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dala_karn
28-06-2012, 00:23
hey all,

back when 8th edition for fantasy came out, i noticed that the average points cost in standard games increased from 1500pts - 2000pts to 2500pts -3000pts (at least where i live/game) most likely due to the benefits from running large regiments. so with sixth edition coming out, do you think the same will happen for 40K with the inclusion of allies and fortifications in the FOC. for me the average 40K game is 1000pts - 1750pts so i would expect it to go more to 1500pts -2500pts.

what do you guys think?

jifel
28-06-2012, 00:53
Right now my local meta is stuck at 1850, but most of us are now looking at 2000 points, maybe even more.

Dr.Clock
28-06-2012, 00:58
I tend to roll with at least 2000. But, with allies as a possibility, I expect to be doing 2500+ pretty much exclusively. I wouldn't be surprised if 2000 becomes the standard, especially where allies are frequently taken.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

LonelyPath
28-06-2012, 01:10
My groups I play with vary from 1500 - 2000 and I doubt that will change in the new edition, though some might try out 2000 more, though likely switch back to a lower points level again.

Nurgling Chieftain
28-06-2012, 01:52
I have a suspicion that 1999 is going to become popular. :p

druchii
28-06-2012, 03:18
I have a suspicion that 1999 is going to become popular. :p

This CAN'T have anything to do with the double FOC chart...:angel:

d

althathir
28-06-2012, 03:38
I actually think the ally rules might keep the game size smaller. Just cause it'll encourage multiple small armies (thats right MSA :D). I could also see Fortifications leading to smaller games because transporting them would be a pain. So I think 1500-1850 is gonna stay the standard.

ehlijen
28-06-2012, 03:48
Around here 1k to 1.5k is the most common. And with the gaming store I frequent offering mostly 4*4 tables, I don't see much potential for allied games happening there.
On my own table, 2k isn't a problem, and I intend to give the allies rules a try before tossing them unread.

chromedog
28-06-2012, 04:38
Most of my club games were 2000pts when every other tournament used 1750-1850 (my club runs a 2000pt tourney every year, as well as a doubles 2x1000pt tourney).

I stopped playing the game, but the meta might increase to 2000 as that's when the "Add FOC" steps in. Up to 1999 one FOC, no allies, afaik.

TrangleC
28-06-2012, 05:21
In my group (I haven't played for a long time and most of the guys who I felt comfortable calling "my gaming group" have switched to Warmachine or quit gaming altogether, so calling it that feels wrong, but for the sake of argument...) they mostly play little 8 man tournaments. 2000 Points would be way too big for that. It is hard enough to cram three 1750 point games and a lunch break into the time the gaming shop is open on Saturdays.

But it seems pretty obvious that GW wants you to play bigger with those rules for allies, two FOCs and buyable terrain. Some people have been seeing this trend for a long time, since back then when GW canceled the Games Day tournament while pushing the 'Ard Boyz tournament (2500 points) in 2008 or 2009 or so and when the Space Wolves codex came out and it became clear that armies got bigger even within smaller point limits.

Stonerhino
28-06-2012, 05:33
I have a suspicion that 1999 is going to become popular. :pYa, I think this edition might be the first time I step my points down, 2,000 to 1,999. And it makes sence because I rarely actually hit 2,000 even anyways.

DeviantApostle
28-06-2012, 05:42
Oh, come on, think of the poor 'nid players!

Radium
28-06-2012, 09:13
I think that with the increased range on EVERYTHING the table will start even smaller than it already does, and with 2000+ pts on each side it just won't work on 6'x4'. For the best game experience I think the points average should go down a bit, not up. Knowing the internet (and it seems mostly American players - no offence to any Americans here, but you guys seem to play at the 2000-2500 mark a lot) it'll go up to maximise the benefit of the second FOC. Taking the ridiculousness of Guard and GK to a whole new level.

mughi3
28-06-2012, 09:27
We played at 1850 back in 3rd editon and have been rolling 2k since 4th i expect that our games will now jump to 2,500 easily given all the new stuff you can add to your armies.

lanrak
28-06-2012, 10:10
The limit on PV is only fixed on how many minatures you can cram on the offical RoB board.

This becomes the 'official minumum PV for armies.'

Remember GW plc just want you to buy lots of over priced plastic from them.They have little concern for what you do after this point...;)

Nymie_the_Pooh
28-06-2012, 10:22
Fantasy introduced things like horde formations combined with winds of magic that balance out better at the higher point levels. The only rumours I have read so far that could lend to an increased point level by default in 40K all deal with the FOC. Namely being able to fill two FOCs at 2000 points as well as the addition of fortifications and the allies rumours.

Fear Ghoul
28-06-2012, 10:33
We nearly always play 1500 pts, and I see no reason why this should change when 6th edition comes along.

andyc
28-06-2012, 10:56
I think as 6th edition plays faster we will go from 1750 to 1999. People who want to try allies, flyers, and fortifications will push the limit up. Less cover saves and wound allocation changes will mean larger units too.

Bunnahabhain
28-06-2012, 11:41
, but you guys seem to play at the 2000-2500 mark a lot) it'll go up to maximise the benefit of the second FOC. Taking the ridiculousness of Guard and GK to a whole new level.

I disagree. You've got totally wrong end of the stick there. Guard and GKs, due to fitting lots in a slot, currently do well at higher points values as the FOC is less of a limit to them. Many of the forces that do badly at high points have run out of useful slots.

The second FOC adds a marginal benefit to the guard- still only one elite slot worth having, and you might be able to de-squadron something in fast or heavy. If we compare that to say, Eldar, they just got twice as many of their precious Elites and heavy slots, which will help no end, as will access to more of their support HQs. Same for Orks.

malisteen
28-06-2012, 11:48
I barely have time to squeeze 1k to 1.5k games into my schedule as it is. The new 'narrative' rule set sounds fun, but it also sounds like it'll make the game take longer to play. I'll have a hard time keeping my pick up games at their current size. Larger games, inherently requiring more time to set up, move, and put away models, are entirely out of the question.

Fenrisian Ale
28-06-2012, 12:08
I think there are two aspects to this.

1/ The average points cost of a game goes up because people field more models, possibly due to the added value of adding allies. I think this is unlikely as the mechanics of 40k still means that people have to move models on an individual basis, and a large number of individual model dice rolls. this will just make the games take much longer and today's youth don't seam to have the patience for that.

2/ The cost per model increases across the board. Although this is unlikely to happen I like this idea. When I left "the hobby" back in 2nd, 3rd edition I remember points per model costs being much higher. I remember a squad of five aspect warriors being in the 200-300 points bracket. This allowed for a much more granular points system, and it was much rarer for two pieces of wargear to be the same value. Personally I liked this as it allowed the numbers to sound bigger (5000 points games were common place) also it was easier to balance individual models. Take for example troops, I notice most are valued between 15-19 points per model which makes every point plus or minus matters a great deal when determining their worth. however, if the same troops were valued between 30-38 points for example each point would be half as significant, and GW could more effectively balance comparable troops. In fact, personally I'd like to take this to the extreme, and have the average points value for a game be 40,000 points which would make the troops range 300-380 points per model. However I suspect GW may be worried that the maths would be too much :P

malisteen
28-06-2012, 12:12
Patience, nothing. Many of todays gamers, young or adult, simply don't have the time.

Fenrisian Ale
28-06-2012, 12:24
Patience, nothing. Many of todays gamers, young or adult, simply don't have the time.

Young, don't have the time? you're having a laugh right? I wish I had even a tenth to the free time, my step son has.

As for adults, true, time can be a constraint, however, as someone said to me and I firmly believe. If something is important to you you make the time. After all most adults seam to be able to find the time to do thinks like, spend two hours a night watching the television, or going to the pub for several hours, or even spending the best part of two hours watching 22 overpaid people fighting over a spherical balloon made from leather.

murgel2006
28-06-2012, 13:07
to me there are currently two points values.
most in store Games are 1250-1850 because the kids often do not have more.
games against my friends are kill team or 2000-10000 with apokalypse rules.

So I hope for bigger games in the store (Eldar love bigger games.)

stereynolds
28-06-2012, 14:06
My group used to run 1500pts pretty much exclusively. I tried out a couple of 1750pt games using the American Bay Area Open rules but then 6th started rearing its head so I didn't bother playtesting it anymore for use in club tourneys. I'd olike to see a general rise is games to 1750 or 1850 just to add in those couple of extra units/flyers/Fortifications etc.

LonelyPath
28-06-2012, 14:09
Oh, come on, think of the poor 'nid players!

My regular groups have allowed it for Nids to ally with Guard and Chaos, mostly to allow for Cult lists and give them a extra boost in other areas.

malisteen
28-06-2012, 14:50
Young, don't have the time? you're having a laugh right? I wish I had even a tenth to the free time, my step son has.
Some kids work. Others are dependent on parents with limited schedules. Other are balancing school, sports, and extracurriculars. You can say "you make time for what you want", but if you want to get into college, particularly if you're dependent on financial aid or scholarships to go there, then you make time for what they want.

Just because your step son has so much free time, doesn't mean that's a universal trait of "kids these days". And if GW wants to still have a player base five or ten years from now, they're going to need to put out a game that younger players can actually fit into their lives. Of course, maybe the long term isn't part of GW's strategy, anymore. In 10 years time, 3d printers may have decreased enough in cost and increased enough in quality to have made their entire business model obsolete.

Aryllon
28-06-2012, 17:24
Most of my club games were 2000pts when every other tournament used 1750-1850 (my club runs a 2000pt tourney every year, as well as a doubles 2x1000pt tourney).

I stopped playing the game, but the meta might increase to 2000 as that's when the "Add FOC" steps in. Up to 1999 one FOC, no allies, afaik.

Nah it looks like the double FOC thing is unrelated to allies (so far as I know 'double FOC after 2000pts' has only been posted as a rumour, there's nothing about it in WD or on the GW preview videos).

Allies and fortifications are reportedly part of the standard FOC, getting an additional x1 of each slot apart from troops which is x2 (with one HQ and one troop mandatory). Allied troops can capture objectives, per the WD battle report, although there's no indication if this is only for trusted allies etc.

Doubling a normal FOC after 2000pts would create too many slots for it to count as an ally chart. It might be true that it doubles, but it probably isn't related to allies.

Charistoph
28-06-2012, 17:26
A lot will depend on how well Allies and 2nd FOCs are taken by the big tournaments. That will largely affect things.

And the reason why Fantasy changed was before, you couldn't get a Lord under 2000 points for several editions, now you can, so that 1999 limit was removed. Personally, I think they should have kept something similar with 40K instead of an arbitrary point value that some armies hit just getting out of bed while others need a GPS and scissor lift in order to find it and be effective.