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Dark_Mage99
25-06-2012, 21:03
The BRB says a model with WS 0 can't defend itself in combat, and is hit automatically.

But does that mean they can't attack? I would presume they wouldn't be able to hit. It is possible that this falls under the "inabilty to defend itelf" as attacking is indeed a form of defending yourself - but then I suppose it's possible to argue it both ways.

How do you play it?

theunwantedbeing
25-06-2012, 21:23
If you get ws0 through the mark of nurgle/fear interactions.....you houserule a "to a minimum of 1" clause in there to stop it happening.

If you get it through some other means, you simply cannot attack.

Sucks I know but it is so absurdly rare and gets rid of silly(and far less rare) quirks like inanimate chariots getting an attack.

A model with bs0 isn't allowed to shoot even with a missile weapon afterall.
Why should a ws0 model be allowed to attack? A chariot for example can easily get frenzy, why should it be allowed to strike?

GW could really do with giving this an Errata/FAQ.
They won't of course but they need to.

Hinaelark
26-06-2012, 16:25
It can also be done with the vampire counts coven throne and battle of wills. In the one game that it's happened thus far, we went with the models are hit automatically and only hit with their attacks on a 6 as we couldn't find anywhere that it said they no longer get their attacks.

AntaresCD
26-06-2012, 17:16
In the Characteristics of Zero section on page 4 of the BRB it says, "Some creatures have been given a value of '0'... for certain characteristics, which means that they have no ability whatsoever in that skill. This usually applies to creatures unable to use missle weapons, so they have BS0 or BS-, but it might equally well apply to other characteristics too." While it does not explicitly say that WS0 means you don't get to attack, it would be fair to say the implication and example set by BS0 would say that a WS of 0 cannot attack as they have "no skill" in close combat (for whatever reason).

The reason the next paragraph says, "if any object or creature has a Weapon Skill of 0 then it is unable to defend itself in close combat, and any blows struck against it will therefore automatically hit," is because for close combat, your ability to hit is determined by comparing your WS to your target's, which is not the norm for characteristics (shooting, for example, is your BS modified by any relevant modifiers).

So I would say that while this causes confusion because they didn't explicitly say WS0 means no attacks (or auto misses), they set the precedent for it and made sure they covered the reverse situation (attacking a WS0 target) since a characteristic of 0 in a target is relevant in that case. In other words, the first paragraph covered what happens when you try to do something that is based on a characteristic that you have a 0 in (namely, you can't do it) and the second paragraph covers the one edge case where your target has a characteristic of 0 and it is relevant (namely attacking a WS0 target).

uSea
26-06-2012, 22:11
It can also be done with the vampire counts coven throne and battle of wills. In the one game that it's happened thus far, we went with the models are hit automatically and only hit with their attacks on a 6 as we couldn't find anywhere that it said they no longer get their attacks.

This is correct. Check page 50 of the Big Rule Book. "Roll a D6 for each Attack. Compare the Weapon Skill of the attacker and the defender to determine the score required to hit." Weapon Skill is not even looked at until the dice have been rolled, so a WS of 0 does not stop the model from making Attacks so long as it has an Attacks characteristic.

Note that for Close Combat, "Sometimes modifers apply to these rolls, but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a natural dice score of 1 always misses."
Not only is there is no such provision for shooting attacks, but the rules state that a shot can be so hard that it is impossible (if it required a 10 or more To Hit).

AntaresCD
26-06-2012, 22:51
This is correct. Check page 50 of the Big Rule Book. "Roll a D6 for each Attack. Compare the Weapon Skill of the attacker and the defender to determine the score required to hit." Weapon Skill is not even looked at until the dice have been rolled, so a WS of 0 does not stop the model from making Attacks so long as it has an Attacks characteristic.

Note that for Close Combat, "Sometimes modifers apply to these rolls, but a natural dice score of 6 always hits and a natural dice score of 1 always misses."
Not only is there is no such provision for shooting attacks, but the rules state that a shot can be so hard that it is impossible (if it required a 10 or more To Hit).

While true, if the intention was for WS0 to automtically miss then the chart wouldn't be necessary either. That would trump the chart like everything else that does such things automatically and would have the same affect as saying they can't attack. It's unclear. WS0 isn't on the to hit charts either so you can't really go by those. All you have are those short paragraphs on characteristics of 0. The way many read them, myself included, is that a WS0 means you effectively can't attack, whether you want to resolve that as you don't swing or you automatically miss is up to you. Much in the same way the reasoning in the shooting chapters mentions that difficulties at 10 or above or when only part of a unit are in range of the target that you automatically miss, but whether or not they actually all loosed their shots is really a fluff thing (I believe the example was elves are disciplined so those who can't hit save their ammo but the goblins just all fire and many miss).

shakedown47
27-06-2012, 13:58
This is one of the rare things in the book that does actually require a FAQ or errata and can't be easily reasoned through. It hasn't come up in our play group, but I would think that we would play it as the model not being able to make attacks since that is the first assumption most people would arrive at due to the BRB passage about characteristics of 0. The book isn't explicit either way, but does state that all close combat rolls of 6 automatically hit, so it's just up to you and your opponent to quickly decide whether or not attacks can be made.

darheresy
27-06-2012, 16:09
Under the ROLL TO HIT it says you roll a D6 for each attack and then compare Weapon skill of the attacker and the defender. WS0 is not on the chart so that can not be applied. In the last paragraf it says that a natural 6 always hit and that a 1 always misses. So it is the ATTACK characteristic that is of interest here. You roll for your attacks and a 6 is a hit.

theunwantedbeing
27-06-2012, 16:57
Under the ROLL TO HIT it says you roll a D6 for each attack and then compare Weapon skill of the attacker and the defender. WS0 is not on the chart so that can not be applied. In the last paragraf it says that a natural 6 always hit and that a 1 always misses. So it is the ATTACK characteristic that is of interest here. You roll for your attacks and a 6 is a hit.

I take it you would allow a chariot of khorne to have a single attack while frenzied which hits on a 6 then?

BlackPawl
27-06-2012, 18:14
I would also assume that a unit with WS 0 can not attack at all, but the question still stands and a FAQ would be good. Also what happened when a unit get Ini 0 ...

Scalebug
27-06-2012, 18:44
Also what happened when a unit get Ini 0 ...

They strike after models with Initiative 1... and if they have to test because of something they automatically fail

(p.10, BRB)

Jerubaal
28-06-2012, 11:18
If the BRB 'To Hit' chart has no WS0 for an attacker, then there is no way the model can hit anything - not even on a 6. Even if they roll dice, there is nothing to look up on the chart...
On the other hand, if the BRB does include WS0 for an attacker, it suggests they can use it 'to hit'.

I don't have the BRB on me. I'm at work. Shhh!

darheresy
28-06-2012, 18:14
I take it you would allow a chariot of khorne to have a single attack while frenzied which hits on a 6 then?

I would assume that the chariot is a dead thing that could not have frenzy, for the reason that it is silly and dont make sense, but if you play the game that way be my guest.

It still says that you roll your number of attacks and that a 6 is always a hit and a 1 is always a miss. It does not say anywhere that a model who has WS0 can not strike.

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2012, 18:21
I would assume that the chariot is a dead thing that could not have frenzy, for the reason that it is silly and dont make sense, but if you play the game that way be my guest.
Undead are dead things, dwarf gyrocopters are silly and don't make any sense.


It still says that you roll your number of attacks and that a 6 is always a hit and a 1 is always a miss. It does not say anywhere that a model who has WS0 can not strike.

So by the letter of the rules you say my chariot should get an attack, but you aren't allowing it to?

Is this better than house ruling a clause into such things to prevent them ever occurring?
Personally, I'de say no but what would you say?

darheresy
28-06-2012, 20:56
Undead used to be alive and gyrocopters are awesome.

I still belevie that the mark of khorne was meant for the warrior only. Not the mounts for a chaos knight and not the chariot or the mounts for the chaos chariot but I know people play it differently in some gaming groups. I you wish for your chariot to have an extra attack the rules are not in your way. There are many times you play warhammer and you are not exactly sure how to solve every situation. Just because its silly for a chariot to have an attack does not mean that ALL units in the entire game could not attack if they had WS0. Its not enough to disregard that a to hit roll always hit on a 6.

Scalebug
28-06-2012, 21:19
It still says that you roll your number of attacks and that a 6 is always a hit and a 1 is always a miss. It does not say anywhere that a model who has WS0 can not strike.

It doesn't have to; This is a game, there is no rules for something with WS0 attacking, because you cannot put it into the chart of WS vs WS to find the needed score, so it cannot be done. That you always hit on a '6' will not come into play, as you are not even getting to the step of rolling any dice.

Game, people. Rules. If it cannot be done by the rules, it cannot be done in the game. Your khornate chariot is an angry piece of wood and dark metal, with 1 attack, but it cannot use it, as it has WS1. Unless it also get a bonus to WS (Which can be done, Speed of Light cast on it...)

All in all, instead of questioning what happens, test what happens by following the rules. If it can be done, it can be done.

There are rules for what a characteristic of 0 does in some situation, e.g. that models with WS 0 are automatically hit is needed to be pointed out, otherwise it would work defensibly as well (your opponent being unable to put their WS 1-10 against your 0), but generally, just attempt to use it and you will see if it can be done or not.

M 0 doesn't make you entirely immobile, unless you have a rule in addition to that stat value telling you so. You will be able to "move" or march a total of 0", but you can still flee (2D6"), or even charge (2D6+0").
WS 0 means you cannot attack, as you cannot put it into the chart, and you are automatically hit, becase a rule tells you that happen.
BS 0 would look like you are needing a 7 (6 and then a 4+) to hit, but that is only if you see it as being a general formula of 7-BS being the score needed to hit, which it actually isn't, it is also a chart, lacking the allowance to put "0" in it, so no shooting for you.
S 0 means you are unable to wound things, by the same token, no line in the chart, but that doesn't matter as the rules also tells you you are dead at S 0...
T 0 Same thing...
I 0, you would strike after people with I 1, otherwise nothing special...
W 0. Well, you are dead. The rules specifically tells you so, if it wasn't obvious.
A 0 will dictate how many dice you get to roll with to attack, so none, but is otherwise not actually stopping you from striking (if you get a bonus from something, but then you are not technically at A 0 anyway).
Ld 0... you invoke "the snake-eyes always passing", as the part of you don't even get to roll the dice before you autofail is part of the "other" characteristic test rule on p.10, Ld-test peing a passage of its own, without this.

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2012, 21:29
I still belevie that the mark of khorne was meant for the warrior only. Not the mounts for a chaos knight and not the chariot or the mounts for the chaos chariot but I know people play it differently in some gaming groups. I you wish for your chariot to have an extra attack the rules are not in your way. There are many times you play warhammer and you are not exactly sure how to solve every situation. Just because its silly for a chariot to have an attack does not mean that ALL units in the entire game could not attack if they had WS0. Its not enough to disregard that a to hit roll always hit on a 6.

Okay, I still don't think you are quite getting what I am saying.
Ignore the khorne bit, the chariot has frenzy (I picked khorne as that was the first one that sprung to mind)
The chariot now has Ws0 (which it had all the time) and At1.

So my question was as follows:
Do you
A) just insert a "to a minimum of 1" clause in those weapon skill reducing effects and not allow ws0 to attack anything
b) allow ws0 to attack hitting on a 6, and then you have to make up your own house rule that things like chariots don't get an attack

I'de like to point out that I do not want chariots to get an attack.
I agree with you on that much, however I differ on how I think the best way to achieve this is.

darheresy
28-06-2012, 22:47
Okay, I still don't think you are quite getting what I am saying.
Ignore the khorne bit, the chariot has frenzy (I picked khorne as that was the first one that sprung to mind)
The chariot now has Ws0 (which it had all the time) and At1.

So my question was as follows:
Do you
A) just insert a "to a minimum of 1" clause in those weapon skill reducing effects and not allow ws0 to attack anything
b) allow ws0 to attack hitting on a 6, and then you have to make up your own house rule that things like chariots don't get an attack

I'de like to point out that I do not want chariots to get an attack.
I agree with you on that much, however I differ on how I think the best way to achieve this is.

I would have to go with b. The rules are clear to me that you roll your number of attacks first and then consult the chart. Many special rules are hard to use in the situations where they are not meant to be. A Giant with frenzy for example. How does that work? Frenzy on a Fanatic or Mangler squig? Many situations are not coverd in the rules and there are more than one way to play the game. I just like to share my point of view and how I see the rules.

So for me, I will roll my attacks like it says in the rules and will not let a chariot (except the crew and in some cases the horses) get to use frenzy, hatred, ASF or any other special rule that does not fit. A balance between rules and what makes sense is the way to go as far as I am concerned.

theunwantedbeing
28-06-2012, 23:18
Giant's don't attack normally so having frenzy doesn't help them in terms of adding attacks.
Same deal for fanatics and mangler squigs.

darheresy
29-06-2012, 09:39
Giant's don't attack normally so having frenzy doesn't help them in terms of adding attacks.
Same deal for fanatics and mangler squigs.

Most probably but there is nothing in the rules to support your claim. That's what I mean that there is more then one way to use the rules. Some situations are clear but many others are not. Many times when I play situations occur that are not written out in the rulebook and we apply the golden rule. This forum is more to see if you missed something and decide what way you whish to take the game. There is no "one universal truth" in warhammer.

Scalebug
29-06-2012, 10:38
Yes there is, what the unwantedbeing said could for clarity had been done with a quote;

"Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures..." (Warriors of chaos, p.65, because that was the book I had within reach)

That there is "no universal truth in warhammer" might be true, but it doesn't automatically mean everyone and his dog's opinion and interpretation of the rules is correct...

And in this case; you are wrong. You are free to play however you like, but don't argue that you have a valid interpretation of the rules in the book, because you don't.

GodlessM
29-06-2012, 11:07
It can also be done with the vampire counts coven throne and battle of wills. In the one game that it's happened thus far, we went with the models are hit automatically and only hit with their attacks on a 6 as we couldn't find anywhere that it said they no longer get their attacks.

That's how our group have played it as well. It can happen in the Loot and Pillage scenario too.

darheresy
30-06-2012, 06:42
Yes there is, what the unwantedbeing said could for clarity had been done with a quote;

"Giants do not attack in the same way as other creatures..." (Warriors of chaos, p.65, because that was the book I had within reach)

That there is "no universal truth in warhammer" might be true, but it doesn't automatically mean everyone and his dog's opinion and interpretation of the rules is correct...

And in this case; you are wrong. You are free to play however you like, but don't argue that you have a valid interpretation of the rules in the book, because you don't.

Still does not say the giant cannot have frenzy.

True and that is what this forum is for. So you can see what other people think and get the interpertation that follows the rules the best and makes the most sense.

I could be wrong but as I said before it says in the rulebook that you roll your number of attacks and consult the chart afterwards. And later on they explain that a 6 is always a hit. To say that WS0 prevents them from rolling their attacks is nowhere to be found. That is your interpertation of the rules and I don't agree.

AMWOOD co
01-07-2012, 01:15
Still does not say the giant cannot have frenzy.

True, the giant can have Frenzy. He would gain Berserk Rage and Immune to Psychology but everything else would be useless.


True and that is what this forum is for. So you can see what other people think and get the interpertation that follows the rules the best and makes the most sense.

I could be wrong but as I said before it says in the rulebook that you roll your number of attacks and consult the chart afterwards. And later on they explain that a 6 is always a hit. To say that WS0 prevents them from rolling their attacks is nowhere to be found. That is your interpertation of the rules and I don't agree.

Valid, but circular. You are using the same argument you used back on post 8, which theunwantedbeing pointed out a flaw for (post 9, Frenzying Chariots) and you decided to argue special pleading (ie. it works for everything except that, post 13) without support from the rules. Now you go back to the original argument, meaning you've come full circle without refuting the point.

So, I would ask, is there any reason to reject theunwantedbeings interpretation (post 2) based on an internal inconsistency? That is, does his method lead to an absurdity or contradiction?

darheresy
02-07-2012, 17:49
Valid, but circular. You are using the same argument you used back on post 8, which theunwantedbeing pointed out a flaw for (post 9, Frenzying Chariots) and you decided to argue special pleading (ie. it works for everything except that, post 13) without support from the rules. Now you go back to the original argument, meaning you've come full circle without refuting the point.

So, I would ask, is there any reason to reject theunwantedbeings interpretation (post 2) based on an internal inconsistency? That is, does his method lead to an absurdity or contradiction?

He is giving his houseruling to the problem to get away from problems like the chariot and my houserule is different. "If a statline do not have a value in a characteristic it can never have one." So if the chariot have "-" in Attack and WS it does not matter if it get frenzy or speed of light since it can not gain Attacks or Weaponskill. This way we avoid absurd things like chariots with frenzyattacks and also if you read the book it has equipment halberd, so if it would get an attack it would have strenght 6 since it is wielding a halberd and also do the horses so they would have strenght 5. :cheese:

That way normal units can still use the rules how I see them and still hit on 6's while fighting with WS0. But as I said, Everyone see the game differently and if it makes sense with chariots that fights in a frenzy with it's halberd then according to the rules there is nothing that prevents it. But I see it more that it cannot happen but normal units in extreme fear and drenched in gore from a nurgle unit still wields there weapon in panic and just maybe they hit something.

Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.

AntaresCD
02-07-2012, 18:01
Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.
Your primary assumption in this is that with WS0 you still roll to attack. As a number of us have stated, there are grounds to state that you don't even roll (either no attacks allowed or you automatically miss), in which case the clause that a natural 6 always hits is irrelevant as there was no roll. And before you state you always roll to attack, no you don't, as there are plenty of attacks in close combat that can automatically hit (and some rare situations that automatically miss) which bypasses the need to roll. There is further precedent that when a roll is bypassed due to an "automatic" (see Poisoned Attacks and Killing Blow special rules for examples) that a rule that refers to the natural die roll is bypassed as well.

Scalebug
02-07-2012, 18:03
. It is just how you see the rules.


...only that it happens to be the correct one...

You are perfectly entitled to have house-rules, nobody (but your opponent in an actual game not agreeing with them) is stopping you, but you have to understand that they are not what the rulebook says. It is simple as that.

The second thing you have to understand is that whenever someone asks a rules question on a forum like this, they are generally interested in getting an answer in accordance to what they rules say, Random Q Randomson's house-rules used in his gaming group on the other side of the planet is more often than not of no interest.

Your right to believe and say anything does not make anything you believe or say right.

darheresy
02-07-2012, 19:02
Sorry. Just forget it. I tried to take the houserule of theunwantedbeing and replace it with my own that solved the same problem to show more then one way and also to answer AMWOOD co. Maybe I failed. Have nothing to do with the stated question.

I played it like the people in post 3,5 and 22 for the same reason they do. That is how we saw it best.

It can be read that WS0 don't get attacks but it can be read the other way to.

theunwantedbeing
02-07-2012, 19:37
I agree that your house rule also works.
So we now have two house rules to suggest to other people

Ws0 cannot attack
-insert a "to a minimum of 1" clause to prevent most of the ws0 unable to attack issues

Ws0 can attack
-do not allow stats of - to be increased

Simple enough.

AMWOOD co
02-07-2012, 23:38
Nothing in the rules says that units with WS0 cannot strike but something says they can since you roll your attacks. I can see why some people say that it's not on the chart so they should not be able to hit. It is just how you see the rules.

This doesn't really address the issue fully as theunwantedbeing did address this (The whole Stat of 0 issue - no WS means no ability to hit in close combat). Still, I do agree that it isn't spelled out vertbatim.


"If a statline do not have a value in a characteristic it can never have one." So if the chariot have "-" in Attack and WS it does not matter if it get frenzy or speed of light since it can not gain Attacks or Weaponskill. This way we avoid absurd things like chariots with frenzyattacks and also if you read the book it has equipment halberd, so if it would get an attack it would have strenght 6 since it is wielding a halberd and also do the horses so they would have strenght 5. :cheese:

Well, the absurdity that the chariot body or horses wielding a halberd aside, the idea of not allowing stats that are at 0 (printed) to increase is a good one. Thanks for that.