through them like a hot knife through butter.

Invokation vs danse you say? Why not both? I always get the book of arkhan for my necromancer. Usually I always choose invokation unless I happen to roll for a vanhels. I high level caster usually gets it anyway. Lots of low level casters, then go with the book to be sure. Vanhels is what makes my ghouls work so good so its vital for me.

Kayosiv
20-06-2012, 08:09
I run a unit of three and in half a dozen games they have been valuable. They die about half the time, to the point that I think I'm going to bump up the unit to 4, but they are always useful and kill more than their paltry point cost. I have yet to have them fail a frenzy test. Spinning them around backwards is extremely helpful.

For me, skeletal infantry has consistently failed me. Both skeletons and grave guard ranged from blocks of 30 to 50 just seem to die without accomplishing much that zombies wouldn't. Grave guard of course do more, but draw so much enemy fire because they know they can ignore all my other infantry they are ususally too weak to fight my opponents elites. Since my regular troops are no match for other armies regular troops it makes winning with them very difficult. I have written an experimental list with 0 skeletons in it other than a unit of black knights, but have yet to play a game.

NitrosOkay
20-06-2012, 08:19
I run a unit of three and in half a dozen games they have been valuable. They die about half the time, to the point that I think I'm going to bump up the unit to 4, but they are always useful and kill more than their paltry point cost. I have yet to have them fail a frenzy test. Spinning them around backwards is extremely helpful.

For me, skeletal infantry has consistently failed me. Both skeletons and grave guard ranged from blocks of 30 to 50 just seem to die without accomplishing much that zombies wouldn't. Grave guard of course do more, but draw so much enemy fire because they know they can ignore all my other infantry they are ususally too weak to fight my opponents elites. Since my regular troops are no match for other armies regular troops it makes winning with them very difficult. I have written an experimental list with 0 skeletons in it other than a unit of black knights, but have yet to play a game.

I never put my Vampires in units of Grave Guard. I run a big unit of Zombies and two big Skeleton units at 2,999 points, plus a big horde of great weapon Grave Guard.

The Vampires go in the skeleton units (with the screaming banner in one of them) and they instantly make the skeletons threatening. The Grave Guard with great weapons don't need characters to be threatening. That way I have three threatening infantry units, with Zombies to tarpit things.

Frankly
20-06-2012, 08:53
Vargeists
S5 vampiric flyers with stomp?! yes please! but finding a suitable target that they dont frenzy towards is very hard. on one hand they should be on a flank to make the most of vampiric. But on the other hand they just charge big blocks, do some damage and then die. sort of like an expendable missile of sorts. S4 doesnt really cut it as the amount of S5 or S6 GWs is massive. i can kill 9 enemey models but the Vargs will die second combat phase. maybe i could turn and face backwards when they land until i want to assault. they really need hatred.


I run vargiests in two armylists in units of 6 with a champion.

In my master necro list they work as a secondary hammer unit backing up my GG unit. Once they get buffed they really go to town on flanks. For me the list is all about getting those buffs up on my units and a fly units can get into a good position to get a solid amout of buffs, incuding M.engines regen. The other thing is its much easier to through them the odd heal with when the magic his your primary phase.

The second list I've been running 2 x 6 vargiest with champ. I actually made this list just to try out our new flyers:

zombies

wolves

2 x vargiest

Black knights

(sometimes hosts)

2 x TG

2 x H.steed thralls(one bsb)

1 x H.steed lord

I think in the context of a mobile list vargiests really shine, with a mobile Lord/bsb, Vargiest have options to move alittle more freely to get into position for concentrated assaults on weaker targets. With most of the list being mobile or included for table top control it means there alot more scope for a player to use the Vargiest mobility to get into right combats, which is (imho) a must since they're paying heavily for the unit being a flyer and thats its only really protection.

One of the big down falls of the unit is that it just doesn't hold up in frontal charges against alot of rank and file units, theres very little in the way of good combat situations for Vargiests when charging head on into rank and file(unless heavily supported). In general if not played in the mobile list they're a much better unit to hold back in range of your general/bsb until, theres a flanking option opening up, they can get to the opponents back field, they can hunt down depleted units, etc etc. In the normal list I think they work better in a mid-game supportive role for a player's main hammer unit than an out and out heavy hitting combat unit.

Vipoid
20-06-2012, 12:05
Terror and fear bombing
-1ld and 3d6 for fear tests and reroll passed tests?! yes please! but leadership 10 = now 9. i have never had anyone fail it! i thought that it would be almost auto fail for them! but it seems not.


For a while my VC army included a massive horde of skeletons with screaming banner, and an attached vampire with Fear Incarnate and Supernatural Horror (so that he could inflict fear on units that have fear themselves). I even had a Vampire Lord with Aura of Dark Majesty (he was in a different squad, but generally near enough to affect any unit in combat with the skellies). Over the course of about 20 games, it worked precisely 0 times. Either the unit they were against were naturally immune to psychology (Daemons, Slaanesh), or they had terror (naturally or through a banner), or they had frenzy (good luck removing it with skeletons), or they just rolled well on 3d6 and had a BSB nearby to cancel the reroll.

Basically, I was wasting:
25pts on the Banner
25pts on Aura of Dark Majesty on the Vampire Lord
~200pts on a Vampire, who existed only to hand out fear (admittedly the vampire could theoretically do other things, but as a lv1 wizard and with no quickblood or magic weapons, he rarely did anything worthwhile)

So, at 2000pts, 1/8 of my army was making no significant contribution to the games.

As it stands, I've basically dismissed fear as a gimmick that might, if the stars align properly, do something remotely useful. It's nice when it works, but I don't rely upon it working or attempt to make it work more reliably.

NitrosOkay
20-06-2012, 12:33
As it stands, I've basically dismissed fear as a gimmick that might, if the stars align properly, do something remotely useful. It's nice when it works, but I don't rely upon it working or attempt to make it work more reliably.

I honestly have to disagree. I've gotten fear to work a number of times. In my experience my grave guard attract a ton of attention from nasty/frenzied units while my 5-wide skeleton bus breaks and runs down a unit my opponent wasn't expecting to break then hits the flanks. I'll explain.

There's a few things I would say about it, I take a Vampire hero with a 2+ armour anyway so aura of dark majesty comes out of a character who has a lot of mediocre stuff to choose from (Quickblood isn't bad on a hero but with vanhel's and corpse carts around not all that). Fear Incarnate comes after Quickblood and Red Fury on my Lord where the alternatives are basically beguile or dread knight. Beguile is alright but I prefer it on my hero since he's in much more danger of dying.

Screaming Banner comes out of your core allowance, it's hardly a better buy to go for 5 more skeletons or 2 ghouls.

The vast majority of armies you face won't be immune to fear. I fight a lot of Empire, Skaven, Chaos, Beastmen, Lizards and Elves myself. Maybe if all your buddies all play daemons and tomb kings or something.

I take a Banshee, which naturally synergizes with aura of dark majesty and provides terror and attacks denial to boot.

If your opponent fails his fear test (It honestly happens at least once a game for me, most armies are leadership 9 which becomes 8, LD8 fails roughly 50% of the time on 3d6 remove the lowest) against the big bus formation of HW/S skeletons with Vampire Lord and Banshee inside, they're almost assuredly going to lose combat badly and won't be steadfast. Aura of Dark Majesty helps that break test.

There's a few things that help, like doing everything possible to murder your opponent's BSB, tarpitting important threats with Zombies and never lining up your screaming banner against your opponent's frenzied unit(s).

I can't help but feel you were using fear in sub-optimal ways. For me, my investment in fear consists of 25 points of core, 20 points of lords and 25 points of heroes. I usually play at 2,999 points and it's an almost negligible investment. All of those heroes I'd be taking anyway.

Vipoid
20-06-2012, 13:14
There's a few things I would say about it, I take a Vampire hero with a 2+ armour anyway so aura of dark majesty comes out of a character who has a lot of mediocre stuff to choose from (Quickblood isn't bad on a hero but with vanhel's and corpse carts around not all that). Fear Incarnate comes after Quickblood and Red Fury on my Lord where the alternatives are basically beguile or dread knight. Beguile is alright but I prefer it on my hero since he's in much more danger of dying.

Interesting - you build your vampires very differently to mine then.

With my vampire lord, Quickblood is always first, then usually red fury. That leaves 20pts, which I usually just spend on beguile.

My hero vampires are usually built for combat, so quickblood is first again, and then usually beguile (since T4, 2 wounds isn't very survivable), but potentially Fear Incarnate.



Screaming Banner comes out of your core allowance, it's hardly a better buy to go for 5 more skeletons or 2 ghouls.

The fact that it comes out of your core allowance is indeed nice, but if the enemy army is immune to fear, then the extra 5 skeletons would still be the better buy.


The vast majority of armies you face won't be immune to fear. I fight a lot of Empire, Skaven, Chaos, Beastmen, Lizards and Elves myself. Maybe if all your buddies all play daemons and tomb kings or something.

Perhaps the vast majority of armies you face, or the vast majority of armies in the game won't be immune to fear, but I assure you the majority of armies I face *are*.

I regularly face Chaos Daemons, Slaanesh or Khorne WoC (Immune to psychology and frenzy, respectively), Bretonnians that include grail knights (Immune to Psychology), and a different squad with the terror banner, Skaven with plague monks and plague censer-bearers (frenzy), and Dwarves (good Lord! Fear might actually work :eek:). Not the best selection for getting fear to work.




If your opponent fails his fear test (It honestly happens at least once a game for me, most armies are leadership 9 which becomes 8, LD8 fails roughly 50% of the time on 3d6 remove the lowest) against the big bus formation of HW/S skeletons with Vampire Lord and Banshee inside, they're almost assuredly going to lose combat badly and won't be steadfast. Aura of Dark Majesty helps that break test.

One thing I will try is putting my vampire lord with my skeletons - usually he goes with my grave guard.




There's a few things that help, like doing everything possible to murder your opponent's BSB, tarpitting important threats with Zombies and never lining up your screaming banner against your opponent's frenzied unit(s).

That works up to a point, but when your opponent's entire army is frenzied or immune to psychology, then it really doesn't matter what you line your skeletons up with. Similarly, against armies like Bretonnia, which is considerably more maneuverable, it's a lot easier for my opponent to pick his fights.




I can't help but feel you were using fear in sub-optimal ways. For me, my investment in fear consists of 25 points of core, 20 points of lords and 25 points of heroes. I usually play at 2,999 points and it's an almost negligible investment. All of those heroes I'd be taking anyway.

Entirely possible. I'd be taking the vampire lord anyway, but giving him aura prevented him from taking red fury. if I'd taken the vampire, then he'd have been kitted out very differently (much more offensively, rather than just defense and fear).


Anyway, i can see that fear works well for you. However, I'd argue that it's very dependent on your meta - sometimes you face either a good mix of armies, or a lot of armies that are vulnerable to fear. On the other hand, if you face a lot of Daemons, undead and/or terror/frenzy/Immune to Psychology units, then fear is probably going to do nothing, regardless of how much you invest in it.