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flain
06-06-2005, 18:54
At the moment I do quite well with my Dwarfs, but never reach the actual top at the tournaments. Especially the following armies are a pain: bretonians (with an all lance army), TK, VC, empire gunline
When I know I have to play against them, I have a chance to beat them. But on a tournament I am happy when I get a draw against them.

Do more Dwarf players have the same problem or am I playing with the wrong list?

Festus
06-06-2005, 19:08
So, what is your list then?

Greetings
FEstus

Lady's Champion
06-06-2005, 19:11
Well, my Brets always lose to Dwarfs and my Knights are cannoned it's dead easy with the Lance Formation

flain
07-06-2005, 10:45
My list currently consists of:

Lord 1+ save, 4+ ward, GW
runesmith, 2x spellbreaking, stone
runesmtih, balance, stone

20 warriors heavy, shield, full command
10 thunderers, shield
10 thunderers, shield

20 ironbreaker, full command, courage
stone thrower
stone thrower

flame cannon
gyrocopter

However, this list sucks as I lack combat power. My current plan is:

same lord and runesmiths

3x 20 warriors with full command and all options

20 slayers

2 stone throwers
flame cannon
organ gun

WLBjork
08-06-2005, 13:20
I think that you are relying too much on the WMs. You've invested some 535 points in there - which is what, over 25% of your army?

WMs have plenty of killing potential, but bad rolls can make them useless.

Personally I would drop one stonethrower (I should point out here that multiple Stonethrowers at this size are often considered cheesy) and the Flame Cannon, and spend the freed up points on Crossbows or Handgunners.

I'd also drop the Slayers - they are useful if they can survive, but they are extremely fragile due to their lack of armour. They struggle to deal with armoured enemies due to thier lack of Strength.

In their place I'd look at taking some miners (10 should be adequate) to deal with enemy WMs, and you should have enough points remaining to upgrade one regiment of Warriors to either Hammerers with shields (my prefered option) or Longbeards - these will be better at dealing with blocks of Cavalry as they get S4, S6 with GW, as well as WS5.

Quick calculation: Slayers + Stonethrower + Flame Cannon = 445

Option 1 Upgrade 1 Warriors rgt. to Hammerers with shields, 20 Crossbows, 10 Miners = 445

Option 2 Upgrade 1 Warriors rgt. to Longbeards, 10 Crossbows, 10 Thunderers, 10 Miners = 445


NB> What armour are your Runesmiths using (I've assumed Gromril + Shield)? What points are you playing? My calculations for those lists are 1759 and 1794 points respectively - if playing games below 2K then you aren't allowed any Lords...

Badgobbla
09-06-2005, 12:01
As it stands Dwarves are a difficult army to win massacres with. They normally have good armour saves and weapon skill, but against the specialised armies (chaos, beastmen,...) they tend to be just a tad bad.

As the Dwarf codex was the first to have been done of all the codices AND by Gav, it gave me the impression of being sligworse than some of the newer codices.

Arnizipal
09-06-2005, 12:21
As the Dwarf codex was the first to have been done of all the codices AND by Gav, it gave me the impression of being sligworse than some of the newer codices.
Weren't Empire and Greenskins the first armybooks to be redone for 6th edition?

Gorog Irongut
09-06-2005, 16:00
My list currently consists of:

Lord 1+ save, 4+ ward, GW
runesmith, 2x spellbreaking, stone
runesmtih, balance, stone

20 warriors heavy, shield, full command
10 thunderers, shield
10 thunderers, shield

20 ironbreaker, full command, courage
stone thrower
stone thrower

flame cannon
gyrocopter

However, this list sucks as I lack combat power. My current plan is:

same lord and runesmiths

3x 20 warriors with full command and all options

20 slayers

2 stone throwers
flame cannon
organ gun

I'll play off of your first list as it is the one that I like the most.
Drop the:
Flame Cannon
1 Stone thrower/ put rune of accuracy and penetration on the other
Bring in a cannon w/ rune of forging
bring in a unit of 10 slayers w/ one giant slayer (for challenging characters and thereby allowing your tarpit to last another turn)
Bring in a unit of Miners 10 to 12 strong
Bring in a thane of pain w/ battle standard
Spend the rest of your remaining points on thunderers
(you might even want to convert that unit of warriors into thunderers).

You might want to go check out bugmans brewery as it is the home of all things dwarf. Lots of good advice.

gortexgunnerson
14-06-2005, 12:18
You have far too many points in rune smiths! 2 is a waste of points and as is the rune of balance! Wityh dwarfs you have to relie ont he fact your T4 and ahve good armour and weather the storm as you cross the battle field. I'd also drop the flame cannon and gyro as both are expensive! and limtied in range! Get a couple fo bolt throwers! they are cheap and very affactive and taking out knight e.g. great anti bretonnian weapon

Freak Ona Leash
14-06-2005, 20:37
2 is a waste of points? At Bugsy's(before I was booted :cries: ) they were considered essential. Able to defend themselves and with the dispel dice, they are beastly against magicky armies like Necarah and whatnot. The MRo Balance might be a bit much and the organ gun is total crap. I suggest dropping it. Too much chance for misfire wioth not enough damage OR range.

gortexgunnerson
15-06-2005, 11:20
Dwarfs hold the top 2 position in every tournment at our store and I play with 1 and the other guy plays with 0. Runes of santuary or warding are much more affective as give extra dice for every spell! You need your character slots to give you punch ont he attack! Thats the difference between winning with dwarfs and masscreing! To win you can just block their magic and return fire with shooting and then when you get into combat you fair alittle better then your oppenet and win! To masscre you need to cut down and kill anythign you get your hands on! And for that I think a killer lord, a tooled BsB are essential. If you then want 2 runesmiths feel free to put them in but the BsB should be in long before the runesmiths as turns a unit into a unit destroyer lol

Coriolanus
17-06-2005, 23:54
The hardest part of getting a massacre with dwarfs is catching the enemy when you beat him and he runs away. We dwarfs have no cavalary and substract one from our pursuit. The only exception is the gyrocopter. Hold it in reserve and throw it in when the HTH starts. It is great for running down the enemy with its 3d6 pursuit.

Having said that I once charged a screen of skinks with dwarf warriors. They fled the charge but rolled snake eyes so my original charge hit them and they were destroyed. On the Overrun I rolled an 11 (minus 1) and crashed into a unit of salamanders 10 inches away and destroyed them too. It was great fun. Those warriors must have been on the dwarf track team.

BullBuchanan
18-06-2005, 00:35
You have far too many points in rune smiths! 2 is a waste of points and as is the rune of balance! Wityh dwarfs you have to relie ont he fact your T4 and ahve good armour and weather the storm as you cross the battle field. I'd also drop the flame cannon and gyro as both are expensive! and limtied in range! Get a couple fo bolt throwers! they are cheap and very affactive and taking out knight e.g. great anti bretonnian weapon

god I hate people who abuse exclamation points.....

Frankly
18-06-2005, 07:48
I constantly play against a veteran Dwarf army. This is the basic's he uses for his tournament winning army.

Lord, GW, ward save.

BSB

Rune smith anti-magic
Rune smith anti-magic

Core
units of 20 warriors

units of 10 xbowmen

Often there will be a unit of rangers or miners in the list.

Specials
6 bolt throwers
1 runed catapult(or another 2 bolt throwers)

rares
2 gyrocopters

Xbowmen go for supporting units like lightcavalry or they're knock off a rank bonus from core units. they seem a fanastic fleeing option troop, because they always really afterwards.

6-8 bolt throwers are brutal to face for anyone, they never misfire and deal out alot of damage against heavy cavalry and infantry alike. He'll either take 6 bolt throwers and a catacpult runed against misfire and/or shatter or just all B.throwers, either way its enough to deal enough damage to an opponants armylist to give hm a good advantage in combat.

His hero choices are made up to strengthen his list and thats it. He says a BSB is a must have along with a good amount of anti-magic.

Big ricko is a constant tournament player and often does well with his dwarfs at tournamment level using basic tactic of negating march moves, concentrating firing, negating his opponants supporting magic.

Hope this helps.

gortexgunnerson
18-06-2005, 15:45
Bulbuchanan, Glad you can offer such insight to a foreum on tactics. Please either keep it civil and say 'hey try not to use as many exclamation marks' or please only refer to the issue at hand.

Yer the list above is good and he is right that BsB are essential to a competetive Dwarf army, but I feel that he lacks the missile fire to force the oppenet to come to him. Which means the extra speed of the gyros in negated as a defense magic/missile army just remains in its deployment zone. The 6-8 bolt throwers can be limited by deploying troops in long thin lines and then retreating. The warriors will never see combat if his oppenet doesn't want them to. This gives the problem that started this thread, this army will win most games but if the oppenent doesn't engage the warriors the gyros have nothing to run down, therefore its just its shooting against their shooting and magic.

In my 2000 point that qualified for the GT final last year (swapped armies for the final) I took a similar amount of artillery but 40 missile troops. I think the key is to have enough missile fire that your oppenet cannot avoid combat. If they stay still and fire fight it your Str 4 weapons and Ld 9 should best even and empire gun line.

Cheers

Frankly
19-06-2005, 08:49
He takes about 30 -40 x-bowmen and 6-8 bolt throwers ... thats usually enough ranged attacks.

gortexgunnerson
19-06-2005, 11:36
Yer thats about sounds good to me. Sorry thought it was just 1 unit of crossbows. Is a very similar list to mine except the gyros which I'm not a great fan of. They are great for running down troops but have a big target on their forehead and at 125 they can't be thrown away

Frankly
20-06-2005, 14:42
He's pretty keen on throwing them away if it means negating march moves and having an extra turn or two of shooting with those war machines. He's throwing away 125pts to get an extra turn of shooting with around 600pts and warmachines, a pretty good trade off.

Pretty much any thing thats mobile in his army is used the block marches over turn an enemy unit.

bored1
20-06-2005, 17:02
I'm going to go out on a limb and point out a simple fact. Look at GT scores (pick an area...US, UK, wherever). Then take a look at the top 10 finishers. Even more importantly, look at the top 10 battle scores. Look at the top 20. How many dwarfs do you see?

Do you suppose the reason is because there are 0 - very few good dwarf players at GTs? Or do you suppose it is because the good players realize that dwarfs play with a handicap? hmmm...

So no, I don't think dwarfs can ever be as competitive as VC, Skaven, Lizardmen, Daemonic Legions, Beastmen, Brets, and some others. Can they win games? Yes. Can they win tournaments? Maybe. Can they win GTs? Not really in the current environment.

Tormentor of Slaanesh
20-06-2005, 18:08
Well as I see it with dwarfs you have several holding units. I have 15 slayers with 4 champions, 20 warriors led by a s5, 4a hero and some hammerers led by my unkillable lord. they can all hold their own.
gyrcopters are great, they can massacre elves and human infantry. the running down thing is a problem. However killing loads means that units cannot rally, ie; below 25%. what do we do about missle troops and warmachines?

Lady's Champion
21-06-2005, 21:38
Get them with the gyrocopter Tormentor!

Tormentor of Slaanesh
22-06-2005, 14:53
you can only damage units but it takes many turns to kill a unit. It's not worth it.

Frankly
22-06-2005, 15:26
Do you suppose the reason is because there are 0 - very few good dwarf players at GTs? Or do you suppose it is because the good players realize that dwarfs play with a handicap? hmmm...



I wonder how many people turn up dwarf armylists to tournaments, its pretty rare around my neck of the woods.

Sariel
22-06-2005, 15:58
Do more Dwarf players have the same problem or am I playing with the wrong list?



Flain - I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with bored1 here, and say that you're playing with the wrong army.. :(


Let's start with bored1's post...



'm going to go out on a limb and point out a simple fact. Look at GT scores (pick an area...US, UK, wherever). Then take a look at the top 10 finishers. Even more importantly, look at the top 10 battle scores. Look at the top 20. How many dwarfs do you see?

Do you suppose the reason is because there are 0 - very few good dwarf players at GTs? Or do you suppose it is because the good players realize that dwarfs play with a handicap? hmmm...

So no, I don't think dwarfs can ever be as competitive as VC, Skaven, Lizardmen, Daemonic Legions, Beastmen, Brets, and some others. Can they win games? Yes. Can they win tournaments? Maybe. Can they win GTs? Not really in the current environment.



Even in a halfway-competitive setting like a RTT (never mind the no-holds-barred competition you'd see in a European GTs), Dwarfs are at a handicap. Thing is, you don't really see "good" dwarf players because there are'nt any.

Now, before I have to start dodging crossbow bolts, let me expand on that -

1) There are no "good" dwarf players. There are dwarf players who are just getting into the swing of things, and there are competent veteran players who've got a good handle on the way a Dwarf army works. Trouble is....

2) There's only so much you can DO with a Dwarf army.

Imho, most of the skill in a dwarf army lies in designing the list, followed by (to a much lesser extent) deployment.

Beyond basic march-blocking with gyros, and possibly throwing in a unit of Miners to help nail enemy war machines, that's pretty much it. Everything else in the army piles up into one corner.

Its not as if the Dwarf general has to worry about flanking, coordinating charges or baiting enemy cavalry so he can countercharge, after all.. ;)


I know what MY standard anti-dwarf tactics are, especially in a tournament setting:


1) I take out the war machines, hopefully without loosing too many units. War machines are expensive, and relatively soft targets. Definitely easier than going after ranked Dwarven infantry!

With luck, that's enough for me to get by with a draw, at which point I'm content, especially if my army focuses on close combat. I'll just hope the next match-up gives me a chance to catch up.


2) If there are any isolated units (thunderers and crossbows, basically), I might go for them. Otherwise, I'll just pull back and wait till time runs out, after whacking the gyros and jumping all over the Miners if and when they appear.

If I have any artillery and/or magic, in which case I'll just focus on bombarding one unit at a time.

(You know its bad when an OK army is able to outshoot Dwarves......Gorgers smashed up his two cannon and stonethrower, at which point the scraplaunchers came out from behind a hill and started dropping cutlery on the Dwarves....)


At NO POINT am I going to even consider engaging ranked Dwarven infantry - not really a problem since I don't bring Khornate armies to tournaments, and its not as if I have to worry about Dwarves coming after ME! :D

Thing is, unless I have a truly overwhelming advantage (heavy cavalry to the front, flank and/or rear bonuses preferably negating ranks), its generally a loosing proposition, even with combined charges from multiple Bret lances.

bored1
23-06-2005, 05:43
Thing is, unless I have a truly overwhelming advantage (heavy cavalry to the front, flank and/or rear bonuses preferably negating ranks), its generally a loosing proposition, even with combined charges from multiple Bret lances.

Sariel's got all my points. On the above, I figure to consistently beat a ranked unit of 20 Dwarf warriors w/ hw shield within the general's radius, I would need 2 lances of errants (in an errantry list) and a unit of pegasi in the flank or rear. By the numbers, I'd win by about 6-7, which would leave them testing on 3-4. But remove the pegasi, and I'm only winning by 3-4 (the pegasi provide a swing of flank/rear and 1-2 wounds).

Scabby
23-06-2005, 19:17
Weren't Empire and Greenskins the first armybooks to be redone for 6th edition?
Greenskins was the first written but Empire was the first released. Thus quoted Rik Priestley from White Dwarf. Dwarfs weren't the first but they still have an excellent army book. Great in one-off games but not tournaments as they reward speed.

Frankly
24-06-2005, 01:52
Do you guys think there is a type of dwarven list that could do well at a tournament?

I play against a very good veteran opponant who has brought along some very nice army lists in the past.

Has anyone else seen some harder darf armylists outside of tournaments?