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EcoWarrior
25-06-2012, 10:49
2000 Pts - Vampire Counts Roster

Master Necromancer
1 Master Necromancer, (General; Master of the Dead; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Lore of the Vampires

Necromancer
1 Necromancer,
1 Ironcurse Icon
1 Lore of the Vampires

1 Cairn Wraith,

Spirit Host
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)

Skeleton Warriors
35 Skeleton Warriors, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
1 Screaming Banner

Zombie Horde A
38 Zombies, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std;
Zombie Horde B
38 Zombies, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std;
Zombie Horde C
20 Zombies, Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves,
Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves,

Grave Guard
35 Grave Guard, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Great Weapon;

Crypt Horrors
9 Crypt Horrors,

The plan:
The zombie unit C will be the mage bunker in single file 1x20 or 2x10 depending on setup. They will go behind the rest of my army. The reason they are in such thin lines is to jump around the unit have access to any unit they need to buff. (I was thinking of having a level 1 or 2 lore of fire vampire for those monsters with regen till i realised spirit hosts do the job just as well, also it would be taking dice away from my invocation. I will start my magic phase by taunting the opponent to use dice with offensive magic but saving enough if i can to cast 2 IoN a turn.
Zombie unit A and B will be with either the grave guard or crypt horrors to take a charge if need be. Also will try and get these up to as many as i can throughout turn 1 and 2 before continuous combat starts.
The Carin wraith hero will go with the skeletons because his terror will now make even ogres have to test for fear with the 3d6 (i didnt choose fear bomb vamp because its to many points). Also he can charge out at any chaff or monsters incomming.
Spirit hosts will be for getting rid of chaff/holding up monsters.
The dire wolves will be for redirecting. mainly next to the zombie units so they can have an extra turn of IoN to increase numbers as much as possible.

What i didnt get and why:
I did think about taking a corpse cart for ASF but they move way to slow even if i put them at the fornt of the army they end up behind or dead by turn 3. If people can prove to me they work and how to use them that would be great but i just dont see the point in them for 90 points atm.
The bsb, i didnt take one because either way i planned it out e.g. white king bsb 50/45 pts of armour/shield comes to 164, my vampire which i would either make my fire wizard/bsb would come to 161 or 200-211 pts with magic armour. I personally think for that amount of points and only -1 crumble i can get a level 1 necro + alot more infantry or just alot more infantry.
I was thinking of a black coach for something that is really good to hit units but i cant afford losing PD in my magic phase with a crumbly army.

Whats your opinions on this, how could i improve it?

Moss
25-06-2012, 12:46
Does that thing with the necro bunker actually work? Seems to me that you're just making it easier to reach the bunker wirh anything fast. And without the CR from ranks, I'd bet it makes the bunker easy to kill, even with units not really designed for real combat. Or am I way off the mark with that?

And the coach doesn't siphon PD anymore.

logan054
25-06-2012, 12:57
Apart for the grave guard what do you have to actually killing anything? screaming banner is a great idea until you face something immune to dear and terror, what are you going to do if you face a elite combat army? they will just rip through your units.

EcoWarrior
25-06-2012, 14:08
define elite because i have used crypt horrors as my other smashy unit, i know they are only S4 but the sheer amount of poison attacks they have has worked for me so far. Unless you can suggest another heavy hitting/elite killing unit ?
I refuse to take black knights, they are to expensive for what they do, hexwraiths to vulnerable to magic and only res 1 a turn. vargulf imo are crappy hydras, Varghiests are to fast for your necro's to keep up with themand T4 makes them easy targets.
Would you suggest another unit of GG, if so they will suck witout the +1 to hit banner, well not suck but be alot less effective. What other units can i take to be effective against elite combat armies really ?
You cant say well what if they are immune to terror or fear because there are allways things like that, its one of those IF they are mostly against horde armies they will work alot better. Yes i know against demons it will suck but against any army that isnt it will be more affective.

The bunker wont see combat if i can help it, if i do feel like it will i have 5 chaff units to help out with that and if its really going up ***** creek i can throw them out of it before i see combat. It has allways worked for me, start them off cheap and build them if you want it doesnt really matter if they get big or not. Just have enough to soak up some fire power because they will be moving along with your army.

My mistake about the black coach i never paid much attention to it tbh because of its costs and it can die so fast to static combat res.

meowser
25-06-2012, 14:27
I think this is a quite balanced and solid list. While you lack the mobile punch you get from Vampire characters, Varghulfs, and such, the Horrors and Grave Guard will be rock solid. I find 8 Horrors is quite often an adequate size (whenever they die; 10 would have died in the same turn anyways; and that's once in every 6 games or so -- letting them eat bret dual charges, etc), so you might want to consider swapping him out for 3 more GG or a fell bat unit, or even better yet: cursed book on the master necromancer (and put the scroll on the hero nec)

logan054
25-06-2012, 14:30
Crypt horrors are not a hammer, they are strength 4, looking at your list and thinking about my standard chaos list I can't see a single unit that would present any real issues and my list isn't even competitive, the list is relying far to much on raising, all any player needs to do it stop that and your units will fall apart very quickly. You have basically just written off half the book for no reason, vargheists are better than crypts, faster, stronger, more attacks, higher ws, skirmished and vampires. Varghulfs are actually pretty good! they are very different to hydras (aside the fact hydras are unbalanced), its a fast moving unit you can use to support your units in combat , go after warmachines or even mage hunt (hatred, stomp and S5 will kill most wizards). what about Terrorgheists so you can kill things like chaos warriors and chaos knights?

The way I see it, with your list you simply 2nd turn charge your master necromancer with a fast unit (some kind of flying monster or whatever) and then control the magic phase, grind you list down and call it a game. I have thought about using a necromancer master before but they really are just to easy to kill.

meowser
25-06-2012, 14:47
... vargheists are better than crypts, faster, stronger, more attacks, higher ws, skirmished and vampires.

I humbly disagree completely with you. I think Horrors and Guard make for an excellent Anvil and Hammer combo. I think the Vargheists would be redundant with the GG, and not synergize well with them. They just bleed too much CR.

> Ld7 Frenzy on a unit that's losing healing potential to supposedly be free of the need to be in the general's
> Cost 120% more
> MUCH lower survivability (T4; no regen)
> skirmish? Horrors laugh off pretty much any shooting except a Flaming Hellblaster.


... Varghulfs are actually pretty good! ... what about Terrorgheists so you can kill things like chaos warriors and chaos knights?


I agree with you here. I think Varghulfs are just the bee's knees. Incredibly maneuverable and reliable (except for when it comes to redirecting charge after someone flees when you aren't in the general's bubble [which is often the way i run them]). Versatile in that they are great for stomping infantry, and also a decent can opener for knights. Excellent support unit since they don't bleed CR all over the place like Vargheists, which I'm very wary of.

Terrorgheists take a lot more finesse (and skill at rolling 6 on regen vs cannonballs) to use effectively, and are a much bigger investment. I do agree having 1 or 2 banshees would be very effective for dealing with Knights, KFC, etc... Maybe swap out the Wraith for a Banshee?



... The way I see it, with your list you simply 2nd turn charge your master necromancer with a fast unit (some kind of flying monster or whatever) and then control the magic phase, grind you list down and call it a game. I have thought about using a necromancer master before but they really are just to easy to kill.

Well hopefully OP will learn how to use his chaff effectively to block such obvious attempts. Easily done with 3x hosts; 2x dogs (and not to mention the possibility of raise dead; movement miasma from cursed book, etc...). There are also these things called buildings they can hide in :P

EcoWarrior
25-06-2012, 15:12
Master Necromancer
1 Master Necromancer, (General; Master of the Dead; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Lore of the Vampires

Necromancer
1 Necromancer,
1 Lore of the Vampires

1 Cairn Wraith,

Spirit Host
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)
1 Spirit Host, (Ethereal; Undead)

Skeleton Warriors
36 Skeleton Warriors, (Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead)
1 Screaming Banner

Zombie Horde A
40 Zombies, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std;
Zombie Horde C
20 Zombies, Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves,
Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves,

Grave Guard
30 Grave Guard, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Great Weapon;

Crypt Horrors
9 Crypt Horrors,

Ive trimmed down were i thought i can if i must. I am at 1822 points with this leaving me 178pts to play with. I could add a banshee and take out the wraith but only have 142 pts left.
I think i'd be more inclined to take black coach thank varghulf tbh because of the ward save and thanks to someone clearing it up for me that they dont siphon PD (stupid me). I know i'd be missing out on thunderstomp but i'd be gaining impact hits T6 armor and ward but im still unsure on which one would support my units better since i have never used either of them. Any suggestions on what i should do with my remaining points if i made this change?

Edit:
I supose i could get rid of 1 spirit host unit if i need the points so i would have 223 points instead

logan054
25-06-2012, 20:31
I humbly disagree completely with you. I think Horrors and Guard make for an excellent Anvil and Hammer combo. I think the Vargheists would be redundant with the GG, and not synergize well with them. They just bleed too much CR.

> Ld7 Frenzy on a unit that's losing healing potential to supposedly be free of the need to be in the general's
> Cost 120% more
> MUCH lower survivability (T4; no regen)
> skirmish? Horrors laugh off pretty much any shooting except a Flaming Hellblaster.

However with the list it is only a single hammer unit and everyhing is some kind of anvil or tarpit, you simply cannot rely on a single unit to do all the killing, really the list does not need yet another anvil unit, I'm not saying the Horrors are actually bad units however they have a role which isn't even how the OP is using them (infact if you read his post he said its his other smashing unit, which I would translate as hammer). Ld 7 isn't a issue if you take advantage of the fact they have unlimited reforrms, the T4 is a issue however I think the 4 S5 attacks + S5 stomp attacks out weighs this. The limited healing is down to how you use them, you don't need to send them miles up the board, I would be using them as a counter attack unit.


I agree with you here. I think Varghulfs are just the bee's knees. Incredibly maneuverable and reliable (except for when it comes to redirecting charge after someone flees when you aren't in the general's bubble [which is often the way i run them]). Versatile in that they are great for stomping infantry, and also a decent can opener for knights. Excellent support unit since they don't bleed CR all over the place like Vargheists, which I'm very wary of.

Terrorgheists take a lot more finesse (and skill at rolling 6 on regen vs cannonballs) to use effectively, and are a much bigger investment. I do agree having 1 or 2 banshees would be very effective for dealing with Knights, KFC, etc... Maybe swap out the Wraith for a Banshee?

I use both a terror and a varg in my list, I think they both add something which lists like this is lacking, some real combat punch, it might be more workable if the list had vampires over necromancers. Certainly the banshee would be a better edition to the list, still I'd rather have a vampire over either, decent in combat and providing that extra IoN.


Well hopefully OP will learn how to use his chaff effectively to block such obvious attempts. Easily done with 3x hosts; 2x dogs (and not to mention the possibility of raise dead; movement miasma from cursed book, etc...). There are also these things called buildings they can hide in :P

It is harder in practice to do, especially if someone takes them out on the first turn which isn't hard, then you just have your fast moving model go flying towards the lvl4 wizard, I've done this with my shaggoth before, very effective way of killing lvl4 wizards while also having the combat stats to still atleast draw the combat.

EcoWarrior
25-06-2012, 21:00
It is harder in practice to do, especially if someone takes them out on the first turn which isn't hard, then you just have your fast moving model go flying towards the lvl4 wizard, I've done this with my shaggoth before, very effective way of killing lvl4 wizards while also having the combat stats to still atleast draw the combat.
If you manage to take out the chaff and get to the mage in the bunker behind the rest of my army on first turn then sir you deserve a medal.

I have to disagre with you logan, point for value wise i will take crypt horrors over vargheists anyday. S3 wounding you on 5's no saves is just rubbish for their points imo. All those poison hits can even out the amount of damage crypt horrors do compared to vargheists aswell. You say you use a terror aswell, i'd prefer a varghulf over them anyday just because of the better regen save and smaller base also not large target. What do you do when you get 20ish shots (any strength) hitting you pretty easy and baisically wounding you on 6's get a tiny bit of luck. you lose 225 points pretty fast, if you dont lose it to shooting you will lose them in combat because of its low In3 to a few lucky 6's thus making death shriek less effective). I would be ,more inclined to take them if they had a better save. The base size is to big aswell you wil get hordes of rubbish just slapping you silly because of the amount of rank and file attacks they get against you.

Back to my question...
Does any1 have any ideas what i could do with my spare points?

logan054
25-06-2012, 21:25
The thing is you comparing totally different units with totally different roles and trying to say one is better than the other with is complete nonsense really. The Terror is really a moving warmchine that can fight in combat, it excellent at what it does, it kills small elite units with high armour saves without getting bogged into combat, its simply not a combat monster and you shouldn't be using it as such, used mine against my mate hydra, knocked it down to a single wound on turn one, he was not impressed, people using knight buses? thats cool, just chase them round with the terror, it really is rather annoying. The varghulf on the other hand is something you use as a flanker, if you against a gunline and through cleaver use of terrain I would be using that to take out enemy long range support. I just can't see how anyone could even try and compare these units and say one is better than the other, I find with using both that someone with cannons is going to be trying to take out my varghulf as that is the model that is going to be speeding up the board to kill his cannons and thus allow my Terror to do its job. If they go after the terror then Varg will be in position to take out the cannons. I3 also isn't low, I1 and 2 are low, 3 is average (and actually good for a large monster), 4 is good, 5 is excellent. If people are throwing bucket loads of shooting at your terror then they are not shooting at other targets which means your units are either getting larger without much opposition or you can use other spells rather than spending your magic phase trying to maintain your unit numbers.

Most armies have some kind of way of dealing with mage bunkers, be it fast moving units, mega deasth spells or sniping the character, the only speed in the list is going to be busy trying to road block units.

Crypt horrors are very different to vargheists and I think you are ignoring the fact they do not need to stay by the general nor do they crumble when he dies as they are vampires, this is part of why they are more expensive, the only time they are going to be bleeding CR is if you try a frontal assault on a unit! why would you even do this? its a support unit! The horrors on the other hand are going to have to stick close to the general so you can move them at full speed which restricts how you can use them, they are a good unit but they are simply something you use to hold units in position why you setup a flank charge with one of your hammer units.

As for your points, I would tempted to add either a vampire or a varghulf, coach is pretty good once it gets going, its just getting it going (so to speak).

EcoWarrior
26-06-2012, 00:25
Master Necromancer
1 Master Necromancer, (General; Master of the Dead; Level 4 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Undead)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Talisman of Preservation
1 Lore of the Vampires

Skeleton Warriors
40 Skeleton Warriors, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std;
Zombie Horde
45 Zombies, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std;
Zombie Horde
20 Zombies, Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Undead)

Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves,
5 Dire Wolves,

Grave Guard
28 Grave Guard, Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Great Weapon;
Banner of Barrows

8 Crypt Horrors,
4 Vargheists
Black Coach

There are 2 options left for me to take they are having...
1) Level1 fire vamp no equipment for the fireball (regen + ranged stuff in building or any low armorsave unit)
2) level1 necro to help with an extra IoN, x1 spirit host to run along side the black coach, 25 points left over which i can make my GG up to 30 again for get magic items for the necro

I took into consideration what you said about how to use the vargheists and im gonna try and use them with crypt horrors as anvil (faster than any other none mounted unit) and have them flank for the S5 attacks with stomp. I can also use crypt horrors to block their LoS to a unit i dont want them to frenzy into if i must.
I know i dont have as much chaff now but i figure a few turns of siphoning and the black coach can take care of most monsters with luck, if i dont feel like risking it i can take the 1 necro 1 spirit host option for that extra unit that will hold up thier monsters or take some unwanted magic damage away from my other units so they have 1 more turn to try get into combat; 1 is never as good as 2 or 3 but with the black coach i think it will make up for the other 2.
I dropped the screaming banner and the banshee/wraith hero to squeeze in points for more hard hitting units rather than relying on that chance they fail the fear test.

What do you guys think now ?

logan054
26-06-2012, 01:11
When I looked at running a necro master I was going to take two vampires, I think the list is a lot better, have you considered baby manfred? he will actually give you a very strong magic phase while in combat while providing a little extra punch to a unit, having a lore master with lore of vampires is nice, I found being able to cast curse of years twice a turn horrible for my opponent.

remember with the vargs they don't need screens, you can just reform so they can't see anything, I have heard of the flying backwards nonsense as well

EcoWarrior
26-06-2012, 08:23
for 2k i was trying not to go so heavy on characters and more to overwealm in numbers and units because especially with vamps you get pricey after a while. i will definatl prefer to run vamps im just doing this for points and effectivness. If i take out one thing in my list i need something else that can do its job for the same price or cheaper, if not i need to change my tactics completly with the list.
Have you tried beasts with vamnpires for wildform? or for that matter any other lores? I allways find a level 1/2 fire mage goes a long way when you dont have much/any shooting in your army and im just wondering if you think there are other routes of magic i could go down.

logan054
26-06-2012, 09:18
having a cheap lord and a baby manfred isn't character heavy, not for vampires, he's 200pts! vampires rely on characters a lot more than other armies, keep in mind you don't need so many zombies to begin with, you can create them.

beasts is a bit meh, wild form is nice but many of the other spells don't really help, lore of light could be nice

EcoWarrior
26-06-2012, 10:04
the only reason my zombies are at 40 is because im trying to get the soft cap 500pts on core on the dot. i could swap some out for more skeletons i gues but i can still make more of them to, i thought having it start at 40 will let me have enough zombies to atleast last 1 round of combat if my magic phase goes to ****.
I would only be relying on the signature spell of the lore i choose because he will be level1/2 depending on how many points i can free up. I wont leave it to chance of rolling the spell or spells that i want with a low level. I gues baby manfred wouldent be a bad idea instead of my necro lord it would free up 70 odd points but then i really want my general to have a ward save of some kind considering if he does get targeted he has a chance to survive.

logan054
26-06-2012, 12:32
You really want your core as close to 500pts as you can, its so terrible you don't want to be spending more points than you need to. I would personally have the necromancer Master and manfred the acolyte in the list rather than one or the other, your not playing Warriors of chaos who can rely on the core troops to actually do something.

EcoWarrior
26-06-2012, 15:05
I'm really tempted with the vampire lord / fire synergy because you throw alot of dice at a fireball which is devastating to T3 infantry, if you IF all you need to do is get one spell off from your vampire lore and heal your fire mage back up, rinse and repeat for killing elite infantry like high elves/daemons because of the low toughness and or to get rid of those bastards hiding in a building picking off some troops. I was considering taking a level 2 just because the extra +2 to cast is not bad and by the off chance i get flaming sword, it will make my army more effective in combat. what do you guys think ?

logan054
26-06-2012, 19:47
flaming sword of grave guard would be very nasty against anything T4, especially if you can cast van hals dance as well